Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 835455 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #405 on: May 20, 2015, 01:56:38 PM »
There is also this -



A trained human cadaver dog will not signal a living person or an animal (except pigs), but it will signal a recently deceased, putrefying or skeletonised human corpse. That suggests that the "bouquet of death" is discernible, but attempts to identify it have so far failed. Two of the by-products of decomposition, putrescine and cadaverine, have been bottled and are commercially available as dog training aids. But they are also present in all decaying organic material, and in human saliva.


Present in ALL DECAYING ORGANIC MATERIAL AND IN HUMAN SALIVA.    Well,   that really widens what cadaver dogs smell doesn't it.

What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #406 on: May 20, 2015, 01:58:54 PM »
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.
How do you know they don't?  What did Zampo the cadaver dog in Sweden alert to 45 times in places where no human remains had ever been?

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #407 on: May 20, 2015, 02:01:40 PM »
So who's going to be the first one to make a bonfire in their car to see where the smoke comes out?

Ever heard of a smoke machine?


I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #408 on: May 20, 2015, 02:04:11 PM »
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.

What it actually said was putrescine and cadaverine has been bottled as it is useful for training cadaver dogs,  however it is also found in decaying organic material too and human saliva.

The dog is given a sign to search G unit  otherwise they would bark around cemeteries too wouldn't they?

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #409 on: May 20, 2015, 02:08:29 PM »
Actually I can believe that about organic material,   have you ever gone away and forgot to throw flowers in a vase away?    The water smells absolutely disgusting.

The gardener would have used organic material on the garden no doubt,   probably that is why Eddie alerted to the garden.    It could even be what he alerted to inside 5a.  With people back and fro walking in the garden then inside 5a.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #410 on: May 20, 2015, 02:10:42 PM »
What it actually said was putrescine and cadaverine has been bottled as it is useful for training cadaver dogs,  however it is also found in decaying organic material too and human saliva.

The dog is given a sign to search G unit  otherwise they would bark around cemeteries too wouldn't they?

I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.
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Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #411 on: May 20, 2015, 02:17:22 PM »
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

The dogs can only identify the material they have been trained with. In Eddie's case that includes pig, human & human blood. His training with human remains was limited to the later stages in his career.

Offline Lace

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #412 on: May 20, 2015, 02:18:05 PM »
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

You are missing the part where it says that 'it is used to train cadaver dogs'.

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #413 on: May 20, 2015, 02:23:00 PM »
Interesting;

In a study published last year, the forensic pathologist Lars Oesterhelweg, then at the University of Bern in Switzerland, and colleagues tested the ability of three Hamburg State Police cadaver dogs to pick out – of a line-up of six new carpet squares – the one that had been exposed for no more than 10 minutes to a recently deceased person.

Several squares had been placed beneath a clothed corpse within three hours of death, when some organs and many cells of the human body are still functioning. Over the next month, the dogs did hundreds of trials in which they signalled the contaminated square with 98 per cent accuracy, falling to 94 per cent when the square had been in contact with the corpse for only two minutes. The research concluded that cadaver dogs were an "outstanding tool" for crime-scene investigation.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html
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Alfred R Jones

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Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #414 on: May 20, 2015, 02:23:30 PM »
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.
But we also know they will falsely alert, like Zampo the Swedish cadaver dog did, 45 times in a forested area. 

Offline G-Unit

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #415 on: May 20, 2015, 02:25:26 PM »
You are missing the part where it says that 'it is used to train cadaver dogs'.

Not Grimes'dogs though, I think?
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Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #416 on: May 20, 2015, 03:09:32 PM »
What it says is they don't actually know what the dogs smell. They can't reproduce it. They know it includes putrescine and cadaverine, but not what else is there which allows the dog to identify the "bouquet of death". There is obviously something else, or the dogs would be alerting to all decaying organic material and human saliva. The point is that they don't alert to these scents, not that they do.

No dog is ever "off duty" at any time. They spend their lives sniffing every inch of their environment, they mark their territory and they know who has been in their territory, they introduce themselves to other dogs by sniffing and being sniffed, they introduce themselves to humans by sniffing.

They are trained to switch on and to switch off to scents which their handler has trained them to respond to as a game.  They are playing a game and they know when their handler wants them to play and when their handler doesn't want them to play.

They are not calibrated scientific instruments ... which is why their alerts can only be taken as indications ... the clincher has to be corroborating forensic evidence.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #417 on: May 20, 2015, 03:22:44 PM »
Actually I can believe that about organic material,   have you ever gone away and forgot to throw flowers in a vase away?    The water smells absolutely disgusting.

The gardener would have used organic material on the garden no doubt,   probably that is why Eddie alerted to the garden.    It could even be what he alerted to inside 5a.  With people back and fro walking in the garden then inside 5a.

They didn't seem to attach a great deal of significance to wearing protective overshoes or any other kind of protective clothing.  Cross contamination could never have been ruled out.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #418 on: May 20, 2015, 03:26:49 PM »
I know it said that. I thought you were suggesting that the dogs would alert to decaying organic material and or saliva. Obviously they don't because of the 'unknown' properties of the scent of death. They know the 'true' scent, the scientists don't.

I don't think they do know the "true scent" ... I think they will react to any one of the components which make up the "true scent".
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #419 on: May 20, 2015, 03:28:38 PM »
Not Grimes'dogs though, I think?

Why do you think that?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....