UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Ben Needham from the village of Iraklise on the Greek island of Kos on 24 July 1991. => Topic started by: John on October 17, 2016, 12:54:40 AM
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Police search for Ben ends.
Police investigating the disappearance of toddler Ben Needham in Kos have concluded their three-week search for information on the Greek island.
(http://cdn.images.dailystar.co.uk/dynamic/1/photos/323000/620x/Ben-Needham-dig-553981.jpg)
Ben, from Sheffield, was 21 months old when he disappeared on 24 July 1991.
Searches have taken place over the past 21 days after it emerged he may have been accidentally killed by a digger driver.
More than 800 tonnes of soil was dug up, with items of interest sent back to the UK for forensic analysis.
Det Insp John Cousins, who is leading the investigation, said: "I've got the confidence that we have done exactly what we can, given the plans we had before we came out here so that I can give an answer, whatever that might be, to Ben's family."
He said he was proud of his team: "It has been a difficult job, the conditions have been extremely hot and very dusty and they are long hours they have been working."
The Help Find Ben Needham campaign thanked South Yorkshire Police, Hellenic search and rescue workers and the media for their work over the past three weeks.
Image caption Items of interest have been sent back to the UK for forensic analysis
Police are expected to hold a briefing on Monday for a further update on the progress of the search.
(http://i.imgur.com/tmYJSQg.jpg)
Ben vanished from a farmhouse, which his grandfather was renovating, in the village of Iraklis.
Officers are working on the theory that Konstantinos Barkas, who died of cancer in 2015, might be responsible for Ben's death.
Image caption Ben Needham went missing on the Greek island of Kos in July 1991 when he was 21 months old
Over the past three weeks, digs took place near the farmhouse where he was last seen and a second site 750m away.
A team of 19 South Yorkshire Police officers, forensic specialists, an archaeologist and search and rescue personnel have been excavating the area as a result of a television appeal in May, which brought the theory about Mr Barkas to the attention of the force.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-37671368
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Ben Needham search: Mother 'in limbo and can't say goodbye'.
(http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/1121741/stream_img.jpg)
The mother of Ben Needham feels "in limbo" and "can't say goodbye" after a renewed police search to find the missing toddler failed to find him.
A three-week search involving members of South Yorkshire Police on the Greek island of Kos - where Ben disappeared in 1991 - ended on Sunday.
Police are yet to find Ben while a full update from the latest update is set to take place on Monday.
Ben's mother, Kerry Needham, claimed she has now been urged by police to end her 25-year search.
But she insisted she can't say goodbye knowing her son is "still on that island somewhere".
(http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/1121743/stream_img.jpg)
Kerry Needham has searched for her son for 25 years.
Speaking to the Daily Mirror, Ms Needham, whose son disappeared after travelling to Kos with his mother and grandparents, said the latest results had left her "in limbo".
"They know he's dead but just can't find him. Police said it's time we ended our 25-year search", she said.
"They are right but I can't say goodbye knowing he's still on that island somewhere. I feel physically sick. I can't feel any worse than I do.
"He didn't leave Kos, he didn't walk away ... Somebody didn't take him, so he's here somewhere. They believe he is there but they can't dig in everyone's gardens or homes that have been built over the years.
"I want to tear up the whole island to find him".
(http://news.images.itv.com/image/file/1121742/stream_img.jpg)
The latest search operation was prompted by information that a digger driver, Konstantinos Barkas, may have been responsible for Ben's death, as he was clearing land near where the toddler had been playing on the day he vanished.
Mr Barkas is believed to have died from stomach cancer last year.
South Yorkshire Police said on Sunday: "The physical search of two sites on Kos, Greece, has formally come to an end.
"Work continues behind the scenes as officers begin to process the findings from each site".
During the search, officers accumulated more than 60 items of interest which will be brought back to the UK for examination.
http://www.itv.com/news/2016-10-16/ben-needham-search-mother-in-limbo-and-cant-say-goodbye/
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I am not surprised to be honest. Again the police are acting on information from a friend of a friend, who has passed away and cannot actually confirm one way or the other if it could have been true.
I feel he is further away from the area just a feeling i have had. I dont think money has been wasted, i think they should have more and send in the dogs.
Weren't the dogs noticeable by their absence?
The perfect opportunity for CSI dogs and not one was deployed. Instead we have plod raking through rubble trying to spot something of interest whereas a properly trained cadaver dog would have swooped in immediately on any human remains.
Despite no proof whatsoever the blame game has begun!!
'I hope he’s burning in hell': Ben Needham's mum slams digger driver who 'took secret to his grave'.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-hope-hes-burning-hell-9060236
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Headline on news, Police say Ben died in accident.
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Headline on news, Police say Ben died in accident.
There is no proof of this, merely speculation and another man very possibly wrongly accused.
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A couple of points in respect of these latest reports.
There is no reason to believe any item discovered in a tip some 25 years after Ben disappeared got there by sinister means. South Yorkshire Police are being extremely coy in relation to their find which most probably was a toy and not clothing. Children play in mounds of earth and sand all the time so in the absence of any real evidence this find is hardly significant.
The second point relates to the ending of the search and the announcement of a find. Why announce anything and why now? Why start a media frenzy at all? One could be forgiven for thinking that SYP needed something to bring closure to this event and pointing the finger at some dead digger driver was all too convenient. In fact, can anyone see a similarity with another case?
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I must say I'm amazed at these recent events, what an awful way to conduct an investigation.
South Yorkshire Police have failed to identify any human remains or bloodstained clothing as far as we are aware so abduction still cannot be ruled out. As for this 'item of significance' it could have been innocently buried by Ben while playing and thereafter moved during excavation works. I fear SYP have opened up a huge can of worms by suggesting that Constantine Barkas ran this child over and thereafter hid the child's body. Could be grounds for litigation.
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Weren't the dogs noticeable by their absence?
The perfect opportunity for CSI dogs and not one was deployed. Instead we have plod raking through rubble trying to spot something of interest whereas a properly trained cadaver dog would have swooped in immediately on any human remains.
Despite no proof whatsoever the blame game has begun!!
'I hope he’s burning in hell': Ben Needham's mum slams digger driver who 'took secret to his grave'.
www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/i-hope-hes-burning-hell-9060236
As more than 100 skeletons and numerous bits of bone were dug up during this search what good do you think a dog would have been?
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I must say I'm amazed at these recent events, what an awful way to conduct an investigation.
South Yorkshire Police have failed to identify any human remains or clothing with blood on it as far as we are aware so abduction still cannot be ruled out. As for this 'item of significance' it could have been innocently buried by Ben while playing and thereafter moved during excavation works. I fear SYP have opened up a huge can of worms by suggesting that Constantine Barkas ran this child over and thereafter hid body. Could be grounds for litigation.
Litigation by whom exactly?! The Met get credible intelligence that this man accidentally killed Ben and are supposed to what? Sit on it? Keep quiet? Do nothing?
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Litigation by whom exactly?! The Met get credible intelligence that this man accidentally killed Ben and are supposed to what? Sit on it? Keep quiet? Do nothing?
It is not a cop's brief to make public accusations of criminality against any person live or dead on national TV. If they have proof let them bring it out otherwise they should keep shtum.
By suggesting that Ben was run over by a digger, DI Cousins has publicly implicated digger driver Constantine Barkas in his death.
(http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8845061.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Digger-driver-Konstantinos-Barkas.jpg)
Digger driver at centre of Ben Needham police probe was
successful businessman who 'knew everyone on the island'
Despite his wealth Dino spent many days in the cab of his huge digger.
He was clearing access for a delivery of concrete on the day Ben went missing, on a building site just 100 yards from the farmhouse where the toddler was playing in the village of Iraklis.
When quizzed by the Daily Mirror in 2012 he said: “Yes, I was the man with the JCB that day.
Loads of earth were being taken to clear the ground for the new house down the road.
“I think people were misled in thinking the child was abducted. Could there have been an accident?
"I don’t think so, but no one really knows what happened.” But Dino later insisted to his close family that Ben had been abducted.
It has been claimed Ben could have been killed in an accident but his body then removed from the scene and buried elsewhere.
British police have been looking into the timetable of events leading up to Ben’s disappearance.
After Dino’s death last year a new witness told police there were two areas of land where building waste had been dumped by Dino which had never been searched.
Son Valandis Barkas, 29, said: “My dad lived his life with this hanging over him and I cannot believe they are still hounding him even after his death.
"He had nothing to do with Ben’s disappearance. Towards the end he was a very ill man, and he was very concerned and worried about everything to do with Ben coming back. It upset him a lot.
"My mother is very, very tired. She lost her husband and now she has to go through all this.
"When the British police came here he went up there to the site to help them.
"He told them they could look as much as they want but they would not find the little boy there.
“As far as I know the boy was abducted. That’s what my dad always said and that’s what our family still believe today.
"My father was a very good, honest man. My dad always told the police and prosecutors that there wasn’t an accident.
"He said the boy was taken away and almost certainly taken to Athens.”
He added: “I hope that Ben is still alive. As a father myself I cannot imagine what his mother is going through.”
He said his father died from cirrhosis of the liver after suffering from intestinal problems for some time.
Dino’s brother Ioannis branded the renewed investigation “disgusting”.
He said: “My brother is dead – he cannot defend himself. Why don’t they let his soul rest in peace.
“I don’t understand why they are still chasing Dino. Are they going to take a dead man in to court?”
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/digger-driver-centre-ben-needham-8852737
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It is not a cop's brief to make public accusations of criminality against any person live or dead on national TV. If they have proof let them bring it out otherwise they should keep shtum.
By suggesting that Ben was run over by a digger, DI Cousins has publicly implicated digger driver Constantine Barkas in his death.
(http://i2.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article8845061.ece/ALTERNATES/s615b/Digger-driver-Konstantinos-Barkas.jpg)
Digger driver at centre of Ben Needham police probe was
successful businessman who 'knew everyone on the island'
Despite his wealth Dino spent many days in the cab of his huge digger.
He was clearing access for a delivery of concrete on the day Ben went missing, on a building site just 100 yards from the farmhouse where the toddler was playing in the village of Iraklis.
When quizzed by the Daily Mirror in 2012 he said: “Yes, I was the man with the JCB that day.
Loads of earth were being taken to clear the ground for the new house down the road.
“I think people were misled in thinking the child was abducted. Could there have been an accident?
"I don’t think so, but no one really knows what happened.” But Dino later insisted to his close family that Ben had been abducted.
It has been claimed Ben could have been killed in an accident but his body then removed from the scene and buried elsewhere.
British police have been looking into the timetable of events leading up to Ben’s disappearance.
After Dino’s death last year a new witness told police there were two areas of land where building waste had been dumped by Dino which had never been searched.
Son Valandis Barkas, 29, said: “My dad lived his life with this hanging over him and I cannot believe they are still hounding him even after his death.
"He had nothing to do with Ben’s disappearance. Towards the end he was a very ill man, and he was very concerned and worried about everything to do with Ben coming back. It upset him a lot.
"My mother is very, very tired. She lost her husband and now she has to go through all this.
"When the British police came here he went up there to the site to help them.
"He told them they could look as much as they want but they would not find the little boy there.
“As far as I know the boy was abducted. That’s what my dad always said and that’s what our family still believe today.
"My father was a very good, honest man. My dad always told the police and prosecutors that there wasn’t an accident.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/digger-driver-centre-ben-needham-8852737
You can't libel the dead. And as a policeman you can name suspects on national TV - I've watched Crimewatch!
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You can't libel the dead. And as a policeman you can name suspects on national TV - I've watched Crimewatch!
Actually Alf, insulting the memory of the dead with cruel or malicious defamation or libel is a criminal offence under Art. 365 of the Greek Criminal Code. It is punishable with imprisonment for up to six months.
Naming suspects is one thing but this went further.
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Actually Alf, insulting the memory of the dead with cruel or malicious defamation or libel is a criminal offence under Art. 365 of the Greek Criminal Code. It is punishable with imprisonment for up to six months.
Naming suspects is one thing but this went further.
In what way? I don't really think you can accuse the Met of cruelty or being malicious - they were acting on credible evidence, I really don't know what you expected them to do tbh.
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In what way? I don't really think you can accuse the Met of cruelty or being malicious - they were acting on credible evidence, I really don't know what you expected them to do tbh.
Defamation of the dead is illegal in Greece.
They found one of Ben's old toys at the second site which somehow equates to a tragic accident and a cover up? No proof, just a professional belief!
What I would expect from a professional police officer is professionalism and not some half baked story which will fit with the hearsay and gossips. How dare they tell the Needham's they can stop searching now!
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Defamation of the dead is illegal in Greece.
They found one of Ben's old toys at the second site which somehow equates to a tragic accident and a cover up? No proof, just a professional belief!
What I would expect from a professional police officer is professionalism and not some half baked story which will fit with the hearsay and gossips. How dare they tell the Needham's they can stop searching now!
The Needhams seem to have accepted that Ben is dead and was killed by the digger driver, perhaps they know details about this that the rest of us don't. As far as I'm aware the Needhams don't have any complaints about the police's professionalism.
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From the official Find Ben Needham facebook page:
Help Find Ben Needham
Yesterday at 12:27 ·
South Yorkshire Police, Operation Ben team, the Hellenic Search and Rescue team, huge thank you to each and everyone of you.
Also to the media that has followed the case of missing Ben Needham for the last 25 years and special thank you to the ITV Calendar News team who have been consistently by the Needham family's side since the beginning in 1991. xXx
-----------**picture copyright ITVCalendarNews**----------
Please everyone remember the items found will now be analysed,
so although there may seem to be no answers as yet hopefully we should have news on what exactly was found soon.
This search wasn't done on a whim after just ONE witness statement.
The Operation Ben team were already following this line of enquiry after going through 25 years of information and witness statements.
The new witness statement just corroborated the info SYP already had and was a targeted search - not a wild goose chase.
The Police and the Hellenic Search and Rescue team have our utmost respect and can't really thank them enough.
As Kerry has already said- they are heroes.
The Hellenic Search and Rescue team are all volunteers , please donate if you can via the link
https://www.justgiving.com/crowdfunding/hannah-bryan
The police will brief media tomorrow xXx
#BenNeedham #HelpFindBen
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Why were cadaver dogs not employed to find his grave?
When we are led to believe that the jcb driver accidentally killed him and buried his body nearby?
That action is more or less a standard one
This case remains in the air as far as Im concerned
whatever Mr Cousins decrees
If there is real intelligence and proof he should have declared every detail...poor...3/10
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Why were cadaver dogs not employed to find his grave?
When we are led to believe that the jcb driver accidentally killed him and buried his body nearby?
That action is more or less a standard one
This case remains in the air as far as Im concerned
whatever Mr Cousins decrees
If there is real intelligence and proof he should have declared every detail...poor...3/10
I agree mercury and it will only be a matter of time before the Needhams come to realise this too. I have seen situations like this develop many time previously and I'm very sure they are extremely grateful for the help which South Yorkshire Police have afforded them albeit 25 years too late. In the meantime they need time to pause for thought and to remember Ben. Our blessings are with them.
This case is far from solved.
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Not sure john how anyone is allowing cousins to get away with that pile of crap oh well
No evidence of a fatal accident
No evidence of a cover up burial
No body
Youd thnk police would have an iota of evidence...where is it!
And the elephant in the room is why no cadaver dogs?
Why were they employed in the MM case and not HERE when a known relevant place was identified?
whats the matter with these people???
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A small Matchbox toy car similiar to that depicted below and believed to have been in the possession of the missing child shortly before his disappearance was found at the secondary tipping site some half mile away from the family home. No sign of the missing child was found by the searchers.
The suggestion by British police that Ben was run over by a mechanical digger remains an unproven possibility among many possibilities despite the media frenzy for a big headline.
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article9064849.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/DO-NOT-USE-TILL-1030-I161017_143330_484544oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000102539852o.jpg)
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A small Matchbox toy car similiar to that depicted below and believed to have been in the possession of the missing child shortly before his disappearance was found at the secondary tipping site some half mile away from the family home. No sign of the missing child was found by the searchers.
The suggestion by British police that Ben was run over by a mechanical digger remains an unproven possibility among many possibilities despite the media frenzy for a big headline.
(http://i1.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article9064849.ece/ALTERNATES/s615/DO-NOT-USE-TILL-1030-I161017_143330_484544oTextTRMRMMGLPICT000102539852o.jpg)
Your explanation that Ben may have buried this toy (where?) on the day he went missing and then it just so happened to turn up half a mile a way in a place where the digger driver's accusers suggested he may have disposed of the body (unwittingly or otherwise) is stretching credibility. I would describe it as very strong circumstantial evidence to support the accusers' claims.
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One can't help but think that if only the Met had people from this forum advising them on how to conduct their searches all these missing people cases would have been solved years ago!
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Your explanation that Ben may have buried this toy (where?) on the day he went missing and then it just so happened to turn up half a mile a way in a place where the digger driver's accusers suggested he may have disposed of the body (unwittingly or otherwise) is stretching credibility. I would describe it as very strong circumstantial evidence to support the accusers' claims.
I'm catching up on events today but it isn't rocket science to work out that the toy car was probably left in a spoil heap by the old farmhouse and later moved when rubble was transferred to the secondary tip. All very innocent of course and in no way by itself implicates anyone in any crime imo.
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One can't help but think that if only the Met had people from this forum advising them on how to conduct their searches all these missing people cases would have been solved years ago!
It has taken 25 years to reach this point which in itself is disgraceful.
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I'm catching up on events today but it isn't rocket science to work out that the toy car was probably left in a spoil heap by the old farmhouse and later moved when rubble was transferred to the secondary tip. All very innocent of course and in no way by itself implicates anyone in any crime imo.
The biggest problem I have with DCI Cousins and his 'professional belief' is that it is not based on actual proof of any sort. It is merely an opinion, he no more knows what happened to Ben than any of us do. In time Ben's family will come to see this.
Speaking on ITV this morning, Ben's sister Leigh-Anna Needham laughed off any suggestion that the discovery of a toy car would bring the investigation to an end. She added that many children had stayed on the site over the last 25 years and that the family weren't even sure if the toy found actually belonged to Ben never mind the suggestion that it was in his possession the day he disappeared. Leigh-Anna has sworn to continue the search for her missing brother and admits to being disappointed at the outcome after having been told by police to prepare for the worst.
http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/ben-needhams-sister-leigh-anna-we-arent-completely-sure-the-car-is-his
(http://i.imgur.com/RIemXTD.jpg)
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I'm catching up on events today but it isn't rocket science to work out that the toy car was probably left in a spoil heap by the old farmhouse and later moved when rubble was transferred to the secondary tip. All very innocent of course and in no way by itself implicates anyone in any crime imo.
How was it "probably left in a spoil heap by the old farmhouse?" If Ben had the toy with him at the time of his disappearance how is your scenario MORE probable than that he had an accident and his remains buried elsewhere? After all, you're a keen believer in a similar fate befalling Madeleine McCann but curiously resistant to the idea that it happened to Ben? Can you explain how you arrived at your "not rocket science" conclusion, particularly as you don't know all the facts of this case?
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It has taken 25 years to reach this point which in itself is disgraceful.
And who is to blame for that?
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The biggest problem I have with DCI Cousins and his 'professional belief' is that it is not based on actual proof of any sort. It is merely an opinion, he no more knows what happened to Ben than any of us do. In time Ben's family will come to see this.
Speaking on ITV this morning, Ben's sister Leigh-Anna Needham laughed off any suggestion that the discovery of a toy car would bring the investigation to an end. She added that many children had stayed on the site over the last 25 years and that the family weren't even sure if the toy found actually belonged to Ben never mind the suggestion that it was in his possession the day he disappeared. Leigh-Anna has sworn to continue the search for her missing brother and admits to being disappointed at the outcome after having been told by police to prepare for the worst.
http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/ben-needhams-sister-leigh-anna-we-arent-completely-sure-the-car-is-his
Well that does put a different complexion on it, admittedly.
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How was it "probably left in a spoil heap by the old farmhouse?" If Ben had the toy with him at the time of his disappearance how is your scenario MORE probable than that he had an accident and his remains buried elsewhere? After all, you're a keen believer in a similar fate befalling Madeleine McCann but curiously resistant to the idea that it happened to Ben? Can you explain how you arrived at your "not rocket science" conclusion, particularly as you don't know all the facts of this case?
The little car was lost to the spoil heap by a child, it happens all the time when kids take their small cars outside to play.
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And who is to blame for that?
UK authorities who failed to carry out this work decades ago.
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UK authorities who failed to carry out this work decades ago.
So, not the Greek authorities then?
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The little car was lost to the spoil heap by a child, it happens all the time when kids take their small cars outside to play.
If the car belonged to Ben Needham then I'd want to know where is this spoil heap of which you talk, what was Ben doing by it when he dropped the car, and what happened afterwards to cause him to a) disappear and b) for the car to re-surface half a mile away. Do you think the story of him being killed in an accident and buried (unwittingly or not) by the digger driver is implausible?
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One can't help but think that if only the Met had people from this forum advising them on how to conduct their searches all these missing people cases would have been solved years ago!
Stupid comment
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What really troubles me ... I cant get over the fact that in both The Madeleine case and The Ben case, someone fingered a dead man who used to drive an earth mover.
1. A dead man ... so no questioning of him
2. The Dead man was the driver of an earth mover / digger ... so no point in looking, Ben could be hidden in hundreds of places really deeply down. Mission impossible in effect
Cue to stop the search, too many places to be possible to search.
If my suspicions could be true, what a clever way to stop the search for a missing child ... and get away with the crime!
I agree with John (and God forbid, Angelo ... soz Angelo), I have hope that Ben could well be still alive
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The case rests on if he was accidentally killed and buried elsewhere (nearby) by the innocent driver
Or if he was accidentallly killed and not known he was
Either way his body lies nearby which is why i dont understand that no cadaver dogs were sent in ndy cousins seems so assured of ehat happened with NO evidence
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If the car belonged to Ben Needham then I'd want to know where is this spoil heap of which you talk, what was Ben doing by it when he dropped the car, and what happened afterwards to cause him to a) disappear and b) for the car to re-surface half a mile away. Do you think the story of him being killed in an accident and buried (unwittingly or not) by the digger driver is implausible?
I think it is plausible but not provable. There are a thousand and one ways in which that little matchbox toy car got into that tip. I'm so glad that Ben's sister Leigh-Anna Needham spoke out yesterday morning and set the record straight instead of repeating the crap put out by the cops. 8@??)(
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What really troubles me ... I cant get over the fact that in both The Madeleine case and The Ben case, someone fingered a dead man who used to drive an earth mover.
1. A dead man ... so no questioning of him
2. The Dead man was the driver of an earth mover / digger ... so no point in looking, Ben could be hidden in hundreds of places really deeply down. Mission impossible in effect
Cue to stop the search, too many places to be possible to search.
If my suspicions could be true, what a clever way to stop the search for a missing child ... and get away with the crime!
I agree with John (and God forbid, Angelo ... soz Angelo), I have hope that Ben could well be still alive
I agree Sadie, this blaming the dead guy has become a favourite pastime in police circles. A sure fire way of killing off any further investigation.
I find it rather sinister that the VRD's werent broght in as mercury susggests, they would at least have identified human blood and flesh from years back. Maybe the budget wouldn't stretch that far?
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I agree Sadie, this blaming the dead guy has become a favourite pastime in police circles. A sure fire way of killing off any further investigation.
I find it rather sinister that the VRD's werent broght in as mercury susggests, they would at least have identified human blood and flesh from years back. Maybe the budget wouldn't stretch that far?
Sinister? You seem to be implying some sort of deliberate ploy to keep Ben's remains from being found. Is it possible that dogs WERE brought in? Do you know for certain that they were not? Are there any circumstances when using dogs may have simply not provided any benefits? There were over a hundred skeletons dug up during these searches apparently without the aid of dogs, had the dogs been they would presumably have been barking non-stop. Why don't you ask Martin Grime for his opinion about this? He is after all presumably not bound by judicial secrecy on this case!
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I agree Sadie, this blaming the dead guy has become a favourite pastime in police circles. A sure fire way of killing off any further investigation.
I find it rather sinister that the VRD's werent broght in as mercury susggests, they would at least have identified human blood and flesh from years back. Maybe the budget wouldn't stretch that far?
"Blaming the dead guy". The police receive intelligence that "the dead guy" was involved, information that only comes out after his death. What do you suggest they do with this information? Ignore it because he's dead? Do you seriously think the police who have invested years of time and money and not i considerable emotional investment in this case just want to pin it on the nearest dead guy? Are the police generally that crap and unethical? Kerry Needham seems to think they have been amazing, who are you to claim they have behaved unprofessionally and neglectfully?
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It's probably worth repeating:
The Operation Ben team were already following this line of enquiry after going through 25 years of information and witness statements.
The new witness statement just corroborated the info SYP already had and was a targeted search - not a wild goose chase.
The Police and the Hellenic Search and Rescue team have our utmost respect and can't really thank them enough.
From the Official Help Find Ben Needham FB page.
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"Blaming the dead guy". The police receive intelligence that "the dead guy" was involved, information that only comes out after his death. What do you suggest they do with this information? Ignore it because he's dead? Do you seriously think the police who have invested years of time and money and not i considerable emotional investment in this case just want to pin it on the nearest dead guy? Are the police generally that crap and unethical? Kerry Needham seems to think they have been amazing, who are you to claim they have behaved unprofessionally and neglectfully?
That is in fact not true, there were rumours of a tragic accident even back 25 years ago. And yes, police can be that crap and unethical when the need arises. One must realise that the police are not infallible Alfie.
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It's probably worth repeating:
The Operation Ben team were already following this line of enquiry after going through 25 years of information and witness statements.
The new witness statement just corroborated the info SYP already had and was a targeted search - not a wild goose chase.
The Police and the Hellenic Search and Rescue team have our utmost respect and can't really thank them enough.
From the Official Help Find Ben Needham FB page.
Just to repeat, the information provided amounted to nothing more than a suspicion. Constantinos Barkas has always denied involvement in any accident involving Ben Needham.
http://www.itv.com/goodmorningbritain/news/ben-needhams-sister-leigh-anna-we-arent-completely-sure-the-car-is-his
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That is in fact not true, there were rumours of a tragic accident even back 25 years ago. And yes, police can be that crap and unethical when the need arises. One must realise that the police are not infallible Alfie.
What is in fact not true and what need has arisen?
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What is in fact not true and what need has arisen?
This bit
The police receive intelligence that "the dead guy" was involved, information that only comes out after his death.
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This bit
OK, splitting hairs - ADDITIONAL information then. I'm surprised you're so resistant to the possibility that Ben met his fate in this way, when you're fairly adamant something similar happened to Madeleine. A little boy with a fascination for diggers (like most little boys) is left unattended outside, near where diggers are operating and goes missing. Nothing is seen of him again, but there are rumours and finally a witness comes forward with more specific information and after an extensive search of an area where one of the digger operators was known to have deposited spoil from the site near the child's home a child's toy car is found, one that his family are 90% certain is Ben's. The police can't say what definitely happened but based on the available evidence they have strong grounds to believe that Ben was killed in an accident and his body buried (unwittingly on not, they don't know). Which bit of this do you find unlikely / unbelievable? If it didn't happen this way, what evidence do you have pointing to any alternative scenario? How much more searching do you think the police should undertake and what and where exactly should they be searching?
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A couple of points in respect of these latest reports.
There is no reason to believe any item discovered in a tip some 25 years after Ben disappeared got there by sinister means. South Yorkshire Police are being extremely coy in relation to their find which most probably was a toy and not clothing. Children play in mounds of earth and sand all the time so in the absence of any real evidence this find is hardly significant.
The second point relates to the ending of the search and the announcement of a find. Why announce anything and why now? Why start a media frenzy at all? One could be forgiven for thinking that SYP needed something to bring closure to this event and pointing the finger at some dead digger driver was all too convenient. In fact, can anyone see a similarity with another case?
Kerry has, herself, identified the toy they found as Ben's.
I am inclined to agree that use of sniffer dogs might well have aided the search and I'm not sure why none was brought in.
But I think identification of the toy strongly suggests police are on the right track.
Obviously I feel dreadfully sorry for Kerry.
This is a fairly good article from The Telegraph
An eerie silence fell over a dusty patch of farmland on the Aegean island of Kos on Friday as five days of intensive efforts by British police to find the possible remains of missing toddler Ben Needham came to a jarring halt.
Mechanical diggers and Bobcat excavators lay idle and officers from South Yorkshire police left the site after the owner of the land demanded that the search immediately stop.
Four 1,500-year-old stone tombs were discovered by the British investigation on Thursday and the landowner, Stefanos Troumouhis, was worried that his land would be declared a protected archaeological site and he would be prevented from farming or developing it.
Three hours of intense negotiation ensued between police officers, local magistrates and Mr Troumouhis, who was eventually placated with the promise that the land would remain in his hands.
“I was told officially by the magistrate in Kos that we needed to leave the site. But I’m pleased to say we’re back up and running,” said Detective Inspector Jon Cousins, who is leading the search.
Ben Needham was just 21 months old when he vanished on the holiday island of Kos 25 years ago
Ben Needham was just 21 months old when he vanished CREDIT: HELPFINDBEN.CO.UK
Asked if he was confident that the operation would not be delayed again, he said: “Twenty-five years’ experience as a police officer has taught me to take each day as it comes. In an investigation of this magnitude, you are going to have issues coming from the blindside.”
Mr Troumouhis owns an olive grove adjacent to the farmhouse where Ben was playing when he disappeared on a hot day in July 1991.
The 21-month-old boy was in the care of his grandparents, Eddie and Christine Needham, because his mother, Kerry, who was 19 at the time, had gone to work in a nearby hotel.
The olive grove could be key to the search for Ben because it contains an area of organic decomposition that British experts have not yet been able to identify.
The legal challenge may only have caused a temporary delay in the operation, but it underlined the formidable judicial, forensic and practical challenges faced by the British team as they seek clues as to what exactly happened to Ben, whose family is from Sheffield.
Excavation begins in search of Ben Needham's bodyPlay! 01:09
Police, dressed in crisp blue shorts with dark baseball caps to ward off the intense autumn sunshine, have spent the past week raking through tonnes of bone-dry dust and soil that has been dug up from the property.
They are looking for bones and fragments of bone after a tip-off from an islander in May that Ben may have been accidentally crushed by a digger which was operating on the site, operated by a local builder, Konstantinos ‘Dino’ Barkas. If Mr Barkas did have anything to do with Ben’s death, he took his secret to the grave when he died last year of cirrhosis of the liver at the age of 62.
Detectives revealed this week that they are drawing on the very latest expertise in forensic science, pioneered by an institute known as “the Body Farm” in the US.
Human bodies are left to rot in various different conditions at the facility in Tennessee, which is officially known as the Forensic Anthropology Center. Dozens of bodies are scattered over a two-acre patch of woodland, some left in cars, others tied up in plastic bags and some hanging in nooses – enabling forensic specialists to study exactly how they decompose and what chemicals and nutrients they leave behind as they rot.
“My main task is to identify in space and time the areas associated with Ben’s disappearance. I’m confident we will find traces. It’s just a matter of time,” Dr Karl Harrison, a British forensic archaeologist working with the police, told The Telegraph.
His company, Preston-based Alecto Forensics, has helped identify victims from the mass casualty terrorist attacks of September 2001 in the US and the July 2005 London bombings, as well as victims of massacres in the Balkans and the Haiti earthquake of 2010.
Dr Harrison also worked on the investigation into the 2007 disappearance of Madeleine McCann in Praia da Luz in Portugal, but says the Needham search is easier because it is being conducted over a smaller area – just the field and olive grove either side of the farmhouse.
“As a site, it is relatively unchanged and undeveloped. We are looking for general clutter, from old drinks cans to food packets with English writing on the packaging and children’s toys.”
The challenge by the landowner forced DI Cousins to cancel a trip to see Ben’s mother, Kerry Needham, who is believed to be staying on the Turkish coast, a short ferry ride away from Kos. The purpose of the trip was to explain to her the progress that the British and Greek team have made so far.
In an interview on ITV’s Good Morning Britain on Friday, Kerry’s daughter, Leighanna, 22, who was born after Ben’s disappearance, said the family were braced for the worst – that police will find the remains of the little boy.
"None of us want to believe that they’re going to find something there, because that’s 25 years of fighting and pain and hurt that could have been ended 25 years ago.
"We’re a family that’s lived in hope and what do you when that hope’s all gone? How do you continue when there’s nothing left?” she said.
I don't know why they haven't used dogs, but I'm sure there's a good reason.
Perhaps those, particular, conditions are not best suited to a dog's deployment?
I really don't know.
But I think the article gives a fairly good reflection of something of the background to the difficulties faced in the search for Ben (RIP).
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OK, splitting hairs - ADDITIONAL information then. I'm surprised you're so resistant to the possibility that Ben met his fate in this way, when you're fairly adamant something similar happened to Madeleine. A little boy with a fascination for diggers (like most little boys) is left unattended outside, near where diggers are operating and goes missing. Nothing is seen of him again, but there are rumours and finally a witness comes forward with more specific information and after an extensive search of an area where one of the digger operators was known to have deposited spoil from the site near the child's home a child's toy car is found, one that his family are 90% certain is Ben's. The police can't say what definitely happened but based on the available evidence they have strong grounds to believe that Ben was killed in an accident and his body buried (unwittingly on not, they don't know). Which bit of this do you find unlikely / unbelievable? If it didn't happen this way, what evidence do you have pointing to any alternative scenario? How much more searching do you think the police should undertake and what and where exactly should they be searching?
The digger accident theory is but one. DCI Jon Cousins of South Yorkshire Police provided no PROOF that Ben was run over and that digger operator Constantinos Barkas hid his body, he was out of order to make such an inference.
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Kerry has, herself, identified the toy they found as Ben's.
They weren't sure actually.
As for using dogs they did so back in 2012 without much success but they didn't do extensive excavations at that time.
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The digger accident theory is but one. DCI Jon Cousins of South Yorkshire Police provided no PROOF that Ben was run over and that digger operator Constantinos Barkas hid his body, he was out of order to make such an inference.
On what basis should he have explained the recent digs, and tearing down of property to find Ben's body then? A whim?
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No evidence of death
No evidence the toy found was bens
No evidence that anyone knowingly killed him
No evidence of anyone buryng him
Suck on that alfie
Those are the facts
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No evidence of death
No evidence the toy found was bens
No evidence that anyone knowingly killed him
No evidence of anyone buryng him
Suck on that alfie
Those are the facts
Aside from the penultimate comment I agree.
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Leighanna Needham hopes brother Ben is still alive
(http://vignette3.wikia.nocookie.net/logopedia/images/c/cb/Hallam_FM_logo_2015.png/revision/latest?cb=20150101192900)
Friday 21 October 2016
The sister of missing Sheffield toddler Ben Needham told Hallam the result of the latest digs on Kos was the "worst possible outcome" for the family.
(http://mediastorage.bauermedia.co.uk/49/04947/680e8/81f62/68a99/d558d/97ec3/KOS_778x436.jpg)
Leighanna Needham still has hope that Ben is alive - after he went missing in 1991 on the Greek island.
South Yorkshire Police announced on Monday they think he was killed by a digger - after they found a toy car thought to be his at one of their dig sites.
Leighanna has told us
"We still don't have the answers to a 25 year old nightmare so I think in my eyes this is the certainly the worst outcome."
"We've fought for this since 1991, we're still no closer to finding out the truth. Its very difficult for us."
"We were told to obviously prepare for the worst - we imagined that the worst would have been finding Ben's remains but to be honest I actually think that this is the possible worst scenario."
http://www.hallamfm.co.uk/localnews/leighanna-needham-hopes-brother-ben-is-still-alive/
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Aside from the penultimate comment I agree.
No evidence of death - true
No evidence the toy found was bens - although his family say they are 90% sure it's his.
No evidence that anyone knowingly killed him - except for the testimony of someone known to the alleged "killer".
No evidence of anyone buryng him - as above.
Suck on that alfie - I don't think that's a very appropriate comment in what was (until this point) a fairly civilized discussion - trust Mercury to lower the tone!
Those are the facts - anyone would think I wanted the child dead, the aggression on show from some quarters. The fact is - we don't know all the facts, those closest to the investigation do. I trust them to know what they're doing and the conclusions they have drawn. If you don't then that's fine. Kerry and her parents seem to have accepted it too, even if her daughter has not been able to come to terms with it.
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The question asked a few days back as to why the specialist dogs werent used this time has been passed to the dog expert for comment. He is of the belief it might be because of the archaeological remains found. Alternatively it may be that they were going to dig up everywhere in any event so felt the dogs were redundant.
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No evidence of death - true
No evidence the toy found was bens - although his family say they are 90% sure it's his.
No evidence that anyone knowingly killed him - except for the testimony of someone known to the alleged "killer".
No evidence of anyone buryng him - as above.
Suck on that alfie - I don't think that's a very appropriate comment in what was (until this point) a fairly civilized discussion - trust Mercury to lower the tone!
Those are the facts - anyone would think I wanted the child dead, the aggression on show from some quarters. The fact is - we don't know all the facts, those closest to the investigation do. I trust them to know what they're doing and the conclusions they have drawn. If you don't then that's fine. Kerry and her parents seem to have accepted it too, even if her daughter has not been able to come to terms with it.
Who knows what the family really feel. I'm quite sure Kerry is very grateful to SYP regardless of their failure to end this mystery. That said, I believe Leigh-Anna has told us all we need to know and has been very brave in doing so.
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The question asked a few days back as to why the specialist dogs werent used this time has been passed to the dog expert for comment. He is of the belief it might be because of the archaeological remains found. Alternatively it may be that they were going to dig up everywhere in any event so felt the dogs were redundant.
Well I said that and was ignored. Great minds, eh? 8(0(*
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Well I said that and was ignored. Great minds, eh? 8(0(*
Personally I think they lost an opportunity but it could be down to cost constraints like so many things these days.
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There doesn't seem to be a news section on this sub-forum, so I've picked what looks to me to be the most appropriate thread.
http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-south-yorkshire-40684276 Date today.
Material retrieved from the dig has been shown to be consistent with remnant traces from decayed blood.
The next step is trying to extract DNA.
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The science behind the latest news.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/pioneering-scientific-proof-behind-blood-10858707.amp