Author Topic: The timeline revisited  (Read 54404 times)

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Offline G-Unit

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2550 on: November 16, 2021, 11:01:07 AM »
So the DNA rsults were of no consequence whatever the results.

According to the FSS, no.
England - good effort

Offline Vertigo Swirl

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2551 on: November 16, 2021, 11:14:30 AM »
According to the FSS, no.
But whatever the result they would have been of no consequence, even 100% match to Madeleine would have established precisely nothing about what happened to her.
I no longer read nor reply to posts made by those posters I perceive to be WUMS and TROLLS so if you think I'm ignoring you this may be the reason.  Best wishes.

Offline Carana

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2552 on: November 16, 2021, 02:34:23 PM »
But whatever the result they would have been of no consequence, even 100% match to Madeleine would have established precisely nothing about what happened to her.

Agree, except in certain circumances. If an uncontaminated full profile had been found in eg the car boot / home of a total stranger (the French MaŽlys case), or even in 5a if there had been inexplicable traces of blood spatter where the person lived (Meredith).

Neither of which were found in this case.

Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2553 on: November 17, 2021, 01:46:12 AM »
Agree, except in certain circumances. If an uncontaminated full profile had been found in eg the car boot / home of a total stranger (the French MaŽlys case), or even in 5a if there had been inexplicable traces of blood spatter where the person lived (Meredith).

Neither of which were found in this case.

That would be my understanding too.

I do wonder why no efforts were made to identify the "human cellular material" collected from the car and under the tiles as blood in the car and a 100% match would have been significant evidence. The technology to identify the type of bodily fluids does exist - but isn't a factor of DNA analysis only.

3.1.1 Biofluid/tissue identification

The classification of human body fluids (blood, semen, saliva, vaginal fluid, menstrual blood, etc.) associated with crime scenes or other evidence is known as forensic serology. The fundamental question is about the nature of the body fluid, not the identity of the donor. Conventional DNA analysis can determine the identity of the donor, but cannot distinguish one type of fluid from another. Typical forensic serology approaches (discussed in [9Ė11]) rely on chemical or biochemical tests, for instance, based on the peroxidase-like activity of the heme group of hemoglobin; or on antibody-based tests for the presence of proteins that are regarded as biomarkers for a particular fluid, such as semenogelin or prostate-specific antigen for semen, hemoglobin for blood, alpha-amylase for saliva, etc. Often, multiple tests on a single sample are required, with the accompanying disadvantages of low throughput and high sample requirements. Proteomics, by contrast, has the potential to screen for all types of body fluids, and to detect multiple protein markers, in a single experiment with less sample consumption than traditional tests. Further, sample preparation for targeted proteomics can be compatible with sample preparation for conventional DNA analysis.

Van Steendam et al. [11] used untargeted proteomics to determine a set of marker proteins for various biological fluids, and constructed a decision tree algorithm to determine the identity of the body fluid based on the presence or absence of the marker proteins. Their results indicate that this approach is able to correctly identify semen, vaginal secretions, blood (including distinguishing between human and bovine blood, and between peripheral and menstrual blood), saliva, and mixtures of these fluids in a blind test of simulated samples, as well as real forensic samples, including clothing and swabs from various surfaces. The success of the decision tree approach highlights the power of the inherently multiplexed nature of untargeted proteomicsómultiple markers increase the specificity of the test. Legg et al., [9] have also used untargeted proteomics approaches to identify protein markers for forensically relevant biofluids, arriving at a larger but partially overlapping list of markers. They have additionally used those results to develop more sensitive and quantitative targeted proteomics assays, and validated the new targeted assays in a larger cohort of volunteers [10]. (This workflow mirrors the typical approach to detect biomarkers for human diseases and is potentially very powerful in a variety of forensic applications.)

The use of quantitative protein abundance measurements is critical to this application, because a protein that is highly expressed in, and even characteristic of, one fluid may still be present in others, Therefore, detection of that protein is insufficient to identify the body fluid. Composite signatures based on the relative abundance of multiple proteins can overcome this problem. These composite signatures could be as simple as the ratios of different proteins, or they could involve more sophisticated machine learning approaches. For instance, Kushner et al., have shown that machine learning techniques applied to protein abundance data can distinguish various tissues and organs with high accuracy [87].

In a related application, Dammeier et al. [88] conducted proteomics analysis of tissue residue from bullets, with the goal of matching bullets to bullet wound tracks of gunshot victims. These bullets were pressed through or fired into various bovine organs, and the recovered proteins matched with the known organs. These data were then fed to a machine-learning algorithm to predict the organ from the list of detected proteins. The method successfully identified organs in test cases, but was only partially successful on bullets recovered from an actual homicide case, because some bullets passed through multiple organs. Although this effort was only a partial success, obtaining high-quality proteomics data from trace samples of this type is a significant technical achievement that will likely be relevant to future applications.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/medicine-and-dentistry/forensic-serology

Offline Carana

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2554 on: November 17, 2021, 05:34:33 PM »
That would be my understanding too.

I do wonder why no efforts were made to identify the "human cellular material" collected from the car and under the tiles as blood in the car and a 100% match would have been significant evidence. The technology to identify the type of bodily fluids does exist - but isn't a factor of DNA analysis only.

(Snip)

If there had been more than a few alleles on the swabs, they wouldn't have had to resort to LCN.





How significant could a meagre low-level result of a few alleles


Offline Billy Whizz Fan Club

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2555 on: November 23, 2021, 12:31:02 AM »
If there had been more than a few alleles on the swabs, they wouldn't have had to resort to LCN.





How significant could a meagre low-level result of a few alleles

I'd like to see that question put to Dr Purlin.

Offline The General

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2556 on: December 16, 2021, 01:11:50 PM »
I'd like to see that question put to Dr Purlin.
Well it's a bit like the dogs; only of value when the shoe's on the other foot.
Youngest and Most Intelligent Member of the Forum (by some considerable distance)

Offline Davel

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2557 on: December 16, 2021, 01:33:35 PM »
Well it's a bit like the dogs; only of value when the shoe's on the other foot.

Doesn't matter what foot.. The alerts cannot be relied upon

Offline Davel

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2558 on: December 16, 2021, 01:36:47 PM »
I'd like to see that question put to Dr Purlin.

Perlin could explain how reliable his tests are when their are four family members in the mix.  Why involve perlin if there's proof of abduction bby a paedophile

Offline The General

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2559 on: December 16, 2021, 01:52:45 PM »
Doesn't matter what foot.. The alerts cannot be relied upon
So if they're hypothetically used as evidence against CB to bolster a case - still not relied upon as having no evidentiary value?
Youngest and Most Intelligent Member of the Forum (by some considerable distance)

Offline Davel

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2560 on: December 16, 2021, 02:11:31 PM »
So if they're hypothetically used as evidence against CB to bolster a case - still not relied upon as having no evidentiary value?

No evidential value.. Grime said he trains digs to recover evidence... They don't seem very successful.. So Harrison and Grime came up with the idea in 2005 to use the alerts as intelligence.. Grime took things one step further and decided they could be used ss evidence... That's what attracted the FBIs attention imo


Offline The General

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2561 on: December 16, 2021, 02:17:12 PM »
No evidential value.. Grime said he trains digs to recover evidence... They don't seem very successful.. So Harrison and Grime came up with the idea in 2005 to use the alerts as intelligence.. Grime took things one step further and decided they could be used ss evidence... That's what attracted the FBIs attention imo
You know that's all false, and once again, you'd poo your kecks rather than email him with those scurrilous accusations. Post it on Facebook minus the 'imo'.
Let's hark back to Martin Grime assisting Prof. Casella in his most recent academic studies. 'The go to' man, or words to that effect.
He didn't invent an industry, he perfected it.
Have you read Prof Casella's most recent publication, or has he disappointed you enough already?
Youngest and Most Intelligent Member of the Forum (by some considerable distance)

Offline Davel

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2562 on: December 16, 2021, 02:25:02 PM »
You know that's all false, and once again, you'd poo your kecks rather than email him with those scurrilous accusations. Post it on Facebook minus the 'imo'.
Let's hark back to Martin Grime assisting Prof. Casella in his most recent academic studies. 'The go to' man, or words to that effect.
He didn't invent an industry, he perfected it.
Have you read Prof Casella's most recent publication, or has he disappointed you enough already?

Don't judge everyone by your own cowardly persona.. I'd be more than happy to day it to his face... And more.  I've asked Mark S for an online discussion... And Simia Poulton.. They are the cowardly little weasels who only engage with sycophants.  Everything I've posted is factual apart fom my opinion in the FBI.. But we, all know if you have a so called expert who will stand up and say what you want him to say.. It's very useful..

According to Grime it was, Harrison who came up with the idea in 2005..there's more but I'll leave you to your ignorance

Offline Davel

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2563 on: December 16, 2021, 02:27:39 PM »
You know that's all false, and once again, you'd poo your kecks rather than email him with those scurrilous accusations. Post it on Facebook minus the 'imo'.
Let's hark back to Martin Grime assisting Prof. Casella in his most recent academic studies. 'The go to' man, or words to that effect.
He didn't invent an industry, he perfected it.
Have you read Prof Casella's most recent publication, or has he disappointed you enough already?

I'll go further.. Grime saw an opportunity to make a business out of the alerts.. He used the film in Luz to promote it.  Made 90K in Jersey for finding s coconut snd that was, about it

Offline Brietta

Re: The timeline revisited
« Reply #2564 on: December 16, 2021, 03:03:20 PM »
I'll go further.. Grime saw an opportunity to make a business out of the alerts.. He used the film in Luz to promote it.  Made 90K in Jersey for finding s coconut snd that was, about it
The promotional video was used  while it was still under "secrecy of justice" rules.

It was evidence - if it was the one referred to in the files as having a time and date stamp on it.


As the emails to Coupland demonstrate, at first Harper displayed a healthy scepticism. So what made him change his mind? According to a senior detective who worked on Harper's team, one factor was sniffer dog Eddie's handler, Martin Grime.

'Grime made a presentation, showing him [Harper] a video of the dog finding the "scent of death" in Kate and Gerry McCann's car,' the detective said.

'They were still formal suspects and the case had got worldwide publicity. It seemed to get Lenny very excited. I think Grime kind of bewitched him.'

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

Yet Grime, who had left South Yorkshire police in July 2007 and was selling his dogs' services through his private business, had failed to keep up the Association of Chief Police Officers (ACPO) licence that certified Eddie as a police 'cadaver dog'.

Grime did have a second sniffer dog, Keela, but its licence expired a fortnight after they arrived in Jersey.

ACPO rules governing UK police dogs state: 'Dog and handler teams that fail to remain in-licence are deemed "not competent".'

Grime admitted to The Mail on Sunday that the dog's licence had lapsed. He said: 'After I retired, my dogs were tested according to my own standards which are more stringent than ACPO's. But Jersey is not in the UK, so they were in their rights to employ whoever they wanted.'


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1217863/Bungled-Jersey-child-abuse-probe-branded-20million-shambles.html



Interestingly Martin Grime appears to have been working as a private contractor during his time in Luz.

He retired from South Yorkshire police in July.

The question is - exactly when did Eddie's accreditation as a cadaver dog expire.
"All I'm going to say is that we've conducted a very serious investigation and there's no indication that Madeleine McCann's parents are connected to her disappearance. On the other hand, we have a lot of evidence pointing out that Christian killed her," Wolter told the "Friday at 9"....