Madeleine McCann - Introduction to the case

[ferryman]

what I can see if that we have a great deal of information and theory that may eventually lead to facts, but not very much else at present that can be stated as such.

Oh actually I think we may be able to state as Fact that the couple's were dining at the tapas bar while the children were in the apartments? and had some form of checking routine, The timings of the checking regime and how it was being done I do not feel we can state as Fact - yes or no?

In the absence of CCTV dated images, timings would be somewhat approximate, I would have thought.

There is abundant evidence that regular checks were being run, including from waiters at the restaurant who comment on frequently having to return meals to the kitchen to re-heat them because guests would leave the table to check on their children.

There is also a conversation between Gerry and Jez Wilkins, related by JW, where Gerry talks about their checking regime.

Stephen Carpenter was in the restaurant on May 3rd and says that people would leave the table at very regular intervals.

It's all in the files ...

[John]

I wonder what the checks were like on any other evenings compared to the Thursday night?

[Redblossom]

I wonder what the checks were like on any other evenings compared to the Thursday night?

The Mccanns are on record saying that after Madeleine said to them on the Thursday morning that she and her sibling had woken up the night before and she wondered why they didnt come when they were cryng, that they decided to make more frequent checks on the Thursday, suggesting the earlier checks were more apart than the reported 30 minutes on the Thursday

[Matthew Wyse]

The Mccanns are on record saying that after Madeleine said to them on the Thursday morning that she and her sibling had woken up the night before and she wondered why they didnt come when they were cryng, that they decided to make more frequent checks on the Thursday, suggesting the earlier checks were more apart than the reported 30 minutes on the Thursday

didn't the dear old lady who lived permanently above the mccanns apartment tell the police that she had heard her crying for over an hour and possibly 90 minutes and that she was so concerned she telephoned a friend for advice as to what to do?

[Benice]

The Mccanns are on record saying that after Madeleine said to them on the Thursday morning that she and her sibling had woken up the night before and she wondered why they didnt come when they were cryng, that they decided to make more frequent checks on the Thursday, suggesting the earlier checks were more apart than the reported 30 minutes on the Thursday

Wednesday 2nd May was the one night they stayed out longer than usual and went into the bar.    Kate says because of that it was probably 45 mins between their last check and the time they got home.  After what Madeleine said on the morning of the 3rd they decided to stick religiously to the 30 mins checks in future.

[Wonderfulspam]

Wednesday 2nd May was the one night they stayed out longer than usual and went into the bar.    Kate says because of that it was probably 45 mins between their last check and the time they got home.  After what Madeleine said on the morning of the 3rd they decided to stick religiously to the 30 mins checks in future.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html

Nevertheless, it can also be concluded from the files that this surveillance with the periodicity that was mentioned above was not the one that is alleged in the files, which leaves unexplained why, on that night, the procedures were altered in the sense of reducing the checking intervals.

In effect, this group of friends was enjoying a short holiday period, therefore perfectly relaxed and it would be normal that, having dinner, inclusively with an entertainment service available [25], they were not very concerned with anything that might happen to their children during that dinner period.

It is so much so that Kate herself mentions that on Thursday morning, the 3rd, Madeleine questioned her about the reason why they didn't come to her room, given the fact that the twins had cried [26], as was also mentioned by Gerald.

Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.

This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.


They didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did,"



 

[Benice]

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id136.html

Nevertheless, it can also be concluded from the files that this surveillance with the periodicity that was mentioned above was not the one that is alleged in the files, which leaves unexplained why, on that night, the procedures were altered in the sense of reducing the checking intervals.

In effect, this group of friends was enjoying a short holiday period, therefore perfectly relaxed and it would be normal that, having dinner, inclusively with an entertainment service available [25], they were not very concerned with anything that might happen to their children during that dinner period.

It is so much so that Kate herself mentions that on Thursday morning, the 3rd, Madeleine questioned her about the reason why they didn't come to her room, given the fact that the twins had cried [26], as was also mentioned by Gerald.

Pamela Fenn, who resides on the residential block's first floor, above the apartment that was occupied by the McCann family, clarified that on the 1st of May 2007, two days before her disappearance, at around 10.30 p.m., she heard a child crying, which from the sound would be MADELEINE and that she cried for an hour and fifteen minutes, until her parents arrived, at around 11.57 p.m.

This shows that the parents were not persistently worried about their children [and] that they didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did, rather neglecting their duty to guard those same children, although not in a temerarious, or gross, manner.


They didn't check on them like they afterwards declared they did,"

IIRC Mrs Fenn didn't name any child - just a child crying in the floor below.   On the 1st May Russell didn't go to dinner because his daughter wasn't well.    It might have been his daughter Mrs Fenn heard crying.  Children do cry when they're poorly.     Or if Madeleine was crying for that length of time on 1st May so loudly that she could be heard on the floor above - then wouldn't Russell also have heard her?    Would Sean and Amelie have stayed asleep with Madeleine crying so loudly just inches away from them for such a long time? 

Too many ifs and buts for me to come to any firm conclusions I'm afraid  - except to say that it's a pity that the PJ didn't interview Mrs Fenn and any other people occupying apartments on the floor above as a matter of urgency.  Were her phone records ever checked to confirm the date?  I don't know.

[Wonderfulspam]

IIRC Mrs Fenn didn't name any child - just a child crying in the floor below.   On the 1st May Russell didn't go to dinner because his daughter wasn't well.    It might have been his daughter Mrs Fenn heard crying.  Children do cry when they're poorly.     Or if Madeleine was crying for that length of time on 1st May so loudly that she could be heard on the floor above - then wouldn't Russell also have heard her?    Would Sean and Amelie have stayed asleep with Madeleine crying so loudly just inches away from them for such a long time? 

Too many ifs and buts for me to come to any firm conclusions I'm afraid  - except to say that it's a pity that the PJ didn't interview Mrs Fenn and any other people occupying apartments on the floor above as a matter of urgency.  Were her phone records ever checked to confirm the date?  I don't know.

Would Sean and Amelie have stayed asleep with Madeleine crying so loudly just inches away from them for such a long time? 

Sedation perhaps, the twins didn't wake when Kate raised the alarm either, but then.....

"I know that what happened is not due to the fact of us leaving the children asleep. I know it happened under other circumstances." (Source: Flash! magazine (Portugal)/The Daily Mail

[Benice]

Would Sean and Amelie have stayed asleep with Madeleine crying so loudly just inches away from them for such a long time? 

Sedation perhaps, the twins didn't wake when Kate raised the alarm either, but then.....

 "I know that what happened is not due to the fact of us leaving the children asleep. I know it happened under other circumstances." (Source: Flash! magazine (Portugal)/The Daily Mail

But then that raises the question why would Madeleine have woken up if she had been sedated?

Yes there was a lot of noise in 5A after the alarm was raised - but once the door was closed, which I believe it was, that would become 'background' noise - not the same as prolonged loud crying and shouting right next to the the twins and in the same room.

There was traffic though the bedroom, but I think people would tend to keep the noise to a minimum in in there  - simply because the twins could be seen fast asleep.  IMO that is a normal reaction when going into a room where a child is sleeping.

The tests carried out much later on  - on the twins and Kate showed that no sedatives had been administered - but I don't think that test could be claimed to be 100% accurate.     So who knows?

[AnneGuedes]

In spite of your "imo" and your "normal reaction" arguments, none of the people present agrees with you. All including police officers, doctors, OC staff and even their mother were amazed that both twins kept sleeping in such a noisy environment.
The tests were done one month too late (4 months after) to prove anything.

[Redblossom]

Nearly 5  months later, end of sept 07 according to the book Madeleine.....what kind of parent thinks her kids were sedated on the night and waits five months to get them tested?

[AnneGuedes]

Benice goes on spreading disinformation, i.e beliefs without supporting evidence, following Carana's insidious comments about late Mrs Fenn.
The O'Brien flat is located about 15/20 m far from the 5A and Mrs Fenn occupied all the space (and actually more, she had a room above 5B) above 5A. She lived all year long in this building and she didn't hesitate in saying from which flat the crying came and how this stopped when the sliding door was opened.
The objective is this disinformation is dual :
negate the McCann kids could wake up and cry (though the McCanns reported two episodes of crying)
negate the McCann checks were more than half an hour (though they themselves admitted it could happen).

[Benice]

Nearly 5  months later, end of sept 07 according to the book Madeleine.....what kind of parent thinks her kids were sedated on the night and waits five months to get them tested?

And what lead investigator ignores the parents queries via their FLO about the possibility of drugs being used and does nothing?

[Redblossom]

And what lead investigator ignores the parents queries via their FLO about the possibility of drugs being used and does nothing?

Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.


Specific to Madeleine, not the twins! the PJ did tests on her bed for gases that may have been used, negative results.......whereas Kate Mccann wondered but waited months to get her kids tested....highly odd

[Benice]

Gerry and Kate also questioned whether there was any suggestion that pointed to the use of drugs to facilitate Madeleine's abduction.


Specific to Madeleine, not the twins! the PJ did tests on her bed for gases that may have been used, negative results.......whereas Kate Mccann wondered but waited months to get her kids tested....highly odd

Oh come on Red, be fair.    Of course the McCanns were thinking about the twins as well as Madeleine when it came to the question of sedation - and to keep trying to transfer the blame onto them for shoddy policework is not fair.      They made more than one enquiry to the PJ - but nothing was done.