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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 01, 2019, 11:45:47 AM
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I can't claim this little treasure as my own since I picked up on it from reading one of the police interviews with a member of T9. I think it was MO from memory but can't be certain.
Anyway afaik those that entered 5A to carry out checks: GM, KM and MO do not mention any unfamiliar smells eg perfume, aftershave, body odour, cigarettes, alcohol.
I don't know about others but I think I have a strong sense of smell and if I entered the apartment where someone had recently been smelling of the above I may well have detected such. However maybe if the window/shutter was fully open as KM claimed maybe it would diminish.
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I can't claim this little treasure as my own since I picked up on it from reading one of the police interviews with a member of T9. I think it was MO from memory but can't be certain.
Anyway afaik those that entered 5A to carry out checks: GM, KM and MO do not mention any unfamiliar smells eg perfume, aftershave, body odour, cigarettes, alcohol.
I don't know about others but I think I have a strong sense of smell and if I entered the apartment where someone had recently been smelling of the above I may well have detected such. However maybe if the window/shutter was fully open as KM claimed maybe it would diminish.
OK this will be a hard topic to discuss, but have you really tried to prove whether it would be possible to sense this.
I'm not saying it is impossible but IMO humans have a poor sense of smell. There was a program called Master Chef and they had a test where the chefs (contestants) had to identify what they were given while they were blindfolded. Most failed even when they smelt it.
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My missus is able to detect, not only the fact that I've had a wee nip or two, but can also discern the approximate tributary that fed the distillery on Islay.
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My missus is able to detect, not only the fact that I've had a wee nip or two, but can also discern the approximate tributary that fed the distillery on Islay.
There's an episode of Absolutely Fabulous where Edina is legless as a teenager but her Mum never noticed. My mother was like that, but she could smell cigarette smoke at 50 paces. I used to be staggering and slurring and she was asking me if I'd been smoking!
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It was raised on the forum some time ago that the window might have been opened to help dissipate the smell of a substance used to overcome Madeleine.
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It was raised on the forum some time ago that the window might have been opened to help dissipate the smell of a substance used to overcome Madeleine.
But for what reason ? Would an abductor care if there was a lingering smell?
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But for what reason ? Would an abductor care if there was a lingering smell?
Good point. 'Quick, waft away the smell of the chloroform before we make good our escape'.
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But for what reason ? Would an abductor care if there was a lingering smell?
Well if it is in the air he/she they may be overcome themselves and conk out... you silly thing... 8**8:/:
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Good point. 'Quick, waft away the smell of the chloroform before we make good our escape'.
I understand that chloroform dissipates quite rapidly.
And nobody in the T9 reported an odd smell.
There's a puzzle.
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Control Risks
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot." @)(++(*
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
From the witness:
"I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
*%87
Who in the tapas 9 was changing statements?
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Control Risks
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot." @)(++(*
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
From the witness:
"I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
*%87
'Hello, McFly'.
What's the chances of the concentration of simple-minded doctors on one holiday?
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But for what reason ? Would an abductor care if there was a lingering smell?
He/she would, if keen to give the false impression that Madeleine had gone of her own volition. And especially that no one with access to OC keys was involved.
IMO
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He/she would, if keen to give the false impression that Madeleine had gone of her own volition. And especially that no one with access to OC keys was involved.
IMO
Is there any evidence that supports an employee or associate of OC being involved?
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Is there any evidence that supports an employee or associate of OC being involved?
As far as I am aware, none.
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I can't claim this little treasure as my own since I picked up on it from reading one of the police interviews with a member of T9. I think it was MO from memory but can't be certain.
Anyway afaik those that entered 5A to carry out checks: GM, KM and MO do not mention any unfamiliar smells eg perfume, aftershave, body odour, cigarettes, alcohol.
I don't know about others but I think I have a strong sense of smell and if I entered the apartment where someone had recently been smelling of the above I may well have detected such. However maybe if the window/shutter was fully open as KM claimed maybe it would diminish.
Good point Holly, that would appear to rule Smellyman out then.
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He/she would, if keen to give the false impression that Madeleine had gone of her own volition. And especially that no one with access to OC keys was involved.
IMO
The glaringly obvious response to that is that she probably did walk out of her own volition.
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Good point Holly, that would appear to rule Smellyman out then.
Lol it seems that way!
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Although KM is clearly not oblivious to smells since she tells us on P98 of her book:
"Another British woman, in her late 40's or early 50's, turned up on our veranda at one point and kept trying to put her arm round me. She was quite drunk and smelled of cigarettes and I remember willing her to go away".
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As far as I am aware, none.
Present legislation requires evidence to substantiate a person being made an arguido. If I remember correctly at least one of the most recent arguidos in Madeleine's case was in the employment of the holiday company at the time of her disappearance.
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Is there any evidence that supports an employee or associate of OC being involved?
Such evidence has been reported to OG around 2-3 years ago. OG is in a position to look up a crucial piece of information as a litmus test, whilst mere mortals are denied access, so I've no idea how this turned out.
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If it was the person chain smoking in the empty apartment, then Madeleine's room may have stank of cigarettes. Could be why the window was opened. Though I think it was a means of escape if corned in the room.
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If it was the person chain smoking in the empty apartment, then Madeleine's room may have stank of cigarettes. Could be why the window was opened. Though I think it was a means of escape if corned in the room.
That would be a most unusual thing to do IMO. You said ".... the person chain smoking in the empty apartment" Which apartment are you talking about?
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That would be a most unusual thing to do IMO. You said ".... the person chain smoking in the empty apartment" Which apartment are you talking about?
https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/
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If it was the person chain smoking in the empty apartment, then Madeleine's room may have stank of cigarettes. Could be why the window was opened. Though I think it was a means of escape if corned in the room.
OK I understand what you are saying now:
from the link "A PILE of discarded cigarette butts could have been the link to finding missing Madeleine McCann.
A witness claims the discarded butts were found on a shared balcony that had a bird’s eye view of the apartment in Portugal, from where toddler was snatched a few days before her fourth birthday in 2007.
So "If it was the person chain smoking in the empty apartment on the shared balcony, then Madeleine's room may have stank of cigarettes. Could be why the window was opened. Though I think it was a means of escape if cornered in the room." Is that what you meant?
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Although KM is clearly not oblivious to smells since she tells us on P98 of her book:
"Another British woman, in her late 40's or early 50's, turned up on our veranda at one point and kept trying to put her arm round me. She was quite drunk and smelled of cigarettes and I remember willing her to go away".
Was was that? One of the two women drinking most of the day? Jayne Jensen or Anne Wiltshire?
"At about 16.00 we were at the swimming pool bar within the complex. It was at this time that we had a few drinks with Raj Balu, Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire"
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm
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Was was that? One of the two women drinking most of the day? Jayne Jensen or Anne Wiltshire?
"At about 16.00 we were at the swimming pool bar within the complex. It was at this time that we had a few drinks with Raj Balu, Jayne Jensen and Anne Wiltshire"
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NEIL_BERRY.htm
If that really was Jayne Jensen or Anne Wiltshire then Jez Wilkins is really in trouble. For it is claimed he told them that it was the McCann's kid that was missing while they were out searching. Yet he says he never left his apartment.
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OK I understand what you are saying now:
from the link "A PILE of discarded cigarette butts could have been the link to finding missing Madeleine McCann.
A witness claims the discarded butts were found on a shared balcony that had a bird’s eye view of the apartment in Portugal, from where toddler was snatched a few days before her fourth birthday in 2007.
So "If it was the person chain smoking in the empty apartment on the shared balcony, then Madeleine's room may have stank of cigarettes. Could be why the window was opened. Though I think it was a means of escape if cornered in the room." Is that what you meant?
Yes Rob it is what I meant, sorry trying to do too many things at once at the moment.
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Control Risks
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot." @)(++(*
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
From the witness:
"I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
*%87
Who in the tapas 9 was changing statements?
Who in the tapas 9 was changing statements? is this a trick question haha!
for the benefit of Lace who may have missed it:
"I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'."
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https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/
So you don’t think it was someone having a sneaky cigarette because they weren’t allowed to smoke in their apartments?
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Yes Rob it is what I meant, sorry trying to do too many things at once at the moment.
That's alright, I'll help you out.
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Who in the tapas 9 was changing statements? is this a trick question haha!
for the benefit of Lace who may have missed it:
"I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'."
Matt heard a noise LOL - somebody made that up so who? Don't forget - It wasn't a twin rolling over but that invisible abductor flying through the window. *%87
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https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2012/08/09/missing-link-overlooked-in-the-madeleine-mccann-case/
Jesus, that link infected my laptop with Ebola. More pop ups than an abductor in a hedge.
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Matt heard a noise LOL - somebody made that up so who? Don't forget - It wasn't a twin rolling over but that invisible abductor flying through the window. *%87
I'm going to ask for a cite for all of that.
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I'm going to ask for a cite for all of that.
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
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"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
In my theory Madeleine is already awake, as she was woken by the burglars attempting to break in. The sound that Matt heard could well be Madeleine trying to find a place to hide in the kids bedroom. IMO on the far side of the cots could have been a good place.
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?"
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Jesus, that link infected my laptop with Ebola. More pop ups than an abductor in a hedge.
It hasn't infected mine.
It is a very worthy read confirming what I have been saying for months/ years, about that balcony.
That balcony with the fag ends was an absolute God send to an abductor. views of everywhere pertinent from that balcony.
A watcher could see anyone coming or going, and furthrmore he could easly communicate a warning to a third person standing outside Madeleines window/ at the Front door area. I suggest that a mini beam torch might have been flashed when danger was near.
There are two balconies that could have been used. There are actually a stack of three and the two upper ones could both have done the job. Both balconies additionally have a view straight into 5A sitting room.
That sitting room is the hub of the apartment with all doors opening off it and ... a light was left on in there. The man on the balcony could have seen everything going on in there ... as well as outside
Front door, patio door and inside of apartment. &%%6 What a gift for an abductor !
I fully realise that my thoughts, based on definite facts, are not 100% certainly linked, but IMO with so many facts that do link, ( including the dark and remote front door,) I think more thought should be given to the balcony /s opposite and the front door being used.
AIMO
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It hasn't infected mine.
It is a very worthy read confirming what I have been saying for months/ years, about that balcony.
That balcony with the fag ends was an absolute God send to an abductor. views of everywhere pertinent from that balcony.
A watcher could see anyone coming or going, and furthrmore he could easly communicate a warning to a third person standing outside Madeleines window/ at the Front door area. I suggest that a mini beam torch might have been flashed when danger was near.
There are two balconies that could have been used. There are actually a stack of three and the two upper ones could both have done the job. Both balconies additionally have a view straight into 5A sitting room.
That sitting room is the hub of the apartment with all doors opening off it and ... a light was left on in there. The man on the balcony could have seen everything going on in there ... as well as outside
Front door, patio door and inside of apartment. &%%6 What a gift for an abductor !
I fully realise that my thoughts, based on definite facts, are not 100% certainly linked, but IMO with so many facts that do link, ( including the dark and remote front door,) I think more thought should be given to the balcony /s opposite and the front door being used.
AIMO
This is all great and I'm not trying to denigrate your efforts in any way. But why so elaborate?
There's absolutely no need to stake the place out, apart from she was The Chosen One - Tripitaka (one for fans of Monkey there). An abductor would have the run of the village.
Even if she had been singled out, these people rarely loiter, waiting to be pinged. It's target, quick recce, smash and grab. There's no need for special keys, or a conspiracy of accomplices or recruiting of staff in advance. There's no need for a guy on a balcony with a pair of binoculars (besides, they'd be a pretty rubbish OP if they left all sorts of DNA / sign / evidence - if they were so organised and professional to be so elaborate, they'd be professional enough to leave nothing)
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In my theory Madeleine is already awake, as she was woken by the burglars attempting to break in. The sound that Matt heard could well be Madeleine trying to find a place to hide in the kids bedroom. IMO on the far side of the cots could have been a good place.
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot. He does not enter the bedroom but can see through a now quite open door (greater than 45 degrees) into the room.
He sees the two twins in their cot, but does not check Madeleine formally as no sounds and twins asleep. He recalls the room did seem lighter than expected, perhaps suggesting the shutter had been raised or the curtains opened?"
What are you going on about? Matt heard NO SOUNDS!
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This is all great and I'm not trying to denigrate your efforts in any way. But why so elaborate?
There's absolutely no need to stake the place out, apart from she was The Chosen One - Tripitaka (one for fans of Monkey there). An abductor would have the run of the village.
Even if she had been singled out, these people rarely loiter, waiting to be pinged. It's target, quick recce, smash and grab. There's no need for special keys, or a conspiracy of accomplices or recruiting of staff in advance. There's no need for a guy on a balcony with a pair of binoculars (besides, they'd be a pretty rubbish OP if they left all sorts of DNA / sign / evidence - if they were so organised and professional to be so elaborate, they'd be professional enough to leave nothing)
I have researched in huge depth over years, The General (TG), and that is why it is so elaborate. I walked that pathway all the way to the dark front door and noticed things. I touched nothing. I discovered things That few seem to have noticed. But I still missed a few things like flat 5J (misty), but of course, I was concentrating on the immediate area in front of the two outer doors and also Madeleines window. None of these could be seen from 5J immediate area, because of the tower block hiding the view
There is no place for smash and grab where sleeping young children are concerned ... softly softly is a much better approach.
Professionally, they left no DNA on the scene nor immediate surroundinggs. Would they expect the PJ to check inside another building. I doubt it.
No binoculars would be needed withe distancess being so short. In fact they would be an incumberance and a give away to anyone who noticed them upthere using them
Now if you will excuse me, I have to go
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What are you going on about? Matt heard NO SOUNDS!
It says he may have heard a sound. Can you say for certain he never? A sound is such a fleeting thing, was it a rat, was it a mouse, was it the twins, was it Madeleine hiding away? Who knows he never checked.
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It says he may have heard a sound. Can you say for certain he never? A sound is such a fleeting thing, was it a rat, was it a mouse, was it the twins, was it Madeleine hiding away? Who knows he never checked.
Where does it say this ?
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Where does it say this ?
Pathfinder gave us the link to the PJ statement. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
Who wrote it? But in there it says Matt heard a sound.
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Pathfinder gave us the link to the PJ statement. https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/TIME_LINE_3_MAY_07.htm
Who wrote it? But in there it says Matt heard a sound.
Thanks.
It appears to me to be the T9 account of events.
" Page 886
Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
201/07.OGALGS
O INSPECTOR
M.P.
ATTACHED
On this date, I attached to these official papers 3 computer printed pages, relating to the description of the events, that have been collectively prepared by the nine people of the group in question, that was delivered to this Police Officer by the British Liaison Official, before the start of re-questioning of those same people.
Portimao, 10 May 2007
INSPECTOR
M.P.
========================================
[3 page attachment] Pages 887-890
Original written in English.
Sequence of Events: Thursday 3rd May 2007 - 2030 to 2200
As recalled by:
Gerry McCann - 5A
Kate McCann - 5A
David Payne - 5H (First floor)
Fiona Payne - 5H (First floor)
Dianne Webster - 5H (First floor)
Jane Tanner - 5D
Russell O'Brien - 5D
Matthew Oldfield - 5B
Rachael Oldfield - 5B
Times shown are approximate, but accurate to the best of our knowledge.
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You hear a sound, but can be very unsure what made the sound. I think that is very possible what Matt says, and it is very important, to consider the possibility the sound could have been Madeleine hiding in the bedroom.
Matt also says there was more light in the room than expected, shutters maybe up, but now we allow that Madeleine may not be in her bed but could still be in the room. To me that is very important.
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You hear a sound, but can be very unsure what made the sound. I think that is very possible what Matt says, and it is very important, to think the sound could have been Madeleine hiding in the bedroom. He says there was more light than expected, shutters maybe up but Madeleine could still be in the room. To me that is very important.
Its all maybes, though He didn't attribute this sound and was unwilling to confirm that he had seen Madeleine that night .
Anything else is just speculation.
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Its all maybes, though He didn't attribute this sound and was unwilling to confirm that he had seen Madeleine that night .
Anything else is just speculation.
What I'm saying is showing you that there is another very probable interpretation of what Matt has said in that document.
You have a sound, you have more light, explain that? And there was no sound coming from Madeleine breathing on her bed, but he could hear the twins breathing.
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What I'm saying is showing you that there is another very probable interpretation of what Matt has said in that document.
You have a sound, you have more light, explain that? And there was no sound coming from Madeleine breathing on her bed, but he could hear the twins breathing.
If he was aware of sound as you claim he was, the lack of sound from each of the 3 children should have acted as a red flag -IMO
These are just retrospective observations, created to give credence to the Mccann narrative - again IMO
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You hear a sound, but can be very unsure what made the sound. I think that is very possible what Matt says, and it is very important, to consider the possibility the sound could have been Madeleine hiding in the bedroom.
Was there any forensic evidence of a sound?
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Was there any forensic evidence of a sound?
If a child stirs in a cot, but there's nobody around to hear it, does it make a sound?
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It says he may have heard a sound. Can you say for certain he never? A sound is such a fleeting thing, was it a rat, was it a mouse, was it the twins, was it Madeleine hiding away? Who knows he never checked.
"I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'."
https://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
IN MY OPINION First the police found a tampered crime scene and then they were receiving tampered witness statements. Seems a lot of tampering was going on! IN MY OPINION
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Was there any forensic evidence of a sound?
Well if Madeleine was hiding beyond the twin's cots maybe there were more of Madeleine's hair found there than we'd expect.
Sound comes from something, is there evidence of the something?
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Well if Madeleine was hiding beyond the twin's cots maybe there were more of Madeleine's hair found there than we'd expect.
Sound comes from something, is there evidence of the something.
Are you sticking with the story theory MBM and the tapas were playing hide and seek? and it went wrong?
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Are you sticking with the story theory MBM and the tapas were playing hide and seek? and it went wrong?
Well Matt's check went wrong. I couldn't even find any reference that Matt really knew what bed he'd find Madeleine in as he was doing his check.
As much as it seems hard to understand the McCanns accepted as an undisputed fact - something about the cadaver dogs alerting to cadaver odour in the apartment. I'd have to look it up again sorry.
If Madeleine was hiding at 9:35 PM there is no way there should be cadaver odour in the apartment coming from a deceased Madeleine.
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Well Matt's check went wrong. I could even find any reference that Matt really knew what bed he'd find Madeleine in.
As much as it seems hard to understand the McCanns accepted as an undisputed fact - something about the cadaver dogs alerting to cadaver odour in the apartment. I'd have to look it up again sorry.
If Madeleine was hiding at 9:35 PM there is no way there should be cadaver odour in the apartment coming from a deceased Madeleine.
Quite and then in lies the necessity for Mccanns and supporters to deny the meaning of the dog responses
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Quite and then in lies the necessity for Mccanns and supporters to deny the meaning of the dog responses
Where did the McCanns deny the dog responses? As I said they included it as an undisputed fact in the court case against Amaral.
"If Madeleine was hiding at 9:35 PM there is no way there should be cadaver odour in the apartment coming from a deceased Madeleine."
There has to be another explanation.
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Where did the McCanns deny the dog responses? As I said they included it as an undisputed fact in the court case against Amaral.
Ain't that the truth.
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Ain't that the truth.
There has to be another explanation other than Madeleine dying in the apartment. To allow the dog alerts to be an undisputed fact, I'd guess they know the reason for the cadaver dog alerts.
Does it seem logical you would not dispute the alerts unless you were aware of their causation.
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There has to be another explanation other than Madeleine dying in the apartment. To allow the dog alerts to be an undisputed fact, I'd guess they know the reason for the cadaver dog alerts.
Does it seem logical you would not dispute the alerts unless you were aware of their causation.
Thats a different slant on it and one to be considered, for both parties must have agreed with it.
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Thats a different slant on it and one to be considered, for both parties must have agreed with it.
That is my understanding of an undisputed fact, they both agree on the point. I'd need to see the wording again, was it just to the dogs barking, or was it to the dogs barked to something they were trained to find.
'Lets just look at the undisputed fact and see if it shows what they agreed to.
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Where did the McCanns deny the dog responses? As I said they included it as an undisputed fact in the court case against Amaral.
"If Madeleine was hiding at 9:35 PM there is no way there should be cadaver odour in the apartment coming from a deceased Madeleine."
There has to be another explanation.
Who is claiming it was Madelienes cadaver scent which was alerted to? No one as I can see.
It is still up there along with other substancial evidence- we may not be privvy to. Although the time line and other things just throw stuff at you it can't be missed- for those who want to see that is.
The fact that the parents dismissed it with a smirk and snigger shows a lack of concern that their daughter coud have been killed in the apartment by person or persons known or unknown to them.
Bizarre response.
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That is my understanding of an undisputed fact, they both agree on the point. I'd need to see the wording again, was it just to the dogs barking, or was it to the dogs barked to something they were trained to find.
'Lets just look at the undisputed fact and see if it shows what they agreed to.
Proved fact's.
6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].
7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
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Are you sticking with the story theory MBM and the tapas were playing hide and seek? and it went wrong?
To answer you more directly ... i'll resort to ellipses ... to get around the question ... yes.
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Where did the McCanns deny the dog responses? As I said they included it as an undisputed fact in the court case against Amaral.
"If Madeleine was hiding at 9:35 PM there is no way there should be cadaver odour in the apartment coming from a deceased Madeleine."
There has to be another explanation.
Turn the clock back then.
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Who is claiming it was Madelienes cadaver scent which was alerted to? No one as I can see.
It is still up there along with other substancial evidence- we may not be privvy to. Although the time line and other things just throw stuff at you it can't be missed- for those who want to see that is.
The fact that the parents dismissed it with a smirk and snigger shows a lack of concern that their daughter coud have been killed in the apartment by person or persons known or unknown to them.
Bizarre response.
Smirking means you know something more that the other person.
"Who is claiming it was Madeleine's cadaver scent which was alerted to? No one as I can see." Well wasn't it GA who claimed Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died in the apartment. He has supporters.
"It is still up there along with other substancial evidence- we may not be privvy to. Although the time line and other things just throw stuff at you it can't be missed- for those who want to see that is."
What a lot of waffle. Stop the waffle. You are better than that.
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Turn the clock back then.
You tell me what that means please.
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Smirking means you know something more that the other person.
"Who is claiming it was Madeleine's cadaver scent which was alerted to? No one as I can see." Well wasn't it GA who claimed Madeleine had an accident in the apartment and died in the apartment. He has supporters.
"It is still up there along with other substancial evidence- we may not be privvy to. Although the time line and other things just throw stuff at you it can't be missed- for those who want to see that is."
What a lot of waffle. Stop the waffle. You are better than that.
GA didn't say it was MBMs scent. cite for that.
wafffle? are you going to de wafffle my posts? I am not here to sucumb to your or any other mods writing style of your choice. getting all sanctimonious like.
waffle is : MBM and the family playing hide and seek and the girl disappears. WHAT THE...
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GA didn't say it was MBMs scent. cite for that.
wafffle? are you going to de wafffle my posts? I am not here to sucumb to your or any other mods writing style of your choice. getting all sanctimonious like.
waffle is : MBM and the family playing hide and seek and the girl disappears. WHAT THE...
I like that. "GA didn't say it was MBMs scent" Are you saying he also knows about the possibility of another cadaver being in the apartment that night? No one can say that cadaver odour is due to a particular victim, even if there was a body right there.
But they try to narrow it down. He set out to show that there were no previous deaths in apartment 5A.
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I like that. "GA didn't say it was MBMs scent" Are you saying he also knows about the possibility of another cadaver being in the apartment that night? No one can say that cadaver odour is due to a particular victim, even if there was a body right there.
But they try to narrow it down. He set out to show that there were no previous deaths in apartment 5A.
No, I am not saying "he also knows about the possibility of another cadaver being in the apartment that night? "
I am very clear in what I said -repeating for Rob: "GA didn't say it was MBMs scent" .Without a body how could he know.
He can get access to deaths recorded from that apartment- if none, and the time limit is ok, he can surmise the scent belongs to MBM. The dogs alerted to what they were trained to alert to.
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No, I am not saying "he also knows about the possibility of another cadaver being in the apartment that night? "
I am very clear in what I said -repeating for Rob: "GA didn't say it was MBMs scent" .Without a body how could he know.
He can get access to deaths recorded from that apartment- if none, and the time limit is ok, he can surmise the scent belongs to MBM. The dogs alerted to what they were trained to alert to.
Basically if there was cadaver scent it was most likely Madeleine’s.
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Basically if there was cadaver scent it was most likely Madeleine’s.
How have you arrived at this conclusion?
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How have you arrived at this conclusion?
No proof of other bodies in apartment or cross contamination. Missing person becomes likely cause.
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No proof of other bodies in apartment or cross contamination. Missing person becomes likely cause.
This is what the National Policing Improvement Agency concluded about the dogs in relation to the disappearance of Shannon Matthews:
The Victim Recovery Dogs used in this operation were drawn from 4 different forces. It emerged that each force has its own training and deployment policy and so there is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done. Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers, or record keeping of the success rate they achieve. This makes it difficult for SIO's to interpret the indication from a dog with no way knowing how reliable that indication was in the first place. ACPO is currently examining this issue due to a number of recent cases where the use of victim recovery dogs has had the potential to cause complications in an enquiry.
The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture.
The value of these dogs is undoubted, but there is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment and better information for SIOs about their use. The NPIA is currently working with the ACPO Strategic Dogs Working Group to resolve these issues.
Page 25 of doc:
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Operation-Paris.pdf
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This is what the National Policing Improvement Agency concluded about the dogs in relation to the disappearance of Shannon Matthews:
The Victim Recovery Dogs used in this operation were drawn from 4 different forces. It emerged that each force has its own training and deployment policy and so there is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done. Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers, or record keeping of the success rate they achieve. This makes it difficult for SIO's to interpret the indication from a dog with no way knowing how reliable that indication was in the first place. ACPO is currently examining this issue due to a number of recent cases where the use of victim recovery dogs has had the potential to cause complications in an enquiry.
The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture.
The value of these dogs is undoubted, but there is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment and better information for SIOs about their use. The NPIA is currently working with the ACPO Strategic Dogs Working Group to resolve these issues.
Page 25 of doc:
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Operation-Paris.pdf
So a cadaver had been in close proximity to the furniture the dogs alerted to. No one had died in 5a and, as far as we know, none of the furniture was second hand.
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When the dogs had a good sniff around the McCanns hire car along with other cars, were the other cars also hire cars or privately owned with the usual 1/2 plus owners?
Obviously hire cars, especially in tourist resorts, will have contained hundreds if not thousands of drivers and passengers any of which may have come into contact with dead bodies. Conversely privately owned may not have had any drivers/passengers coming into contact with dead bodies.
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So a cadaver had been in close proximity to the furniture the dogs alerted to. No one had died in 5a and, as far as we know, none of the furniture was second hand.
The apartment was a holiday let how would we know who had been in there and the history of the contents?
When Mrs Fenn, above, bought her apartment she did so following the death of her husband.
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The apartment was a holiday let how would we know who had been in there and the history of the contents?
When Mrs Fenn, above, bought her apartment she did so following the death of her husband.
That's an desperate attempt at an extremely tenuous connection - IMO
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The apartment was a holiday let how would we know who had been in there and the history of the contents?
When Mrs Fenn, above, bought her apartment she did so following the death of her husband.
The same could be said for all the properties Eddie searched. Are you saying that it was only in the parent’s apartment and no other that there was the potential for cadaver contamination?
Murat’s father lived at the villa where Murat and his mother lived at the time. There is just as much chance of cross contamination there yet Eddie didn’t alert.
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That's an desperate attempt at an extremely tenuous connection - IMO
Really? What evidence do you have that someone or something has never been in concact with a dead body and subsequently had contact with 5A?
The areas tested ie a holiday let and hire car are potentially accessed by hundreds, if not thousands of people, along with their possessions.
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The same could be said for all the properties Eddie searched. Are you saying that it was only in the parent’s apartment and no other that there was the potential for cadaver contamination?
Murat’s father lived at the villa where Murat and his mother lived at the time. There is just as much chance of cross contamination there yet Eddie didn’t alert.
I'm saying a holiday let and a hire care sustain huge numbers of people traffic.
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Really? What evidence do you have that someone or something has never been in concact with a dead body and subsequently had contact with 5A?
The areas tested ie a holiday let and hire car are potentially accessed by hundreds, if not thousands of people, along with their possessions.
Other apartments were checked by the dogs. They only responded in the McCann apartment.
Coincidence or what ?
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I'm saying a holiday let and a hire care sustain huge numbers of people traffic.
They do...ALL holiday lets and hire cars yet Eddie only alerted to properties and items associated with the McCann family. How do you explain that?
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The same could be said for all the properties Eddie searched. Are you saying that it was only in the parent’s apartment and no other that there was the potential for cadaver contamination?
Murat’s father lived at the villa where Murat and his mother lived at the time. There is just as much chance of cross contamination there yet Eddie didn’t alert.
Did Murat's father live at Casa Liliana? Murat was 12 yoa when his father died.
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Did Murat's father live at Casa Liliana? Murat was 12 yoa when his father died.
It is a possibility...and isn’t that what we are talking about....possibilities?
Why do you think Eddie alerted to no other properties or items except those associated with the McCann family ?
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Other apartments were checked by the dogs. They only responded in the McCann apartment.
Coincidence or what ?
Which apartments were checked?
What sort of floor/ceiling petition existed between 5A and Mrs Fenn? If the dogs were able to pick up the odour from second-hand furniture in the Shannon Matthews case then there's every possibility they were picking up from Mrs Fenn's late husband is there not?
Mrs Fenn down-sized when her husband died and bought the apartment above 5A. How do we know she didn't sell or offer foc any of her furniture to the owners of 5A?
The above is just one explanation. Were any checks carried out on the history of contents and all those who occupied 5A?
We also know the McCanns worked in the medi profession and may well have come into contact with corpses.
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Which apartments were checked?
What sort of floor/ceiling petition existed between 5A and Mrs Fenn? If the dogs were able to pick up the odour from second-hand furniture in the Shannon Matthews case then there's every possibility they were picking up from Mrs Fenn's late husband is there not?
Mrs Fenn down-sized when her husband died and bought the apartment above 5A. How do we know she didn't sell or offer foc any of her furniture to the owners of 5A?
The above is just one explanation. Were any checks carried out on the history of contents and all those who occupied 5A?
We also know the McCanns worked in the medi profession and may well have come into contact with corpses.
All these scenarios equally apply to the rest of the group and Murat. Why no alerts to any of their apartments, clothes or any other items ?
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We also know the McCanns worked in the medi profession and may well have come into contact with corpses.
The whole entourage were in the medi profession, making the alerts even more unique.
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It is a possibility...and isn’t that what we are talking about....possibilities?
Why do you think Eddie alerted to no other properties or items except those associated with the McCann family ?
But the properties and items alerted to were not used exclusively by the McCann family nor did they have any knowledge of where items were obtained from and their history.
For all we know an abductor might have entered 5A and left some material from his/her shoe from a previous crime which the dog alerted to. Bizarrely the abductor might have transported MM in the car subsequently hired by the McCanns. I think this is unlikely but has it been ruled out?
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The whole entourage were in the medi profession, making the alerts even more unique.
6/9 were in the medi profession. Were they all hands on or some research/lecturing etc?
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But the properties and items alerted to were not used exclusively by the McCann family nor did they have any knowledge of where items were obtained from and their history.
For all we know an abductor might have entered 5A and left some material from his/her shoe from a previous crime which the dog alerted to. Bizarrely the abductor might have transported MM in the car subsequently hired by the McCanns. I think this is unlikely but has it been ruled out?
Of course it hasn't been ruled out, because there is no evidence of an abductor to be checked.
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All these scenarios equally apply to the rest of the group and Murat. Why no alerts to any of their apartments, clothes or any other items ?
Murat was different in that he and his mother only lived at Casa Liliana. The apartments were holiday lets with huge numbers of human traffic coming and going.
Mrs Fenn was the only owner occupier and we know her husband died in 2003 and she lived above 5A most probably with possessions that had been around her late husband. What would have been interesting is putting the dogs in her apartment. I bet they would have gone ballistic and the odour in 5A was seeping from there.
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Of course it hasn't been ruled out, because there is no evidence of an abductor to be checked.
I meant has the history of the hire car been checked out between the time of MM's disappearance and the McCanns hiring it?
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Murat was different in that he and his mother only lived at Casa Liliana. The apartments were holiday lets with huge numbers of human traffic coming and going.
Mrs Fenn was the only owner occupier and we know her husband died in 2003 and she lived above 5A most probably with possessions that had been around her late husband. What would have been interesting is putting the dogs in her apartment. I bet they would have gone ballistic and the odour in 5A was seeping from there.
More unsubstantiated inventions.
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More unsubstantiated inventions.
Why wouldn't they have alerted? They alerted to second-hand furniture in the Shannon Matthews case that had been brought from dwellings where someone had died so why not in Mrs Fenn's?
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6/9 were in the medi profession. Were they all hands on or some research/lecturing etc?
Well exactly. How many were issuing death certificates, for example?
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Why wouldn't they have alerted? They alerted to second-hand furniture in the Shannon Matthews case that had been brought from dwellings where someone had died so why not in Mrs Fenn's?
You can invent things to your heart's content, but unless you can demonstrate that they actually happened in this case, you are wasting your time IMO
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But the properties and items alerted to were not used exclusively by the McCann family nor did they have any knowledge of where items were obtained from and their history.
For all we know an abductor might have entered 5A and left some material from his/her shoe from a previous crime which the dog alerted to. Bizarrely the abductor might have transported MM in the car subsequently hired by the McCanns. I think this is unlikely but has it been ruled out?
Nor were any of the places occupied by the tapas group used solely by them. Why no alerts there ?
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No, I am not saying "he also knows about the possibility of another cadaver being in the apartment that night? "
I am very clear in what I said -repeating for Rob: "GA didn't say it was MBMs scent" .Without a body how could he know.
He can get access to deaths recorded from that apartment- if none, and the time limit is ok, he can surmise the scent belongs to MBM. The dogs alerted to what they were trained to alert to.
I still think I'm right.
Here is the logic:
GA believes the dogs picked up cadaver odour. -YES
There is no body there so he has to consider all possibilities. -YES
Question: was the deceased there on the night of the 3rd or was it before? (Really he would also have to consider "since" too as the dog searches are happening in late July??)
If the deceased was there on the night of the 3rd - he has to consider whether it was Madeleine or someone else. If he didn't he missed one of the important possibilities!
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Nor were any of the places occupied by the tapas group used solely by them. Why no alerts there ?
Or any of the other cars. (I can actually hear Davros chucking coal in to his hard drive and stretching his fingers)
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Grimes report talks of scent building up in an apartment closed down in a hot climate:
What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.
It sounds plausible to me the scent was emanating from Mrs Fenn's and somehow seeping through the floor/walls/pipes etc.
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Nor were any of the places occupied by the tapas group used solely by them. Why no alerts there ?
It would spoil the show if the dogs actually alerted to every microscopic drop of blood that had ever been spilt in any of those, apartments.
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Grimes report talks of scent building up in an apartment closed down in a hot climate:
What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner. But strong indication and I would say its positive for things that he is trained to find, which will be part of a separate debrief.
It sounds plausible to me the scent was emanating from Mrs Fenn's and somehow seeping through the floor/walls/pipes etc.
....in to the cupboard in the bedroom. Remarkable.
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Well exactly. How many were issuing death certificates, for example?
Wrong case.
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Wrong case.
That's what Gerry said.
Joke, cammarnn, gimme a break over here.
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Murat was different in that he and his mother only lived at Casa Liliana. The apartments were holiday lets with huge numbers of human traffic coming and going.
Mrs Fenn was the only owner occupier and we know her husband died in 2003 and she lived above 5A most probably with possessions that had been around her late husband. What would have been interesting is putting the dogs in her apartment. I bet they would have gone ballistic and the odour in 5A was seeping from there.
You have absolutely nothing to base that assumption on.
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It would spoil the show if the dogs actually alerted to every microscopic drop of blood that had ever been spilt in any of those, apartments...no wonder grime raced through them
Wrong again - read the white paper as to the type of blood a cadaver dog reacts to.
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You can invent things to your heart's content, but unless you can demonstrate that they actually happened in this case, you are wasting your time IMO
It's not a case of inventing things its ruling out other explanations and possibilities. I don't need to demonstrate anything it has already been done by The National Policing Improvement Agency:
The Victim Recovery Dogs used in this operation were drawn from 4 different forces. It emerged that each force has its own training and deployment policy and so there is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done. Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers, or record keeping of the success rate they achieve. This makes it difficult for SIO's to interpret the indication from a dog with no way knowing how reliable that indication was in the first place. ACPO is currently examining this issue due to a number of recent cases where the use of victim recovery dogs has had the potential to cause complications in an enquiry.
The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture.
The value of these dogs is undoubted, but there is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment and better information for SIOs about their use. The NPIA is currently working with the ACPO Strategic Dogs Working Group to resolve these issues.
Page 25 of doc:
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Operation-Paris.pdf
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You have absolutely nothing to base that assumption on.
No, let's have this. I'm intrigued. I want to read about the travel path of this odour.
Which way would you expect an odour to travel, Holly?
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It's not a case of inventing things its ruling out other explanations and possibilities. I don't need to demonstrate anything it has already been done by The National Policing Improvement Agency:
The Victim Recovery Dogs used in this operation were drawn from 4 different forces. It emerged that each force has its own training and deployment policy and so there is no consistency in what the dogs can do and how it is done. Furthermore, there is no national standard for accrediting dogs and handlers, or record keeping of the success rate they achieve. This makes it difficult for SIO's to interpret the indication from a dog with no way knowing how reliable that indication was in the first place. ACPO is currently examining this issue due to a number of recent cases where the use of victim recovery dogs has had the potential to cause complications in an enquiry.
The properties that the dog searched contained a high level of second-hand furniture bought from dwellings where someone had died. This resulted in numerous indications that required further investigation to confirm whether they were connected to the investigation, or to previous owners of the furniture.
The value of these dogs is undoubted, but there is an urgent need to have national policy on their training, accreditation and deployment and better information for SIOs about their use. The NPIA is currently working with the ACPO Strategic Dogs Working Group to resolve these issues.
Page 25 of doc:
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Operation-Paris.pdf
You are inventing your suggestion that Mrs Fenn's apartment wreaked of death which just happened to percolate downwards into 5A
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I would love to know what the PJ told Martin Grime about the case prior to the dog searches.
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I would love to know what the PJ told Martin Grime about the case prior to the dog searches.
He said that he'd be happy to help. He said his dogs like Pedigree Chum, but due to their success rate, he feeds them on Winalot!
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You are inventing your suggestion that Mrs Fenn's apartment wreaked of death which just happened to percolate downwards into 5A
That is a theory. Stands until it is proven wrong.
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He said that he'd be happy to help. He said his dogs like Pedigree Chum, but due to their success rate, he feeds them on Winalot!
They are certainly full of energy. He must feed them well.
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He said that he'd be happy to help. He said his dogs like Pedigree Chum, but due to their success rate, he feeds them on Winalot!
Interesting but I was more interested in what the PJ told him about the case before the searches took place rather than what he told them about his furry friends.
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You are inventing your suggestion that Mrs Fenn's apartment wreaked of death which just happened to percolate downwards into 5A
That is a theory. Stands until it is proven wrong.
Another one to add to the village of the damned.
Pinched from elsewhere.
"What a place. Why does anyone holiday there?
It's populated by black heroin addicts, people who rob apartments, gypsies who steal scrap and wood, scruffy moustachioed lurers of children, bogus charity collectors, suspicious street musicians, men lurking near phone booths, glasses man lurking in stairwells, blond men suspiciously lurking outside apartments, soothing couples entering apartments without permission, mysterious gangs of cleaners, men taking photographs of children on beaches... And to top it all, you have to queue for a table booking."
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Interesting but I was more interested in what the PJ told him about the case before the searches took place rather than what he told them about his furry friends.
Ah, OK. Don't know.
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He said that he'd be happy to help. He said his dogs like Pedigree Chum, but due to their success rate, he feeds them on Winalot!
@)(++(* I like it!
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@)(++(* I like it!
It sounds really meaty.
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Well exactly. How many were issuing death certificates, for example?
There was a claim on another thread (sorry can't locate it- so many dog threads!) a lot was made of the fact that kate was a GP and there may be cross contamination from her trousers as she handed out death certificates.
The supporters made great posts supporting with that one. I laughed my head off.