Author Topic: Brexit has well and truly begun!  (Read 284455 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1980 on: August 19, 2019, 07:12:57 AM »
Ain’t it the truth?!  Another brilliant article from a Times commentator

Brexit doublethink is blinding us to the facts
August 19 2019, 12:01am,
Alex Massie

The challenge in British and American politics now is to steer through a tide of disinformation and land at the truth


‘To see what is in front of one’s nose needs a constant struggle.” So said George Orwell, patron saint of the commentator classes. Preach, comrade. If this has always been true it has rarely more certainly been the case than now. Absurdity and mendacity are the reserve currencies of the moment.

Consider the prime minister, a man who simultaneously reassures us that a no-deal Brexit is a “million-to-one” outsider about which there is no need to be concerned and then, in the very next breath, suggests that it’s no big deal because, if you look at matters from the correct perspective, no deal might be a spiffing result anyway.

This is a form of Brexit doublethink entirely consistent with Boris Johnson’s view that cake is for having and eating. Cakeism is all the rage these days.

Thus one cabinet minister told The Sun last week that “the EU will give us a better deal because if they don’t, Ireland is f***ed. No-deal will destroy it.” This is worth pondering. The UK will, on the whole, be OK with no deal and, indeed, might even thrive in such circumstances, but Ireland will be ruined. Sometimes, you know, you wonder if they’ve quite thought this through.

Meanwhile, in the real world every available indicator suggests that the EU is determined to stick to its position. The Irish government has long been concerned that, at the last moment, it might be abandoned by its European allies but, for the time being, the line that the Irish backstop is non-negotiable still holds.

Germany, meanwhile, appears more convinced than ever that no deal is, if you will, better than a bad deal for the EU. This may be a matter for regret; it remains the way it is. But then from the EU’s perspective there is a deal and it’s the British who are welching on it without bringing any attractive alternative proposals to the fabled Brexit table.

Not that delusions are restricted to the pro-Brexit half of British politics. In recent days there has been a flurry of wishful thinking about a so-called government of national unity — almost all of which has ignored the reality that no such thing is possible. Even if it could be cobbled together it would no more be a government of national unity than Mr Johnson’s ministry for the simple reason that any available government must either be in favour of Brexit or against it. As soon as a position has been taken on that matter the government forfeits all claims to be one of “national unity”.

Half of the country, roughly speaking, is in favour of Brexit and half of the country is less enthused by it and there’s nothing that can be done to change that. Unity is not on the agenda.

Spare us, too, the sanctimony of remainer MPs who would do anything to avoid a no-deal Brexit except vote for the withdrawal agreement negotiated by Theresa May that would, yes, have avoided a no-deal Brexit.

Jeremy Corbyn’s chiselling mendacity on this question is only to be expected but other MPs should know better and be held to a higher standard. A no-deal Brexit is on them almost as much as it is on the most committed Brexiteers.

Then there is the grisly question of Donald Trump. Brexiteers are all in with the Donald, not least because he’s one of the few world leaders who thinks Brexit is a capital notion. This owes less to the merits of the case for Brexit itself than to Mr Trump’s belief — his not entirely unwarranted belief — that the EU is a competitor more than it is a friend to the United States.

In Mr Trump’s mind every game is a zero-sum one and thus anything that weakens the EU is worthwhile. This is not a case of him being pro-British, rather one of him being anti-EU.

Even so the enthusiasm for Mr Trump evident in the keenest Brexit circles is revealing. It protests just a little too much for its own good and, by doing so, seems more likely to be a sign of weakness and neediness than strength. Mr Trump, however, will play along for as long as doing so allows someone else to be the mug.

Hence all this blathering about a fast-track trade deal with the UK. If this cannot be achieved — and it almost certainly will not be — there will instead be “sector by sector” mini deals that will, in sum, amount to much the same thing.

Pull the other one. Saying something does not make it so. Nothing in Mr Trump’s record suggests he understands the concept of comparative advantage. On the contrary, if you’re happy he assumes he’s being screwed. And Mr Trump would rather do the screwing himself. It takes some mammoth quantity of wishful thinking to look at Mr Trump’s trade war with China — so easy to win, apparently, yet in reality so self-defeating — and think he’s a man with whom Brexit Britain can do business. Even if he were, freer trade with the United States means stickier trade with the EU given the disparity in standards between the two trading powers.

Cosying up to this American president, besides being a grubby matter, is a risky proposition in any case. Mr Trump may not be president by Christmas next year and even if you think he might be more likely to be re-elected than not, there must be at least a 40 per cent chance he will not be re-endorsed by the American people. Do you really wish to go all-in on that?

Yesterday The Sunday Times revealed the contents of Operation Yellowhammer, the government’s contingency planning for a no-deal Brexit. They do not make for cheerful reading. Medical supplies will be “vulnerable to severe extended delays”, food supplies risk being compromised, disruption at ports will last for months before the situation “improves” so traffic flows are 50-70 per cent of the normal present rate.

So be it, you may think. Such are the consequences of a referendum that, on this one issue, makes MPs delegates not representatives. Brexit must happen because the people have insisted upon it but Brexit happening imposes no requirement to abandon the truth or to deny the obvious reality of truths that are hiding in plain sight.

But then, as Orwell said, doublethink permits you “to forget any fact that has become inconvenient” — even as you believe wholeheartedly in mutually exclusive realities.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1981 on: August 19, 2019, 11:55:10 AM »
Is that the law?

As I said earlier, it seems to be the procedure which follows a carried vote of no confidence. I can find nothing which says an unelected interim government would follow.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1982 on: August 19, 2019, 02:27:31 PM »
As I said earlier, it seems to be the procedure which follows a carried vote of no confidence. I can find nothing which says an unelected interim government would follow.
Boris does not have to call a general election until it suits him, he will time it so that parliament is suspended over the weeks leading up to  31st October sovthere can be no parliamentary opposition to a no deal Brexit.  Then, after the sunny uplands have been reached it will be election day and all the happy British people will vote for the Tories and he will go forward with a thumping majority, held aloft on a sedan chair made of gold.  That’s the theory anyway..
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1983 on: August 19, 2019, 06:01:17 PM »
Boris does not have to call a general election until it suits him, he will time it so that parliament is suspended over the weeks leading up to  31st October sovthere can be no parliamentary opposition to a no deal Brexit.  Then, after the sunny uplands have been reached it will be election day and all the happy British people will vote for the Tories and he will go forward with a thumping majority, held aloft on a sedan chair made of gold.  That’s the theory anyway..

If his government lose a vote of no confidence that changes the choices open to him. 
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1984 on: August 19, 2019, 06:11:22 PM »
If his government lose a vote of no confidence that changes the choices open to him.
Did you actually read what I wrote?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1985 on: August 20, 2019, 07:23:57 AM »
Did you actually read what I wrote?

Which bit?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1986 on: August 20, 2019, 07:50:10 AM »
Which bit?
All of it.  It wasn’t very long!
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1987 on: August 20, 2019, 09:52:54 AM »
Another great article, from Prospect Magazine

Is Boris Johnson bluffing?
The PM is genuinely banking on last minute concessions from Europe. But he has made a grave miscalculation

by Jonathan Lis   / August 14, 2019 / Leave a comment
Facebook
Twitter
Linkedin
Email
 
Would he really carry out his no-deal threats? Photo: Kirsty Wigglewsorth/PA Wire/PA Images

If you are wondering whether you are living through some kind of fever dream this summer, you are not alone. The normally calm and quiet August days are currently filled with newspaper articles about voluntary airlifts to deliver food and medicine in less than 12 weeks’ time, while pundits are debating what happens if the prime minister loses the confidence of MPs but refuses to resign. Government-supporting newspapers are reporting this unique self-inflicted catastrophe not as a manifestation of collective breakdown but as a celebration of national sovereignty. What on earth is going on?

Consider the prime minister himself. The most important thing to remember about Boris Johnson is that he is exclusively devoted to his own advancement. The second most important thing is that while we may consider him solipsistic and zealously uninterested in anyone else’s viewpoint, he is not stupid.

It is safe to assume that Johnson knows what no deal involves. Does he worry about a future of insulin shortages, the pound collapsing and supermarkets running out of food? Perhaps that’s the wrong way to frame it. Does he think he will be blamed for the disaster and will it cost him support? This is the better question, and if he is not a fool then he will know that the answer must be yes. There are many people who currently feel they could never vote for Jeremy Corbyn, but would still prefer a Corbyn government to a Johnson one which imposed medicine shortages on the grounds of defending national sovereignty.

The PM must know that no deal will destroy his premiership just months after it has begun. In other words, he does not want no deal. Why, then, does he appear to be leading us inexorably towards it?

There is plenty of speculation about what Johnson is up to. Some theories are better than others, though we cannot be certain of any of them. It may be that not even he knows what he thinks he is doing. But let’s assume he is engineering some kind of strategy.

Theory one is that Johnson is indeed pursuing no deal, but thinks he will escape the blame. Does he think the public will instead hold the EU responsible for the catastrophe? It is just about credible that the PM believes he can charm (or gaslight) the British people with his alleged charisma, but he should have the political sense to know that voters do not reward their leaders for economic chaos. The EU would never again feature on a British ballot paper. Johnson would. We should discount this one.

Two, Johnson genuinely wants no deal, but thinks it won’t be as bad as people are saying. The problem here is that it doesn’t matter. In recent months the media has responded with hysteria to airport closures and a power cut. Magnify that by a hundred and for a period of weeks or months and you have some idea of the chaos about to hit. People will not be satisfied if the disruption is only severe as opposed to calamitous. Nobody voted for chaos and will not respond to it with stoicism, a stiff upper lip or “Blitz spirit.” Unless Johnson is stupid—which he isn’t—he will know this too.

“If sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct”

The third theory is that Johnson wants no deal, and will achieve it by proroguing parliament. The courts will almost certainly block such an outrage, but again, it is highly unlikely the PM would ever attempt it. He does not want to go down in history as the prime minister who dismantled Britain’s parliamentary democracy, and he knows that he will not be able to govern if he does.

Four, that like a child who is pushing every limit in the knowledge that his parents will save him from himself, Johnson expects and indeed wants parliament to stop him. Then he can push for a “people-versus-parliament” election. This may be credible but is still laughably short-sighted. Johnson would have to stand on a platform of delivering a no-deal Brexit and then, if victorious, he would have to deliver it—thus ending his premiership immediately.

Five, that Johnson is attempting to shift the Overton window to the worst-case scenario in order to normalise a slightly better one. The worst-case scenario could be the suspension of parliament, or any kind of no deal. Yet if the PM tries to adapt Theresa May’s deal, or delivers any kind of bad Brexit, he will be punished for it—and he knows it.

The sixth—and most likely—theory recalls the defining error of the Brexiters over the last four years. Namely, Johnson really believes the EU will blink. Faced with the catastrophe of no deal, Ireland will confront the worst-case scenario the backstop was designed to avoid, and submit to the demands of its former colonial oppressor.

This seam of foolishness has been knocked down time and again, but survives in the Brexiters’ imagination because it is all they have left. They have to believe that we are powerful, have leverage and can one day rise to become a “great” nation again, because the alternative is to accept that a small country like Ireland is now vastly more powerful than we are, and that we have trashed our influence and reputation for no reason at all.

The truth is that the EU is not afraid of the UK and not afraid of no deal. It is afraid only of its own political fragmentation. It is why the EU insisted on giving us no special favours. It is why they refused to grant us membership of the single market in goods alone despite the advantage this would have given their businesses. And it is why Brussels will never throw Ireland under the bus to stop no deal.

Nobody in the EU wants Britain to crash out. They have worked hard to avoid it. But if the UK government ditches the exit deal it agreed in order to throw itself off a cliff, Brussels will let it. After all, if sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct.

Many clever people don’t understand the EU and never have. Exceptionalist self-obsession has convinced the prime minister that ultimately others will bend to his position through charisma or sheer force of will.

The PM doesn’t want no deal, but believes the EU wants it less. He is bluffing. But he has miscalculated. And he will be stopped.

 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1988 on: August 20, 2019, 12:42:12 PM »
All of it.  It wasn’t very long!

Yes, what about it?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
Result = happy posting.
Ignore and break the rules
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1989 on: August 20, 2019, 12:54:16 PM »
Another great article, from Prospect Magazine

Is Boris Johnson bluffing?
The PM is genuinely banking on last minute concessions from Europe. But he has made a grave miscalculation

by Jonathan Lis   / August 14, 2019 / Leave a comment
Facebook
Twitter
Linkedin
Email
 
Would he really carry out his no-deal threats? Photo: Kirsty Wigglewsorth/PA Wire/PA Images

If you are wondering whether you are living through some kind of fever dream this summer, you are not alone. The normally calm and quiet August days are currently filled with newspaper articles about voluntary airlifts to deliver food and medicine in less than 12 weeks’ time, while pundits are debating what happens if the prime minister loses the confidence of MPs but refuses to resign. Government-supporting newspapers are reporting this unique self-inflicted catastrophe not as a manifestation of collective breakdown but as a celebration of national sovereignty. What on earth is going on?

Consider the prime minister himself. The most important thing to remember about Boris Johnson is that he is exclusively devoted to his own advancement. The second most important thing is that while we may consider him solipsistic and zealously uninterested in anyone else’s viewpoint, he is not stupid.

It is safe to assume that Johnson knows what no deal involves. Does he worry about a future of insulin shortages, the pound collapsing and supermarkets running out of food? Perhaps that’s the wrong way to frame it. Does he think he will be blamed for the disaster and will it cost him support? This is the better question, and if he is not a fool then he will know that the answer must be yes. There are many people who currently feel they could never vote for Jeremy Corbyn, but would still prefer a Corbyn government to a Johnson one which imposed medicine shortages on the grounds of defending national sovereignty.

The PM must know that no deal will destroy his premiership just months after it has begun. In other words, he does not want no deal. Why, then, does he appear to be leading us inexorably towards it?

There is plenty of speculation about what Johnson is up to. Some theories are better than others, though we cannot be certain of any of them. It may be that not even he knows what he thinks he is doing. But let’s assume he is engineering some kind of strategy.

Theory one is that Johnson is indeed pursuing no deal, but thinks he will escape the blame. Does he think the public will instead hold the EU responsible for the catastrophe? It is just about credible that the PM believes he can charm (or gaslight) the British people with his alleged charisma, but he should have the political sense to know that voters do not reward their leaders for economic chaos. The EU would never again feature on a British ballot paper. Johnson would. We should discount this one.

Two, Johnson genuinely wants no deal, but thinks it won’t be as bad as people are saying. The problem here is that it doesn’t matter. In recent months the media has responded with hysteria to airport closures and a power cut. Magnify that by a hundred and for a period of weeks or months and you have some idea of the chaos about to hit. People will not be satisfied if the disruption is only severe as opposed to calamitous. Nobody voted for chaos and will not respond to it with stoicism, a stiff upper lip or “Blitz spirit.” Unless Johnson is stupid—which he isn’t—he will know this too.

“If sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct”

The third theory is that Johnson wants no deal, and will achieve it by proroguing parliament. The courts will almost certainly block such an outrage, but again, it is highly unlikely the PM would ever attempt it. He does not want to go down in history as the prime minister who dismantled Britain’s parliamentary democracy, and he knows that he will not be able to govern if he does.

Four, that like a child who is pushing every limit in the knowledge that his parents will save him from himself, Johnson expects and indeed wants parliament to stop him. Then he can push for a “people-versus-parliament” election. This may be credible but is still laughably short-sighted. Johnson would have to stand on a platform of delivering a no-deal Brexit and then, if victorious, he would have to deliver it—thus ending his premiership immediately.

Five, that Johnson is attempting to shift the Overton window to the worst-case scenario in order to normalise a slightly better one. The worst-case scenario could be the suspension of parliament, or any kind of no deal. Yet if the PM tries to adapt Theresa May’s deal, or delivers any kind of bad Brexit, he will be punished for it—and he knows it.

The sixth—and most likely—theory recalls the defining error of the Brexiters over the last four years. Namely, Johnson really believes the EU will blink. Faced with the catastrophe of no deal, Ireland will confront the worst-case scenario the backstop was designed to avoid, and submit to the demands of its former colonial oppressor.

This seam of foolishness has been knocked down time and again, but survives in the Brexiters’ imagination because it is all they have left. They have to believe that we are powerful, have leverage and can one day rise to become a “great” nation again, because the alternative is to accept that a small country like Ireland is now vastly more powerful than we are, and that we have trashed our influence and reputation for no reason at all.

The truth is that the EU is not afraid of the UK and not afraid of no deal. It is afraid only of its own political fragmentation. It is why the EU insisted on giving us no special favours. It is why they refused to grant us membership of the single market in goods alone despite the advantage this would have given their businesses. And it is why Brussels will never throw Ireland under the bus to stop no deal.

Nobody in the EU wants Britain to crash out. They have worked hard to avoid it. But if the UK government ditches the exit deal it agreed in order to throw itself off a cliff, Brussels will let it. After all, if sovereignty means anything, it means the right to self-destruct.

Many clever people don’t understand the EU and never have. Exceptionalist self-obsession has convinced the prime minister that ultimately others will bend to his position through charisma or sheer force of will.

The PM doesn’t want no deal, but believes the EU wants it less. He is bluffing. But he has miscalculated. And he will be stopped.

There are many who think they know what's what, but do they?
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1990 on: August 20, 2019, 05:16:29 PM »
Yes, what about it?
Your reply to my post did not seem to address anything I wrote in it.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1991 on: August 20, 2019, 05:17:34 PM »
There are many who think they know what's what, but do they?
The intelligent ones do, IMO.  This article is intelligent IMO. 
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline G-Unit

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1992 on: August 20, 2019, 06:33:50 PM »
The intelligent ones do, IMO.  This article is intelligent IMO.

I suppose 'the intelligent ones' include you, in your opinion?
Read and abide by the forum rules.
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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1993 on: August 20, 2019, 06:38:06 PM »
I suppose 'the intelligent ones' include you, in your opinion?
No, I’m thick as two short planks me, I’m sure you agree.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: Brexit has well and truly begun!
« Reply #1994 on: August 20, 2019, 06:45:47 PM »
Someone very intelligent said this:

“The Brexit vote is a disaster and the breaking up of the togetherness of Europe is a crime bordering on a sin. I think the more people are together, not separate, the happier they will be”.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly