Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.

[John]

Possibly. Or perhaps she heard a child crying from a different apartment (from memory, one of the group's kids was sick that night). There may have been other kids in the block crying at some point that night as well. I wish they'd done a reconstruction with her to determine where she thought the sound was actually coming from.

This comes up time and time again as some members attempt to divert the crying report away from Madeleine.

Mrs Fenn lived immediately above the apartment in which the McCanns were located, she lived alone and was not senile.  She was quite capable of telling where the crying was coming from, she even observed that the crying stopped immediately the moment the McCanns opened the patio door.  There are such things as coincidences but in this instance I fear it is a coincidence too far!

[sadie]

I don't think newspaper stories can be seen as 'evidence'. Most of what they reported was untrue gossip imo. There's nothing in the official files from this 'Scottish woman';

A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing. Express 18th August.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm

Which police did she tell therefore, the British? How did the Express find her, were the British police 'leaking'?

It's probably as inaccurate as this statement about the man Carol Tranmer saw;

She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns' holiday friends. Express 18th August.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm

It sounds good, but it's not true.

So from
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
we have two mentions of burglaries in block 5 in the preceding three weeks.

In both cases the use of a key was mentioned because no obvious damage to either apartment.

I had seen mentions of keys probably used before, but had no idea where to find the mentions, so Thank you to Brietta  and Gunit  .   I feel sure other burglaries in OC were mentioned too and keys, but have no idea where to find them.

I wonder if the Scottish womans apartment was overlooked by this balcony in block 6 too?

Were the Moyes burgled?  Anyone know?  They were immediately above Mrs fenn and in view of that balcony

[sadie]

I don't think newspaper stories can be seen as 'evidence'. Most of what they reported was untrue gossip imo. There's nothing in the official files from this 'Scottish woman';

A second holidaymaker told police an intruder used a key to enter her Ocean Club apartment just three weeks before Madeleine went missing. Express 18th August.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm

Which police did she tell therefore, the British? How did the Express find her, were the British police 'leaking'?

It's probably as inaccurate as this statement about the man Carol Tranmer saw;

She told the officer the man matched the description of a suspect seen by Jane Tanner one of the McCanns' holiday friends. Express 18th August.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm

It sounds good, but it's not true.

It sounds good, but it's not true.

How do you know that?  Were you there, or is it in YOUR OPINION ?

[misty]

I think you need to ask Kate McCann, not me.

I used an analysis  by Paulo Reis, based on PJ data, for my information about Kate's movements on Tues night & the lack of activity on the others' mobiles which suggested they were switched off & probably left at the apartments.

http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/12/more-on-the-deleted-call-records-where-was-kate-mccann/

[G-Unit]

It sounds good, but it's not true.

How do you know that?  Were you there, or is it in YOUR OPINION ?

I do my best to base my posts on facts. I know because I read Carol Tranmer's statement. The man she saw looked nothing like the man described by Jane Tanner. .

he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

[G-Unit]

I used an analysis  by Paulo Reis, based on PJ data, for my information about Kate's movements on Tues night & the lack of activity on the others' mobiles which suggested they were switched off & probably left at the apartments.

http://truthformadeleine.com/2008/12/more-on-the-deleted-call-records-where-was-kate-mccann/

I know you did.

[Robittybob1]

So from
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm
we have two mentions of burglaries in block 5 in the preceding three weeks.

In both cases the use of a key was mentioned because no obvious damage to either apartment.

I had seen mentions of keys probably used before, but had no idea where to find the mentions, so Thank you to Brietta  and Gunit  .   I feel sure other burglaries in OC were mentioned too and keys, but have no idea where to find them.

I wonder if the Scottish womans apartment was overlooked by this balcony in block 6 too?

Were the Moyes burgled?  Anyone know?  They were immediately above Mrs fenn and in view of that balcony

That height could be a bit far to jump off.  They tended to tackle ground floor apartments.  Easier access and escape.

[sadie]

Sadie had formulated much of her theory before we ever heard about Crecheman being traced by SY; I think part of the pity in that episode is that more effort hadn't been put into doing that by investigators closer to the time of Madeleine's disappearance.
I have never been totally convinced by DCI Redwood's eureka moment on that one.

But I don't think crecheman's appearance changes much if anything as far as Sadie's theory of what might have happened is concerned.

I agree that the mystery of the window was never about in or egress it was about something else entirely and that may very well have been to cover up the possession of the key.
No other such 'clue' was left in any of the Ocean Club burglaries and with the exception of Mrs Fenn's disturbing experience, nothing to indicate the MO used.

Sadie has suggested that the window had been opened either as an escape route or to pass Madeleine through.  As well as expressing the opinion in the instance of 5A there might have been a requirement to deflect attention from something else concerning the crime ... use of a key for the door?

I doubt if even whoever raised the shutter and opened the window in whichever order that was done could ever have anticipated the way in which that action was destined to influence the direction the investigation would take.

The newspaper headlines the day after Madeleine vanished about discrepancies in statements and badly told stories about staged crime scenes must have combined manna from heaven with a get out of goal free card.  In my opinion had they planned it that way, it couldn't have worked out better for them.

Just a couple of points, Brie.

1)  I have never thought it likely that Madeleine was passed thru the window because there were no fibres or marks anywhere on the frame and to get her thru' without them, with such a narow window, she would have had to be passed thru lengthwise.  A very clumsy and difficult maneouvre imo. 

I think the lifter came in thru the front door using a key and exited the same way  carrying Madeleine.  I think the front door was then pulled to using the key, which had never left the door during the few seconds that had elapsed (?drugging) and lifting Madeleine.  Madeleine was then passed over to Tannerman imo.
 
The lifter then hot footed it away, possibly to the ? staff quarters in Rua D'Escola, whilst Tannerman melted into the shadows awaiting the getaway car.  When it didn't come more or less instantly he was anxious so with Madeleine in his arms he walked to Jane Tanner corner to see what was happening, or to meet it.....

He never intended to walk the streets carrying Madeliene, a stolen child, but was forced to by the non-appearance of the getaway car


2)  THe other thing, Brie, is that, there were at least two burglaries in block 5 in the 3 weeks before Madeleine vanished.  In both cases it was mentioned that a key might have been used because there was no evidence of a break in.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/Nigel/id331.htm

What I truly cannot understand is why Amaral insisted that no-one could get in the front door, when surely he must have known about Mrs Fenns burglary (using a key?)  and another one, the Scottish Lady, in block 5 where it was also suggested that a key must have been used, because no forced entry. 

In this case we also know that they were burgled whilst they were at dinner.  Madeleine vanished whilst the family were at dinner.


Anyone know what time of day Mrs Fenn  was burgled?

[barrier]

What I truly cannot understand is why Amaral insisted that no-one could get in the front door, when surely he must have known about Mrs Fenns burglary (using a key?)  and another one, the Scottish Lady, in block 5 where it was also suggested that a key must have been used, because no forced entry. 

In this case we also know that they were burgled whilst they were at dinner.  Madeleine vanished whilst the family were at dinner.


Anyone know what time of day Mrs Fenn  was burgled?

There is no mention of time or date in her statement.

[sadie]

Because it was libellous.

You claimed one of mine was recently, when it wasn't

[sadie]

I'd agree that many of the press reports at the time need to be taken with quite a bit of salt.

Sometimes, however, there can be a grain of garbled truth.

 She says that as far as she can remember, during the years that she has worked at the resort, she knows of some thefts from inside the apartments and most recently on 16th April 2007 there was a theft from an apartment in Block 5 L, from where a plasma display screen, credit cards and a mobile phone belonging to the respective guests were taken.

As far as she knows, as she prepared the papers for the insurance company, the theft took place at the end of the day and according to the guests the event happened when they had left for dinner after completing check in and having left their suitcases in the apartment.

She says that she does not remember having been told that doors or windows had been forced, the guests having said that they had just left the door on the latch, however she is not certain.

When asked, she says that she was never told of the existence of any suspects or where those responsible for the theft had been identified.


http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARIA-GONCALVES.htm

Thanks Carana

Unless this is a third burglary, this sounds as though it is the Scottish Lady mentioned before in a doubtful manner.  So it is verified by Maria Goncalves

[sadie]

I do my best to base my posts on facts. I know because I read Carol Tranmer's statement. The man she saw looked nothing like the man described by Jane Tanner. .

he was blonde, with a lot of hair, very short, not like mine but a little more, humm... but not like a footballer, do you know what I mean' A style close to shaven. Very short, blonde, the head was very sculptured. The shape of the head was very sculptured, more oval shaped.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/CAROL_TRANMER.htm

Good response.  Thanks Gunit

[sadie]

That height could be a bit far to jump off.  They tended to tackle ground floor apartments.  Easier access and escape.

I agree, but he jumped from Mrs Fenns apartment, which was first floor at the front and second floor at the back.  Actually I sem to remember that the window he went thru opened on to the landing that Mrs fenn  entered tghe apartment from .... BUT I am not at all sure that I am remembering that correctly.


Otherwise, as i dont think the front was an option with that walkway wall in the way and the rear was rather high with the Mccanns balcony railings in the way (would he have had to go over Mrs Fenns balcony too?) I think that he would have had to jump straight into the street.

When I was a kid, they only had to say "dare you" and I did it.  I was always the first to jump off single storey rooves etc.  THe boys (older) had to follow suit, or lose face! ... and once I seem to remember escaping a lecherous looking man by jumping off the flat roof. to his 2 storey house = equivalent to jumping from the Moyes apartment

My friend and i shouldn't have been there, but we had been up once before via the outside metal steps attached to the wall .... they were verty tempting ....and loved the adventure and the view over fields in all directions.  Jeez, now I couldn't jump down the kerb !


If I could do it in an emergency, then a I bet a youngish man could have done it too.  Does anyone know if the Moyes were burgled?

[Robittybob1]

I agree, but he jumped from Mrs Fenns apartment, which was first floor at the front and second floor at the back.  Actually I sem to remember that the window he went thru opened on to the landing that Mrs fenn  entered tghe apartment from .... BUT I am not at all sure that I am remembering that correctly.


Otherwise, as i dont think the front was an option with that walkway wall in the way and the rear was rather high with the Mccanns balcony railings in the way (would he have had to go over Mrs Fenns balcony too?) I think that he would have had to jump straight into the street.

When I was a kid, they only had to say "dare you" and I did it.  I was always the first to jump off single storey rooves etc.  THe boys (older) had to follow suit, or lose face! ... and once I seem to remember escaping a lecherous looking man by jumping off the flat roof. to his 2 storey house = equivalent to jumping from the Moyes apartment

My friend and i shouldn't have been there, but we had been up once before via the outside metal steps attached to the wall .... they were verty tempting ....and loved the adventure and the view over fields in all directions.  Jeez, now I couldn't jump down the kerb !


If I could do it in an emergency, then a I bet a youngish man could have done it too.  Does anyone know if the Moyes were burgled?

As a kid we used to leap from the hay barn roof and that was about 4 meters high.  I didn't like it but we did it.  Sounds like you were better at heights than me.  It was good to read that post Sadie.

[John]

I agree, but he jumped from Mrs Fenns apartment, which was first floor at the front and second floor at the back.  Actually I seem to remember that the window he went thru opened on to the landing that Mrs fenn  entered tghe apartment from .... BUT I am not at all sure that I am remembering that correctly.


Otherwise, as i dont think the front was an option with that walkway wall in the way and the rear was rather high with the Mccanns balcony railings in the way (would he have had to go over Mrs Fenns balcony too?) I think that he would have had to jump straight into the street.

Actually it isnt that high if one were to climb over the railing and drop down.

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@37.0888493,-8.7309898,3a,37.5y,143.82h,96.22t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sqayNA_jzaeH82WsDA7KYyA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656