Author Topic: Forensics  (Read 45541 times)

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Offline mrswah

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #60 on: April 28, 2017, 11:12:48 PM »
This was before there was anyone to defend. Even though Dr Delaney is much more trustworthy than any of the other expert witnesses, it is just as Lindsay Lennen told The Guardian - "Because of Tabak's confession, the evidence wasn't tested in court". That confession was very convenient for the prosecution, especially as it was so helpfully fabricated by the defence.

I wouldn't be surprised if Dr Delaney was told to wash the body to ensure that the defence pathologist couldn't find anyone's DNA on it, just as he allowed the contents of her digestive system to be removed and sent to Glasgow, so that no one else could test them.

Yes, Lindsey Lennen's comment says it all.  If someone says they did it, nobody needs to test anything! They don't need to question the guilty plea either. This approach might work some of the time, but it is hardly satisfactory-----IMO, of course.

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #61 on: April 29, 2017, 08:05:15 AM »
One question I have been trying to find the answer too is:

How long does it take to properly thaw a body?? 

I'm sure you can't do it quickly, I've have tried to find this out without much success... I did find a book someone was writing and they had , had advice about the length of time from a professional, but I could hardly use that info...

She was found on the 25th Dec and the results of the post Mortem were on the 28th Dec... Is 3 days long enough for a body that has been outside for 8 days frozen solid to thaw suficiantly as to do a post mortem?? (no even 3 full days )..

I wonder... We have Andrew Mott and we have Martin Faithfull  Officers who's qualifications as forensic Officers are not fore coming.. both testifying that they had to stop Joanna Yeates body from thawing... ?

Is that the reason they both make this statement... she could have been thawing... but wouldn't that lend to her being there for far less time....

Dr Delaney doesn't get to see her till 6:00pm on the 25th December 2010.... 


Quote
12:14PM GMT 28 Dec 2010

Detective Chief Inspector Phil Jones of Avon and Somerset Police revealed the results of a post mortem examination as he declared that her death was now officially being treated as a murder investigation.
He said Joanna, who disappeared on Friday, December 17, had died as a result of compression of the neck.
.

This is the earliest report I have found so far in regards to the conclusion of strangulation...

6:00pm 25th December 2010 to:..  12:07  28th December 2010 = 66 hours.. (if this is PM)

Is 66 hours long enough for a body to thaw out thoroughly?? The whole body would have to be at the same temperature and thawed out so that the post mortem could even start..

I'm changing Time Frame to 54 hours max after DCI Phil Jones said it was the night before that the Autopsy was completed..


And for someone who has been outside for so long it doesn't seem long enough for the body to thaw.... I believe it would have to be kept at a steady temperature so tissue doesn't start to deteriorate at a different rate to the rest ....

Would the core of the body be fully defrosted ?? I don't know .... And another problem which I forget when visulizing  an autopsy is that the body was in the foetal position... So would that make it take even longer to thaw???

Foetal Position:
One Arm across her body:
One Arm around her head :

Within this 66 hour time frame... not only does he have to thaw the body.. but he needs to un-pose it... remove the clothing, wash the body and then start the autopsy...

I am no medical expert but I don't believe it's long enough... so that would lean to her not being as frozen as they say... which in turn means that she was NOT on Longwood Lane for 8 days , which I never believed she was ...


Does anyone know how many days it would take to thaw out a body in the foetal position that is frozen solid being outside for 8 day in terrible temperatures??

And at what temperature do you start the thawing process so that it defrosts at an even temerature??



( I've added attachment incase the article changes or goes walkabout.. It shows the date and time ..)


Quote
BYMIRROR.CO.UK
12:07, 28 DEC 2010UPDATED09:47, 27 JAN 2012


This doesn't say AM or PM... I suppose it's PM.... But??

Edit:.... Does the post Mortem examination time include toxicology tests??

These were sent to Scotland... So how can you have the FULL results of the post Mortem if it doesn't include the Toxicology Results...

They would have had to be sent to Scotland ASAP.... Did they get the Results immediately???


Double Edit:.... On The 28th December at 12:14pm DCI Phil Jones says that the pathologist completed his examination last night...

Begs questions... we have now to take 12 hours off... so we only have 54 hours at the very most.... we do not know what time he completed his examination of a FROZEN BODY...

I'll pop a link in to my next post on early reports about the case:

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=8056.msg401461#msg401461

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/joanna-yeates-was-strangled-post-mortem-271813

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/8228069/Murder-investigation-launched-as-post-mortem-reveals-Joanna-Yeates-was-strangled.html

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #62 on: April 29, 2017, 09:28:47 AM »
...
Edit:.... Does the post Mortem examination time include toxicology tests??

These were sent to Scotland... So how can you have the FULL results of the post Mortem if it doesn't include the Toxicology Results...

They would have had to be sent to Scotland ASAP.... Did they get the Results immediately???
...
No toxicology results have ever been reported. The prosecutor stated a figure for Joanna's blood alcohol content, but this cannot be trusted, since no one testified to it.

The gastroarchaeologist who analysed the contents of Joanna's stomach, and who testified briefly, Dr Jennifer Miller, told the court that she was from Northlight Heritage, which is in Glasgow. We cannot know for certain whether Dr Miller carried out the analysis in her own lab, though it seems most likely. We don't know whether she also analysed the contents of the the intestines as well, but this seems likely. We don't know whether she received only the contents, or the organs themselves. We don't know when she performed her analysis, but it seems likely that it was carried out between 17th and 19th January 2011. Dr Delaney told the court that he had observed a subsequent examination of Joanna's body by a certain Dr White on 17th January 2011. He gave no reason for this, but it seems likely that Dr. White's task was to remove what Dr Miller needed. Two days later, the news media carried brief unattributed reports that Joanna had not eaten the pizza. The next day, Vincent Tabak was arrested.

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #63 on: April 29, 2017, 10:11:41 AM »
No toxicology results have ever been reported. The prosecutor stated a figure for Joanna's blood alcohol content, but this cannot be trusted, since no one testified to it.

The gastroarchaeologist who analysed the contents of Joanna's stomach, and who testified briefly, Dr Jennifer Miller, told the court that she was from Northlight Heritage, which is in Glasgow. We cannot know for certain whether Dr Miller carried out the analysis in her own lab, though it seems most likely. We don't know whether she also analysed the contents of the the intestines as well, but this seems likely. We don't know whether she received only the contents, or the organs themselves. We don't know when she performed her analysis, but it seems likely that it was carried out between 17th and 19th January 2011. Dr Delaney told the court that he had observed a subsequent examination of Joanna's body by a certain Dr White on 17th January 2011. He gave no reason for this, but it seems likely that Dr. White's task was to remove what Dr Miller needed. Two days later, the news media carried brief unattributed reports that Joanna had not eaten the pizza. The next day, Vincent Tabak was arrested.

so.... How can you have a conclusion of a Post Mortem without these ????  You would need to bring in all possible factors to have a conclusion.... So that you can rule out that she had been DRUGGED for instance...

That no other toxic substances were attributed to her death....

17th to the 19th January is far too late for results... how could the post mortem be complete?? ...(IMO)

How do you know that was probable it happened then???

I don't understand how he came to his conclusion so quickly....


Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #64 on: May 01, 2017, 07:09:32 PM »
so.... How can you have a conclusion of a Post Mortem without these ????  You would need to bring in all possible factors to have a conclusion.... So that you can rule out that she had been DRUGGED for instance...

That no other toxic substances were attributed to her death....

17th to the 19th January is far too late for results... how could the post mortem be complete?? ...(IMO)

How do you know that was probable it happened then???

I don't understand how he came to his conclusion so quickly....
I don't understand your question. Dr Delaney said he "glimpsed" the body on Christmas day, and then made two post-mortem examinations at the mortuary before DCI Phil Jones met the press. Much later, a mysterious Dr White "examined" the body in the presence of Dr Delaney. The timings of this examination, the press release stating that Joanna had not eaten the pizza, and the arrest of Vincent Tabak, have every appearance of being co-ordinated, and of being intended to prevent anyone else from examining the stomach contents.

I agree with you that the lack of any toxicology evidence is suspicious, but absence of evidence is not as useful as evidence of absence. It is particularly annoying that the press has been totally silent about the very existence of the inquest, instead of reporting that it had been opened and adjourned. That suggests to me that the press have been compromised.

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #65 on: May 02, 2017, 05:47:06 AM »
I don't understand your question. Dr Delaney said he "glimpsed" the body on Christmas day, and then made two post-mortem examinations at the mortuary before DCI Phil Jones met the press. Much later, a mysterious Dr White "examined" the body in the presence of Dr Delaney. The timings of this examination, the press release stating that Joanna had not eaten the pizza, and the arrest of Vincent Tabak, have every appearance of being co-ordinated, and of being intended to prevent anyone else from examining the stomach contents.

I agree with you that the lack of any toxicology evidence is suspicious, but absence of evidence is not as useful as evidence of absence. It is particularly annoying that the press has been totally silent about the very existence of the inquest, instead of reporting that it had been opened and adjourned. That suggests to me that the press have been compromised.

Even more confusing... How can you have 2 post mortem examinations in such a short space of time??? Shouldn't it just be the one ???

Who is Dr White???? and why were they not in court??/ I don't remember them making an appearance ...

It's a shame we can't have dates and timings of these examnation... toxicology included!!

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #66 on: May 02, 2017, 07:54:55 AM »
Even more confusing... How can you have 2 post mortem examinations in such a short space of time??? Shouldn't it just be the one ???

Who is Dr White???? and why were they not in court??/ I don't remember them making an appearance ...

It's a shame we can't have dates and timings of these examnation... toxicology included!!
Please don't shoot the messenger! I am not accountable for all the procedural failures in this case.

Dr Delaney carried out his first post-mortem examination proper at 6 p.m. on Christmas day 2010. Joanna's body was still at least partly frozen.

Her parents saw her during the morning of boxing day.

Dr Delaney continued with his post-mortem examination during the afternoon of boxing day.

The following day, DCI Phil Jones held a press conference. He told them that Joanna had been strangled, but nothing about evidence of rape. That came out more than a week later.

I have only just noticed that Dr Delaney carried out a further post-mortem examination on 31st December 2010. That was also the day of the Schiphol interview.

During cross-examination by defence counsel, the court was told how long food takes to digest. It is not clear whether it was Mr Clegg or Dr Delaney who did the telling. In any event, the pathologist did tell the court that he was not able to give a timescale as to when Joanna had died.

I have posted all I know about the involvement of Dr White (which was made public only at the trial). I can't be held accountable for the absence of any explanation for this. However, its timing suggests that it was part of the strategy of disinformation leading up to and including VT's arrest. Was Dr J...... M..... from G........ the "crying girl"? Two day's after Dr White's involvement, a brief unattributed statement was made in at least two news media that Joanna had not eaten the pizza.

This may, strictly speaking, be true, especially if the CCTV from Tesco Express was captured on a different day entirely - perhaps even AFTER Joanna was supposed to have been killed by Vincent Tabak. She may have put it in the freezer, and it may be the pizza her boyfriend ate after his return from Sheffield. He may have mistaken it for an Asda pizza.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2017, 12:20:11 PM by John »

Offline mrswah

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #67 on: May 02, 2017, 09:50:36 AM »
Good post, Leonora------except that I don't believe Greg ate the Tesco pizza, otherwise the packaging would have been found in the bins at No 44. Even if the police didn't get around to looking for it immediately, Jo's parents would have done.

I have never been able to find any reference to the mysterious Dr White.


Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #68 on: May 02, 2017, 10:13:49 AM »
Good post, Leonora------except that I don't believe Greg ate the Tesco pizza, otherwise the packaging would have been found in the bins at No 44. Even if the police didn't get around to looking for it immediately, Jo's parents would have done.

I have never been able to find any reference to the mysterious Dr White.
http://live-news.sky.com/Event/Live_Updates_Vincent_Tabak_Trial2

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #69 on: May 02, 2017, 12:48:16 PM »
Here are the tweets that include the reference to Dr White:

#Vincenttabak has his head bowed and buried in his hands as Dr Delaney describes the many injuries found.

3:43 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
Dr Delaney is describing the deep bruising to #Joannayeates' neck muscles

3:52 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
Dr Delaney did further examination on 31 Dec and observed another on Jan 17 by Dr White #Vincenttabak #Joannayeates

3:56 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
10 minute break #Vincenttabak #Joannayeates

4:12 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
« Last Edit: May 03, 2017, 12:07:47 PM by John »

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Re: Forensics
« Reply #70 on: May 02, 2017, 05:28:05 PM »
Here are the tweets that include the reference to Dr White:

#Vincenttabak has his head bowed and buried in his hands as Dr Delaney describes the many injuries found.

3:43 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
Dr Delaney is describing the deep bruising to #Joannayeates' neck muscles

3:52 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
Dr Delaney did further examination on 31 Dec and observed another on Jan 17 by Dr White #Vincenttabak #Joannayeates

3:56 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky
10 minute break #Vincenttabak #Joannayeates

4:12 PM - 14 Oct 2011Twitter
juliareidsky
@juliareidsky


If Dr White was for the Defence... How could that be possible????

Dr Vincent Tabak wasn't arrested until the 20th January 2011.....

So who is Dr White ?????

Offline Leonora

Re: Forensics
« Reply #71 on: May 02, 2017, 07:47:22 PM »

If Dr White was for the Defence... How could that be possible????

Dr Vincent Tabak wasn't arrested until the 20th January 2011.....

So who is Dr White ?????
Only you have suggested that Dr White was for the Defence, and you have also immediately scotched that theory, by pointing out that several days were to elapse before there was a defendant with a lawyer who needed to appoint an independent pathologist.

In any case, we don't know if Dr White is actually an accredited pathologist. The timing leads me to believe that his role was as Dr Jennifer Miller's go-between. In that capacity, he could vouch to her for the integrity of the evidence taken the cadaver which he delivered to her in Glasgow, and Dr Delaney could vouch for Dr White. The prosecution had this evidence sent out of the country to a different jurisdiction, most probably to make it harder for Vincent Tabak's lawyers to requisition it for their own independent gastroarchaeologist to examine.

It's enough to make the mind boggle and the stomach to turn over.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2017, 12:06:37 PM by John »

Offline John

Re: Forensics
« Reply #72 on: May 02, 2017, 07:55:35 PM »
Only you have suggested that Dr White was for the Defence, and you have also immediately scotched that theory, by pointing out that several days were to elapse before there was a defendant with a lawyer who needed to appoint an independent pathologist.

In any case, we don't know if Dr White is actually an accredited pathologist. The timing leads me to believe that his role was as Dr Jennifer Miller's go-between. In that capacity, he could vouch to her for the integrity of the evidence taken the cadaver which he delivered to her in Glasgow, and Dr Delaney could vouch for Dr White. The prosecution had this evidence sent out of the country to a different jurisdiction, most probably to make it harder for Vincent Tabak's lawyers to requisition it for their own independent gastroarchaeologist to examine.

It's enough to make the mind boggle and the stomach to turn over.

Yes, dirty tricks are a phenomena of many cases, I myself have just discovered some in my own case just today.  That said however, let's not jump to any conclusion in this case until further facts are discovered.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline [...]

Re: Forensics
« Reply #73 on: May 02, 2017, 08:29:54 PM »
Only you have suggested that Dr White was for the Defence, and you have also immediately scotched that theory, by pointing out that several days were to elapse before there was a defendant with a lawyer who needed to appoint an independent pathologist.

In any case, we don't know if Dr White is actually an accredited pathologist. The timing leads me to believe that his role was as Dr Jennifer Miller's go-between. In that capacity, he could vouch to her for the integrity of the evidence taken the cadaver which he delivered to her in Glasgow, and Dr Delaney could vouch for Dr White. The prosecution had this evidence sent out of the country to a different jurisdiction, most probably to make it harder for Vincent Tabak's lawyers to requisition it for their own independent gastroarchaeologist to examine.

It's enough to make the mind boggle and the stomach to turn over.


Do we know Dr Whites name??

Offline [...]

Re: Forensics
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2017, 10:13:33 AM »
I thought I check wiki out... anyway here's a quote regarding Rigor Mortis:


Quote
Application in forensic pathology

The degree of rigor mortis may be used in forensic pathology, to determine the approximate time of death. A dead body holds its position as rigor mortis sets in. If the body is moved after death, but before rigor mortis begins, forensic techniques such as livor mortis can be applied. If the position in which a body is found does not match the location where it is found (for example, if it is flat on its back with one arm sticking straight up), that could mean someone moved it.

Several factors also affect the progression of rigor mortis, and investigators take these into account when estimating the time of death. One such factor is the ambient temperature. When conditions are warm, the onset and pace of rigor mortis are sped up by providing a conducive environment for the metabolic processes that cause decay. Low temperatures, however, slow them down. Therefore, for a person who dies outside in frozen conditions rigor mortis may last several days more than normal, so investigators may have to abandon it as a tool for determining time of death.[8][9]

So if she's dumped within a short space of time ... Rigor Mortis Hasn't taken place immediatley then:

Quote
Therefore, for a person who dies outside in frozen conditions rigor mortis may last several days more than normal, so investigators may have to abandon it as a tool for determining time of death.

Why was it even POSSIBLE to complete a POST MORTUM EXAMINATION within 56 hours???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigor_mortis

EDIT:...........

Quote
Temperature is an important factor in determining the time of onset of rigor. In normal circumstances and at room temperature rigor is complete in about three to six hours. If the temperature is higher the onset is more rapid — perhaps no more than an hour in tropical temperatures. Conversely, the onset of rigor is delayed at low temperatures. In cases of drowning in cold water, for example, rigor may not appear until the body has been removed from the water, even after several days of immersion. The onset of rigor is hastened if there has been intense physical activity shortly before death. Thus, in forensic medical practice, the presence of rigor is a poor determinant of the time of death. Once established, the duration of rigor ranges from 18 to 36 hours.


So did Rigor Mortis Occur after Joanna Yeates was defrosted??

If Dr Delaney did the autopsy within 56 Hours he had to wait for her to thaw, then possibly would then have to contend with Rigor Mortis..

So... Does that mean that Joanna Yeates had been kept elsewhere before she was dumped on Longwood Lane for Rigor Mortis to have taken it's natural course???

Which then enable Dr Delaney to complete his autopsy in such a short space of time???


http://www.encyclopedia.com/medicine/diseases-and-conditions/pathology/rigor-mortis