She wore black tops before Joana disappeared. It wouldn't seem to be a sudden change of habit, so why did he think that that was significant when on TV making an appeal to find her daughter?
I suspect that a lady who lived in Figueira is involved in the disappearance of Joana.
12 September 2006
Read full interview... (http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?depth=2&hl=en&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.algarvepress.net/conteudo.php%3Fmenu%3D-1%26cat%3DRegional%26scat%3DReportagem%26id%3D136&usg=ALkJrhispTvYo-aoz0vUhzNkhcMO8zJqXw)
In January 2009, Leonor made a statement through her lawyer claiming that she wanted to tell the truth of what happened to her daughter Joana. She stated that her brother João had abducted the child in a failed bid to sell her to some foreigners. She further claimed that the child had been killed by him and her body buried in an abandoned house in the hills above the village of Figueira. Despite extensive searches being organised by both the police and Leonor's lawyer, no remains were ever found. End Quote.You are correct Eleanor, he did do a full confession and then denied writing it and the Lawyer was blamed. It had however been agreed that they would both do a statement that would match, regarding the failed sale of Joana and if acceptable it would hopefully reduce the sentence. Joao was pretty clever at pointing a finger at Leonor and pulling out of agreed statements, but Leonor did not understand the strategies of a criminal mind, Poor girl
So Leonor didn't admit to killing Joana. She just repeated what her brother had said.
And we don't even know if he was telling the truth.
This case has really upset me Anna, probably more so than The McCanns, who are at least free and able to search. While this poor woman was beaten half senseless and then convicted of a crime that she almost certainly did not commit. And she still doesn't know what happened to her daughter.
I am not so sure about Joao, but even his conviction is unsafe.
The whole thing reads like a horror story. How could this happen in a democracy in the 21st century?
It upsets me too, that such a thing can happen to someone because they had the nerve to accuse the police of beating her and that is what this sordid excuse of a conviction is all about. Would it not be just wonderful if Joana turned up.
I dream about Joana turning up, hopefully not for the wrong reasons, although I occasionally worry about that. But tis mortal hard not to want to see these disgusting people and this disgusting system get it's cumuppance. Even several Judges fell for this. But finding Joana is the only way it is going to happen.
The two liars Leonor and João had a story for every day of the week, The only one they never told was the fairy tale of how Joana was abducted by a stranger because in the final analysis even they know it isn't true. Quite right that she was prosecuted for perjury as well. A more dysfunctional pair you would be hard pressed to find.
There doesn't seem to have any systematic house-to-house enquiries, which might have revealed unfamiliar cars, faces, or anything else (although the Portimão cops may have started prior to the takeover by Faro), and there was no CCTV for police to check. A couple of witnesses said that they saw Leonor and João with a "bag", no doubt made to sound suspicious in the press, but it was just a shopping / carrier bag.
The GNR would have done this routinely but witnesses would appear to be few except for the woman who saw Joana return along the street with her shopping and the sighting at the church.
Apart from the press, I can see no witness statements that say she was at the church. I think the church reference was used as a proximity, since it is close to the café. I could be wrong. but I cant find a witness statement.
My thoughts are that she took a route (after crossing the road and mounting the pavement) that would have gone round the back of the church. Why was she unseen after this witness saw her?
Why was she unseen? perhaps a better question is why a mother would send her seven year old out on her own in the dark half a mile there and half a mile back to get some crummy milk and tuna. Thats what neighbours are for! Asking what youve run out of till tomorrow!
Why was she unseen? perhaps a better question is why a mother would send her seven year old out on her own in the dark half a mile there and half a mile back to get some crummy milk and tuna. Thats what neighbours are for! Asking what youve run out of till tomorrow!
I was discussing the church and witnesses and not the reason she was sent out.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I have never borrowed from a neighbour and I doubt Leonor would, being new to the neighbourhood.
Joana was eight years old, nearly Nine...not seven
It was not half a mile, but approximately less than 0.3, but I'm sure you will correct me if I'm wrong.
You need to do some swatting on this case.
I could undertand your reaction in a city or drug-ridden grotty estate, Red, but life is often different in sleepy little villages or even quiet suburbs. Kids are left out to play or to run off to buy sweets from a stand or fetch something from the village minimarket. I see it all the time. My cornershop lady is very patient with the kids and it consolidates their understanding of arithmetic and the responsibility of growing autonomy. As I try to tell myself when I'm next in the queue during the laborious process of counting small change.
Ylenia was sent off to the local swimming pool as she'd forgotten her shampoo. She was 5. MariLuz was around the same age and had gone off to get sweets.
She got to the cafe ok and was seen heading back home.What happened after that ...??? To say it was an abduction and all confessions and statements and letters were false is pushing it. No scintilla of any evidence whatsoever of any kind from anywhere or anyone for an abduction either, that should tell you somethng,
People are normally watching out for them though in these cosy sleep everyone knows everyone type small villages. What happened to the strangers, people acting suspiciously, strange cars etc you post about then?
Please dont also start that awful argument about its good for them to learn math through shopping!! And such like. Were talking about a little child sent out on its own in the dark one night, not a child going off on its own or with friends to the corner cafe or sweet shop whilst all are assembled in the village square.
Chalk and cheese.
She got to the cafe ok and was seen heading back home.What happened after that ...??? To say it was an abduction and all confessions and statements and letters were false is pushing it. No scintilla of any evidence whatsoever of any kind from anywhere or anyone for an abduction either, that should tell you somethng,
The links to the original don't work. :(
In just the same way as the fact that the accused were appallingly tortured; the Court records show complete discrepanacies in the way that Joana was supposed to have been badly treated by her family; she was supposed to have lived in a slum yet lived in a very clean looking home and was always quite well dressed. She looked a very happy girl. And then the fact that there were no forensics per se ..... just a story which the Judge did not believe
Along with the fact that Amaral was the one Officer in charge and Cristavao was the other, the two officers that "developed" the story ....
Now, Red, that list above SHOULD tell you something !
After all, as you well know, Amaral has been thru the Courts and twice found to be a perjurer (a liar) whilst Cristavao is currently up on, IIIRC, SEVEN counts of Very nasty criminal activity. Of course he is innocent until found guilty ... but it aint looking good tbh
As said these things should tell you something !
We're talking about an apparently responsible 8-year-old girl who went to the corner shop on a quick errand at around 20:30 on 12 Sept and was last seen on her way back.
What happened after that has never been clearly established or corroborated by any form of credible evidence, IMO. In my view, confessions have their place, provided that the entire process is transparent and without any form of psychological or physical abuse. Even then, people can make false confessions for reasons better known to themselves and it is (or should be) up to the police to verify facts that would corroborate confessions, if they are truly committed to truth and justice. In this case, I just can't see credible evidence to support these "confessions" and the police / prosecution theory of what happened to her.
The links to the original don't work. :(
I have corrected the links in Anna's post.
If you click on the link below and scroll down the page you will see an entire list of articles on the Joana case.
www.translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=pt&u=http://www.dn.pt/especiais/especial.aspx%3Fespecial%3DCaso%2520Joana%26seccao%3DSOCIEDADE&prev=/search%3Fq%3Ddi%25C3%25A1rio%2Bde%2Bnot%25C3%25ADcias%2Bcaso%2Bjoana%26client%3Dms-opera-mobile%26channel%3Dnew
Thank you, John
I don't know why the original links no longer work.
Is that list the best you can come up with Sadie to counter what João and Leonor Cipriano have already stated in evidence at all the trials? Not one claim of stranger abduction from the moment they were arrested - does that not tell you something?It has been mentioned John, but I dont think that it was termed Stranger Abduction at the time.
It has been mentioned John, but I dont think that it was termed Stranger Abduction at the time.
Quite honestly with
- tortured out evidence,
evidence from the witness (also tortured ou) later rescinded
- The characters of the two Officers in charge being so suspect .... one is a known criminal and the other is awaiting trial on seven quite gangsterish charges
- No proper forensic evidence
- Lies about the happiness of Joana
- lies about the way she was looked after
- The writing of books by the inspectors on one or both missing youngsters - mega money making !
- The lies put about before being made Arguidos and the trial = pure propaganda designed to poison the minds of the public and the jurers /judges against The Ciprianos and The Mccanns
- The original Lawyer having drugs ? planted on him?
- Then he was let off ? to persuade The Ciprianos NOT to speak in their own defence ?
..... Jeez ! maybe I am wrong but the whole lot stinks and the trial WAS NOT safe in any way.
Surely you can see that?
The whole thing smells of corruption and fixing up. Only my opinion, but others seem to agree.
I am shattered, John. Too tired to think any more atm. I am sure there is more that I could think of, but not tonight.
Nigh Night
What evidence of a stranger abduction would you expect them to be able to present?
It doesn't seem to have been the first idea that came to Leonor's mind. The GNR (in what appears to have been a search and rescue operation) hadn't found her, so that would have more or less crossed off an accident in the vicinity. How thorough would that operation have been? Would they have even noticed anything potentially relevant in forensic terms, such as a shred of clothing, or a child's sandal (if Leonor had got her footwear wrong) for example?
The family checked with relatives and friends in case she could have gone off with them for some reason, including her estranged husband.
There doesn't seem to have any systematic house-to-house enquiries, which might have revealed unfamiliar cars, faces, or anything else (although the Portimão cops may have started prior to the takeover by Faro), and there was no CCTV for police to check. A couple of witnesses said that they saw Leonor and João with a "bag", no doubt made to sound suspicious in the press, but it was just a shopping / carrier bag.
Spanish border had not been alerted by the look of this
10 oct 2004
Already in the afternoon yesterday, the stepfather of the child had been led to PJ of Faro in order to be interrogated again - the fourth lowest since disappeared on 12 September. "They came back to ask me the same questions and I gave the same answers. Wanted to know where was that day and went on to explain that was not in my house, but in my mother, with her, my stepfather and friend, "said the CM António Leandro.
That afternoon, they should have gone back to being heard in PJ's friend stepfather, what will happen in the coming days.
Already after learning that the brother had been in Figueira, hours before, accompanied by the PJ, António Leandro reaffirmed its confidence in Leonor Cipriano, his wife and mother Joan. "She never beat the child, even when she gave bad answers. How could have killed her?"
A doubt that since the disappearance of the girl, the whole family grieves Leandro. The Junk where almost all work, there was talk yesterday successive anonymous phone calls they receive daily for almost a month. "Sometimes callers are silent and almost fifteen minutes. They do not speak, do not hear anything. Sometimes, to insult us and arrived already get children to talk to us," lamented David Lourdes, mother of Antonio Leandro.
"I think Joan is alive. There is no body, no news confirming she's dead," said David Lourdes. "That's why none of us will Figueira in the procession."
NO SIGN OF CHILD IS ALMOST A MONTH
Tuesday, October 12, was a full month since Joanna was last seen, near the church of Figueira, Cockle party night in the village near Portimao. In this Sunday, September 12, his mother sent him to buy milk and preserved in pastry 'Celia'.
Joan was four days ago at Grandma (mom's stepfather) in Lagos, where it should only return on Monday. However, this Sunday at 18h00, Leonor took her back to Figueira. "She was here and was fine. Asked her if she wanted to go. Joana shrugged, did not answer me and I never saw her," recalled David Lourdes.
"At midnight I got a call from the Leandro asking if Joan was with me, because Eleanor had sent her shopping and she had not yet appeared. Next morning, when I got there, I saw Eleanor crying with John beside. soon realized that he had not appeared. Till today, "laments grandmother.
VANISHING FRONTIER NOT PASS
The disappearance of Joanna, which dominates the national present almost a month ago, went completely unnoticed in Spain, even in the province of Andalusia, which borders the Algarve. Spanish police say they know nothing and local newspapers just woken up to what happened yesterday.
"We have not received any request from the Portuguese authorities about the disappearance," confirmed the CM Rodrigues Pedro Perez, commander of the local police to Ayamonte. In Guardia Civil and the sub-delegation of the government's position is the same. "We do not know anything," he said official sources.
In Media, the surprise is total. Ayamonte, the radio does not know anything. And in Huelva, Andalusia's second city, the two main newspapers had not written a line about it. Something that could change in the coming days.
http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.cmjornal.xl.pt%2Fdetalhe%2Fnoticias%2Fnacional%2Fportugal%2Fpj-insiste-em-buscas-com-o-tio&act=url
The GNR / rescue services hadn't found her; she wasn't at any of her relatives... ergo adults in the home at the time "did it". No body? No problem. She was chopped up and fed to pigs, taken in a car to be squashed over the border (which hadn't received an alert about the case, apparently) ... But, hey ho, anything goes. Case solved.
Amaral was the coordinator of the investigation. He wasn't convicted of personally beating anyone up. On the other hand, he would have (or should) have given instructions to his team - unless anyone is suggesting that he hadn't a clue what his team was up to.
Whatever Amaral did or didn't do, my issue is that it was a lousy investigation and an even lousier trial.
More importantly, there is a child whose whose fate is still unknown and people serving long sentences who may not be those who should be in jail.
Aside from drumming up a few witnesses, what did the defence attorneys actually do? In the absence of a robust defence, there wasn't much for the jury to actually consider. It wouldn't have taken Roux to demolish that case. IMO.
Yes...it was a car crash. That said however, their conduct throughout clearly implicates them both to a greater or lesser degree in Joana's disappearance.
There will be a court record of both Leonor and João's original verbal confessions to the magistrate. Leonor said initially that she did it and João said he hid the body. This eventually morphed into João abducted the girl with a view to selling her but it went horribly wrong. Take your pick because they are both practised liars with Leonor being convicted of perjury.Yep, maybe if you had been tortured so badly, you would be a practiced liar?
Yep, maybe if you had been tortured so badly, you would be a practiced liar?
Leonors conviction is the grossest miscarriage of Justice I have ever heard of, except for....
.... The previous trial when both Joao and Leonor were committed to prison for 20 odd years, reduced to was it 16 years?
Severe torture, beatings, lies, disinformation, no defensive statements by the defendents FGS, Spin, spin and more spin ... and then a closed trial on a trumped up charge against Leonor. A closed trial ... Jeez !
The whole thing stinks tbh.
So does the thought that this pair could sell their own flesh and blood for monetary gain. What a dysfunctional pair they are, no wonder the family don't want her back.John that is an under the belt comment. Where do you get the info that they made monetary gain from?
John that is an under the belt comment. Where do you get the info that they made monetary gain from?
From Leonor's last grovelling statement where she blames João for trying to sell the girl.Oh Yeah,