What evidence would confirm a cadaver dog alert?

[Brietta]

I think you are wrong, otherwise cadaver dogs would always alert to blood.

I think cadaver dogs always alert to blood.  Two verified alerts made in Luz were to blood ... neither of which tested as Madeleine's.

[Robittybob1]

And you do not know. cite please unless you do and can evidence this.

I won't be taking action on this cite as it is very unclear as to what you want Davel to produce a cite for.

[Mr Gray]

And you do not know. cite please unless you do and can evidence this.

I looked at some years ago and found that dried blood does not produce cadaverine......why not, ask slarti for a cite as he made the initial claim

[Robittybob1]

I looked at some years ago and found that dried blood does not produce cadaverine......why not, ask slarti for a cite as he made the initial claim

The purpose of drying it is to stop it decomposing.  (Same process is used to preserve food) dehydration.  It stops food from going rotten.

[slartibartfast]

I looked at some years ago and found that dried blood does not produce cadaverine......why not, ask slarti for a cite as he made the initial claim

Mine was an opinion based on it drying quickly. IMO cadaverine is produced in significant quantities in larger body parts that retain/contain or become liquid upon death.

[Robittybob1]

Mine was an opinion based on it drying quickly. IMO cadaverine is produced in significant quantities in larger body parts that retain/contain or become liquid upon death.

Did we all misunderstand your post then?  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9966.msg479465#msg479465

Rob "But decomposed blood has the same smell as cadaver IMO.

Slartibartfast: "I think you are wrong, otherwise cadaver dogs would always alert to blood."

IMO Cadaver dogs would always alert to decomposed blood. not rapid fresh dried blood.  You could always get dried decomposed blood but that isn't like fresh dried blood (blood spot).

[slartibartfast]

Did we all misunderstand your post then?  http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9966.msg479465#msg479465

Rob "But decomposed blood has the same smell as cadaver IMO.

Slartibartfast: "I think you are wrong, otherwise cadaver dogs would always alert to blood."

IMO Cadaver dogs would always alert to decomposed blood. not rapid fresh dried blood.  You could always get dried decomposed blood but that isn't like fresh dried blood (blood spot).

So you envisage pools of blood that stay liquid long enough to decompose?

[Miss Taken Identity]

I looked at some years ago and found that dried blood does not produce cadaverine......why not, ask slarti for a cite as he made the initial claim

I asked you because you made a claim that 'logic dictates'  who's logic- what logic?  scientific evidence is what I was looking for.  But your claim just needed an IMO. rather than a claim about logic.

Cheers.

[Robittybob1]

So you envisage pools of blood that stay liquid long enough to decompose?

Yes where the blood seeps between the tiles.  In the gaps there will be slow drying and hence decomposition.  I thought I'd read about that but certainly that is physically true.  You won't get rapid drying where there is a gap in the tiles.  They removed the tiles to get to the blood didn't they?

"They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room ... "
"In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood"

"Subsequently it was asked of the undersigned that they watched the films of the searches performed by the dog specialised in detection of human blood so that they obtained an understanding of the area from where the tiles should be collected and how many tiles they should collect.

After seeing the images and in agreement with the officers of DIC of Portimao it was defined that the undersigned should proceed with the recovery of four tiles. It was also defined that this operation of recovery of the tiles would also be filmed.

When looking at the images referred to above it was observed that the floor tiles to be recovered were situated in an area of the living room next to a window where there was a sofa and that the tiles referred to were underneath that sofa."

"Items 16 to 19: Grouting/mortar from between tiles, and between tiles and wall"

"286/2007-CRL (20) Fragments of floor tile and grouting
The attempt to obtain a result through LCN from any cellular material that may have been in these fragments was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA."

That suggests what I'm saying fairly well.  There are the cells on the surface of the tiles with DNA present but between the tiles the DNA is decomposed.

[Mr Gray]

I asked you because you made a claim that 'logic dictates'  who's logic- what logic?  scientific evidence is what I was looking for.  But your claim just needed an IMO. rather than a claim about logic.

Cheers.

You need to cite the post

[Miss Taken Identity]

« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2018, 08:10:19 PM »        [ reply from Davel.]
Quote
Quote from: Robittybob1 on August 12, 2018, 08:04:01 PM
I know that is what Grime is reported to have said, but he wasn't questioned on that point, so it remains unconfirmed IMO.



"I dont agree...logic dictates if both dogs alert at the same spot it could just be blood and no cadaver odour"

[slartibartfast]

Yes where the blood seeps between the tiles.  In the gaps there will be slow drying and hence decomposition.  I thought I'd read about that but certainly that is physically true.  You won't get rapid drying where there is a gap in the tiles.  They removed the tiles to get to the blood didn't they?

"They informed further that in that search the animal specialised in detection of human blood indicated the possible presence thereof on one of the floor tiles in the living room ... "
"In that contact the undersigned were told that they should [OCR error: missing word taken to be "proceder": to proceed] proceed with the recovery of the floor tiles indicated by the dog specialised in the detection of human blood"

"Subsequently it was asked of the undersigned that they watched the films of the searches performed by the dog specialised in detection of human blood so that they obtained an understanding of the area from where the tiles should be collected and how many tiles they should collect.

After seeing the images and in agreement with the officers of DIC of Portimao it was defined that the undersigned should proceed with the recovery of four tiles. It was also defined that this operation of recovery of the tiles would also be filmed.

When looking at the images referred to above it was observed that the floor tiles to be recovered were situated in an area of the living room next to a window where there was a sofa and that the tiles referred to were underneath that sofa."

"Items 16 to 19: Grouting/mortar from between tiles, and between tiles and wall"

"286/2007-CRL (20) Fragments of floor tile and grouting
The attempt to obtain a result through LCN from any cellular material that may have been in these fragments was unfruitful, given that no profile was obtained, possibly due to the absence of sufficient good quality DNA."

That suggests what I'm saying fairly well.  There are the cells on the surface of the tiles with DNA present but between the tiles the DNA is decomposed.

Pools of blood are fairly memorable and I would expect them to have been identified if accidental or done previously.

[Robittybob1]

Pools of blood are fairly memorable and I would expect them to have been identified if accidental or done previously.

In whose memory would they be in?  If they had been wiped up maybe someone saw that blood but it wasn't there to be seen by anyone else.  We can't tell who possibly wiped up the blood under the sofa.  Was that area even checked on the 4th?

[Brietta]

In whose memory would they be in?  If they had been wiped up maybe someone saw that blood but it wasn't there to be seen by anyone else.  We can't tell who possibly wiped up the blood under the sofa.  Was that area even checked on the 4th?

The Portuguese forensics team certainly did use methods to identify blood.

[Robittybob1]

The Portuguese forensics team certainly did use methods to identify blood.

I have read that, something like luminol.
But did they look under the sofa?  Did they look under the beds?  Unless there were photos of the areas covered we don't know for sure.