Author Topic: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!  (Read 249638 times)

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Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1350 on: May 18, 2015, 12:47:54 PM »
Only a policeman knows what goes on in the real world, the belief that such things never occur in the UK is false I'm afraid.

To put the Leonor Cipriano torture into perspective, it was more of a mild beating with a cardboard roll than a torture.  You have to understand the circumstances to fully comprehend why several detectives put themselves in that position.

A youngster was missing and a mother and uncle were admitting to foul play but refusing to say where she was located or at least were giving false indications. 

Do you not think that in those circumstances something needed to be done quickly in order to have any chance of finding her dead or alive?  It was a case of do something and do it quickly.

Was a child's life not worth a few bruises?

Interesting point of view John.  Where do you draw the line?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=leonor+cipriano+photos+of+bruises&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=699&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=F9FZVaPKOqLQ7Aaw3IK4AQ&ved=0CCAQsAQ

Offline Mr Gray

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1351 on: May 18, 2015, 01:04:09 PM »
Only a policeman knows what goes on in the real world, the belief that such things never occur in the UK is false I'm afraid.

To put the Leonor Cipriano torture into perspective, it was more of a mild beating with a cardboard roll than a torture.  You have to understand the circumstances to fully comprehend why several detectives put themselves in that position.

A youngster was missing and a mother and uncle were admitting to foul play but refusing to say where she was located or at least were giving false indications. 

Do you not think that in those circumstances something needed to be done quickly in order to have any chance of finding her dead or alive?  It was a case of do something and do it quickly.

Was a child's life not worth a few bruises?

if that's the way the police think..as you have confirmed...is it surprising that the mccanns fled Portugal....

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1352 on: May 18, 2015, 01:05:37 PM »
Only a policeman knows what goes on in the real world, the belief that such things never occur in the UK is false I'm afraid.

To put the Leonor Cipriano torture into perspective, it was more of a mild beating with a cardboard roll than a torture.  You have to understand the circumstances to fully comprehend why several detectives put themselves in that position.

A youngster was missing and a mother and uncle were admitting to foul play but refusing to say where she was located or at least were giving false indications. 

Do you not think that in those circumstances something needed to be done quickly in order to have any chance of finding her dead or alive?  It was a case of do something and do it quickly.

Was a child's life not worth a few bruises?

What makes you think that they were looking for a living child? The GNR had searched for her; the initial PJ team in Portimão had been trying to follow up potential leads. Then big boots from Faro came in and wafted a black torch around and decided the child had been murdered for some inexplicable reason. If that had happened there was no child to potentially save.

I find that there's a difference between really wanting to get to the truth of the matter and simply wanting to get a conviction, irrespective of whether the person is the real perpetrator or not.

I do take the more general point of tense time-sensitive situations that the police must face from time to time - hostages, a bomb about to blow up, etc., but then a modern police force would have a massive crisis team checking out and cross-checking every bit of information and specialist officers trained in getting information out of suspects in dynamic situations.


Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1353 on: May 18, 2015, 01:12:03 PM »
What makes you think that they were looking for a living child? The GNR had searched for her; the initial PJ team in Portimão had been trying to follow up potential leads. Then big boots from Faro came in and wafted a black torch around and decided the child had been murdered for some inexplicable reason. If that had happened there was no child to potentially save.

I find that there's a difference between really wanting to get to the truth of the matter and simply wanting to get a conviction, irrespective of whether the person is the real perpetrator or not.

I do take the more general point of tense time-sensitive situations that the police must face from time to time - hostages, a bomb about to blow up, etc., but then a modern police force would have a massive crisis team checking out and cross-checking every bit of information and specialist officers trained in getting information out of suspects in dynamic situations.

They were looking for a child Carana.  Surely even a dead child deserves a decent burial?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1354 on: May 18, 2015, 01:13:39 PM »
What makes you think that they were looking for a living child? The GNR had searched for her; the initial PJ team in Portimão had been trying to follow up potential leads. Then big boots from Faro came in and wafted a black torch around and decided the child had been murdered for some inexplicable reason. If that had happened there was no child to potentially save.

I find that there's a difference between really wanting to get to the truth of the matter and simply wanting to get a conviction, irrespective of whether the person is the real perpetrator or not.

I do take the more general point of tense time-sensitive situations that the police must face from time to time - hostages, a bomb about to blow up, etc., but then a modern police force would have a massive crisis team checking out and cross-checking every bit of information and specialist officers trained in getting information out of suspects in dynamic situations.

Why is torture a bad idea?  Because the main motivation of a person under torture is to make it stop.  They will therefore say anything, agree to anything, confess to anything, to make it end.  Even if innocent.  They are also mentally vulnerable and thus open to suggestion.

So as a technique for obtaining information it is very badly flawed.  And is far more likely to lead a police investigation down the wrong path than it is to help.


Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1355 on: May 18, 2015, 01:14:53 PM »
if that's the way the police think..as you have confirmed...is it surprising that the mccanns fled Portugal....

As a civilian I'm not in the least surprised you are surprised.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Online Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1356 on: May 18, 2015, 01:16:19 PM »

If The PJ were genuinely looking for the child or her body then it didn't work, did it.  Probably because the poor woman didn't know.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1357 on: May 18, 2015, 01:17:10 PM »
Interesting point of view John.  Where do you draw the line?

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=leonor+cipriano+photos+of+bruises&sa=N&biw=1440&bih=699&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=F9FZVaPKOqLQ7Aaw3IK4AQ&ved=0CCAQsAQ

That is the $60 million question Jean-Pierre.  In a fast moving situation things often happen which might not have happened otherwise.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline John

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1358 on: May 18, 2015, 01:20:01 PM »
If The PJ were genuinely looking for the child or her body then it didn't work, did it.  Probably because the poor woman didn't know.

I tend to agree Eleanor, I still believe João hid her.
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Online Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1359 on: May 18, 2015, 01:26:27 PM »
I tend to agree Eleanor, I still believe João hid her.

Did they beat up Joao, do you know?

Offline Carana

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1360 on: May 18, 2015, 01:42:53 PM »
Did they beat up Joao, do you know?

Leandro seems to have thought so (he and others apparently were "mishandled"). João may not have been a particularly likeable character: a previous conviction - however safe that may have been remains undetermined - and he smoked dope, but no one seems to have really defended him beyond the mere minimum and has been left to rot in jail. His pro bono lawyer had assumed that the case would be thrown out and argued that he simply didn't have the intelligence to cover up such a crime.

Perhaps he is some kind of psychopath, but perhaps not. There's no case-related evidence aside from this surreal "reconstruction" that he somehow ended up taking part in. I've no idea what kind of pressure there may have been - the prospect of being kept away from other prisoners as opposed to being beaten to a pulp in jail by the PJ or other inmates might have been a motivation.

Online Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1361 on: May 18, 2015, 01:46:58 PM »
Leandro seems to have thought so (he and others apparently were "mishandled"). João may not have been a particularly likeable character: a previous conviction - however safe that may have been remains undetermined - and he smoked dope, but no one seems to have really defended him beyond the mere minimum and has been left to rot in jail. His pro bono lawyer had assumed that the case would be thrown out and argued that he simply didn't have the intelligence to cover up such a crime.

Perhaps he is some kind of psychopath, but perhaps not. There's no case-related evidence aside from this surreal "reconstruction" that he somehow ended up taking part in. I've no idea what kind of pressure there may have been - the prospect of being kept away from other prisoners as opposed to being beaten to a pulp in jail by the PJ or other inmates might have been a motivation.

And the thought of being visited by Amaral in jail.

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1362 on: May 18, 2015, 01:48:12 PM »

Online Eleanor

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1363 on: May 18, 2015, 01:53:06 PM »

Offline Jean-Pierre

Re: The Leonor Cipriano case reviewed... AGAIN!
« Reply #1364 on: May 18, 2015, 01:59:05 PM »
That is the $60 million question Jean-Pierre.  In a fast moving situation things often happen which might not have happened otherwise.

It is emphatically NOT a "$60 million question" John. 

For many reasons beating up a suspect, or use of torture to elicit a "confession" is always wrong.  And simply cannot be condoned.  I am surprised and revolted that you should think its fine. 

Especially given the name of this forum. 

I think a withdrawal of your comments or an explanation of your reasoning is in order.