The Smithman e-fits

[barrier]

So that allows for at least two parties being able to supply OG with the e-fits:
1.  LP
2. the PIs

The MET in its reply to T Bennett say it was the PI's.

[G-Unit]

The MET in its reply to T Bennett say it was the PI's.

Which confirms what Exton said in 2013.

[Robittybob1]

Which confirms what Exton said in 2013.

Still doesn't explain why the LP didn't pass on the e-fit in May 2011.  IMO this information should have been handed over immediately.

[G-Unit]

Still doesn't explain why the LP didn't pass on the e-fit in May 2011.  IMO this information should have been handed over immediately.

Perhaps LP put them into HOLMES. I expect OG were given access to that information when they took over. I can't see why LP would flag the e-fits up as a matter of urgency though.

[Lace]

Perhaps LP put them into HOLMES. I expect OG were given access to that information when they took over. I can't see why LP would flag the e-fits up as a matter of urgency though.

snipped -    "We are drawing together information from three separate sources. The legal enforcement bodies within Portugal, the UK enforcement agencies of which the police are the main part, and also and unusually the private investigation world which as we know is an element that was used by Mr and Mrs McCann in the search for their daughter."

[jassi]

snipped from where please?

[Lace]

snipped from where please?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2012/panorama-maddie.html

[jassi]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2012/panorama-maddie.html

 

[pathfinder73]

Bennett failing in getting any real answers from SY about Smithman except the date efits were produced 4 SEP 2008 and Operation Grange received on 24 OCT 2011.

MET POLICE ANSWERS

For convenience I set out below each of the questions I asked - and a summary of each of the Met Police responses:

1          Has the man in the efits been identified? REPLY:  No comment, this is a live investigation.

2.         If Yes, has he been positively ruled out as Madeleine's abductor?  REPLY: No comment, this is a live investigation.

3.         If No, is the Met Police still searching for him? REPLY: No comment, this is a live investigation.

4.        If No, is the Met Police still searching for someone else as the likely abductor? REPLY: No comment, this is a live investigation

5.        The efits still appear on the McCanns' 'Find Madeleine' website despite the MPS 'no longer using them as part of its appeal'. Has the MPS advised the McCanns to remove these efits from their website? - REPLY: Information that relates to living individuals is exempt from disclosure. The MPS will not disclose what has or has not been discussed with the McCann family.

6.        If Yes, on what date please. - REPLY: Information that relates to living individuals is exempt from disclosure. The MPS will not disclose what has or has not been discussed with the McCann family.

7. . On what date, and by whom, were these two efits first drawn up?  REPLY: The efits were drawn up on 04/09/08.  The request "by whom" seeks access to personal data – Refused.

8. On what date or dates did the private investigators release these two efits released and to whom? REPLY: The MPS do not hold and information in respect of these matters.

9. On what date (if any) were these efits handed to Leicestershire Police? REPLY: The MPS do not hold and information in respect of these matters.

10.  On what date (if any) were these efits handed to the Portuguese Police? REPLY: The MPS do not hold and information in respect of these matters.

11. On what date were these efits first supplied to Operation Grange, and by whom? REPLY: The efits were supplied to Operation Grange on 24th October 2011.  The request "by whom" seeks access to personal data - Refused.

12. If the Metropolitan Police first received these efits before Operation Grange was set up, on what date were they received and by which department of the MPS were they received?   REPLY: The fits were not received by the MPS before Operation Grange was set up.

13. The recent MPS Freedom of Information Act reply refers specifically to the 'final' version of the private investigators' report. Therefore, in the interests of clarity, and having regard (a) to the public interest and (b) assurances by both the McCanns and the Met Police that the investigations into Madeleine's disappearance would be conducted with maximum openness and transparency, please state: (i) On what date was the 'final' private investigators' report compiled.  (ii) How many interim reports were there before the 'final report' and (iii) when was each of them compiled?   REPLY: The recent MPS Freedom of Information Act reply does not refer to the 'final' version of the private investigators' report.  As such we cannot answer these questions.

14. Does Operation Grange now agree that Dr Julian Totman was the man seen by Jane Tanner?  REPLY: No comment – live investigation.

https://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t15233-a-bit-more-information-on-those-controversial-smithman-efits-from-met-police-answers-to-some-more-freedom-of-information-act-questions-11-jun-2018

[Robittybob1]

4 SEP 2008   is the firm date for the production of the e-fits.  I.e close to a year after the McCanns were declared arguidos.

[ShiningInLuz]

4 SEP 2008   is the firm date for the production of the e-fits.  I.e close to a year after the McCanns were declared arguidos.

16 months after the sighting.

[blonk]

From the Met Police reply to some FOIAct questions re OPERATION GRANGE:

QUOTE

7. On what date, and by whom, were these two efits first drawn up? 
REPLY: The efits were drawn up on 04/09/08.  The request "by whom" seeks access to personal data – Refused.

11. On what date were these efits first supplied to Operation Grange, and by whom?
REPLY: The efits were supplied to Operation Grange on 24th October 2011.  The request "by whom" seeks access to personal data - Refused.

UNQUOTE

COMMENT:  The question asks when the efitswere 'drawn up'.  The answer is that they were 'drawn up' ON (and not 'by') 4 September 2008. As has been pointed out, that was 16 months after the alleged 'sighting'.

In view of the highly controversial nature of these sightings, we might want to ask:

- Who contributed to the efits? Mainly Martin Smith? Mainly Aoife Smith? Mainly Peter Smith? All three of them equally? Were the other six Smiths who allegedly also his man also consulted wen the efits were 'drws up'?
- Were sketches drawn?
- Were alternative sketches done?
- Why on earth were two very DIFFERENT efits produced - with several noticeable differences between the two efits? 
- Were they drawn up by Henri Exton - or not?

Then there are some other questions:
- If they were drawn up on 4 September 2008, when were they given to the McCanns?
- Why did the McCanns not give these efits to the police straightaway? [NOTE: In their statement to the Sunday Times, they would only state on the record that they had given them to Leicestershire Police and the Portuguese Police 'by' October 2009 - over a year later]
- Why the vague 'by' October 2009. Why not give the actual dates? - there will surely be a record of when they did so   
- What did Leicestershire Police do with the efits?
- What did the Portuguese Police do with the efits?
- Why were the efits not handed to Operation Grange until 24 October 2011, by which time they had been up and running for 5 months?
- Why did it take until 14 October 2013 - two years later - for the efits to be shown to the public?
- And why is Operation Grange no longer looking for the 'man of the Smithman efits'? Has he been traced? Has he been eliminated?
- If so, who is the 'man of the Smithman efits'?

When you consider these and many other questions about the Smithman efits, it becomes very clear that we still know remarkably little about them.

[jassi]

From the Met Police reply to some FOIAct questions re OPERATION GRANGE:

QUOTE

7. On what date, and by whom, were these two efits first drawn up? 
REPLY: The efits were drawn up on 04/09/08.  The request "by whom" seeks access to personal data – Refused.

11. On what date were these efits first supplied to Operation Grange, and by whom?
REPLY: The efits were supplied to Operation Grange on 24th October 2011.  The request "by whom" seeks access to personal data - Refused.

UNQUOTE

COMMENT:  The question asks when the efitswere 'drawn up'.  The answer is that they were 'drawn up' ON (and not 'by') 4 September 2008. As has been pointed out, that was 16 months after the alleged 'sighting'.

In view of the highly controversial nature of these sightings, we might want to ask:

- Who contributed to the efits? Mainly Martin Smith? Mainly Aoife Smith? Mainly Peter Smith? All three of them equally? Were the other six Smiths who allegedly also his man also consulted wen the efits were 'drws up'?
- Were sketches drawn?
- Were alternative sketches done?
- Why on earth were two very DIFFERENT efits produced - with several noticeable differences between the two efits? 
- Were they drawn up by Henri Exton - or not?

Then there are some other questions:
- If they were drawn up on 4 September 2008, when were they given to the McCanns?
- Why did the McCanns not give these efits to the police straightaway? [NOTE: In their statement to the Sunday Times, they would only state on the record that they had given them to Leicestershire Police and the Portuguese Police 'by' October 2009 - over a year later]
- Why the vague 'by' October 2009. Why not give the actual dates? - there will surely be a record of when they did so   
- What did Leicestershire Police do with the efits?
- What did the Portuguese Police do with the efits?
- Why were the efits not handed to Operation Grange until 24 October 2011, by which time they had been up and running for 5 months?
- Why did it take until 14 October 2013 - two years later - for the efits to be shown to the public?
- And why is Operation Grange no longer looking for the 'man of the Smithman efits'? Has he been traced? Has he been eliminated?
- If so, who is the 'man of the Smithman efits'?

When you consider these and many other questions about the Smithman efits, it becomes very clear that we still know remarkably little about them.

2 different efits might have been the work of two different witnesses, rather than composite images.

The vague date of 'by October' might be due to the 2 forces receiving them on different dates.
Did LC hand them onto PJ, or vice versa ?

[Brietta]

2 different efits might have been the work of two different witnesses, rather than composite images.

The vague date of 'by October' might be due to the 2 forces receiving them on different dates.
Did LC hand them onto PJ, or vice versa ?

I believe that opinion is that the closer in time to an incident that the eye witness is asked to work on an efit, the more accurate his/her memory of features is likely to be.

By the time the Smiths reported their sighting I think the optimum time may have been lost ... particularly as the three statements we have seen confirm the inability of the Smiths to impart even a guess as to the man's features.