i find it almost incomprehensible that so many people could find the disappearance of a little child and its effects on her parents and wider family a subject for such unfettered hilarity, but then there's no accounting for taste.
Can I assume from that that you won't be taking a little peek now and then ?What, so I can read piss poor attempts at satire aimed at the parents and relatives of a missing child? Nah, If I'm really desperate for a laugh I'll watch that Richard Hall video instead,
Can I assume from that that you won't be taking a little peek now and then ?
The 3 Arguidos site was before my time ... but I recall there was some scandal which resulted in it being closed down.it was the original cess pit on which all others have been modelled!
Anyone know anything about that? Was it something to do with nefarious practices by one or more of the founders?
Anyway, doesn't say much for accuracy when there were not 3 Arguidos ... but 4. Then the 'elephant in the room' was being kept very quiet at the time.
it was the original cess pit on which all others have been modelled!
You mean like s t m ? 8**8:/:Does STM have a sub-forum dedicated to taking the piss out of the parents and family of Madeleine McCann?
Does STM have a sub-forum dedicated to taking the piss out of the parents and family of Madeleine McCann?
No, it worships the mccanns and attacks the 'unbelievers'.LOL at Ask Blacksmith. hasn't he been in a spot of bother recently?
Ask Blacksmith .
As to sub forums, I shudder to think what is hidden from prying eyes on there. %&5%£ %&5%£ £4%4%
LOL at Ask Blacksmith. hasn't he been in a spot of bother recently?
What bother would that be Alfred ?Ask Blacksmith @)(++(*
Ask Blacksmith @)(++(*
it was the original cess pit on which all others have been modelled!
What bother would that be Alfred ?
Do you really think if Blacksmith had been the victim of 'bother' as Alfie put it the steadfast supporters wouldn't be wetting their breeches in their eagerness to tell us all about it ?
Its origins were in the late 18th century / early 19th century then?cesspits go back much further than that, virtual cesspits are a more modern invention. Ask Blacksmith!
Do you really think if Blacksmith had been the victim of 'bother' as Alfie put it the steadfast supporters wouldn't be wetting their breeches in their eagerness to tell us all about it ?I wish I had placed money on you making that comment, any mention of the Stud Muffin usually has you scurrying to his side sharpish. @)(++(*. So there is no bother at all in the Blacksmith camp then?
cesspits go back much further than that, virtual cesspits are a more modern invention. Ask Blacksmith!
You seem a glutton for punishment alfred. Shall I remind you of the names of the cesspit forums supporting the mccanns ?Remember you are responsible for the worst language seen on this forum
You seem a glutton for punishment alfred. Shall I remind you of the names of the cesspit forums supporting the mccanns ?Sure, all publicity is good publicity, perhaps you can provide links to some of the most vile posts too..?
Sure, all publicity is good publicity, perhaps you can provide links to some of the most vile posts too..?
i'm sure you know where they are alfred 8(0(*but you offered to remind me so go on then!
I wasn't around when 3A's was active online.
Must admit, I've just enjoyed reading some of Dooby's Diaries. Someone had a very wicked soh.
The jokes were disgusting, but there was some useful info in there. Just like we have SIL on the spot to go and kindly look at things so they had someone who used to get on her bike and cycle in to look at things.
I heard about a scream coming fromm the Staff Quarters on the 3 A's and I have always wonderd since if Madeleine was taken there. Just think of her fear, poor lass, to wake up in a strange place, with a strange man .... and maybe woman. One of whom she may have struggled with prior to being drugged / injected?
Some very interesting info about the boats moored at Lagos on May 3rd. I think it was there that I learned one of the boats left the harbour before the over-night gate was locked. IIRC the gates were locked at 8pm. The boat went out and then was moored in the long canal type entrance for a quick get=away.
Did it leave early in the morning or did it leave that evening ... in time to pick a little girl up at nearby PdL ?
just wondering, but amongst all the dross, the 3A's certainly got hold of some original information. Pity it was so one sided and foul at times.
but you offered to remind me so go on then!
The 3As was set up after the Mirror forum was closed down and was the only place people of all sorts gathered who were interested in the case and exchanged ideas and some limted info in a still in late 2007? info vaccuum.
It was unmoderated IIRC but it was a forum that was really the only place that you could read and with a large membership...you cant fault it for what it was at the time IMO and when the files were released more "real info" started to come out. Not sure why it closed.
There certainly was some funny creativity...I remember the tapestries and funny dances by a poster called buildafiredontgetburnt? There was some less savoury stuff as well, many trolls, and no shouting of libel, libel.
And alot of conspiracy thrived too. Then again there were posters insisting that we know nothing at all well into late 2007 when quite a bit was known.
@)(++(* i was just reading the pink prince story that was epic
It certainly was Moderated. I was Banned three times. I think that was the record.Iwas banned after trying to reason with the forum owner that using the picture of a McCann supporter's child in one of its threads (a thread in which iirc they were trying to get together a mob to have some woman sacked from her job for the crime of speaking out in defence of the McCanns) was not acceptable, and she told me "it's in the public domain" ie: this child was fair game. I can't remember my username and I never bothered to darken their door again.
It certainly was Moderated. I was Banned three times. I think that was the record.
I wish I had placed money on you making that comment, any mention of the Stud Muffin usually has you scurrying to his side sharpish. @)(++(*. So there is no bother at all in the Blacksmith camp then?
You tell me. You seem to be the one 'in the know' !OK, When I have more info I'll be sure to. 8((()*/
Iwas banned after trying to reason with the forum owner that using the picture of a McCann supporter's child in one of its threads (a thread in which iirc they were trying to get together a mob to have some woman sacked from her job for the crime of speaking out in defence of the McCanns) was not acceptable, and she told me "it's in the public domain" ie: this child was fair game. I can't remember my username and I never bothered to darken their door again.
[/quote
yes there were a lot of sado's on there ....mobs and threatening thug type posters
OK, When I have more info I'll be sure to. 8((()*/
is that your claim to fame ....who was you on there then
i know there was the mirror site ...does anyone remember or took part in S O L
didn't join ..The 3 Arguido site ...but often read it....always seemed a bit rough to me
@)(++(* Another humiliating fail Alfie ! You really must learn not to insinuate if your not willing to back it up. It just leaves you looking rather childish.sorry mummy 8(8-))
sorry mummy 8(8-))
That's okay Alfie. Just didn't want you making yourself look foolish.thank you mummy
thank you mummy
So are you a mummy's boy ? 8)-)))
So are you a mummy's boy ? 8)-)))yes let's talk about me. Am I a mummy's boy? It all started back in the days in the nursery when at 6pm sharp nanny would present me to Mother who would appraise me with a cool, critical eye and then proceed to test me on my times tables. Woe betide if I got one wrong, I'd receive the harshest of tongue lashings and often as not would be sent off to bed without any tea. My whole childhood I spent trying (and failing) to win mother's affection, but I was an unloveable child you see, somewhat knock-knee'ed and with a lazy eye. Mother insisted I grow my fringe to cover up the eye which meant I was always walking into things, such as the sideboard upon which mother kept her prized collection of Wedgwood miniatures. Well you can imagine the rest... shall I go on?
He's certainly an unconscionable gossip Stephen. Not a very 'manly' trait !
He's certainly an unconscionable gossip Stephen. Not a very 'manly' trait !After the upbringing I had to endure is it any wonder? I was forced to wear dresses too, which irked me.
After the upbringing I had to endure is it any wonder? I was forced to wear dresses too, which irked me.
Indeed. I believe Arnie's description was a girly man.And still the chat revolves around me, how wonderful to be such a subject of fascination, but who is this Arnie person and what right has he to pronounce on my sad and pitiful being?
Allegedly, of course. 8)--))
That explains a lot. Thank you for sharing Alfie 8(0(*Any time, glad to get it off my puny little chest.
yes let's talk about me. Am I a mummy's boy? It all started back in the days in the nursery when at 6pm sharp nanny would present me to Mother who would appraise me with a cool, critical eye and then proceed to test me on my times tables. Woe betide if I got one wrong, I'd receive the harshest of tongue lashings and often as not would be sent off to bed without any tea. My whole childhood I spent trying (and failing) to win mother's affection, but I was an unloveable child you see, somewhat knock-knee'ed and with a lazy eye. Mother insisted I grow my fringe to cover up the eye which meant I was always walking into things, such as the sideboard upon which mother kept her prized collection of Wedgwood miniatures. Well you can imagine the rest... shall I go on?
And still the chat revolves around me, how wonderful to be such a subject of fascination, but who is this Arnie person and what right has he to pronounce on my sad and pitiful being?
I have got the distinct impression, you like being the centre of attention.well if you will insist on making these threads all about me, what do you expect? And thanks for the vaguely threatening picture and all, but I'm not quite sure of its relevance to my childhood.
..and you don't know who Arnie is ?
(http://orig09.deviantart.net/327c/f/2011/313/e/7/terminator_smiley_face_by_kwbunyap-d4fmr5s.jpg)
Hasta la vista.......
*&*%£ please do. I want to hear more.I'm actually in the process of writing my childhood memoirs which will go on sale in the Mis Lit section of all good WHSmiths and Tescos. You will also be able to download it to your Kindle, it's working title is "Mummy why were you so mean to me?" but if you can think of a better one I'm open to suggestion.
ETA To keep on topic I would add I was never a member of this particular site, nor read it.
well if you will insist on making these threads all about me, what do you expect? And thanks for the vaguely threatening picture and all, but I'm not quite sure of its relevance to my childhood.
well if you will insist on making these threads all about me, what do you expect? And thanks for the vaguely threatening picture and all, but I'm not quite sure of its relevance to my childhood.
yes it has, thanks for your sympathetic understanding. I don't understand the reason for the Arnie reference or the sinister picture, is Stephen trying to intimidate me? Perhaps you can tell him off like you did me, I'd be ever so grateful.
Vaguely threatening ? My your childhood has left an indelible stain hasn't it Alfie ! 8(0(*
yes it has, thanks for your sympathetic understanding. I don't understand the reason for the Arnie reference or the sinister picture, is Stephen trying to intimidate me? Perhaps you can tell him off like you did me, I'd be ever so grateful.
I'm actually in the process of writing my childhood memoirs which will go on sale in the Mis Lit section of all good WHSmiths and Tescos. You will also be able to download it to your Kindle, it's working title is "Mummy why were you so mean to me?" but if you can think of a better one I'm open to suggestion.
I'm actually in the process of writing my childhood memoirs which will go on sale in the Mis Lit section of all good WHSmiths and Tescos. You will also be able to download it to your Kindle, it's working title is "Mummy why were you so mean to me?" but if you can think of a better one I'm open to suggestion.
Curiouser and curiouser. &%+((£
@Eleanor and @Alf:
All your yesterdays?
I have visions of you sitting in your porch swing with your clay pipes and mason jars full of white lightnin'
dreamin' of them days when you wuz just them thar hillies and billies fightin' an a feudin' again.
How's about, "Me Me Me?" I'm writing one of those. But you can have the title. I'll go for "Me, Myself and I."You should go for "Moi, Moi, Moi", or even "Mwah, Mwah, Mwah" if you were feeling particularly fruity.
You should go for "Moi, Moi, Moi", or even "Mwah, Mwah, Mwah" if you were feeling particularly fruity.
What do you mean, Yesterdays? I can get BroadBand in my garden these days. I just move the gin bottle outside, along with the laptop.
BroadBand? you should be so lucky.
Down here in the boondocks we are still using a length of thin twine and two cut down Red Stripe cans.
BroadBand? you should be so lucky.
Down here in the boondocks we are still using a length of thin twine and two cut down Red Stripe cans.
Methinks those lines sound familiar. *&*%£
When I were a lad....
Move to Rural France. BroadBand has been hot off the griddle for quite some time. Even the tractors and combine harvesters have it.
There are still a few who rely on Jungle Drums, but they are mostly Brits who much prefer to depend on salacious gossip.
PS. I would be more than happy to help you move if that is what you wanted.
Come off it! we have telly in the bars in the boondocks. The French only use les tracteurs for running over courting couples who are laying in the fields and mangeing Du Boursin (quite why they should do so is beyond me but it must be right I saw it on telly.... &%+((£ )
You have Bars in the Boondocks? Goodness me. Most of them have closed around here due to the Smoking Ban. So we all get pissed at home. As if we never did before.
Nothing wrong with Cheese, although I much prefer Cheddar, when I can get it.
PS. Bring Cheddar if you want to move. I would help anyone for that.
Can we get back to talking about me anytime soon?
Have you tried Cantal cheese? A lot like cheddar. t
Xcuse me. I think I've got the upper hand here. Status notwithstanding. Or whatever.OK. Cheese it is then. Which reminds me of the name of one of my favourite little shops in the Holy Land "Cheeses of Nazareth". Genius.
OK. Cheese it is then. Which reminds me of the name of one of my favourite little shops in the Holy Land "Cheeses of Nazareth". Genius.
I'd like to say that that was the best joke on here in ages - but sadly I can't.I'm truly devastated. 8)><(
I'm truly devastated. 8)><(
And so will it always be.
I remember reading the Smoking Gun thread on there... only to discover that there wasn't one.
So you're one of the lads Eleanor &%+((£
I always was, Sweetie. Much as I never really wanted to be. But it was some sort of obscure compliment, bestowed on me by those who saw me coming.
Don't push your luck with her because she will decimate you before you know the time of day.
Fortunately, I am constrained by the good manners that are required of me as a Moderator.
I can help there:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gQEDwjhaDE
Push my luck ?
That sounds like a threat.
In the third person.
and this isn't your forum.
Jesus wept ....It was a JOKE Stephen.
Jesus wept ....It was a JOKE Stephen.
What's all that about a "sheet of cold metal"?
I've read some of Eleanor's other 'jokes' as well.
Chin Chin.
I am sorry Stephen - I had quite forgotten that you are someone who likes to 'dish it out' but when it comes to 'taking it' you get all precious.
I will try to remember in the future. 8(8-))
Precious ain't my forte jp.
However, you show a definite flair for it.
Perhaps you should ask your good friend what she said about the Dewani parents.
That was an eye opener.
Hardly
You will have to provide a link re the dewani issue.
Ask Eleanor.
I'm sure she will fill you in.
You raised the issue, so its up to you to provide the "evidence".
But as usual, you are unable to.
As usual jp ?
Don't think so.
How can I post a post, that has been removed, but I've not seen anbd you know nothing about ? 8**8:/:
By the way, do you enjoy playing childish games which achieve nothing ?
Eleanor posted happily against gerry and kate on the 3 aguidos forum
Coldwater dabbling with his "sources". LOL
There is sometimes a tiny half-truth in some of these myths. The only possibility I can think of is that he'd somehow heard that Amaral was convinced of his fridge theory (cold) and the panel of the car that was sent for analysis ("sheet"). It was plastic, not metal, but near enough.
The case as of Today - according to Coldwater
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12483&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=coldwater
Ah yes. That old fraud. Pretended to be police and have "inside information"
And many of the more gullible swallowed it hook line and sinker, and are still regurgitating it even now.
What is it about this case that (a) attracts the frauds and nutters and (b) why are so many so anxious to believe them.
Coldwater dabbling with his "sources". LOLDidn't Coldwater also claim a bag was taken by car to Burgau?
There is sometimes a tiny half-truth in some of these myths. The only possibility I can think of is that he'd somehow heard that Amaral was convinced of his fridge theory (cold) and the panel of the car that was sent for analysis ("sheet"). It was plastic, not metal, but near enough.
The case as of Today - according to Coldwater
http://3as.madeleinemccann.org/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=12483&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&hilit=coldwater
Didn't Coldwater also claim a bag was taken by car to Burgau?
To be fair, the files hadn't been released at that time, but his dabbles with his "sources" bear little relationship to reality."by Coldwater » Wed May 07, 2008 10:50 am.
"By Coldwater ...Thu Dec 27, 2007 ... the PJ have had the blue bag in their possession for some time."
"by Coldwater » Wed May 07, 2008 10:50 am.
The bag 'came in to questioning' at the time they were made arguidos!!"
Remember, coldwater posted that before the files were released.
So the mystery is, how did coldwater know that?
LOL
According to Coldwater, everyone and their pet hamster were about to be arrested.
I'd challenge anyone to find a single prediction written by a wishful-thinking "sceptic" on the 3As that ever actually came to pass.Here's a prediction by Coldwater on 23 May 2008 (long before the files were released).
Here's a prediction by Coldwater on 23 May 2008 (long before the files were released).is this a trick question?
"As an aside, the Tapas 7 are all ready and willing to go to PDL"
How accurate was that prediction?
is this a trick question?Not a trick question.
"By Coldwater ...Thu Dec 27, 2007 ... the PJ have had the blue bag in their possession for some time."
A PJ bluff that did the rounds.Anyway there's a photo of this large luggage bag/case in early hours of 4th, and another photo of it in morning 5th.
http://www.anorak.co.uk/178705/madeleine-mccann/madeleine-mccann-a-paedo-a-blue-bag-and-the-ophans.html/
http://www.dn.pt/arquivo/2007/interior/saco-desaparecido-do-pai-de-maddie-e-pista-na-investigacao-991838.html
Anyway there's a photo of this large luggage bag/case in early hours of 4th, and another photo of it in morning 5th.
What do you call "large"? There was indeed some kind of bag photographed by the PJ in the early hours of the morning... and some kind of bag / or wheelie thing taken out on 5 May.Large means typical size you would check-in for air travel Carana.
It doesn't appear to be blue, nor does it resemble a tennis bag.
Why would the McCanns have left a bag in a cupboard for forensics to rummage through? Doesn't that seem a bit risky?
The PJ checked on plane luggage, didn't they?
Large means typical size you would check-in for air travel Carana.
IMO it is black (or possibly very dark blue which looks black) and is described well as either a case or a bag.
David Payne got in a bit of a tangle with bags;
"There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
David Payne got in a bit of a tangle with bags;
"There was nothing of that size that you could hide a, a tennis racquet in or anything like that,
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Why should you want to hide a tennis racquet ?
You do wonder what was really going through his mind for that sentence to emerge ?
Erm... perhaps because the "blue tennis bag" had been all over the tabloids prior to these interviews, perhaps?Surely that's the obvious answer? Perhaps the "sceptics" have another, less obvious one...?
Erm... perhaps because the "blue tennis bag" had been all over the tabloids prior to these interviews, perhaps?Thanks Carana yes the responses to questions re tennis kit in that rog interview are a direct result of those press and TV reports which came out in Dec 2007.
When martin brunt, crime correspondent for sky, mentioned it in his documentary, in dec 2007, did coldwater tell him? Or the pj? either way did someone just "make up the existence" of a blue sports bag?
IIRC Pegasus found the first public mention of a blue sports bag in an anonymous comment after an article in the Algarve resident(?) in Sept 2007. It's on this forum somewhere but I don't know where.
I searched pegasus' posts for blue, sports and bag and its not there, never mind, thank you..I guess its one of those "things" in this case that one doesnt worry about too much... No smoke so no fire...plenty of those to read and think about already
IIRC Pegasus found the first public mention of a blue sports bag in an anonymous comment after an article in the Algarve resident(?) in Sept 2007. It's on this forum somewhere but I don't know where.The first mention of a blue bag or case was early August.
The first mention of a blue bag or case was early August.
Pegasus will undoubtedly still have the link to the comment.
It's rather like the anonymous poster who knew exactly what Mrs Fenn was going to tell the police about the crying child a month before she made her statement.
LOL, I knew you'd remember. Do you still have the link - the forum search doesn't bring the right post up - but the comment was in Portuguese or Spanish wasn't it?The early Aug 2007 comment is gone from web now.
The early Aug 2007 comment is gone from web now.
It said something like "a sort of blue suitcase" or "a kind of blue bag"
When martin brunt, crime correspondent for sky, mentioned it in his documentary, in dec 2007, did coldwater tell him? Or the pj? either way did someone just "make up the existence" of a blue sports bag?
The first mention of a blue bag or case was early August.
This is hilarious. The McCanns get made arguidos in early Sep 2007. Then an anonymous seer says that there is a heavy blue suitcase in Burgau or Burgau beach, near to the edge of the beach. And that they (presumably the Portuguese police) lose nothing by searching for it.
I'd copied this for some reason.
Link no longer works.
It's in Spanish, but was posted on the PT Expresso site.
"Vidente" means clairvoyant / seer.
vidente
Anónimo (seguir utilizador), 0 pontos , 3:05 | Segunda feira, 17 de setembro de 2007
Busquen a Madeleine en la zona de playa de Burgao u Burgau, a pocos km de Praia da luz , esta dentro de una especie de maleta azul con peso, esta cerca de la orilla de la playa, con buscar no pierden nada. Gracias.
Ler mais: http://expresso.sapo.pt/buscas-ainda-nao-recomecaram=f114931#ixzz3KvIh1SNv
Googlish:
Look for Madeleine area or Burgau Burgau beach, a few km from Praia da Luz is within a kind of blue suitcase weight is close to the edge of the beach, looking lose nothing. Thank you.
In December, there were contradictory reports in PT media: one was that the PJ were looking for a bag, the other was that they'd had it in their possession for ages.
This is hilarious. The McCanns get made arguidos in early Sep 2007. Then an anonymous seer says that there is a heavy blue suitcase in Burgau or Burgau beach, near to the edge of the beach. And that they (presumably the Portuguese police) lose nothing by searching for it.
At least I know the provenance of the blue bag theory.
8((()*/
This is hilarious. The McCanns get made arguidos in early Sep 2007. Then an anonymous seer says that there is a heavy blue suitcase in Burgau or Burgau beach, near to the edge of the beach. And that they (presumably the Portuguese police) lose nothing by searching for it.
At least I know the provenance of the blue bag theory.
8((()*/
If you're thinking of a certain detective agency... I wouldn't take that as a given as every "clairvoyant" and their dog was posting on social media at the time, and the agency in question was confident that they'd find her alive, so that doesn't make sense to me.I wasn't thinking PIs.
There was a clairvoyant from South America (Chile?) who got press coverage at some point (as did numerous US ones via social media. Can't remember the name of the American guy who had numerous "dreams" and scribbled drawings on scraps of paper to illustrate them). *sigh*
I searched pegasus' posts for blue, sports and bag and its not there, never mind, thank you..I guess its one of those "things" in this case that one doesnt worry about too much... No smoke so no fire...plenty of those to read and think about alreadyGuaranteed, no smoke, no fire, and no pesky spaniel, in this particular location Merc!
This is hilarious. The McCanns get made arguidos in early Sep 2007. Then an anonymous seer says that there is a heavy blue suitcase in Burgau or Burgau beach, near to the edge of the beach. And that they (presumably the Portuguese police) lose nothing by searching for it.What if the perp was very intelligent and super determined? Imagine a stranger perp sees the EVRD searching on 31 Jul 2007 and decides that a relocation is required to somewhere completely safe from EVRD? That rules out concealing in ground, buildings, lakes, tunnels, so that leaves only one place ...
At least I know the provenance of the blue bag theory.
8((()*/
Snip) 17 de setembro de 2007 (snip)That person originally posted 40 days before 17 Sept Carana.
What if the perp was very intelligent and super determined? Imagine a stranger perp sees the EVRD searching on 31 Jul 2007 and decides that a relocation is required to somewhere completely safe from EVRD? That rules out concealing in ground, buildings, lakes, tunnels, so that leaves only one place ...
That person originally posted 40 days before 17 Sept Carana.
Don't you think that may have involved having access to and using a boat?No because with a boat someone would go further offshore Brietta
Brian ladd, ask sadie, she subscribes to his "dreams"No I do not subscribe to brian ladds dreams, but I have read them as I tried to read everything to get a balanced perspective.
Regarding the story of a medium talking aBout a blue bag and the PJ using their vision as a lead/hypothesis...poppycock...I am sure PJ officers (who are btw needed to be educated to degree standard) working like this is nonsense...the PJ had dozens of psychics with visions including a relative of the mccanns irrc with regard to some boat, they put them in the trash bin....now marcos of metodo 3 fame had a vision about madeleine being raped and killed and thrown into a river and went in there looking for her, whence clarence mitchell labelled him a self seeking opportunist, on his secind search clarence said any info is great, then the mccanns hired him...! Oh hang on...my bad...they had already hired him...what a mess hey?
Oh
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1200.0;nowap
No I do not subscribe to brian ladds dreams, but I have read them as I tried to read everything to get a balanced perspective.
You should try it Mercury 8(0(*
What was truly fascinating apart from the drawings (some of which incidentally I now realise echo my findings) was some of the comments from people that wrote in. Some really substantial facts emerged from several people. Worthwhile stuff amongst the dross.