Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 835643 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #585 on: May 22, 2015, 05:02:48 PM »

No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Yes the EVRD alerts at where the scent is strongest. A removed source might have been in a different part of a room to where the EVRD alerts. On slopes the alert can be where water flow brings the underground scent out the hillside. On lakes and rivers the EVRD alerts where the scent from a source many metres below emerges at the water surface. The international search professional from NPIA who took Eddie to PDL is an expert on these things.

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #586 on: May 22, 2015, 05:16:05 PM »

No it does not.

The dog can locate the edge of a scent cone.

It is interesting that the Welsh dog teams who came to Praia da Luz were a pair.  It is interesting that Martin Grime and his dogs also worked with another team when in Britain.
Very good point about SY taking not one but two "cŵn chwilio" (they takes commands in welsh BTW). Maybe this is because the mound is big area and it could be done faster by two? Did the pair work side to side, or on different parts of the mound?
« Last Edit: May 22, 2015, 05:18:29 PM by pegasus »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #587 on: May 22, 2015, 05:28:40 PM »
Until it is known what happened you cannot say his conclusions were incorrect.


the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

amaral has claimed the alerts prove his conclusions.....prove is a word he has used...that's where he has misled gullible people

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #588 on: May 22, 2015, 06:14:35 PM »
Very good point about SY taking not one but two "cŵn chwilio" (they takes commands in welsh BTW). Maybe this is because the mound is big area and it could be done faster by two? Did the pair work side to side, or on different parts of the mound?


If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #589 on: May 22, 2015, 06:22:43 PM »

the thread concerns whether amaral was correct to draw the conclusions he did re the dogs...the answer is simple ...he wasn't..... he has misled a lot of poeple

amaral has claimed the alerts prove his conclusions.....prove is a word he has used...that's where he has misled gullible people
The alerts are "intelligence" as MG describes them.

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #590 on: May 22, 2015, 06:37:37 PM »

If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.
So two dogs work on seperate grids to cover twice the area in a day.
But if one dog alerts, the other dog is asked to check the same spot.

BTW why didn't SY have the welsh dogs double check Eddie's alert in the 5A garden?

Offline ShiningInLuz

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #591 on: May 22, 2015, 06:40:59 PM »

If it is practice to use two VRD teams, there must be a reason for that and I think it must be for verification particularly in criminal cases.

Also for justification to initiate an expensive course of action which is not necessarily to uncover criminal activity ...



This Sept. 22, 2014 photo shows an old well building in front of a home in Meadow Valley, Calif. The Plumas County Sheriff's Department said three cadaver dogs have alerted on the well, which is near the former home of Mark Wilson. Wilson was 13 went he disappeared in 1967. The sheriff's staff is trying to find funding sources for the nearly $100,000 it will take to excavate and reinstate the site.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/ap/article-2797589/Cadaver-dog-work-accepted-cops-courts.html#ixzz3at7QUFCC


Back to the Welsh dogs.  I think two dog teams are used to search and for corroboration.

If one VRD alerted and the handler recognised it as a trained response the other VRD and handler would be brought in and the determination made whether it would be necessary to follow up with forensic examination of the area.

I never saw the dogs working in tandem ... which doesn't mean that did not happen ... but surely it would make sense to cover the large area with both dogs working to their own grid with perhaps an overlap to ensure nothing was missed.

There was nothing to indicate, on the ground, that the mound was worked in grid fashion.  It might have been, just nothing to indicate it.

SY said 41 anomalies investigated of which 3 were outside the mound.  So the process APPEARS to have been - identify anomaly - then investigate.

When they went into specific areas they would mark the perimeter, strim the weeds, then conduct a search.

There appeared to be vast tracts that were not searched at all, however, I was not there for vast chunks of time, so I could well be wrong.

I have wondered why they chose to lift some drain covers rather than others.

Whether the dogs in this search alerted or not seems to me to be 100% on-topic.  Would the 2014 dogs have alerted after 7 years?  When Amaral was told the dogs never made a mistake, what was he supposed to believe?

There's black.  There's white.  And there's all the grey in between.
What's up, old man?

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #592 on: May 22, 2015, 07:40:30 PM »
So two dogs work on seperate grids to cover twice the area in a day.
But if one dog alerts, the other dog is asked to check the same spot.

BTW why didn't SY have the welsh dogs double check Eddie's alert in the 5A garden?

Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #593 on: May 22, 2015, 07:59:08 PM »
Summed up succinctly.

Re the Welsh dogs ... I think a seven year gap would have made the exercise futile as far as searching for evidence of human remains is concerned, the 'scent of death' or whatever Eddie alerted to wouldn't have hung around ... the time to have brought the dogs in was after Madeleine's disappearance not months after the event.

That can squarely be put down to a British failure, glad you agree.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #594 on: May 22, 2015, 08:02:54 PM »
Witness JW testifies the chat was completly normal. Theories of some early disaster are made by forums not by VDM. Back to dogs, had the dog ever been tested on scent pads of PMIs of only tens of minutes?
(In experiment with 5 trained dogs, none of them alerted the 1 hr 10 mins sample)
The "chat" being "normal" doesnt prove anything, does it?
Just saying. And your question is redundant as it rests on the assumption of a live child at the time of the "chat"

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #595 on: May 22, 2015, 08:04:13 PM »
There was nothing to indicate, on the ground, that the mound was worked in grid fashion.  It might have been, just nothing to indicate it.

SY said 41 anomalies investigated of which 3 were outside the mound.  So the process APPEARS to have been - identify anomaly - then investigate.

When they went into specific areas they would mark the perimeter, strim the weeds, then conduct a search.

There appeared to be vast tracts that were not searched at all, however, I was not there for vast chunks of time, so I could well be wrong.

I have wondered why they chose to lift some drain covers rather than others.

Whether the dogs in this search alerted or not seems to me to be 100% on-topic.  Would the 2014 dogs have alerted after 7 years?  When Amaral was told the dogs never made a mistake, what was he supposed to believe?

There's black.  There's white.  And there's all the grey in between.

The ground was totally unsuitable for an actual grid to be laid out and worked.  But I am sure they worked to pre planned areas in much the fashion you have described.

I am certain the 2014 dogs would have alerted to human remains whether in whole or in part had there been any to be found ... I think there is a fair chance they would have alerted to contaminated clothing or materials.

I follow exactly what you are saying regarding the way in which the dogs were promoted ... but an unbiased observation might have led a more inquisitive investigator to question the hard sell just as  Inspector Joao Carlos did.

Perhaps (I don't know) the covers lifted were chosen because they allowed camera access to more of the drainage network?
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #596 on: May 22, 2015, 08:10:27 PM »
That can squarely be put down to a British failure, glad you agree.

Do not presume to use the tried and tested tactic of putting words into my mouth particularly as you are not even subtle enough to implement insinuation.

"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #597 on: May 22, 2015, 08:21:43 PM »
Do not presume to use the tried and tested tactic of putting words into my mouth particularly as you are not even subtle enough to implement insinuation.

LOL, whatever Mrs.

OK, whose fault was it that cadaver dogs werent brought in pdq? Seeing as the UK police were on the scene early on....


 &%+((£


Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #598 on: May 22, 2015, 08:46:18 PM »
LOL, whatever Mrs.

OK, whose fault was it that cadaver dogs werent brought in pdq? Seeing as the UK police were on the scene early on....


 &%+((£


The UK police probably felt a bit of paranoia ... almost as if someone was following them and checking on their every move ... oh ... wait a minute ... I've just remembered ... someone was!!

It would probably have been more useful to have deployed the men assigned to following the Brits around to looking for Madeleine ... but Mr Amaral's priority didn't appear to lean in that direction ... nor did the level of his distrust allow for advice on how he might use specialist dogs.
If he was suspicious of the Brits ... and it is a matter of record he was ... the Germans also had dogs which could have been deployed.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #599 on: May 22, 2015, 09:06:36 PM »

The UK police probably felt a bit of paranoia ... almost as if someone was following them and checking on their every move ... oh ... wait a minute ... I've just remembered ... someone was!!

It would probably have been more useful to have deployed the men assigned to following the Brits around to looking for Madeleine ... but Mr Amaral's priority didn't appear to lean in that direction ... nor did the level of his distrust allow for advice on how he might use specialist dogs.
If he was suspicious of the Brits ... and it is a matter of record he was ... the Germans also had dogs which could have been deployed.

Who in the PJ would have contacted the FBI for their specialist Scent Transfer Unit 101 equipment prior to the dogs arriving?