Author Topic: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos  (Read 144951 times)

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Offline Myster

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #45 on: September 27, 2012, 07:48:59 PM »
From the Court of Appeal documents.

279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said

"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."

284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:

"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?

Answer: "Yes".

Question: Which window?

Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window". 



That was a slip up... big time!

If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.

Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.

JB must have known where that was.

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline John

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #46 on: September 27, 2012, 08:07:56 PM »
From the Court of Appeal documents.

279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said

"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."

284. On the 12 September, 2 days later he was asked:

"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?

Answer: "Yes".

Question: Which window?

Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window". 



That was a slip up... big time!

If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.

Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.

JB must have known where that was.

He could have got the key from Barbara to get in but he didn't want her to know where he was going.  She might have deemed it necessary to inform the police.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline sika

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #47 on: September 27, 2012, 08:08:08 PM »
From the Court of Appeal documents.

279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said

"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."

284. On the 12 SeHptember, 2 days later he was asked:

"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?

Answer: "Yes".

Questioon: Which window?

Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window". 



That was a slip up... big time!

If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.

Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.

JB must have known where that was.
If the Police were to find evidence that someone had entered or left via the window, Bamber would be able to point to this incident, to explain it.  Once he realised that he was suspected, he wasted no time in trying to cover his tracks.

Offline John

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #48 on: September 27, 2012, 08:14:01 PM »
I find it strange that he didn't have a key to the farmhouse as farmers sons usually do?  Unless of course he did but as the farmhouse was barred from the inside after dark it wouldn't have made any difference on the morning of the murders.

After the murders though Barbara would have locked it from the outside and he could have used his key to get in then.  So why did he admit to going in through the window after the murders unless that was indeed just a story to cover his ass for what happened earlier.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Myster

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2012, 09:26:05 PM »
White House Farm (revised plan)

"Old timers" on the forum will probably know the layout of WHF like the back of their hand, but for newbies this revised plan may prove helpful.

It's based on the following paragraph, which I think was lifted off the last forum or the blue forum (I can't remember which):-

The front of the house is denoted Red, and the side with the kitchen is denoted White. Opposite Red and White are Green and Black respectively.
On entry via the external door on the White side, there was a door to the kitchen on the right (Red) and a door (not bolted) to the room with the gun cupboard to the left (Green). Straight ahead, there was apparently visible a third external door (bolted) on Black side. The nearby staircase provides access to the upstairs office and a storeroom. The police couldn't go via that storeroom to the rest of the house, as the connecting door was secured on Red side. The main staircase (to the bedrooms) can be accessed from the front door (on Red side). The kitchen has a second door to a corridor that leads to the main staircase and front door. The kitchen also has doors to a room (on Black side) behind the kitchen (the pantry) and to a third staircase, which also provides access to the main first floor.

The straight flight of the office staircase (S3) must lie parallel to the external wall (east) as it cuts across the small high-level window (8) which is just visible from outside in photo 2 (to the right of the telegraph pole, about a third of the way up).

The dimensions of the den, rear hall, upper office and store, or the handing of the doors may no be wholly accurate, but the general location is I think correct.

The laundry as drawn on Jeremy Bamber's sketch is more problematic, as to whether it was integral with the den or separated from it by a wall. There must be a sink on the west wall here, as a waste pipe is visible in photos of that (WHITE) side.

The bolted door (5) is the one shown in photo 3.

Any comments good or bad welcome, (even if you think it's totally wrong!)



« Last Edit: November 05, 2012, 06:07:46 PM by Myster »
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Joanne

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2012, 09:29:26 PM »
Thank's for posting that  8((()*/

Offline abs

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2012, 09:56:06 PM »
Thanks from me too, Myster - never saw those before. Makes it a lot easier to "understand" the rather complicated layout of the WHF.

Offline John

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #52 on: October 06, 2012, 12:16:11 AM »
Thanks for posting a scaled drawing of the floor layout Myster, it is a huge improvement on what we had previously.  8((()*/

At last I can now see where the gun cupboard is exactly and where the stairs are accessed from.  Great work!  8@??)(

That 'bolted' blue door (5) and shown in picture No 3, I wonder how often that particular door was used if ever?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Dillon

  • Guest
Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #53 on: October 06, 2012, 08:52:53 AM »
From the Court of Appeal documents.

279. In evidence the appellant stated that he had returned to the farm the night after his release or the night after that – i.e. on the 14 or 15 September. In evidence he said

"After my arrest at Chelmsford I went to London, came back and had not got my key. I needed car documents kept in the office for a holiday and I got in the loo window."

284. On the 12 SeHptember, 2 days later he was asked:

"Question: Have you ever got in a window by putting something in between the window frames, like a knife, to move the catch so you could slide the window open?

Answer: "Yes".

Questioon: Which window?

Answer: Downstairs toilet and lounge window". 



That was a slip up... big time!

If he wanted everyone to believe he was innocent, why not say he'd never got in through the windows at all.

Apparently there was a spare kitchen door key in the coal-shed, which either Jean Bouttell or Barbara Wilson used.

JB must have known where that was.
If the Police were to find evidence that someone had entered or left via the window, Bamber would be able to point to this incident, to explain it.  Once he realised that he was suspected, he wasted no time in trying to cover his tracks.


Jeremy was not all that bright and had struggled educationally compared to his peers . Cunning, ruthless and plausible when it suited his objectives in life but lacking in the capacity to think things through . This, IMO, lead to his downfall despite the complete horlicks of an investigation conducted by Essex Police. He failed to work out that a .22 is not a quick effective killing weapon. He could have got away with the crime if he had not given the Police the contrived tale of the telephone call to him from Nevill on the night of the murders. He could not stop himself being indiscreet talking to his girlfriend, Julie. His extravagant behaviour after the murders was bound to make people suspicious of him, including his plundering of valuable contents of WHF and even poor Sheila's flat before probate had been granted. No wonder that relatives were concerned and tried to protect cherished family heirlooms.  The business of getting into the house via this window when he could have perfectly easily got in via normal means is characteristic  and is another example of a lack of clear thinking. His arrogant behaviour in Court was not consistent with a young man wrongly accused of an awful crime. All pieces in a jigsaw pointing to his guilt .   

Offline Angelo222

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #54 on: October 06, 2012, 10:57:04 AM »
Jeremy was not all that bright and had struggled educationally compared to his peers . Cunning, ruthless and plausible when it suited his objectives in life but lacking in the capacity to think things through . This, IMO, lead to his downfall despite the complete horlicks of an investigation conducted by Essex Police. He failed to work out that a .22 is not a quick effective killing weapon. He could have got away with the crime if he had not given the Police the contrived tale of the telephone call to him from Nevill on the night of the murders. He could not stop himself being indiscreet talking to his girlfriend, Julie. His extravagant behaviour after the murders was bound to make people suspicious of him, including his plundering of valuable contents of WHF and even poor Sheila's flat before probate had been granted. No wonder that relatives were concerned and tried to protect cherished family heirlooms.  The business of getting into the house via this window when he could have perfectly easily got in via normal means is characteristic  and is another example of a lack of clear thinking. His arrogant behaviour in Court was not consistent with a young man wrongly accused of an awful crime. All pieces in a jigsaw pointing to his guilt .

You have encapsulated the points quite nicely Dillon.  His actions weren't exactly conducive with those of a bereaved innocent survivor were they?

By introducing the imaginary telephone call from his father he effectively pointed the finger at Sheila.  Some posters have suggested that this was a change to his plan but I feel that was his intention from the beginning to set her up.

Your other point about using a relatively low powered .22 rifle to shoot people is spot on.  Nobody would such a weapon because it is ineffective. It is only effective with small animals and birds, it is not something any professional hitman would ever use.  Jeremy must have shit his pants when he realised that three bullets would not put Nevill down.  That poor man fought for his survival and his family, he is to be admired greatly for that.
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Angelo222

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #55 on: October 06, 2012, 11:23:58 AM »
Those are excellent plans Myster and very useful.  I have always found the layout of the farmhouse to be a bit confusing.  I also note that there were two doors into Sheilas bedroom which is interesting. Did you create the plans or were you able to find them on another site Myster?
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline Myster

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #56 on: October 06, 2012, 06:53:34 PM »
Thanks for posting a scaled drawing of the floor layout Myster, it is a huge improvement on what we had previously.  8((()*/

At last I can now see where the gun cupboard is exactly and where the stairs are accessed from.  Great work!  8@??)(

That 'bolted' blue door (5) and shown in picture No 3, I wonder how often that particular door was used if ever?

Thanks John!
I tried a couple of times to post them as attachments to reduce the amount of space they would take up but all I got was a blank screen when I pressed the Post button....., so I just uploaded them to Imgur.
Either the file was too big or the site traffic was too great.

Photo 3

The blue door (5) looks unusually wide, but I don't think it's distorted by a wide-angle camera lens, as the fishing waders appear normal size. If it had a lock and handle they could be hidden from view by that white cupboard, so you can't really tell if it was used or not.

By the amount of gear not locked up under the canopy, this side of the house was obviously used.
What looks like a waterfilled tank in the foreground may have been for washing the waders in. Could there have been a fishing pond on this eastern side, possibly hidden from view by the trees in the google overhead photo?

I wondered too if the white-painted surround on the left belongs to a door, not shown on the plan, which gives direct access to the Scullery?  Or maybe it's just a window frame.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

Offline Myster

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #57 on: October 06, 2012, 07:01:21 PM »
Thank's for posting that  8((()*/
Thanks from me too, Myster - never saw those before. Makes it a lot easier to "understand" the rather complicated layout of the WHF.


Thank-you Joanne and abs.
It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.

BB

  • Guest
Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #58 on: October 06, 2012, 07:09:39 PM »
I can't see the photos on the other forum, can someone post the picture from the stairs showing the rifle in the window? I seem to recall a window directly in front of the stairs on the upper floor. Maybe I recall it wrong. Don't think it makes a difference really, just curious.

Offline Myster

Re: White House Farm - Floor plans and photos
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2012, 07:38:20 PM »
Those are excellent plans Myster and very useful.  I have always found the layout of the farmhouse to be a bit confusing.  I also note that there were two doors into Sheilas bedroom which is interesting. Did you create the plans or were you able to find them on another site Myster?

Thank-you David.

They were created from the unfinished case plan copies downloaded originally from the previous forum, redrawn with additional rooms & furniture etc., scanned then labelled with Photoshop, and joined together with Irfanview.

One thing that I've wondered occasionally is whether Sheila having been woken up by the struggle between JB and his father on the stairs or in the kitchen, got up and saw her mother lying in the doorway, then went to check on the twins, heard her brother come back upstairs and tried to hide in that connecting Box room, before she was eventually forced or dragged into the master bedroom.

It's one of them cases, in'it... one of them f*ckin' cases.