Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 638108 times)

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Offline Davel

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6060 on: September 20, 2015, 10:07:52 AM »
I don't think there was ever any doubt that the dogs alerted, was there?

there is according to Grime so I will stick with his opinion

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6061 on: September 20, 2015, 10:11:59 AM »
there is according to Grime so I will stick with his opinion

When did Grime say his dogs didn't alert?
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.

Offline Davel

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6062 on: September 20, 2015, 10:14:06 AM »
When did Grime say his dogs didn't alert?

the question you raised is what did they alert to..grime was asked on two occasions in his rogatory interview to confirm the alert to cadaver odour...he dodged the question on both occasions

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6063 on: September 20, 2015, 11:03:45 AM »
Do you have a cite for the second part of that?

Does this mean that sending samples for DNA testing to the FSS was a waste of time, as the 'evidence' would not be allowed in a Portuguese court, given that it does not meet Portuguese requirements?

The only results from the car were via LCN (as there was insufficient DNA), which isn't used in Portugal.

Rebelo did get the car boot bits retested by the INML when the PJ got them back.



TRANSLATION BY INES
15 Processos Vol XV Page 3891
15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3891
To: The Director
INML
Lisbon

Ref: NUIPC 201/070 GALGS
4th Brigade
Inspector Joao Carlos


Date: 12th December 2007

Subject: Request for Forensic Examination


I am delivering the following to you, a component covered with fibre and a plastic component, both extracted from the luggage boot of the Renault Scenic vehicle used by the parents of Madeleine McCann, material which has already been examined by the forensic lab of the FSS in Birmingham, UK and which was returned to us, requesting your collaboration in the sense of proceeding to carry out the necessary examinations of the material in question, using the appropriate methodology, bearing in mind the detection of eventual biological vestiges that might not have been detected in the first examination that they were subject to.

With compliments

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
Paulo Rebelo


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm


There is only one result that I can find that seems to correspond to the PT test - and which did yield a full DNA profile...


Table 1 - Autosomic STRs of vestigios.
 01-02 -OUTROS APENSOS I - volume II pages 284-299

Only it most definitely isn't Madeleine, as it's from a male. And the male isn't Gerry, as in some of the markers, neither allele corresponds to hers. 

Don't know what happened there. Either the FSS missed it, or the boot piece got contaminated somewhere en route to the INML.





Offline slartibartfast

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6064 on: September 20, 2015, 11:14:48 AM »
the question you raised is what did they alert to..grime was asked on two occasions in his rogatory interview to confirm the alert to cadaver odour...he dodged the question on both occasions

You seem to be be addressing an issue that wasn't raised. Go on, you are really a politician aren't you.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6065 on: September 20, 2015, 11:18:14 AM »
The "undisputed facts" appear to be the basics established during the preliminary phase.


A preliminary hearing (in 5 sessions) occurred, during which was produced the generic preparatory dispatch that declared the plea valid and regular (3)

At the same hearing the undisputed facts were established and the instruction basis was structured, the complaint of the claimants being rejected.

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6066 on: September 20, 2015, 11:25:01 AM »
The only results from the car were via LCN (as there was insufficient DNA), which isn't used in Portugal.

Rebelo did get the car boot bits retested by the INML when the PJ got them back.



TRANSLATION BY INES
15 Processos Vol XV Page 3891
15VOLUMEXVa_Page_3891
To: The Director
INML
Lisbon

Ref: NUIPC 201/070 GALGS
4th Brigade
Inspector Joao Carlos


Date: 12th December 2007

Subject: Request for Forensic Examination


I am delivering the following to you, a component covered with fibre and a plastic component, both extracted from the luggage boot of the Renault Scenic vehicle used by the parents of Madeleine McCann, material which has already been examined by the forensic lab of the FSS in Birmingham, UK and which was returned to us, requesting your collaboration in the sense of proceeding to carry out the necessary examinations of the material in question, using the appropriate methodology, bearing in mind the detection of eventual biological vestiges that might not have been detected in the first examination that they were subject to.

With compliments

The Coordinator of the Criminal Investigation
Paulo Rebelo


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/PORTUGUESE-FORENSIC.htm


There is only one result that I can find that seems to correspond to the PT test - and which did yield a full DNA profile...


Table 1 - Autosomic STRs of vestigios.
 01-02 -OUTROS APENSOS I - volume II pages 284-299

Only it most definitely isn't Madeleine, as it's from a male. And the male isn't Gerry, as in some of the markers, neither allele corresponds to hers. 

Don't know what happened there. Either the FSS missed it, or the boot piece got contaminated somewhere en route to the INML.

I don’t recall how many contributors of the DNA samples were taken from the car or the floor tiles. Over 3?   If  however, they shared some of Madeleine’s DNA It could make up to a complete DNA match for Madeleine, without her DNA profile ever being involved.
A waste of time to even consider the possibility of it being her DNA, in a mixed or degenerated sample, IMO.

Especially the car which would have many of the same DNA elements matching her profile, due to it being occupied by her parents, siblings and other relatives.
She had  at least 1 gene from each of their parents and would share genes with the twins and relatives


I read about a person being sought in connection with multiple crimes where DNA results were  obtained via mouth  swabs……The DNA turned out to belong to someone who worked in the cotton swab factory.
Just pointing out the power of contamination as well.
« Last Edit: September 20, 2015, 11:29:09 AM by Anna »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6067 on: September 20, 2015, 11:43:26 AM »
I do wonder what would have happened if Amaral had not been ejected from the case...........Scary or what?
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6068 on: September 20, 2015, 11:52:47 AM »
the question you raised is what did they alert to..grime was asked on two occasions in his rogatory interview to confirm the alert to cadaver odour...he dodged the question on both occasions

No I didn't. I was replying to your post below. No mention of what they alerted to, just that they alerted, which is 'an undisputed fact'.

Surely now that the alerts have been proved to be undisputed facts by the Portuguese courts then the Portuguese courts would have to accept them as evidence
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.

Online Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6069 on: September 20, 2015, 12:16:16 PM »
No I didn't. I was replying to your post below. No mention of what they alerted to, just that they alerted, which is 'an undisputed fact'.

No, that is not an undisputed fact.  It is very much disputed.  The only undisputed fact is that it was said.
I simply do not understand why you can't see this.

But probably pointless to try to explain.  It is a Point of Law that escapes most people.

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6070 on: September 20, 2015, 12:17:41 PM »
If he hadn't misinterpreted the dogs findings and the FSS results, it would be finished.....No evidence and no media untruths.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2015, 08:07:00 PM by Admin »
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6071 on: September 20, 2015, 12:32:42 PM »
No, that is not an undisputed fact.  It is very much disputed.  The only undisputed fact is that it was said.
I simply do not understand why you can't see this.

But probably pointless to try to explain.  It is a Point of Law that escapes most people.

Davel said 'now that  the alerts have been proved to be undisputed facts'. I said it was never in dispute that the alerts happened. What davel probably meant was something else. but that's not what he said. I was being precise about what davel said, he missed a bit out.
No-one here believes the parents were directly involved in MM's disappearance because belief without evidence is useless.

Online Eleanor

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6072 on: September 20, 2015, 12:33:18 PM »
If he hadn't misinterpreted the dogs findings and the FSS results, it would be finished.....No evidence and no media untruths.

Tis a bit more complicated than that, Anna.  Things were being leaked by a leading investigator who had his own agenda.  And we will never know whether or not he believed his  own misinterpretations.  Or even what his own agenda was.
Except for his Book, of course.

I blame The Salazar Regime, under which Amaral grew up, poor soul.  The PJ were absolute, and no one ever questioned them, least of all The Portuguese Courts.

It is a very sorry tale of which Amaral is ultimately a victim.

Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6073 on: September 20, 2015, 01:10:05 PM »
If these untruths hadn’t been reported by the investigator who misinterpreted the findings……which proved nothing, I might add. Who else apart from those involved in the case, could be responsible for DNA and dogs, media reports? Judicial secrecy my bum! 
And now the latest investigations are not leaking as much as a drip.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Montclair

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #6074 on: October 16, 2015, 04:35:53 PM »
If these untruths hadn’t been reported by the investigator who misinterpreted the findings……which proved nothing, I might add. Who else apart from those involved in the case, could be responsible for DNA and dogs, media reports? Judicial secrecy my bum! 
And now the latest investigations are not leaking as much as a drip.

Which investigator are you referring to? You seem to forget that this investigation was the work of more than one coordinator. BTW, most people agree that it was the late Guilhermino da Encarnação who was responsible for the leaks.

No matter what, you will never believe that there was evidence against the McCanns.