The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!

[Mr Gray]

Is there an actual signed statement by Leandros sister?  Cos if it is a third party report I have no faith in it.  To many discrepancies and untruths in this case.

 having just translated the start it looks like a third party report

[Carana]

I find it too contrived that Leandros sister would be interested in what shoes Joanna was wearing and would search the house to confirm this...its all manufactured evidence

I find it a bit odd as well. It doesn't seem to be mentioned in Leandro's statement, so there doesn't seem to be any corroboration. The sister's statement doesn't say what colour these shoes were, so I'm not sure where that detail is supposed to have come from.

Several statements say that Joana had been to stay at Leandro's mother's house for a few days (and there was a birthday party on the Sunday). Joana and Leonor got home at around 18:00. Joana might well have been wearing shoes for the party and changed later.

From Leandro's statement: A CC estava desde 5ª feira anterior na casa da mãe da testemunha. A arguida BB no domingo foi também à casa da mãe da testemunha, a uma festa de anos, tendo regressado com a CC à Figueira por volta das 18h.

ETA: Correction - she had stayed at Leandro's mother's house, it didn't say "parents'".

[Carana]

having just translated the start it looks like a third party report

None of the witness statements are verbatim. I find it hard to work out if some were statements made to the PJ which were simply read out in court. Was there time for forty-five or so witnesses to actually take the stand in a trial that only lasted three days?

[Anna]

I find it a bit odd as well. It doesn't seem to be mentioned in Leandro's statement, so there doesn't seem to be any corroboration. The sister's statement doesn't say what colour these shoes were, so I'm not sure where that detail is supposed to have come from.

Several statements say that Joana had been to stay at Leandro's parents' house for a few days (and there was a birthday party on the Sunday). Joana and Leonor got home at around 18:00. Joana might well have been wearing shoes for the party and changed later.

From Leandro's statement: A CC estava desde 5ª feira anterior na casa da mãe da testemunha. A arguida BB no domingo foi também à casa da mãe da testemunha, a uma festa de anos, tendo regressado com a CC à Figueira por volta das 18h.

Or... more threats of violence. If it happened to 3 who had a lot to lose , It could happen to anyone

[Mr Gray]

just ask yourself what are the chances of Leonor being convicted in the uk on the available evidence

[John]

Could you help me to find those points in Leandro's court testimony?


A testemunha II, companheiro da arguida BB, afirmou que à data dos factos vivia com a arguida BB e com a CC. Declarou que o arguido AA tinha chegado a casa deles na madrugada do dia 12 de Setembro (domingo). A CC estava desde 5ª feira anterior na casa da mãe da testemunha. A arguida BB no domingo foi também à casa da mãe da testemunha, a uma festa de anos, tendo regressado com a CC à Figueira por volta das 18h. Disse também a testemunha que foi à "Pastelaria Célia" com o MM por volta das 21h e que a dada altura apareceu ali o arguido AA a dizer que a CC tinha ido à pastelaria às 8h e ainda não tinha aparecido. Eles foram para casa (não achou nada de estranho na casa) e a testemunha pediu à BB para ir procurar a CC nos vizinhos (mas não sabe se ela foi efectivamente) enquanto ele foi à festa do berbigão ver se a CC por lá estaria e o MM foi dar uma volta por ali a ver se via a menor. O arguido AA ficou em casa a tomar conta dos filhos da testemunha. A testemunha ficou algum tempo na festa do berbigão mas havia muita confusão e veio embora; voltou depois à festa com a BB e o MM à procura da CC e quando estavam a regressar a casa apareceu a D. Ofélia, a saber da CC e a perguntar se já tinham chamado a GNR. Disseram-lhe que não e ela telefonou. No dia seguinte a testemunha disse à BB para ir à GNR. Declarou ainda a testemunha que numa altura em que se encontrou com a arguida BB nas instalações da Polícia Judiciária, a pedido daquela Polícia, mas numa altura em que se encontravam só os dois, a testemunha perguntou à BB o que tinha acontecido e ela então contou-lhe que "tinha dado uma chapada na CC e que o irmão acabou de a matar", tudo "porque ela os tinha visto a ter relações" e também contou que "tinham posto o corpo numa casa velha e que tinha sido o AA a levá-la às costas". Posteriormente, quando a testemunha foi visitar a arguida BB à cadeia de Odemira, ela negou o que tinha dito e referiu-lhe que só tinha afirmado aquelas coisas porque a Polícia Judiciária lhe tinha batido. Questionado sobre se no dia em que a BB lhe tinha confessado ter agredido CC, a mesma apresentava marcas de ter sido batida, nomeadamente se tinha a cara ou os olhos inchados ou vermelhos, a testemunha disse que não. À testemunha foi também perguntado se tinha na sua casa algum serrote, ao que respondeu que sim, que tinha um serrote pequeno de dentes finos, e que quando a Polícia Judiciária lhe perguntou pelo serrote foi procurá-lo e verificou que tinha desaparecido.


The only point that I can find is that when the PJ asked him if he had a saw at home, he'd said that he did but that it had disappeared. There's no indication of when he noticed that it had gone prior to being asked to find it.

Nothing about shoes or shopping being found at home as far as I can see.

Why are you referring to appeal court documents Carana when you should be referring to the daily reports from the actual trial?

You have to go back to the trial as I have done if you ever going to understand this case.  Being able to translate Portuguese is a prerequisite of course.

[Anna]

I've just found a reference to the shoes issue.

BB1 (one of Leadro's sisters).
Na 2ª feira de manhã (dia 13), por volta das 14h, a testemunha foi ver a BB. Em casa estavam também o AA e o II. Nessa altura a BB referiu-lhe como é que a CC estava vestida e calçada quando desapareceu. Mais tarde, a testemunha deparou com os sapatos que a BB tinha dito que a CC tinha calçados e confrontou a BB com isso, tendo ela respondido que então a CC devia ter trocado de sapatos e que tinha levado as chinelas. Porém, posteriormente, a testemunha encontrou uma das chinelas debaixo do sofá da sala e a outra chinela no quarto. Procurou o calçado da CC e encontrou em casa todos os sapatos, sandálias e chinelas que ela usava nesse Verão.

This is what I think it says (paraphrasing). Leandro's sister went to see Leonor at the house at around 2pm. Leandro and João were also there. Leonor said what clothes and shoes Joana had been wearing. Later, the sister found the shoes in the house and asked Leonor about it, who said she must have changed shoes and gone out in "chinelas" (slippers/flipflops?). Later, the sister found one of the flipflops under the sofa and the other in the room (not sure which room). She searched for all her footwear and found all the shoes, sandals and slipper/flipflops that she had worn that summer in the house.

Right and did not Leona scrub the floor and walls? and of course she would miss the shoes or fipflops she was wearing when they allegedly killed her- Rubbish!.

[Anna]

Why are you referring to appeal court documents Carana when you should be referring to the daily reports from the actual trial?

You have to go back to the trial as I have done if you ever going to understand this case.  Being able to translate Portuguese is a prerequisite of course.

20 apr 2006 was the last day of the trial was it not ?

[Carana]

Why are you referring to appeal court documents Carana when you should be referring to the daily reports from the actual trial?

You have to go back to the trial as I have done if you ever going to understand this case.  Being able to translate Portuguese is a prerequisite of course.

Do you mean press reports? I'm happy to look at reliable and balanced reports from the actual trial as well.

[John]

20 apr 2006 was the last day of the trial was it not ?

Certainly not, the trial ran from 12th - 14 Oct 2005.  For heavens sake...if you can't even get this right!!!

Do you mean press reports? I'm happy to look at reliable and balanced reports from the actual trial as well.

Well there aren't any other reports are there. These reports are invaluable and give an insight into what really went on each and every day from the moment of the disappearance to the final appeal.

How do you think I know about the three lawyers fighting over Leonor on the first day of the trial or how I know that it was the lawyers who told them both not to testify? 

[Anna]

Certainly not, the trial ran from 12th - 14 Oct 2005.  For heavens sake...if you can't even get this right!!!

I asked you a question which didn't deserve your rude remark

[John]

This is the problem with this case, from the perspective of the English speaker there appears to be little evidence but this is false.  There is an abundance of material and when I get an opportunity I tend to compile it in all.

[Carana]

20 apr 2006 was the last day of the trial was it not ?

Not the actual murder trial. The Supreme Court ruling was 20/04/2006.

[Angelo222]

Not the actual murder trial. The Supreme Court ruling was 20/04/2006.

I really got to laugh when new posters come on here spouting pish when they don't even know the basics.  dum dee dum   

Suggest you do some homework Anna.

[Carana]

Why are some of you being so rude to Anna? The date she'd asked about wasn't the initial murder trial, but it was the date of the end of the appeals process.