Author Topic: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.  (Read 167325 times)

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Offline pathfinder73

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #420 on: November 04, 2017, 07:21:39 PM »
Yeah and two witnesses saw the woman in purple around the same time and at the same location. Jenny Murat didn't know who she was but Jez Wilkins did. Hardly a job for Sherlock Holmes.

From Jez Wilkins rogatory statement:

Q. Relative to whether I know Jane Tanner;
Now I know her name, description of the clothes and photos which I have seen in the press. At that time I knew of her as a member of the group but did not know her name. I do not remember having seen her when I spoke with Gerry, but I believe I saw her when I first ventured out. She was stopped on the street in front of one of the group's apartments when I passed her down towards the exit to my apartment. I do not know if it was her apartment or not. I remember that she was wearing the colour purple.

and

Q. Relative to the exact location you met Gerry'
I left my apartment pushing my son's pram so that he could sleep. I did not have a particular direction to follow nor did I have a specific time to do this. I left the apartment and turned right. I walked via the lower street, looked to the building block where the McCann apartment was situated and saw a woman dressed in purple clothing. I referred to this woman in relation to the questions asked about Jane Tanner.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JEREMY-WILKINS-ROGATORY.htm
« Last Edit: November 05, 2017, 01:00:44 AM by John »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline barrier

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #421 on: November 04, 2017, 08:07:12 PM »
You'd wonder how she didn't see his face and identify him if he was a local.

No matter how much is insinuated there is nothing that links a local to all of this,if there is, a cite would be good.
This is my own private domicile and I shall not be harassed, biatch:Jesse Pinkman Character.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #422 on: November 04, 2017, 08:28:05 PM »
No matter how much is insinuated there is nothing that links a local to all of this,if there is, a cite would be good.
I said "if he was local".
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Offline misty

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #423 on: November 05, 2017, 12:52:25 AM »
It is, obviously, not possible to be certain on the points you raise, but, in response I believe a possible counter argument would be:

Point 1)

The phone pings do not locate a phone location accurately, and even if they did they do not prove the owner was near the phone.
A member of the bar staff, Salcedas, indicates the Tapas group left at a time consistent with Mrs Fenn's statement.
He makes a sworn statement: "When asked, he said that they would normally stay at the restaurant until 23.30 - 24.00, although some of them would leave earlier, at about 23.00."
Mrs Fenn also indicated her statement could be corroborated.

None of this is certain, but I'm taking the view that, on the balance of probabilities, the crying occurred and it was Madeleine crying; obviously others may take a different view.

Point 2)

This is a good point.
My belief is that the burglars may have had some knowledge (possibly inside knowledge) or belief that the adults were away from the apartments during the evening, and so they could safely target the apartments.
They were then surprised by the crying and scarpered; they realised later (again possibly with inside knowledge) that the children were being left alone.

====

The outline theory is just an extension of the burglary theory, to allow time for planning/surveillance before the actual alledged adbuction.
In other words, instead of the "burglary gone wrong" spontaneous act, there was a planned abduction by local low-level criminals who saw an opportunity.

I used the analysis report prepared by Paulo Rees when assuming that Kate was using her mobile in the apartment, minutes before the alleged crying incident. I accept that the report is not part of the official files but the author does appear to have had information not disclosed elsewhere.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
*snipped*
On Tuesday 1st May 2007, Gerald McCann's handset was silent all day. Kate McCanns mobile first activated the Luz antenna at 10.16, but all details of the days calls have been deleted from the handset and there is no nothing in the CD from her mobile provider. Another activation took place at 12.17. The Creche records show that Gerald McCann picked up Madeleine at 12.20 (a bit earlier than usual) but Kate McCann's call at 12.17 does not appear to have been to him, (because his mobile was not activated at all that day). Kate McCann dealt with her last call before leaving for the Tapas Bar at 20.35.

At around 8.45pm on Tuesday 1st May 2007, Miss Nejoua Chekeya, the Ocean Clubs busty Aerobics Instructor, held a 'Quiz Night' and was later invited, allegedly by Gerald McCann, to join his table which she did sometime between 9.30pm and 9.50pm. She did not say how long she had remained with them, but she is not the sort of woman men would wish see to leave too quickly. Miss Chekeya stated that one dinner setting was unused and that she could not remember seeing Kate McCann.

However, both Jane Tanner and Russell O'Brien have stated that he did not go to the Tapas Bar on the 'Quiz Night' (ie Tuesday 1st May 2007), but had stayed in their room looking after his sick daughter. Jane Tanner took his dinner to the room; thus explaining the unused plate setting. Russell O'Brien was not asked by either the PolĂ­cia Judiciaria or Leicestershire Police whether he had heard Madeleine crying!

Kate McCanns mobile was next activated six times, in rapid fire, between 22.16 and 22.27, after she had returned to Apartment 5A after dinner. The antenna traffic proves that these calls were not made to any of the 'Tapas 9'.

The evidence from the call logs gives the strongest clue that the 'Tapas 9' left their telephones in their rooms when they went to dinner. Clarence Mitchell, the McCanns spokesperson, confirmed this. In an interview, reported on 6th April 2008 by Ned Temko of 'The Guardian', Mr Mitchell said: 'You had nine people in a bar without watches on, without mobile phones and absolute panic set in when they realised what had happened'. We would say that, if the police had a perfect time line across nine people, that would be a damn sight more suspicious than the fractured, illogical, composite statements they might have got'.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I am at a loss to understand why Mrs Fenn did not tell either the police or GM about the distressing intrusion at her own premises one week earlier, especially in light of the prolonged crying she later seemed to equate to another possible attempted break-in. IMO it is inconceivable that a senior citizen who had been subjected to moments of terror would not wish to share details of an event which may have assisted in finding Madeleine.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With regards to the possibility of inside knowledge, I am surprised no-one made more of this part of a waiter's statement.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/NUNO-G-M-V-D-R-BERNADO.htm

"Last Thursday, after having finished his shift at about 17.30 he went home where he had dinner with his family and at about 22.15 he accompanied two of his cousins, Pedro aged 23 and Joao aged almost 17, brothers who live in Lagos to the Ocean Club resort as Joao had never visited the Tapas restaurant and the witness wanted to show him it.

They arrived there at about 22.30 in the midst of great commotion of people, many of them MW employees."

&

"When asked he said that he only saw Madeleine's parents on the news the following day. He does not remember them inside the restaurant or having served them, but he thinks that is possible given the number of people in the restaurant and the fact that they were mainly British. But he does remember that almost every night there was a reservation of a table for nine people in the restaurant for dinner. This table was situated opposite the bar and facing the apartments but there was plastic wind shield which did not enable a clear view outside."


Given that the waiter only worked from 0900-1700hrs he appeared to have taken a keen interest in the evening bookings & table allocation. It's also a bit weird to be taking 2 cousins to your workplace at 10.15pm, coincidentally on the same night Madeleine disappeared. I wonder if the cousins were ever interviewed?






Offline Innominate

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #424 on: November 05, 2017, 10:02:44 AM »
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DELETED_CALLS.htm
*snipped*
On Tuesday 1st May 2007, Gerald McCann's handset was silent all day. Kate McCanns mobile first activated the Luz antenna at 10.16, but all details of the days calls have been deleted from the handset and there is no nothing in the CD from her mobile provider. Another activation took place at 12.17. The Creche records show that Gerald McCann picked up Madeleine at 12.20 (a bit earlier than usual) but Kate McCann's call at 12.17 does not appear to have been to him, (because his mobile was not activated at all that day). Kate McCann dealt with her last call before leaving for the Tapas Bar at 20.35.

On Point 1 my view is "on the balance of probabilities" only (it is provisional), but I have not, at present, changed my view. It is a pity the PJ did not attempt to corroborate the report by Mrs Fenn.

I am not aware of a document in the files which confirms whether the phone activations where in/out or voice/sms. If there is a document it would help to determine whether the phone and the person were in the same location.

There does appear to be a discrepancy in the account quoted related to the section in bold.

The phone activity around that time is recorded as 19:45:03, 20:31:31, 20:33:32, 20:35:58, 20:37:24.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/ping/phonemapKate1mei.jpg

Her statement from 6/9/2007 is documented at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

snipped from the statement:

When asked about May 1, 2007 (holiday), she says that on that day they left the apartment around 8:30PM, the same time that was repeated every night.
...
They arrived at the Tapas around 8:31, taking the direct route, i.e. left by the veranda door, went down to the road and entered the secondary reception of the complex.


The above statement potentially undermines the analysis contained in the "deleted" calls document.

Irrespective of the above it is a theoretical possibility that calls were made or texts sent, from the apartment, on a checking visit, with the caller returning to the Tapas bar immediately afterwards.

Overall, I'm not convinced the analysis in the "deleted" calls document sufficiently undermines Mrs Fenn's statement, in order to discount it.

All IMO.







Offline misty

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #425 on: November 06, 2017, 07:00:07 PM »
On Point 1 my view is "on the balance of probabilities" only (it is provisional), but I have not, at present, changed my view. It is a pity the PJ did not attempt to corroborate the report by Mrs Fenn.

I am not aware of a document in the files which confirms whether the phone activations where in/out or voice/sms. If there is a document it would help to determine whether the phone and the person were in the same location.

There does appear to be a discrepancy in the account quoted related to the section in bold.

The phone activity around that time is recorded as 19:45:03, 20:31:31, 20:33:32, 20:35:58, 20:37:24.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/ping/phonemapKate1mei.jpg

Her statement from 6/9/2007 is documented at http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm

snipped from the statement:

When asked about May 1, 2007 (holiday), she says that on that day they left the apartment around 8:30PM, the same time that was repeated every night.
...
They arrived at the Tapas around 8:31, taking the direct route, i.e. left by the veranda door, went down to the road and entered the secondary reception of the complex.


The above statement potentially undermines the analysis contained in the "deleted" calls document.

Irrespective of the above it is a theoretical possibility that calls were made or texts sent, from the apartment, on a checking visit, with the caller returning to the Tapas bar immediately afterwards.

Overall, I'm not convinced the analysis in the "deleted" calls document sufficiently undermines Mrs Fenn's statement, in order to discount it.

All IMO.

Sorry, I wasn't attempting to undermine Mrs Fenn's statement in this instance. It was a roundabout way of dealing with the points you raised in post #366

Quote

"What if Mrs Fenn's speculations were correct?

She states: "When questioned she said that she never saw any strange person or action before or after the event. She claims however, that a week previously she was the victim of an attempted robbery, which was not successful and neither was anything taken, thinking that the crying of the child could be linked to another attempted robbery in the residence."

Is it possible that someone (or a couple of people) gained access to 5A on the 1st May?

If so they may have disturbed MBM which led to the crying (making the assumption that Mrs Fenn's account of the crying is accurate). They may then have left without taking or leaving signs of entry.

If so, this individual (or these individuals) could have returned on the 3rd, perhaps planning to burgle again, or having decided to escalate the crime to a kidnap for ransom."

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


You speculated that people may have gained access to 5A on Tues 1st May. If the analysis is correct, & Kate had been in the apartment for a several minutes on her phone, not long before 10.30pm, that could have been the trigger for any crying.
There are no reports that any other apartments were targeted that night. By 1030pm, I don't think many opportunist burglars would be seeking to enter premises, believing the occupants would be having a late dinner. Had prospective burglars actually entered the apartment via one of the doors around that time & heard a child crying, I don't think they'd have hung around long enough to check there wasn't an adult in either of the bedrooms.
IMO any prospective burglar would not have returned to 5A on Thursday, although I wouldn't discount that night having been a failed attempt. There were 8 families who'd left 11 children at the creche that night. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of them had left their apartments unattended for at least an hour around the 8.30-9.30pm period. Reconnaissance should have taken a burglar to one of those apartments (again?) & not 5A where the McCanns had allegedly left by the rear door.
It's a big step for a petty thief to move on to kidnapping for ransom. Isn't the target money or valuables/electronics which are easily exchanged for cash? Most surely aren't smart enough to outwit the police when it comes to the exchange & safe getaway, notwithstanding the problems associated with keeping the victim imprisoned & hidden.

BTW - a random question. Why do you think the buckets & spades had been left outside the front door?


Offline Innominate

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #426 on: November 07, 2017, 09:45:11 AM »
You speculated that people may have gained access to 5A on Tues 1st May. If the analysis is correct, & Kate had been in the apartment for a several minutes on her phone, not long before 10.30pm, that could have been the trigger for any crying.
There are no reports that any other apartments were targeted that night. By 1030pm, I don't think many opportunist burglars would be seeking to enter premises, believing the occupants would be having a late dinner. Had prospective burglars actually entered the apartment via one of the doors around that time & heard a child crying, I don't think they'd have hung around long enough to check there wasn't an adult in either of the bedrooms.
IMO any prospective burglar would not have returned to 5A on Thursday, although I wouldn't discount that night having been a failed attempt. There were 8 families who'd left 11 children at the creche that night. I'm pretty sure most, if not all, of them had left their apartments unattended for at least an hour around the 8.30-9.30pm period. Reconnaissance should have taken a burglar to one of those apartments (again?) & not 5A where the McCanns had allegedly left by the rear door.
It's a big step for a petty thief to move on to kidnapping for ransom. Isn't the target money or valuables/electronics which are easily exchanged for cash? Most surely aren't smart enough to outwit the police when it comes to the exchange & safe getaway, notwithstanding the problems associated with keeping the victim imprisoned & hidden.

BTW - a random question. Why do you think the buckets & spades had been left outside the front door?

Those are rational well argued points.

I tend to the view that there is a danger of over analysing. If something caused MBM to cry on the 1st, in the way Mrs Fenn describes (and it is not certain that her report is true), then there may be a link to events on the 3rd.

The investigative effect would be to analyse the phone data around that time. I'm sure OG have analysed the phone traffic around the 1st May as a matter of course, if they have the data. It is unfortunate if there is no data, because it is possible there was a link between the events.

With respect to motive there is the potential that "opportunity" increased the chance of a crime, based on the "opportunity" may lead to crime theory.

If local knowledge led to someone, especially someone with a criminal background, learning that the children were being left unsupervised then that could feed into the chances of a crime occuring.

One potential motive could have been extortion, which would be risky, but someone may have felt reward jusitified the risk; this calculation could have changed later, after the crime was committed.

MO suggested this a possibility on 4/5/07 : "The interviewee thinks that it is a kidnapping with the intention to demand a ransom from the parents, because these are people who are very comfortable financially."

AFAIK it has not been established whether what happended was the result of a spontaneous crime, e.g. burglary gone wrong, woke/wandered and hit by a driver over the achohol limit, or a planned crime; if it was planned then extortion could have been a motive.

All IMO, with the caveat that it has not been conclusively established that a crime occurred, or if a third party was involved the type of crime that occurred.

No idea about the bucket and spade!
« Last Edit: November 07, 2017, 11:21:08 AM by Innominate »

Offline G-Unit

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #427 on: November 07, 2017, 11:59:49 AM »
The only reason I can think of for leaving a bucket and spade outside is that they were sandy. As there was only one perhaps it was Madeleine's. She went to the beach on Tuesday to 'build a city', which suggests needing a spade.
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Offline misty

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #428 on: November 09, 2017, 12:34:01 AM »
Those are rational well argued points.

I tend to the view that there is a danger of over analysing. If something caused MBM to cry on the 1st, in the way Mrs Fenn describes (and it is not certain that her report is true), then there may be a link to events on the 3rd.

The investigative effect would be to analyse the phone data around that time. I'm sure OG have analysed the phone traffic around the 1st May as a matter of course, if they have the data. It is unfortunate if there is no data, because it is possible there was a link between the events.

With respect to motive there is the potential that "opportunity" increased the chance of a crime, based on the "opportunity" may lead to crime theory.

If local knowledge led to someone, especially someone with a criminal background, learning that the children were being left unsupervised then that could feed into the chances of a crime occuring.

One potential motive could have been extortion, which would be risky, but someone may have felt reward jusitified the risk; this calculation could have changed later, after the crime was committed.

MO suggested this a possibility on 4/5/07 : "The interviewee thinks that it is a kidnapping with the intention to demand a ransom from the parents, because these are people who are very comfortable financially."

AFAIK it has not been established whether what happended was the result of a spontaneous crime, e.g. burglary gone wrong, woke/wandered and hit by a driver over the achohol limit, or a planned crime; if it was planned then extortion could have been a motive.

All IMO, with the caveat that it has not been conclusively established that a crime occurred, or if a third party was involved the type of crime that occurred.

No idea about the bucket and spade!

My points may be rational but so much of this case is irrational, from the circumstances surrounding Madeleine’s disappearance to many of the subsequent events. It is difficult not to over analyse when there are so many extraordinary factors to consider. However, it is safe to say Mrs Fenn’s phone data would have been quite high on the list of the Met’s to-do list, along with all the other data for periods before & after the disappearance.

I understand what you are saying about a local criminal & opportunity. In Sadie’s theory, there is a watcher & a getaway driver so both would have needed local knowledge about the McCanns’ & their friends’ routine, the OC complex & the quickest means of disappearance from the crime scene. IMO, trying to combine those 3 elements into a planned kidnapping following very recently acquired opportunistic knowledge would be incredibly difficult.

MO may well have thought that it could have been a kidnap/ransom situation but IMO such a target would not have been selected from a basic 2 bed holiday apartment & no prior information about the family’s financial affairs.


I keep going back to the questions “Who knew that the children were alone?” followed by “What was gained by an (alleged) abduction then making Madeleine disappear without trace?”

Re. the buckets & spade – I wondered if they had been blown around in the gusty wind that night.

Off topic – but I read somewhere else that the clothing Eddie alerted to at the gym was actually in the washing machine when the dog was deployed at the villa. Any thoughts on that?

Offline Innominate

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #429 on: November 09, 2017, 01:08:00 PM »
My points may be rational but so much of this case is irrational, from the circumstances surrounding Madeleine’s disappearance to many of the subsequent events. It is difficult not to over analyse when there are so many extraordinary factors to consider. However, it is safe to say Mrs Fenn’s phone data would have been quite high on the list of the Met’s to-do list, along with all the other data for periods before & after the disappearance.

I understand what you are saying about a local criminal & opportunity. In Sadie’s theory, there is a watcher & a getaway driver so both would have needed local knowledge about the McCanns’ & their friends’ routine, the OC complex & the quickest means of disappearance from the crime scene. IMO, trying to combine those 3 elements into a planned kidnapping following very recently acquired opportunistic knowledge would be incredibly difficult.

MO may well have thought that it could have been a kidnap/ransom situation but IMO such a target would not have been selected from a basic 2 bed holiday apartment & no prior information about the family’s financial affairs.


I keep going back to the questions “Who knew that the children were alone?” followed by “What was gained by an (alleged) abduction then making Madeleine disappear without trace?”

Re. the buckets & spade – I wondered if they had been blown around in the gusty wind that night.

Off topic – but I read somewhere else that the clothing Eddie alerted to at the gym was actually in the washing machine when the dog was deployed at the villa. Any thoughts on that?

I agree the case is extraordinary.

It is not easy to separate fact from myth, and then it is necessary to formulate plausible hypotheses.

Mrs Fenn's statement is an example.

If the events she reports occured then a hypothesis could be that there is a link to the eventual disappearance.

I've given one possible hypothesis which has imperfections, and there are other hypotheses which have their own imperfections!

Another (admittedly imperfect) theory is outlined below.

Mrs Fenn reports the crying started about 10:30. It appears that checks of the apartment occur at intervals.
Y. Martin reports she was told the intervals were hourly, so 8:30 (arrive at Tapas), 9:30 (check) and 10:30 (check). Other reports suggest the interval was 30mins, these were reported at approx. 9:00, 9:30, 10:00 on 3rd May.

On the 1st we know there were some phone calls just before 10:30, and these may have been made from the apartment (we don't know for certain), which could indicate a 10:30 check.

Therefore it is possible MBM was disturbed by a check of the apartment, and there is nothing more to it (again, assuming the event is reported accurately by Mrs Fenn).

An alternative hypothesis could be an aborted abduction, which incorporates Sadie's suggestion that there was a 'watcher' as part of a planned abduction.

The ideal time to abduct, in my view, would be shortly after a check, to give maximum time before discovery.

A possible hypothesis could be that a 'watcher' saw the completed check close to 10:30 on the 1st, and a planned abduction was instigated (the watcher and the abductor could be the same person or different people).

Obviously MBM was not abducted on the 1st, so perhaps the aduction was aborted due the MBM starting to cry and making too much noise.

The problem with this theory is why didn't MBM report what had happened? Is is possible she was not fully awake, or perhaps anything she said was dismissed as a bad dream, and insufficient importance was attached to the event by the parents.

But, it is an establised fact that some form of 'cying incident' was reported by the parents, and the strong implication is they believe an earlier attempt to abduct may have taken place, but their timings do not agree with Mrs Fenn's report.

What would be the practical investigative impact of this theorising? In my view, it is important to looks back in time. Check alibis for the earlier days in the week around 8:30pm to 10:30pm - is there a person of interest who could be the watcher? What do the phone records show?

In summary it is possible to formulate theories and hypotheses, but not too easy to follow them through to any kind of conclusion, due to the wide degree of uncertainty and lack of knowledge about the current state of the investigation.

-----

A variation of the opportunity theory would be that someone had general plan, but no specific target in mind.

Then the opportunity presented itself. This is an alternative to the hastily concocted plan.

Financial affairs may not have been known in advance, but it may have become known the group were medical professionals, which could have led to assumptions about finances.

There are a number of plausible motives for a planned abduction; there appears to be a lot of uncertainty with repect to motive.

----

Re: buckets and spade

Based on two statements I believe it is pretty much established there was a breeze on the night of the 3rd.

The rogatory statement by DPayne casts some doubt over whether the window and shutters were open.

In my opinion, a "finder of fact" could reasonably conclude the window and shutters were closed (there is the possibility of a false memory situation, induced by stress - there does appear to be some academic reports about false memories).

----

Re: dogs

The CSI dog is clearly certified to identify blood. There appears to be a fairly rigorous certification process, although how well 'lab' conditions translate into real world conditions is not certain.

The EVRD dog is not so clearly certified, presumably because the purpose of the EVRD dog to locate human remains.

The idea of using the EVRD dog for screening would appear to be far more problematic, and if there is no certification process that would raise 'red flags' as to the efficacy of the method.

It is hard to discount the sheer number of EVRD alerts, but there is no basis, in the opinion of the handler, to draw any conclusions from the alerts unless backed by forensic evidence.

Cross contamination is possible. There is no scientific means of determine what, if anything, EVRD was alerting to.

----

All IMO. It is not been established whether there was an abduction, or whether any crime did occur and, if it did, the motive for the crime.

Offline Brietta

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #430 on: November 09, 2017, 02:28:53 PM »
I agree the case is extraordinary.

It is not easy to separate fact from myth, and then it is necessary to formulate plausible hypotheses.

Mrs Fenn's statement is an example.

If the events she reports occured then a hypothesis could be that there is a link to the eventual disappearance.

I've given one possible hypothesis which has imperfections, and there are other hypotheses which have their own imperfections!

Another (admittedly imperfect) theory is outlined below.

Mrs Fenn reports the crying started about 10:30. It appears that checks of the apartment occur at intervals.
Y. Martin reports she was told the intervals were hourly, so 8:30 (arrive at Tapas), 9:30 (check) and 10:30 (check). Other reports suggest the interval was 30mins, these were reported at approx. 9:00, 9:30, 10:00 on 3rd May.

On the 1st we know there were some phone calls just before 10:30, and these may have been made from the apartment (we don't know for certain), which could indicate a 10:30 check.

Therefore it is possible MBM was disturbed by a check of the apartment, and there is nothing more to it (again, assuming the event is reported accurately by Mrs Fenn).

An alternative hypothesis could be an aborted abduction, which incorporates Sadie's suggestion that there was a 'watcher' as part of a planned abduction.

The ideal time to abduct, in my view, would be shortly after a check, to give maximum time before discovery.

A possible hypothesis could be that a 'watcher' saw the completed check close to 10:30 on the 1st, and a planned abduction was instigated (the watcher and the abductor could be the same person or different people).

Obviously MBM was not abducted on the 1st, so perhaps the aduction was aborted due the MBM starting to cry and making too much noise.

The problem with this theory is why didn't MBM report what had happened? Is is possible she was not fully awake, or perhaps anything she said was dismissed as a bad dream, and insufficient importance was attached to the event by the parents.

But, it is an establised fact that some form of 'cying incident' was reported by the parents, and the strong implication is they believe an earlier attempt to abduct may have taken place, but their timings do not agree with Mrs Fenn's report.

What would be the practical investigative impact of this theorising? In my view, it is important to looks back in time. Check alibis for the earlier days in the week around 8:30pm to 10:30pm - is there a person of interest who could be the watcher? What do the phone records show?

In summary it is possible to formulate theories and hypotheses, but not too easy to follow them through to any kind of conclusion, due to the wide degree of uncertainty and lack of knowledge about the current state of the investigation.

-----

A variation of the opportunity theory would be that someone had general plan, but no specific target in mind.

Then the opportunity presented itself. This is an alternative to the hastily concocted plan.

Financial affairs may not have been known in advance, but it may have become known the group were medical professionals, which could have led to assumptions about finances.

There are a number of plausible motives for a planned abduction; there appears to be a lot of uncertainty with repect to motive.

----

Re: buckets and spade

Based on two statements I believe it is pretty much established there was a breeze on the night of the 3rd.

The rogatory statement by DPayne casts some doubt over whether the window and shutters were open.

In my opinion, a "finder of fact" could reasonably conclude the window and shutters were closed (there is the possibility of a false memory situation, induced by stress - there does appear to be some academic reports about false memories).

----

Re: dogs

The CSI dog is clearly certified to identify blood. There appears to be a fairly rigorous certification process, although how well 'lab' conditions translate into real world conditions is not certain.

The EVRD dog is not so clearly certified, presumably because the purpose of the EVRD dog to locate human remains.

The idea of using the EVRD dog for screening would appear to be far more problematic, and if there is no certification process that would raise 'red flags' as to the efficacy of the method.

It is hard to discount the sheer number of EVRD alerts, but there is no basis, in the opinion of the handler, to draw any conclusions from the alerts unless backed by forensic evidence.

Cross contamination is possible. There is no scientific means of determine what, if anything, EVRD was alerting to.

----

All IMO. It is not been established whether there was an abduction, or whether any crime did occur and, if it did, the motive for the crime.

Hourly Checking?
No-one in the group of people who were present said that checks were made hourly.  However, Yvonne Martin, a social worker who was on vacation in Portugal at the time later claimed that Kate McCann, whilst visibly upset, told her that they'd been checking "hourly".  She also claimed that Kate McCann said Madeleine had been "taken by a couple".  It should be noted that by her own admission, Ms Martin attempted to question on such matters as whether Gerry McCann was Madeleine's "biological father" and she also attempted to separate Kate McCann from the group to question her privately.  Yvonne Martin wrote an anonymous letter to the police voicing her suspicions that the McCanns were involved in their daughter's disappearance.  Her statement can be read here.
 
Conclusion
Each couple made their own arrangements and everyone describes a regular coming and going of parents checking on their children.  The report of "hourly" checks does not come from anyone who was there, but rather the testimony of a complete stranger who approached the McCanns in the street and attempted to question them whilst they were very distressed and increasingly suspicious of her motives.  As "hearsay", her evidence would not be admissible in court.
 
The timings given by the couples may not tally precisely, but this is hardly surprising given that they were in a social situation and not anticipating being asked to give precise accounts and timings of their movements.  No-one was keeping a written record.
http://madeleinemythsexposed.pbworks.com/w/page/39077853/Rebuttal%20of%20%22Fact%22%2025
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #431 on: November 09, 2017, 06:13:16 PM »
My points may be rational but so much of this case is irrational, from the circumstances surrounding Madeleine’s disappearance to many of the subsequent events. It is difficult not to over analyse when there are so many extraordinary factors to consider. However, it is safe to say Mrs Fenn’s phone data would have been quite high on the list of the Met’s to-do list, along with all the other data for periods before & after the disappearance.

I understand what you are saying about a local criminal & opportunity. In Sadie’s theory, there is a watcher & a getaway driver so both would have needed local knowledge about the McCanns’ & their friends’ routine, the OC complex & the quickest means of disappearance from the crime scene. IMO, trying to combine those 3 elements into a planned kidnapping following very recently acquired opportunistic knowledge would be incredibly difficult.

MO may well have thought that it could have been a kidnap/ransom situation but IMO such a target would not have been selected from a basic 2 bed holiday apartment & no prior information about the family’s financial affairs.


I keep going back to the questions “Who knew that the children were alone?” followed by “What was gained by an (alleged) abduction then making Madeleine disappear without trace?”

Re. the buckets & spade – I wondered if they had been blown around in the gusty wind that night.

Off topic – but I read somewhere else that the clothing Eddie alerted to at the gym was actually in the washing machine when the dog was deployed at the villa. Any thoughts on that?

That's even more suspicious if true.
« Last Edit: November 09, 2017, 06:15:53 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #432 on: November 09, 2017, 06:29:36 PM »
That's even more suspicious if true.
Well it can be made to sound suspicious, but that would have to mean that the dog search of the villa was timed to coincide with the moving of the cadaver in the rental car.  Does the PJ actually know what is going on?
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Offline G-Unit

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #433 on: November 09, 2017, 06:39:57 PM »
Well it can be made to sound suspicious, but that would have to mean that the dog search of the villa was timed to coincide with the moving of the cadaver in the rental car.  Does the PJ actually know what is going on?

It would suggest a knowledge of the skills of the dogs and an attempt to keep possibly contaminated clothing out of the way of them. Nothing to do with a car imo.
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Offline Robittybob1

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #434 on: November 09, 2017, 07:06:44 PM »
It would suggest a knowledge of the skills of the dogs and an attempt to keep possibly contaminated clothing out of the way of them. Nothing to do with a car imo.
This is happening early August 3 months after the events in apartment 5A and any clothes worn that night would have been through the wash many times already.  So if the clothes were actually alerted to there must have been some reason to recontaminate the clothes and the hire car. But when is the tricky bit.
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John has instructed all moderators to take a very strong line with posters who constantly breach the rules of this forum.  This sniping, goading, name calling and other various forms of disruption will cease.