Author Topic: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?  (Read 26940 times)

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Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2018, 05:27:03 PM »
David are you going to withdraw your comment that I was being "catty" towards MT QC on the basis he blocked my emails?

Are you now prepared to accept I was critical of him in that he pursued hearsay evidence from DI Cook re soc in kitchen disturbed and yet overlooked direct evidence from A/PS Woodcock which shows SC was disturbed in between his observations and SOC images taken?

The above is just the top of the iceberg.  I will go through the other points when I have time.

David I said above I would go through the appeal and critique it which I'll do on the relevant thread.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #61 on: April 09, 2018, 02:18:37 PM »
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=9335.msg455914#msg455914

From David

LOL. You are grilling the poor guy on the basis of a sugar coated appeal summary for public consumption and not actual appeal transcripts of the hearing itself. More or less judging a book by its cover.

The Judges wont accept the police moved the body unless the police admit to such. A single discrepancy is not direct proof of anything. The prosecution had Vanezis look into this back in 1985/6 and never brought it forward at trial. Thus its not admissible for the prosecution to submit it into evidence and thus Ismali was not brought forward to testify at the appeal for the same reason Dr Lloyd was not called to testify either.

Likewise MTQC did not dispute that Cooks statement was hearsay. The reasoning MTQC put forward was that since DI Cook could not remember who reported that information to him come the time of his 2001 statements. And that Ainsley also documented police causing the mess back in 1985. Not disclosing this information back in 1986 deprived the defence counsel of persuing the matter and thus could not cross examine Cook on the issue or ascertain the identification of the officer who reported that information to him with memory fresh in his mind. 
The point was that If the authorities had played fair and disclosed this information the argument put in-front of the Jury would have been very different.
Make sense?


From Holly

"Poor guy","sugar coated"? Did he serve you organic milk and homemade biscuits when you shared a coffee with him in chambers?

Where in Dr Vanezis' testimony does it mention anything about bodies being moved or not?  Afaik all he has ever said is that rigor mortis was well established and hypostasis was consistent with the position in which SC was found at the scene.   

A/PS Woodcock was one of the first to observe SC.  He stated SC's head was slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker:

 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

A/PS Woodcock's WS regarding SC's position at approx 7.30am amounts to direct evidence and contradicts soc images of SC taken at approx 10.30am by DC Bird showing SC's head flat to the floor and to the left of the bedside locker.  SC was moved by either a member of EP or Dr Craig between the time she was first observed and the time she was photographed.  By moving SC it is obvious all items found resting on her person or in close proximity eg rifle and bible moved too. 

This is something the defence should have pursued not the prosecution?!  I've no idea why you are making ref to prosecution above?

The judges will not have a problem accepting a member of EP or Dr Craig moved SC since there's clear evidence of such from an acting police sergeant.  It seems to me David it's only you that has a problem with it.  Probably on the basis that it wasn't you who identified it and it doesn't fit with all your other theories.

I've always thought SC's head doesn't look right in soc images and in the past I've posted to this effect.  Her head would have fallen straight back and this is in fact what happened.

There's no real evidence anything was moved in the kitchen and imo it seems unlikely anything was moved.   An experienced lawyer would surely appreciate DI Cook's evidence was simply hearsay and not capable of being advanced. 

So in answer to your question no your post doesn't make sense to me.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #62 on: April 09, 2018, 02:33:36 PM »
Here's retired DCI Gradwell's take on how serious an issue it is where the soc has been disturbed:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yPRd912xv9M

@ about 8 min in.

Jurors at trial heard SC's hand was moved by DI Cook to enable DC Bird to photograph bloodstains underneath.  The jury didn't hear SC was moved by EP or Dr Craig as stated in the post above.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #63 on: April 09, 2018, 06:28:41 PM »
Where in Dr Vanezis' testimony does it mention anything about bodies being moved or not?  Afaik all he has ever said is that rigor mortis was well established and hypostasis was consistent with the position in which SC was found at the scene.


It doesn't. Like I said it was looked into but the prosecution never brought it up at trial. Hence it cannot be submitted.




A/PS Woodcock was one of the first to observe SC.  He stated SC's head was slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker:

 http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=166.0;attach=251

A/PS Woodcock's WS regarding SC's position at approx 7.30am amounts to direct evidence and contradicts soc images of SC taken at approx 10.30am by DC Bird showing SC's head flat to the floor and to the left of the bedside locker.  SC was moved by either a member of EP or Dr Craig between the time she was first observed and the time she was photographed.  By moving SC it is obvious all items found resting on her person or in close proximity eg rifle and bible moved too. 

This is something the defence should have pursued not the prosecution?!  I've no idea why you are making ref to prosecution above?

The judges will not have a problem accepting a member of EP or Dr Craig moved SC since there's clear evidence of such from an acting police sergeant.  It seems to me David it's only you that has a problem with it.  Probably on the basis that it wasn't you who identified it and it doesn't fit with all your other theories.

I've always thought SC's head doesn't look right in soc images and in the past I've posted to this effect.  Her head would have fallen straight back and this is in fact what happened.

There's no real evidence anything was moved in the kitchen and imo it seems unlikely anything was moved.   An experienced lawyer would surely appreciate DI Cook's evidence was simply hearsay and not capable of being advanced. 

So in answer to your question no your post doesn't make sense to me.

It was not just DI Cooks evidence in that ground. It was also in a report written by Ainsley and also in the Dickinson enquiry. Is that hearsay also?

Saying Woodcocks statement is direct evidence police moved the body is like saying Dr Craigs statement is direct proof that the police inflicted the second shot by accident. It does not hold water.

The biggest problem I have with Woodcocks statement is the fact that blood is running straight down sheila's cheek and also running over and down her other cheek to her eye. If she was found with her head resting upwards I would expect the blood on her right cheek to be more diagonal and I would also expect no blood running up her face at all. For this reason alone I dont believe her head was resting on anything. Thats not to say I dont believe the police moved her. Unless you want to argue that they moved her up onto the cabinet then pulled her back down again?
« Last Edit: April 09, 2018, 06:30:53 PM by David1819 »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #64 on: April 09, 2018, 09:43:12 PM »
It doesn't. Like I said it was looked into but the prosecution never brought it up at trial. Hence it cannot be submitted.



Where's the evidence the prosecution looked into this at trial?  It should have been something the defence brought up at trial and just further evidence of a poor defence at trial and appeal hearings.  An appeal point should include 'poor defence' at trial and appeal hearings.

It was not just DI Cooks evidence in that ground. It was also in a report written by Ainsley and also in the Dickinson enquiry. Is that hearsay also?

Doesn't matter it was not direct evidence ie evidence they observed directly it was all hearsay.

Saying Woodcocks statement is direct evidence police moved the body is like saying Dr Craigs statement is direct proof that the police inflicted the second shot by accident. It does not hold water.

You have been advised numerous times by just about everyone on both forums that Dr Craig was not tasked with counting gsw's.  He only listed 1 gsw per victim despite the fact all sustained multiple gsw's.  His role was to certify death not to count gsw's.  How could he do so when all except NB were prone?  How would he know if  victims sustained gsw's to their undersides without disturbing them?  No one is disputing SC sustained 2 gsw's.

The biggest problem I have with Woodcocks statement is the fact that blood is running straight down sheila's cheek and also running over and down her other cheek to her eye. If she was found with her head resting upwards I would expect the blood on her right cheek to be more diagonal and I would also expect no blood running up her face at all. For this reason alone I dont believe her head was resting on anything. Thats not to say I dont believe the police moved her. Unless you want to argue that they moved her up onto the cabinet then pulled her back down again?

Expert opinion begs to differ:

Forensic Scientist Martyn Ismail

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

A/PS Woodcock's WS:

"I was aware that Sheila Bamber was lying flat on her back with her head slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=166.0

SoC image of SC - viewer discretion advised

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sheila+caffell+scene+of+crime&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB782GB782&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicmL3vhq7aAhXKC8AKHZvBCA0QsAQIJg&biw=1217&bih=577#imgrc=T2Z-5wdxyrX9RM:
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #65 on: April 10, 2018, 01:24:10 AM »
Where's the evidence the prosecution looked into this at trial? 


I just posted the appeal transcript that makes reference to it.

It should have been something the defence brought up at trial and just further evidence of a poor defence at trial and appeal hearings.  An appeal point should include 'poor defence' at trial and appeal hearings.


You are saying the defence should have raised the issue of Sheila's dead body moving. In-front of the trial Jury  while the prosecution decided not to even play the card and keep shtoom about it? As part of a defence strategy to persuade a jury that Sheila committed suicide? That would be serious malpractice if you ask me. That's insane!

The prosecution never brought it forward and thus the defence have nothing to argue against. Nor would the defence raise the issue on their initiative. Because it does not help them at all.

We can only speculate why the prosecution never brought this forward but I can narrow it down to two most likely reasons.

A) The opinion from Vanezis didn't favour the prosecution case

or

B) They knew that by introducing it they risked the possibility of the defence cross examining the firearms unit etc on the issue and it would open a can worms and backfire. 

Take your pick. Whatever the answer not much we can do now.


You have been advised numerous times by just about everyone on both forums that Dr Craig was not tasked with counting gsw's.  He only listed 1 gsw per victim despite the fact all sustained multiple gsw's.  His role was to certify death not to count gsw's.  How could he do so when all except NB were prone?  How would he know if  victims sustained gsw's to their undersides without disturbing them?  No one is disputing SC sustained 2 gsw's.

The only person I know of who defends Dr Craig is you.

In a statement where he is asked to describe what happened that morning

"I saw only one gunshot wound at that stage" - Dr Craig.

Why didn't he see the other gunshot would that was right infront of him? Because he is not a competent or reliable witness.

Why did he feel this was important enough to warrant a mention in the statement? Because as he recalls it in his mind he only saw one gunshot wound. And with retrospect knowing she had two wounds that he should have observed, to him that was not there. Hence he felt it was important to mention.

Dr Craigs sloppy and negligent work has only resulted in people thinking the police shot Sheila the second time by accident while moving the rifle on her chest. His evidence should be thrown out en masse.

 

Expert opinion begs to differ:

Forensic Scientist Martyn Ismail

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

http://www.homepage-link.to/justice/judgements/Bamber/index.html

A/PS Woodcock's WS:

"I was aware that Sheila Bamber was lying flat on her back with her head slightly raised as it was against a bedside locker".

http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=166.0

SoC image of SC - viewer discretion advised

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=sheila+caffell+scene+of+crime&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-GBGB782GB782&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwicmL3vhq7aAhXKC8AKHZvBCA0QsAQIJg&biw=1217&bih=577#imgrc=T2Z-5wdxyrX9RM:

Mr Ismail's evidence was not sucessfully submitted into evidence for reasons already mentioned. As a result Mr Ismail was not called to testify at the appeal hearing for cross examination. Nor did the defence need to hire a counter expert to challeneg Mr Ismalis evidence at the appeal hearing.

Mr Ismali's opinion (based purley on photos) is inadmissible and thus had not been scrutinized nor has a counter expert opinion been pursued. We dont know how reliable this evidence is. And its not worth arguing about since its been done and dusted at the appeal allready. Unless you plan on building a time machine?

From a legal point of view this evidence is not part of the prosecution case. There is nothing to challenge. When it comes to debating on a forum and people using Mr Ismail's evidence to advance their own opinions on the case then thats a different matter all together.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 01:29:51 AM by David1819 »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #66 on: April 10, 2018, 12:24:17 PM »
I just posted the appeal transcript that makes reference to it.

Where?  Please type out the text you are referring to where the prosecution raised the matter of SC being moved in main bedroom at trial?  Please also identify the relevant expert along with their testimony raising such at trial.

You are saying the defence should have raised the issue of Sheila's dead body moving. In-front of the trial Jury  while the prosecution decided not to even play the card and keep shtoom about it? As part of a defence strategy to persuade a jury that Sheila committed suicide? That would be serious malpractice if you ask me. That's insane!

I have absolutely no idea how you arrive at the above?  There's clear direct evidence from a member of the raid team, A/PS Woodcock, that SC's body was moved by either a police officer or Dr Craig in between A/PS Woodcock's observation of SC at approx 7.30 am and police photographer DC Bird's image of SC at approx 10.30am.  Of course the prosecution would want to remain shtoom about this.  It is a very serious breach of police procedures when victims at soc are moved before being photographed etc.  The prosecution didn't have a card to play David.  The dopey defence had the card but as with many aspects of the case they were totally incompetent and negligent.

The prosecution never brought it forward and thus the defence have nothing to argue against. Nor would the defence raise the issue on their initiative. Because it does not help them at all.

Why would the prosecution raise an aspect that was harmful to the case against JB?  If the prosecution raised the aspect the defence may have looked more carefully at the raid team and their wit stats and come to understand SC was moved between approx 7.30am - 10.30am which would have been helpful to the defence.

We can only speculate why the prosecution never brought this forward but I can narrow it down to two most likely reasons.

A) The opinion from Vanezis didn't favour the prosecution case

or

B) They knew that by introducing it they risked the possibility of the defence cross examining the firearms unit etc on the issue and it would open a can worms and backfire. 

Take your pick. Whatever the answer not much we can do now.

See my comments above.  The prosecution didn't raise it as it was harmful to the case against JB.  The defence didn't raise it because they were incompetent and negligent.

The only person I know of who defends Dr Craig is you.

In a statement where he is asked to describe what happened that morning

"I saw only one gunshot wound at that stage" - Dr Craig.

Why didn't he see the other gunshot would that was right infront of him? Because he is not a competent or reliable witness.

Why did he feel this was important enough to warrant a mention in the statement? Because as he recalls it in his mind he only saw one gunshot wound. And with retrospect knowing she had two wounds that he should have observed, to him that was not there. Hence he felt it was important to mention.

Dr Craigs sloppy and negligent work has only resulted in people thinking the police shot Sheila the second time by accident while moving the rifle on her chest. His evidence should be thrown out en masse.

Have you ever considered that when Dr Craig observed SC her head may still have been propped up against the bedside cabinet thus only exposing one gsw?  In any event he was there to certify death, nothing more and nothing less.  You object to his testimony on the basis it doesn't fit with your own ill-conceived theories that SC died much later than the other victims. 

The only people who think the police shot SC or anyone in WHF are cranks.


Mr Ismail's evidence was not sucessfully submitted into evidence for reasons already mentioned. As a result Mr Ismail was not called to testify at the appeal hearing for cross examination. Nor did the defence need to hire a counter expert to challeneg Mr Ismalis evidence at the appeal hearing.

Mr Ismali's opinion (based purley on photos) is inadmissible and thus had not been scrutinized nor has a counter expert opinion been pursued. We dont know how reliable this evidence is. And its not worth arguing about since its been done and dusted at the appeal allready. Unless you plan on building a time machine?

From a legal point of view this evidence is not part of the prosecution case. There is nothing to challenge. When it comes to debating on a forum and people using Mr Ismail's evidence to advance their own opinions on the case then thats a different matter all together.

Mr Ismail's evidence was regarded inadmissible purely on the basis that it was evidence that could have been adjudicated on at trial.  The reason it wasn't adjudicated on at trial is that it was harmful to the prosecution in that someone moved SC between the hours of approx 7.30am - 10.30am and it certainly wasn't JB.

The appeal judges commented as follows:

519. Having studied with care the statement of Mr Ismail, we concluded that this was expert evidence capable of belief. Indeed if it had been given and if cross-examination had not revealed flaws in it (which we consider unlikely bearing in mind that there was no application to call any expert evidence to contradict it), had we been on a jury hearing such evidence we might well have been very impressed by it. That evidence in itself could have led to a conclusion of guilt quite apart from the many other matters relied upon by the prosecution at trial. However, we were not satisfied that evidence of this kind was not available at the date of trial if the prosecution had sought to explore these matters and more importantly we thought that Mr Turner was right in his submission that it was very difficult to gauge with sufficient certainty the reaction of a jury to it particularly when we could not judge it against all the related evidence in the trial, which we had not heard.

520. Our conclusion was that we should not therefore admit the evidence and we have had no regard to it in reaching our conclusion. It can, however, be said about it that if it had been called at trial, it may well have represented yet another formidable string to the prosecution's bow in a case where even without any regard to that evidence, it has to be said that the prosecution were able to put forward a very strong case pointing to guilt.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 04:56:55 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #67 on: April 10, 2018, 12:43:46 PM »
David I note in the trial transcript you've uploaded MT @ 5th para comments that had SC been pulled by her legs as MI claimed then he would expect to see the bloodstains underneath her body indicating such but didn't.

This suggests:

- The bloodstains underneath SC's body were dry when she was moved between 7.30am - 10.30am.  Hardly surprising given all the evidence suggests she died approx 3.30am.

- MT overlooked A/PS Woodcock's WS in other words further evidence he was incompetent and negligent.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2018, 04:58:50 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2018, 10:30:36 AM »
David can I assume from your silence you have had a rethink and discovered the errors in your thinking?  If not I would appreciate a response.   
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2018, 09:36:07 PM »
David I note in the trial transcript you've uploaded MT @ 5th para comments that had SC been pulled by her legs as MI claimed then he would expect to see the bloodstains underneath her body indicating such but didn't.

This suggests:

- The bloodstains underneath SC's body were dry when she was moved between 7.30am - 10.30am.  Hardly surprising given all the evidence suggests she died approx 3.30am.

No he is arguing that pulling her body would have revealed blood staining on the carpet from the blood that seeped down her neck onto the carpet.

You say "Hardly surprising given all the evidence suggests she died approx 3.30am." There is no evidence that suggests she died 3.30am.  Like Adams "mountain of incriminating evidence" Its something you like to believe exists when it doesn't. Empty talk that is intended to sway opinion for what ever reasons you may have.

- MT overlooked A/PS Woodcock's WS in other words further evidence he was incompetent and negligent.

How do you know? He succeeded in preventing the evidence from being submitted period. Thus didn't need to challenge it. How do you know he didn't keep A/PS Woodcock's WS up his sleeve in-case the judges decided to bring the evidence forward?. How do you know if MTQC wouldn't have torn Mr Ismali to shreds in the witness box under cross examination had the judges decided to bring the evidence forward?

Your criticism of him is fallacious, narrow minded and myopic.


David can I assume from your silence you have had a rethink and discovered the errors in your thinking?  If not I would appreciate a response.   

I have been busy. The other day I looked into Mr Ismali. Turns out he was an employee of the FSS with a science degree. Based on your previous comments (Elliot and Fletcher) need I say more? Not me that needs a rethink.

I also discovered that in 2006 that the FSS had Mr Ismali on a salary of 100K per annum! what on earth is going on there? Does he keep the DPP,COA and other Government agencies happy with his "opinions" ?

Anyways I think this discussion is a waste of time and does nothing to advance anything. There are only two pursuits that will directly advance the case and they are

A - Fresh evidence that undermines the sound moderator.

B - Fresh evidence that inciminates Sheila.

Only the above will gut us anywhere. Slaging a guy off because of percieved negligence decades ago wont achieve anything (unless you are building a time machine)

Undermining facets of the crown the crown case like Mugford and Fletcher ect or things that merely support Jeremys version of events, wont get anywhere without A or B above.

I think A might have been exhausted by now but I could be wrong. A undermines the case alltogether and B indirectly undermines A and B could have swayed the Jury.

« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 09:41:39 PM by David1819 »

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2018, 10:13:40 PM »
No he is arguing that pulling her body would have revealed blood staining on the carpet from the blood that seeped down her neck onto the carpet.

That's your interpretation.  It's certainly none mine and since you've removed your attachment we are unable to review it.

You say "Hardly surprising given all the evidence suggests she died approx 3.30am." There is no evidence that suggests she died 3.30am.  Like Adams "mountain of incriminating evidence" Its something you like to believe exists when it doesn't. Empty talk that is intended to sway opinion for what ever reasons you may have.

If you're claiming SC died significantly later than the other victims provide the evidence showing such.  I am holding you to this.   

How do you know? He succeeded in preventing the evidence from being submitted period. Thus didn't need to challenge it. How do you know he didn't keep A/PS Woodcock's WS up his sleeve in-case the judges decided to bring the evidence forward?. How do you know if MTQC wouldn't have torn Mr Ismali to shreds in the witness box under cross examination had the judges decided to bring the evidence forward?

Oh come off it David the appeal judges comment as follows and you think MTQC was holding his ace card up his sleeve?  If MTQC bothered to read the raid team stats he would have known one of the first, if not the first, to observe SC was A/PS Woodcock who stated SC's head was raised against NB's bedside cabinet which just so happens to tally with evidence from Mr Ismail on behalf of the prosecution.  You couldn't make it up!

518. To decide whether we considered that the interests of justice required that we heard Mr Ismail's evidence, we first had regard to the evidence that it was said that he could give. From the blood staining he concluded that following the second and fatal shot Sheila Caffell was lying almost flat on her back with her head propped against a bedside cabinet. For her then to slide to be found in the position depicted in the photographs would have required the downward force to be greater than the friction of her body against the floor. In his opinion this simply was not possible as there would only be the weight of the head providing the downward force. Therefore he concluded that an additional force would have been necessary. It could not have come from Sheila Caffell since the second shot would have been instantly fatal and thus she must have been moved by someone else, for example with her legs being pulled. He also considered that the weight and the friction between her skin and her nightdress was likely to have been less than the weight and friction between the nightdress and the carpet. Therefore, he would expect movement of the body within the nightdress rather than the body and clothing sliding together across the carpet. He pointed out that the photographs demonstrated this effect at the back of the nightdress with the nightdress staying rucked up in its original position. However the front of the nightdress had not demonstrated this effect. Accordingly Mr Ismail concluded that the nightdress had been pulled down after Sheila Caffell slid into her final position. Since on the evidence, she was dead by this stage, Mr Ismail concluded that some one else had arranged her nightdress.

519. Having studied with care the statement of Mr Ismail, we concluded that this was expert evidence capable of belief. Indeed if it had been given and if cross-examination had not revealed flaws in it (which we consider unlikely bearing in mind that there was no application to call any expert evidence to contradict it), had we been on a jury hearing such evidence we might well have been very impressed by it. That evidence in itself could have led to a conclusion of guilt quite apart from the many other matters relied upon by the prosecution at trial. However, we were not satisfied that evidence of this kind was not available at the date of trial if the prosecution had sought to explore these matters and more importantly we thought that Mr Turner was right in his submission that it was very difficult to gauge with sufficient certainty the reaction of a jury to it particularly when we could not judge it against all the related evidence in the trial, which we had not heard.


Your criticism of him is fallacious, narrow minded and myopic.
My criticism of all the defence lawyers, judges, Malcolm Fletcher and Brian Elliot will be mild compared to the fall-out post JB's acquittal.

I have been busy. The other day I looked into Mr Ismali. Turns out he was an employee of the FSS with a science degree. Based on your previous comments (Elliot and Fletcher) need I say more? Not me that needs a rethink.

I also discovered that in 2006 that the FSS had Mr Ismali on a salary of 100K per annum! what on earth is going on there? Does he keep the DPP,COA and other Government agencies happy with his "opinions" ?

Parliament acknowledged quality failures at FSS during the 1980's when the likes of Elliot and Fletcher featured.  Mr Ismail might well be a different category of fish.  His testimony at 2002 appeal seems spot on.

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmsctech/writev/forensic/m61.htm

Anyways I think this discussion is a waste of time and does nothing to advance anything. There are only two pursuits that will directly advance the case and they are

A - Fresh evidence that undermines the sound moderator.

B - Fresh evidence that inciminates Sheila.

Only the above will gut us anywhere. Slaging a guy off because of percieved negligence decades ago wont achieve anything (unless you are building a time machine)

Undermining facets of the crown the crown case like Mugford and Fletcher ect or things that merely support Jeremys version of events, wont get anywhere without A or B above.

I think A might have been exhausted by now but I could be wrong. A undermines the case alltogether and B indirectly undermines A and B could have swayed the Jury.

It's not perceived incompetence and negligence it's there for all to see:

- Overlooking A/PS Woodcock's WS
- Failing to understand Elliot's handswab test/results are flawed and meaningless
- Rambling on about the bloodstains on the bible oblivious to whose blood
- Failing to understand the soc and claiming DCI Ainsley inadvertently removed NB's blood from mouthpiece

JB's acquital is in the bag but those responsible need holding to account.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2018, 10:42:21 PM by Holly Goodhead »
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2018, 10:25:05 PM »
David can you upload the attachment you originally included in post #63.  Please also provide your evidence showing SC died much later than the other victims.  Thanks.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline LuminousWanderer

Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #72 on: April 12, 2018, 01:55:31 AM »

JB's acquital is in the bag but those responsible need holding to account.

Holly, your optimism is infectious.  You've almost got me convinced.  What makes you so sure that his conviction will be reversed?

I've only been reading about this case in any detail for two or three weeks, but I know enough now to realise that the case against him is quite strong.  Not that I'm saying he did it: I've really no idea about that one way or the other.

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2018, 06:44:16 AM »
It's not perceived incompetence and negligence it's there for all to see:

- Overlooking A/PS Woodcock's WS
- Failing to understand Elliot's handswab test/results are flawed and meaningless
- Rambling on about the bloodstains on the bible oblivious to whose blood
- Failing to understand the soc and claiming DCI Ainsley inadvertently removed NB's blood from mouthpiece


- Overlooking A/PS Woodcock's WS

That's an assumption on your part. You do not know what he would have done had the evidence been brought forward. You are criticising him for not challening evidence that he prevented from getting to the stage of being challenged in the first place.

- Failing to understand Elliot's handswab test/results are flawed and meaningless

He hired Dr Lloyd to establish just that. How can he be oblivious to it?

- Rambling on about the bloodstains on the bible oblivious to whose blood

We have all done that.

- Failing to understand the soc and claiming DCI Ainsley inadvertently removed NB's blood from mouthpiece

Replacing a blood stained phone with a clean phone is actually in the realm of possibility however albeit improbable. Someone walking around with their brains mashed by multiple gunshot wounds to the head is not possible at all. You have done the exact same thing but to a much greater extent. So your criticism and quibbling's are rather unjust and puerile.

Furthermore the CCRC announced its referral in March of 2001 and MT was hired by Ewen Smith around July 2001 then the appeal hearing started in October of 2002. So that's just over a year divided by whatever his caseload was, to prepare for the hearing. Needless to say there is a lot to go through. Furthermore Owen Smith said several month before the appeal started, that It was not possible to adequately go through all the case material given the time frame and the resources available. But I am sure you took all this into consideration prior to coming to the conclusion that he should be sacked for "gross incompetence and negligence" and that "he didn't have a clue".

david1819

  • Guest
Re: Who should lead JB's defence at his third appeal hearing?
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2018, 07:35:20 AM »
David can you upload the attachment you originally included in post #63. 

For some reason I cannot use the standard attach feature. Says I need moderators permission. Not a problem. Its attached within the post as image hosted on the web.

Dr V TFG, Dr V view he looked at in relation to other matter. if you go to PM.S5. 25c. this is something Dr V looked at, go back to page 8 and he had an opinion on. (quote from). The issue was in our submissions very much looked at in this vain at trial

The Judges were not satisfied it was not available. And? Reading further down Justice Wright argues that it could be fresh evidence because Vanezis is a doctor and not a scientist LOL

Please also provide your evidence showing SC died much later than the other victims.  Thanks.

Have done numerous times. You remain entrenched, why waste my time again?

Your arguments to the contrary are

- Distefano edited the photo (despite other photos showing the same thing)

- Dr Craig never said anything (despite not examining the body)

- Vanezis never said anything (despite not giving a TOD in his examination)

- Knight never said anything (despite not being asked and believes anything is possible so no point asking him anyway)

- a skewed interpretation of "anytime the previous night" (from someone who never closely examine the body)


I will admit my points are open to challenge but the above does not convince me of anything. So until you find something else, not much point debating.
« Last Edit: April 12, 2018, 07:47:28 AM by David1819 »