Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.

[Benice]

By picking up cigarette butts ? From where ? The street ? The car park ? The car park across the road ? And how are you going to know when they were deposited ?

Graham Mackenzie who found the cigarette butts on a balcony overlooking Apartment 5A was astute enough to wonder whether someone had stood there and watched 5A.   As Sadie said - he/she couldn't have been admiring the view - as there wasn't one.     Did someone stand there chain smoking and watching the movements in and out of 5A?  If the police had decided to check out places from where 5A could be watched then maybe they would have found the cigarette butts and if they were unable to find the smoker in the apartments then at least they could have obtained a DNA sample from them.

I don't understand why you are so hostile to what seems a perfectly sensible line of enquiry.




   

[faithlilly]

Graham Mackenzie who found the cigarette butts on a balcony overlooking Apartment 5A was astute enough to wonder whether someone had stood there and watched 5A.   As Sadie said - he/she couldn't have been admiring the view - as there wasn't one.     Did someone stand there chain smoking and watching the movements in and out of 5A?  If the police had decided to check out places from where 5A could be watched then maybe they would have found the cigarette butts and if they were unable to find the smoker in the apartments then at least they could have obtained a DNA sample from them.

I don't understand why you are so hostile to what seems a perfectly sensible line of enquiry.

There was absolutely nothing to tie those butts to Madeleine's disappearance and nothing to say anyone stood watching the McCanns apartment from that balcony.

The balcony was public therefore by standing on it for any length of time the alleged abductor would have risked being seen by people passing in the street  or by a resident of the block passing him to go down the stairs.




   

[AnneGuedes]

The balcony was public therefore by standing on it for any length of time the alleged abductor would have risked being seen by people passing in the street  or by a resident of the block passing him to go down the stairs.

Since people stopped smoking inside of flats, it's frequent to see smokers on a balcony. The civilized ones leave the butts in some recipient with sand. The others throw them in the street..

[sadie]

Since people stopped smoking inside of flats, it's frequent to see smokers on a balcony. The civilized ones leave the butts in some recipient with sand. The others throw them in the street..

Yep, but each apartment had a huge balcony with a wonderful sea view on its southern side.  This balcony with the fags, was sort of part of the stairs up, as far as I can see and had less attractive views. 

Why smoke your fags in a place that isn't so nice?  And a number of fags, so there for some time.
   Picture thanks to John
The better balconies attached to the falts are those on the LH building ... huge and with wonderful views to the sea (at an educated guess)

Remember, where the fag-end-spot was positioned, was looking out directly on the side of 5A and had views of the front and the rear of the flat.

[Lace]

Regardless of whether or not the person was there just to pass the time having a ciggie or whether that person was watching the apartment.

IMO a sample of the cigarette butts should have been taken 'just in case'    how often do you see police collect cigarette butts from the area of a crime scene?

It would have DNA  then if someone was brought in as a suspect DNA could be checked.

[Lace]

That pile of cigarette butts is very curious to me.

Either this person was in and out smoking and not bothering to clean up after him/herself  which I find a bit disgusting,   neither were the cleaners cleaning them up.

Or this person was there for some considerable time smoking.   I don't smoke so don't know how long it would take to smoke a pile of cigarettes, but if what Sadie has said the view wasn't good,  just looking over to 5a and not the sea then I find it strange that this person spent so long standing there smoking.

[sadie]

It is very curious to me too.  The view from that fag-butt-balcony is not awful by any means, but directly in front looms the side of Ocean Club Apart 5A  + other apartments above.  OC is quite tall .  Several stories high.  So that  is not a good outlook.

Looking to the north is OK but nothing special.  For a watcher, there is a wonderful view of all the access routes from there.  The road that bundleman walked along is clearly viewed at its easterly end, so any one coming towards 5A from the east would be immediately spotted.  And from the shadows (the nearby lamp cast shadows) there is a view just as far as to 5A gate..  Taking a few steps into the light, the tapas restaurant and IIRC the Tapas reception could be seen, as in  the photo underneath..

A brilliant  look out place.  Why didn't the PJ check that?



As you can see the view to the south west is over OC gardens and tapas bar and outside restaurant.  The balcony is set back, so the rest of the view is cut off by the corner of the .  apartment wall.   Now narrow view that it is, that isn't bad, but not as good as surely the view would be from the massive front balcony, which would also have seats and probably tables for a drink..
 


Like the fag balcony, that view from the big balcony would also see over the OC gardens, but the whole of them ... and over much of PdL, with a panoramic view of the ocean, I would think. 

Unfortunately we dont have a photo of that view, but we can get an idea from a much lower ground level vantage point




On the right is OC.  To the left and behind the tall slim tree is the ?watchers and fag-balcony with the apartment beyond.  The big balcony is out of view round the corner,  but basically has a view in this direction but from a higher vantage point.  There would be seats there too.

So why smoke lots of fags where:
1)  The view is largely  opressed by OC looming up
2)  There are no seats
3)  And it is just a "landing balcony" on stairways, open to anyone who is cheeky enough to go there?
When a flat occupant, using the big balcony, could have the luxury of a better view and the comfort of a seat and a cuppa tea or glass of wine?

Doesn't make sense to me, unless watching the comings to,  and goings from 5A, was the main reason.


As I said before, a brilliant watchers place.  Why didn't the PJ check it?  And test the fag ends?

[Redblossom]

Graham Mackenzie who found the cigarette butts on a balcony overlooking Apartment 5A was astute enough to wonder whether someone had stood there and watched 5A.   As Sadie said - he/she couldn't have been admiring the view - as there wasn't one.     Did someone stand there chain smoking and watching the movements in and out of 5A?  If the police had decided to check out places from where 5A could be watched then maybe they would have found the cigarette butts and if they were unable to find the smoker in the apartments then at least they could have obtained a DNA sample from them.

I don't understand why you are so hostile to what seems a perfectly sensible line of enquiry.




   

But did the PJ know about his statement, he didnt come forward until Sept 07 IIRC or later via crimestoppers

[faithlilly]

It is very curious to me too.  The view from that fag-butt-balcony is not awful by any means, but directly in front looms the side of Ocean Club Apart 5A  + other apartments above.  OC is quite tall .  Several stories high.  So that  is not a good outlook.

Looking to the north is OK but nothing special.  For a watcher, there is a wonderful view of all the access routes from there.  The road that bundleman walked along is clearly viewed at its easterly end, so any one coming towards 5A from the east would be immediately spotted.  And from the shadows (the nearby lamp cast shadows) there is a view just as far as to 5A gate..  Taking a few steps into the light, the tapas restaurant and IIRC the Tapas reception could be seen, as in  the photo underneath..

A brilliant  look out place.  Why didn't the PJ check that?



As you can see the view to the south west is over OC gardens and tapas bar and outside restaurant.  The balcony is set back, so the rest of the view is cut off by the corner of the .  apartment wall.   Now narrow view that it is, that isn't bad, but not as good as surely the view would be from the massive front balcony, which would also have seats and probably tables for a drink..
 


Like the fag balcony, that view from the big balcony would also see over the OC gardens, but the whole of them ... and over much of PdL, with a panoramic view of the ocean, I would think. 

Unfortunately we dont have a photo of that view, but we can get an idea from a much lower ground level vantage point




On the right is OC.  To the left and behind the tall slim tree is the ?watchers and fag-balcony with the apartment beyond.  The big balcony is out of view round the corner,  but basically has a view in this direction but from a higher vantage point.  There would be seats there too.

So why smoke lots of fags where:
1)  The view is largely  opressed by OC looming up
2)  There are no seats
3)  And it is just a "landing balcony" on stairways, open to anyone who is cheeky enough to go there?
When a flat occupant, using the big balcony, could have the luxury of a better view and the comfort of a seat and a cuppa tea or glass of wine?

Doesn't make sense to me, unless watching the comings to,  and goings from 5A, was the main reason.


As I said before, a brilliant watchers place.  Why didn't the PJ check it?  And test the fag ends?

Or perhaps several smokers depositing their cigarette butts before they get to their apartments ?

[sadie]

Sorry, I posted one of my images wrongly, so reposting:

It is very curious to me too.  The view from that fag-butt-balcony is not awful by any means, but directly in front looms the side of Ocean Club Apart 5A  + other apartments above.  OC is quite tall .  Several stories high.  So that  is not a good outlook.

Looking to the north is OK but nothing special.  For a watcher, there is a wonderful view of all the access routes from there.  The road that bundleman walked along is clearly viewed at its easterly end, so any one coming towards 5A from the east would be immediately spotted.  And from the shadows (the nearby lamp cast shadows) there is a view just as far as to 5A gate..  Taking a few steps into the light, the tapas restaurant and IIRC the Tapas reception could be seen, as in  the photo underneath..

A brilliant  look out place.  Why didn't the PJ check that?



As you can see the view to the south west is over OC gardens and tapas bar and outside restaurant.  The balcony is set back, so the rest of the view is cut off by the corner of the .  apartment wall.   Now narrow view that it is, that isn't bad, but not as good as surely the view would be from the massive front balcony, which would also have seats and probably tables for a drink..
 


Like the fag balcony, that view from the big balcony would also see over the OC gardens, but the whole of them ... and over much of PdL, with a panoramic view of the ocean, I would think. 

Unfortunately we dont have a photo of that view, but we can get an idea from a much lower ground level vantage point




On the right is OC.  To the left and behind the tall slim tree is the ?watchers and fag-balcony with the apartment beyond.  The big balcony is out of view round the corner,  but basically has a view in this direction but from a higher vantage point.  There would be seats there too.

So why smoke lots of fags where:
1)  The view is largely  opressed by OC looming up
2)  There are no seats
3)  And it is just a "landing balcony" on stairways, open to anyone who is cheeky enough to go there?
When a flat occupant, using the big balcony, could have the luxury of a better view and the comfort of a seat and a cuppa tea or glass of wine?

Doesn't make sense to me, unless watching the comings to,  and goings from 5A, was the main reason.


As I said before, a brilliant watchers place.  Why didn't the PJ check it?  And test the fag ends?

[gilet]

Or perhaps several smokers depositing their cigarette butts before they get to their apartments ?

And possibly not.

But the fact remains that the PJ were incompetent in not proving the matter one way or the other.

Surely you are not suggesting it is right that these policemen should have ignored such a potential lookout and the possibility that it could have been an abductor checking out things just because it might not have been?

No proper police force would have simply ignored this.

[faithlilly]

And possibly not.

But the fact remains that the PJ were incompetent in not proving the matter one way or the other.

Surely you are not suggesting it is right that these policemen should have ignored such a potential lookout and the possibility that it could have been an abductor checking out things just because it might not have been?

No proper police force would have simply ignored this.

Proving what ?

[sadie]

Proving what ?

Incompetence, it seems

IMO

[gilet]

Proving what ?

Proving that the PJ were not serving Madeleine McCann well.

Proving that, at least in part, they were a hindrance to the search for this little child, rather than an aid.

Proving that they may in fact have missed a vital chance to identify the perpetrator of an abduction if that is what happened that night.

[faithlilly]

Proving that the PJ were not serving Madeleine McCann well.

Proving that, at least in part, they were a hindrance to the search for this little child, rather than an aid.

Proving that they may in fact have missed a vital chance to identify the perpetrator of an abduction if that is what happened that night.

You misunderstood me. Let me put my question in context, you said :


'But the fact remains that the PJ were incompetent in not proving the matter one way or the other.'

So what were the PJ  supposed to prove with some probably weeks old cigarette butts ?