Kate McCann: I believe kidnapper drugged my twins night Madeleine was taken.

[The General]

I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo. 

It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side.  For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible.  For outsiders it was locked.

However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door.  It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for  those outside.



To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key


So who provided the key ?   Someone from O.C ?

What key? Why? The back door was open.
And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock?
Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.

[Holly Goodhead]

I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo. 

It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side.  For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible.  For outsiders it was locked.

However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door.  It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for  those outside.



To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key


So who provided the key ?   Someone from O.C ?

That's clarified the front door then, thanks.  So although many knew the children were home 'home alone' they would not necessarily know (other than T7) that the patio door was unlocked.  Therefore any would be abductor may have entered via the window and then out the front door with MM.  If someone entered the bedroom via the window then he/she would land on the bed and surely someone would have noticed some sort of indentation from feet or a body or whatever?  Also unlikely the bed was empty probably had children's bits and pieces on eg toys, clothes etc which would be disturbed?  I don't recall reading anything about this?

[Holly Goodhead]

What key? Why? The back door was open.
And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock?
Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.

So what's the score with the front door?  This is the door car park side? 

I'm beginning to think GM was somewhat of risk taker, prepared to take shortcuts and maybe a wee bit arrogant.  Did he even leave the windows/shutters open so he could nip round the front and either listen or poke his head through the window as opposed to going through the gate, child gate, patio doors and curtains?

I was stunned when I read the following article by Jez Wilkin's wife, Bridget O'Donnell.  It seems GM was happy to let all and sundry know about the "childcare arrangements" and was fond of holding court in the tapas bar with his voice booming out across the area.  JW and BO were sitting on their balcony and could hear laughter from the T9 and a loud Glaswegian accent!  I know what she means I have a Glaswegian male friend who I meet regularly for coffee and snacks along with his partner in, would you believe it, the local Waitrose cafe!  There's a crowd of us who meet in there regularly and almost everyone comments on how loud the Glaswegian is.  Imo he is actually a nice guy but I know his loud voice grates on many.  The point is GM was not some quiet guy happy to take a back seat he liked to take centre stage and was happy discussing the "childcare arrangements" with anyone who cared to listen.  He effectively let everyone know he was in the tapas bar and the children 'home alone'.   

[Holly Goodhead]

Ooops forgot to add the link:

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/dec/14/ukcrime.madeleinemccann

[The General]

So what's the score with the front door?  This is the door car park side? 

I'm beginning to think GM was somewhat of risk taker, prepared to take shortcuts and maybe a wee bit arrogant.  Did he even leave the windows/shutters open so he could nip round the front and either listen or poke his head through the window as opposed to going through the gate, child gate, patio doors and curtains?

I was stunned when I read the following article by Jez Wilkin's wife, Bridget O'Donnell.  It seems GM was happy to let all and sundry know about the "childcare arrangements" and was fond of holding court in the tapas bar with his voice booming out across the area.  JW and BO were sitting on their balcony and could hear laughter from the T9 and a loud Glaswegian accent!  I know what she means I have a Glaswegian male friend who I meet regularly for coffee and snacks along with his partner in, would you believe it, the local Waitrose cafe!  There's a crowd of us who meet in there regularly and almost everyone comments on how loud the Glaswegian is.  Imo he is actually a nice guy but I know his loud voice grates on many.  The point is GM was not some quiet guy happy to take a back seat he liked to take centre stage and was happy discussing the "childcare arrangements" with anyone who cared to listen.  He effectively let everyone know he was in the tapas bar and the children 'home alone'.   

The patio door was left open as it couldn't be locked from the outside - to save time walking round.
Which door did Kate use, the patio door, but they only left it unlocked on this night? Is that correct?
May 4th statement - we used the front door
May 10th statement - we used the patio door, it was unlocked. Front door key conspicuously placed on the table.

[Holly Goodhead]

The patio door was left open as it couldn't be locked from the outside - to save time walking round.
Which door did Kate use, the patio door, but they only left it unlocked on this night? Is that correct?
May 4th statement - we used the front door
May 10th statement - we used the patio door, it was unlocked. Front door key conspicuously placed on the table.

But it seems to me that opening the gate, walking up the steps, opening the child gate, opening the patio doors, pulling the curtains over and walking through the apartment would take longer than simply walking round the front and opening the front door, looking in the bedroom, which was just to the right and then out again.  The only downside to this is that the opening and closing the front door so close to the children's bedroom may have disturbed them.  I just get the feeling we are not hearing the full facts re this checking "childcare arrangement" and therein lies the answer imo. 

If GM did not physically check the children at circa 9pm then MM may well have disappeared from the apartment, by whatever means, from anytime between 8.30pm and 10pm.  Albis then might not be so strong!

[The General]

But it seems to me that opening the gate, walking up the steps, opening the child gate, opening the patio doors, pulling the curtains over and walking through the apartment would take longer than simply walking round the front and opening the front door, looking in the bedroom, which was just to the right and then out again.  The only downside to this is that the opening and closing the front door so close to the children's bedroom may have disturbed them.  I just get the feeling we are not hearing the full facts re this checking "childcare arrangement" and therein lies the answer imo. 

If GM did not physically check the children at circa 9pm then MM may well have disappeared from the apartment, by whatever means, from anytime between 8.30pm and 10pm.  Albis then might not be so strong!

Gerry maintains that, with no little revisionism, they entered using the patio door so 'as not to disturb them'. They were walking from the Tapas Bar remember, so they would walk past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park at the front. Matthew Oldfield did his check at 21.30 and went in through the patio door, as he was told it was open. He didn't go all the way in though, as he could 'see the twins in their cots' from the middle of the apartment.

[Robittybob1]

I think that answer to a newcomer, such as Holly is misleading, Angelo. 

It is only half the story, cos the door automatically locked against those out side.  For anyone trying to open the front door from outside it was impossible.  For outsiders it was locked.

However, as you say Gerry did not double lock the front door.  It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for  those outside.



To all intents and purposes, the door was locked and an intruder would not be able to enter that way, without a key


So who provided the key ?   Someone from O.C ?

I totally disagree with  you on this sentence "It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for  those outside." 
I have shown the forum the door wouldn't slam shut leaving a person outside without a key.

[Robittybob1]

What key? Why? The back door was open.
And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock?
Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.

Same key locks and double locks the door.  It was a matter of rotating the key twice as far to double lock it.

[The General]

I totally disagree with  you on this sentence "It was like the British Yale locks in that when you slammed the door to, the lock automatically activated and prevented access for  those outside." 
I have shown the forum the door wouldn't slam shut leaving a person outside without a key.

Is right, la.
So the key is required to physically 'lock' the top lock?

[Robittybob1]

What key? Why? The back door was open.
And which key? It would take a special kind of idiot not to go armed with both keys, because how would they know that Gerry would only pull the door to every time and not decide to double lock?
Your theory, despite 'interest' from Scotland Yard, may be founded on on site research, but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off.

You can pick on the things someone says but not the person.  So saying "but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off" about Sadie is not allowed.  It is an ad hominem argument.   Do you understand that?

[Holly Goodhead]

Gerry maintains that, with no little revisionism, they entered using the patio door so 'as not to disturb them'. They were walking from the Tapas Bar remember, so they would walk past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park at the front. Matthew Oldfield did his check at 21.30 and went in through the patio door, as he was told it was open. He didn't go all the way in though, as he could 'see the twins in their cots' from the middle of the apartment.

I don't understand what you mean by walking past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park?  If they didn't enter the gate off the road they would simply take a few more steps further up the road which was uphill and turn left into the car park and effectively be facing the front door? 

So I can understand the thinking about not using the front door door which opening and closing may have disturbed the children but if GM simply listened at the window this would nullify the reason for not using the front door?  He may not have done this at all or on all occasions but on his 9pm ish check he was in some hurry to get back to the table for his food and he was also delayed by his conversation with JW.  I'm thinking he may well have met JW before checking the twins and then taken a shortcut on his checking by simply listening at the window.  The fact he might have been in a slightly different location might account for the fact JT saw him but he didn't see her.  Others might then have realised this was the case and then sort of effectively covered for him.

All concerned seemed reluctant to take part in a reconstruction which to my mind seems odd.   

[The General]

You can pick on the things someone says but not the person.  So saying "but your grasp of the mind of the criminal is way off" about Sadie is not allowed.  It is an ad hominem argument.   Do you understand that?

Roger that.

[The General]

I don't understand what you mean by walking past the patio door to walk up and around to the car park?  If they didn't enter the gate off the road they would simply take a few more steps further up the road which was uphill and turn left into the car park and effectively be facing the front door? 

So I can understand the thinking about not using the front door door which opening and closing may have disturbed the children but if GM simply listened at the window this would nullify the reason for not using the front door?  He may not have done this at all or on all occasions but on his 9pm ish check he was in some hurry to get back to the table for his food and he was also delayed by his conversation with JW.  I'm thinking he may well have met JW before checking the twins and then taken a shortcut on his checking by simply listening at the window.  The fact he might have been in a slightly different location might account for the fact JT saw him but he didn't see her.  Others might then have realised this was the case and then sort of effectively covered for him.

All concerned seemed reluctant to take part in a reconstruction which to my mind seems odd.

Somebody timed that detour, it's about 50 seconds or so, but I'm sure a virile, tennis player could vault the wall and do it quicker.
There's some sense in the 'do not disturb' thing, to the point where I actually think Gerry went for a wazz in the bushes - I would - he was bursting apparently.
If the accounts are to be believed, then he told Matthew Oldfield (this opens a whole other echelon of this case, as there's a branch of sceptics who think MM died earlier in the week, so that would mean Matthew Oldfield was aware of this, as he would potentially find 2 instead of 3 wee ans) to go through the patio doors to check, for the 'don't disturb' reason - OK. But then he states the following night, the 4th, that he entered through the front door.

[Robittybob1]

Is right, la.
So the key is required to physically 'lock' the top lock?

Are you looking at the photo of the lock.  From the outside the key had to be used to lock it and to double lock it.

From memory the single lock was below the double lock.  There are specific terms for the components to a lock and the words are not on the tip of my tongue sorry.
One of the terms is bolt.  That bit that moves to  jam the door is a bolt.