Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844203 times)

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Offline Anna

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1050 on: July 20, 2015, 09:23:34 PM »
Going back to this video
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
It was a missing child case.
A cadaver dog alerted to a garage.
Police ignored the dog.
Weeks later a body was found in the garage.

The cadaver dogs did not alert to begin with and the police, thought it was too dangerous to let the dogs go right into the garage...... Probably full of junk.
The Officer also thought it was too early to detect a cadaver scent?

Then a private person? with a cadaver dog got a hit, but still nothing was done at that time.


I think that is how I understood the video.

As for the handler who was interviewed and gave a demo?. I have no idea what she was doing.
“You should not honour men more than truth.”
― Plato

Offline Brietta

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1051 on: July 20, 2015, 09:40:50 PM »
Going back to this video
 http://youtu.be/ZseVVfswzPA
It was a missing child case.
A cadaver dog alerted to a garage.
Police ignored the dog.
Weeks later a body was found in the garage.

The police dogs did not alert initially ... the alert from a cadaver dog owned by a member of the public was ignored and not acted on (although we are not told of the circumstances in which this happened) ... it was only when the mother's boyfriend confessed to suffocating the baby after her mother had assaulted her and showed the police the box in the garage where he had hidden her that she was found.

There seems to have been a rather slip shod investigation carried out into the child's disappearance ... a blanket, the floor and the wall beside her crib were all bloodstained.

As far as I can see,Pegasus, there are no parallels with Madeleine's disappearance ... this was classic dysfunctional family ...

The child was only reported missing when she was not available for her father's custody visitation.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1052 on: July 20, 2015, 10:19:00 PM »
So a cadaver dog DID alert correctly. That's the whole point here, Why bring dysfunctional or not families into it rather than but just the fact or whether the dog alerted to a cadaver.

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1053 on: July 21, 2015, 02:01:57 AM »
The police dogs did not alert initially ... the alert from a cadaver dog owned by a member of the public was ignored and not acted on (although we are not told of the circumstances in which this happened) ... it was only when the mother's boyfriend confessed to suffocating the baby after her mother had assaulted her and showed the police the box in the garage where he had hidden her that she was found.

There seems to have been a rather slip shod investigation carried out into the child's disappearance ... a blanket, the floor and the wall beside her crib were all bloodstained.

As far as I can see,Pegasus, there are no parallels with Madeleine's disappearance ... this was classic dysfunctional family ...

The child was only reported missing when she was not available for her father's custody visitation.
The police did deploy cadaver dogs but did not allow them into the garage because the large amount of junk inside made it unsafe. The cadaver dog of a volunteer organisation working with the police however did alert to the garage, but police ignored its alert.
If we freeze that USA case at that point and pretend we don't know the solution....
the similarity between that USA case, and the PDL case today, (and the Addington case frozen on Thu 9th) would be...
missing child ... a dog alerted but was ignored ... case unsolved.


Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1054 on: July 21, 2015, 02:19:02 AM »
The police did deploy cadaver dogs but did not allow them into the garage because the large amount of junk inside made it unsafe. The cadaver dog of a volunteer organisation working with the police however did alert to the garage, but police ignored its alert.
If we freeze that USA case at that point and pretend we don't know the solution....
the similarity between that USA case, and the PDL case today, (and the Addington case frozen on Thu 9th) would be...
missing child ... a dog alerted but was ignored ... case unsolved.
Did the dogs in the US case not indicate near the garage doors on first inspection, despite the complete cadaver being inside?

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1055 on: July 21, 2015, 02:27:13 AM »
This is a case worth keeping an eye on.


http://www.hlntv.com/article/2015/07/17/deorr-kunz-missing-family-fear-abducted

Idaho authorities are now using sonar as well as divers to search a remote reservoir for missing 2-year-old DeOrr Kunz Jr.  The toddler disappeared last Friday while camping with his family near the Stone Reservoir in Leadore.

Police divers have been methodically searching every square inch of the reservoir for the little boy after cadaver dogs indicated there may be something there. However, Lemhi County Sheriff Lynn Bowerman tells HLN they just learned that someone had been dumping human cremains in the reservoir, and that very well could be the smell the dogs picked up on.

“It’s pretty disappointing. Someone was depositing human cremains up there while we’re searching the area. It contaminates the reservoir and the entire area,” says Bowerman.

“Nevertheless, we have sonar there today and divers still at the reservoir. We are going to side scan and sonar the whole lake. We have people up there on horseback too searching as we speak.”

The boy’s parents, DeOrr Kunz Sr. and Jessica Mitchell, told police they left the toddler with his great-grandfather and a friend of the great-grandfather’s to go exploring, but when they returned less than 15 minutes later, the child was nowhere to be found.  The great-grandfather, in turn, thought DeOrr was with his parents.  It was then that Mitchell called 911 to report her son missing.

While the couple remain up on the mountain waiting for any word of their son, his paternal grandfather, also named DeOrr Kunz, told HLN the family believes little DeOrr may have been kidnapped.

“He had little toy hot wheel trucks in his pocket and nothing fell. They found nothing.  It’s like he vanished without a trace.  He had to have been abducted.  The only good thing about being abducted is it means he’s is still alive,” says Kunz.

Authorities say while nothing has been ruled out, they don’t believe foul play is in involved.

“We are still treating it as a missing person,” says Sheriff Bowerman.

Bowerman says the National Center of Missing and Exploited Children have requested they collect DNA samples from the parents.

“They want that on file so if the child turns up somewhere else they can easily check if there’s a match. It’s standard procedure with all missing children,” Bowman said.

According to police, the parents have agreed and are “cooperating 100%.”  Authorities say they are concerned parents who just want to find their son and have even offered to take lie detector tests.

Bowerman says they will complete their search of the reservoir and re-assess at the end of the weekend where to focus on next. In the meantime, they are following up on all the leads and tips that keep coming in.

DeOrr’s grandfather says he’s heartbroken over his missing grandson.

“They've lived with me in my house for the past year and a half and he's my buddy. When he wants to take a nap he'll come up to me and say 'nap papa, nap papa,' so we'd lay down and take a nap. I’m so attached to him. I don't know what I'd do if we lost him. I just can't imagine going day to day without that little boy running around. I’m so sad. I’m just at a loss here.”

DeOrr was last seen wearing cowboy boots, blue pajama pants, and a camouflage jacket. 

Police are asking anyone with information to call 208-846-7676.

Offline pegasus

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1056 on: July 21, 2015, 03:26:55 AM »
@misty
"Parents ... thought their son's great-grandfather was looking after the boy - and the great-grandfather thought the parents had him"
It that respect is similar to the Kos case, one relative thinks other relative has child and vice versa, so the disappearance is not noticed immediately.

"There's a four-minute window where no one had an eye on him"
http://www.people.com/article/missing-boy-idaho-grandfather-speaks
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 03:38:24 AM by pegasus »

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1057 on: July 21, 2015, 07:14:16 AM »
the title of the thread is amaral and the dogs...the point being that amaral..the SIO ...drew incorrect conclusions from the alerts...

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1058 on: July 21, 2015, 07:53:33 AM »
the title of the thread is amaral and the dogs...the point being that amaral..the SIO ...drew incorrect conclusions from the alerts...

Take gerry mccanns advice to Sandra. 8)-)))

Offline Benice

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1059 on: July 21, 2015, 08:38:49 AM »
the title of the thread is amaral and the dogs...the point being that amaral..the SIO ...drew incorrect conclusions from the alerts...

This is true, you only have to read his book to realise how ignorant he was about their abilities.  He apparently  thought  that an alert by Eddie proved that a body must have been present at the place where the dog alerted.  As we know from Martin Grime that is not true.

On the other hand -  if he wasn't ignorant of the facts, then IMO he cherry picked info about the dogs which suited his agenda and ignored anything which didn't      From a 'policing' point of view -  that's even worse than being a policeman who made errors because he hadn't done his homework properly IMO.

 
The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1060 on: July 21, 2015, 09:08:56 AM »
This is true, you only have to read his book to realise how ignorant he was about their abilities.  He apparently  thought  that an alert by Eddie proved that a body must have been present at the place where the dog alerted.  As we know from Martin Grime that is not true.

On the other hand -  if he wasn't ignorant of the facts, then IMO he cherry picked info about the dogs which suited his agenda and ignored anything which didn't      From a 'policing' point of view -  that's even worse than being a policeman who made errors because he hadn't done his homework properly IMO.

SY are looking for a body.

It is you who is ignorant to why they were brought in to investigate. Alerts in and outside the crime scene. On clothes including a kids top and no blood on the clothes. Harrison clearly states if Eddie alerts on his own and no body is there it has been removed. Eddie's first alert was at the wardrobe and Keela didn't alert there. Grime clearly states his professional opinion is the EVRD alerts were for cadaver but they need to be corroborated.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2015, 09:11:03 AM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Benice

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1061 on: July 21, 2015, 09:42:18 AM »
SY are looking for a body.

It is you who is ignorant to why they were brought in to investigate. Alerts in and outside the crime scene. On clothes including a kids top and no blood on the clothes. Harrison clearly states if Eddie alerts on his own and no body is there it has been removed. Eddie's first alert was at the wardrobe and Keela didn't alert there. Grime clearly states his professional opinion is the EVRD alerts were for cadaver but they need to be corroborated.

As children who are abducted and murdered are often found comparatively near to where the abduction took place, then it is not surprising if the police are searching for a body.  However anyone who thinks the police believe it was the McCanns wotdunnit - is going to be very disappointed IMO.

Martin Grime makes it plain that there are various other scenarios (apart from a dead body) as to why cadaverscent may be present.   It is because of these other possible reasons that no evidencial value can be placed on an alert unless it is corroborated.       

AFAIK - Not once does he say an alert by Eddie is suggestive of a cadaver i.e. (dead body).   He always uses the word 'Cadaverscent' - which according to him, could be present for perfectly innocent reasons -   cross contamination being one of them.

The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1062 on: July 21, 2015, 09:51:32 AM »
I see that nutball Birch is at it again.

His LinkedIn page claim says everything about him.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1063 on: July 21, 2015, 10:02:02 AM »
As children who are abducted and murdered are often found comparatively near to where the abduction took place, then it is not surprising if the police are searching for a body.  However anyone who thinks the police believe it was the McCanns wotdunnit - is going to be very disappointed IMO.

Martin Grime makes it plain that there are various other scenarios (apart from a dead body) as to why cadaverscent may be present.   It is because of these other possible reasons that no evidencial value can be placed on an alert unless it is corroborated.       

AFAIK - Not once does he say an alert by Eddie is suggestive of a cadaver i.e. (dead body).   He always uses the word 'Cadaverscent' - which according to him, could be present for perfectly innocent reasons -   cross contamination being one of them.

There was no evidence found of cross contamination from other deaths there or contaminated furniture. Smithman took the risk to move her probably to the dark deserted beach/rocks but it doesn't mean she stayed there. The safest closest place to quickly hide under rocks (he's not digging a hole is he?) and later retrieve a body in the dark and not near street lights.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Benice

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #1064 on: July 21, 2015, 10:22:54 AM »
There was no evidence found of cross contamination from other deaths there or contaminated furniture. Smithman took the risk to move her probably to the dark deserted beach/rocks but it doesn't mean she stayed there. The safest closest place to quickly hide under rocks (he's not digging a hole is he?) and later retrieve a body in the dark and not near street lights.

I see you have ignored the point I made that Martin Grime never uses the word cadaver - only cadaverscent.  In fact he is careful not to do that in his videos.

If you believe a dead body must have been in 5A at some time because of the alerts - then it's Martin Grime you are disagreeing with.

Whoever took Madeleine from 5A - I agree with the AG and SY that it wasn't the McCanns, as there is no evidence
that they were in any way involved.

In order to think they were involved then IMO you first have to remove all common sense, logic and reasoned thought from the equation.




The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal