Author Topic: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.  (Read 167337 times)

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Offline misty

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #435 on: November 10, 2017, 02:12:42 PM »
I agree the case is extraordinary.

It is not easy to separate fact from myth, and then it is necessary to formulate plausible hypotheses.

Mrs Fenn's statement is an example.

If the events she reports occured then a hypothesis could be that there is a link to the eventual disappearance.

I've given one possible hypothesis which has imperfections, and there are other hypotheses which have their own imperfections!

Another (admittedly imperfect) theory is outlined below.

Mrs Fenn reports the crying started about 10:30. It appears that checks of the apartment occur at intervals.
Y. Martin reports she was told the intervals were hourly, so 8:30 (arrive at Tapas), 9:30 (check) and 10:30 (check). Other reports suggest the interval was 30mins, these were reported at approx. 9:00, 9:30, 10:00 on 3rd May.

On the 1st we know there were some phone calls just before 10:30, and these may have been made from the apartment (we don't know for certain), which could indicate a 10:30 check.

Therefore it is possible MBM was disturbed by a check of the apartment, and there is nothing more to it (again, assuming the event is reported accurately by Mrs Fenn).

An alternative hypothesis could be an aborted abduction, which incorporates Sadie's suggestion that there was a 'watcher' as part of a planned abduction.

The ideal time to abduct, in my view, would be shortly after a check, to give maximum time before discovery.

A possible hypothesis could be that a 'watcher' saw the completed check close to 10:30 on the 1st, and a planned abduction was instigated (the watcher and the abductor could be the same person or different people).

Obviously MBM was not abducted on the 1st, so perhaps the aduction was aborted due the MBM starting to cry and making too much noise.

The problem with this theory is why didn't MBM report what had happened? Is is possible she was not fully awake, or perhaps anything she said was dismissed as a bad dream, and insufficient importance was attached to the event by the parents.

But, it is an establised fact that some form of 'cying incident' was reported by the parents, and the strong implication is they believe an earlier attempt to abduct may have taken place, but their timings do not agree with Mrs Fenn's report.

What would be the practical investigative impact of this theorising? In my view, it is important to looks back in time. Check alibis for the earlier days in the week around 8:30pm to 10:30pm - is there a person of interest who could be the watcher? What do the phone records show?

In summary it is possible to formulate theories and hypotheses, but not too easy to follow them through to any kind of conclusion, due to the wide degree of uncertainty and lack of knowledge about the current state of the investigation.

-----

A variation of the opportunity theory would be that someone had general plan, but no specific target in mind.

Then the opportunity presented itself. This is an alternative to the hastily concocted plan.

Financial affairs may not have been known in advance, but it may have become known the group were medical professionals, which could have led to assumptions about finances.

There are a number of plausible motives for a planned abduction; there appears to be a lot of uncertainty with repect to motive.

----

Re: buckets and spade

Based on two statements I believe it is pretty much established there was a breeze on the night of the 3rd.

The rogatory statement by DPayne casts some doubt over whether the window and shutters were open.

In my opinion, a "finder of fact" could reasonably conclude the window and shutters were closed (there is the possibility of a false memory situation, induced by stress - there does appear to be some academic reports about false memories).

----

Re: dogs

The CSI dog is clearly certified to identify blood. There appears to be a fairly rigorous certification process, although how well 'lab' conditions translate into real world conditions is not certain.

The EVRD dog is not so clearly certified, presumably because the purpose of the EVRD dog to locate human remains.

The idea of using the EVRD dog for screening would appear to be far more problematic, and if there is no certification process that would raise 'red flags' as to the efficacy of the method.

It is hard to discount the sheer number of EVRD alerts, but there is no basis, in the opinion of the handler, to draw any conclusions from the alerts unless backed by forensic evidence.

Cross contamination is possible. There is no scientific means of determine what, if anything, EVRD was alerting to.

----

All IMO. It is not been established whether there was an abduction, or whether any crime did occur and, if it did, the motive for the crime.
It would be so much easier to formulate the perfect hypotheses if we had all the info - or maybe not, given how long the PJ & Met have been working on it. :)

A crying incident which occurred involving the McCann children on the Monday or Tuesday was formally reported to the PJ by GM in his statement of 10th May.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
“He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.”

Unfortunately, we do not have a statement from Kate taken around the same time which corroborates that particular incident.
Possibly it was Mrs Fenn who suffered a hazy memory re. the crying some 3 months later. She recalled the correct evening but not the precise times the crying started & ceased. If the crying incident did occur after the parents had returned to 5A that night then it is unlikely to have been caused by an aborted  abduction attempt IMO, particularly as Madeleine did not mention an unusual disturbance to Kate. Of course,without  confirmation from Mrs Glyn & the phone data, it’s all supposition as you said.

With regard to the  frequency of the checks on the Tuesday, I am guessing that they were not half-hourly or even hourly. It was quiz night, which must have taken place  during the time the group ate dinner & between 2130 & 2150 hrs the quiz mistress was invited by GM to their table. Possibly between  2030hrs & 2150hrs neither of the McCanns went back to the apartment to check on the children.
There is always the possibility that the scenario you suggested could have taken place on the Wednesday night, when the parents admit to being out later than usual. However, I do struggle with the concept that there was an aborted attempt which left no evidence & that potential abductors failed to take advantage during the extended periods of parental absence. I also struggle with the idea that a non-resident  had engaged in prolonged monitoring of the apartment, unnoticed, over 2 or 3 nights before the plan was executed.

IMO Kate was not suffering from false memory about the curtains, window & shutter. Had the window & shutter been as she left it, her first reaction would have been to assume that Madeleine was elsewhere in the apartment, maybe hiding – not that someone had taken her. External doors found as they had been left would not have been an indication that she had wandered: a child would wasn’t to be able to easily return to the place of safety.

 IMO a vehicle had to have been used at some stage or Madeleine would have been found in Luz. That fact alone, though, does not rule out the slight niggle of parental involvement.


Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #436 on: November 10, 2017, 08:19:44 PM »
It would be so much easier to formulate the perfect hypotheses if we had all the info - or maybe not, given how long the PJ & Met have been working on it. :)

A crying incident which occurred involving the McCann children on the Monday or Tuesday was formally reported to the PJ by GM in his statement of 10th May.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm
“He cannot say exactly, but he thinks that on Monday or Tuesday MADELEINE had slept for some time in his bedroom with KATE as she [K] had told him that one or both twins had cried making much noise.”

Unfortunately, we do not have a statement from Kate taken around the same time which corroborates that particular incident.
Possibly it was Mrs Fenn who suffered a hazy memory re. the crying some 3 months later. She recalled the correct evening but not the precise times the crying started & ceased. If the crying incident did occur after the parents had returned to 5A that night then it is unlikely to have been caused by an aborted  abduction attempt IMO, particularly as Madeleine did not mention an unusual disturbance to Kate. Of course,without  confirmation from Mrs Glyn & the phone data, it’s all supposition as you said.

With regard to the  frequency of the checks on the Tuesday, I am guessing that they were not half-hourly or even hourly. It was quiz night, which must have taken place  during the time the group ate dinner & between 2130 & 2150 hrs the quiz mistress was invited by GM to their table. Possibly between  2030hrs & 2150hrs neither of the McCanns went back to the apartment to check on the children.
There is always the possibility that the scenario you suggested could have taken place on the Wednesday night, when the parents admit to being out later than usual. However, I do struggle with the concept that there was an aborted attempt which left no evidence & that potential abductors failed to take advantage during the extended periods of parental absence. I also struggle with the idea that a non-resident  had engaged in prolonged monitoring of the apartment, unnoticed, over 2 or 3 nights before the plan was executed.

IMO Kate was not suffering from false memory about the curtains, window & shutter. Had the window & shutter been as she left it, her first reaction would have been to assume that Madeleine was elsewhere in the apartment, maybe hiding – not that someone had taken her. External doors found as they had been left would not have been an indication that she had wandered: a child would wasn’t to be able to easily return to the place of safety.

 IMO a vehicle had to have been used at some stage or Madeleine would have been found in Luz. That fact alone, though, does not rule out the slight niggle of parental involvement.

They clearly do not have all of the information either?
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline misty

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #437 on: November 10, 2017, 09:02:36 PM »
They clearly do not have all of the information either?

They have considerably more information than we do, Alice. Maybe they just haven't put it in the right order yet. :)

Offline G-Unit

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #438 on: November 10, 2017, 10:14:51 PM »
They have considerably more information than we do, Alice. Maybe they just haven't put it in the right order yet. :)

That makes me think of Eric Morecambe. Playing all the right notes on the piano but not necessarily in the right order. In both cases the wrong order = nonsense.
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Offline Innominate

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #439 on: November 11, 2017, 08:57:50 AM »
IMO Kate was not suffering from false memory about the curtains, window & shutter. Had the window & shutter been as she left it, her first reaction would have been to assume that Madeleine was elsewhere in the apartment, maybe hiding – not that someone had taken her. External doors found as they had been left would not have been an indication that she had wandered: a child would wasn’t to be able to easily return to the place of safety.

I'm picking up on this point. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am just throwing some counter arguments into the mix.

David Payne walked back, with KMcC, after the alarm was raised.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

sniped section:

It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate,
I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or etcetera.

-----

Why did KMcC not talk about the window/shutters with David Payne, surely that would be the first thing she would say?

Her first reaction was to search the apartment for MBM, so I don't think that helps to decide the position of the window and shutters.

How does anyone know, for certain, what state the curtains, window and shutters were in. Even David Payne will not commit, and he was one of the first into the apartment.

There was a full moon that night, perhaps someone simply opened one of the curtains to allow extra light into the room. Or slightly opened one of the windows so they could hear if a parent was returning to the front door.

If the window/shutters were not significantly disturbed then I believe the "burglary gone wrong" theory may have problems.

All IMO.

Offline Brietta

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #440 on: November 11, 2017, 10:23:18 AM »
I'm picking up on this point. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am just throwing some counter arguments into the mix.

David Payne walked back, with KMcC, after the alarm was raised.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

sniped section:

It was a face of someone's child who had been taken and you know and very clearly said she's gone, she's you know, she's gone, you know and there was a disbelief on our face you know ah you know you must be mistaken, what, and then you know just looking at her we just all err left the table, rushed over to her and as we were walking up towards the flat she said err you know they've taken her and it was, you know, and I know there's been a controversy about what was actually said but you know that is very accurately what had been said. Like I say, as I say you know you could just never forget her face and those words, and err as we were, you know, approaching their apartment I was just saying to Kate,
I said well look how do you know that is the case, and err you know again I, I can't remember the exact words then, but I was very interested in finding what the state of the apartment was like when she'd got there to see who'd left err doors open or etcetera.

-----

Why did KMcC not talk about the window/shutters with David Payne, surely that would be the first thing she would say?

Her first reaction was to search the apartment for MBM, so I don't think that helps to decide the position of the window and shutters.

How does anyone know, for certain, what state the curtains, window and shutters were in. Even David Payne will not commit, and he was one of the first into the apartment.

There was a full moon that night, perhaps someone simply opened one of the curtains to allow extra light into the room. Or slightly opened one of the windows so they could hear if a parent was returning to the front door.

If the window/shutters were not significantly disturbed then I believe the "burglary gone wrong" theory may have problems.

All IMO.

Sadie's theory revolves around eye witness testimony of which there is sufficient to be going on with.  Starting with Kate's description of the open window and Jane's description of the man she had seen at the top of the road.

The most salient evidence being the fact that Madeleine was missing ... not the fact that her mother's analytical thinking was highly unlikely to have kicked in to the extent of vocalising beyond that; or to be capable of conversing about the event in intricate detail in the thirty or so seconds from the tapas to the apartment.

Sadie's theory includes the likelihood that transportation would be required to remove Madeleine from the scene as quickly as possible.
We know from some witness statements that there were vehicles both on the move from car parks and parked on the road outside the the McCann apartment and the tapas as well as elsewhere in Luz.

Snip
 "We never heard anything back from the Portuguese police, who in July 2008 officially closed the case."
******************************************************************************************
"Of particular interest to the Metropolitan Police was the speeding pick-up truck that flew past us on the way home from the restaurant ....... "
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/crucial-madeleine-mccann-case-questions-that-remain-unanswered-after-a-decade-35670997.html

In my opinion, Sadie's theory has a substance to it ... which no other theory has been able to replicate without twisting salient facts into improbabilities.

Is there a record of burglaries being carried out in block five?

Have arguidos admitted to burglarising in the resort?

If the answer to both these questions is "Yes" I think it likely it is premature to dismiss a connection with either admitted burglars or free lance operatives who may have inadvertently upped their game from plasma screens to trafficking in one fell swoop.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline Innominate

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #441 on: November 11, 2017, 12:20:44 PM »
Sadie's theory revolves around eye witness testimony of which there is sufficient to be going on with.  Starting with Kate's description of the open window and Jane's description of the man she had seen at the top of the road.

The most salient evidence being the fact that Madeleine was missing ... not the fact that her mother's analytical thinking was highly unlikely to have kicked in to the extent of vocalising beyond that; or to be capable of conversing about the event in intricate detail in the thirty or so seconds from the tapas to the apartment.

Sadie's theory includes the likelihood that transportation would be required to remove Madeleine from the scene as quickly as possible.
We know from some witness statements that there were vehicles both on the move from car parks and parked on the road outside the the McCann apartment and the tapas as well as elsewhere in Luz.

Snip
 "We never heard anything back from the Portuguese police, who in July 2008 officially closed the case."
******************************************************************************************
"Of particular interest to the Metropolitan Police was the speeding pick-up truck that flew past us on the way home from the restaurant ....... "
https://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/uk/crucial-madeleine-mccann-case-questions-that-remain-unanswered-after-a-decade-35670997.html

In my opinion, Sadie's theory has a substance to it ... which no other theory has been able to replicate without twisting salient facts into improbabilities.

Is there a record of burglaries being carried out in block five?

Have arguidos admitted to burglarising in the resort?

If the answer to both these questions is "Yes" I think it likely it is premature to dismiss a connection with either admitted burglars or free lance operatives who may have inadvertently upped their game from plasma screens to trafficking in one fell swoop.

OG have, on national television, all but dismissed the Tanner sighting - that might change, but that is the state of play at the moment. I do not see how that can be simply ignored.

I have not suggested trafficking was a motive; although it may be.

I do not believe Sadie's theory is dependent on the window, in fact, I think it is harder to fit the window into Sadie's theory than to ignore the window. If entry was made by the front door then it would have been simpler to exit via the front door.

All IMO.



Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #442 on: November 11, 2017, 12:34:26 PM »
Given that most criminal acts have more than a little concealment of intention, purpose and action this crowd sure went out of their way to attract attention to themselves. For the most part seemingly by introducing unneccessary and risky activities.
Who remembers Charlie's Angels? The story lines were always dependant on the Professional Agent making a rookie mistake.. ?{)(**
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline G-Unit

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #443 on: November 11, 2017, 12:51:16 PM »
Given that most criminal acts have more than a little concealment of intention, purpose and action this crowd sure went out of their way to attract attention to themselves. For the most part seemingly by introducing unneccessary and risky activities.
Who remembers Charlie's Angels? The story lines were always dependant on the Professional Agent making a rookie mistake.. ?{)(**

For me the problem with Sadie's theory is the suggestion that this girl and no other was the target. As such, it was vital to get her. Then they sent in the worst team of abductors ever.
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Offline Alice Purjorick

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #444 on: November 11, 2017, 03:24:36 PM »
For me the problem with Sadie's theory is the suggestion that this girl and no other was the target. As such, it was vital to get her. Then they sent in the worst team of abductors ever.

The detail needs to be rewritten following the fragging of Tannerman by that nice DCI Redwood.
Did we ever sort out what kind of getaway vehicle was being used?
Somewhere up the thread it was being suggested it might have been a panel truck (service vehicle) as it would sort of blend into the background.
Now if you want to do a serious bit of criminal activity in a holiday resort what would be top of the shop for a getaway vehicle? Loads of them about all over the oche with drivers of all makes and shapes? It ain't a panel truck that's for sure..... *%87
"Navigating the difference between weird but normal grief and truly suspicious behaviour is the key for any detective worth his salt.". ….Sarah Bailey

Offline Brietta

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #445 on: November 11, 2017, 05:21:31 PM »
OG have, on national television, all but dismissed the Tanner sighting - that might change, but that is the state of play at the moment. I do not see how that can be simply ignored.

I have not suggested trafficking was a motive; although it may be.

I do not believe Sadie's theory is dependent on the window, in fact, I think it is harder to fit the window into Sadie's theory than to ignore the window. If entry was made by the front door then it would have been simpler to exit via the front door.

All IMO.

In my opinion Sadie's theory is fluid insofar as she is entirely open to other explanations or suggestions which either work the available evidence into the equation, as hers does, or which reflect situations which may be within the parameters of possibility.

In my opinion, Sadie's theory owes nothing to the fact that Kate found the window to the children's bedroom open and the shutter raised.  There are many acknowledged possibilities to that, perhaps even the possibility that those in possession of a key may have been anxious for that fact to be overlooked ... and if it was a diversionary tactic it must surely have worked out beyond the wildest dreams.

The word 'trafficking' is not one I attributed to you or to anyone else; it is all mine and was used in the context of my post, but though the motive behind Madeleine's disappearance, if there was a motive prior to the event, is obviously pertinent in my opinion, the backbone of Sadie's theory is more in line logically with the method of her removal and those who may be responsible for it.
We can't second guess motive, but we can work out the known parameters within which it could have happened.
Sadie's theory addresses that.

Initially when Sadie started working on her theory, Operation Grange was not in existence.  Therefore no-one knew that they were going to trace and identify a man who was carrying his child home as Jane Tanner had described; and the fact that DCI Redwood expressed the view that they were "almost" certain they were one and the same man, in my opinion leaves room for manoeuvre.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #446 on: November 11, 2017, 05:41:09 PM »
It would be interesting to know what evidence was found on that open window by KM? Oh sorry we do know, no evidence was found except her fingerprints.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline misty

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #447 on: November 11, 2017, 05:52:35 PM »
In my opinion Sadie's theory is fluid insofar as she is entirely open to other explanations or suggestions which either work the available evidence into the equation, as hers does, or which reflect situations which may be within the parameters of possibility.

In my opinion, Sadie's theory owes nothing to the fact that Kate found the window to the children's bedroom open and the shutter raised.  There are many acknowledged possibilities to that, perhaps even the possibility that those in possession of a key may have been anxious for that fact to be overlooked ... and if it was a diversionary tactic it must surely have worked out beyond the wildest dreams.

The word 'trafficking' is not one I attributed to you or to anyone else; it is all mine and was used in the context of my post, but though the motive behind Madeleine's disappearance, if there was a motive prior to the event, is obviously pertinent in my opinion, the backbone of Sadie's theory is more in line logically with the method of her removal and those who may be responsible for it.
We can't second guess motive, but we can work out the known parameters within which it could have happened.
Sadie's theory addresses that.

Initially when Sadie started working on her theory, Operation Grange was not in existence.  Therefore no-one knew that they were going to trace and identify a man who was carrying his child home as Jane Tanner had described; and the fact that DCI Redwood expressed the view that they were "almost" certain they were one and the same man, in my opinion leaves room for manoeuvre.

DCI Redwood does not actually say that.

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #448 on: November 11, 2017, 05:58:52 PM »
DCI Redwood does not actually say that.

Mail quotes.

Quote
The Metropolitan Police last night confirmed it had ruled out a sighting of the man previously seen near the McCanns’ Portuguese apartment.

Snip

We are almost certain that the man seen by Jane Tanner is not Madeleine's abductor.
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #449 on: November 11, 2017, 07:13:50 PM »
Mail quotes.

What interests me is why supporters are so hellbent on ignoring Redwood's words.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?