Why is there so much support for Leonor Cipriano from McCann supporters?

[ferryman]

Extracts from Supreme Court of Justice - ruling on the Homicide and concealment of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano's body, 20.04.2006

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

Based on what?

[Eleanor]

Extracts from Supreme Court of Justice - ruling on the Homicide and concealment of eight-year-old Joana Cipriano's body, 20.04.2006

ab) at a certain point in time, due to a motive that has not been exactly established, both arguidos started, conjointly, to successively hit minor CC on the head, prompting her to hit her head on the wall’s corner, being visible that she bled, from her mouth, her nose and her temple, due to the hits against the wall, which also caused the minor’s fall and her death, thus ceasing the arguidos’ activity;

ac) traces of blood from the minor remained on the living room’s walls and floor, on various spots, and also near the entrance;

ad) the arguidos ensured that CC was dead, verifying that she neither breathed nor reacted, and then, not wanting to be held responsible over their daughter’s and niece’s death, decided to prevent said death from becoming known to others;

ae) therefore, they soon decided that they would have to ensure that the existence of any signs in the house of what they had just done could not be verified, that the minor’s body would never be found and that, preferably, everyone would be convinced that the minor had been taken by a third party;

af) therefore, arguida BB remained at home, washing the wall and the floor that had signs of blood from CC, as well as the spot where the minor remained slumped after death, using a mop and its bucket to do so.

http://joana-morais.blogspot.com/2013/04/leonor-cipriano-condemned-to-seven-more.html

I don't think that last sentence makes any sense.

[pathfinder73]

Based on what?

The investigation. Do you know more than the investigators who worked on this case like you claim with professional dog handlers?

[misty]

Chapter 15 The Truth of the Lie
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/chapter-15.html

A BODY TELLS THE STORY OF A CRIME

I remember the Mariana case, about a little three-year-old girl kicked to death by her own father in 1999 - I was working in Açores then, at the PJ's Ponta Delgada Department of Criminal Investigation.

At 8 o'clock one Monday morning, a woman doctor, required to issue the death certificate for a child, notices that her body is covered in suspicious injuries. She alerts us immediately. We arrive at the family home. The mother is sitting on a blood-soaked towel which she is trying, unsuccessfully, to hide. The parents relate that little Mariana died in her sleep, that she allegedly choked on her feeding bottle. A pitiful lie, that does not stand up to even superficial examination of the body. Signs of violent blows are visible on her back and on her buttocks: these are imprints from the soles of the father's boots. Mariana is showing serious injuries to her skull. After having pummeled her with kicks, the father hurled her, with all his strength, against the wall. Then, grabbing her by the hair, he violently hit her head several times against the bedroom wall, under the passive gaze of the mother. Animal violence that killed Mariana. The parents then decided to get rid of the body legally, by requesting a death certificate. Tragic mistake. They faked the crime scene, washed the blood off the walls and places where the father had hit the little girl. To get rid of all trace of the crime, they threw into the bin the denim skirt that the little girl wore for the first time that Sunday. The garment covered in dust and the torn out shoulder straps attest to the violence suffered.

Mariana had simply asked to visit her godmother who lived opposite; the father, jealous, mad with rage, lashed out at her, to the point of killing her.
After the examination of the body, the medical examiner and the investigator were in no doubt: Mariana had been savagely killed by her father with the passive consent of the mother, and in front of her 5 year-old brother. In the present case, the perpetrators of the crime did not seek to hide a body but to cover up the truth.

At the time of the confessions, the man described the scene for us in a very cold way, factually, showing not the slightest regret. I had to leave my colleague to continue the interrogation alone. I was so upset. How could a father come to kill his own child? I had to get a grip on myself, I had experienced such things before.....I needed all my composure if I wanted to continue the investigation with the required objectivity. Truth and justice, that's all that remains for these children.
I have often related this case to colleagues to show them to what extent a body can, "talk," to investigators, help them to discover what really happened. Unlike other individuals, these two had neither the imagination nor the intelligence to hide the remains. In order to conceal his crime, the murderer can hide the body, or alter the crime scene in such a way as to divert suspicion. But this is not always the case. Someone may also get rid of a body without having committed a criminal act. For what reasons? Fear, for example, of being judged by his peers.


########################################################################

I can find no online record of the murder of a Mariana in the Azores, either in English or Portuguese.
Having noticed "certain similarities" with the allegations against Leonor & Joao, I wonder how much of an influence the Mariana case (if it's true) had on the way Amaral dealt with crimes against young children? It would have been interesting to view full details of the crime scene forensics & autopsy report in the Mariana affair.

[faithlilly]

Chapter 15 The Truth of the Lie
http://goncaloamaraltruthofthelie.blogspot.co.uk/2009/06/chapter-15.html

A BODY TELLS THE STORY OF A CRIME

I remember the Mariana case, about a little three-year-old girl kicked to death by her own father in 1999 - I was working in Açores then, at the PJ's Ponta Delgada Department of Criminal Investigation.

At 8 o'clock one Monday morning, a woman doctor, required to issue the death certificate for a child, notices that her body is covered in suspicious injuries. She alerts us immediately. We arrive at the family home. The mother is sitting on a blood-soaked towel which she is trying, unsuccessfully, to hide. The parents relate that little Mariana died in her sleep, that she allegedly choked on her feeding bottle. A pitiful lie, that does not stand up to even superficial examination of the body. Signs of violent blows are visible on her back and on her buttocks: these are imprints from the soles of the father's boots. Mariana is showing serious injuries to her skull. After having pummeled her with kicks, the father hurled her, with all his strength, against the wall. Then, grabbing her by the hair, he violently hit her head several times against the bedroom wall, under the passive gaze of the mother. Animal violence that killed Mariana. The parents then decided to get rid of the body legally, by requesting a death certificate. Tragic mistake. They faked the crime scene, washed the blood off the walls and places where the father had hit the little girl. To get rid of all trace of the crime, they threw into the bin the denim skirt that the little girl wore for the first time that Sunday. The garment covered in dust and the torn out shoulder straps attest to the violence suffered.

Mariana had simply asked to visit her godmother who lived opposite; the father, jealous, mad with rage, lashed out at her, to the point of killing her.
After the examination of the body, the medical examiner and the investigator were in no doubt: Mariana had been savagely killed by her father with the passive consent of the mother, and in front of her 5 year-old brother. In the present case, the perpetrators of the crime did not seek to hide a body but to cover up the truth.

At the time of the confessions, the man described the scene for us in a very cold way, factually, showing not the slightest regret. I had to leave my colleague to continue the interrogation alone. I was so upset. How could a father come to kill his own child? I had to get a grip on myself, I had experienced such things before.....I needed all my composure if I wanted to continue the investigation with the required objectivity. Truth and justice, that's all that remains for these children.
I have often related this case to colleagues to show them to what extent a body can, "talk," to investigators, help them to discover what really happened. Unlike other individuals, these two had neither the imagination nor the intelligence to hide the remains. In order to conceal his crime, the murderer can hide the body, or alter the crime scene in such a way as to divert suspicion. But this is not always the case. Someone may also get rid of a body without having committed a criminal act. For what reasons? Fear, for example, of being judged by his peers.


########################################################################

I can find no online record of the murder of a Mariana in the Azores, either in English or Portuguese.
Having noticed "certain similarities" with the allegations against Leonor & Joao, I wonder how much of an influence the Mariana case (if it's true) had on the way Amaral dealt with crimes against young children? It would have been interesting to view full details of the crime scene forensics & autopsy report in the Mariana affair.

So misty I've missed the point of your post.

[Jean-Pierre]

I do not know whether Cipriano is guilty or innocent.  However torture was proved to the satisfaction of the court, and that alone provides cause for concern about the safety of the verdict.


It is interesting to note the complacent, judgemental approach adopted by well educated middle class posters to a woman living in quite poverty conditions and lacking in basic social and academic education.

(The fact that  she is currently studying in prison at the equivalent of 9th Grade (corresponding to age 14 ish) suggests that her basic education has been lacking, and her background does not seem to have had many advantages taken for granted in western europe.)

[misty]

So misty I've missed the point of your post.

Would it be fair to say the Mariana case had a deep psychological effect on Amaral & perhaps clouded his judgement somewhat when presented with his next crime involving a very young child?

[Carana]

Based on what?

They were judged to be proven based on "common experience"...

It's a concept that offers leeway in the PT legal system.

That night generally follows day, or being accused of crimes via trial by media could generally be accepted as distressful... I don't have a problem with.

But I'm bewildered as to how that long list of points accepted as "proven facts" could be accepted as such on the basis of "common experience".

[ferryman]

According to the court, it was proved that Leonor Cipriano lied about the way in which the officers had beaten her, having presented in trial different versions of the facts that took place during the questionings to which she was subjected to, in 2004, after the crime.


Words fail me ....

[Mr Gray]

According to the court, it was proved that Leonor Cipriano lied about the way in which the officers had beaten her, having presented in trial different versions of the facts that took place during the questionings to which she was subjected to, in 2004, after the crime.


Words fail me ....

totally agree...what sort of justice is that

[faithlilly]

Would it be fair to say the Mariana case had a deep psychological effect on Amaral & perhaps clouded his judgement somewhat when presented with his next crime involving a very young child?

I would be surprised if a case like Mariana's didn't have a deep psychological effect on every police officer dealing with such a crime. Are you saying all policemen will then let it cloud their judgement when presented with a similar crime or just Amaral ?

[stephen25000]

According to the court, it was proved that Leonor Cipriano lied about the way in which the officers had beaten her, having presented in trial different versions of the facts that took place during the questionings to which she was subjected to, in 2004, after the crime.


Words fail me ....

Why do words fail ?

The woman clearly lied.

[misty]

I would be surprised if a case like Mariana's didn't have a deep psychological effect on every police officer dealing with such a crime. Are you saying all policemen will then let it cloud their judgement when presented with a similar crime or just Amaral ?

Not all policemen, no - just some, maybe those who are either affected by the crime itself or the way their fellow officers dealt with the crime. Amaral wrote that he had recounted the story of Mariana many times so clearly it had had an impact on him for whatever reason - just as deaths may or may not have an impact on doctors & surgeons.

[faithlilly]

Not all policemen, no - just some, maybe those who are either affected by the crime itself or the way their fellow officers dealt with the crime. Amaral wrote that he had recounted the story of Mariana many times so clearly it had had an impact on him for whatever reason - just as deaths may or may not have an impact on doctors & surgeons.

Perhaps it spurned it on to make sure that parents who had harmed their children were brought to justice as with Cipriano.

[Mr Gray]

Why do words fail ?

The woman clearly lied.

do you understand what she is accused of lying about....I'm not sure you do