Amaral and the dogs

[stephen25000]

@ Stephen

if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

Now remind me Carana, what does the judgement state in terms of proven facts ?

[ferryman]

I think I see what the issue is...

"Undisputed facts" in the judgement refers to untested statements of fact that can be found in the police files in some form or other. The judge's job was not to judge what the dogs were actually alerting to (the remit of a criminal court if the McCanns had been charged), but to ascertain the degree to which Amaral had sourced his material from the files.

In other words, assertions no one has bothered to dispute distinct from "proven facts"

Would that be the nuance?

[Eleanor]

You are heading the same way again.  You have been warned.  All of you.

[Anna]

Back to the dogs now please.


Even if, hypothetically, it were accepted that Gerald and Kate McCann could be responsible for the death of the child, always be left to explain how, where, when, with what means, with the help of who and where released from your body in the strict timeline that, therefore, would have laid out. Moreover, their daily routine until May 3 shall confine it to the narrow limits of the village "Ocean Club" and the beach is adjacent to it, knowing OSM surrounding land and, in addition to English friends with them summering there had not friends or contacts known in Portugal. (...)
were carried out tests and analyzes in two of the most prestigious and accredited institutions for that purpose - National Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Science Service laboratory British - whose final results not positively valued the collected traces, nor corroborate the canine markings. (...)
District of Lisbon
Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15
Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html

[Mr Gray]

FROM THE COURT FILES.

based on what evidence is this a proved fact...there is none

[Carana]

Back to the dogs now please.


Even if, hypothetically, it were accepted that Gerald and Kate McCann could be responsible for the death of the child, always be left to explain how, where, when, with what means, with the help of who and where released from your body in the strict timeline that, therefore, would have laid out. Moreover, their daily routine until May 3 shall confine it to the narrow limits of the village "Ocean Club" and the beach is adjacent to it, knowing OSM surrounding land and, in addition to English friends with them summering there had not friends or contacts known in Portugal. (...)
were carried out tests and analyzes in two of the most prestigious and accredited institutions for that purpose - National Institute of Legal Medicine and Forensic Science Service laboratory British - whose final results not positively valued the collected traces, nor corroborate the canine markings. (...)
District of Lisbon
Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15
Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id505.html

Thanks, Anna. That's the bottom line on the dog issue. The judge acknowledged that the TdeA interim report, Grime / Harrison's reports, etc., did in fact exist in the police files, but she also went through the archiving despatch, which had considered the totality of information, not just cherry-picked snippets.

Did the dogs alert? Yes. Do statements in the police files attest to that? Yes. Do the statements refer to opinions about alerts to blood or cadaver scent? Yes. Were his assertions borne out by the prosecutor reviewing the entire dossier, including the forensic results? No.

That's it...

[Carana]

I can see the questions above, but I don't know how to answer them without getting into trouble with Eleanorannabartfast for being off topic.

[Brietta]

Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose

• Scientists played a version of the cup and ball game with 500 pet dogs
• The animals were asked to find a treat they had seen hidden in a cup
• Most failed to find the snack as they used memories instead of their nose
• It suggests dogs do not rely on sense of smell as much as was thought

By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz

[Alice Purjorick]

Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose

• Scientists played a version of the cup and ball game with 500 pet dogs
• The animals were asked to find a treat they had seen hidden in a cup
• Most failed to find the snack as they used memories instead of their nose
• It suggests dogs do not rely on sense of smell as much as was thought

By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz

It would have been more interesting had "working" dogs been used in "work mode" and "doss mode" and tabulated along with the pet pooches used as the control.
I doubt we will ever see that though, so we are back to you say tomayto I say tomarto.

[G-Unit]

Thought this was interesting although the dogs used in the study were 'civilians' ... but I think it illustrates that dogs use many more senses than humans are aware of.
Just Martin Grime's opinion of Eddie's behaviour might have been sufficient to communicate itself to the dog which was probably as adept at reading 'body language' as he was at everything else.



Why a dog's sense of smell is overrated: Canines use their MEMORY to find buried bones rather than following their nose

• Scientists played a version of the cup and ball game with 500 pet dogs
• The animals were asked to find a treat they had seen hidden in a cup
• Most failed to find the snack as they used memories instead of their nose
• It suggests dogs do not rely on sense of smell as much as was thought

By FIONA MACRAE, SCIENCE EDITOR FOR THE DAILY MAIL
PUBLISHED: 19:09, 16 September 2015 | UPDATED: 21:23, 16 September 2015

You may think Fido would use his acute sense of smell to sniff out a long-buried bone.
In fact, a dog relies on its memory more than its nose to find hidden treats, according to new research.
The discovery was made by US scientists who analysed the results of a game played by 500 pet dogs from around the world.

Each dog watched as its owner placed two cup upside down in front of them, then placed a treat under one of the cups.

The dog's eyes were then covered and the food moved to the second cup.

When the dog was able to see again, it was called over by its owner.
If the pooch was using their sense of smell to find the food, it should have headed for the correct cup.

However, most got it wrong, simply running towards where they had last seen the food.
Researcher Evan MacLean, of Duke University in North Carolina, said: 'Most people think dogs use their sense of smell for everything.

'But actually dogs use a whole range of senses when solving problems.'

Dr MacLean, who studies almost all animals other than cats, said: 'It is hard for me to think of a situation where having a good memory would not be an advantage.
'Memory is important for any sort of planning and understanding patterns and for making predictions about the world.
'Memory is crucial for all of that for any animal.'

The study, which used the internet to recruit and test dogs in their own homes, also investigated the phenomenon of contagious yawning.
Some research has shown that just as one person often seems to yawn after someone else yawns, a dog can 'catch' its owner's yawns.
Dr MacLean said: 'The idea is that it is a very primitive form of empathy.
'The dog is not necessarily feeling bad because its owner is feeling bad but it is tuning into their emotional state in its own way.'

Dr MacLean's study, published in the journal Public Library of Science One, did not find any evidence of the phenomenon.
But it did find that different dogs have different strengths.

Some dogs had a better memory, others were better at taking their master's perspective or at communicating.

Co-researcher Brian Hare said: 'Most people think of intelligence as a glass that is more or less full.
'But intelligence is more like ice cream. Everybody has different flavours.
'Being good at one thing doesn't mean you'll be good at everything else.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-3237289/Why-dog-s-sense-smell-overrated-Canines-use-MEMORY-buried-bones-following-nose.html#ixzz3lzlFDRiz

Having kept pet dogs for years my opinion is that the researchers neglected to allow for the fact that dogs don't lie. Consequently they don't expect their owners to lie or to trick them. If the trick was done once the trusting dog naturally headed for the place it thought the food was to be found. If the trick was played more than once it would gradually have dawned on the dog that the food wasn't where it thought it was, and it would have begun to search for it.

I have seen the exact trick played by my son on our present dog. The first time he showed the dog his two open hands, one with a treat in it. He then put his hands behind his back and changed the treat to the other hand. When he brought his closed hands back to the front the dog went to the hand she believed had the treat, and was surprised when he opened his hand and the treat has gone. She has now played the game a lot and understands it. She makes no assumptions now and uses her nose to sniff each hand before deciding where the treat is. She finds it every time.

One of our children's games was to yawn around our dog in the 70's until she yawned too.

Scientists seem to be far behind dog owners when it comes to understanding these animals.

[Benice]

@ Stephen

if I had given a statement to the police that you microwaved puppies for breakfast and "Expert A" wrote a book drawing on that statement, the judge would still have listed that as an "undisputed fact" for the purposes of the civil trial.

It doesn't mean that you do actually engage in such practices, just that an untested statement in the police files to that effect does in fact exist.

Thanks for that Carana.    A perfect - and 'easy to understand' explanation of the legal position imo.

[Alice Purjorick]

snipped from the document linked by Stephen 25000.

PROVED FACTS
Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :
1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
[/i]

When is an undisputed fact not an undisputed fact? I can find no caveat for this term in the document linked so presumably it can be taken as a strict definition?.
Was the term [undisputed fact] put in the document just for laugh or because the author believed it or because the author was yet another person who failed to understand the situation as well as the posters on here?  &%+((£
 

[Mr Gray]

snipped from the document linked by Stephen 25000.

PROVED FACTS
Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :
1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
[/i]

When is an undisputed fact not an undisputed fact? I can find no caveat for this term in the document linked so presumably it can be taken as a strict definition?.
Was the term [undisputed fact] put in the document just for laugh or because the author believed it or because the author was yet another person who failed to understand the situation as well as the posters on here?  &%+((£

so you believe it as well...great...two sceptics who are wrong...

so what does it mean in English...the dog alerted to cadaver...what does that actually mean because it makes no sense

[Carana]

snipped from the document linked by Stephen 25000.

PROVED FACTS
Taking into account the matter considered undisputed in the selection of facts and the decision handed down in due course after producing the matter of evidence and discussing the case, the following facts are demonstrated :
1. The claimants KM and GM are married to each other

2. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann was born on the 12.05.2003 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

3. The claimant Sean McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the son of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

4. The claimant Amelie McCann was born on the 01.02.2005 and is the daughter of the claimants Kate and Gerry McCann

5. The claimant Madeleine Beth McCann has been missing since the 3rd of May of 2007, and the criminal investigation n. 201/07.0GALGS was open by the Public Prosecutor of the Republic for the Portimao District.

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].
[/i]

When is an undisputed fact not an undisputed fact? I can find no caveat for this term in the document linked so presumably it can be taken as a strict definition?.
Was the term [undisputed fact] put in the document just for laugh or because the author believed it or because the author was yet another person who failed to understand the situation as well as the posters on here?  &%+((£

What do "alinea AR" and "alinea AS" actually state?

[Mr Gray]

As a reminder.........

6. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs “Eddie” and “Keela” detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts].

http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/v01.htm


UNDISPUTED FACTS.

so what does alinea AS and Alinea AR signify