Author Topic: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit  (Read 36219 times)

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Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #60 on: February 23, 2020, 05:06:19 PM »
My, my your hatred of Corbyn really is visceral.

There were several elements to Labour’s loss, one of them certainly was the smearing of Corbyn by the rightwing media, however that was only one element.
There was no visceral hate in my post.  I did not stoop to calling Corbyn an imbecile or Nazi.  So I was right - you do hold the media accountable for Labour’s loss.  What else?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #61 on: February 23, 2020, 05:20:14 PM »
Your (soon to be) new leader warns against painting Boris and the Tories as clowns in today’s Observer.  It’s perhaps time you upped your game in the debating stakes or at least provided a little consistency:  imbeciles or Nazis?  I don’t really think they can be both.  You might want to consider the possibility that they are actually at neither end of these extremes, which would certainly imo be the less childish approach.

You can’t be an imbecile and a Nazis ? Have you seen an EDL member being interviewed?

Right to the end, when Jewish people were being torn from their families and communities, Hitler still had huge support throughout the country....support that enabled him in his horrendous enterprise....but it didn’t start there and much of what Johnson and his goon squad is doing now is straight out of the Goebels A-Z.

I find it hilariously ironic though that knowing what I know of Corbyn and you, Corbyn would be the first to risk his own freedom to protect those in peril while, depressingly, you’d simply stand on the sidelines, denying anything was happening at all.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 05:46:02 PM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #62 on: February 23, 2020, 05:22:26 PM »
There was no visceral hate in my post.  I did not stoop to calling Corbyn an imbecile or Nazi.  So I was right - you do hold the media accountable for Labour’s loss.  What else?

You did not call Corbyn an imbecile or Nazi because he is neither and as I have said, my opinion has been expressed many times already.....search it out if you are really that desperate to know.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #63 on: February 23, 2020, 05:30:03 PM »
Well let’s see, you have told us that the statement “the worst act of national self-harm” from a Remain commentator is the truth.  So, if it is not a lie then there will be proof of its veracity.  Please now provide proof of all the harm that we as a nation have suffered since we left the EU.

So when did we leave the EU.....ah yes three weeks ago.

Whether it was “ the worst act of national self-harm” is still to be seen....£350 million for the NHS and a Turkish invasion are proven lies, lies perpetrated by Johnson and his band of rightwing imbeciles.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2020, 05:45:14 PM by Faithlilly »
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #64 on: February 23, 2020, 06:18:17 PM »
You can’t be an imbecile and a Nazis ? Have you seen an EDL member being interviewed?

Right to the end, when Jewish people were being torn from their families and communities, Hitler still had huge support throughout the country....support that enabled him in his horrendous enterprise....but it didn’t start there and much of what Johnson and his goon squad is doing now is straight out of the Goebels A-Z.

I find it hilariously ironic though that knowing what I know of Corbyn and you, Corbyn would be the first to risk his own freedom to protect those in peril while, depressingly, you’d simply stand on the sidelines, denying anything was happening at all.
Your political arguments remind me alot of Rick out of the Young Ones.  Ranty, immature and not very sophisticated.   When you’ve stopped comparing everyone you don’t like with the Nazis then we can have a proper discussion, until then don’t expect me to take anything you say very seriously.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #65 on: February 23, 2020, 06:24:52 PM »
So when did we leave the EU.....ah yes three weeks ago.

Whether it was “ the worst act of national self-harm” is still to be seen....£350 million for the NHS and a Turkish invasion are proven lies, lies perpetrated by Johnson and his band of rightwing imbeciles.
Exactly.  So we don’t know if Brexit will prove to be a good thing or a bad thing yet.  It’s too soon to be claiming that Remain had “The Truth” on their side, therefore (setting aside all propaganda from both camps) once again I ask you:

 If Remain had won the Referendum 52 to 48 would you consider that it was the will of the British people or would you have supported the Leave side’s right to push through Brexit regardless?
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #66 on: February 23, 2020, 06:31:39 PM »
Your political arguments remind me alot of Rick out of the Young Ones.  Ranty, immature and not very sophisticated.   When you’ve stopped comparing everyone you don’t like with the Nazis then we can have a proper discussion, until then don’t expect me to take anything you say very seriously.

Which is hilarious coming from someone who would argue black was white just to keep me interested.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #67 on: February 23, 2020, 06:37:44 PM »
Exactly.  So we don’t know if Brexit will prove to be a good thing or a bad thing yet.  It’s too soon to be claiming that Remain had “The Truth” on their side, therefore (setting aside all propaganda from both camps) once again I ask you:

 If Remain had won the Referendum 52 to 48 would you consider that it was the will of the British people or would you have supported the Leave side’s right to push through Brexit regardless?

Your words ‘ Both sides had an agenda and pushed their versions of the truth. ‘ Was £350 million for the NHS the truth or a lie ? Was the threat that we’d be swarmed by Turkish immigrants the truth or a lie ?

Do you have dementia as I’ve already answered your question?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #68 on: February 23, 2020, 06:41:52 PM »
Your words ‘ Both sides had an agenda and pushed their versions of the truth. ‘ Was £350 million for the NHS the truth or a lie ? Was the threat that we’d be swarmed by Turkish immigrants the truth or a lie ?

Do you have dementia as I’ve already answered your question?
No, I don’t have dementia, and that is why I wrote “once again I ask you”.  You claimed that Remain had truth on their side and that meant you could indulge in double standards, ie: the double standard that would have permitted you to claim a winning vote for Remain was “the Will of The People” and deny Leave a second referendum.  You then admitted that the truth is we don’t know what the truth is with regard to Brexit, thus shooting your argument in the foot.     You have proven your hypocrisy with your answers and there is nothing more that needs to be asked or answered now, many thanks.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #69 on: February 23, 2020, 06:46:22 PM »
Which is hilarious coming from someone who would argue black was white just to keep me interested.
“ Branding people you don't like ‘Nazis’ is infantile and dangerous.”
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/06/07/everyones-turning-into-rick-from-the-young-ones/
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #70 on: February 23, 2020, 10:30:09 PM »
No, I don’t have dementia, and that is why I wrote “once again I ask you”.  You claimed that Remain had truth on their side and that meant you could indulge in double standards, ie: the double standard that would have permitted you to claim a winning vote for Remain was “the Will of The People” and deny Leave a second referendum.  You then admitted that the truth is we don’t know what the truth is with regard to Brexit, thus shooting your argument in the foot.     You have proven your hypocrisy with your answers and there is nothing more that needs to be asked or answered now, many thanks.


My, my you really are tying yourself up into knots. The Remain campaign made no false claims as far as I know but as you say that both sides brought their own ‘spin’ ( I paraphrase you ) to things I look forward to you detailing the lies the Remain campaign propagated. Of course I have given you two of the most blatant of the Leave campaign...£350 million for the NHS and that we’d be swamped by Turkish immigrants...there was of course Gove’s ‘the easiest trade deal ever’ but although we can watch the havoc Brexit will bring played out before our eyes, the shambles of an immigration policy for one...one thing we can be sure of was if Remain had won it would have won fairly with people knowing what they were voting for instead of the morass of lies that lead us to Brexit.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #71 on: February 23, 2020, 10:41:40 PM »
“ Branding people you don't like ‘Nazis’ is infantile and dangerous.”
https://www.spiked-online.com/2019/06/07/everyones-turning-into-rick-from-the-young-ones/

That is so funny....even your insults were written by someone else.

 Isn’t Spiked partly funded by the Charles Koch Foundation?

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/12/04/spiked-lm-dark-money-koch-brothers
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #72 on: February 23, 2020, 11:16:26 PM »

My, my you really are tying yourself up into knots. The Remain campaign made no false claims as far as I know but as you say that both sides brought their own ‘spin’ ( I paraphrase you ) to things I look forward to you detailing the lies the Remain campaign propagated. Of course I have given you two of the most blatant of the Leave campaign...£350 million for the NHS and that we’d be swamped by Turkish immigrants...there was of course Gove’s ‘the easiest trade deal ever’ but although we can watch the havoc Brexit will bring played out before our eyes, the shambles of an immigration policy for one...one thing we can be sure of was if Remain had won it would have won fairly with people knowing what they were voting for instead of the morass of lies that lead us to Brexit.
No knot-tying here my dear.  You really are deluding yourself if you truly believe there was no misinformation pumped out by the Remain side.  I voted Remain remember but I am not sufficiently blinkered or suffering from such selective memory as to have forgotten some of the scare stories and lies (yes, lies) we were told would occur if the Leave vote won.  Osborne threatened an emergency budget for one, to take place as a direct result of a Leave win.  We were also told the country would be plummeted into a recession and 3 million jobs would be lost.  Neither of these things have occurred.  Can you really be so naive as to believe that there was no misinformation or propaganda on the Remain side, that Cameron was not talking about World War III, that Juncker was not talking about the complete collapse of Western civilization if the Leave vote won?  I don’t know a single solitary person who voted leave simply in the belief that £350 million would be ploughed into the NHS or the threat of millions of Turks turning up on the doorstep.  It was way more emotive than that for the Leavers I’ve spoken to.  It was a belief that we had forfeited our sovereignty to the EU and a general dislike of EU rules, regulations and the “unelected bureaucrats telling us how to run our country” that were the reasons I heard from people I talked to about it.  Your attitude that the  Remain campaign was “The Truth” and the Leave campaign was “All Lies” is superior, self-righteous, simplistic and just plain wrong IMO.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline Venturi Swirl

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #73 on: February 23, 2020, 11:19:13 PM »
That is so funny....even your insults were written by someone else.

 Isn’t Spiked partly funded by the Charles Koch Foundation?

https://www.desmog.co.uk/2018/12/04/spiked-lm-dark-money-koch-brothers
I’ve no idea, if it was does that make the comment invalid?  I had the thought independently anyway, I just googled “Rick Young Ones and Nazis” and was amused to discover I wasn’t the only person who thought that way.
"Surely the fact that their accounts were different reinforces their veracity rather than diminishes it? If they had colluded in protecting ........ surely all of their accounts would be the same?" - Faithlilly

Offline faithlilly

Re: The Boris Bounce and all the Benefits of Brexit
« Reply #74 on: February 23, 2020, 11:51:39 PM »
No knot-tying here my dear.  You really are deluding yourself if you truly believe there was no misinformation pumped out by the Remain side.  I voted Remain remember but I am not sufficiently blinkered or suffering from such selective memory as to have forgotten some of the scare stories and lies (yes, lies) we were told would occur if the Leave vote won.  Osborne threatened an emergency budget for one, to take place as a direct result of a Leave win.  We were also told the country would be plummeted into a recession and 3 million jobs would be lost.  Neither of these things have occurred.  Can you really be so naive as to believe that there was no misinformation or propaganda on the Remain side, that Cameron was not talking about World War III, that Juncker was not talking about the complete collapse of Western civilization if the Leave vote won?  I don’t know a single solitary person who voted leave simply in the belief that £350 million would be ploughed into the NHS or the threat of millions of Turks turning up on the doorstep.  It was way more emotive than that for the Leavers I’ve spoken to.  It was a belief that we had forfeited our sovereignty to the EU and a general dislike of EU rules, regulations and the “unelected bureaucrats telling us how to run our country” that were the reasons I heard from people I talked to about it.  Your attitude that the  Remain campaign was “The Truth” and the Leave campaign was “All Lies” is superior, self-righteous, simplistic and just plain wrong IMO.

The belief that ‘ we had forfeited our sovereignty blah blah blah ‘ was yet more lies peddled to the British public, who, still in mourning for the death of their empire, were easy fodder for the sneering Johnson and his ilk.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/uk/2016/07/boris-johnson-peddled-absurd-eu-myths-and-our-disgraceful-press-followed-his

The pound plummeted, the Prime Minister resigned, stock markets plunged and the UK began to unravel, as did the post-1945 world order. Donald Trump, Vladimir Putin, Marine Le Pen and Isis were celebrating the Brexit vote but that didn’t stop our disgraceful national press from crowing. “Take a bow, Britain!” the Daily Mail declared. “So long, farewell, auf Wiedersehen, ADIEU”, the Sun quipped in a headline. The Daily Telegraph proclaimed the “birth of a new Britain”.

They and others – the Express, the Morning Star, several of the Sunday papers – were claiming victory: a victory achieved after a relentless campaign of lies and Soviet-style propaganda about the European Union that long pre-dated the referendum. Indeed, it was a campaign that began in the late 1980s and early 1990s, when Boris Johnson, who had been fired by the Times for making up a quotation, was the Telegraph’s correspondent in Brussels.


Johnson did not invent Euroscepticism but he took it to new levels. A brilliant caricaturist, he made his name by mocking, lampooning and ridiculing the EU. He wrote stories headlined “Brussels recruits sniffers to ensure that Euro-manure smells the same”, “Threat to British pink sausages” and “Snails are fish, says EU”. He wrote about plans to standardise condom sizes and ban prawn cocktail flavour crisps. He set up Jacques Delors, who was then the European Commission president, as a bogeyman and claimed credit for persuading Denmark to reject the Maastricht Treaty in 1992 with a Sunday Telegraph splash – “Delors plan to rule Europe” – that was seized on by the Nej campaign.


To Johnson, it was all a bit of a jape. “ was sort of chucking these rocks over the garden wall and I listened to this amazing crash from the greenhouse next door over in England as everything I wrote from Brussels was having this amazing, explosive ­effect on the Tory party – and it really gave me this, I suppose, rather weird sense of power,” he told the BBC years later.

That many of Johnson’s stories bore scant relation to the truth did not matter. They were colourful and fun. The Telegraph and right-wing Tories loved them. So did other Fleet Street editors, who found the standard Brussels fare tedious and began to press their own correspondents to follow suit. I know this because I became the Brussels correspondent of the Times in 1999 and suffered the consequences.


Soon, a Europe of scheming bureaucrats plotting to rob Britain of its ancient liberties, or British prime ministers fighting gallant rearguard actions against an increasingly powerful superstate, or absurd directives on banana shapes, became the only narratives that many papers were interested in. They were narratives that exploited our innate nationalism, distrust of foreigners and sense of superiority. They were narratives so strong that our political leaders mostly chose to play along with them.

The EU is arrogant, bureaucratic, wasteful and meddlesome. It desperately needs reforming. But post-Boris, its great achievements – cementing peace, uniting the continent, creating the world’s largest single market, enabling its citizens to travel and live anywhere they choose, busting mono­polies, improving the environment – have gone largely unreported. Similarly ignored is that Britain has many natural allies in Europe and has enjoyed some significant successes: competition policy, free trade, eastward enlargement. The French now regard the EU as a plot to impose Anglo-Saxon economics on the continent. True, we lost the argument on the euro and the Schengen Agreement, but we won opt-outs.

With a few honourable exceptions – such as the Financial Times, the Times and the Guardian – the referendum coverage was merely a supercharged version of what had gone before. It was led by the biggest broadsheet (the Telegraph), the biggest mid-­market paper (the Mail) and the biggest tabloid (the Sun). And it was based on myths: that we pay £350m a week to Brussels, that we can continue to enjoy access to the single market without freedom of movement, that millions of Turks are heading our way because their country is about to join the EU, that immigrants are destroying the NHS rather than keeping it going.

The coverage was designed to inflame xenophobia and our worst “Little England” instincts. Loughborough University found that 82 per cent of all referendum stories, adjusted for newspaper circulations, were negative. The conventional wisdom is that newspapers don’t matter any more but they do when just 635,000 votes for Remain ­instead of Leave would have averted this national catastrophe. They do when the press is a primary source of information for millions of Brits. They do when most of our papers have relentlessly portrayed the EU as the monster of Johnson’s fertile imagination, not just for a few months, but for more than two decades.

The referendum was a chance for our national press, particularly the tabloid press, to restore its standing after the phone-hacking scandal and to prove its continuing worth to the British people. Sadly, most newspapers chose wilfully to deceive, mislead and inflame. They decided to follow Johnson’s lead by peddling lies and phoney patriotism. They helped him to hoodwink the millions of poorer, less-educated Britons – those who will be the first to suffer from Brexit’s consequences – into voting against their own interests.

Johnson campaigned against a myth of his own creation, with the result that a mendacious pundit, one who achieved prominence by writing entertaining but dangerous nonsense, is the odds-on favourite to be our next prime minister.


Martin Fletcher is a former foreign editor of the Times



Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?