Amaral and the dogs

[Anna]

Full court Judgement:- found here.......

https://inforrm.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/mccanns-v-amaral-judgment.pdf

...............................................

Excerpt.

6. Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected traces of blood odors

and human corpse in apartment 5a of the Ocean Club [point AR) of the facts

based].

7. Dogs of the British police "Eddie" and "Keela" detected odors brands

District of Lisbon

Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15

Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa

Phone: 213846400 Fax: 213874221 Mail: lisboa.centralcivel@tribunais.org.pt

Proc.Nº 1454 / 09.5TVLSB

Bottom line:-

Excerpt


Tests and analyzes were carried out in two of the most prestigious institutions and
accredited for that purpose - National Institute of Legal Medicine and the British laboratory
Forensic Science Service - Final results not positively valued the
traces gathered, nor corroborate the canine markings. (...)
District of Lisbon
Lisbon - Inst. Central - 1st Civil Chamber - J15
Palace of Justice, Border Marquis Street - 1098-001 Lisboa
Phone: 213846400 Fax: 213874221 Mail: lisboa.centralcivel@tribunais.org.pt
Proc.Nº 1454 / 09.5TVLSB


https://inforrm.files.wordpress.com/2015/05/mccanns-v-amaral-judgment.pdf

[stephen25000]

"6. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]."

[Anna]

Deleting shortly because this is boring me half to death.

Sorry. Done it again.

It is getting boring...I agree

[Brietta]

With the possible exception they are alerting to what they have been trained to alert to.
From the article you linked:
"Dogs are better at the job than any "electronic nose" would be, Dr Williams pointed out".

Cherry picking the bits which fit and ignoring the bits which don't fit really adds nothing at all to the debate. 

Dr Williams and most other researchers have explained exactly the circumstances in which dogs are "better" or certainly the more appropriate tool to be used from the tool box.

Quote
She said: "They have distinct advantages over e-noses. They can go into dangerous environments and they can assess and adjust their behaviour according to the situation they're in.
"We hope this research combined with training will lead to greater success in finding bodies." end Quote
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

Researcher Dr Anna Williams also mentioned that in the different stages of decomposition and that it gets really smelly when the "bacteria get involved" producing other "death compounds" ...

• "indole, reeks "very strongly" of faeces"
• "trimethylamine, produces a powerful fishy pong"
• "while others smell of paint thinner and nail varnish remover"

The "smell of death" isn't really as cut and dried as some would have us believe ... or why are Universities and scientists continuing researching and studying all aspects of human decomposition for as many reasons as there are studies?

[Mr Gray]

 

Really ?

Then prove me wrong.

'indisputable facts'.

I have proved you wrong
Residual scent cannot be proved... It's as simple as that

[Alice Purjorick]

Cherry picking the bits which fit and ignoring the bits which don't fit really adds nothing at all to the debate. 

Dr Williams and most other researchers have explained exactly the circumstances in which dogs are "better" or certainly the more appropriate tool to be used from the tool box.

Quote
She said: "They have distinct advantages over e-noses. They can go into dangerous environments and they can assess and adjust their behaviour according to the situation they're in.
"We hope this research combined with training will lead to greater success in finding bodies." end Quote
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

Researcher Dr Anna Williams also mentioned that in the different stages of decomposition and that it gets really smelly when the "bacteria get involved" producing other "death compounds" ...

• "indole, reeks "very strongly" of faeces"
• "trimethylamine, produces a powerful fishy pong"
• "while others smell of paint thinner and nail varnish remover"

The "smell of death" isn't really as cut and dried as some would have us believe ... or why are Universities and scientists continuing researching and studying all aspects of human decomposition for as many reasons as there are studies?

Just following normal forum practice.
I notice you cherry picked the bit of my post you wished to respond to and ignored the first part.

[stephen25000]

Just following normal forum practice.
I notice you cherry picked the bit of my post you wished to respond to and ignored the first part.

Indeed.

Also, it is not 'indole', since there are a group of indoles.

The one giving rise to the main smell in faeces and in cadavers is 3-Methyl Indole/Skatole.

The concentrations of Trimethylamine would increase over time. At the start the the concentrations would be very low in tissues and organs.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11596-008-0603-x#page-1

As  to the other substances mentioned. 'paint thinner and nail varnish remover' rather imprecise terms I might add, would hardly be easy to detect early on.

[Mr Gray]

"6. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in the apartment 5A, Ocean Club [alínea AR) of the undisputed facts].

7. The British police dogs "Eddie" and "Keela" detected human blood and cadaver in a vehicle rented by the claimants after the disappearance of MMC [alínea AS) of the undisputed facts]."

just looking at the original Portuguese....it doesn't say that...it's a poor translation

[Brietta]

Just following normal forum practice.
I notice you cherry picked the bit of my post you wished to respond to and ignored the first part.

I rather imagine that Dr Anna William's sentence you quote may have referred more to the appropriate use of dogs in the field rather than the gas chromatography machine she used in her research ... and not as implied that the dogs were 'better'.
It could be argued if one was so inclined, that one is an unquantifiable variable and the other the opposite ... but it is more interesting perhaps to note the ignored scientific findings reflecting much of the discussion which has taken place on the McCann boards over the years.

Quite obviously in working dog circles much of what is now the subject of scientific study and proof was already known to those in law enforcement and dog handlers.
Hence the absolute necessity for corroboration of any dog alerts.

That is the part of the equation absolutely misunderstood by Mr Amaral; he assumed that the indicator of the dog alert equated with authentication and gave the proof to enable him to slap arguido status on the Drs McCann.

We know a lot better now than most in 2007 could (not forgetting Martin Grime's caveat in his statements) due to the studies which have taken place in the intervening period ~ that he was entirely wrong without forensic corroboration.

Dr Williams also mentioned the odour of faeces ~ fishy pong ~ paint thinner and nail varnish remover.  We have had the endless bad jokes and smileys about sea bass and dirty nappies ... new ones will perhaps require to be manufactured to support her findings about holidaymakers displaying naked toes in flip flops using nail varnish remover and whether or not the apartment required redecoration (paint thinner) after the assault it had recieved with dragons blood sufficient to interfere with forensics.

Not forgetting that as well as pig based fertiliser ... there is now the added component of someone walking across freshly mown grass with which to contend ... the difficulty being that all are backed with scientific papers and documented proof.

[Brietta]

Indeed.

Also, it is not 'indole', since there are a group of indoles.

The one giving rise to the main smell in faeces and in cadavers is 3-Methyl Indole/Skatole.

The concentrations of Trimethylamine would increase over time. At the start the the concentrations would be very low in tissues and organs.

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007%2Fs11596-008-0603-x#page-1

As  to the other substances mentioned. 'paint thinner and nail varnish remover' rather imprecise terms I might add, would hardly be easy to detect early on.

It is the point that the substances mentioned replicate the components of the "scent of death" to which cadaver dogs are trained to respond.

 

"In the first few days the body is going through a process of autolysis, which is basically the self-digestion of cells."
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/


Do we know if the process of autolysis described by Dr Anna Williams was part of Eddie's trained response?

[stephen25000]

It is the point that the substances mentioned replicate the components of the "scent of death" to which cadaver dogs are trained to respond.

 

"In the first few days the body is going through a process of autolysis, which is basically the self-digestion of cells."
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/


Do we know if the process of autolysis described by Dr Anna Williams was part of Eddie's trained response?

I read that earlier.

and funnily enough, I do know some Chemistry.

Then to your last question, I suggest you contact Mr. Grime.

[pathfinder73]

What is it you fail to understand about scientific studies which have identified that new mown grass emits the same chemical as that given off by a fresh cadaver?
http://nextinform.com/the-summery-whiff-of-freshly-cut-grass-is-also-the-smell-of-death-same-chemical-is-given-off-by-fresh-cadavers-study-reveals/

It is not an off the cuff opinion formulated by self appointed 'experts' on internet fora in conjunction with their own prejudice and that of others. 

It is the result of scientific research undertaken to understand and ascertain exactly what the cadaver dog can smell at various stages of decomposition and as a result how best to improve the training of cadaver dogs.
http://www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/news/national/13651311.Decomposing_bodies_have_cut_grass_accent/

I think the problem some people may have with the continuing scientific research leading to better understanding is that it upsets their singular personal view of an event encapsulated in one small moment in time.

One which they were told at the time had no evidential value ... the exact reasons for which have become clearer as a result of various scientific studies.

The latest of which are categorical in that ...

• dogs sometimes ignore what they are capable of smelling for what they remember
• yaaawn ... dogs are capable of succumbing to outside influences
• new mown grass gives off the same chemicals that a fresh cadaver emits

If you have a problem with the results of the research ... perhaps you will be able to come up with similar relevant studies to substantiate your point of view and bring the information to the forum.

There isn't a lawn at apartment 5A!

[misty]

There isn't a lawn at apartment 5A!

But there are grassy areas within OC, namely the children's play area. Fresh grass cuttings are easily transported on people's shoes.

[G-Unit]

There isn't a lawn at apartment 5A!

I look forward to the next time our police dog handlers bring out their dogs and stop in amazement as the dogs alert madly all over the suspect's lawn. Priceless! 

[misty]

I look forward to the next time our police dog handlers bring out their dogs and stop in amazement as the dogs alert madly all over the suspect's lawn. Priceless! 

It only happens if you've sprinkled your lawn with peat-based MiracleGro.