Author Topic: The Defence Will State Their Case  (Read 599770 times)

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1125 on: November 12, 2017, 09:34:07 PM »
Land Registry

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17 January
Land Registry documents show the killer could have entered and left Yeates's flat without being seen by any of her neighbours.

What was visible on the Land Registry Records on the 17th January 2011??

Does this go with Joanna Yeates living in what I believe to be Flat 2???

I say this because of 2 reasons....

If it was flat 1 ...anyone could have entered by the little gate and seen by anyone outside.... And you wouldn't need the Land Registry Plans for that...

The land Registry Documents were talked about before the Yeates appeal on the 18th January 2011 which prompted the sobbing girl phone call ...

So up until this point... the images that we know of as the basement flats are of no use... And after when we see the basement flats they are still of no use as the door is blocked off between the basement flats....

So what was on the land registry plans that showed how someone could enter Joanna Yeates flat without being seen???

To me that sounds like it is from inside the house... Don't know what anyone else thinks...

They had to have had the entire house on these plans... So what was visible on the plans to show someone could access Joanna Yeates Flat without being seen??

Where the media already suggesting Dr Vincent Tabak at this early stage ??? Or do the plans mean something else ???







https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2010/dec/30/joanna-yeates-disappearance-murder-timeline

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1126 on: November 13, 2017, 11:19:04 AM »
Where were the Defence

Quote
Indeed, he had no previous convictions for sex offences or for any other criminal offences and in
fact was a virgin when he met his then partner Miss Morston. The judge cannot be said to have

correctly directed the jury in their conviction of Dr Vincent Tabak for murder, because the trial
judge, had been told beforehand by police officers, that a prostitute in Los Angeles had telephoned
the Avon and Somerset police to identify Vincent Tabak as her one-time client for prostitution in
Los Angeles and requested ‘strangulation sex’.

From the Sally Ramage papers, we can see that Dr Vincent Tabak was sexually inexperienced when he meet Tanja Morson and in fact was still a virgin....

This flies in the face of all that has been said about Dr Vincent Tabak's sexual appetite... The supposed sexual purpose that Dr Vincent Tabak apparently showed in his approach to Joanna Yeates, seems flawed.. (imo)

If Dr Vincent Tabak had a penchant for prostitutes, surely he would have been using these ladies well before he meet Tanja Morson...  Therefore losing his virginal status...

And if he was into watching this porn on a regular basis, he again would have used the services of prostitutes before he meet Tanja Morson..

There has been NO EVIDENCE brought (A) to trial or (B) to the public that proves that Dr Vincent Tabak watched pornography or used Prostitutes... Yet the public have been tricked into believing that this is the case...

Did Dr Vincent Tabak wake up one morning and think... Oh yes i know what I'll do I will become a sexual deviant as my hobby choice??..... Ridiculous.....  Sexual deviant behaviour tends to start at a young age (imo) and there is no signs of this in Dr Vincent Tabak....

There are NO woman that were produced at trial to state that Dr Vincent Tabak's behaviour towards them had ever been untoward... Dc Joe Goff stated after the trial that they never spoke to these supposed prostitutes.. So were was the evidence that Dr Vincent Tabak had this type of behaviour...

Would going in to Kiss your neighbour you have just meet, be the type of behaviour of a man like Dr Vincent Tabak, who to all intense and purposes, was very inexperienced, and obviously had never demonstrated this behaviour before, or there would have been a string of witness's to say so....

Why would Dr Vincent Tabak jeopardise his relationship with Tanja by attempting to kiss his next door neighbour for whom he had meet for a couple of minutes.. That seems highly implausible....

He apparently went as far as grabbing Joanna Yeates around the waist area so his hand was around her back... That too seems highly implausible, that action is of someone whom knows a person well, whom is comfortable, with a person... Someone whom is moving the person towards them in an intimate manner... That movement suggests that both people were familiar with each other...

Quote
Doing as best you can describe to the court exactly what you did

I put my hand in the small of her back and went to kiss her

Did you kiss her?

Noooo

The statements contradict each other....  Dr Vincent Tabak is agreeing he apparently put his hand around her back and then went to kiss her.... But when asked if he kissed her his response is of someone whom appears shocked at the idea... (imo)

Was Dr Vincent Tabak looking at notes when he made that statement about his actions ???

Wouldn't Joanna Yeates have reacted sooner, as Dr Vincent Tabak was trying to put his hand around her back... I do not believe that Joanna Yeates would have allowed Dr Vincent Tabak to get that close, without trying to escape his clutches... I cannot see her just standing there and not moving...(imo)...

Again I would say that that action, would indeed be of someone whom knew Joanna Yeates ....

I try to envisage Joanna Yeates stood with Dr Vincent Tabak in the kitchen, and him apparently moving in to grab her around the waist... Because lets face it that what it means.... never mind the small of her back rubbish.. They are describing an action of someone grabbing Joanna Yeates around the waist...

At this point wouldn't she move out of the way ??? wouldn't she duck, dive, grab his hand... tell him were to go...

She doesn't she starts to scream...... Why??? The big question is Why did Joanna Yeates start to scream after she was grabbed around the waist???

This in my mind suggest that these actions were done by someone whom she knew... Because I believe that Joanna Yeates would have made some attempt to escape before she started to scream....

I did notice the Defence nor The prosecution established how close to each other Dr Vincent Tabak and Joanna Yeates were for him to be able to easily grab her around her waist.....

The action is such that he would (imo) have to be close enough to grab her as her face to be close enough for her to be kissed... Was her head looking up???  Or was it down ??? I think these are important factors...  If we are talking strangers here, I would imagine her head looking down and her chin close to her chest as she tries to move away from her assailant...

But the description that the court gives us, which is extremely vague, has us imagining that her head was up, and her neck was exposed, as to make it easy for Dr Vincent Tabak to grab her around the throat, when she let out a scream....
This doesn't sound right at all.... But what vision I mostly get from these action are, what I remember as a child, watching old "Black and White" Movies... when the man grabs the woman around the waist and pulls her closer to Kiss her... Occasionally the woman responds with a slap around the face... I can almost see the side on view of this action that Dr Vincent Tabak apparently did....

Is this the action that they are describing in court or wanting the jury to imagine ????

I will keep saying ..The words that came out of Dr Vincent Tabaks mouth at trial were not his own... The statement that he apparently has signed to say he killed Joanna Yeates hasn't got this detail... I believe these words have come from someone who was interviewed by the Police... And it has to be someone whom Joanna Yeates knew.....(imo)

The action of grabbing Joanna Yeates by the waist as to draw her in to kiss her is an extremely intimate action, that would be done by someone close to Joanna Yeates.... If Dr Vincent Tabak had a sexual purpose that they claim he did and was a sexual deviant that they claim after the trial... why would he even bother kissing her ..... ???

I would have imaged that someone with the sexual deviance that they say Dr Vincent Tabak had wouldn't have even bothered with foreplay, as he was supposed to be someone who like bondage type films... So why wasn't Joanna Yeates tided up and restrained?? Why would he bother with the pleasantries of kissing???

Ok, I'm sure some of you think that was just Dr Vincent Tabak answer for the court to make it sound like no sexual attack took place and it was all an accident...

But can you all honestly say what else Dr Vincent Tabak could have done according to the trial testimony and the evidence of Dr Delaney...??

Where was the DNA under Joanna Yeates finger nails from fighting off her attacker ?? Remember he has one hand around her waist and one hand either over her mouth or around her throat... How did he restrain her... Her wrists had marks upon them. That would take two hands... So where did Dr Vincent Tabak sprout 2 extra hands from???

Visualizing this attack, it seems impossible for it to happen in the manor they say it did... Without Joanna Yeates putting up some type of struggle that would leave the attacker with evidence of this assault....

Why didn't the Defence or Prosecution, ask Dr Vincent Tabak how he managed to restrain Joanna Yeates as to leave finger marks on her wrists and holding her waist and throat at the same time... Because all of these actions that left marks on Janna Yeates body had to be done whilst she was alive and the blood was still circulating around her body....

Neither the Prosecution or Defence question this implausible theory that Dr Vincent Tabak apparently did on his own.... But happily go along with it, so they have a scapegoat at trial to take the fall for the murder of Joanna Yeates (imo)



https://philpapers.org/archive/RAMTMT-4.pdf

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1127 on: November 13, 2017, 11:57:35 AM »
None of us posting on here can say for sure  whether or not Vincent Tabak was sexually experienced,  or indeed, whether he liked watching porn, or whether he ever sought the services of escorts.

However, I do find it very strange that nobody ever came forward to say that he behaved inappropriately towards women. He had plenty of opportunity to do so, after all:  he had female colleagues, he had female friends, he had ex-colleagues, former neighbours, university acquaintances,  he knew Tanja's friends.  I find it hard to believe that Joanna Yeates was the first woman he ever "tried it on" with. 

Which is why I cannot believe he did, guilty plea or no guilty plea.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 11:59:45 AM by mrswah »

Offline [...]

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1128 on: November 13, 2017, 12:07:48 PM »
None of us posting on here can say for sure  whether or not Vincent Tabak was sexually experienced,  or indeed, whether he liked watching porn, or whether he ever sought the services of escorts.

However, I do find it very strange that nobody ever came forward to say that he behaved inappropriately towards women. He had plenty of opportunity to do so, after all:  he had female colleagues, he had female friends, he had ex-colleagues, former neighbours, university acquaintances,  he knew Tanja's friends.  I find it hard to believe that Joanna Yeates was the first woman he ever "tried it on" with. 

Which is why I cannot believe he did, guilty plea or no guilty plea.

Indeed mrswah.... But as I was using  Sally Ranages papers were she states that Dr Vincent Tabak was a virgin before he met Tanja.. I assumed that him risking his relationship with her by visiting prostitutes and the like, seems ridiculous... Therefore only having one sexual partner, for a couple of years would count for Dr Vincent Tabak's lack of sexual experience....(imo)

Unless you believe that Sally Ramage is mistaken in her statement...


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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1129 on: November 13, 2017, 12:57:36 PM »
Sally Ramage...

I felt that because people believe that the information I have used is somehow wrong... i would bring forward Sally Ramage and her accreditations, for people to have an understanding of where she stands in the legal field...

LinkedIn

Quote
Sally Ramage
 
Chief EDITOR: Criminal Lawyer; Current Criminal Law; STATUTE ANNOTATER ; CORPORATE CRIME LAW WRITER; TM UK, US, INDIA.
Bloomsbury Professional   LLM, University of Staffordshire
Birmingham, United Kingdom 500+ 500+ connections

As the overwhelming value of most early-stage companies resides in their intellectual assets, IPFrontline is the publication whose legal content on IP is second to none.
LexisNexis® and ThomsonReuters are both leading global providers of content-enabled workflow solutions to professionals in law firms, corporations, government, law enforcement, tax, accounting, academic institutions and risk and compliance assessment.

Specialties: conflict management, content management, fax, criminal law, marketing, Netscape enterprise server, networking, police, research, writing,

More on sally Ramage.....

Quote
SALLY RAMAGE
Main Details
Full name   SALLY RAMAGE
Country     United Kingdom
Primary language   English
Specialist areas   
EDITOR, JOURNALS, Criminal law; family law; finance

Editorial work   News writing, Features writing, Editing, Sub-editing, Radio
Last updated   10-07-2012 17:41
Articles published for Westlaw the legal data base for lawyers.... I have only copied five there are 216 articles that published... And many other books etc.....

Quote
Articles published in WESTLAW legal database for lawyers
1. Whitney Houston dies: now follow the money
Citation: Crim. L.N. 2012, 41(Mar), 2-6
Subject: Intellectual property; Arts and culture
Keywords: Copyright; Musical works; Royalties
Documents: Legal Journals Index Abstract

2. The trial of Vincent Tabak for the murder of Joanna Yeates
Citation: Crim. L.N. 2012, 39(Jan), 2-50
Subject: Criminal procedure; Criminal evidence
Keywords: Expert evidence; Juries; Murder; Witness statements
Documents: Legal Journals Index Abstract

3. Preserving legal privilege and employing a PR professional while your client is being investigated or prosecuted
Citation: Crim. Law. 2012, 206, 3-5
Subject: Legal profession; Criminal procedure
Keywords: Clients; Criminal investigations; Legal professional privilege; Public relations
Documents: Full Text Article, Legal Journals Index Abstract

4. Identification: Investigation, Trial and Scientific Evidence (Publication Review)
Citation: Crim. Law. 2012, 206, 6
Subject: Criminal evidence
Documents: Full Text Article, Legal Journals Index Abstract

5. Forensic Medicine in Western Society: A History (Publication Review)
Citation: Crim. Law. 2012, 206, 7
Subject: Criminal evidence; Police
Documents: Full Text Article, Legal Journals Index Abstract

Then we have .....

Quote
The Criminal Lawyer newsletter is published six times a year to keep the busy criminal law practitioner up-to-date with recent changes and developments in criminal law. Each issue contains a news review, articles on recent legislation and signficant cases, as well as a page set aside for points in practice. ISSN: 09567429



Quote
Current Issues in English Criminal Law This book contains the latest in English criminal law. It is written in the style of nine essays on current issues in English criminal law.

She has her own site http://www.criminal-lawyer.org.uk/

Quote
SALLY RAMAGE
Editor of The Criminal Lawyer, Bloomsbury Professional, UK; annotator in Current Law Statutes
Verified email at law-office.co.uk - Homepage
criminal lawcorporate crimeprison lawhuman rights

Here are the first page of 20 of some titles...

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Comprehensive functional analysis of Mycobacterium tuberculosis toxin-antitoxin systems: implications for pathogenesis, stress responses, and evolution
HR Ramage, LE Connolly, JS Cox
PLoS genetics 5 (12), e1000767   388   2009
Explaining criminal careers: Implications for justice policy
JF MacLeod, PG Grove, DP Farrington
Oxford University Press   34   2014
The financial crisis and white collar crime: The perfect storm?
N Ryder
Edward Elgar Publishing   16   2014
Abuse of process in criminal proceedings
D Corker, MA Summers, D Young
Butterworths   10   2003
The Guyana Court of Appeal
B Ramcharan
Cavendish Publishing   4   2001
English prison law
S Ramage
iUniverse   3   2009
Johnson's Dictionary
D Dabydeen
Peepal Tree   2   2013
Information technology facilitating money laundering
S Ramage
Information & Communications Technology Law 21 (3), 269-282   2   2012
Covert surveillance'
S Ramage
Criminal Lawyer 181, 2   2   2008
The Tottenham riots in August 2011
S Ramage
Criminal Law News, 2-5   1   2011
Fraud Investigation: Criminal Procedure and Investigation
S Ramage
iUniverse   1   2009
A Comparative Analysis of Corporate Fraud: Fraud Law: Book Four
S Ramage
iUniverse   1   2006
SSRN Abstract Database Search Results
ID Forgot
1   
Book review:'The law relating to financial crime in the United Kingdom '
S Ramage
2017
Analysis of R v H 2014
S Ramage
2017
Miscarriage of jstice
SS Ramage
2017
Genetics crime and justice, Edward elgar 2015
S Ramage
2016
Cold case: the 1994 death of British MP Stephen David Wyatt Milligan
S Ramage
2016
Critical analysis of case R v H [2015]
S Ramage
2015
Criminal Law Journals Chief Editor
S Ramage
2015
Articles 1–20


I believe that Sally Ramages credentials speak for themselves and I have no reason not to believe what she has written about Dr Vincent Tabak and The Joanna Yeates case being untrue or incorrect... I have referred to The Sally Ramage Papers on numerous occasion for the information on this case.... And will continue to do so...

Otherwise someone provide me with all the evidence ...all the trial transcripts that 1300 page document and all of the witness statement read out at trial, so I can cross reference everything myself....

Other than that... I believe Sally Ramage is in the best position to give us the information we know from trial.... And have been lead to believe that she actually attended the trial itself....

I hope Sally doesn't mind me posting this....



https://freelanceprofiles.responsesource.com/journalist/QXLLT/SALLY-RAMAGE

https://scholar.google.com/citations?user=nvY3qJcAAAAJ&hl=en

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/The_Criminal_Lawyer.html?id=5HMsQAAACAAJ&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

https://books.google.co.uk/books/about/Current_Issues_in_English_Criminal_Law.html?id=aRBXlFExrtQC&source=kp_cover&redir_esc=y

https://www.linkedin.com/in/criminallawyer1/

Offline Baz

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1130 on: November 13, 2017, 01:00:49 PM »
None of us posting on here can say for sure  whether or not Vincent Tabak was sexually experienced,  or indeed, whether he liked watching porn, or whether he ever sought the services of escorts.

However, I do find it very strange that nobody ever came forward to say that he behaved inappropriately towards women. He had plenty of opportunity to do so, after all:  he had female colleagues, he had female friends, he had ex-colleagues, former neighbours, university acquaintances,  he knew Tanja's friends.  I find it hard to believe that Joanna Yeates was the first woman he ever "tried it on" with. 

Which is why I cannot believe he did, guilty plea or no guilty plea.

Hi Mrswah,

I can see your point about this but I would suggest a different point of view.

If we momentarily accept the evidence of the pornography on his computer and his visiting the prostitutes then could this not be seen as a kind of escalation. He goes from the imaginary experience that porn provides to the simulated experience with a prostitute. Perhaps this lead to an increase in confidence and desire. When he finds himself in Joanna's flat he sees an opportunity and tries to capitalise on it but it goes wrong, he panics and the worst happens. I admit that I haven't looked deeply into the porn/prostitute allegations but this is at least a scenario that makes some kind of sense.

I can't agree with your "he hasn't done anything like it before therefore he must be innocent" assertion because there is a first time for everything. And I certainly don't think that he never tried it on with anyone outweighs an un-retracted confession.

Isn't it also possible that other women did come forward with stories about Vincent that were not taken to trial because they already had his guilty plea and so did not feel the need to present this evidence?

Offline [...]

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1131 on: November 13, 2017, 01:12:54 PM »
Hi Mrswah,

I can see your point about this but I would suggest a different point of view.

If we momentarily accept the evidence of the pornography on his computer and his visiting the prostitutes then could this not be seen as a kind of escalation. He goes from the imaginary experience that porn provides to the simulated experience with a prostitute. Perhaps this lead to an increase in confidence and desire. When he finds himself in Joanna's flat he sees an opportunity and tries to capitalise on it but it goes wrong, he panics and the worst happens. I admit that I haven't looked deeply into the porn/prostitute allegations but this is at least a scenario that makes some kind of sense.

I can't agree with your "he hasn't done anything like it before therefore he must be innocent" assertion because there is a first time for everything. And I certainly don't think that he never tried it on with anyone outweighs an un-retracted confession.

Isn't it also possible that other women did come forward with stories about Vincent that were not taken to trial because they already had his guilty plea and so did not feel the need to present this evidence?

His Guilty Plea meant nothing once he went to trial.... I believe that that was put aside and the Jury only had the evidence that was presented at trial...

The Guilty Plea was not accepted... The only choice the jury had was to find him either Guilty of Murder or Not guilty of murder... Otherwise the fact he had plead guilty in May 2011 would have been entered into evidence... This was NOT!!

If the jury had found him not guilty I believe Dr Vincent Tabak would have walked away a free man as the guilty plea was not applicable...

So nothing that was said at trial implicated Dr Vincent Tabak apart from some half baked story.. There was no evidence to support this story that was told by Dr Vincent Tabak at court.....

I believe that the court would have needed to be shown the Long Lartin video where Dr Vincent Tabak pleads guilty to manslaughter...I do not believe this was ever shown to the Jury or any member of the public for that matter....

So (imo)... The Guilty plea was null and void by the time the trial started....

Therefore you would need evidence of Dr Vincent Tabak's interaction with other females who had experience of him behaving in such a manner, to support the fact that it was part of his character... (imo)


 

Offline Baz

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1132 on: November 13, 2017, 01:18:38 PM »

I believe that Sally Ramages credentials speak for themselves and I have no reason not to believe what she has written about Dr Vincent Tabak and The Joanna Yeates case being untrue or incorrect... I have referred to The Sally Ramage Papers on numerous occasion for the information on this case.... And will continue to do so...

Otherwise someone provide me with all the evidence ...all the trial transcripts that 1300 page document and all of the witness statement read out at trial, so I can cross reference everything myself....

Other than that... I believe Sally Ramage is in the best position to give us the information we know from trial.... And have been lead to believe that she actually attended the trial itself....

I hope Sally doesn't mind me posting this....



I don't want to say anything disparaging about Sally Ramage because I do not know her but I am a lot less convinced of her credentials than you are.

For instance if you go to the Westlaw Legal database and search Sally Ramage there are no articles, unless I am mistaken.

Also, with regard to "The Criminal Lawyer" it seems that she is the only person to write for it, and she is the editor plus at the bottom of the June 2017 edition it says Printed and Published by Sally Ramage. So it appears that this periodical is something she just self publishes (as with her books.) Without an editorial team can we really rely on the accuracy of her writing?

And on that point I would argue that the answer is no as we have already shown a number of ways that her article regarding Tabak is inaccurate and misleading.

I would argue that she's really not a great source of information, personally. I'd love to know if she was at the trial.

Is there a way of getting trial transcripts if you are not directly involved in the case? Would be a fascinating read.

Offline Baz

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1133 on: November 13, 2017, 01:25:58 PM »
His Guilty Plea meant nothing once he went to trial.... I believe that that was put aside and the Jury only had the evidence that was presented at trial...

The Guilty Plea was not accepted... The only choice the jury had was to find him either Guilty of Murder or Not guilty of murder... Otherwise the fact he had plead guilty in May 2011 would have been entered into evidence... This was NOT!!

If the jury had found him not guilty I believe Dr Vincent Tabak would have walked away a free man as the guilty plea was not applicable...

So nothing that was said at trial implicated Dr Vincent Tabak apart from some half baked story.. There was no evidence to support this story that was told by Dr Vincent Tabak at court.....

I believe that the court would have needed to be shown the Long Lartin video where Dr Vincent Tabak pleads guilty to manslaughter...I do not believe this was ever shown to the Jury or any member of the public for that matter....

So (imo)... The Guilty plea was null and void by the time the trial started....

Therefore you would need evidence of Dr Vincent Tabak's interaction with other females who had experience of him behaving in such a manner, to support the fact that it was part of his character... (imo)

Do the jury really not get to know that he pleaded guilty to manslaughter?

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1134 on: November 13, 2017, 01:58:32 PM »
Do the jury really not get to know that he pleaded guilty to manslaughter?

Of course the jury knew he'd  pleaded guilty to manslaughter----after all, we all knew, didn't we?   That's what the trial was all about: WAS it manslaughter, or was it murder?  There was no option of finding him not guilty full stop, as he had already admitted to manslaughter. Good thing I wasn't on the jury----but then, I suppose, with my views, I wouldn't have got that far, LOL!

Sally Ramage did attend the trial, so I have been told by a reliable source. I don't know much about her. I know she has written several books, and it seems she is well qualified in the law. Actually, she never says that she thinks  Vincent Tabak is innocent, and I have no idea whether or not she does think that. She does, however, highlight what she thinks was wrong with his trial.

As you say, Baz, perhaps various women did come forward with complaints about Vincent's behaviour towards women.  If they did, I am very surprised that at least some of this was not picked up by the newspapers. This kind of info would have bolstered the prosecution's case far better (IMO) than vague stories about American escorts (who may or may not have existed, and who were never traced by the police), and so called "evidence" from VT's computers, which needed to have been seen by the defence as well as by the prosecution  to appear credible.  After all, anyone could borrow my computer and say there was porn on it. There might be, and there might not be-----who would know for sure?

Offline Baz

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1135 on: November 13, 2017, 02:25:02 PM »
Of course the jury knew he'd  pleaded guilty to manslaughter----after all, we all knew, didn't we?   That's what the trial was all about: WAS it manslaughter, or was it murder?  There was no option of finding him not guilty full stop, as he had already admitted to manslaughter. Good thing I wasn't on the jury----but then, I suppose, with my views, I wouldn't have got that far, LOL!

I did think it sounded strange that the jury wouldn't know this. It would make his lawyers' defense ("I'm not trying to convince you he's a good guy" very odd.

Quote
Sally Ramage did attend the trial, so I have been told by a reliable source. I don't know much about her. I know she has written several books, and it seems she is well qualified in the law. Actually, she never says that she thinks  Vincent Tabak is innocent, and I have no idea whether or not she does think that. She does, however, highlight what she thinks was wrong with his trial.
If she was at the trial it makes her mistakes even odder, to me. Why would she say Brotherton didn't testify if she was there and heard him testify without any explanation? As for her qualifications... I can't find where she says she received her qualifications. I'm just not convinced she's a reliable source. I apologise in advance if I am wrong.

Quote
As you say, Baz, perhaps various women did come forward with complaints about Vincent's behaviour towards women.  If they did, I am very surprised that at least some of this was not picked up by the newspapers. This kind of info would have bolstered the prosecution's case far better (IMO) than vague stories about American escorts (who may or may not have existed, and who were never traced by the police), and so called "evidence" from VT's computers, which needed to have been seen by the defence as well as by the prosecution  to appear credible.  After all, anyone could borrow my computer and say there was porn on it. There might be, and there might not be-----who would know for sure?

True, we probably would have heard if there were numerous accusations of creepy behaviour from other women. He  pleaded guilty to the computer crimes, so I think it's safe to say he was responsible for the presence of the disturbing images.

Can I ask Mrswah, why you think he pleaded guilty and has not protested his innocence? I have never had a reasonable answer to this.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2017, 05:12:18 PM by Baz »

Offline mrswah

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Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1136 on: November 13, 2017, 03:19:04 PM »
I doubt if I am going to give you a "reasonable answer" either, Baz, but I will give you an answer, for what it's worth. I will not be at all offended if you don't agree with me either, as hardly anyone does!

I suspect that VT was questioned non-stop until he went somewhat mad, OR drugged in prison, OR told he had done things that he hadn't done----until he came to believe this himself. He may well be mentally ill.  I think, at the time he pleaded guilty, he probably did believe he had killed Jo. For all I know, he still might think so.

Why doesn't he protest his innocence now?  I think he probably believes he is guilty, OR he is too depressed/ill to care. He has lost his girlfriend and his career, so perhaps he cannot face a long appeals process. Who knows? Perhaps he no longer cares what happens to him. I would imagine prison life is a nightmare to him----possibly, he half thinks he's dreaming it, who knows?

If he is now mentally ill, the fact that he is of above average intelligence won't do very much for him.

I have tried to contact him-----he has not said he does not want to hear from me: he just says nothing at all. No response. He might be dead, for all I know.

On the other hand, you, John, and all the other people who believe that he wouldn't have pleaded guilty unless he actually  was guilty might be right, and (as I'm always saying), I might be wrong.


Offline [...]

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1137 on: November 13, 2017, 03:38:46 PM »
Well Baz...

Everyone in the country should be tickerty boo with our justice system, if this trial has anything to go by.... A Defence Council who never Defended their Client... A judge who ignored, the badgering of said Defendant..

A jury that was mislead and told untruths.... CCTV that was never used to establish who was on Canygne Road over that weekend... which also this said CCTV should have had the last images of Joanna Yeates upon it if she had indeed reached home... But Colin Port says at the Leveson the last known images of Joanna Yeates was at the hophouse pub... Clearly telling us she never reached her home...

Flat 1.. That was tampered with evidence in Flat 1, to the point of laughability when they go as far as painting the kitchen tiles for us all to see...

DRA Builders... who have no forensic experience, but were used......their forensic protocol going out of the window, as they rip gaffer tape with their teeth and have Forensic Gloves on with a huge hole in the fingers whilst wiping their noses and constantly putting their hands in their grubby pockets ...

Tanja Morson being mentioned over 30 times in court and her text responses to Dr Vincent Tabak, yet she was not called as a witness nor did she provide a statement to the court... (That being illegal as far as i am aware)... she should have either attended or provided confirmation to the court....

No Psychiatric Evaluation of Dr Vincent Tabak ever being presented in court....

The Judge adding 5 more years to Dr Vincent Tabak sentence, when the aggravating factors didn't come under the laws guidance for these factors..

No good character evidence being given in Dr Vincent Tabak's defence....

No application for bail being entered into...

20 witness's that didn't appear in court, but had there statements read out to the jury...

No proper cross examination of witness's.....

If this is your idea of Justice and a fair and right trial that proves a defendant guilty of a Crime... All I can really say is our country is in a sorry state of affairs... And as we have seen they have gotten away with these actions and no-one gives a flying fig about it...

No-one then has the right to complain if this unjust tactic is served upon them or any of their relatives, because everyone basically has condoned the actions of The Judge, The Prosecution and The Defence in this case..

I for one do not need to prove whether you think Sally Ramage is qualified or not... Even without her paper, it is clear to see the "Miscarriage of Justice " that has happened in this case...

Like leonora has said time and time again... This was a show trial..... not only that i will add ... they appear to be playing parts from any tv show or sitcom and pull it together to create what they deem as a trial....

I still cannot get past the fact I had seen DCI Phil Jones before I ever saw him at the media conferences... Also one of the detectives accompanying Rebecca Scott to court looks familiar... It's like they are actors and have had bit part in something... Thats what I get from them.... We also have DCI Phil Jones LinkedIn picture from Points West that doesn't look like the DCI Jones we Know....

So if this was made up of actors... was the jury real everyday people, that had genuinely been picked for jury service.... What was this appalling trial about??

You may think I sound mad... But not half as mad as the protocol and disregarding of laws that happened in this case... To put a Placid Dutchman away for life, without any evidence to back up what he said at trial....


Edit.... I will add that they all knew that Dr Vincent Tabak was Innocent... They would not have so flagrantly ignored the law and it's protocols, if Dr Vincent Tabak could appeal against a loop hole within the law and find a way in which his conviction could be quashed...

Why would they make everything so obvious as for someone like me who has no experience can see what they did....

Would they really want a killer on the streets through there lack of protocol, there disregard for the law and their client... I do not believe so...

That should tell everyone that Dr Vincent Tabak is Innocent of this crime... and there is another reason that they put him away for life... The real Killer had some kind of immunity (imo) and maybe like people have suggested... Dr Vincent Tabak is in Holland... on some kind of deal.... But that doesnt take away the fact that they took the complete PI out of our system that is there for us to rely upon when we had real villians about in the community....

Do not know what their game was... But they must think the public completely stupid to fall for that outrage....!!!


Offline Baz

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1138 on: November 13, 2017, 04:45:58 PM »
I doubt if I am going to give you a "reasonable answer" either, Baz, but I will give you an answer, for what it's worth. I will not be at all offended if you don't agree with me either, as hardly anyone does!

I suspect that VT was questioned non-stop until he went somewhat mad, OR drugged in prison, OR told he had done things that he hadn't done----until he came to believe this himself. He may well be mentally ill.  I think, at the time he pleaded guilty, he probably did believe he had killed Jo. For all I know, he still might think so.

Why doesn't he protest his innocence now?  I think he probably believes he is guilty, OR he is too depressed/ill to care. He has lost his girlfriend and his career, so perhaps he cannot face a long appeals process. Who knows? Perhaps he no longer cares what happens to him. I would imagine prison life is a nightmare to him----possibly, he half thinks he's dreaming it, who knows?

If he is now mentally ill, the fact that he is of above average intelligence won't do very much for him.

I have tried to contact him-----he has not said he does not want to hear from me: he just says nothing at all. No response. He might be dead, for all I know.

On the other hand, you, John, and all the other people who believe that he wouldn't have pleaded guilty unless he actually  was guilty might be right, and (as I'm always saying), I might be wrong.

Thanks for the response. I enjoyed reading it. I can see, from a certain perspective, that is one way to reason out how someone can be forced to plead guilty o a crime they didn't commit. There are certainly plenty of examples of false confessions. But, for me, your answer is more than a simple false confession. For instance, from what I have read, false confessions are usually given to the interviewers in a desperate attempt to end an interrogation not in a private meeting with a prison chaplain. If he had been somehow drugged or tortured into lying wouldn't those around him have a noticed a change in his behaviour?

Also, why is it believable that a man who has shown no sign of mental illness previously would so suddenly develop such an acute case that he can believe he has murdered when he has not but you are unwilling to believe that a man can be a killer without showing any previous behaviour to point to this possibility? (Does that make sense? I think I confused myself even whilst writing it!) Surely there would be some indiciators of mental illness/deviant behaviour that we can point to in hindsight (eg the pornography!) but I see nothing to indicate  fragile mental health. Also, and this may be naive, but why would all the people it would take in all those different departments and places all agree to drug him/torture him etc to get a lie?

I did read your attempts to get in touch, and I am tempted to try myself. I did some research and the find a prisoner government site requires that I indicate my reason for wanting to find him... what did you say? I think I will say "Interested in initiating a correspondence" Did you provide his date of birth as requested (and can I have it so I can make a request?)

Offline Baz

Re: The Defence Will State Their Case
« Reply #1139 on: November 13, 2017, 04:48:47 PM »
Like leonora has said time and time again... This was a show trial..... not only that i will add ... they appear to be playing parts from any tv show or sitcom and pull it together to create what they deem as a trial....

I still cannot get past the fact I had seen DCI Phil Jones before I ever saw him at the media conferences... Also one of the detectives accompanying Rebecca Scott to court looks familiar... It's like they are actors and have had bit part in something... Thats what I get from them.... We also have DCI Phil Jones LinkedIn picture from Points West that doesn't look like the DCI Jones we Know....

So if this was made up of actors... was the jury real everyday people, that had genuinely been picked for jury service.... What was this appalling trial about??

You may think I sound mad... But not half as mad as the protocol and disregarding of laws that happened in this case... To put a Placid Dutchman away for life, without any evidence to back up what he said at trial....

Honestly, and respectfully, the idea that they used actors as the police and the jury does sound a little mad.