UK Justice Forum 🇬🇧
Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => The Disappearance of Portuguese youngster Joana Cipriano (8) from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, Algarve, on 12 September 2004. => Topic started by: John on November 30, 2013, 02:32:58 PM
-
25 sept 2004 - THIS MOTHER SHOULD BE DEAD
The alleged murderers (mother and uncle) Joan were conducted yesterday afternoon at the Court of Portimão to be present at court for criminal prosecution, and was greeted by hundreds of angry people who had gathered at the site. "Assassins" was the word shouted in unison by the popular indignation while the two suspects went through the doors of the building under heavy police escort.
The interrogation of the child's uncle , John Cipriano , has ended after 20.00 and will result in the confession of crime by this , according to a source close to the process. The individual had spent the night at the Prison of Faro.
The judge then heard the child's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who spent the night in the dungeons of the Judicial Police of Faro. The process leading to the implementation of coercive measures dragged into the night .
The two detainees were subject to major security measures by the PSP , which highlighted about 30 officers to the scene, including two dozen members of the Body of Intervention . The arrival of detainees , which was scheduled for 10:00 am, just came to check up around 15:00 , when they were still engaged in many popular place to see up close the two alleged perpetrators of the murder that shocked the country
The authorities were able , however , to fool most people concentrated at the Court . While a mobile car entered the garage at high speed , attracting general attention , the mother and uncle of Joana were sent to the front door , surrounded by members of the Body of Intervention PSP . Thus , individuals were able to escape the popular anger .
During this time , the road around the Court has truly become chaotic , with tailbacks to accumulate in the adjacent streets . Nevertheless , many people insisted on passing car at the site to see the awesome police apparatus placed there .
Many motorists even ended up parking the car nearby, joining the cluster of people waiting for the arrival of suspected death of Joan .
MORE THAN A DEATH
For Maria Amelia , one of the people who was at the Court of Portimão , " that mother deserves more than death " , stressing that "it is the fault of the rulers , since there must be popular justice " . And he confesses : "I always suspected the fault of this woman , because no one can be so cold before the disappearance of a child ."
Beside her , a lady gave an draws near : " They did what they did and are still protected by the authorities , something that they do not deserve ."
John Pacheco was the other popular that showed " shocked and disgusted " with the crime , because the girl knew by sight , by the time she attended the School of Sales in Portimão.
" She was and uncle were to be hanged , if indeed done what it says " , defended in turn Anthony Hunter . Despite his already advanced age , this popular collateral " have never in my life seen such a shocking case like this ."
In the crowd there were also those who still refuse to believe that any mother would be committing an act of that gravity. It was the case of Joseph Francis , who claimed still expect " everything was confirmed ."
Everywhere , the voices that were heard could not be more critical of the alleged perpetrators of the crime , insisting the majority of the popular need for stiffer penalties for such cases and even popular justice .
The many hundreds of people who were at the Court began to demobilize the evening , when the doors of the court were closed and police contingent was raised .
STEPFATHER WAS HEARD BY THE JUDICIAL
" Nobody knows what I 'm going through . Still do not believe this is happening to me , "he said yesterday, the CM , the stepfather of Joan Little , the ex- Faro Directorate of the Judicial Police ( PJ ) which was heard by inspectors SRCB all morning . António Leandro , who abandoned the premises of the PJ moments after his partner , Leonor Cipriano be taken in a civilian car to the Court of Portimão , refused to provide more statements about the case , though he admits not believe that the woman is implicated in the murder. For the stepfather of the murdered girl , the two detained only uncle of the child would be able to practice the act , as it possessed criminal records , including attempted murder of a family . According to PJ , the possible involvement of Leandro in girl's death is so far away .
LEONOR exonerate BROTHER TRIED
ww MAGDALENE BENTES
During the first interrogation in the Directorate of Faro PJ , Leonor Cipriano have tried to exonerate her brother , responsible for the effect her own husband . The CM was found that the woman will initially said the stepfather to carry out the body of Joan outside the housing version that will easily have been cleared by the PJ as António Leandro was in a cafe in the village during the period in which it was committed the crime . Leonor and her brother are, moreover , the only two occupants of the home when Joan arrived on the night of the 12th, coming from shopping. In possession of the girl would not have more than ten euros , an amount required by his uncle , who fall on suspicion of having been the main author of the aggressions inflicted on the lowest that have been removed from the scene lifeless . This is at least a strong suspicion Inspectors Regional Chamber Against Gangsterism ( SRCB ) the PJ in Faro , after detecting traces inside the house of the action taken by the mother and uncle .
Doubts remain however until the discovery of the corpse , when it will also be possible to determine the possible use of bladed weapons , which could have caused serious injury to the lowest since according to PJ , the intention of the two murderers have been the same for kill the child . At issue was the attempt on the part of both economies to extort the girl who used to receive money from relatives , especially the paternal grandparents .
Yesterday , inspectors of the PJ in Faro SRCB continued to hear people near the small Joan since the investigations , classified as very complex , will continue until the full investigation of the case.
25 Sept 2004 - MOTHER OF JOAN ON PROBATION
Leonor Cipriano, the suspected death of their daughter Joana Guerreiro, 8 years, will remain in custody, according to the decision of the court of Portimão enacted in the early hours of Saturday. His brother, João Cipriano, is obligated to periodic presentations to the authorities.
The two alleged murderers, accused of killing Joanna, which occurred on September 12, in the village of Figueira, near Portimão, the Court left the premises at about 2:45 a.m., where they were heard from the evening of Friday.
Joan's body remains undiscovered, the authorities have resumed the search operations this Saturday.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/mae-de-joana-em-prisao-preventiva
62
-
I hope it's okay to copy my comment onto this new thread... which was on:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2977.90
Thanks for that. According to that link (dated 25 September 2004, 13h57), it seems to state that she would continue to be held on remand.
MÃE DE JOANA EM PRISÃO PREVENTIVA
Leonor Cipriano, suspeita da morte de sua filha Joana Guerreiro, de 8 anos, vai permanecer em prisão preventiva, segundo a decisão do tribunal de Portimão decretada na madrugada deste sábado. O seu irmão, João Cipriano, fica obrigado a apresentações periódicas às autoridades.
Os dois alegados homicidas, acusados da morte de Joana, ocorrida no dia 12 de Setembro, na aldeia de Figueira, perto de Portimão, deixaram as instalações do Tribunal cerca das 2h45, onde foram ouvidos desde a tarde de sexta-feira.
O corpo de Joana continua por encontrar, tendo as autoridades retomado as operações de busca este sábado.
One thing at a time perhaps. Where does it state that she was allowed home every day between 21- 24 Sept.?
-
From that article it sounds like they were both arrested, spent the night in jail, 23rd? next day 24th they went up before the magistrate, Leonora was kept in remand as she confessed and Joao released on bail....
-
From that article it sounds like they were both arrested, spent the night in jail, 23rd? next day 24th they went up before the magistrate, Leonora was kept in remand as she confessed and Joao released on bail....
I can't see anything to suggest that Leonor and João were released as arguidos after they were arrested on 21 Sept.
According to this (if correct) :
Leonor is taken in by the PJ on the 21 September, eleven days after her daughter disappeared. The girl's uncle, João Cipriano, remained free for one more day but was also arrested under suspicion of homicide.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html
-
I can't see anything to suggest that Leonor and João were released as arguidos after they were arrested on 21 Sept.
25 Sept 2004 - MOTHER OF JOAN ON PROBATION
Leonor Cipriano, the suspected death of their daughter Joana Guerreiro, 8 years, will remain in custody, according to the decision of the court of Portimão enacted in the early hours of Saturday. His brother, João Cipriano, is obligated to periodic presentations to the authorities.
When out on bail you are required to report to police daily, obviously he was, she wasnt....I didnt say she was released after her court appearance
At some stage between arrest on 21st and appearing in court on 24th they spent the night in jail..the 23rd it seems....the article is dated 25th, talks about appearing in court on 24th and before that had spent the night in jail....after the court she remained in custody while her brother was let out......happy to be corrected, though Ive forgotten why its important
-
- Leonor Cipriano was arrested and detained from 25 September 2004 while her brother, João Cipriano, was arrested and detained two days later. Up until that point she was allowed home under guard.
- The trial commenced on Wednesday 12 October 2005
Could you provide links, please, John?
-
Sorry Carana...trying to concentrate on two other issues so got the day wrong originally.
Up until the 24th September I believe they were allowed home but on the 24th the interrogation lasted well into the night so both were detained in police custody.
Late into the the night of the 24th João appeared before the magistrate and was bailed while Leonor was appeared later and was remanded in custody.
Report dated SATURDAY 25 Sept 2004 - MOTHER OF JOAN ON PROBATION
Leonor Cipriano, the suspected death of their daughter Joana Guerreiro, 8 years, will remain in custody, according to the decision of the court of Portimão enacted in the early hours of Saturday. Her brother, João Cipriano, is obligated to periodic presentations to the authorities.
The two alleged murderers, accused of killing Joanna, which occurred on September 12, in the village of Figueira, near Portimão, the Court left the premises at about 2:45 a.m., where they were heard from the evening of Friday.
Joan's body remains undiscovered, the authorities have resumed the search operations this Saturday.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/mae-de-joana-em-prisao-preventiva
-
25 Sept 2004 - MOTHER OF JOAN ON PROBATION
Leonor Cipriano, the suspected death of their daughter Joana Guerreiro, 8 years, will remain in custody, according to the decision of the court of Portimão enacted in the early hours of Saturday. His brother, João Cipriano, is obligated to periodic presentations to the authorities.
When out on bail you are required to report to police daily, obviously he was, she wasnt....I didnt say she was released after her court appearance
At some stage between arrest on 21st and appearing in court on 24th they spent the night in jail..the 23rd it seems....the article is dated 25th, talks about appearing in court on 24th and before that had spent the night in jail....after the court she remained in custody while her brother was let out......happy to be corrected, though Ive forgotten why its important
It might be important. I'd like to establish the facts as to when they were taken into police custody and when / if they were allowed out on bail/caution, prior to being charged.
-
Report dated THURSDAY 23 September 2004.
According to information obtained on site by the CM, Leonor Cipriano spent last night until today at home, always under police surveillance, being taken back to the Directorate of Faro PJ this morning.
De acordo com informações obtidas no local pelo CM, Leonor Cipriano terá passado a noite de ontem para hoje em casa, sempre sob vigilância policial, sendo levada de volta para a Directoria de Faro da PJ esta manhã.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/joana-assassinada
It should be noted at this stage the PJ had an excavator and was digging various pits on a piece of vacant land about half the size of a football pitch adjacent to the Cipriano home in the search for a body.
This information would have come from Leonor when she said that João told her that he had taken the body and disposed of it out back.
-
Sorry Carana...trying to concentrate on two other issues so got the day wrong originally.
Up until the 24th September I believe they were allowed home but on the 24th the interrogation lasted well into the night so both were detained in police custody.
On the night of the 25th both João and then Leonor appeared before the magistrate, João was bailed while Leonor was remanded in custody.
Report dated SATURDAY 25 Sept 2004 - MOTHER OF JOAN ON PROBATION
Leonor Cipriano, the suspected death of their daughter Joana Guerreiro, 8 years, will remain in custody, according to the decision of the court of Portimão enacted in the early hours of Saturday. Her brother, João Cipriano, is obligated to periodic presentations to the authorities.
The two alleged murderers, accused of killing Joanna, which occurred on September 12, in the village of Figueira, near Portimão, the Court left the premises at about 2:45 a.m., where they were heard from the evening of Friday.
Joan's body remains undiscovered, the authorities have resumed the search operations this Saturday.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/mae-de-joana-em-prisao-preventiva
Thanks, but the original is:
MÃE DE JOANA EM PRISÃO PREVENTIVA
Leonor Cipriano, suspeita da morte de sua filha Joana Guerreiro, de 8 anos, vai permanecer em prisão preventiva, segundo a decisão do tribunal de Portimão decretada na madrugada deste sábado.
That would seem to be the court hearing, sending her to pre-trial detention, not when she was taken into police custody.
I'm still not clear as to where she was between 21 Sept and 24 Sept (or the early hours of the 25th).
-
Report dated THURSDAY 23 September 2004.
According to information obtained on site by the CM, Leonor Cipriano spent last night until today at home, always under police surveillance, being taken back to the Directorate of Faro PJ this morning.
De acordo com informações obtidas no local pelo CM, Leonor Cipriano terá passado a noite de ontem para hoje em casa, sempre sob vigilância policial, sendo levada de volta para a Directoria de Faro da PJ esta manhã.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/joana-assassinada
It should be noted at this stage the PJ had an excavator and was digging various pits in a piece of land about half the size of a football pitch adjacent to the Cipriano home in the search for a body.
Thanks, John. Is there any other press communication that can independently corroborate that? Or any witness testimonies to that effect? Perhaps she was, I'm simply asking.
-
SAT 25 Sept 2004 - THIS MOTHER SHOULD BE DEAD
The alleged murderers (mother and uncle) of Joana were conducted yesterday afternoon to the Court of Portimão to be present at court for criminal prosecution, and was greeted by hundreds of angry people who had gathered at the site. "Assassins" was the word shouted in unison by the popular indignation while the two suspects went through the doors of the building under heavy police escort.
The interrogation of the child's uncle , John Cipriano , has ended after 20.00 and will result in the confession of crime by this , according to a source close to the process. The individual had spent the night at the Prison of Faro.
The judge then heard the child's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who spent the night in the dungeons of the Judicial Police of Faro.
-
SAT 25 Sept 2004 - THIS MOTHER SHOULD BE DEAD
The alleged murderers (mother and uncle) of Joana were conducted yesterday afternoon to the Court of Portimão to be present at court for criminal prosecution, and was greeted by hundreds of angry people who had gathered at the site. "Assassins" was the word shouted in unison by the popular indignation while the two suspects went through the doors of the building under heavy police escort.
The interrogation of the child's uncle , John Cipriano , has ended after 20.00 and will result in the confession of crime by this , according to a source close to the process. The individual had spent the night at the Prison of Faro.
The judge then heard the child's mother , Leonor Cipriano , who spent the night in the dungeons of the Judicial Police of Faro.
Please provide links to the original articles, if you can, John.
Would Portimão police station seriously have dungeons? Well, they might seem that way, but that might be going a bit far.
-
Dungeons, cells, basements, etc, whats a bit of lost in translation or nuances hey? matters so much in other cases but not this one???
Im sure they didnt have a rack there anyway
-
Please provide links to the original articles, if you can, John.
Would Portimão police station seriously have dungeons? Well, they might seem that way, but that might be going a bit far.
Sorry, though I had. http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/ultima-hora/mae-de-joana-em-prisao-preventiva
And yes, believe me they are dungeons!! I have been in the Spanish ones. A 6" hole in the corner to crap in and water dripping from an overhead pipe to drink from. A concrete slab to sleep on...
Ask any Brit who has been unlucky enough to be picked up in Benidorm, Alicante or Marbella.
-
Here is yet another piece of the puzzle. Correio da Manhã contacted Leonor directly at 00.30am on the 21st September and accused her of her daughters disappearance to which she replied..."For God's sake, I did not do that to a my daughter".
So she was at home on Tues 21st September.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/mae-nega-e-persiste-na-tese-de-rapto
-
Here is yet another piece of the puzzle. Correio da Manhã contacted Leonor directly at 12.30pm on the 21st September and accused her of her daughters disappearance to which she replied..."For God's sake, I did not do that to a my daughter".
So she was at home on the 21st September.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/mae-nega-e-persiste-na-tese-de-rapto
MÃE NEGA E PERSISTE NA TESE DE RAPTO
“Por amor de Deus, não fazia isso a uma filha minha”, foi a reacção de Leonor Cipriano, a mãe da menina desaparecida no dia 12, quando contactada telefonicamente pelo CM, pouco depois das 00h30 de hoje.
21 de Setembro 2004, 01h37
Por:José Carlos Eusébio, Portimão
In your opinion, at what time and on which date did this journo ring her?
-
Sorry, that should be 00.30hrs.
Here is another snippet from Tuesday 21 September.
Despite these developments , Leonor Cipriano has not been arrested and last night she was seen in Figueira, where she resides.
Apesar destes desenvolvimentos, Leonor Cipriano não terá sido detida e, ontem à noite, foi vista em Figueira, onde reside.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/joana-vendida-para-a-alemanha
-
So we know she was home on the morning of Thursday 23rd September but was later that day arrested and taken by the PJ to Faro.
From a report dated Fri 24 September.
After spending Wednesday under the authority of the inspectors, Leonor eventually return home that night, while in the custody of a police officer who slept in a parked car on her doorstep. Allegedly under police protection to avoid being the target of popular fury, already suspected of the involvement in the disappearance of her daughter, the woman was yesterday again taken to the PJ in Faro, which turned out to be the end. Without this confession and brother arrested yesterday morning after trying to escape when he felt the police siege tighten, PJ is now trying to find the corpse of Joana, they envisage new searches today around the village where family lived for about a year.
Depois de passar a quarta-feira sob a alçada dos inspectores, Leonor acabaria por voltar a casa nessa noite, embora sob a custódia de numa agente policial que dormiu uma viatura estacionada à sua porta. Alegadamente sob protecção policial para evitar ser alvo da fúria dos populares, face ao seu já suspeito envolvimento no desaparecimento da filha, a mulher foi ontem novamente conduzida à PJ de Faro, que acabou por detê-la. Sem uma confissão desta e do irmão, detido ontem de madrugada depois de ter tentado evadir-se quando sentiu apertar-se o cerco policial, a PJ tenta agora localizar o cadáver de Joana, estando previstas para hoje novas buscas nos arredores da aldeia onde a família reside há cerca de um ano.
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/provas-deixadas-no-local-do-crime
-
Thank you, thats what I read from the other article......dated 25th, talked about court on 24th and how previous to the court dayhad been in custody.....
Eta meant the article in the OP
-
Thank you, thats what I read from the other article......dated 25th, talked about court on 24th and how previous to the court dayhad been in custody.....
Eta meant the article in the OP
This is how I see it
20th practically the whole day at PJ while house search. 21st spoken to CM by phone at 12.30 am then she went to PJ . 22nd with PJ except for about 1.6 hours for home search then back and kept for safety/security 23rd time? arrested 24th early morning in court
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/judiciaria-suspeita-de-alta-violencia
-
I am pleased to say that I have at last identified the Cipriano former home and the route which little Joana had to take to Celia's Cafe to get the shopping. I have also identified the Multisport where the fair took place. I will start a new thread shortly with all the pictures.
-
I am pleased to say that I have at last identified the Cipriano former home and the route which little Joana had to take to Celia's Cafe to get the shopping. I have also identified the Multisport where the fair took place. I will start a new thread shortly with all the pictures.
That's great John. I can't wait to see them. Did you manage to work out where the church is, as it was on her way home from Celia caf'e
-
This is how I see it
20th practically the whole day at PJ while house search. 21st spoken to CM by phone at 12.30 am then she went to PJ . 22nd with PJ except for about 1.6 hours for home search then back and kept for safety/security 23rd time? arrested 24th early morning in court
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/atualidade/judiciaria-suspeita-de-alta-violencia
From what I can work out:
18 Sept - Questioned by Portimão PJ.
So far, from the article about CdaM phoning her after midnight on 21 Sept, she denied the allegations put to her (which weren't actually mentioned, but came from a "judicial source"), and said that she hadn't heard anything more from the PJ since being questioned on Saturday (which would have been 18 Sept).
http://www.cmjornal.xl.pt/detalhe/noticias/nacional/portugal/mae-nega-e-persiste-na-tese-de-rapto
That interview was seemingly with the Portimão PJ (before the Faro boys took over).
Four days later, the case of the missing 8 year old girl is transferred to the PJ in Portimão. Another four days later, it is transferred to the PJ Directory in Faro. The inspectors had no idea they now had in their hands one of the most complex cases ever confronted.
http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2008/10/cipriano-case-without-trace-of-joana.html
(The number of days isn't always consistent depending on the articles, but often seems to be calculated as being from 13 Sept (when the official report was filed, not the night of her disappearance.)
Gonçalo Amaral: "You can tell that the house had been cleaned, that area where the blood was found had been cleaned. It had been cleaned with petroleum purchased by Leonor on the day she left the Portimão police station.
From a link which I've temporarily lost, there was a reference to the receipt for the petrol/paraffin whatever it was apparently dated 18 Sept.
21 Sept - Faro PJ took over
As detenções de Leonor Cipriano e do irmão, João, foram feitas na quinta-feira passada pelos inspectores da Secção Regional de Combate ao Banditismo da PJ de Faro, que assumiram as investigações do caso no dia 21, oito dias após o desaparecimento.
If I've understood this, from the interview with Leandro, he seemed to find the Portimão PJ Ok, but that the Faro lot had a different approach: punching / hitting them first, then interrogating them:
L.S. – Acho que os homens da Judiciária de Portimão não eram agressivos. Sabiam conversar connosco e tentavam, pelo menos, descobrir alguma coisa. Enquanto isso, os de Faro logo no primeiro dia que nos vieram buscar, foi logo para nos bater quando lá chegámos. Primeiro era porrada, depois é que faziam as perguntas. Acho que se a PJ de Portimão tivesse continuado com a investigação, se calhar tinham sacado alguma coisa de algum lado.
(...)
A.P. – Qual foi o momento mais difícil?
L.S. – Devem ter sido os castigos que levei na Judiciária, onde me chamaram tudo e mais alguma coisa. E fui agredido sempre que lá me levaram. Mas com as porradas aguento bem. Cá fora, o pior foi a gente passar na rua e ouvir as pessoas a insultar-nos. Cada um diz aquilo que quer e a gente não pode responder. Até evitei ir a certos cafés. Mas hoje, já entro em todos. Já não ouço nada. Agora, toda a gente me cumprimenta e fala bem tanto na Figueira, como na Mexilhoeira-Grande, onde vivo. Mas mesmo quando vou a Portimão ou outros sítios, não sinto qualquer problema.
She may well have gone home at night once the heavy-duty interrogations started, which would tend to make me think that she wasn't subject to sleep deprivation torture at the time (which is a point I've been wondering about), even if she may not have had much sleep even at home.
However, if Leandro is telling the truth, I wouldn't exclude physical intimidation, nor even letting her go home to ponder the prospect of admitting to a lesser charge, as opposed to a potential murder charge, and bluffing both Leonor and João that they had accused each other... and trying to get confessions that way.
Such tactics may not be illegal, but they don't seem to have been backed up by any tangible forensic evidence to support it.
Was a lawyer present during the entire interrogation period for both Leonor and João? If not, there is no way of knowing what actually preceded these confessions.
-
I forgot to add that the earliest date that I've found about a PJ team examining the house was 22 Sept.
Forensics search the house, locate and collect traces of blood (but not yet from the fridge, seemingly).
On the other hand, the actions that are part of the reconstitution act are compatible with the blood traces that were collected in the living room (it should be noted that the reconstitution takes place in the living room), as a result of the search and apprehension act that was carried out on the 22th of September 2004 (cfr. pages 173 and 233 and following), which mentions that traces were collected on the floor, near the entrance door, inside and outside, near the interior electrical switch on the right hand side of the entrance door, near the entrance on the left hand side of the sofa, on a pair of trainers belonging to MM * Silva that were located between the sofas, on a mop (handle) and its bucket.
Por outro lado, os actos que constam do auto de reconstituição são compatíveis com os vestígios hemáticos recolhidos na sala (repare-se que a reconstituição tem lugar na sala), como resulta do auto de busca e apreensão efectuado em 22.9.2004 (cfr. fls. 173 e 233 ss), onde consta que foram recolhidos vestígios no chão, junto à porta de entrada, exterior e interiormente, junto ao interruptor eléctrico interior à direita da porta de entrada, junto à entrada do lado esquerdo do sofá, num par de ténis de MM Silva que se encontrava entre os sofás, numa esfregona (haste) e respectivo balde. Estes vestígios, segundo perícias efectuadas, são de sangue humano e de sangue humano e animal (cfr. fls. 235), e embora fossem insuficientes para averiguar a quem pertencem através do ADN (fls. 1780 ss), são reveladores de que naquela sala aconteceu algo terrível, algo que deu origem a que houvesse sangue humano no chão e nas paredes, que foram limpos com uma esfregona e balde, sendo que o sangue que estava na esfregona se encontrava na haste, revelador que quem utilizou a esfregona tinha por sua vez as mãos sujas de sangue. Assim, os vestígios recolhidos na sala vêm reforçar a fiabilidade da reconstituição.
* ETA: I've taken out the translator's reference to MM as being Leandro as that doesn't seem to be accurate.
-
Clearly when she came up against the examining magistrate on the 24 September 2004, her confession was not as a result of having been beaten up as some have consistently suggested. She was detained while brother João was released, albeit only for two days.
I wonder was the release of João a tactic by the PJ to see where he went?
-
Clearly when she came up against the examining magistrate on the 24 September 2004, her confession was not as a result of having been beaten up as some have consistently suggested. She was detained while brother João was released, albeit only for two days.
I wonder was the release of João a tactic by the PJ to see where he went?
The articles seem conflicting at the moment. Was she detained in custody as of 21 Sept while João was released and taken in again the next day, to see where he went? Possible. If she was allowed home after her interrogation at the end of 21 Sept... how long for?
I am not pushing the idea that Leonor was beaten up at the time of that confession, although I certainly wouldn't exclude rough-handling (Leandro's interview two years later says that he and others were, so - if what he says is true - why would she have been treated more delicately?). I wouldn't exclude the idea of allowing her to go home to see her children and ponder accepting a lesser plea so that Leandro could continue to bring up the kids. *
These interrogation sessions don't seem to have been recorded via audio / video, so perhaps we will never know.
There's something else that bothers me... but I'm trying to find the extracts in question.
* Eta: perhaps even trying to find Joana if they truly didn't know what had happened to her.
-
When was the first time that the PJ inspected the house? On 22 Sept, before.. after?
According to other links that I've posted the PJ Faro team only took over on 21 Sept and inspected the house on 22 Sept.
Would this seem to be correct or not?
-
I don't think we'll get anywhere on working out the interrogation techniques used back in September. They could have been served coffee and cakes every hour or have been punched / intimidated into possibly false confessions.
Leandro has stated that he and others were beaten when they were taken into Faro station. He also said that João didn't seem to be behaving normally when he had to go for this reconstruction, and Leonor was beaten black and blue at a later date.
Aside from the "confessions", what else supports what is alleged to have happened?
-
The law has since changed - arguido statements are now admissible, which was not the case back then. I think John's argument is that the torture occured after her preliminary "admission" to a lesser charge. My argument is that the circumstances leading up to even that preliminary one aren't clear (deprivation of sleep, or any threat that could affect her family is a form of torture, for example). Her various (pro bono) lawyers had assumed that the case would be dismissied... but they were wrong.
Interesting.
I wasn't aware of that.
And yes, I'm fully with you that interrogators capable of inflicting actual torture are equally capable of preceding torture with threats and menaces that leave no physical marks, but do the "job" of intimidating their recipients into saying things the aggressors want to hear ...
-
There still appears to be a belief by some that Leonor Cipriano didn't initially confess her involvement in the disappearance of her daughter Joana. Please ask yourself the question as to why did Leonor direct the PJ to the supposed burial site of her daughter if she didn't know what happened to her? Her actions were, to put it mildly, extremely revealing.
See > Ciprianos confess before the judge of instruction of the Court of Portimão (http://www.miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5783.0)
Some historic reports appear to have been taken down but this one by PÚBLICO remains.
Mother of Joana in preventative custody
Público
25 September 2004
The Court of Portimão decided today the arrest of Leonor Cipriano, accused of the death of her daughter Joana Guerreiro, age 8, and determined a lighter coercion measure, periodic presentations to the authorities for the alleged murderer's brother.
The two suspects authored by Joana's death, which occurred 13 days ago in the village of Figueira, near Portimao, we present at the Court's premises until 2.45 a.m., where they had been heard from 17.00 yesterday.
Held on Thursday by the Judicial Police, the child's mother saw the suspicions confirmed by the judge of the Court of Portimão, who decided her probation, while her brother and uncle of the murdered girl is subject to periodic presentations to the authorities.
As on arrival at the court, the authorities staged a false start by the main door, leading the two suspects through the back door, to circumvent the several dozen angry locals that remained on site since yesterday morning.
The child's body remains missing, it is unknown whether the search operations on the banks of the river Bran, next to the railway bridge, will continue today. This was the last place indicated to the police by the child's mother, after more than a dozen false leads. As source from the GNR explained to Lusa, the child's mother said the body of Joana Guerreiro had been "hidden close to home until around 1:00 a.m. (day 13) and then transported by her uncle, in a plastic bag, and buried in the area where they picked cockles ", where the searches took place.
www.cmjornal.xl.pt/cm_ao_minuto/detalhe/mae-de-joana-em-prisao-preventiva.html
-
The law has since changed - arguido statements are now admissible, which was not the case back then. I think John's argument is that the torture occurred after her preliminary "admission" to a lesser charge. My argument is that the circumstances leading up to even that preliminary one aren't clear (deprivation of sleep, or any threat that could affect her family is a form of torture, for example). Her various (pro bono) lawyers had assumed that the case would be dismissed... but they were wrong.
Sorry Carana, your original post was lost in the transfer of off topic posts from another thread.
However, if I may respond albeit belatedly.
The initial admission by Leonor was to having slapped Joana so hard and in such a manner that she hit her head off a stone wall and succumbed to her injuries. She did not confess to first degree murder as we know it. Leonor's brother agreed with this in his own 'confession' stating that he thereafter hid the body.
We all know now of course that the story later changed to that of a child trafficking deal gone wrong.
Point is, whatever you choose to believe renders both Leonor and João culpable.
-
John, I used to think so as well, until I discovered that numerous witness statements hadn't been translated, one of which was Leandro's.
My summary of the following extract:
When Leandro had gone to the PJ station, at their request, he talked to Leonor alone. He asked her what she had told them and she said that she she had hit Joana and her brother killed her off because she had seen them having sex. She allegedly also said that the the body in an old house and João [levá-la às costas - not sure what that means]. Later, when Leandro visited the arguida Leonor in Odemira prison, she denied what she'd told him and said that she'd only said that because the PJ had beaten her. When asked whether, on the day that Leonor had admitted having aggressed Joana, she had shown any signs of having been beaten, particularly whether her face or eyes were swollen or bruised, he replied that he hadn't.
Declarou ainda a testemunha que numa altura em que se encontrou com a arguida BB nas instalações da Polícia Judiciária, a pedido daquela Polícia, mas numa altura em que se encontravam só os dois, a testemunha perguntou à BB o que tinha acontecido e ela então contou-lhe que "tinha dado uma chapada na CC e que o irmão acabou de a matar", tudo "porque ela os tinha visto a ter relações" e também contou que "tinham posto o corpo numa casa velha e que tinha sido o AA a levá-la às costas". Posteriormente, quando a testemunha foi visitar a arguida BB à cadeia de Odemira, ela negou o que tinha dito e referiu-lhe que só tinha afirmado aquelas coisas porque a Polícia Judiciária lhe tinha batido. Questionado sobre se no dia em que a BB lhe tinha confessado ter agredido CC, a mesma apresentava marcas de ter sido batida, nomeadamente se tinha a cara ou os olhos inchados ou vermelhos, a testemunha disse que não.
I find that ambiguous.
It's possible that she actually did confess of her own free will to the PJ that she'd injured the child.
However... it's equally possible that she was coerced into that confession (aggressive interrogation and an unofficial plea bargain (faced with the greater threat of being charged for murder, losing custody of her children, etc.). It's quite possible that she was punched at the time, but not around the face.
There was also a very long interview with Leandro in a newspaper which I can no longer find online. It was possibly in the AlgarveNews (which is in Portuguese) or Barlavento *, and I believe it preceded Madeleine's disappearance. The occasion was the anniversary of her disappearance - quite possibly the second - which would have been September 2006.
In it, Leandro stated that he and others had been beaten when they were interrogated... so why would Leonor have been spared? He also said that Leonor had been a good mother and had never even slapped Joana. If she'd been naughty, Leonor asked him to mete out any punishment, which was generally being deprived of watching TV. He didn't believe that she was capable of harming her (she couldn't even cope with chopping up a chicken). He wasn't too sure about João, but still tended to think that she'd been abducted. He also said that he felt sure that she had never been unfaithful to him during their time together and would certainly never have had sex with her brother.
Many other witness statements (ranging from neutral to positive) were never translated for some reason.
It doesn't even make sense that they would have had wild sex during Joana's errand as - quite aside from the risk of Joana coming back home, Leandro and the other guy who lived there could have stopped back home at any moment.
The PJ didn't even inspect the house until a couple of weeks after her disappearance. Although they did find a few specks of blood (human and animal), none of it could be identified, nor could there be any indication as to when they were deposited. The black torch that they flashed around would have shown up any biological trace - including sweaty handprints, particularly near a door if there was a light switch nearby. None of that is commensurate with the PJ's massacre theory, nor the supposed "confessions".
Before I get accused of making excuses for child murderers, I'm not. As I've said numerous times, if they did indeed do what they were alleged to have done, they can rot in prison as far as I'm concerned. The issue, for me, is that the alleged scenario is implausible in the circumstances and there is no other evidence to support it aside from the dubious confessions / "reconstruction".
ETA:
It was in the AlgarvePress. My recollection is correct: it was published on 12 September 2006 (i.e., before Madeleine's disappearance).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3353.msg127583#msg127583
However, I can't access the full article. Could you help, John?
-
John, I used to think so as well, until I discovered that numerous witness statements hadn't been translated, one of which was Leandro's.
My summary of the following extract:
When Leandro had gone to the PJ station, at their request, he talked to Leonor alone. He asked her what she had told them and she said that she she had hit Joana and her brother killed her off because she had seen them having sex. She allegedly also said that the the body in an old house and João [levá-la às costas - not sure what that means]. Later, when Leandro visited the arguida Leonor in Odemira prison, she denied what she'd told him and said that she'd only said that because the PJ had beaten her. When asked whether, on the day that Leonor had admitted having aggressed Joana, she had shown any signs of having been beaten, particularly whether her face or eyes were swollen or bruised, he replied that he hadn't.
Declarou ainda a testemunha que numa altura em que se encontrou com a arguida BB nas instalações da Polícia Judiciária, a pedido daquela Polícia, mas numa altura em que se encontravam só os dois, a testemunha perguntou à BB o que tinha acontecido e ela então contou-lhe que "tinha dado uma chapada na CC e que o irmão acabou de a matar", tudo "porque ela os tinha visto a ter relações" e também contou que "tinham posto o corpo numa casa velha e que tinha sido o AA a levá-la às costas". Posteriormente, quando a testemunha foi visitar a arguida BB à cadeia de Odemira, ela negou o que tinha dito e referiu-lhe que só tinha afirmado aquelas coisas porque a Polícia Judiciária lhe tinha batido. Questionado sobre se no dia em que a BB lhe tinha confessado ter agredido CC, a mesma apresentava marcas de ter sido batida, nomeadamente se tinha a cara ou os olhos inchados ou vermelhos, a testemunha disse que não.
I find that ambiguous.
It's possible that she actually did confess of her own free will to the PJ that she'd injured the child.
However... it's equally possible that she was coerced into that confession (aggressive interrogation and an unofficial plea bargain (faced with the greater threat of being charged for murder, losing custody of her children, etc.). It's quite possible that she was punched at the time, but not around the face.
There was also a very long interview with Leandro in a newspaper which I can no longer find online. It was possibly in the AlgarveNews (which is in Portuguese) or Barlavento *, and I believe it preceded Madeleine's disappearance. The occasion was the anniversary of her disappearance - quite possibly the second - which would have been September 2006.
In it, Leandro stated that he and others had been beaten when they were interrogated... so why would Leonor have been spared? He also said that Leonor had been a good mother and had never even slapped Joana. If she'd been naughty, Leonor asked him to mete out any punishment, which was generally being deprived of watching TV. He didn't believe that she was capable of harming her (she couldn't even cope with chopping up a chicken). He wasn't too sure about João, but still tended to think that she'd been abducted. He also said that he felt sure that she had never been unfaithful to him during their time together and would certainly never have had sex with her brother.
Many other witness statements (ranging from neutral to positive) were never translated for some reason.
It doesn't even make sense that they would have had wild sex during Joana's errand as - quite aside from the risk of Joana coming back home, Leandro and the other guy who lived there could have stopped back home at any moment.
The PJ didn't even inspect the house until a couple of weeks after her disappearance. Although they did find a few specks of blood (human and animal), none of it could be identified, nor could there be any indication as to when they were deposited. The black torch that they flashed around would have shown up any biological trace - including sweaty handprints, particularly near a door if there was a light switch nearby. None of that is commensurate with the PJ's massacre theory, nor the supposed "confessions".
Before I get accused of making excuses for child murderers, I'm not. As I've said numerous times, if they did indeed do what they were alleged to have done, they can rot in prison as far as I'm concerned. The issue, for me, is that the alleged scenario is implausible in the circumstances and there is no other evidence to support it aside from the dubious confessions / "reconstruction".
ETA:
It was in the AlgarvePress. My recollection is correct: it was published on 12 September 2006 (i.e., before Madeleine's disappearance).
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3353.msg127583#msg127583
However, I can't access the full article. Could you help, John?
I cant get it either. Is this any help. I;m not sure what you are looking for.
http://noticias.sapo.pt/lusa/artigo/0Q9UX8CiCQpPrece38DtUw.html
-
@Carana, News of family ill treatment, that I believe you were looking for............
Detective in McCann Case Investigated For Beating Convicted Child Murderer
PRAIA DA LUZ, Portugal, Sept. 26, 2007
By FABIOLA ANTEZANA
The husband of a convicted murderer has accused the Portuguese investigator spearheading the case of Madeleine McCann of beating a confession out of his wife.
Leonor Cipriano, 36, was convicted of the murder of her eight-year-old daughter Joana, who disappeared in the Algarve region in September 2004 under similar circumstances to the McCann disappearance.
In an exclusive interview, Cipriano's common-law husband, Leandro Silva, told ABC News that his wife said she was beaten repeatedly as police grilled her during a three-day long interrogation.
"'They beat it out of me', she told me, 'they beat me until I confessed,'" Silva said as he recalled his first visit to his wife about a week after police took her into custody.
"The only difference between the McCanns and us is that we don't have money," Silva said. "They have means, they have high powered attorneys that they can pay."
According to Silva, his wife told him that chief inspector Gonçalo Amaral, one of the leading detectives in the McCann case, watched as police hit her in the face and chest again and again.
Local newspapers have reported that Amaral and four other officers will be in court next month to face charges surrounding the beating allegations. But Amaral has not been suspended from his work on the McCann case.
Cipriano is currently serving a 16-year sentence for the murder of Joana who disappeared in 2004 in a town less than 15 miles from where Madeleine McCann disappeared nearly five months ago.
Joana's body has never been found. McCann, who was 3 years old when she went missing has also not been found, but the family and police still hold out hope that she is still alive.
Kate McCann and her husband, Gerry, were declared "arguido," or official suspects, last month, although under Portuguese law, the police are not allowed to divulge publicly what evidence they have. But the couple, both doctors and substantially well-off, have been allowed to leave Portugal.
Confession at All Costs Alleged
Silva said his wife retracted her statement just two days after confessing to Portuguese police, but she remains in a women's prison in Odemira, about a two-hour drive from Praia da Luz.
Joana went missing one night when her parents say she went for a short walk to the local market in her home town of Figuera, near Portimão. Cipriano was arrested and convicted, in part because of her confession, along with the discovery of some of Joana's blood, police say they found in Cipriano's home.
Maddie also disappeared just minutes from where her parents were dining at the Ocean Club in Praia da Luz in May 2007.
"I knew immediately that it was the police that had done that to her," Silva said. "They wanted her to confess to a crime she did not commit."
He shakes his head back and forth saying that the police in Portugal don't work professionally.
Amaral could not be reached for comment and police refused to talk about the allegations.
"We all saw the bruises," Silva said. "My mother, my sister and me. Leonor's face was all battered and bruised, so was her chest."
"Leonor was a good person, she didn't deserve this, but then there is no justice for the poor."
Inequality Alleged Between Rich and Poor Suspects
Silva, a 41-year-old auto mechanic, said his wife is not the only member of his family to be treated roughly by Portuguese police.
Detective in McCann Case Investigated For Beating Convicted Child Murderer
PRAIA DA LUZ, Portugal, Sept. 26, 2007
Page 2 of 3
Maria de Lourdes, Silva's mother, who visits her daughter-in-law regularly in prison, said she was also abused by Portuguese police in Faro in interviews conducted during the Joana investigation.
"The police in Portimão treated us really well," she told ABC News in her home near Lagos. "But the Faro police were awful. They gave us nothing to eat or drink the whole day," said the 57-year-old mother of nine. "They battered us physically and mentally."
Amaral was always present during questioning, de Lourdes said her daughter-in-law told her.
"He controlled everything," she said. "And he kept asking me: 'Did you see blood in the house?' 'I'm sure you cleaned the house with petrol to get rid of the smell.'"
"They have accused us of everything that we killed Joana, that we stabbed her, even that we sold her," de Lourdes said.
But as far as de Lourdes is concerned, the worst thing is not knowing what happened to Joana and then being blamed for her disappearance.
"How can they prove that we had anything to do with her disappearance?"
Privileged vs. Poor
"If Kate McCann were Portuguese, she would already be in jail," said de Lourdes.
The McCann's circle of friends and savvy contacts have been able to generate the kind of media attention that has made their daughter's face instantly recognizable all over the world. They have also hired top attorneys in Portugal and the U.K., as well as forensic experts to pick apart every DNA sample gathered by investigators.
The couple has also received financial backing from a British millionaire Brian Kennedy, a move that may have saved the 39-year-old doctors from having to sell their home to cover their legal defense.
Still, despite her bitterness over what she believes is her own daughter-in-laws wrongful conviction de Lourdes is convinced of Kate McCann's innocence. In fact the slightest mention of the couple brings empathy from de Lourdes.
"I don't think that that woman is capable of doing something like that to her daughter," she said. "I just don't believe it."
"The same Portuguese press that are now chasing the McCanns are the same journalists who were on my doorstep when Joana disappeared," she said.
And while she knows that she and Kate McCann come from very different worlds their situations are parallel.
"Our plight is not so different anymore," she said. "So I cannot help but feel for that woman. After all we are on the same path."
De Lourdes recalls vividly the day Joana went missing.
"I got the phone call around midnight," said de Lourdes. "My son Leandro was asking me if Joana was here with me." They then went to look for her at the cousin's house where she spent the afternoon.
"When I didn't hear from them again, I assumed they had found her," she said.
But the following morning when de Lourdes was getting ready to pick up her son to go to work, she saw her daughter in law Leonor walking down the street sobbing hysterically.
"'Joana is missing,'" she told me.
The girl's parents called police within an hour of Joana's disappearance. But according to Leandro and his mother, police did not begin searching for his daughter until 48 hours after they reported her missing.
Life After Joana
Silva remains convinced of his wife's innocence. But he is particularly bitter about Amaral, against whom he has lodged a formal complaint.
"He (Amaral) should not even be working on this (the McCanns') case," said Silva.
If the beating charges turn out to be true it will hurt the McCann investigation, according to Roy Ramm, former commander of special investigations at Scotland Yard. Ramm told ABC News: "This is not something you would expect to find in the U.K. When someone has allegations of falsifying evidence and beating a witness and these are very serious allegations -- it does not bode well for the case."
"People have to have confidence in the person leading the investigation," he added. "Otherwise the chances of a satisfactory outcome are jeopardized."
In a book entitled "The Star of Joana," former Portuguese detective Paulo Pereira Cristovão alleges how police took too long in organizing a search for the little girl.
Silva thinks his wife's beating was a simple matter of the police needing to find a suspect as well as maintaining a safe image for tourists who come to the Algarve.
He calls the accusations against her ridiculous. "She was a great mother," said Silva. "She never even hit Joana, not once even when our little girl insulted her."
Joana was not Silva's biological daughter but he insists she was still his daughter. "First they took my daughter, now the police have taken my love, my lifelong partner."
Page
Page http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/story?id=3646987&page=1
-
Thanks Anna. It's not the original that appeared in the Portuguese press (in Portuguese and before Madeleine's disappearance), but from memory it does seem to be an account of that interview.
-
Thanks Anna. It's not the original that appeared in the Portuguese press (in Portuguese and before Madeleine's disappearance), but from memory it does seem to be an account of that interview.
I think that the Portuguese press, article, may have been wiped, but when I get someone to bring my old laptop in, I might find it is on there. Fingers crossed.
I know the one that you are talking about and I believe that Leandro's brother and Joao were also mentioned on it.
-
I think that the Portuguese press, article, may have been wiped, but when I get someone to bring my old laptop in, I might find it is on there. Fingers crossed.
I know the one that you are talking about and I believe that Leandro's brother and Joao were also mentioned on it.
Thanks, Anna. It was a long interview and I found it very interesting. It was published on an anniversary date related to Joana... before Madeleine disappeared.
-
Anna, the article (in fact it was a lengthy interview with Leandro) was published on the 2nd anniversary of her disappearance (12 Sept. 2006), if ever you stumble upon it.
I'm reasonably sure that it was in algarvepress.net (which no longer seems to exist).
-
Anna, the article (in fact it was a lengthy interview with Leandro) was published on the 2nd anniversary of her disappearance (12 Sept. 2006), if ever you stumble upon it.
I'm reasonably sure that it was in algarvepress.net (which no longer seems to exist).
I will see what I can find, Carana. I didn't keep much that I can remember from this newspaper.....but who knows.
I just need to wait for my granddaughter to get my old laptop in for me. Fingers crossed there is something in there.
-
Anna,
I've found a Google translate version of it. Yeah!
Better than nothing. It's long so I'll have to post in 2 or more batches.
Suspect that a lady who lived in Figueira is involved in the disappearance of Joana
If Joana - 12:09:06
Leandro Silva, stepfather of Joana Cipriano, who disappeared on 09.12.2004 in the village of Figueira (Faro) while returning home after going shopping for an indication of the mother, still believes that the child, then eight years, was abducted or sold. Killed by his own mother and an uncle, as has proven by a court of Portimão, is that
The first hypothesis assumes Leandro for the first time in this interview for "Algarve press" his suspicions about the possible role of a friend of Joan, who eventually move to England. In relation to a possible sale, admits that "Drug" Joana's uncle "is capable of anything." He complains of the conduct of the Judicial Police and believes that "this story is very poorly told from the beginning."
From Prison Odemira, where he is serving a sentence reduced recently by the Supreme Court for 16 years after being declared, together with his brother John Manuel, guilty of first degree murder and concealment of the corpse of her daughter (who has not yet appeared) by the court consisting of first instance judges, Leonor Cipriano continues claiming innocence.
Chain of the Pinheiro da Cruz, near Setúbal, the uncle of Joana says girl sold by her mother and that the money is held by the family of his stepfather, which both deny. The PJ, in turn, maintains the belief that the minor was devoured by pigs. In this sea of doubts and contradictions, the only certainty is that, two years later, nobody knows the whereabouts of Joan or her that may still remain.
Algarve Press - Today, after exactly two years since the disappearance of his stepdaughter, Joana Cipriano, from the village of Figueira, near Portimao, where the family lived, what do you think actually happened?
Leandro Silva - I still think that has been kidnapped. In the latter case, if that happened, and was sold only to people who treat well. Is not dead. Do not believe it.
A.P. - Why believe in selling?
L.S. - I do not know ... But as the mother of John (Joan's uncle) already says that secondary to drugs and things he can do it ...
AP - Suspected, then, that John Cipriano had sold his niece?
L.S. - Compared to him I believe in everything and anything. But from the outset, I still think that especially Joana was abducted.
AP - The family has insisted that someone from Figueira could be involved in this situation? We also believe that?
L.S. - I believe. A lady turned out to go to England even before the trial, ie, one year after the Joana had disappeared. My whole family thinks she may be involved in this case.
AP - In Prison Odemira, home to nearly two years, Leonor Cipriano, mother of Joan, ever said that the girl could have been taken by someone with connections to Figueira?
L.S. - The Eleanor also thinks the same as us. And this lady spoke mainly due to the fact that thought go away shortly after the disappearance of Joanna. She was very fond of Jane, gave him clothes and toys. Everything.
AP - But just why I think she might be behind the disappearance of the child?
L.S. - No, it is just that. It's the way it came out of the country mean: large business that was in Figueira to go to work for others?
AP - But this lady that alludes, was a witness (in a recorded statement to future memory) in the trial of Joan case in the Court of Portimão, where he said the only thing not done and should have done was taken the girl in the family ...
L.S. - Look, this is also another one ... Well ... It think so ... This lady even took a turn Joana Hospital in the western, in Lagos because of a cough. And at the same time, I think, at least according to peruse came after the disappearance of Joana, who took the opportunity to ask medical tests to see if she had been raped. I do not know what was her idea. But not even asked her parents (in my case stepfather) if he could take the kid to the doctor or anything. It is the mother of Jeanne was at home.
AP - He came to seek an explanation for what happened to that lady?
L.S. - No, no. At the time, we brought no harm.
A.P. - When he began to distrust her?
L.S. - When it's gone in Figueira.
AP - Have you ever talked to the Judicial Police on that your guess?
L.S. - No.
AP - But by the time that Jane is gone, this lady was in the Algarve and was even the people most committed to working with family, attempting to locate the girl, and with the PJ in the investigations. So how could be involved in this case?
L.S. - I don 't know. But they suspect it, suspect. It is the only person who, until now, I think I may have done something. It was she who was always with the girl. Where to see her, she would soon talk to. To death, and while there is no indication to the contrary, I continue to think the same way.
Neither kill a chicken knows how much to cut her daughter and give it to the pigs
AP - But the Judiciary continues to believe that Jane was killed in the house where he lived in the village of Figueira, and body dismembered and eaten by pigs in a piggery, where eventually come out and be slaughtered. What do you think of this version?
L.S. - I think not. That the pigs I did it to them (PJ) where they were when they sent me to talk with Eleanor in the Judiciary in Faro. If I had not talked them into pigs, nobody went. As I said in the animals, once said that Joan had been given to the pigs. The Leonor nor would it expedient. Not kill a chicken knows how much to cut her daughter and give her the bodies
AP - How did the information about the pigs?
L.S. - It was a big bullshit. The Leonor told me the area, although I do not know it because it took a beating in judicial or being instructed to do so. I do not know. Know is that she told me that path where there was a house and old cars. I told him that this road because I know there once. And I know there are some old cars and the only old house situated in the area. And there were pigs, which she confirmed to me then. Of course I tell the Judiciary what they asked me to ask you. That's where this issue was born pigs. And PJ was with me to the place depending on the particulars of Leonor. Now, do not really know if even the pigs eat human flesh or not. What I know is that the Judiciary has been investigating and there does not seem to find anything. They sure if there was anything, there would have been hair or other things.
AP - But what you said Leonor specifically about pigs?
L.S. - She told me that John (the brother) had taken the girl piggyback and that she (Eleanor) was next to him. Then he told me that there Joana left inside this old house where are these two old cars, after which they came to the house where I lived fetch a blanket and went back there and they stopped the girl. This story about the disappearance of Joana is very poorly told from the beginning.
AP - The hours that left Leonor home that night?
L.S. - I was always home and did not see her leave. And at least in that house I lay me every afternoon. She would see up to as many movies.
AP - But after all, who would have released the body of Joanna to the pigs?
L.S. - As she said on Judiciary, the body had originally been hidden behind the wall in rubble that was near the house where we lived in Figueira. And I had been there on Sunday, the day the girl disappeared, Monday and Tuesday only in that it was taking. At night. To be true, some would always smell. But apparently, no one was there any smell, no noise heard at home on Sunday night. At least that's what the landlady said to me. And she, who lives in the first floor of the same building, says he hears everything, even when I went to the toilet. On that day, heard nothing ...
AP - As you understand, no one believes you, as the stepfather of Joan, do not know anything ...
L.S. - It's easy to everyone to think so. And you know why? Because people are not on our skin. Each has its idea. And I'm not up against them, no. If you were in their shoes, maybe thought the same. So do not bother me with that. Have not care importance.
Jane called her mother and her words remained silent
AP - heard many 'mouths' over these two years?
L.S. - Many, many.
AP - What he said after the disappearance of Joanna?
L.S. - So much. So ...
A.P. - They called it murder?
L.S. - Everything! But with the help of my mother and my stepfather, stood up well. I have a family that helps me.
AP - João Cipriano, Joana's uncle, sent two letters from Prison Pinheiro da Cruz, near Setúbal, a sister resident in the area of Enxerim in Silves, noted that the girl was sold by her mother. And in a letter by indicating that "whoever has money is a family of Leandro." How do you react to this?
L.S. - I would also like to know ... But it is just talk.
A.P. - and knew her husband's brother?
L.S. - No, John was seldom to my house. But when I went, was there one day, two days. It is those people who does not speak much. When finished eating, I was sitting watching TV and said nothing.
AP - Over a week before being arrested by the PJ, what he said to Eleanor, continuing to live with him in the same house?
L.S. - Fart is crying. And asked: "Where is my daughter? Where is my daughter? "Just crying.
A.P. - And the uncle of Joana?
L.S. - If I remember correctly, was at home until Tuesday (Joana vanished on Sunday.)
A.P-ever suspicious of his wife? Never surprised all of that situation?
L.S. - Dona Leonor? Never! Relied much on it. I continue to trust, even though sometimes look like a little dick.
A.P. - What something?
L.S. - Staying well in doubt. But trust her. She never did harm to her daughter.
AP - How was the relationship with Eleanor Jane?
L.S. - Good. Joana could tell him everything she answered nothing. Expected me to come home to tell me I give a 'castigozinho' the girl, who was put you in the room to do the homework. And just get out of there when I was done.
A.P. - Never slapped his stepdaughter?
L.S-Nothing! Never! Which way? Neither the mother, the more it.
AP - And ever saw hit the Leonor Joan?
L.S. - I've never seen. Who shouted with Joana was me.
A.P. - Why?
L.S. - Joana was refilona. And reached the point of swearing to call his mother.
A.P. - How, for example?
L.S. - Until he called him a bitch.
A.P. - But why?
L.S. - I do not know. Got angry and upset after the mother called a whore. I do not know if it were words that came out of the mouth or something. Then his mother told me when I came home from work.
AP - As Eleanor responded to listen to his own daughter to insult her?
L.S. - Just say that I would know. But I never beat her. By Ruben (son, now four years) came to spank twice or thrice. As Joan, ever. At least while he was with me.
AP - His son Ruben, who is with her sister Lara (3 years) in Catraia, support institution for minors located in Lagos, has told a social worker that "men led to Jane" ...
L.S. - Oh yeah ... he also told me the same thing and I think my mother too. But that pipeline was to hear about it. Sometimes, someone said or something and he had said the same.
PA-But what you said in your particular child?
L.S. - Men caught in Joana, threw her a car and were very hard. It was what he said when he was already in Catraia in Portimão. That is why it is said that the pipeline was some talk that he heard.
Joana's uncle, or was drunk or was instructed to acknowledge the death and dismemberment of her niece in the video shown in court
AP - You saw the videotape during the trial of his wife and his brother at the Court of Portimao, where John Cipriano took to killing Joanna and dismembered the body, hiding it in a refrigerated cabinet. What do you think of this confession?
L.S. - I think was he was with the glasses ...
AP - As we know, accompanied him on the day he made that rebuilding the house where Joana lived ...
L.S. - Followed. The Judiciary was get me to junk it because I had the house key. We went to the Penina waiting for more police personnel. Then I went to the bar of a gas station for fuel with two members of PJ have a beer. However, the car arrived with John and others of the Judiciary. They sent me to get this car, but forbade them to talk. The John was there with a beer in hand and was still clinging to each other. Although he does not know well, I think he was drunk when he walked inside the house to do what we saw in court. And I do not even entered. Just open the door. Then they walked that is coiled inside. I was always outside. In the video now in court, we see that John was not normal at the time. Or was instructed to do it or found himself drunk. Something he had.
AP - But what seemed to have assumed that he cut the body of Joan into several parts?
L.S. - The knives I had at home were all cooking, but small. And with barely an inch of blade. Never had large knives. What is that John would have at home to do what they told the Judiciary? Only if a neighbor to borrow an ax or a saw. Moreover, the refrigerator cabinet where he says he got the body is small. Just try to put two chickens in the freezer, you see that do not fit. After it has three drawers. To enter a body inside, they had to take the drawers, all out. The Eleanor nor can cuddle a chicken to cut the more cutting the body of Joanna.
AP - And John would have the courage and ability to do so?
L.S. - Tuesday, has. As his mother, a drug he is able to do everything. But nothing can assure me that he did. The John was very fond of her niece.
A.P. - would be more able to kill or sell?
L.S. - Why the drug, would be able to sell. Sometimes there could be debt or something. What Leonor told me, after a day or two, is that he sent to Joan to shopping and John soon followed behind her. And if anyone knows what happened to the girl, he will be.
AP - Have you ever sought an explanation from his brother?
L.S. - No.
A.P. - Why?
L.S. - Because he said that when he came out looking for me. But at the time, Leonor became suspicious with his brother.
Escape from young Austrian woman revives hope that Jane is alive
A.P. - spoke on drugs. What type of drug that John Cipriano consumed?
L.S. - Everything. But for the vein do not think so. Now, hashish and dust ...
AP - And Leonor also consumed drugs?
L.S. - Not even drank the more drugging. Just sometimes drank a licorzinho.
AP - What did you think when you saw the news about the young Austrian Natascha Kampusch who escaped from the kidnapper after being kidnapped in the basement of a house for more than eight years?
L.S. - I immediately thought the same would happen to Jen. I do not say now, already, already. But even if it was five or six years. If it is in the same situation who was that girl in Austria, will be expedient for free. Joanna is very smart. Even for age (eight years) that she had disappeared when it was already too smart. While there is life there is hope. And there's nothing you do in this life that do not come to know. Then we'd see ...
A.P. - What would you do then?
L.S. - I do not know ... That's harder to say. But someone must-pay for what we spent. I wish it to appear one day. We then talk ...
AP - What do you think the first action taken by the GNR and then by the PJ to try to discover Joan?
L.S. - I think the men of the Judiciary Portimão were not aggressive. Knew how to talk with us and tried to at least find something. Meanwhile, the Faro on the first day we came for, was soon to hit us when we got there. First it was a beating, after that did the questions. I think if the PJ of Portimão has continued to research, perhaps something had drawn somewhere.
A.P. - And the GNR?
L.S. - I had a deadline to do the job, as we said. Do not know who failed. Before, they said that only after 24 hours after the disappearance of Joana is that they could begin to look for it as required by law. I find this annoying because it is a child. If you were an adult with 18, 20 years, would be different. She could have gone to have with your girlfriend or boyfriend. Now, with an eight year old still having to wait 24 hours to be given officially as missing and go looking, is it weird.
They should have closed the house for anyone to enter there
A.P. - Also surprised that the police did not go immediately to the house where Jane lived and sealed the area?
L.S. - Look, this is another! While there were, instead of not letting me sleep there, they had sealed the house. They should have closed the house for anyone to enter. I would have taken only a few clothes and ready. The house had to be sealed. I've heard many people say the same. Then they say that the evidence was destroyed.
AP - How has your life these past two years?
L.S. - It's better now. Life can not stop. But in principle, when Joan disappeared, it was difficult not only for me.
A.P. - Which was the toughest moment?
L.S. - Must have been the punishment that I took on Judicial where they called me everything and then some. And I was beaten when they took me there. But with the punches and stand. Outside, the worst thing was we pass on the street and hear people insult us. Everyone says what he wants and we can not answer. Until I avoided going to certain cafes. But now I go into all. No longer hear anything. Now, everyone greets me and speaks well both in Figueira, as in Mexilhoeira Grande, where living. But even when going to Portimao or elsewhere, do not feel any problem.
-
A.P. - Come head on?
L.S. - Whenever I went.
A.P. - And how are your two sons?
L.S. - Well, are already in Catraia in Portimão will be two years. But soon will come out. In principle, Ruben will be with my mother, who lives in Mexilhoeira Grande. And Lara is going to be with my sister, who lives in the area of the Companion, in Portimão.
A.P. - How is your relationship with them?
L.S. - It's good. I will get them in Catraia every Sunday. My Ruben has asked me to return home permanently. Likes to be where it is, but the family is different, as is natural.
AP - They have gone to see the mother to the chain of Odemira?
L.S. - My mom is working on it to see if there will.
AP - And how long have you not seen the Leonora?
L.S. - I do not know. Maybe a year ago.
A.P. - Why?
L.S. - Because now I have stolen the documents. And without these can not enter. I must find new roles. Just for this reason and she knows.
AP - Leonor who writes in the letters it sends to the family?
L.S. - Demands Money and anything it lacks. He asks when will we see it. She says she feels really miss the children that God is great and she is innocent. And I still believe in her innocence. There are times when I am so in doubt, but I am convinced that Leonor is innocent.
A.P. - What heights still doubt it?
L.S. - I do not know, sometimes when I get there and stop to think if she is innocent or not. Why? Because she once wanted to become involved in this case, telling the Judicial I helped her hide the body of Jane and Carlos Pinto that had led him to the scrap yard where he worked. And sometimes I'm thinking, but why she did it in? On the other hand, I also think that things were gutter mitted by them in her head.
AP - You came to be accused in the process ...
L.S. - It's true. I scrambled a bit, knowing that I have nothing to do with the matter. But the case was filed. I just had to go to court as a witness at trial, in which also only spoke because I felt talk. Was not required to do so by being familiar detainees (Leonor Cipriano and his brother John Manuel). But I was a bit confused.
He hoped the acquittal of Leonor
A.P. - How he saw the trial?
L.S. - I was so nervous, I hardly know how I saw it. I knew that there would think of me.
AP-hoped the conviction or the acquittal of Eleanor?
L.S. - Were you expecting to come out freely.
AP - When he heard the sentence to sentence her to more than 20 years in prison, how you felt?
L.S. - It seems that time has stopped. I dunno ... for nothing. Now I feel better because, with appeals by the lawyer, the sentence has already fallen. He may get even more anything.
AP - What you said Eleanor after being convicted?
L.S. - Just said to trust her because he did not kill the daughter.
A.P. - with all this, what you learned in life?
L.S. - There are days when you can not leave. If the day that Jane has disappeared, I had not left the house, nothing would have happened. But today, I am a calmer person. Just leave home to work and go to the cafe. Or else go to Portimao to Catraia see my children. Nothing more.
A.P. - They ask the mother?
L.S. - Ruben is asking a lot but still have not told you. When they come together for me, I will tell them the truth about where is the mother. But Ruben has pulled me once the conversation to say that the mother is imprisoned. I told him no, that the mother was just a walk around and do not know when. When Leonor was arrested, I told my children that their mother was grounded because he behaved badly.
A.P. - and ask for Joanne?
L.S - Lara, no. It was too little, when his sister disappeared. As for Ruben, he inquired of principle. Not now.
AP - How was the relationship between Jane and her siblings?
L.S. - It was good. Joana's who took care of them while the mother was doing other things.
If Joan was mistreated so my and my Ruben Lara also were
AP - The PJ says he found Jane's underwear with traces of sperm, thus concluding that she was sexually abused, and being a victim of abuse as indeed appears from another process. How is that possible?
L.S. - It said the traces of sperm were mine. Then said it was Carlos Pinto, who lived in the same house. They came to say it was my brother Bob. Later, they told me to be comfortable, that had nothing to do with me. I did not know what had happened.
AP - But as could be no traces of sperm in girl's clothes?
L.S. - It also makes me confused. I do not know. I think it is poorly told by the Judiciary.
AP - admitted that there had been carelessness on the part of Eleanor to clean the house and doing the laundry of the children?
L.S. - The house was always clean. The clothes were always in the basket for washing. When one day appeared at the house's technical Commission for the Protection of Minors, as a complaint that said the girl was abused, even these women filed the lawsuit because they saw all right. Were 11.00 and my wife was making lunch for the kids. And there never dreamed it would house. Just not too pleased that the kids they were eating crackers. And asked that they did not often claiming that the crackers are bad. I wonder who was the person Figueira, who was telling the Commission for the Protection of Minors that Joan was mistreated. It's one that I think this lady was that he went to England at the time of the trial of John and Eleanor suspect her at all. My wife has never been a bad mother for the kids. There was much speculation in the midst of all this. If Jane was abused, then mine and my Ruben Lara also were. With six months, my Ruben had some legs that were thicker than my arms.
AP-still thinks back to live with Eleanor one day prove that, after all, she is innocent?
L.S. - Now, I do not know. But I believe she is innocent.
With AP-40, that way you are trying to rebuild his life?
L.S. - I have eight months ago a new companion. We'll see how long.
-
Fantastic, Carana,
I recognise it, so I must have it somewhere, but it will probably be translated as well. Well done 8@??)(
-
Fantastic, Carana,
I recognise it, so I must have it somewhere, but it will probably be translated as well. Well done 8@??)(
I'd rather have found the original as my proficiency in Googlish is lousy.
I can spot several issues where it comes out back-to-front, which isn't helpful.
-
I'd rather have found the original as my proficiency in Googlish is lousy.
I can spot several issues where it comes out back-to-front, which isn't helpful.
Maybe my link will work. Did this one not have a link?
-
Maybe my link will work. Did this one not have a link?
Yes, but it was a google translate of the original - which is no longer online. I think I can remember some of the points that came out garbled.
I might even experiment with re-google-translating it back into Portuguese... but there's no guarantee that it won't get even more mangled in the process.
-
AP - And Leonor also consumed drugs?
L.S. - Not even drank the more drugging. Just sometimes drank a licorzinho.
The meaning of what he said in the original was that she didn't even drink, let alone take drugs. She occasionally had a "licorzinho" (a small alcoholic drink of some kind).
-
Yes, but it was a google translate of the original - which is no longer online. I think I can remember some of the points that came out garbled.
I might even experiment with re-google-translating it back into Portuguese... but there's no guarantee that it won't get even more mangled in the process.
This translation is very poor and doesn't look like it has been tidied up, so it possibly will translate back. It's worth a try. Google is better now than it was a few years ago.
-
This translation is very poor and doesn't look like it has been tidied up, so it possibly will translate back. It's worth a try. Google is better now than it was a few years ago.
No... not really.
Fart is crying. And asked: "Where is my daughter? Where is my daughter? "Just crying.
Fart está chorando. E perguntou: "Onde está a minha filha Onde está a minha filha?" Just chorando.
Doesn't really help, does it? &%+((£
From the context, "Fart" is somehow Leonor... not very intuitive.
-
AP - And Leonor also consumed drugs?
L.S. - Not even drank the more drugging. Just sometimes drank a licorzinho.
The meaning of what he said in the original was that she didn't even drink, let alone take drugs. She occasionally had a "licorzinho" (a small alcoholic drink of some kind).
Yes, it is pretty garbled,
I think it should read..........................
AP - And Leonor also consumed alcohol?
L.S. - Never even drank the strong alcohol, Just sometimes drank a licorzinho.[/i]
-
AP - How was the relationship with Eleanor Jane?
L.S. - Good. Joana could tell him everything she answered nothing. Expected me to come home to tell me I give a 'castigozinho' the girl, who was put you in the room to do the homework. And just get out of there when I was done.
I remember what this was.
AP (journalist's name presumably) asked him what Leonor's relationship with Joana was like.
LS replied that it was good. Joana could be sometimes be cheeky (answer back) but Leonor didn't react, preferring to ask him to deal with whatever small punishment was deemed appropriate, which was generally to make her go to her room to do her homework and not come out until she'd finished. From memory, it was instead of letting her watch TV.
The bottom line (from that little extract and elsewhere) was that Leonor had never mistreated her and had apparently never even slapped her.
-
I don't know how this should read though.
A.P-ever suspicious of his wife? Never surprised all of that situation?
L.S. - Dona Leonor? Never! Relied much on it. I continue to trust, even though sometimes look like a little dick.
@)(++(*
Think it should be
A.P-ever suspicious of your wife? Never surprised at all, of that situation?
L.S. - Dona Leonor? Never! I Relied much on her. I continue to trust, even though sometimes I look a little foolish.
-
I don't know how this should read though.
A.P-ever suspicious of his wife? Never surprised all of that situation?
L.S. - Dona Leonor? Never! Relied much on it. I continue to trust, even though sometimes look like a little dick.
@)(++(*
Think it should be
A.P-ever suspicious of your wife? Never surprised at all, of that situation?
L.S. - Dona Leonor? Never! I Relied much on her. I continue to trust, even though sometimes I look a little foolish.
LOL There's no point trying to clean up the gibberish without the original at hand.
I'd waded through the original several times, so I remember what some points were.
-
Found the translated one. Part1
I suspect that a lady who lived in Figueira is involved in the disappearance of Joana
If Joan - 12:09:06
Leandro Silva, stepfather of Joana Cipriano, who disappeared on 12/09/2004 the village of Figueira (Portimão) while returning home after going shopping for the mother continues to believe that the child, then eight years old, was abducted or sold. Killed by own mother and an uncle, as has been proven by the court in Portimão, is not
The first hypothesis, Leandro takes first at the interview to 'Algarve press' its suspicion about the possible involvement of a friend of Joan, who ended up moving to England. In relation to any such sale, admits that "Drugtaker" Uncle Joao "is capable of anything." Complains of the conduct of the Judicial Police and believes that "this story is badly told from the beginning."
Beja Prison, where he is serving a sentence reduced recently by the Supreme Court for 16 years after having been declared, along with his brother Joao Manuel, guilty of murder and hiding the corpse of her daughter (who has not yet appeared) by the court consisting of first instance judges, Leonor Cipriano continues to claim her innocence.
Pinheiro da Cruz of the prison, close to Sines, says that the uncle of Joana says girl was sold by her own mother and the money is held by the stepfather, who both deny the family. PJ, in turn, remains convinced that the minor was eaten by pdoubts and contradictions, the only certainty is that, two years later, no one knows the whereabouts of Joana or that she may still remain.
Algarve Press - Today, after exactly two years since the disappearance of his stepdaughter, Joana Cipriano, from the village of Figueira, near Portimão, where the family lived, what they think, in fact, happened?
Leandro Silva - I still think she has been kidnapped. In the latter case,(eaten by pigs) it has not happened, and she was sold only to people who treated her well. Still is not. Do not believe it.
AP - Why believe in selling?
LS - I do not know ... But as the mother of Joao (Joana uncle) says that derived drugs and stuff he is capable of it ...
AP - Suspected then that João Cipriano had sold his niece?
LS - For he believe everything and anything. But at the outset, I still thought mainly that Joana was kidnapped.
AP - His family has insisted that someone from Figueira could be involved in this situation? You also believe that?
LS - I believe. A lady eventually went to England even before the trial, ie, a year after Joan disappeared. My whole family thinks she may be involved in this case.
AP - In the Prison of Beja, where almost two years, she has now been, did Leonor Cipriano, Joana's mother, ever mention that the girl could have been taken by someone linked to Figueira?
LS - The Leonor also thinks the same as us. And this lady spoke mainly because having thought go away shortly after the disappearance of Joana. She was a close friend of Joana, gave her clothing and toys. Everything.
AP - But just why do you sall think she might be behind the disappearance of the child?
LS - No, it's not just that. It's the way she left the country, I mean: large business that had to go in Figueira to work for others?
AP - But this lady you are alluding to, was a witness (in a recorded statement for future memory) in the Joana case trial in Court of Portimão, which went on to say that the only thing we did not do and should have done was taken the girl to the family ...
LS - Look, this is also one more thing... Well ... Give so you think ... This lady once took Joana to Hospital in Portimao, because of a cough. And at the same time, I think, at least according to reports, that came after the disappearance of Joana, She asked for medical tests to find out if she had been raped.
Do not know which was her idea. But she even asked my parents (in this case my stepfather) if he could take the girl to the doctor or anything. The mother of Joana was at home.
AP - came asking for explanations for what happened to this lady?
LS - No, no. At the time we did not take it Seriously .
AP-When did you begin to suspect her?
LS - When she was gone from Figueira.
AP - Did you ever talk to the Judiciary Police on this, your assumption?
LS - No.
AP - But by the time that Joana disappeared, this lady was in the Algarve and was even the most committed people to work with the family to try to locate the girl, and the PJ in investigations. So how could she be involved in this case?
LS - I do not know, do not know. But I suspect it, I suspect. She is the only one who, until today, I think it may have done something. It was she who always walked with the girl. When she saw her, would soon talk to her. Until death, and while there is no indication to the contrary, I will continue to think the same way.
Leonor could neither kill a chicken or know how, Let alone, cut her daughter up and give it to the pigs
AP - But the Judiciary continues to think that Joana was killed in the house where she lived, in the village of Figueira, and the body quartered and eaten by pigs in a piggery, hence eventually come out and be slaughtered. What do you think of this release?
LS - I think not. That the pigs I did it to them (PJ) where they were when they sent me to talk to the Judicial with Leonor in Faro. If I had not spoken to them in pigs, there was nobody. As I said in animals, said as soon as Joana had been given to the pigs. Leonor nor would it expedient. Neither kill a chicken or know how too, much more cut her daughter up and give it to the Pigs.
AP - Where did this information on pigs come from?
LS - It was bullshit. The Leonor told me in the place, although I do not know if because she took a hit in Judicial or being instructed to do so. I do not know. I know that she told me, this road where there was a house and old cars. I told her that this road was because I knew there once. And I know there are some old cars and the only old house located in the area. And there were pigs, which she confirmed to me at the time. Of course I mean the Judicial what they asked me to ask her. That's where from this question was born pigs. And the PJ went with me to the place according to the particulars of Leonor. Now, I do not know if even pigs eat human flesh or not. What I do know is that the judiciary was investigating and it seems that they found nothing. Surely if anything, there would have been hair or other things there.
AP - But what did Leonor tell you specifically about pigs?
LS - She told me that Joao (the brother) had taken the girl piggyback and she (Leonor) was beside him. Then she told me that Joana was left there inside this old house where these two old cars were, after which they came to the house where we lived to fetch a blanket and went back there and they left the girl. This story about the disappearance of Joana is very poorly told from the beginning.
AP - What time did Leonor get home that night?
LS - I was always at home and did not see her leave. And at least in that house I went to bed always late. Sat watching movies until very late.
AP - But, after all, who would have thrown the body of Joana to the pigs?
LS - As she told me in the Judiciary, the body had been initially hidden behind the wall in the rubble that was next to the house where we lived in Figueira. And had stayed there on Sunday, the day the girl disappeared, only Monday and Tuesday is when they were taking the body. At night. If true, some would always smell. But apparently, no one felt there was any smell or noise heard at home on Sunday night. At least, that's what the landlady told me. And she, who lives on the first floor of the same building, says she hears everything, even when I went to the bathroom. That day, she heard nothing ...
AP - I could not understand how also nobody believes you, as Joana's stepfather, could they not learn something ...
LS - It's easy everybody thinks so. And you know why? Why are people not in our place. Each has their idea. And I'm not even against them, no. If I were in their place, and by chance thought the same. So do not get annoyed about it. Have not cared and not of importance.
Joana called her mother and swearing to shut up
AP - You hear many 'mouths' over the last two years?
LS - Many, many.
AP - What do you say after the disappearance of Joana?
LS - So much. So ...
AP - They called it murder?
LS - Everything! But with the help of my mother and my stepfather, put up as well. I have a family that helps me.
AP - Joao Cipriano, Joana's uncle, sent two letters from the Prison of Pinheiro da Cruz, near Sines, to a sister residing in Enxerim district of Silves, referring that the girl was sold by her own mother. And one of the letters, even states that "anyone who has the money, is the Leandro family." How do you react to this situation?
LS - I would also like to know ... But it's just talk.
AP - He knew his brother well?
LS - No. Joao went a few times to my house. But when I went, there was one day, two days. It is those people who do not talk much. Whenever he finished eating, he sat watching TV and said nothing.
AP - Over a week, before being arrested by the PJ, which he told Leonor, he continued to live in the same house with you?
LS - gorged herself up crying. And she asked: "Where is my daughter? Where is my daughter? 'Cried alone.
AP - And the uncle of Joana?
LS - If I am not mistaken, was at home until Tuesday (Joana disappeared on Sunday).
AP-ever suspected your wife? Never surprised at all at her situation?
LS - Dona Leonor? Never! Relied heavily on her. I continue to trust, although sometimes so get a little wary.
-
Part2
AP - Excuse me , what?
LS - Staying well in doubt. But trust her. She would never harm her daughter.
AP - How was the relationship of Leonor with Joana?
LS - Good. Joana could tell you everything that she answered nothing. Hoped I got home to tell me to take have a word with the girl, who was stuck in her to do schoolwork. And just get out of there, when she was all done.
AP - Never slapped your stepdaughter?
LS-Nothing! Never! That way? Neither the mother, the more so.
AP - And ever saw Eleanor hitting the Joana?
LS-I never saw. The one who yelled at Joana was I.
AP - Why?
LS - Joana was rebelling. And came to the point of calling her own mother a profanity.
AP - Such as?
LS - She called her a bitch.
AP - But why?
LS - I do not know. I Got angry and irritated after she called her mother a bitch. I do not know if those were words that came from her mouth to go out or something. Then the mother told me when I came home from work.
AP - As Leonor reacted to hearing the insult her own daughter?
LS - Only said she would tell me. But never hit her. Ruben (son, now four years old) came to have a spanking two or three times. For Joana, never. At least while she was with me.
AP - His son Ruben, who has a sister Lara (3 years) in Scull, support institution for children located in Portimao, have told a social worker that "men took Joana" ...
LS - Oh, yeah ... he also told me the same thing and I think my mother also. But it was a chancing to hear about it. Sometimes, someone said this or something and he had said the same.
AP-But what specifically did he say, your son?
LS - Men caught Joana, threw her in a car and were too rough. Was what he said when he was already in Catraia in Portimão.
Why do you say that was chancing any conversation he overheard.
Uncle of Joana was drunk or was instructed to confess death and dismemberment of his niece in the video appears in court
AP - You've seen the video shown during the trial of your wife and her brother in the Court of Portimão, where Joao Cipriano assumed to have killed Joana and dismembered the body, hiding it in a freezer. What do you think of this confession?
LS - It was he who was wearing the glasses ...
AP - From what we know, you accompanied him on the day he made that reconstitution and lived in the house where Joan ...
LS - followed. The judiciary was with me because I was at the to Scrap Yard and had the key of the house. We went to the Penina waiting for more police personnel. Then I went to the bar to a position of stools with two agents PJ drinking a beer. However, the car came with Joao and other Judiciary. They told me to go to this car, but not let us talk. Joao was there with a beer in hand and was still clinging to another. Although not familiar with it, I think he was drunk when he walked into the house to do what we saw in court. And I had not even entered. Only opened the door. Then they walked and were closed inside. I was always outside. In the video that went in court, we see that Joao was not normal at the time. Or was instructed to do that after finding yourself intoxicated. Something he had.
AP - But what seemed to have assumed is that he cut the body in various parts of Joana?
LS - Knives that had at home were all cooking, but small. And with barely an inch of blade. Never had any big knives. What is it that Joao would have at home to do what he told Judicial? Only if it was a neighbour to borrow an axe or a saw. On the other hand, a freezer where he says he put the body is small. Just try to put two chickens in the freezer, you'll see that does not fit. Then, it has three drawers. To get a body inside, had to take the drawers, all out. Leonor never settles to cut a chicken let alone cut the body of Joana.
AP - And John would have the courage and ability to do so?
LS - Tuesday, has. As his mother says, for drug he is able to do everything. But also assures me that has done nothing. Joao loved his niece.
AP - He would be capable of killing or selling?
LS - By drug, would be able to sell. Sometimes there could be debt or something. That leonor, after a day or two, when she sent Joana shopping, Joao followed behind her. And if anyone knows what happened to the girl, he will.
AP - ever demanded explanations from her brother?
LS - No.
AP - Why?
LS - Because he said he was (? At home) when he came out looking for me. But at the time, Leonor became suspicious with her brother.
Escape the young Austrian revives hope that Joan is alive
AP - spoke in drugs. What type of drug that Joao Cipriano consumed?
LS - Everything. But for the vein I think not. Now, hashish and dust ...
AP - Leonor And also consumed drugs?
LS - not even drank the more drugging. Only sometimes drinking a licorzinho.
AP - What did you think when you saw the news about the young Austrian woman Natascha Kampusch kidnapper who fled after being kidnapped in the basement of a house for more than eight years?
LS - I immediately thought the same would happen to Joana. Do not say ever, ever, ever. But even if it was five or six years. If it is the same situation in which she was one Austrian girl, will shift to free herself. Joana is very smart. Even for age (eight years) she had when she disappeared, was too smart. While there is life there is hope. And there's nothing to do in this life that do we not come to know. Then we would see ...
AP - What would you do then?
LS - I do not know ... That's what's harder to say. But no-one to pay for what I spent. I wish it to appear one day. We can then talk ...
AP - What do you think of the first action taken by the GNR and then the PJ to find Joana?
LS - I think men Judiciary Portimão were not aggressive. Knew and tried to talk with us at least learn something.
Meanwhile, the Faro on the first day they came for us, was soon to hit us when we got there. First it was beating then is that the questions were. I think the PJ of Portimão had continued to research, maybe had drawn something from somewhere.
AP - And the GNR?
LS - I had a deadline to make the service as we were told. Do not know who failed. Before, they said that only after 24 hours after the disappearance of Joana could they begin to search it as the law stipulates. I find this annoying because it is a child. If it were an adult with 18, 20, would be different. I could have gone to the girlfriend or boyfriend. Now with a child of eight still have to wait 24 hours to be officially reported missing and go looking, that's weird.
They should have closed the house to get one there
AP. - Also surprised that the police had not gone to the house where once lived the Joana and sealed space?
LS - Look, this is another! When we were there, instead of not letting me sleep there, had sealed the house. They should have closed the house to anyone in there. I would have taken only some clothes and ready. The house had to be sealed. I've heard many people say the same. Then say that the evidence was destroyed.
AP - How has your life been these past two years?
LS - Now is better. Life can not stop. But in the beginning, when Joana disappeared, and it was difficult not only for me.
AP - What was the most difficult moment?
LS - must have been the punishment we took in Judicial, where they called me everything and anything. And I was always beaten when taken there. But with the punches and tooke it. Outside, the worst was when we pass on the street and hear people insult us. Each one says what you want and we can not answer. Even avoided going to certain cafes. But today, as I enter in all. Have not heard anything. Now, everyone greets me and speaks well both in Figueira, as Mexilhoeira-Grande, where I live. But even when I go to Portimao or elsewhere, do not feel any problem.
AP - Walking with head high?
LS - Always walked.
AP - And how are your two sons?
LS - Well You are in Catraia in Portimão will be two years. But soon will come out. In principle, Ruben willPortimão.
AP - How is your relationship with them?
LS - It's good. I'll take them to Catraia every Sunday. My Ruben has asked me to return home permanently. Likes me to be where he is, but the family is different, of course.
AP - They have gone to see the mother of the Beja jail?
LS - My mother is on it to see if they will.
AP - And how long have you not visited Leonor?
LS - I do not know. Maybe a year now.
AP - Why?
LS - Because of whoever stole my papers. And no we can not get there. I have to find new roles. It's just that the reason and she knows.
AP - What do you write in the letters that you send Leonor from the family?
LS - she need money or anything she lacks. And ask when will we see hert. Says she feels really miss the children and that God is great, she is innocent. And I still believe in her innocence. There are times when I'm so in doubt, but I am convinced that Leonor is innocent.
AP - In what extreme still doubt her?
LS - I do not know, sometimes when I'm there and stop to think if she is innocent or not. And this is why? Because she once wanted to be involved in this case, saying the Judiciary I helped her hide the body of Joan and Carlos Pinto had taken to the scrap yard where he worked. And sometimes I'm thinking, but why did she do this to us? On the other hand, I also think that things were put by them into her head.
AP - You came to be accused in the case ...
LS - It's true. I shuffled a bit, knowing that I have nothing to do with it. But the case was filed. I just had to go to court as a witness at trial, in which also only talked because I did speak. Was not required to do so by being familiar detainees (Leonor Cipriano and her brother John Manuel). But I was a bit flustered.
Hoped the acquittal of Leonor
AP - As seen trial?
LS - I was so nervous that I do not know how I saw it. There I knew what they were thinking of me.
AP-hoped the conviction or acquittal of Leonor?
LS - I was waiting for her to come out free.
AP - When he heard the sentence condemning her more than 20 years in prison, how did you feel?
LS - It seems that time has stopped. I dunno ... I wonder. Now, I feel better because with the resources provided by the attorney, the penalty already less. He may still get something else.
AP - What did she say … Leonor after being convicted?
LS - Only said to trust her because she did not kill her daughter.
AP - With all this, what you have learned in life?
LS - There are days when I can not leave the house. If the day that Joana had disappeared, If had not left home, nothing would have happened. But today, I am a calmer person. Only leave the house to work and go to the cafe. Or, to go to Portimao Catraia to see my children. Nothing more.
AP - They ask for their mother?
LS - The Ruben is asking a lot, but not yet told him. When they get older, I will tell them the truth about where their mother is. But Ruben has pulled me over once and told me that his mother is in prison. I told him no, that the mother was just taking a tour around and do not know where. When Leonor was arrested, I told my children that their mother was grounded because she behaves badly.
AP - They ask for Joana?
LS - Lara, no. She was very little, when her sister disappeared. As for Ruben, ask but not now.
AP - What was the relationship between Joana and brothers?
LS - It was good. Joana is who took care of them while the mother was doing other things.
If Joan was mistreated so my Ruben and Lara also were
AP - The MP says he met Joan panties with traces of sperm, concluding why she was sexually abused as well as being a victim of abuse as the rest consists of another process. How is that possible?
LS - I said that traces of sperm were mine. Then said it was Carlos Pinto, who lived in the same house. Came to say that it was my brother Bob. Later, they told me to be at ease, that had nothing to do with me. I did not know what had happened.
AP - But how could there be traces of semen on the clothes of the girl?
LS - also makes me confused. I do not know. I think this is very badly told by the Judiciary.
AP - admitted that there had been carelessness on the part of Leonor while cleaning the house and doing the laundry of the children?
LS - The house was always clean. The outfit was always in the basket for washing. When one day appeared there in house techniques of the Committee on the Protection of Minors due to a complaint that said the girl was abused, even these ladies have filed the case because they saw all right. Were 11.00 and my wife was making lunch for the kids. And never dreamed they would come to the house. Not only loved the kids were eating crackers. And asked that they did not often arguing that the wafers are bad. I wonder who was the person Figueira, who was telling the Committee for the Protection of Minors that Joan was mistreated. It's one that I think it was this lady who eventually went to England by the time of trial of Leonor and João suspect it as well all. My wife was never bad mother for the kids. There was much speculation in the middle of all this. If Joana were mistreated, then my and my Ruben Lara also were. Six months, my Ruben had some legs that were thicker than my arms.
AP Still think back to live with Leonor one day prove that, after all, she's innocent?
LS - Now do not already know. But I believe she is innocent.
With AP-40, that way you are trying to redo your life?
LS - eight months ago I have a new companion. Let's see how long.
-
Thanks Anna.
They both seem to be automatic translations. Some points should be treated with caution as the meaning can get garbled.
In the one you found:
AP - The MP says he met Joan panties with traces of sperm, concluding why she was sexually abused as well as being a victim of abuse as the rest consists of another process. How is that possible?
LS - I said that traces of sperm were mine. Then said it was Carlos Pinto, who lived in the same house. Came to say that it was my brother Bob. Later, they told me to be at ease, that had nothing to do with me. I did not know what had happened.
In the one I found somewhere:
AP - The PJ says he found Jane's underwear with traces of sperm, thus concluding that she was sexually abused, and being a victim of abuse as indeed appears from another process. How is that possible?
L.S. - It said the traces of sperm were mine. Then said it was Carlos Pinto, who lived in the same house. They came to say it was my brother Bob. Later, they told me to be comfortable, that had nothing to do with me. I did not know what had happened.
According to my recollection of the original, the original was that he was told that the semen was his.... then he was told that it belonged to the other guy who lived in the house, then that it belonged to a third person.
It wasn't that he had told anyone that it was his, but that someone (the police or some other judicial entity) had told him that.
I've noticed before that pronouns can get mixed up and the passive gets changed to the active, which changes the meaning.
-
Thanks Anna.
They both seem to be automatic translations. Some points should be treated with caution as the meaning can get garbled.
In the one you found:
AP - The MP says he met Joan panties with traces of sperm, concluding why she was sexually abused as well as being a victim of abuse as the rest consists of another process. How is that possible?
LS - I said that traces of sperm were mine. Then said it was Carlos Pinto, who lived in the same house. Came to say that it was my brother Bob. Later, they told me to be at ease, that had nothing to do with me. I did not know what had happened.
In the one I found somewhere:
AP - The PJ says he found Jane's underwear with traces of sperm, thus concluding that she was sexually abused, and being a victim of abuse as indeed appears from another process. How is that possible?
L.S. - It said the traces of sperm were mine. Then said it was Carlos Pinto, who lived in the same house. They came to say it was my brother Bob. Later, they told me to be comfortable, that had nothing to do with me. I did not know what had happened.
According to my recollection of the original, the original was that he was told that the semen was his.... then he was told that it belonged to the other guy who lived in the house, then that it belonged to a third person.
It wasn't that he had told anyone that it was his, but that someone (the police or some other judicial entity) had told him that.
I've noticed before that pronouns can get mixed up and the passive gets changed to the active, which changes the meaning.
I think the one I posted was translated by an automatic, professional translator, but I have since changed to Google. "They", "them", "me" and "he", get mixed up and very often "No" means "in" or "on". Words like "and" "the" are often missed completely.
Anyway it gives us something to compare.
I am still looking for the original, but alas, no joy yet.
-
Agreed. Automatic translation can sometimes be helpful to get the general gist, but there are pitfalls. I don't find it safe to rely on them, which is why I prefer to have the original posted as well.
I haven't had any luck in finding the original of this interview article, either. :(
-
I've found the original!
Part 1
Desconfio que uma senhora que vivia na Figueira está envolvida no desaparecimento da Joana
Caso Joana - 12.09.06
Leandro Silva, padrasto de Joana Cipriano, desaparecida no dia 12/09/2004 da aldeia da Figueira (Portimão) quando regressava a casa após ter ido às compras por indicação da mãe, continua a pensar que a criança, então com oito anos, foi raptada ou vendida. Morta pela própria progenitora e por um tio, como deu por provado o tribunal de Portimão, é que não
Quanto à primeira hipótese, Leandro assume pela primeira vez nesta entrevista ao «Algarve press» a sua suspeita sobre o possível envolvimento de uma amiga de Joana, que acabou por ir viver para Inglaterra. Já em relação a uma eventual venda, admite que “por droga” o tio de Joana “é capaz de tudo”. Queixa-se da actuação da Polícia Judiciária e considera que “esta história está muito mal contada desde o princípio”.
Do Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira, onde cumpre uma pena recentemente reduzida pelo Supremo Tribunal de Justiça para 16 anos após ter sido declarada, juntamente com o irmão João Manuel, culpada de homicídio qualificado e ocultação do cadáver da filha (que ainda não apareceu) pelo tribunal de primeira instância constituído por jurados, Leonor Cipriano continua a clamar inocência.
Da cadeia do Pinheiro da Cruz, perto de Grândola, o tio de Joana diz que menina foi vendida pela própria mãe e que o dinheiro está na posse da família do padrasto, o que ambos negam. A PJ, por seu turno, mantém a convicção de que a menor foi devorada por porcos. Neste mar de dúvidas e contradições, a única certeza é que, dois anos depois, ninguém sabe o paradeiro de Joana ou do que ainda poderá restar dela.
Algarve Press – Hoje, passados precisamente dois anos desde o desaparecimento da sua enteada, Joana Cipriano, da aldeia da Figueira, perto de Portimão, onde vivia a família, o que acha que, de facto, aconteceu?
Leandro Silva – Continuo a achar que tenha sido raptada. Em último caso, se tal não sucedeu, só se foi vendida e para pessoas que a tratassem bem. Morta é que não. Não acredito nisso.
A.P. – Porque é que acredita na venda?
L.S. – Sei lá… Mas como a mãe do João (tio de Joana) já diz que derivado à droga e coisas assim ele é capaz disso…
A.P. – Suspeita, então, que João Cipriano tivesse vendido a sobrinha?
L.S. – Em relação a ele acredito em tudo e mais alguma coisa. Mas, à partida, continuo a pensar sobretudo que a Joana foi raptada.
A.P. – A sua família tem insistido que alguém da Figueira poderia estar envolvido nessa situação? Também acredita nisso?
L.S. – Acredito. Uma senhora acabou por se ir embora para Inglaterra ainda antes do julgamento, ou seja, um ano depois de a Joana ter desaparecido. Toda a minha família pensa que ela poderá estar envolvida neste caso.
A.P. – No Estabelecimento Prisional de Odemira, onde se encontra há quase dois anos, Leonor Cipriano, a mãe de Joana, alguma vez falou que a menina poderia ter sido levada por alguém com ligações à Figueira?
L.S. – A Leonor também pensa o mesmo que a gente. E falou nessa senhora sobretudo devido ao facto de ter pensado ir-se embora pouco depois do desaparecimento da Joana. Ela era muito amiga da Joana, dava-lhe vestuário e brinquedos. Tudo.
A.P. – Mas é só por isso que pensam que ela poderia estar por detrás do desaparecimento da criança?
L.S. – Não, não é só por isso. É pela forma como ela saiu do País. Quer dizer: larga o negócio que tinha na Figueira para ir trabalhar para os outros?
A.P. – Mas essa senhora a que faz alusão, foi testemunha (num depoimento gravado para memória futura) no julgamento do caso Joana no Tribunal de Portimão, onde chegou a dizer que a única coisa que não fez e que deveria ter feito era ter tirado a miúda à família…
L.S. – Olhe, essa é também mais uma… Pois… Dá assim que pensar… Essa senhora até levou uma vez a Joana ao Hospital do Barlavento, em Portimão, por causa de uma tosse. E ao mesmo tempo, acho que, pelo menos segundo vim a tomar conhecimento após o desaparecimento da Joana, que aproveitou para pedir exames médicos para saber se ela tinha sido violada. Não sei qual era a ideia dela. Mas nem sequer perguntou aos pais (no meu caso padrasto) se podia levar a miúda ao médico, nem nada. É que a mãe da Joana estava em casa.
A.P. – Chegou a pedir explicações a essa senhora pelo sucedido?
L.S. – Não, não. Na altura, não levámos a mal.
A.P.- Quando começou a desconfiar dela?
L.S. – Quando se foi embora da Figueira.
A.P. – Alguma vez falou à Polícia Judiciária sobre essa sua suposição?
L.S. – Não.
A.P. – Mas na altura em que a Joana desapareceu, essa senhora estava no Algarve e até foi das pessoas mais empenhadas em colaborar com a família, para tentar localizar a menina, e com a PJ nas investigações. Então, como poderia estar envolvida nesse caso?
L.S. – Não sei, não sei. Mas que desconfio dela, desconfio. É a única pessoa que, até hoje, penso que possa ter feito alguma coisa. Era ela quem andava sempre com a miúda. Onde a visse, ia logo conversar com ela. Até morrer, e enquanto não houver qualquer indicação em contrário, continuarei a pensar da mesma forma.
Nem uma galinha sabe matar quanto mais cortar a filha e dá-la aos porcos
A.P. – Mas a Judiciária continua a pensar que a Joana foi morta na casa onde vivia, na povoação da Figueira, e o corpo esquartejado e devorado por porcos numa suinicultura, donde acabaram por sair e ser abatidos. O que pensa desta versão?
L.S. – Acho que não. Essa dos porcos fui eu que disso a eles (da PJ) onde estavam quando me mandaram falar com a Leonor na Judiciária, em Faro. Se eu não lhes tivesse falado em porcos, ninguém lá ia. Como falei nos animais, disseram logo que a Joana tinha sido dada aos porcos. A Leonor nem para isso teria expediente. Nem uma galinha sabe matar quanto mais cortar a filha e dá-la aos corpos
-
Part 2
A.P. – Como surgiu essa informação sobre os suínos?
L.S. – Foi uma grande treta. A Leonor falou-me na zona, embora eu não saiba se devido ao facto de ter levado porrada na Judiciária ou por estar instruída para isso. Não sei. Sei é que ela me falou nesse caminho onde havia uma casa e carros velhos. Disse-lhe que conheço essa estrada porque passei lá uma vez. E sei que ali estão uns carros velhos e a única casa velha situada na zona. E havia uns porcos, o que ela me confirmou na altura. É claro que fui dizer à Judiciária aquilo que eles me pediram para lhe perguntar. Foi daí que nasceu essa questão dos porcos. E a PJ foi comigo ao local consoante as indicações da Leonor. Agora, não sei se realmente os porcos comem mesmo carne humana, ou não. O que sei é que a Judiciária foi lá investigar e parece que não encontrou nada. De certeza que se houvesse alguma coisa, teriam ficado ali cabelos ou outras coisas.
A.P. – Mas o que lhe disse concretamente a Leonor sobre os porcos?
L.S. – Disse-me que o João (o irmão) tinha levado a menina às cavalitas e que ela (a Leonor) ia ao lado dele. Depois, disse-me que deixaram lá a Joana dentro da tal casa velha onde estão os tais dois carros velhos, após o que vieram à casa onde vivíamos buscar um lençol e voltaram lá e taparam a menina. Esta história sobre o desaparecimento da Joana está muito mal contada desde o princípio.
A.P. – A que horas saiu a Leonor de casa nessa noite?
L.S. – Estive sempre em casa e não a vi sair. E pelo menos naquela casa eu deitava-me sempre tarde. Ficava a ver filmes até às tantas.
A.P. – Mas, afinal, quem teria lançado o corpo de Joana aos porcos?
L.S. – Como ela me disse na Judiciária, o corpo tinha ficado inicialmente escondido por detrás do muro no entulho que estava junto à casa onde vivíamos na Figueira. E tinha ficado lá no domingo, dia em que a menina desapareceu, segunda-feira e só na terça-feira é que o foram tirar. À noite. A ser verdade, sempre viria algum cheiro. Mas pelos vistos, ali ninguém sentiu cheiro algum, nem ouviu barulho em casa na noite de domingo. Pelo menos, foi o que a senhoria me disse. E ela, que mora no primeiro andar do mesmo prédio, diz que ouve tudo, até quando eu ia à casa de banho. Naquele dia, não ouviu nada…
A.P. – Como deve compreender, também ninguém acredita que o senhor, como padrasto de Joana, não saiba alguma coisa…
L.S. – É fácil toda a gente pensar assim. E sabe porquê? Porque as pessoas não estão na nossa pele. Cada um tem a sua ideia. E eu até não sou contra eles, não. Se estivesse no lugar deles, se calhando pensava igual. Por isso, não me chateio com isso. Já nem ligo importância.
Joana chamava palavrões à mãe e ela calava-se
A.P. – Ouviu muitas «bocas» ao longo destes dois anos?
L.S. - Muitas, muitas.
A.P. – O que lhe diziam após o desaparecimento de Joana?
L.S. – Tanta coisa. Tanta…
A.P. – Chamavam-lhe assassino?
L.S. - Tudo! Mas com a ajuda da minha mãe e do meu padrasto, aguentei bem. Tenho uma família que me ajuda.
A.P. – João Cipriano, tio de Joana, enviou duas cartas desde o Estabelecimento Prisional de Pinheiro da Cruz, perto de Grândola, a uma irmã residente na zona de Enxerim, em Silves, a referir que a menina foi vendida pela própria mãe. E numa das cartas, até indica que “quem tem o dinheiro é um da família do Leandro”. Como reage a esta situação?
L.S. – Gostava também de saber… Mas é só conversa.
A.P. – Conhecia bem o seu cunhado?
L.S. – Não. O João ia poucas vezes à minha casa. Mas quando ia, estava lá um dia, dois dias. É daquelas pessoas que não fala muito. Quando acabava de comer, ficava sentado a ver televisão e nada dizia.
A.P. – Ao longo de uma semana, antes de ser detida pela PJ, o que lhe dizia a Leonor, continuando a viver consigo na mesma casa?
L.S. – Fartava-se de chorar. E perguntava: «Onde está a minha filha? Onde está a minha filha?» Só chorava.
A.P. – E o tio da Joana?
L.S. – Se não estou em erro, esteve lá em casa até terça-feira (a Joana desapareceu no domingo).
A.P- Alguma vez desconfiou da sua mulher? Nunca estranhou toda a aquela situação?
L.S. – Da Leonor? Nunca! Confiava muito nela. E continuo a confiar, apesar de às vezes ficar assim um pouco coiso.
A.P. – Coiso, o quê?
L.S. – Ficar assim em dúvida. Mas confio nela. Ela nunca fazia mal à filha.
A.P. – Como era a relação de Leonor com a Joana?
L.S. – Boa. A Joana podia dizer-lhe tudo que ela nada respondia. Esperava que eu chegasse a casa para me contar para eu dar um «castigozinho» à menina, que era metê-la no quarto a fazer os deveres da escola. E só de lá saia, quando tinha tudo feito.
A.P. – Nunca deu uma bofetada à sua enteada?
L.S- Nada! Nunca! Que jeito? Nem na mãe, quanto mais nela.
A.P. – E alguma vez viu a Leonor bater na Joana?
L.S.- Nunca vi. Quem gritava com a Joana era eu.
A.P. – E porquê?
L.S. – A Joana era refilona. E chegava ao ponto de chamar palavrões à própria mãe.
A.P. – Como, por exemplo?
L.S. – Até puta lhe chamava.
A.P. – Mas porquê?
L.S. – Não sei. Zangava-se e depois irritada chamava puta à mãe. Não sei se aquilo eram palavras que lhe saíam da boca por sair, ou coisa assim. Depois, a mãe contava-me quando eu chegava do trabalho.
A.P. – Como reagia a Leonor ao ouvir a própria filha insultá-la?
L.S. – Só dizia que me ia avisar. Mas nunca lhe batia. Ao Ruben (o filho, hoje com quatro anos) chegou a dar umas palmadas duas ou três vezes. À Joana, nunca. Pelo menos, enquanto esteve comigo.
A.P. – O seu filho Ruben, que se encontra com a irmã Lara (3 anos) na Catraia, instituição de apoio a menores localizada em Portimão, terá dito a uma assistente social que “os homens levaram a Joana”…
L.S. – Ah, pois…ele também me disse a mesma coisa e acho que à minha mãe também. Mas isso calhando foi de ele ouvir falar. Às vezes, alguém que falou ou coisa assim e ele tinha dito o mesmo.
-
Part 3
A.P.- Mas o que lhe disse em concreto o seu filho?
L.S. – Os homens pegaram na Joana, deitaram-na num carro e foram com muita força. Era o que ele dizia já quando estava na Catraia, em Portimão. Por isso é que se diz que calhando foi alguma conversa que ouviu.
Tio de Joana ou estava embriagado ou foi instruído para confessar a morte e esquartejamento da sobrinha no vídeo exibido em tribunal
A.P. – Você viu o vídeo exibido durante o julgamento da sua mulher e do seu cunhado no Tribunal de Portimão, em que João Cipriano assumia ter morto a Joana e esquartejado o corpo, escondendo-o numa arca frigorífica. O que acha desta confissão?
L.S. – Acho é que ele estava era com os copos…
A.P. – Ao que se sabe, acompanhou-o no dia em que ele fez essa reconstituição na casa onde morava a Joana…
L.S. – Acompanhei. A Judiciária foi-me buscar à sucata porque eu é que tinha a chave de casa. Fomos para a Penina à espera de mais pessoal da polícia. Depois, fui para o bar de um posto de abastecimento de combustível com dois agentes da PJ beber uma cerveja. Entretanto, chegou o carro com o João e outros da Judiciária. Mandaram-me entrar para esse carro, mas proibiram-nos de conversar. O João estava lá com uma cerveja na mão e ainda estava agarrado a outra. Embora não o conheça bem, acho que ele estava alcoolizado quando andou dentro de casa a fazer aquilo que se viu no tribunal. E eu nem sequer entrei. Só abri a porta. Depois, eles é que andaram enrolados lá dentro. Eu estive sempre cá fora. No vídeo que passou no tribunal, vê-se que o João não estava normal na altura. Ou estava instruído para fazer aquilo ou encontrava-se embriagado. Alguma coisa ele tinha.
A.P. – Mas o que lhe pareceu ele ter assumido que cortou o corpo da Joana em várias partes?
L.S. – As facas que tinha em casa eram todas de cozinha, mas pequenas. E quase nem com um palmo de lâmina. Nunca tive facas grandes. O que é que o João teria lá em casa para fazer aquilo que disse à Judiciária? Só se fosse pedir emprestado a algum vizinho um machado ou um serrote. Por outro lado, a arca frigorífica onde ele diz que meteu o corpo é pequena. Só tentar meter dois frangos dentro do congelador, verá que não cabem. Depois, tem três gavetas. Para um corpo entrar no interior, tinham de tirar as gavetas, tudo para fora. A Leonor nem se ajeita a cortar um frango quanto mais cortar o corpo da Joana.
A.P. – E o João teria coragem e capacidade para tal?
L.S. – Ter, tem. Como diz a mãe dele, por droga ele é capaz de fazer tudo. Mas também nada me garante que o tenha feito. O João gostava muito da sobrinha.
A.P. – Seria mais capaz de a matar ou vender?
L.S. – Por droga, seria mais capaz de a vender. Às vezes podia haver dívidas ou coisa assim. O que a Leonor me disse, ao fim de um dia ou dois, é que mandou a Joana às compras e o João seguiu logo atrás dela. E que se alguém sabe o que aconteceu à miúda, será ele.
A.P. – Alguma vez pediu explicações ao seu cunhado?
L.S. – Não.
A.P. – Porquê?
L.S. – Porque ele disse que quando saiu foi à minha procura. Mas na altura, a Leonor ficou desconfiada com o irmão.
Fuga da jovem austríaca faz renascer esperança de que Joana está viva
A.P. – Falou em droga. Qual o tipo de droga que João Cipriano consumia?
L.S. – Tudo. Mas para a veia penso que não. Agora, haxixe e pó…
A.P. – E a Leonor também consumia estupefacientes?
L.S. – Nem sequer bebia quanto mais se drogar. Só às vezes bebia um licorzinho.
A.P. – O que pensou quando viu as notícias sobre a jovem austríaca Natascha Kampusch que fugiu do raptor após ter ficado sequestrada na cave de uma casa durante mais de oito anos?
L.S. – Pensei logo que devia acontecer o mesmo à Joana. Não digo já, já, já. Mas nem que fosse daqui a cinco ou seis anos. Se ela estiver na mesma situação em que esteve aquela rapariga austríaca, terá expediente para se libertar. A Joana é muito esperta. Mesmo para a idade (oito anos) que ela tinha quando desapareceu, já era esperta demais. Enquanto há vida há esperança. E não há nada que se faça nesta vida que não se venha a saber. Depois, a gente veria…
A.P. – O que faria nessa altura?
L.S. – Não sei… Isso é que é mais difícil de dizer. Mas alguém há-de pagar por aquilo que passei. Oxalá que ela apareça um dia. A gente depois conversa…
A.P. – O que pensa da acção desenvolvida primeiro pela GNR e depois pela PJ para tentar descobrir a Joana?
L.S. – Acho que os homens da Judiciária de Portimão não eram agressivos. Sabiam conversar connosco e tentavam, pelo menos, descobrir alguma coisa. Enquanto isso, os de Faro logo no primeiro dia que nos vieram buscar, foi logo para nos bater quando lá chegámos. Primeiro era porrada, depois é que faziam as perguntas. Acho que se a PJ de Portimão tivesse continuado com a investigação, se calhar tinham sacado alguma coisa de algum lado.
A.P. – E a GNR?
L.S. - Tinha um prazo para fazer o serviço, como nos disseram. Não sei quem falhou. Antes, disseram que só passadas 24 horas após o desaparecimento da Joana é que podiam começar a procurá-la como estipula a lei. Acho isso chato porque se trata de uma criança. Se fosse um adulto com 18, 20 anos, seria diferente. Podia ter ido ter com a namorada ou com o namorado. Agora, com uma criança de oito anos ainda ter de esperar 24 horas para ser dada oficialmente como desaparecida e ir à procura, é que é estranho.
Deviam ter fechado a casa para ninguém lá entrar
A.P . - Também estranhou o facto de a polícia não ter ido logo à casa onde vivia a Joana e selado o espaço?
L.S. – Olhe, essa é outra! Quando lá foram, em vez de não me deixarem ali dormir, tinham selado a casa. Deviam ter fechado a casa para ninguém lá entrar. Eu teria tirado apenas alguma roupa e pronto. A casa tinha de ser selada. Já ouvi muita gente a dizer o mesmo. Depois, dizem que as provas foram destruídas.
A.P. – Como tem sido a sua vida nestes dois últimos anos?
L.S. – Agora está melhor. A vida também não pode parar. Mas no princípio, quando a Joana desapareceu, foi difícil e não só para mim.
A.P. – Qual foi o momento mais difícil?
L.S. – Devem ter sido os castigos que levei na Judiciária, onde me chamaram tudo e mais alguma coisa. E fui agredido sempre que lá me levaram. Mas com as porradas aguento bem. Cá fora, o pior foi a gente passar na rua e ouvir as pessoas a insultar-nos. Cada um diz aquilo que quer e a gente não pode responder. Até evitei ir a certos cafés. Mas hoje, já entro em todos. Já não ouço nada. Agora, toda a gente me cumprimenta e fala bem tanto na Figueira, como na Mexilhoeira-Grande, onde vivo. Mas mesmo quando vou a Portimão ou outros sítios, não sinto qualquer problema.
A.P. – Anda de cabeça erguida?
L.S. – Sempre andei.
A.P. – E como estão os seus dois filhos?
L.S. - Bem. Já estão na Catraia, em Portimão, vai fazer dois anos. Mas em breve vão sair. Em princípio, o Ruben ficará com a minha mãe, que mora na Mexilhoeira-Grande. E a Lara vai ficar com a minha irmã, que reside na zona da Companheira, em Portimão.
A.P. – Como é a sua relação com eles?
L.S. – É boa. Vou buscá-los à Catraia todos os domingos. O meu Ruben já me pediu para voltar para casa definitivamente. Gosta de estar onde está, mas a família é diferente, como é natural.
A.P. – Têm ido ver a mãe à cadeia de Odemira?
L.S. – A minha mãe está a tratar disso para ver se lá vão.
A.P. – E há quanto tempo você não visita a Leonor?
L.S. – Nem sei. Se calhar, há um ano.
A.P. – Porquê?
L.S. – Porque entretanto me roubaram os documentos. E sem estes não posso lá entrar. Tenho de arranjar novos papéis. É só esse o motivo e ela sabe.
A.P. – O que escreve a Leonor nas cartas que envia à família?
L.S. – Pede dinheiro e mais alguma coisa que lhe falta. E pergunta quando é que vamos vê-la. Diz que sente muitas saudades dos filhos, que Deus é grande e ela está inocente. E eu continuo a acreditar na inocência dela. Há alturas em fico assim em dúvidas, mas estou convencido de que a Leonor está inocente.
A.P. – Em que alturas ainda duvida dela?
L.S. – Sei lá, às vezes quando estou para aí e paro para pensar se ela está inocente ou não. E isto porquê? Porque ela uma vez quis envolver-se neste caso, dizendo à Judiciária que eu a ajudei a esconder o corpo da Joana e que o Carlos Pinto o tinha levado para a sucata onde trabalhava. E às vezes fico a pensar: mas porque é que ela nos fez isso? Por outro lado, também penso que calhando foram coisas metidas por eles na cabeça dela.
A.P. – Você chegou a estar arguido no processo…
L.S. – É verdade. Fiquei um bocado embaralhado, sabendo que nada tenho a ver com o assunto. Mas o caso foi arquivado. Só tive de ir a tribunal como testemunha no julgamento, em que também só falei porque entendi falar. Não era obrigado a fazê-lo por ser familiar dos detidos (Leonor Cipriano e o seu irmão João Manuel). Mas fiquei um bocado atrapalhado.
Esperava a absolvição de Leonor
A.P. – Como viu o julgamento?
L.S. – Estava tão nervoso, que nem sei como vi aquilo. Sabia lá o que iam pensar de mim.
A.P.- Esperava a condenação ou a absolvição de Leonor?
L.S. - Estava à espera que saísse em liberdade.
A.P. – Quando ouviu a sentença a condená-la a mais de 20 anos de prisão, como se sentiu?
L.S. – Parece que o tempo parou. Sei lá… Fiquei à toa. Agora, sinto-me melhor porque, com os recursos apresentados pelo advogado, a pena já baixou. Pode ser que ele consiga ainda mais qualquer coisa.
A.P. – O que lhe disse a Leonor depois de ser condenada?
L.S. – Só dizia para confiar nela porque não matou a filha.
A.P. – Com tudo isto, o que aprendeu na vida?
L.S. – Há dias em que não se pode sair de casa. Se no dia em que Joana acabou por desaparecer, eu não tivesse saído de casa, nada teria acontecido. Mas hoje, sinto-me uma pessoa mais calma. Só saio de casa para trabalhar e ir ao café. Ou, então, para ir a Portimão à Catraia ver os meus filhos. Nada mais.
A.P. – Eles perguntam pela mãe?
L.S. – O Ruben é que pergunta muito, mas ainda não lhe contei. Quando eles vierem para junto de mim, dir-lhes-ei a verdade sobre onde está a mãe. Mas o Ruben já me puxou uma vez a conversa a dizer que a mãe está presa. Respondi-lhe que não, que a mãe apenas foi dar um passeio e não sei quando volta. Quando a Leonor foi presa, disse aos meus filhos que a mãe estava de castigo porque se portou mal.
A.P. – E perguntam pela Joana?
L.S – A Lara, não. Era muito pequenina, quando a irmã desapareceu. Quanto ao Ruben, perguntava de princípio. Agora, não.
A.P. – Como era a relação entre a Joana e os irmãos?
L.S. – Era boa. A Joana é que tomava conta deles enquanto a mãe estava fazendo outras coisas.
Se a Joana fosse maltratada então o meu Ruben e a minha Lara também o eram
A.P. – A PJ diz que encontrou cuecas da Joana com vestígios de esperma, concluindo por isso que ela era abusada sexualmente, além de ser vítima de maus-tratos como de resto consta de um outro processo. Como é que isso é possível?
L.S. – Já disseram que os vestígios de esperma eram meus. Depois, diziam que era do Carlos Pinto, que vivia na mesma casa. Chegaram a dizer que era do meu irmão Beto. Mais tarde, disseram-me para estar à vontade, que nada tinha a ver comigo. Fiquei sem saber o que se tinha passado.
A.P. – Mas como podia haver vestígios de esperma na roupa da menina?
L.S. – Também me faz confusão. Não sei. Acho que isso está muito mal contado por parte da Judiciária.
A.P. – Admite que tivesse havido falta de cuidado por parte da Leonor ao limpar a casa e ao tratar da roupa dos filhos?
L.S. – A casa estava sempre limpa. A roupinha estava sempre no cesto para lavar. Quando um dia apareceram lá em casa técnicas da Comissão de Protecção de Menores devido a uma queixa que dizia que a miúda era maltratada, mesmo essas senhoras arquivaram o processo porque viram tudo bem. Eram 11.00 horas e a minha mulher estava a fazer o almoço para os miúdos. E nem sonhava que iam lá a casa. Só não gostaram muito que os miúdos estivessem a comer bolachas. E pediram para que não o fizessem muitas vezes, alegando que as bolachas fazem mal. Gostava de saber quem foi a pessoa da Figueira, que foi contar à Comissão de Protecção de Menores que a Joana era maltratada. É mais uma que penso que foi dessa senhora que acabou por ir para Inglaterra por altura do julgamento da Leonor e do João. Desconfio dela em tudo. A minha mulher nunca foi má mãe para os miúdos. Houve muita especulação no meio de tudo isto. Se a Joana fosse maltratada, então o meu Ruben e a minha Lara também o eram. Com seis meses, o meu Ruben tinha umas pernas que eram mais grossas do que os meus braços.
A.P- Ainda pensa voltar a viver com a Leonor se um dia se provar que, afinal, ela está inocente?
L.S. – Agora, já não sei. Mas acredito que ela está inocente.
A.P- Com 40 anos, de que forma você está a tentar refazer a sua vida?
L.S. – Tenho há oito meses uma nova companheira. Vamos a ver até quando.
Dead link:
http://www.algarvepress.net/conteudo.php?menu=-1&cat=Regional&scat=Reportagem&id=136
-
Question: on which date did Leonor "confess"?
-
Question: on which date did Leonor "confess"?
Depends on what you mean Carana. Confess to her interrogators and Leandro or confess whilst before the examining magistrate?
-
Depends on what you mean Carana. Confess to her interrogators and Leandro or confess whilst before the examining magistrate?
She was initially charged and held on remand on 24 Sept.
No dia 24 de Setembro de 2004, no inquérito 330/04.2JAPTM da comarca de Portimão, foi determinada a prisão preventiva de Leonor Maria Domingos Cipriano, indiciada por crimes de ofensa á integridade física qualificada agravada pelo resultado – artigos 143o, 145o, no 1, alínea a) e 146o do Código Penal - e de ocultação de cadáver – artigo 254o, no1 do Código Penal;
(From the torture trial).
According to one article, the ruling was announced in the early hours of 25 Sept, so I'm guessing that the hearing was latish evening and she'd been rushed over to court with a bow on her.