Author Topic: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.  (Read 167333 times)

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Offline Lace

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #180 on: August 09, 2013, 10:26:44 AM »
What i find odd, is that, we have these armchair Colombo's slating the PJ's procedures as though they too are professional investigators, yet the real Uk investigators on the ground (Leicestershire Police) at the time of the investigation and the Yard in their review since have never, once, either directly or indirectly sought to trash the investigation.

You'd think that if the investigation was as poor as the supporters of the family make out then Leicestershire Police would have come out and voiced their concerns to the world.

Yet the only time they have commentated on the investigation in a court was to say that there was no evidence the McCann's were not involved.

Something doesn't stack up, does it? If it was that bad why would LP let the PJ get away with "fitting up" Uk nationals in the manner some posters would make us believe?

Strangely enough,  we have Colombo's slating SY yard too.

SY are going down the abduction route.    They say the McCann's and their friends are NOT suspects.    Yet STILL people are saying there is no evidence of abduction and that the McCann's have something to hide.

Offline Lace

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #181 on: August 09, 2013, 10:34:22 AM »
You misunderstood me. Let me put my question in context, you said :


'But the fact remains that the PJ were incompetent in not proving the matter one way or the other.'

So what were the PJ  supposed to prove with some probably weeks old cigarette butts ?

The point is faithfully,   the PJ were investigating whether anyone has seen anything suspicious,  weren't they?

Well someone pointed out the pile of cigarette butts that looked suspicious to him,  because as he said the person who had been stood there smoking had a very good view over 5a and its surroundings.

So,   why couldn't the PJ have taken a sample of the cigarette butts?     Then if they had a suspect they could check the DNA.

Offline faithlilly

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #182 on: August 09, 2013, 10:38:43 AM »
To prevent arguments.

Faithlilly made a counter claim to my claim that finger tip searches are carried out in missing person/potential abduction cases in the UK. She stated that they are not carried out in such cases.

She is in fact completely wrong. They are done in the case of missing people and potential abductions not just murders and attacks as she claims.

For example:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-55804/Police-widen-search-missing-schoolgirl.html

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tia-sharp-police-seal-off-grandmothers-1245667

http://metro.co.uk/2008/02/26/police-search-shannon-uncles-home-9879/

http://www.theguardian.com/society/2008/feb/26/childprotection.ukcrime1

http://www.dailystar.co.uk/news/latest-news/317351/FEARS-FOR-MISSING-GEORGIA

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/ben-thompson-hunt-specialist-police-2495218

And just for interest one example from the USA.

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/search-for-missing-hiker-suspended

Thank you gilet, I've no problem with being corrected.

So from your links we have cases where searches were carried out by the police who found a body, were expecting to find a body and two about the Shannon Matthews case where it was the mother 'what dun it '

Interesting.
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Albertini

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #183 on: August 09, 2013, 10:47:12 AM »
Strangely enough,  we have Colombo's slating SY yard too.

SY are going down the abduction route.    They say the McCann's and their friends are NOT suspects.    Yet STILL people are saying there is no evidence of abduction and that the McCann's have something to hide.

"Slating"? Who is slating them?

People have doubts about SY's current hypothesis because the Yard have produced no evidence, nor reasoning to support that hypothesis, and indeed in two and half years are unable to produce anything resembling a genuine abductor suspect.

So some are quite prepared to see what evidence they have before regarding a statement made two thirds of the way through a review and 1 month into a re-investigation as definitive and total.

Some are quite prepared to see when they have concluded their investigation (not just started it) what their hypothesis and supporting evidence is then.

Some, on the other hand, regard the SY statement, made one month into an investigation, that the parents arent suspects as definitive and final simply because they want to believe it as it fits in with their own beliefs.


Offline gilet

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #184 on: August 09, 2013, 10:50:13 AM »
Thank you gilet, I've no problem with being corrected.

So from your links we have cases where searches were carried out by the police who found a body, were expecting to find a body and two about the Shannon Matthews case where it was the mother 'what dun it '

Interesting.

But not one of those cases is actually in any way similar to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann!

In your haste to admit that you were completely wrong in your initial comment, you seem to have missed that rather relevant point.

Your fixation on implying that the McCanns are guilty of some crime is becoming all too clear in this and at least one other thread.  But you are totally unwilling to explain even what that crime might actually be. Flitting from thread to thread implying that the McCanns are guilty of a crime without even being willing to suggest what that crime is, looks more like a nasty game than a serious attempt to debate the case of missing Madeleine or add to our knowledge of what might have happened to that child.

Is it just a game or do you have some other more noble motive for acting in this way and implying this about the parents of Madeleine?


Offline gilet

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #185 on: August 09, 2013, 11:06:58 AM »
What i find odd, is that, we have these armchair Colombo's slating the PJ's procedures as though they too are professional investigators, yet the real Uk investigators on the ground (Leicestershire Police) at the time of the investigation and the Yard in their review since have never, once, either directly or indirectly sought to trash the investigation.

You'd think that if the investigation was as poor as the supporters of the family make out then Leicestershire Police would have come out and voiced their concerns to the world.

Yet the only time they have commentated on the investigation in a court was to say that there was no evidence the McCann's were not involved.

Something doesn't stack up, does it? If it was that bad why would LP let the PJ get away with "fitting up" Uk nationals in the manner some posters would make us believe?

Seriously? I don't think so!

A police force charged with acting as Liaison with a foreign force actually dissing that foreign force no matter what the temptation? Not a chance, whether you think it should have happened or not. The reality is that such an action would sour relations permanently in a way which would be almost impossible to recover.

And just in case you hadn't noticed nobody has "fitted" anyone up. Are you not aware that the McCanns were not even charged with a crime? How can they have been "fitted" up? Why would LP or anyone else in the UK police or authorities jeopardise future relations when there was no crime for the McCanns to answer to? You have no way of knowing what the reaction of LP or other UK authorities might have been had such an event occurred have you?

You are simply burying your head in the sand and refusing to actually debate the failings which have been mentioned in the case and then looking for convoluted excuses to pretend that the PJ did a good job, excuses which actually don't hold water.





Offline gilet

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #186 on: August 09, 2013, 11:16:48 AM »
"Slating"? Who is slating them?

People have doubts about SY's current hypothesis because the Yard have produced no evidence, nor reasoning to support that hypothesis, and indeed in two and half years are unable to produce anything resembling a genuine abductor suspect.

So some are quite prepared to see what evidence they have before regarding a statement made two thirds of the way through a review and 1 month into a re-investigation as definitive and total.

Some are quite prepared to see when they have concluded their investigation (not just started it) what their hypothesis and supporting evidence is then.

Some, on the other hand, regard the SY statement, made one month into an investigation, that the parents arent suspects as definitive and final simply because they want to believe it as it fits in with their own beliefs.

Actually you are being extremely presumptious in pretending to know what reasons people may have for believing Scotland Yard detectives who make public statements live on television. Such presumption has no place in real debate. It merely confirms that you are unwilling to see two sides of a argument with an open mind.

And in my case you are completely wrong. That is not my reason. My reason is far more simple. Unlike others who have openly expressed a kind of paranoid distrust in all police, I retain trust because I am aware that most police officers (including a number of personal friends) do the job with a genuine commitment to justice.

I have already explained that there is no definitive statement from SY that the case is only two thirds the way through and only media reports to suggest this. Other media reports tell us otherwise. Your reliance on unconfirmed media reports when we know that the Grange team have (from the direct statements made) moved on from review to investigation of the leads which they have found is a little sad.


Offline faithlilly

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #187 on: August 09, 2013, 11:29:07 AM »
Actually you are being extremely presumptious in pretending to know what reasons people may have for believing Scotland Yard detectives who make public statements live on television. Such presumption has no place in real debate. It merely confirms that you are unwilling to see two sides of a argument with an open mind.

And in my case you are completely wrong. That is not my reason. My reason is far more simple. Unlike others who have openly expressed a kind of paranoid distrust in all police, I retain trust because I am aware that most police officers (including a number of personal friends) do the job with a genuine commitment to justice.

I have already explained that there is no definitive statement from SY that the case is only two thirds the way through and only media reports to suggest this. Other media reports tell us otherwise. Your reliance on unconfirmed media reports when we know that the Grange team have (from the direct statements made) moved on from review to investigation of the leads which they have found is a little sad.

Links please gilet  to reports that the SY review team have looked at ALL the information currently available to them and not simply two thirds ?
Brietta posted on 10/04/2022 “But whether or not that is the reason behind the delay I am certain that Brueckner's trial is going to take place.”

Let’s count the months, shall we?

Offline Albertini

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #188 on: August 09, 2013, 11:45:29 AM »
Seriously? I don't think so!

Well you wouldn't would you? You're a supporter of the Mccann's. Nothing that contradicts or casts doubt on your beliefs is going to make you "think so", is it?

A police force charged with acting as Liaison with a foreign force actually dissing that foreign force no matter what the temptation? Not a chance, whether you think it should have happened or not. The reality is that such an action would sour relations permanently in a way which would be almost impossible to recover.

It has been said that the investigation was led by a corrupt officer, that it was riddled with massive and fundamental errors which concluded under both Amaral and Almeida, that the McCann's were responsible for staging an abduction and concealing a body.

If it was as flawed as you and others have made out, and that was the conclusion, then "souring relations" wouldn't have come into it. If it was that inept and corrupt and  came to such serious conclusions against Uk nationals as a result, do you really think LP and the Foreign Office would have been bothered about souring relations?

Given LP's  and to a lesser extent the Foreign Office's pivotal role in the investigation and the co-operation they would have been guilty by association and you would fundamentally expect they would both distance themselves from the PJ and register formally that these were not their conlusions and that they were concerend about the nature of the way the case was handled.

And just in case you hadn't noticed nobody has "fitted" anyone up. Are you not aware that the McCanns were not even charged with a crime? How can they have been "fitted" up? Why would LP or anyone else in the UK police or authorities jeopardise future relations when there was no crime for the McCanns to answer to? You have no way of knowing what the reaction of LP or other UK authorities might have been had such an event occurred have you?

Oh do come off it, the condescension and apparent flippancy in your post does you no favours. Just makes you look silly and angry.

The fit up allegation has come from the McCann's, their friends and their supporters as that was what the PJ were trying to do. There is not a shred of evidence to support that.

We do know that when they were made arguido's there was no condemnation either from LP or the foreign office.

That should tell you enough, given the seriousness of the allegations. Both appeared to have been comfortable and have not then or since ever condemned the PJ's actions or decisions. 

You are simply burying your head in the sand and refusing to actually debate the failings which have been mentioned in the case and then looking for convoluted excuses to pretend that the PJ did a good job, excuses which actually don't hold water.

No I think it is you who is burying your head in the sand. The evidence shows there was not a peep of concern or condemnation issued by either LP or the Foreign Office formally or informally to register their disgust about the investigation.

You are burying your head in the sand in trying desperately to suggest the investigation was a farce and a disaster, when in reality the UK police on the ground in Portugal and indeed SY have not once ever suggested directly or indirectly that it was.

Now you can try and convince yourself you are right by thinking it was to save a diplomatic incident but common sense says had the PJ pressed forward with charges it would have been a diplomatic incident anyway.

I repeat there is no evidence from LP, the Foreign office nor SY that the investigation was as bad as you and your fellow supporters attempt to make out.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 04:22:15 PM by Angelo222 »


Offline Albertini

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #190 on: August 09, 2013, 12:01:38 PM »
First of all I refer you to this post on the subject which I made previously and which you have clearly missed.

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=2069.msg67804#msg67804

As for links, not a problem.

http://metro.co.uk/2013/07/20/scotland-yard-officers-returning-to-holiday-resort-where-madeleine-mccann-vanished-3891135/

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/417282/Scotland-Yard-s-new-leads-bring-fresh-hope-says-Madeleine-McCann-s-father

http://www.upi.com/blog/2013/07/05/Madeleine-McCann-could-still-be-alive-Scotland-Yard-says/7561373052092/

http://news.uk.msn.com/comment-and-analysis/dozen-british-suspects-as-new-maddie-probe-begins

We have the following from:

Guardian:
Quote
Officers – who are two-thirds of the way through completing their review – have been to Portugal 16 times and shared their findings with the police and the judicial authorities as new information emerges. Prosecutors from London have also travelled to Portugal as part of negotiations to pave the way for the opening of the British investigation.

Herald Scotland:

Quote
So far the team has gathered 30,500 documents. They are around two-thirds of the way through their review.

Mirror:

Quote
Operation Grange officers said the “unique” review process, which is only two-thirds complete, had already resulted in 3,800 leads.

BBC

Quote
His 37-strong police team is two-thirds of the way through examining 30,500 documents from files held by the Portuguese, private investigators and British police. Some fresh interviews have also taken place.

Express:

Quote
So far the team have gathered 30,500 documents. They are about two-thirds of the way through their review and have been to Portugal 16 times.

Sky:
Quote
They are around two-thirds of the way through their review, and so far have been to Portugal 16 times.

So as the Guardian made a correction at the request of Redwood regarding the "suspects" (to persons of interest) why would he not be seeking corrections to all these outlets saying it was only two thirds of the way through if it was complete?


Offline gilet

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #192 on: August 09, 2013, 12:20:39 PM »
My responses in blue.

Seriously? I don't think so!

Well you wouldn't would you? You're a supporter of the Mccann's. Nothing that contradicts or casts doubt on your beliefs is going to make you "think so", is it?

Again simple presumption on your part. And again you are completely wrong. I am not a supporter of anyone. If you care to read back over my posts you will see that I have often stated that there is as much potential evidence of a death of Madeleine (which, of course, would very possibly involve her parents in some way) as there is of abduction. Unlike some others I don't dismiss any potential evidence and unlike some others I do not claim there is proof of any particular action/event either. 

I am simply a supporter of the truth and the truth is that we simply do not know what happened in Praia da Luz to Madeleine McCann.


A police force charged with acting as Liaison with a foreign force actually dissing that foreign force no matter what the temptation? Not a chance, whether you think it should have happened or not. The reality is that such an action would sour relations permanently in a way which would be almost impossible to recover.

It has been said that the investigation was led by a corrupt officer, that it was riddled with massive and fundamental errors which concluded under both Amaral and Almeida, that the McCann's were responsible for staging an abduction and concealing a body.

If it was as flawed as you and others have made out, and that was the conclusion, then "souring relations" wouldn't have come into it. If it was that inept and corrupt and  came to such serious conclusions against Uk nationals as a result, do you really think LP and the Foreign Office would have been bothered about souring relations?

Given LP's  and to a lesser extent the Foreign Office's pivotal role in the investigation and the co-operation they would have been guilty by association and you would fundamentally expect they would both distance themselves from the PJ and register formally that these were not their conlusions and that they were concerend about the nature of the way the case was handled.

But that was not the conclusion. Have you not actually read the files? I replied earlier that there was no need for LP or any other UK authority to "sour relations" precisely because that was not the conclusion. There was no case against the McCanns, no evidence against the McCanns, no charges against the McCanns and no reason to sour relations. No-one knows whether LP or perhaps the Home Office would have stepped in if such charges had been made or if the case had concluded in that way. But as it didn't your point is rather redundant.

And just in case you hadn't noticed nobody has "fitted" anyone up. Are you not aware that the McCanns were not even charged with a crime? How can they have been "fitted" up? Why would LP or anyone else in the UK police or authorities jeopardise future relations when there was no crime for the McCanns to answer to? You have no way of knowing what the reaction of LP or other UK authorities might have been had such an event occurred have you?

Oh do come off it, the condasencion and apparent flippancy in your post does you no favours. Just makes you look silly and angry.

The fit up allegation has come from the McCann's, their friends and their supporters as that was what the PJ were trying to do. There is not a shred of evidence to support that.

We do know that when they were made arguido's there was no condemnation either from LP or the foreign office.

That should tell you enough, given the seriousness of the allegations. Both appeared to have been comfortable and have not then or since ever condemend the PJ's actions or decisions. 

There is no condescension (sic) in my post and most certainly no flippancy as you claim. Rather a reply to a poster who had introduced the idea of the McCanns having been fitted up. Your understanding of the situation and comments appears flawed. The fitting up may have been attempted but it failed. There were no charges.

You appear also to be wholly unaware that arguido is simply a loose analogy to "person of interest". Why would Scotland Yard, LP or anybody else object to a thorough investigation of the McCanns who would automatically in any disappearance of their own child be at least persons of interest? There is no reason for any objection as SY, LP or any other UK force would have questiioned them at least as thoroughly as the PJ did.

Such objections would only occur if the McCanns had subsequently been charged. Only then would the effort, and potentially serious action of objecting to the way the inquiry had been conducted become necessary.

The very fact it never became necessary means it never even needed to happen. Don't you see that?


You are simply burying your head in the sand and refusing to actually debate the failings which have been mentioned in the case and then looking for convoluted excuses to pretend that the PJ did a good job, excuses which actually don't hold water.

No i think it is you who is burying your head in the sand. The evidence shows there was not a peep of concern or condemnation issued by either LP or the Foreign Office formally or informally to register their disgust about the investigation.

You are burying your head in the sand in trying desperately to suggest the investigation was a farce and a disaster, when in reality the UK police on the ground in Portugal and indeed SY have not once ever suggested directly or indirectly that it was.

Now you can try and convince yourslef you are right by thinking it was to save a dimplomatic incident but common sense says had the PJ pressed forward with charges it would have been a diplomatic incident anyway.

I repeat there is no evidence from LP, the Foreign office nor SY that the investigation was as bad as you and your fellow supporters attempt to make out.

I have shown that there was never any need for the UK police to intervene in any way. Had the McCanns been charged the situation may have been very different. But it wasn't necessary for any intervention or admonishment from them.

I have also shown previously serious flaws in the way in which the case was handled by the PJ.

It is you who are burying your head in the sand by simply ignoring those fundamental flaws and attempting to divert attention from them.

Offline gilet

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #193 on: August 09, 2013, 12:31:17 PM »
We have the following from:

Guardian:
Herald Scotland:

Mirror:

BBC

Express:

Sky:
So as the Guardian made a correction at the request of Redwood regarding the "suspects" (to persons of interest) why would he not be seeking corrections to all these outlets saying it was only two thirds of the way through if it was complete?

It simply depends which media you choose to believe. I repeat there is no direct quote anywhere from Scotland Yard which confirms that two thirds claim by some of the media.

As for the correction you are asking me to either give you the definitive reason on behalf of the Guardian management or to speculate. As I cannot do the former, I will on this occasion at your behest do the latter, though it is against my better judgement to do so.

I speculate possibly that the matter corrected could have lead to potential (sic) legal complications in the event of one or more of the "persons of interest" being charged or becoming a target for extradition.

I further speculate that the matter of the length of the investigation was of no significance in that light.

Or potentially I could speculate that the headline which was corrected by the Guardian related to a direct quote which Redwood had given them and which he believed should be reported accurately whereas the matter of the two thirds had not been a direct quote and therefore needed no correction.


Offline Albertini

Re: Sadie's theory, the watcher and a getaway car.
« Reply #194 on: August 09, 2013, 12:53:34 PM »
Actually you are being extremely presumptious in pretending to know what reasons people may have for believing Scotland Yard detectives who make public statements live on television. Such presumption has no place in real debate. It merely confirms that you are unwilling to see two sides of a argument with an open mind.

Why are you being so incredibly pompous? Why can you not take part in discussions without this attempted air of superiority festering in your every post?

No i'm not being presumptious as that's basically the gist of it between the two camps.

I am not unwilling to see two sides of any argument. I am prepared to accept abduction when clear evidence demonstrates it.

I am also happy to take what has been said and use my brain to join the dots where necessary if there are any gaps.

Given we haven't got all the information readily available it's the only way one can draw conclusions in such cases.

And in my case you are completely wrong. That is not my reason. My reason is far more simple. Unlike others who have openly expressed a kind of paranoid distrust in all police, I retain trust because I am aware that most police officers (including a number of personal friends) do the job with a genuine commitment to justice.

Me too, glad we agree.

I have already explained that there is no definitive statement from SY that the case is only two thirds the way through and only media reports to suggest this. Other media reports tell us otherwise. Your reliance on unconfirmed media reports when we know that the Grange team have (from the direct statements made) moved on from review to investigation of the leads which they have found is a little sad.

There was no statement on air as such, however there was i believe an off air question and answer section where it came out. Certainly given the sheer number of media sources that reported it (and all those links i posted were from July and related to the last press conference) to know, with confidence, that it was said.