Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844270 times)

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Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2490 on: August 14, 2015, 06:40:21 PM »
When did Grime conduct the forensic analysis dave ?

The dogs were trained to detect certain compounds, the Diammine is just on of those associated with a body.

I assume Gas CHromatography was used to in the forensic analysis.

The presence of cadaver one was not confirmed .....fact

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2491 on: August 14, 2015, 06:58:52 PM »
Wherever Eddie barked, they dug, in expectation of finding bodies.

And they found none.

But led to interesting speculation about Eddie's abilities to sniff death through concrete (and the like).

Collagen is found in mammals not coconut.



"One chamber contained a concrete bathtub splattered with blood."

Forensic scientists searching the cellars, where victims have told them they were taken to be abused, have already uncovered 65 milk teeth and up to 100 pieces of bone that they say appear to have been burned. An intact adenoid bone, from the ear of a child, has also been found, it has been reported.

https://aftermathnews.wordpress.com/2008/07/14/
« Last Edit: August 14, 2015, 07:02:22 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2492 on: August 14, 2015, 07:04:44 PM »
I'm thinking of a bloodied plaster / sock, whatever, that could have been removed from a previous occupant prior to the inspection.

Is it likely that any of the PJ inspectors could have planted any such object and removed it just prior to the inspection in the hope that Eddie would react?

Personally, I doubt it unless Grime or Harrison had explained to them verbally in a briefing prior to the inspection that Eddie could react to the residual scent of blood.

If that had been the case, Amaral would certainly have been harping on about cleaned blood stains in the bedroom - which he doesn't appear to have done.

Where did you read that?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2493 on: August 14, 2015, 07:06:56 PM »
Collagen is found in mammals not coconut.



So that being the case, why did Eddie react to a coconut?

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2494 on: August 14, 2015, 07:09:53 PM »
Eddie showed the same lack of interest in the Renault after 30 seconds as he did to the other cars.   If it wasn't for the repeated call-backs that would have been an end to it IMO.     It was Martin Grime's behaviour which changed at the Renault - not Eddies.   He did not repeatedly call Eddie back to any other car.

No way do I think MG is a fraud but I do not rule out the possibility of unconscious cueing -  and that is not a slur on MG  - as the handler does not know it is happening.    And it certainly is NOT a crime.

IMO Martin Grime is a brilliant dog trainer, but he is still human and therefore it is not impossible that this may have happened.   
 
This 'job' was under in the world's spotlight and he was about to embark on his own business where Eddie and Keela would be his livelihood.    That must have involved a considerable amount of extra  pressure to make sure that he 'got it right'.         It certainly wasn't just another day at the office for him IMO, which it would have been had he been staying in the police service IMO.

IMO he may have inadvertently and unconsciously over-egged the pudding.

I repeat that is not a crime, but something which does happen.   Tests have proved 'unconscious cueing' to be a fact -  and something which can happen to perfectly decent and honest police dog handlers.

How can you say that repeatedly calling the dog back to one car and no other is unconscious cueing? That doesn't make sense.
BTW, the video is edited, the original is hours longer, so here , you can't be certain how all cars  were inspected.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2495 on: August 14, 2015, 07:13:20 PM »
Think very carefully about what you are saying here.

How likely is it that in all the residences checked by the dogs, including the Murat villa ... the only place where an individual had shed blood was in the McCann holiday residence?

Eddie was not sent in to detect blood.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2496 on: August 14, 2015, 07:15:36 PM »
Eddie was not sent in to detect blood.

Irrelevant.

You can't ask a dog to switch off from that they are trained to detect unless you desensitise the dog to that scent.

Both Grime and Harrison make plain Eddie would react to blood.

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2497 on: August 14, 2015, 07:19:39 PM »
Did you ever read the link (I believe Anna?) produced a while back of all the people besides Paul Anthony Gordon (who cut himself shaving and paced the whole apartment trying to stem the flow of blood for 45 minutes) to bleed in apartment 5a?

And the only inspection where Keela went first was in the gym.

The mantra goes that, generally, Eddie is the first to be deployed, then Keela afterwards ....

Actually, I'm not convinced Keela and Eddie were deployed on the same case before PdL ....

Was Paul Gordon's DNA matched?

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2498 on: August 14, 2015, 07:21:55 PM »
Irrelevant.

You can't ask a dog to switch off from that they are trained to detect unless you desensitise the dog to that scent.

Both Grime and Harrison make plain Eddie would react to blood.

But not microscopic or residual scent or which Carana has suggested.?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2499 on: August 14, 2015, 07:23:09 PM »
Was Paul Gordon's DNA matched?

No idea.

But there was some DNA they couldn't identify.  Perhaps some of it was his.

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2500 on: August 14, 2015, 07:25:33 PM »
But not microscopic or residual scent or which Carana has suggested.?

There was a link given on this board way back to all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a.

The miracle is that, apparently, no one bled in any of the other apartments ....

Offline mercury

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2501 on: August 14, 2015, 07:32:15 PM »
There was a link given on this board way back to all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a.

The miracle is that, apparently, no one bled in any of the other apartments ....

Were they asked? If they did and it was cleaned/washed away, would Eddie have alerted ? And By miracle, is what you really mean, you believe it was planted?

No idea.

But there was some DNA they couldn't identify.  Perhaps some of it was his.

They had the Gordon family dna and statements so surprising that it wasn't.

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2502 on: August 14, 2015, 07:33:40 PM »
There was a link given on this board way back to all the people (besides Mr Gordon) who did, or might have, bled in apartment 5a.

The miracle is that, apparently, no one bled in any of the other apartments ....

For you ferryman and those others who ignore evidence, knowledge and logic which doesn't suit your agenda.


'   Specialist dogs are demonstrably reliable.

In the Oesterhelweg et al 1998 study, it was demonstrated that the overall accuracy of the dogs they tested was 98%

Controlled studies like these are important as they are able, amongst other things, to identify false negatives and positives, something which is very difficult to do in the field. In the Zapata case, for example, the judge originally excluded the dog evidence as he decided that in tests conducted, where no alert had been signalled by the dog, no human had gone over the ground and checked there was nothing there for the dog to find. He therefore declared these ''false negatives'', which is nonsense. Hence studies which identify genuine false positives and negatives are vital.

Dogs trained to detect chemical changes in urine consistent with bladder cancer are able to do so with greater accuracy than laboratory tests, a pattern repeated with dogs trained to detect other medical problems. Dogs can alert to the presence of numerous malignant changes, possibly as a result of necrosis associated with the tumour, and can even signal to people with epilepsy that a seizure is imminent.

Humans do have these abilities - they are just nowhere near as pronounced as in dogs. Experienced nurses quickly learn to detect certain bacterial wound infections by their distinctive odour, for example.

If a dog gives an alert, it is alerting to the scent. The scent may be residual, and there may be no remains present to find, but is that a false alert? No, of course it isn't. It is alerting to something which was present and has now gone.

Because it is not possible to completely eliminate the risk of false positive alerts and unconscious signalling by handlers, an uncorroborated alert is unlikely to be considered sufficient to present in evidence, but may still add to the weight of circumstantial evidence.

The twisting and whining by McCann supporters, and by the McCanns themselves who have made some outrageous statements about Cadaver dogs in general and Mr Grime in particular, does them no favours.

The 'coconut shell' debacle is another example of this hysteria. ''Eddie found a coconut!'' they shriek.
No.

Eddie alerted to the ground. A forensic anthropologist identified a piece of what looked like it might be human skull. This is not uncommon, as if you field walk any ploughed field in the uk you are likely to find two things - medieval pottery and pieces of ancient human bone. Subsequent tests suggested it was probably a piece of seed pod or shell, but Eddie alerted to the ground, or earth adherent to the shell, not the shell itself.

The dog alerts in PdL provided what Redwood would have called ''an investigative opportunity''
It will be interesting to see if, should another suspect ever emerge, the McCann supporters will be so keen to dismiss multiple uncorroborated alerts from their property   '

stephen25000

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2503 on: August 14, 2015, 07:36:58 PM »
From davel earlier..............


''There is no confirmation from grime that the alerts were to cadaverine ..... In reality we do not have a clue what the alerts were to''

and a response from another poster to davel, in addition to my earlier ones.

'  Well, you clearly don't. Grime's dogs were not trained to alert to Cadaverine. Cadaverine is a volatile compound which is just one of the molecules which contributes to cadaver odour.

His dogs were trained to alert to cadaver odour. Therefore, a positive alert signals the presence of cadaver odour.

It is possible to ''collect'' a scent from the air and analyse the constituent molecules but this was not attempted here'

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #2504 on: August 14, 2015, 07:47:13 PM »
Wherever Eddie barked, they dug, in expectation of finding bodies.

And they found none.

But led to interesting speculation about Eddie's abilities to sniff death through concrete (and the like).

That view would not seem to be borne out by the inquiry:
3.10.2
It is apparent from DCO HARPER’s policy book entries relating to the search of Haut de la Garenne that the rationale he developed to justify the search (in particular the full scale dig inside the premises) is based upon historic accounts from witnesses of varying reliability. However, Decision 13 of the Search Policy Book also makes reference to the Ground Penetrating Radar confirmation of anomalies under the floor and ‘dog indications’

3.10.8
On 11 February 2008, a string of e-mails between the States of
Jersey Police Forensic Service Manager,
X , and DCO HARPER, reflect X attempts to persuade him to search the inside of Haut de la Garenne. DCO HARPER is adamant in his reply that they will not search that area as ‘there is not a shred of intelligence or evidence to suggest that anything untoward took place in any of the rooms. We would be ‘fishing’.
3.10.9
It appears to this Inquiry that the only additional information obtained by DCO HARPER after that point, when he was so adamant that the search should not take place, was the opinion of a builder who conducted work on the building in 2003 and held a contrary view to a pathologist who, in 2003 when bones were found at Haut de la Garenne, classified them as animal rather than human. It cannot be ascertained, in the absence of documentary records to assist us, why the view of this builder should have had such a profound effect on DCO HARPER, causing him to change his initial viewpoint.
Neither has any record been found as to whether this particular aspect of the decision was referred to CO POWER for consideration.
3.10.10
It seems more likely to this Inquiry, that CO POWER felt that, against the political backdrop and suggestions of ‘cover up’ and concealment, there was no alternative but to search Haut de la Garenne with a view to bringing the rumours and speculation to an end. Operation Haven accepts that this legitimate objective must be taken into account when assessing the performance of the Chief Officer in respect of this facet of our Inquiry.



"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey