Amaral and the dogs

[Carana]

What we have to be able to understand in a situation such as this is in a hot climate with the apartment being closed down, the scent will build up in a particular area. If there isn't a scent source in here, i.e. a physical article where the scent is emitting from, any scent residue will collect in a particular place due to the air movement of the flat, the apartment and what I would say in this case is that there is enough scent in that area there for him to give me a bark indication but the source may not be in that cupboard, the source may well be in this room somewhere else but the air is actually pushing into that corner

(Martin Grime).

Something a bit odd about that is that residual scent would be in permeable materials... yet the dog was reacting to the scent cone, presumably of an airflow indicating the direction of that corner of the bedroom.

Grime has only ever stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but Eddie could have sniffed whatever was within his training parameters (which includes dried blood) without the physical source being present.

Sooo... someone has to explain to me in very simple terms why Eddie could not have been reacting to anything that had blood on it that had been removed just prior to the inspection.

[Carana]

In the Jersey case the SIO seemingly being allowed to run around inadequately supervised, like the Wild Man of Borneo, was detrimental. It should not, though, be forgotten there was a result in the Jersey case. The fact that Mr Grime and his dawgs merit little more than a page in a report approaching 400 pages would tend to put his role in this case in perspective.

Hmmmm.

A casual search for just "dog" in that report highlights 21 pages of that report. I suppose I could check through all of them to check if they all related to the same dog....

In the meantime, perhaps you'd have a glance through this:

http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20OperationRectangleReviewUseResources%20201005%20BDO.pdf

and

http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/ScrutinyReviewSubmissions/Submission%20-%20Issues%20surrounding%20the%20Review%20of%20Financial%20Management%20of%20Operation%20Rectangle%20-%20BDO%20Alto%20-%2012%20July%202011.pdf

[stephen25000]

So are you saying cadaverine was detected....because Grime doesn't

Did Grime perform the forensic tests ?

So what did the dogs detect then ?

Was it hot air ?

[stephen25000]

Something a bit odd about that is that residual scent would be in permeable materials... yet the dog was reacting to the scent cone, presumably of an airflow indicating the direction of that corner of the bedroom.

Grime has only ever stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but Eddie could have sniffed whatever was within his training parameters (which includes dried blood) without the physical source being present.

Sooo... someone has to explain to me in very simple terms why Eddie could not have been reacting to anything that had blood on it that had been removed just prior to the inspection.

Are you familiar with process of physical adsorption ?

[Carana]

Are you familiar with process of physical adsorption ?

No. Did Grime explain that possibility in his report?

[ferryman]

It was a holiday flat (once a residential flat, apparently).
No one knows the origin of the furniture, no one knows what accidents may have happened in that flat over time.

The flat had been rented out 4 times since the disappearance... with various other people having had access.

It's impossible to know what Eddie could have been reacting to.

Something a bit odd about that is that residual scent would be in permeable materials... yet the dog was reacting to the scent cone, presumably of an airflow indicating the direction of that corner of the bedroom.

Grime has only ever stated that Keela would only react in the physical presence of blood, but Eddie could have sniffed whatever was within his training parameters (which includes dried blood) without the physical source being present.

Sooo... someone has to explain to me in very simple terms why Eddie could not have been reacting to anything that had blood on it that had been removed just prior to the inspection.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

[stephen25000]

No. Did Grime explain that possibility in his report?

I'm not sure on that.

It would depend on how extensive his knowledge is of the possible compounds being detected, and onto what 'surfaces' they could be adsorbed on.

Likewise, how long any would be retained would depend on several other key factors.

[Carana]

I'm not sure on that.

It would depend on how extensive his knowledge is of the possible compounds being detected, and onto what 'surfaces' they could be adsorbed on.

Likewise, how long any would be retained would depend on several other key factors.

I haven't found anything to indicate that Grime had even mentioned the concept of adsorption, let alone how long any such molecules (within a short potential timeframe of the presence of a corpse) could have been retained in a flat with its particular history of occupancy.

[Alice Purjorick]

93 grand is not a bad pay-off for a bit-part ....

I would say £93k in £6.6 MM is pretty small beer. In me 'ead that's less than 1.5% ?.
Even so that was one of the beefs of CO Power but he never followed it through as the report shows.
If however you believe that Grime was the spider at the centre of the web calling all the shots read the report and see what the conclusions are.

[pegasus]

If A = last seen, B = min alertable time, C = time move, and A and B are known, find C.
C > A+B.
Please excuse the complicated maths.

[Carana]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!

I'm thinking of a bloodied plaster / sock, whatever, that could have been removed from a previous occupant prior to the inspection.

Is it likely that any of the PJ inspectors could have planted any such object and removed it just prior to the inspection in the hope that Eddie would react?

Personally, I doubt it unless Grime or Harrison had explained to them verbally in a briefing prior to the inspection that Eddie could react to the residual scent of blood.

If that had been the case, Amaral would certainly have been harping on about cleaned blood stains in the bedroom - which he doesn't appear to have done.

[Mr Gray]

Did Grime perform the forensic tests ?

So what did the dogs detect then ?

Was it hot air ?

If grime says that the alerts suggest cadaverine then he doesn't know for sure... That's it

[Alice Purjorick]

Hmmmm.

A casual search for just "dog" in that report highlights 21 pages of that report. I suppose I could check through all of them to check if they all related to the same dog....

In the meantime, perhaps you'd have a glance through this:

http://www.gov.je/SiteCollectionDocuments/Government%20and%20administration/R%20OperationRectangleReviewUseResources%20201005%20BDO.pdf

and

http://www.statesassembly.gov.je/ScrutinyReviewSubmissions/Submission%20-%20Issues%20surrounding%20the%20Review%20of%20Financial%20Management%20of%20Operation%20Rectangle%20-%20BDO%20Alto%20-%2012%20July%202011.pdf

The BDO Report "Trigger Event 1" is at variance with the findings of the Wiltshire Police Inquiry so who do we choose to believe?
Any road up in The Wiltshire Police Report pretty much everything of significance to do with Mr Grime is in section 3.10.
The words "Grime" and "dog" do appear elsewhere for example in one sentence in section 2.41.

[ferryman]

Wherever Eddie barked, they dug, in expectation of finding bodies.

And they found none.

But led to interesting speculation about Eddie's abilities to sniff death through concrete (and the like).

[stephen25000]

If grime says that the alerts suggest cadaverine then he doesn't know for sure... That's it

When did Grime conduct the forensic analysis dave ?

The dogs were trained to detect certain compounds, the Diammine is just on of those associated with a body.

I assume Gas CHromatography was used to in the forensic analysis.