Amaral and the dogs

[Anna]

.

Oh dear.  Now that is really funny.  It made me laugh out loud.

And Eddie did seem to have a bit of a problem with Martin Grime's.

PS.  I have tried pointing at the offending puddle and telling her that she is for the chop if she doesn't mend her ways.  But she obviously doesn't get my body language.

Probably a bit off topic, but all in the training of a dog. Try a toy water pistol, when she squats to wee. Fire!

[mercury]

Have you?

I have read enough to know that dogs can alert to the smell of something that had once been there such as a bloody rag or similar,  Eddie alerted to blood,  he would detect the scent even if there wasn't any blood there, cadaver dogs have also been known to alert to decaying vegetation,  Eddie alerted to the garden,  could be the scent of the garden was brought in on someone's shoes.

If Madeleine had lain in that bedroom long enough for the scent of cadaver to be present then Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

 

Says who?

And let us suppose he could, what would be the point of that remarkable ability

?

[Eleanor]

Probably a bit off topic, but all in the training of a dog. Try a toy water pistol, when she squats to wee. Fire!

If only, Anna.  But she never does it when I am watching her.

[Lace]

Says who?

And let us suppose he could, what would be the point of that remarkable ability

?

Have you forgotten what it said in the article I give you a link to already?

In the article it states that an alert by a cadaver dog needs to be taken with caution as someone could have left a bloody rag or a sanitary pad in the spot where the dog is alerting.

Isn't it strange how some don't like criticism of Grime yet are quick to laugh and mock at what other experts at training cadaver dogs say.

edited to add -

Unfortunately, in such a situation the trier of fact may easily be misled as to both the accuracy and precision of the dog's actions: Accuracy in the sense that the dog (depending upon its level of training) may be reacting to something other than residual scent from decomposed human tissue; precision in that the dog may be reacting correctly to the scent of decomposed human tissue, but imprecise in the sense that the dog is not differentiating between whose decomposed human tissue is giving the scent. Further, there may be legitimate reasons for the scent being there: someone may have been injured and left bloody clothing there, someone may have left a used sanitary napkin, etc. Our research demonstrates that residual scent from decomposed human tissue persists in a closed building for many months at levels sufficient to cause a trained dog to alert.
 

[G-Unit]

If Eddie had been outside somewhere looking for cadaver scent of Madeleine,   Grime wouldn't have been able to call him back numerous times as he wouldn't have known what Madeleine had been in contact with.   The fact that Eddie was in 5a a place that Madeleine had been living all week Grime could call Eddie back again and again,  if he hadn't Eddie would have ran out of the bedroom without alerting.

In the other apartments Eddie just ran in and out of the rooms,  Grime didn't call him back constantly to the same room.

If there had been cadaver scent in the bedroom Eddie would have alerted straight away to it.

Eddie alerted straight away to the place where Keela alerted,   a tiny miniscule of what is believed to be blood under one of the tiles,   if that had been from where Madeleine had bled there would have been a lot more blood and Eddie would have alerted to the whole of the area behind the sofa.

So to me,  no,   Eddie did not alert to cadaver scent in 5a.

Hi Lace. You said recently that Eddie was re-trained from SAR to VRD. do you have a cite for that please?

[Brietta]

Because a dog alerted to the scent of death in the home of Shannon Mathews,
I do wonder what conclusion would have been arrived at, had the child been found deceased in a wood or somewhere else.
Would they have investigated the possibility of the furniture in the home, being purchased from a deceased person?
How could they know that the scent that was supposedly alerted too, was on furniture or who that scent belonged too?
How do you check any antique or pre-owned furniture you may purchase, for cadaver scent? You can not!

There are so many possible reasons for an alert of cadaver dog, that I do not believe any can be reliable, unless a body is found in the location of that alert. Just my opinion, of course.

If people could take the 'dog's don't lie' belief system out of the equation I think people would realise that there is still a great deal of scientific research and work going into understanding just exactly what it is that causes the dogs to react. 

Because Shannon was very obviously alive they had to find out what caused the alerts, would they have bothered otherwise?

If her remains had been found or she had not been found at all ... what would that have meant for the investigation and the misdirection of resources into her case.

I agree with everything you have said in your post although I know that dogs do alert in areas where bodies have lain (eg ... soil contaminated by a corpse is used for training purposes and I read that when the containing jar is opened it is possible to discern a scent ... can't find the cite).

Were I on a jury listening to cadaver scent evidence where remains or fragments had not been found ... I would not be a happy bunny.   

**Snip
But in the field, VR dogs can sometimes be distracted by “false positives”, such as dead animals, or even mushrooms, explained Lorna.  If she can arrive at a greater understanding of the chemistry of odours from human cadavers, then VR dogs can be extra efficient.
https://www.hud.ac.uk/news/2014/august/forensicsresearchtomakecadaverdogsmoreefficient.php

[G-Unit]

The fact remains there was no evidence, apart from blood, to substantiate alerts.  Opinion doesn't count.

  ... and I do wish you would refrain from shouting.

Neither do opinions which say the alerts were not to cadaver scent, so all equal there.

[Lace]

Hi Lace. You said recently that Eddie was re-trained from SAR to VRD. do you have a cite for that please?

Hi G Unit this is a snip of what Martin Grime said about his dogs Eddie and Keela -


A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime. Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme. Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work.

[Mr Gray]

Despite all the discussion
The alerts have no evidential or intelligence reliability

[Brietta]

Your "experience" or assessments of other posters are neither here nor there.

You seem to need to resort to it though.

Are you not "only asking questions" of the alerts and the handler, then?

You don't have an opinion on the value of the alerts attributed to Eddie then?  Sorry about my mythconception on that.

I bear in mind that it can be difficult to defend the indefensible.

[ferryman]

Neither do opinions which say the alerts were not to cadaver scent, so all equal there.

Opinions of that sort are unjustly accusing and have no place in official police enquiries.

Particularly by a dog-handler who kept one of the dog inspection videos for his own, personal, promotion on a separate case during the course of his (further) career as a free-lance dog-handler ....

[Brietta]

Neither do opinions which say the alerts were not to cadaver scent, so all equal there.

    Not at all equal ... unless one gives no weight to what Eddie's handler has to say in his rogatory statement.

[G-Unit]

Hi G Unit this is a snip of what Martin Grime said about his dogs Eddie and Keela -


A dog just needs to show a keen sense of smell and it's the training that makes them good enhanced victim recovery dogs, says Mr Grime. Eddie was bred by a specialist search-dog breeder and Keela came from the West Midlands Police breeding programme. Both live with Mr Grime and have a normal life outside of work.

So no mention of Eddie being re-trained then? Is that quote in the files?

[Mr Gray]

Eddie seems to have a lot alerts.....is there any case he attended where he did not alert...a new and very interesting question

[stephen25000]

Eddie seems to have a lot alerts.....is there any case he attended where he did not alert...a new and very interesting question

Not in the slightest.