Amaral and the dogs

[mercury]

Since when did forensics only test clothing for blood?
If cadaverscent can be deposited on scent pads to be used for dog training, then there are chemicals which can be tested for, aren't there?

No, not really, its complex and not that easy

[misty]

No, not really, its complex and not that easy

Was there any evidence that the clothing Eddie marked had not absorbed any non-blood deposits?

[mercury]

Was there any evidence that the clothing Eddie marked had not absorbed any non-blood deposits?

Such as?

[Alice Purjorick]

I guess when one reads the Archiving Report one can understand the broohaha about the dogs. Woof.

[misty]

Such as?

Putrescine. Dimethyl sulphide. (If you can bottle it you can test for it)
 Fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas.

[Anna]

Putrescine. Dimethyl sulphide. (If you can bottle it you can test for it)
 Fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas.

You have been doing your homework, Misty

Nylon and plastic contain :-
Putriscine 4 carbon atoms in chain between amines, which is chemically similar cadaverine 5 carbon atoms between amines ends,  as they are both Diamines with a short hydrocarbon chains with primary amines group either end


=Methane + Putriscine diamines are two  main ingredients of cadaverine

.............................................
Now add polystyrene (C8H8)n

[mercury]

Putrescine. Dimethyl sulphide. (If you can bottle it you can test for it)
 Fibres from Madeleine's pyjamas.

They are not the "scent of death" anyway

@Anna I hope you are not  saying Eddie alerted to  plastic and polystyrene now! What about egg boxes?

 

This is getting silly

Goodnight

[Anna]

They are not the "scent of death" anyway

@Anna I hope you are not  saying Eddie alerted to  plastic and polystyrene now! What about egg boxes?

 

This is getting silly

Goodnight

putrescine and cadaverine—are responsible for the characteristic odour of a decaying corpse.

How do you know what the dog could smell? It could mean nothing, but then again...........................
I haven't finished my calculations, but it is a possibility. I am sure most will not accept, but worth the research.

[misty]

You have been doing your homework, Misty

Nylon and plastic contain :-
Putriscine 4 carbon atoms in chain between amines, which is chemically similar cadaverine 5 carbon atoms between amines ends,  as they are both Diamines with a short hydrocarbon chains with primary amines group either end


=Methane + Putriscine diamines are two  main ingredients of cadaverine

.............................................
Now add polystyrene (C8H8)n

I must confess I used this article as a guide.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

This part was interesting:-
A human cadaver dog's detection skills depend greatly on its training, and the problem is that human remains are hard to come by. Trainers often use a combination of available "pseudoscents", and pigs. The problem with pseudoscents, says Mick Swindells, a retired police handler who works as a freelance trainer and handler in Blackpool, is that they represent a "snapshot" of death. As decomposition proceeds, the chemistry of the corpse evolves, causing its odour to change. "I'm trying to train a dog to find the whole video, not just a snapshot," he says. Pigs decompose in similarly to humans, and when buried they disturb the ground in a similar way.

as was this part:-
On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

                                     --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But back to the clothing. Why, if something suspicious was detected, were no further tests apparently carried out?
There may have been soil traces on the trousers, or other forensics. Why did Amaral not follow this up immediately, in light of his mantra that "every contact leaves a trace"?

[Anna]

I must confess I used this article as a guide.
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/the-csi-death-dogs-sniffing-out-the-truth-behind-the-crimescene-canines-835047.html

This part was interesting:-
A human cadaver dog's detection skills depend greatly on its training, and the problem is that human remains are hard to come by. Trainers often use a combination of available "pseudoscents", and pigs. The problem with pseudoscents, says Mick Swindells, a retired police handler who works as a freelance trainer and handler in Blackpool, is that they represent a "snapshot" of death. As decomposition proceeds, the chemistry of the corpse evolves, causing its odour to change. "I'm trying to train a dog to find the whole video, not just a snapshot," he says. Pigs decompose in similarly to humans, and when buried they disturb the ground in a similar way.

as was this part:-
On another occasion, Swindells and one of his dogs were searching a house when the dog signalled. A cache of bones was found beneath the floorboards at the spot – but they were later identified as pig. Pig carcasses are used in training cadaver dogs. But why would anybody hide a dead pig? The dating of the bones gave a clue: they had probably been buried during the Second World War, when pork was rationed and penalties for dabbling in the black market were severe.

                                     --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

But back to the clothing. Why, if something suspicious was detected, were no further tests apparently carried out?
There may have been soil traces on the trousers, or other forensics. Why did Amaral not follow this up immediately, in light of his mantra that "every contact leaves a trace"?

Methane which is a gas in polyurethane(No, not egg boxes) and putriscine are 2 separate things, but they make up the formula almost complete of cadaver scent.
It would not be as strong as the scent from a cadaver, but would be stronger if it, or items it had X contaminated were shut in a box or cupboard to allow the scent to accumulate.
I wasn't  thinking of clothing really, but it would be X contaminated.
I will hold fire with the rest of my thoughts, until I have finished triple checking.
I could be completely wrong in my calculations of course.
Then were back to True alert or false alert.

[Anna]

But back to the clothing. Why, if something suspicious was detected, were no further tests apparently carried out?
There may have been soil traces on the trousers, or other forensics. Why did Amaral not follow this up immediately, in light of his mantra that "every contact leaves a trace"?

Sorry Misty, I didn't answer this part of your post. I have no idea what Amaral was thinking.
However It would have been very difficult to pinpoint the item(s) that could possibly have been the cause of alerts.

[misty]

Sorry Misty, I didn't answer this part of your post. I have no idea what Amaral was thinking.
However It would have been very difficult to pinpoint the item(s) that could possibly have been the cause of alerts.

If Amaral suspected Kate of wearing the white top & checked trousers and being in contact with Madeleine's corpse, surely basic police training would have made him want to test the items for further forensic evidence than just cadaver odour? Unless. of course, cadaver contamination was all he expected to find? The car key was tested (no-one would have known Gerry's blood was on the key), the wheel-well casing was tested, the floor tiles were tested, the foliage in the garden was tested, Cuddlecat had already been to forensics in June - so why did he overlook further testing on the clothes & wardrobe interior? It makes no sense - unless forensic testing would have picked up something which would have been difficult to explain.

[stephen25000]

You have been doing your homework, Misty

Nylon and plastic contain :-
Putriscine 4 carbon atoms in chain between amines, which is chemically similar cadaverine 5 carbon atoms between amines ends,  as they are both Diamines with a short hydrocarbon chains with primary amines group either end


=Methane + Putriscine diamines are two  main ingredients of cadaverine

.............................................
Now add polystyrene (C8H8)n

Now which 'nylons' i.e. polyamides are you referring to ?

There is a range of compounds involved, and that doesn't include the self condensing monomer constituents.

Why add Polyphenylethene to this list Anna ?

and methane ?

[Mr Gray]

Alerts have no evidential reliability
Basically BS
Maddie may still be alive

[stephen25000]

Alerts have no evidential reliability
Basically BS
Maddie may still be alive

Where ?