Author Topic: Amaral and the dogs  (Read 844200 times)

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Offline Carew

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3930 on: August 25, 2015, 03:33:48 PM »
Are you suggesting that the jar did not contain 100 year old human bone fragments?
I don't have a problem with Eddie alerting, it's what he's alerting to & how it got there I have a problem with in Portugal - especially when the alerts are the basis of illicit financial gain.

I`m suggesting that you are happy with MG`s deployment on this occasion...........Which is what I said in my reply, wasn`t it?

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3931 on: August 25, 2015, 03:36:33 PM »
I'm not sure which video you're referring to, Misty. The only promo one that I recall was of a spot of blood being hidden for Keela while on walkies somewhere. There may have been others, though...

IIRC it's on a documentary/video about HDLG. Grime is on a beach then hides an open jar of ancient bone fragments up in the rocks for Eddie to find. Sorry - I've lost all my links, but I'll try to find the link on Google unless someone else can post it.

Offline misty

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3932 on: August 25, 2015, 03:40:59 PM »
I`m suggesting that you are happy with MG`s deployment on this occasion...........Which is what I said in my reply, wasn`t it?

It was a demonstration of Eddie successfully playing Hunt the Thimble when the viewer could see where the thimble was. I don't believe Eddie was anywhere near as competent as his US counter-parts but most of those aren't deployed for commercial purposes,

Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3933 on: August 25, 2015, 03:42:06 PM »
Thank you Carana

A number of posters make the point that the forensics were "Inconclusive" as though this adds some weight to their argument about the forensic results.

It may be interesting to debate what members here think "Inconclusive" actually means.

To kick this off, here is Vocabulary.com definition
____________________

If something's inconclusive, that means it doesn't lead to a conclusion or a resolution. Inconclusive often describes scientific results. If your data about a flu outbreak is inconclusive, then your results don't prove anything.

A good way to remember the meaning of inconclusive is to look at the root word conclusive, which means "definitive, decisive, and convincing." When you add in- — which means "not" — to the front of conclusive, you get a word that means "not definitive." When something's inconclusive, it doesn't resolve your questions and leaves room for debate. If you're a detective, the last thing you want to hear is that your evidence is inconclusive.
___________

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/inconclusive

The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Carew

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3934 on: August 25, 2015, 03:43:10 PM »
Lets turn this on its head, Carew. 

What do you think Eddie was alterting to in the Scenic, and what are your reasons?

Let`s leave it the original way up, instead.

Have a bash at a few cites to explain the original post........otherwise you could be adding to this little niggle I have about cherry-picking propaganda going on.


 "Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

 Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

 How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

 Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

 Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

 Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

 Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

 A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

 It can work for propaganda purposes, though. "

Offline Carana

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3935 on: August 25, 2015, 04:08:30 PM »
The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.

And me.

Without searching for words of less than one syllable, I'm not sure how Lowe could have explained the findings in more simple terms.

Explaining that mummy and daddy and other relatives each contribute DNA, and that a certain quantity of alleles can be expected to be shared by totally unrelated individuals, just isn't the stuff of an official report.

That email comes across to me as if he was trying to be helpful in explaining the basics to people totally unfamiliar with basic DNA.

But then Amaral managed to turn that on its head and more or less accused the FSS of fudging the results.

Some of his questions as an "expert" don't even make sense...

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3936 on: August 25, 2015, 04:14:24 PM »
Let`s leave it the original way up, instead.

Have a bash at a few cites to explain the original post........otherwise you could be adding to this little niggle I have about cherry-picking propaganda going on.


 "Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

 Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

 How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

 Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

 Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

 Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

 Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

 A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

 It can work for propaganda purposes, though. "

Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

If Martin Grime (or anyone else!) had the slightest suspicion that Eddie alerted to anything besides the key-fob, don't you think it would be a tad remiss for him/them not to say so?

As it is, the report is firm and specific about what Eddie is considered to have alerted to:

In order to confirm that the dog (EDDIE) had effectively 'marked' the car key, that was found in the map/glove pocket on the side of the driver's door, at 04h13, that key was retrieved from the car and concealed in a place far distant from the vehicle on parking level -3 of the underground car park.

Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

Where is there evidence that Eddie alerted to any clothing at all?

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3937 on: August 25, 2015, 04:19:52 PM »
And me.

Without searching for words of less than one syllable, I'm not sure how Lowe could have explained the findings in more simple terms.

Explaining that mummy and daddy and other relatives each contribute DNA, and that a certain quantity of alleles can be expected to be shared by totally unrelated individuals, just isn't the stuff of an official report.

That email comes across to me as if he was trying to be helpful in explaining the basics to people totally unfamiliar with basic DNA.

But then Amaral managed to turn that on its head and more or less accused the FSS of fudging the results.

Some of his questions as an "expert" don't even make sense...

Amaral didn't even understand that the email from John Lowe to Stuart Prior was just that, an email explaining one result from his (John Lowe's) one and only! report ....

NOT

a preliminary report ...

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3938 on: August 25, 2015, 04:28:23 PM »
I keep hoping that some of you will accept official documents, realise that Amaral was barking up the wrong tree ... and be big enough not only to throw in the towel, but to publically apologise



Would be good if some of you who were able, would make the effort ....  and like Brenda Ryan put right some of the harm that you have done.


A very strong and caring woman is Brenda Ryan.  It cant have been easy switching sides when she realised her mistakes, but she did.  Then she went out of her way to try and make amends by publishing her blog supporting Madeleine and The Mccanns. 

Can anyone remember the name of her blog?   It was very sensitive and well thought out, I would like to reread it

Which official documents did you have in mind?
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3939 on: August 25, 2015, 04:32:13 PM »
The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.

Your interpretation of the letter is what you are referring to by what I interpret from your posts

ferryman

  • Guest
Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3940 on: August 25, 2015, 04:38:14 PM »
Which official documents did you have in mind?

Not sure about Sadie, but I would cite: the archiving dispatch, final PJ report, reports of Mark Harrison, the reports of Martin Grime (where he makes plain that uncorroborated alerts have no evidential value) and the report of PJ Inspector Dias where he analysed mobile phone traffic (and found no blame) and questioned why Eddie returned several times to  spots he (finally!) alerted to ...

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3941 on: August 25, 2015, 04:41:07 PM »
The letter from Lowe to Prior in the archiving process is good enough for me.

It may be good enough for you but that is neither here nor their....
First thing is that the email seems to be a direct response to the questions.....could this be Maddie's DNA....so the email is being read out of context

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3942 on: August 25, 2015, 04:46:34 PM »
Let`s leave it the original way up, instead.

Have a bash at a few cites to explain the original post........otherwise you could be adding to this little niggle I have about cherry-picking propaganda going on.


 "Well, having passed the buck from posters on to scientific studies, reports and Mr Grime himself, perhaps you could point out where those expert works have addressed themselves specifically to points made about this case rather than simply applied in a cherry-picked disparate way by posters?

 Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

 How do the Clever Hans / handler cuing studies explain that?

 Does Mr Grime in his report,  put it down to Eddie not being in "work-mode" at the time?

 Did the dog "unlearn" certain behaviours to suit those occasions when an alert to a multitude of contaminant triggers would make no sense to posters?

 Did handler cuing influence the alert to a boys t-shirt or does the cherry picking choose another convenient  scientific study because handler expectation doesn`t cover that one?

 Where does MG or any expert state that an alert by Eddie to a key fob rules out any possibility that there was any other cadaver contaminant source ever present in the hire car ?

 A source can be found to quote away any point and sounds impressive but when applied to a whole case it can fall apart.

 It can work for propaganda purposes, though. "

We have all seen the reports. We have all seen Levy's videos.  So you have two possibilities here.  Either you think that Grime /Eddie were incompetent and missed the cadaver scent

or somewhere there is some secret report with cadaver alerts and forensic finds in the car. Held back for some terribly secret purpose. 

Either way I cannot help. Sorry.

Sorry.

Offline Carew

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3943 on: August 25, 2015, 04:58:21 PM »
We have all seen the reports. We have all seen Levy's videos.  So you have two possibilities here.  Either you think that Grime /Eddie were incompetent and missed the cadaver scent

or somewhere there is some secret report with cadaver alerts and forensic finds in the car. Held back for some terribly secret purpose. 

Either way I cannot help. Sorry.

Sorry.

Thankyou for addressing the forensic finds in the car.

Any help with the rest of the questions in the whole post?

The car was just one issue with the dog searches, but not to worry.


Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: Amaral and the dogs
« Reply #3944 on: August 25, 2015, 05:07:12 PM »
Where for instance does the report covering mop-related residual cross contamination from decayed but survived particles of blood, toenails saliva etc., explain the absence of alerts in the 5A bathroom, despite Eddie being called / encouraged back and around with a certain amount of "tapping" at certain areas, too?

I would imagine and explanation is that the bathroom had been cleaned.