Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: icabodcrane on June 28, 2013, 07:02:00 PM
Title: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 28, 2013, 07:02:00 PM
I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread
Five experts ( and they really are experts ) analysed the three possible theories :
That Madeleine woke and wandered
That she was abducted
That her parents were involved in her disappearance
What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option ( involvement of the parents ) . It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of 'staging' a crime
The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories ( woke and wandered/ abduction ) because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios
I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters other than that they were opened as part of the staging of a crime
I know other explanations have been sought ... but that's the thing ... other explanations have to be 'imagined'
There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately screams abduction ... on the contrary, it is something that somehow has to be 'fitted in' with abduction theory
I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on June 28, 2013, 07:18:48 PM
I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread
Five experts ( and they really are experts ) analysed the three possible theories :
That Madeleine woke and wondered
That she was abducted
That her parents were involved in her disappearance
What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option ( involvement of the parents ) . It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of 'staging' a crime
The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories ( woke and wondered/ abduction ) because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios
I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters other than that they were opened as part of the staging of a crime
I know other explanations have been sought ... but that's the thing ... other explanations have to be 'imagined'
There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately screams abduction ... on the contrary, it is something that somehow has to be 'fitted in' with abduction theory
I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
So Kate opens the shutters to stage an abduction and leaves her finger prints on it, come on.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 07:46:26 PM
Interesting observation Icab!
See also here at 6.30
Lace you can open the shutters by lifting the web cord from inside, as you are supposed to do,no reason to put your prints on them at all, unless you are Gerry Mccann or Diane Webster tampering with evidence!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on June 28, 2013, 08:37:24 PM
Lace you can open the shutters by lifting the web cord from inside, as you are supposed to do,no reason to put your prints on them at all, unless you are Gerry Mccann or Diane Webster tampering with evidence!
Yes I know. I expect Kate McCann knew that too.
So if Kate McCann was devious enough to stage an abduction by lifting the shutters, why leave her finger prints?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on June 28, 2013, 08:42:31 PM
Kate had lived there for several days Faith. Her fingerprints mean nothing
Why are you wumming?
Do you really want me to go thru the reasons why the shutters and window was open....yet again! .... for the fourth or fifth time !
Her fingerprints mean everything sadie because according to Kate she had never opened the window. From her arguido interview :
'The window to Madeleine’s bedroom remained closed, but she doesn’t know if it was locked, shutters and curtains drawn, and that was how it remained since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window shutters in Madeleine’s room open, it was not the deponent who opened them, and she never saw them open.'
By the way are you now willing to concede you were wrong about the Smith carrier ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 28, 2013, 11:37:30 PM
I don't find what seems to be strange about two fingers on the window.
Your child is missing. You find the shutters and a window open.
What is odd about touching the window with two fingers whilst poking your head out of the window to check?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on June 28, 2013, 11:48:24 PM
I have read her statement and seen the photograph from the files that shows where she was standing when she saw the carrier. If she had to look to her left to see him he could not have been veering to the left or indeed towards her.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 29, 2013, 12:21:32 AM
The five experts who considered all scenarios on Dispatches made no mention of who's fingerprints were on the shutters ... they merely pointed out that forensicly they were positioned in a way that suggested they were opened from the inside
With regard to the possible abductor scenario, they concluded that any abductor would have entered and exited through the unlocked patio doors, and made their escape down the alleyway in front of the patio, and from there, cut back up another alleyway that would lead to a waiting car in the car park outside the McCann's apartment
In this simple and perfectly feasable scenario there would be no eyewitnesses ... and no open window
Yet both elements were introduced
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 10:28:15 AM
The five experts who considered all scenarios on Dispatches made no mention of who's fingerprints were on the shutters ... they merely pointed out that forensicly they were positioned in a way that suggested they were opened from the inside
With regard to the possible abductor scenario, they concluded that any abductor would have entered and exited through the unlocked patio doors, and made their escape down the alleyway in front of the patio, and from there, cut back up another alleyway that would lead to a waiting car in the car park outside the McCann's apartment
In this simple and perfectly feasable scenario there would be no eyewitnesses ... and no open window
Yet both elements were introduced
I've never understood where the idea came from that they were forensically in any particular position. The report below seems to be all that was said about them.
The report mentions 5 fingerprints, but the photo only shows 4.
I don't recall finding anything about testing for fingerprints on the outside of the window...
04-PROCESSO 4 - 884 to 885
WITH THANKS ALBYM / INES 04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_884 04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_884a
MINISTRY OF JUSTICE
POLICIA JUDICIARIA
PORTIMAO CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT
Finger Print Inspection by Technical Police Team
Reg No 129/07
Assistant Specialist: Joao Barreiras
Policia Judiciaria
Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
Legal Identification Cabinet
At 01 time on 04-05-07, I , Joao Barreiras, Assistant Specialist, proceeded to inspect the location described below.
Signature
Crime: Disappearance of Child
Time:
Date: 03-04-2007 (sic)
Occurrence: About 22H00
Location:
Region: Lagos
Street or Place: Ocean Club Resort, Block 5, apartment 5A
Nature: Residence
NUIPC 201/07.0 OGALGS
Person Offended:
NAME MADELEINE MCCANN
VESTIGES COLLECTED
5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf
1. Methodology and means of operation:
2. Established number of supposed authors:
3. Abandoned objects:
4. Objects or values that were the target of the crime:
5. Importance of the damage incurred:
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother, The fingerprint inspection was only carried out on the inside of the window because it was night time, the location was sealed and preserved so that light conditions would permit the inspection of the residence to be finalised. 04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_885
(The mistake concerning the middle finger has now been corrected. Thank you to whoever did that).
On entry/exit via the patio doors...
Possible, but there was the risk of one of the group noticing. The other issue is whether an abductor bother to close the gates.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on June 29, 2013, 10:47:27 AM
It is usually the simplest explanations which are in the end found to be the most reliable. Kate claimed that she never opened the window but never denied closing it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 01:25:41 PM
It is usually the simplest explanations which are in the end found to be the most reliable. Kate claimed that she never opened the window but never denied closing it.
The forensic analysis of the finger prints positions suggests opening.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 01:36:40 PM
Says who? The window opening expert? Normal people put their hand on the windows in exactly the same position whether you open or close them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 01:47:53 PM
Says who? The window opening expert? Normal people put their hand on the windows in exactly the same position whether you open or close them.
Mocking again, Mrs B ! "Normal" people hold the handle or put their fingers in the cavity (sorry I don't know the word for it) to open or close a window. I do that, actually force me to do that, because I hate cleaning windows. Yes, those who put their fingers on a window adopt the same position whether they intend to close or to open the window. I guess the expert can notice the slight gliding of the fingers due to the movement in a way or the other (I might be wrong).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 01:52:07 PM
The forensic analysis of the finger prints positions suggests opening.
Where is this stated in the files? I posted the only document that I'd found on the subject further up. Have you found anything more?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 01:52:54 PM
os dedos medio da mao esquerda (3x) e dedo indicador da mao esquerda (2x).
The middle and indicator FINGERS of Kate's left hand; not her whole left hand.
Is that how people open windows, is it? With the use of only TWO fingers? The only thing that means is TOUCHING the window, not opening it OR closing it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 02:05:33 PM
os dedos medio da mao esquerda (3x) e dedo indicador da mao esquerda (2x).
The middle and indicator FINGERS of Kate's left hand; not her whole left hand.
Is that how people open windows, is it? With the use of only TWO fingers? The only thing that means is TOUCHING the window, not opening it OR closing it.
Only touching implies no pressure, which I guess can be analysed. The use we make of our fingers is a fascinating question. See the kathakali dance and also in India daily life.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 02:06:33 PM
I've never understood where the idea came from that they were forensically in any particular position. The report below seems to be all that was said about them.
The report mentions 5 fingerprints, but the photo only shows 4.
The bottom right box is actually of two
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 02:10:23 PM
Says who? The window opening expert? Normal people put their hand on the windows in exactly the same position whether you open or close them.
What position? LOL
All I've found is that there were 3 prints of the middle finger of the left hand and 2 of the index finger of the same hand on the inside of the window.
Do most people use two fingers to open or close a sliding window, or do they grab the frame / handle?
Unless it was already open and very easy to slide, wouldn't opening it or closing it with two fingers have smudged the prints?
Why wouldn't it be compatible with simply touching the window to poke her head outside?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 02:14:42 PM
Why wouldn't it be compatible with simply touching the window to poke her head outside?
This is what is shown in GAs documentary, and later said by KM in a couple interviews and in her book IIRC, that she looked through the window, though no right hand prints found, neither were GMs, though according to Silvia Baptista,the maintenance manager, he told her he had closed the window that night after the events.
Edited
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 02:24:47 PM
All I've found is that there were 3 prints of the middle finger of the left hand and 2 of the index finger of the same hand on the inside of the window.
Do most people use two fingers to open or close a sliding window, or do they grab the frame / handle?
Unless it was already open and very easy to slide, wouldn't opening it or closing it with two fingers have smudged the prints?
Why wouldn't it be compatible with simply touching the window to poke her head outside?
Of course they don't, normal people use the handle, where the locking mechanism also is placed. I just tried open mine with two fingers, it doesn't even work, my fingers slid across the glass. It works if you put your whole hand on it though, AFTER you have unlocked it. They're actually quite heavy, which anyone who has had to clean them would know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 29, 2013, 02:37:42 PM
You cannot tell if someone opened or closed a window from one fingerprint so let's stop fooling ourselves. Those windows at the club just slid along horizontal like a patio door so no real effort needed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 04:02:26 PM
Why would there be right hand prints? There wasn't a window to the right, if it had been opened to the left. Thats the side it slides to. She would look to the right, with her eyes, not her hands! The fingerprint forensics were less than useless, and those taking them were incompitent.
I'm sure I read somewhere that they had to redo the Tapas 9 prints, as the first were smudged.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:09:39 PM
Why would there be right hand prints? There wasn't a window to the right, if it had been opened to the left. Thats the side it slides to. She would look to the right, with her eyes, not her hands! The fingerprint forensics were less than useless, and those taking them were incompitent.
I'm sure I read somewhere that they had to redo the Tapas 9 prints, as the first were smudged.
If you are referring to my post, I was merely suggesting when someone looks out of a window they probably use both hands, if there was no pane to the side, they might rest their hand on the frame or the sill, at least this is what was shown in GAs documentary, but you are right, you can look but not touch or just just touch witht one hand and look!
Any idea why Gerrys prints were not on the window after he closed it?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 29, 2013, 04:13:56 PM
If you are referring to my post, I was merely suggesting when someone looks out of a window they probably use both hands, if there was no pane to the side, they might rest their hand on the frame or the sill, at least this is what was shown in GAs documentary, but you are right, you can look but not touch or just just touch witht one hand and look!
Any idea why Gerrys prints were not on the window after he closed it?
They were Red but with most of these prints they were indecipherable.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:16:03 PM
Were there any prints on the actual handle/lock mechanism? I've seen loads about the actual glass & shutter but nothing on the handle (or I've missed it). That'd be the normal way to open/shut a window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:17:58 PM
They were Red but with most of these prints they were indecipherable.
Angelo, there were no other prints on the kids bedroom window pane apart from Kate Mccanns. The indecipherable ones were the ones on the metal shutters outside, but must have been Gerry Mccanns and Diane Websters, the two people who said they handled the shutters to ascertain if they could be opened from the outside.
Were there any prints on the actual handle/lock mechanism? I've seen loads about the actual glass & shutter but nothing on the handle (or I've missed it). That'd be the normal way to open/shut a window.
No
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 04:24:20 PM
If you are referring to my post, I was merely suggesting when someone looks out of a window they probably use both hands, if there was no pane to the side, they might rest their hand on the frame or the sill, at least this is what was shown in GAs documentary, but you are right, you can look but not touch or just just touch witht one hand and look!
Any idea why Gerrys prints were not on the window after he closed it?
The fingerprinters, should have retrieved them. Who's were the two prints that had no match to anyone?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on June 29, 2013, 04:29:31 PM
Are you suggesting they dusted the panes but not the rest of the window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 29, 2013, 04:32:37 PM
Maybe you don't understand the meaning of the word indecipherable Red??
The PJ scene of crimes woman would not have noted blotched prints or partial smears as they were meaningless. Just like the DNA which was never sampled and the dog alerts which were never made there would have been many other prints all over the window but so badly disintegrated so as to be worthless to any investigation. Let common sense prevail!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:33:47 PM
Are you suggesting they dusted the panes but not the rest of the window?
No, I'm ASKING A QUESTION...
ETA Never mind, I already have the answer
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club: Inside glass of the window in the children's bedroom. Five prints were recovered; three of the middle finger of the left hand and two of the index finger of the left hand of the mother of the missing child. Only the inside of the glass was examined at this time due the fact that it was night and the location was sealed until there was sufficient light to allow the examination of the residence to be completed.
But what kind of question is it? if the police dust an area they dust it all, they dont decide to dust one bit and not another
This photo shows the framing being dusted which will have included the window knob (http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P9/09_VOLUME_IXa_Page_2319.jpg)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:47:49 PM
At apartment 5A, Ocean Club:
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
So what happened with; outside of the window, inside of the shutters & the doorknobs? Not a word mentioned about anyone having examined those...
Translation:
Processos Vol VI
Page 1520
Date: 2007/05/18
Service Information
To: The Coordinator of the Investigation, G. Amaral
From: Assistant Specialist Irene Trovao
Subject: Identification of finger print
I inform you that according to report nº 140/07 there is a single finger print with sufficient value for identification.
It was revealed with Dragon Blood and gathered from the side of the living room window/door of Ocean Club apartment 5 A on 4th May 2007 after the disappearance of the child.
This morning Officer Silva delivered various fingerprints belonging to his officers who were on duty at the apartment on the night of 3 – 4 May 2007.
These were compared to the finger print which was identified as being that of Nelson Filipe Pacheco da Costa of the Lagos GNR.
Signed
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 04:54:14 PM
Pardon, I thought the thread was about the windows/shutters. The information posted is from the official files & it regards the windows/shutters & the fingerprints found on them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 05:01:12 PM
- Side of the patio door: One adequate print recovered but not matched to known persons.
- Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.- Outside of the external blinds to the children's bedroom: three inadequate prints were recovered.
Pardon, I thought the thread was about the windows/shutters. The information posted is from the official files & it regards the windows/shutters & the fingerprints found on them.
indeed, but you switched the discussion from(non existent unidentified prints on the bedroom window) one thing to another and ignored answers given to you in between to your questions
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 05:07:48 PM
46.37 – Let’s review: First, the front door and the window were not forced. Second, the window was opened by the mother. Third, it’s impossible for a lone abductor to carry out the child without leaving traces on the beds and on the window.
46.37 – Let’s review: First, the front door and the window were not forced. Second, the window was opened by the mother. Third, it’s impossible for a lone abductor to carry out the child without leaving traces on the beds and on the window.
46.37 – Let’s review: First, the front door and the window were not forced. Second, the window was opened by the mother. Third, it’s impossible for a lone abductor to carry out the child without leaving traces on the beds and on the window.
Aww...you only like SOME parts of the files, I take it, not all of it then. Especially not the facts that don't support your accusations. Go figure...
never made any accusations, still, you shifted the argument without explaining, and Inever said i dont agree with or dont like any part of the evidence in the files, I discuss it as and when 8)--))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 05:13:12 PM
Can you get a more incompetent fingerprint forensic specialist that this?
That's just mind boggling, there she is IN A CRIME SCENE. No gloves, no protective clothing - NOTHING.
So? Shes only dusting the window and shutters, she didnt touch them did she?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on June 29, 2013, 05:20:08 PM
An abductor would have worn gloves as rightly evidenced by the absence of any unaccounted for prints on the window and the external shutter. Did Jane Tanner say that the alleged abductor had gloves on per chance??
However I do have serious reservations as to why there were no shoe marks or dirt left on the inside window sill or on the duvet cover on the single bed which was situated just inside the window and over which any intruder would have disturbed???
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 05:36:31 PM
An abductor would have worn gloves as rightly evidenced by the absence of any unaccounted for prints on the window and the external shutter. Did Jane Tanner say that the alleged abductor had gloves on per chance??
However I do have serious reservations as to why there were no shoe marks or dirt left on the inside window sill or on the duvet cover on the single bed which was situated just inside the window and over which any intruder would have disturbed???
Look back to the photo that Blossom posted of the bedroom. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.30
There was no need to trample on the bed to get out through the window. I personally don't find it likely that an adult would have climbed in or out of it, but that's not the point.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 05:47:05 PM
I don't personally think any abductor would take the risk of climbing in & out of windows, someone exiting or entering a door is an everyday occurrence, but if you see a person trying to climb in or out of windows you'd immediately take notice.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 05:47:57 PM
However I do have serious reservations as to why there were no shoe marks or dirt left on the inside window sill or on the duvet cover on the single bed which was situated just inside the window and over which any intruder would have disturbed???
Was it checked for any though?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on June 29, 2013, 05:53:01 PM
I don't personally think any abductor would take the risk of climbing in & out of windows, someone exiting or entering a door is an everyday occurrence, but if you see a person trying to climb in or out of windows you'd immediately take notice.
Totally agree. I think they opened the window/shutters to give themselves an extra means of escape - as they knew that when the McCanns did come to check, it would be via the patio door. Also you can't see anything from the front door because it is recessed so far back, but you can see the whole pathway - both ways from the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on June 29, 2013, 06:05:02 PM
A pity there was no reconstruction showing whether a man carrying a child could swiftly escape through the window after having pulled the strap, all this with only one hand.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on June 29, 2013, 06:15:09 PM
A pity there was no reconstruction showing whether a man carrying a child could swiftly escape through the window after having pulled the strap, all this with only one hand.
Look back to the photo that Blossom posted of the bedroom. http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.30
There was no need to trample on the bed to get out through the window. I personally don't find it likely that an adult would have climbed in or out of it, but that's not the point.
Here is a better view of the children's bedroom layout adjacent to the window.
(http://i.imgur.com/VdQGRzD.jpg)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on June 29, 2013, 06:58:53 PM
Here is a better view of the children's bedroom layout adjacent to the window.
(http://i.imgur.com/VdQGRzD.jpg)
Heriberto has looked at this before and his theory is that the abductor managed to entice a sleepy Madeleine over to the window in the darkness and out of which she was lifted. Certainly a possibility which would not have necessitated the need for the abductor to go into the bedroom at all.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mrs. B on June 29, 2013, 07:15:22 PM
Apparently there were LOADS of footprints - but of course.....
Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
Apparently there were LOADS of footprints - but of course.....
Initially the search began for latent shoe-prints it being verified that dozens existed on the floor, in the various rooms of the apartment, which invalidated the attempt of identifying those of the perpetrator. Also, innumerable tracks [footprints] that were taken to be canine in origin mixed with red- and white-coloured chemical products, as used to see fingerprints, and an enormous quantity of hairs probably of animal (dog) origin that made it difficult to find possible traces, especially in the bedroom of two single beds and two children's cots from where the minor disappeared, and next to the aluminium window/door leading from inside the living room to the exterior area behind the apartment.
Totally agree. I think they opened the window/shutters to give themselves an extra means of escape - as they knew that when the McCanns did come to check, it would be via the patio door. Also you can't see anything from the front door because it is recessed so far back, but you can see the whole pathway - both ways from the window.
But any intruder would open the window as soon as they entered the apartment and if, as Gerry thinks, the abductor was already in the apartment when he did his check surely the window would have been open then ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on June 30, 2013, 12:02:04 AM
I don't personally think any abductor would take the risk of climbing in & out of windows, someone exiting or entering a door is an everyday occurrence, but if you see a person trying to climb in or out of windows you'd immediately take notice.
No-one climbed thru that window and neither was Madeleine passed thru it, altho Heris theory could be a possibility.
There is too much effort being made to take the eye away from the front door being used and too much effort being made to try and push the window. Just look at the Pat Brown fiasco. Having intimated the window had just Kates prints on it (NONSENSE!) they even went to the trouble and expense of cutting down a fine row of trees and fitting a huge search light to try and prove that the window and blind were part of a set up by the Mccanns. Because it was so obvious with being so overlooked, that no abductor would go in that way.
Earlier, we noticed that the lifter would have had Madeleines head on his right arm, yet bundleman had Madeleine on his left arm. Therefore it appears that there were at least two peeps involved (+ the director of ops / getaway driver, so probably 3 peeps) and she was passed from the lifter to bundleman, hence M's head moving from rightarm of lifter to Left arm of bundleman .
The window was opened for a number of reasons
1) to clear any fumes 2) to give natural light 3) As an escape route 4) To give support and advice to the lifter 5) To pass things thru to the lifter 6) To present a Red Herring that madeleine had climbed out that way, or ... 7) To take attention away from the front door, with its obvious implications that a key was used .... so there was a connection to OC itself 8) To have good visibilty of anyone approaching across the car park or along the walled pathway
Plus another couple of things which I cant remember atm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: imustpointout on October 26, 2013, 01:12:31 PM
The webcam was originally used to track Brown on her Portuguese adventure that led to the revelation that the shutter could indeed be opened from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on October 26, 2013, 01:15:16 PM
The webcam was originally used to track Brown on her Portuguese adventure that led to the revelation that the shutter could indeed be opened from outside.
Lifted 8(0(* And it falls back down doesn't it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on October 27, 2013, 01:38:07 AM
It does indeed. What any intruder has to do is raise the shutter with one hand, slide open the window with the other and then reach in and pull the strap. Hey presto...shutter is up.
A locked window renders the entire exercise impossible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on October 27, 2013, 01:49:29 AM
It does indeed. What any intruder has to do is raise the shutter with one hand, slide open the window with the other and then reach in and pull the strap. Hey presto...shutter is up.
A locked window renders the entire exercise impossible.
Indeed. You pull it up, hold it.. open the window.. then catch the strap on the wall to secure the shutter and open it properly and you are in and the window stays open
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on October 27, 2013, 08:09:16 AM
No abductor used the window - there was no need the doors were unlocked. This is just something Team M cling to in order to try to make the couple look less negligent.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on October 28, 2013, 06:25:38 AM
What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option ( involvement of the parents ) . It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of 'staging' a crime
The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories ( woke and wandered/ abduction ) because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios
I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
The shutter.
I lived in Cyprus we had a small villa with shutters exactly the same. They were for security reasons and to keep the room cool or get some fresh air as they could be lifted by the internal mechanism.
When in the shut position there was no way you could open them from the outside.
When we would open them fully they made a real racket.
LIFTING a shutter at night the sound would resound as it does at night.
I totally discount the shutters were broken/open/etc, not by an abductor anyway.
ALSO lets just say for arguements sake the shutters were up when the McCanns went out. Perhaps an abductor could have got in the window, but then would have probably fallen over bouncing OFF the bed, and hitting the twins in their travel cots. The bed under the window would have carried some trace of outside intruder. Stuff sticks on the bottom of your shoes.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 11, 2013, 09:09:39 PM
It does indeed. What any intruder has to do is raise the shutter with one hand, slide open the window with the other and then reach in and pull the strap. Hey presto...shutter is up. A locked window renders the entire exercise impossible.
I have worked out how a burglar would apply this method. At the first target apartment from outside he lifts the shutter about 100mm, tries to slide the window, if it is locked it won't slide, so he gently lowers the shutter back down, and moves on. Tries a second apartment, maybe same thing, lifts shutter a little, window locked. Moves on. Third apartment, lifts shutter about 100mm, finds window does slide, reaches inside to fully open shutter using strap, and its bye bye to any jewellery passposts money the holiday makers have left in apartment. All based on the statistics, that a percentage of holidaymakers, thinking the shutters provide complete security, don't press the lock button on the sliding window. BTW I have read elsewhere a description by someone who tested this method succesfully on similar sliding window with external shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 11, 2013, 09:54:23 PM
All based on the statistics, that a percentage of holidaymakers, thinking the shutters provide complete security, don't press the lock button on the sliding window.
When you close the window completely, it's automatically locked. You have to press a button to unlock and slide it. This might be why there are fingerprints of Mrs McCann on the window frame. She tried to slide it without pushing the button to unlock it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 11, 2013, 10:26:58 PM
I was assuming that the kids bedroom window in the PJ photos has 2 black buttons? One above the other. And so I was assuming the lower button is to unlock and the top button is to lock. Maybe I am wrong about this. I must look again at the PJ photos, and at Mr Flores window examination video
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 11, 2013, 10:38:50 PM
I was assuming that the kids bedroom window in the PJ photos has 2 black buttons? One above the other. And so I was assuming the lower button is to unlock and the top button is to lock. Maybe I am wrong about this. I must look again at the PJ photos, and at Mr Flores window examination video
Yes, looks like it.
(http://s16.postimg.org/tgtgd2afp/totl4.png)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 12, 2013, 12:18:13 AM
One of the the ideas on Crimewatch was: attempted petty burglary, so I am now watching a video of Moita Flores demonstrating how the window operates. There are two buttons. I think the upper is the lock button and the lower is the unlock button. When he presses one button in, automatically the other button pops out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 01:58:54 PM
One of the the ideas on Crimewatch was: attempted petty burglary, so I am now watching a video of Moita Flores demonstrating how the window operates. There are two buttons. I think the upper is the lock button and the lower is the unlock button. When he presses one button in, automatically the other button pops out.
When you completely close the window, the button pops out, like on the picture above. To slide the window, you first have to push that button.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on November 12, 2013, 02:04:10 PM
When you completely close the window, the button pops out, like on the picture above. To slide the window, you first have to push that button.
So if the window is fully closed it locks automatically. Therefore Gerry couldn't have possibly assumed it had been 'forced' from the outside, could he ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 12, 2013, 02:24:08 PM
GA: It is our conviction, and from the indicia that were collected during those initial months, that it would be materially impossible for this window to be the means of entry or exit, particularly since there are no traces of a break-in. What we have instead are vestiges of a simulation inside - namely a simulation where the window is opened. There are fingerprints of Kate McCann opening the window towards her left hand-side, whereas she says the window has always been closed, with the shutters always down and therefore all these... There are no footprints or anything similar. Undeniably, this window, as I have said before, is a window 'facing the world' and it is where the solution of the case lies.
HC: As the investigators put it, no one enters through a door and then exits through a window!
GA: It is a fact and if you watch closely, the door it is less exposed than the window. It would be much more spectacular to exit through the window rather than the door, which is rather more hidden, more receded than the window. Therefore, this door would be a more obvious way to exit.
Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, on the kitchen's counter. Right away, the lies started. Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 12, 2013, 02:34:09 PM
GA: It is our conviction, and from the indicia that were collected during those initial months, that it would be materially impossible for this window to be the means of entry or exit, particularly since there are no traces of a break-in. What we have instead are vestiges of a simulation inside - namely a simulation where the window is opened. There are fingerprints of Kate McCann opening the window towards her left hand-side, whereas she says the window has always been closed, with the shutters always down and therefore all these... There are no footprints or anything similar. Undeniably, this window, as I have said before, is a window 'facing the world' and it is where the solution of the case lies.
HC: As the investigators put it, no one enters through a door and then exits through a window!
GA: It is a fact and if you watch closely, the door it is less exposed than the window. It would be much more spectacular to exit through the window rather than the door, which is rather more hidden, more receded than the window. Therefore, this door would be a more obvious way to exit.
Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, on the kitchen's counter. Right away, the lies started. Moreover, in order to have an abductor he would have had to enter through here [sliding doors]. Apart from the fact that there are no traces of a break-in, there aren't any fingerprints, he could have used gloves for example, in any case the entry would have to be done through here. There are no signs of a forced entry anywhere; not in the door nor in the window. There is a simulation, as if someone wishes to make others believe that the bedroom window was the passage point of the child, which, in our firm belief, could not have taken place.
MF says it is more likely that the child died. And he adds it is impossible that someone passed through the window with a child. He says the abduction theory then doesn't make sense. He observes that there are many possibilities, it's perfectly admissible for instance that the child went out to search for her parents. If the child died, it could have been outside of the flat or in the flat. But, he says, the disappearance never could have happened through the window, he insists that it is essential to understand that it is technically, humanly, impossible. The witness concludes affirming that all the hypotheses are possible, except for the abduction “through that window”.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 02:37:27 PM
So if the window is fully closed it locks automatically. Therefore Gerry couldn't have possible assumed it had been 'forced' from the outside, could he ?
As Icabodcrane said, this window was the Columbo's mistake.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 12, 2013, 02:49:17 PM
MF says it is more likely that the child died. And he adds it is impossible that someone passed through the window with a child. He says the abduction theory then doesn't make sense. He observes that there are many possibilities, it's perfectly admissible for instance that the child went out to search for her parents. If the child died, it could have been outside of the flat or in the flat. But, he says, the disappearance never could have happened through the window, he insists that it is essential to understand that it is technically, humanly, impossible. The witness concludes affirming that all the hypotheses are possible, except for the abduction “through that window”.
The window was the only tangible sign of abduction because no child of that age would have gone out this way. In itself it explained perfectly Mrs McCann's certitude that Madeleine had been taken. The forced window was then the best ploy to convince the planet that an exceptional abduction had occurred. But the police verified that nobody had passed through that window and nobody actually saw it open. A red herring ? Certainly !
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 12, 2013, 03:04:21 PM
Taking all things into consideration, I think its very fair to say no one opened the shutter or window from the outside
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 13, 2013, 12:02:06 AM
Having opened both the shutter and the window by the three-stage method which other posters described earlier in this thread, which statistically works for a percentage of attempts, it is interesting to note that of the three stages, it is the third stage makes the greatest noise. Next consider the scenario, if having just completed the opening of window and shutter, but not having climbed in yet, the petty burglar suddemly hears and/or sees movement inside. Every petty burglar would in this scenario, for fear of getting caught, immediatley and rapidly sneak away, and would certainly not enter. So we would see afterwards an open shutter and an open window, but with no damage, and paradoxically a bed next to the the window with no footprints, and no missing passports jewellery etc. The reason for the paradox being that the petty burglar is interupted by something, so he never enters, and takes absolutely nothing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 09:51:47 PM
Having opened both the shutter and the window by the three-stage method which other posters described earlier in this thread, which statistically works for a percentage of attempts, it is interesting to note that of the three stages, it is the third stage makes the greatest noise. Next consider the scenario, if having just completed the opening of window and shutter, but not having climbed in yet, the petty burglar suddemly hears and/or sees movement inside. Every petty burglar would in this scenario, for fear of getting caught, immediatley and rapidly sneak away, and would certainly not enter. So we would see afterwards an open shutter and an open window, but with no damage, and paradoxically a bed next to the the window with no footprints, and no missing passports jewellery etc. The reason for the paradox being that the petty burglar is interupted by something, so he never enters, and takes absolutely nothing.
They could only open the window if it was left open, to be slid across...the mccanns say it was closed....the shutter if rolled up enough from the outside, they would have to reach in and raise it from the proper mechanism to keep it up as Kate Mccann said it was found.....otherwise it would just roll back down....the windiw and shutted were not opened and raised from outside....Imo
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 13, 2013, 10:51:06 PM
They could only open the window if it was left open, to be slid across...the mccanns say it was closed....the shutter if rolled up enough from the outside, they would have to reach in and raise it from the proper mechanism to keep it up as Kate Mccann said it was found.....otherwise it would just roll back down....the windiw and shutted were not opened and raised from outside....Imo
Assuming the shutter is closed, my opinion is If the window is closed, and afterwards the top button is pressed, then a burglar cannot gain entry without force. If the window is closed, and aftyerwards the top button not pressed, then a burglar can gain entry without force. I will post the video I learned this from.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 13, 2013, 10:53:49 PM
A very useful video of the window is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTNXowdzksI
If you carefully watch the last minute of this video (commencing at 8 minutes and 30 seconds) over and over, it is possible to work out exactly: What the upper button does, What the lower button does, What the hole in the outer sliding frame is for, Whether or not there is an angled latch-plate next to that hole, Whether the window auto-locks or not.
P.S. its in portugeuse but no problem as it is best watched without audio, because all the information about the mechanism is visual.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 11:03:11 PM
The window when shut autolocks so not accessible to open from outside, bit lost here now....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 13, 2013, 11:33:28 PM
I think the window does not auto-lock. I worked this out by watching many times MF closing the window in the video. If you simply close the window, its status is unlocked. After closing the window, to lock it requires the further deliberate action of pressing the upper button. IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on November 13, 2013, 11:44:32 PM
Inspector Rebelo and his team also paid lots of attention to the window. I remember the photos of them playing with the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 13, 2013, 11:57:42 PM
I think the window does not auto-lock. I worked this out by watching many times MF closing the window in the video. If you simply close the window, its status is unlocked. After closing the window, to lock it requires the further deliberate action of pressing the upper button. IMO.
No you are wrong.....its similar to uk double glazing windows, you shut the window it locks...you draw that window in in 5a shut and the notch comes out automatically...locked..in any case the mccanns said their windows were closed, so no one opened them from outside, thats the main thing......
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 14, 2013, 01:25:37 AM
I might be wrong, I just like to understand the mechanism. I see a round hole, without any angled slope, so I like to understand what pushes the metal pin into that hole.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on November 14, 2013, 02:09:54 AM
I might be wrong, I just like to understand the mechanism. I see a round hole, without any angled slope, so I like to understand what pushes the metal pin into that hole.
I think the police would know this detail and it would be in files. If the window is auto locked when closed from inside.These were sliding windows. I have them at home and mine are very easy to open from outside. If they are auto locked then the force to open them might be noticeable. Mine have locking mechanism in the middle but it is not automatic, one has to do it and I do it very rarely. I might be wrong but I thought Gerry mentioned somewhere that he had locked these windows. On another note, if these windows are opened by a professional thief then they can open them without any big notice, it has happened to me in one of my student accommodation in past. That Spanish criminologist who wrote a blog has written about the windows and how to open them. http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html My home sliding windows are exactly the same as the ones he has in the video.
IMO it would be impossible to enter the 5A through the window and not leave any signs of it. IMO the window was open from inside. Why, nobody knows..
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 14, 2013, 03:15:42 AM
I agree with MF, that abduction through the window did not happen. When MF examined the window, at that same time there also was a reconstruction involving an actor trying to climb out through that window (this is the actual real window at 5A) with a child, and the actor seems to get stuck about halfway out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on November 14, 2013, 04:50:28 AM
I agree with MF, that abduction through the window did not happen. When MF examined the window, at that same time there also was a reconstruction involving an actor trying to climb out through that window (this is the actual real window at 5A) with a child, and the actor seems to get stuck about halfway out.
Very stupid of him, IMO. Of course the window was not opened for the abductor to go out with the child. But for example the window could have been used to pass the child through. To mask the fact the intruder had the key.To look for accomplice appearing. To get something from accomplice, such as stroller. And many other reasons. How he can connect this onlyy option of kidnapper not going through the window with a child as abduction therefore not possible and child being dead is beyond belief...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 14, 2013, 09:04:17 AM
The raised shutter and the open window were a divert. Several people passed the window that evening after Madeleine left the apartment and not one of them noticed anything untoward. Its not as if they weren't aware of the window since they were. Matt speaks of listening at the window so he was very aware if it. The forensics confirms that no intruder used that window.
Unless the contrary can be proven I stay with the woke, wandered and waylaid theory.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 14, 2013, 02:58:54 PM
The raised shutter and the open window were a divert. Several people passed the window that evening after Madeleine left the apartment and not one of them noticed anything untoward. Its not as if they weren't aware of the window since they were. Matt speaks of listening at the window so he was very aware if it. The forensics confirms that no intruder used that window.
Unless the contrary can be proven I stay with the woke, wandered and waylaid theory.
I did think that to start. One thing though was the child gate shut or locked? IF she came out of the patio doors she would encounter the stair gate, I am sure i read in one of the rogatorys it was shut.....
Also in PDL at the time there was work going on in parts of the town wasnt there with pipes and things. So easy for a little one to fall into a hole and never be seen again.
I certainly wouldnt dismiss this scenario.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on November 14, 2013, 09:17:59 PM
I did think that to start. One thing though was the child gate shut or locked? IF she came out of the patio doors she would encounter the stair gate, I am sure i read in one of the rogatorys it was shut.....
Also in PDL at the time there was work going on in parts of the town wasnt there with pipes and things. So easy for a little one to fall into a hole and never be seen again.
I certainly wouldnt dismiss this scenario.
For this scenario she would need to open her room doors, open the curtain on the patio, close the curtain, close the patio behind her, open the gate, close the gate behind.
Would Madeleine be able to do all of this in the middle of night and in no light?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 14, 2013, 09:59:20 PM
Nobody saw the shutters and the window open. Mrs Webster, five minutes after the alarm, saw them closed. We only have the McCanns' word for them to be open. It suited very well their interest of making believe an abduction had occurred. From bed. (an abduction out of bed makes them guilty). For this the shutters had to be forced(family)/open(PJ. This was proved to be inept as nobody passed through the window, forensic corroborating. Ergo the shutters/window were only open in words to simulate an abduction from bed. If Madeleine was abducted outside of the flat, would or wouldn't the McCanns have hampered the investigation with an invention only made to pull the guilt out of them ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 15, 2013, 01:07:25 AM
I posted a video link which shows opening and closing of the actual window, with two buttons, and a round hole which has no angled latch-plate, and suggested the window is not auto-locking. Enough of boring mechanics. I am happy to go with the auto-locking window for now. The statements say the window was initially in the closed position but are uncertain whether it was locked or not. However, if we know the window auto-locks, and was initially in the closed position, then surely it must have been locked, which would mean unforced entry from outside is impossible, does that make sense?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 16, 2013, 06:31:12 AM
I posted a video link which shows opening and closing of the actual window, with two buttons, and a round hole which has no angled latch-plate, and suggested the window is not auto-locking. Enough of boring mechanics. I am happy to go with the auto-locking window for now. The statements say the window was initially in the closed position but are uncertain whether it was locked or not. However, if we know the window auto-locks, and was initially in the closed position, then surely it must have been locked, which would mean unforced entry from outside is impossible, does that make sense?
YES perfect sense. Also these shutters and windows are designed to keep people OUT not in.
The shutters are also for security too as well as keeping the room cool. I wouldnt want to live on the ground floor without them. I would think it would make them very hard to break INTO without a lot of noise....
We seem to go around and around with the windows and shutters lol.
To be honest anyone climbing in would not see the bed underneath and more then likely go up poop when standing on it with shock........and hurt themselves...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 16, 2013, 10:19:38 AM
Time the shutters were put to bed. There was no need for them to be used the doors were unlocked. They were opened to make things look better.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 16, 2013, 01:30:38 PM
Yes.. A detail to "look better" but, as Icabodcrane called it, the Columbo mistake.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 16, 2013, 10:05:39 PM
IMO the very first physical event that night is someone opens the shutter and window from outside. But then (and this is the crucial thing) that person then does NOT enter the apartment, instead quickly leaving the scene, empty-handed, has no connection with anyone else, and plays no further part in whatever follows. Whatever follows may be better investigated from this revised starting point IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 17, 2013, 11:57:57 AM
The Phantom Shutter Opener?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 17, 2013, 12:00:21 PM
In this scenario I am suggesting, it all starts when a person opens the shutter and window from outside, with a perfectly logical reason for doing so, which is the statistically the most common reason for unauthorised opening of a shutter and window from outside, to enter and steal money/jewellery/creditcards/passports
Then this person leaves without even entering, and without taking anything. Again there is a perfectly logical reason for this. Just as they were finishing opening the shutter and window, and before they had set foot inside, they got disturbed by movement and/or noise inside. Elementary. The person, having thought until then that everyone was out, rapidly leaves the scene empty-handed, never returning.
This scenario deals with only the first 15 seconds or so, and may appear to do nothing but introduce an unnecessary complication? However the strength of this scenario becomes clearer when it is used to examine its effects on whatever followed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 17, 2013, 10:34:07 PM
Lace you can open the shutters by lifting the web cord from inside, as you are supposed to do,no reason to put your prints on them at all, unless you are Gerry Mccann or Diane Webster tampering with evidence!
Thanks so much Red for bringing this back. I had almost forgotten that video, from when there was true journalism, before they were gagged by Carter Ruck.
The observations in that video and the fact that Mrs McCann refused a polygraph when offered one, after having stated she would do it [http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-494765/Now-Kate-McCann-refuses-lie-detector-test-clear-name.html (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-494765/Now-Kate-McCann-refuses-lie-detector-test-clear-name.html)], are very revealing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 17, 2013, 10:37:13 PM
Time the shutters were put to bed. There was no need for them to be used the doors were unlocked. They were opened to make things look better.
Are you sure the doors were unlocked?!
They only said so after their "jemmied shutters" was blown out....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 17, 2013, 11:15:50 PM
The scenario I suggested explains, using only two statistically common events, how it is possible that the window and shutter are open, even though no-one passes through them. Now to consider in this scenario: Why does this person not enter? What noise/movement interrupts this person? It can not be any of the 3 checkers who interrupts this person, (because if so the checker, inside, would have heard the shutter being raised, but none of the checkers heard this).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Fierljepper on November 17, 2013, 11:30:29 PM
There seems to be plenty of evidence (lichen/sills/bed) that nobody has entered or exitted through the window. This leads to the only alternative being staging. And in the case of staging, you would not logically land on an abductor or burglar but more likely on one of the parents being involved. And if it involves the parents, I'd rather go for one (GM) than both being involved.
I am still bothered by two very strange anomalies in GM's earliest statements. One is that he claimed entering the front door when he checked the kids at 21:00 (that he later corrected) and the other is his peculiar focus on checking whether the shutters could be opened from the outside after the alarm was raised and panic broke out.
The first one is pretty strange given that they always entered through the patio door to check their children in the evenings. If GM however had found Maddie already dead, staged a kidnap by opening the window (avoiding fingerprints) and shutters and then used the front door to move her body out of the apartment, he had to explain why the always double-locked front door, suddenly was found unlocked. Him using a lie of having entered through it the night before is then the safest explanation to mitigate this problem in an official statement the day after, but something he could relax about later and say he went through the patio door. It is however a noticeable and remarkably inaccurate element in his victim statement of May 4th.
The second anomaly around checking the shutters, is the most likely action to focus on when you have to make sure that your staging is feasible. This could even have been his biggest concern whether the staging would be believable or not. Clearly KM (innocent in this scenario) fell for it and immediately assumed an abduction had happened and that message rapidly radiated through the T9 group, the press and was reinforced by the Tannerman sighting.
So, GM reporting the door wider open is untrue, however MO seeing the door wider open and the room being lighter are true, KM seeing the door wider open and it slamming when she tried to close it are also true.
It seems the simplest scenario possible, but of course the key question is where the body then was hidden and later removed to (e.g. in a sports bag and later dumped in a bin).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 17, 2013, 11:55:56 PM
The theory that the door angle did increase once is reasonable, and a simple explanation is someone wakes up and walks out of the bedroom into the lounge.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on November 18, 2013, 05:23:12 PM
Thank pegassus. The video you mentioned demonstrates 5A window had not an auto-lock, or the auto-lock could be failed.
See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElN3iLhbmf8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ElN3iLhbmf8)
The video lasts only a few seconds ...
And here the method to open an unlocked window from the outside without damage ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzpniKAWvUI
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 18, 2013, 05:55:01 PM
They only said so after their "jemmied shutters" was blown out....
I think they only admitted about the unlocked doors once they realised the shutters weren't going to wash - they did not want to admit to the scale of their carelessness until forced to. Of course now having started the shutters nonsense they have had to stick with it they can't admit they opened them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 18, 2013, 06:21:32 PM
Even if true, why does it matter? Forensics proved no one came in or out of that window.......
Not only the Portuguese forensics, but Prof David Barclay and Moita Flores. And it's valid for way in and way out. It's reasonable to think neither the shutters nor the window were open. What was the point of opening them if there was nobody to witness ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on November 18, 2013, 08:13:39 PM
I think they only admitted about the unlocked doors once they realised the shutters weren't going to wash - they did not want to admit to the scale of their carelessness until forced to. Of course now having started the shutters nonsense they have had to stick with it they can't admit they opened them.
Sorry but what do you mean by 'once they realised the shutters weren't going to wash'?
The shutters were not broken. So do you think that intelligent people would say they were if they weren't? when someone could look at them and say 'hey they're not broken' . The McCann's thought someone had opened them from outside, how? they did not know, but by possibly forcing them up.
They could be opened from outside as the video demonstrates.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2013, 08:40:54 PM
Agreed no-one came in or went out of that window. That window and shutter have confused the GNR, the PJ, the LP, forum posters, even the analysis in the Verdade video, and presumably even today SY and PJ Porto. And at the beginning, they confused three people who tried to experimentally solve the shutter/window puzzle that night. Incorrect logic, incorrect application of Occams principle, meant IMO that none of them solved it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 18, 2013, 08:46:52 PM
Agreed no-one came in or went out of that window. That window and shutter have confused the GNR, the PJ, the LP, forum posters, even the analysis in the Verdade video, and presumably even today SY and PJ Porto. And at the beginning, they confused three people who tried to experimentally solve the shutter/window puzzle that night. Incorrect logic, incorrect application of Occams principle, meant IMO that none of them solved it.
The open window and shutter is hearsay...no one saw it....no one had a chance to because gerry mccann went and closed it pdq immediately after the alarm was raised.... to go outside and test it! If it could be opened from outside...and thus contaminating the evidence......where is the logic in that as some kind of priority? This is before he went out searching!
Edited for spellos
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2013, 09:20:18 PM
The first part of the video is very good. Yes it should omit the first two raises of the shutter which are unnecessary. Also I think it would take maybe only 10 seconds to get the window and shutter completely open by this method, if the person has done it before and knows the method well. So the first 40 seconds of the video is very good, but should be compressed IMO to maybe only 10 or 15 seconds for the entire opening method.
The second half of the video is impossible IMO. You have the man asking the child to walk across the room to the window? If I was young, on holiday, asleep, and then awakened and scared by that shutter noise, would I calmly stay in the room to politely await instructions? No way. I would be straight out that door into the lounge.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on November 18, 2013, 09:41:01 PM
The first part of the video is very good. Yes it should omit the first two raises of the shutter which are unnecessary. Also I think it would take maybe only 10 seconds to get the window and shutter completely open by this method, if the person has done it before and knows the method well. So the first 40 seconds of the video is very good, but should be compressed IMO to maybe only 10 or 15 seconds for the entire opening method.
The second half of the video is impossible IMO. You have the man asking the child to walk across the room to the window? If I was young, on holiday, asleep, and then awakened and scared by that shutter noise, would I calmly stay in the room to politely await instructions? No way. I would be straight out that door into the lounge.
A possibility not to discard: 1. A burglar opened the window. 2. While the window was been opened, Madeleine went to the window, half asleep, thinking he was one of her parents.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2013, 10:07:46 PM
My suggestion for the video is Edit out the first two raises and compress the entire opening of window and shutter down to about 10 or 15 seconds, because IMO the person has done unauthorised opening of other similar windows/shutters before. Then while still doing the opening, the person gets suddenly scared by movement/noise inside, so runs away empty-handed, not having set foot inside. Does this scenario not fit the evidence? Window and shutter open: Tick. No evidence of anyone entering or leaving via window: Tick. Door from bedroom to lounge opened wider: Tick
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 18, 2013, 10:12:03 PM
A possibility not to discard: 1. A burglar opened the window. 2. While the window was been opened, Madeleine went to the window, half asleep, thinking he was one of her parents.
So the burglar decided to pull the chlld out and abduct them instead of running off.....he was so scared of being found out for a burglary BY A THREE YEAR OLD he upped his crime to abduction of the chld witness!!!! Gosh a prison sentence twenty times @)(++(*
Maybe he thought she could do an efit of him trying to burgle 5a, you do post some stupid stuff heri sometimes.....sorry mate
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on November 18, 2013, 10:15:42 PM
My suggestion for the video is Edit out the first two raises and compress the entire opening of window and shutter down to about 10 or 15 seconds, because IMO the person has done unauthorised opening of other similar windows/shutters before. Then while still doing the opening, the person gets suddenly scared by movement/noise inside, so runs away empty-handed, not having set foot inside. Does this scenario not fit the evidence? Window and shutter open: Tick. No evidence of anyone entering or leaving via window: Tick. Door from bedroom to lounge opened wider: Tick
Thanks pegassus. The first two rises are not necessary, as I explain in my blog: http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com.es/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 18, 2013, 10:39:17 PM
I think the walking direction you suggest (walking towards the window towards the scary noise) is impossible. I agree with the towards parents bit, but surely this would be the exact opposite direction to what you propose. People naturally move away from danger, towards safety. This would also explain the door being slightly wider open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on November 18, 2013, 10:43:08 PM
I think the walking direction you suggest (walking towards the window towards the scary noise) is impossible. I agree with the towards parents bit, but surely this would be the exact opposite direction to what you propose. People naturally move away from danger, towards safety. This would also explain the door being slightly wider open.
Madeleine, half asleep and under poor light, thinking: "Mom (or Dad) is opening the window". No scary noise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 18, 2013, 10:50:12 PM
Madeleine, half asleep and under poor lightning, thinking: "Mom (or Dad) is opening the window". No scary noise.
Your theory, if I remember correctly, is that someone opened the shutters/window from the outside, and Madeleine voluntarily walked towards it to be lifted out by an abductor whose good fortune could never be predicted ... ( given that most children would not behave that way )
I think that it is a very silly theory, if I may say so
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 18, 2013, 11:10:35 PM
LOL heres Heri abducting a sack....
Now Heri why WOULD a burglar abduct a child? And if you dont mind me saying I find you rather creepy!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 18, 2013, 11:14:59 PM
Xrist, that's creepy ... s*** me right up that did !
Some people get WAY too invested ...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 19, 2013, 12:43:36 AM
I think the video is very good, and (up to 40 seconds) very plausible. I would assume it is a petty burglar, who has decided, using the usual indications, that everyone is out. Especially good is that the audio accurately records the noise, as it sounds to anyone inside the room, so that people can consider what effect this would have.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 19, 2013, 06:50:33 AM
The first part of the video is very good. Yes it should omit the first two raises of the shutter which are unnecessary. Also I think it would take maybe only 10 seconds to get the window and shutter completely open by this method, if the person has done it before and knows the method well. So the first 40 seconds of the video is very good, but should be compressed IMO to maybe only 10 or 15 seconds for the entire opening method.
The second half of the video is impossible IMO. You have the man asking the child to walk across the room to the window? If I was young, on holiday, asleep, and then awakened and scared by that shutter noise, would I calmly stay in the room to politely await instructions? No way. I would be straight out that door into the lounge.
I had to TURN my player DOWN, the noise was so loud I couldnt hear my T.V.
And isnt that the point?
At night it is a KNOWN fact sound is louder and travels further....possible because of its so much quieter and i think it also has something to do with other elements too.
Can you imagine not hearing that racket?
ALSO no one has attempted to open that shutter before 2007 to burglarise it, instead I believe the burgled the flats above...or one of them anyway. Why would that be....hummmm BECAUSE of the noise for one, and for two being seen by people going into the apartment block surely.
Not only that, IF the child was under the window yes it would be feasible, but under that window was a BED. The video has actually shown to me just how DIFFICULT it would be to take a child. YOU WOULD HAVE very little space to GET INTO THE ROOM, jump down onto a un unstable bed, and try to find a child in the dark.
NOW if you were going to just take a child, doing it this way well you would have gone to the first child you came too which were the 2 in cots....why risk going into the room further.
No actually I thank the poster for this video as it now has totally CONVINCED me the window was just a ruse.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 19, 2013, 07:39:31 AM
A possibility not to discard: 1. A burglar opened the window. 2. While the window was been opened, Madeleine went to the window, half asleep, thinking he was one of her parents.
With respect, ridiculous.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 19, 2013, 08:04:15 AM
Xrist, that's creepy ... s*** me right up that did !
Some people get WAY too invested ...
Even she walked over to the window, she'd have to put her arms up to the scary stranger to facilitate lifting. Otherwise you'd have to grab her by her upper arms....
I can't see a 4 year old doing that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 19, 2013, 12:42:53 PM
Even she walked over to the window, she'd have to put her arms up to the scary stranger to facilitate lifting. Otherwise you'd have to grab her by her upper arms....
I can't see a 4 year old doing that.
No I agree at 4 they do have some sense of danger. I think she would have ran out of the bedroom crying about a bogey man....i am sure my grandson the same age would have gone NUTS if he heard someone trying to get into the window....and all that noise of the shutter going up etc surely would have woke up the twins.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2013, 12:34:41 AM
Yes and so what does the petty burglar do now? Having decided there is no-one in, then having opened shutter and window, then immediatly realising he was completely wrong. (Please note he is still outside). Does he say oh well I thought no-one was in but there is but never mind I will climb in as originally intended and get arrested and get some free food in jail? No. So what does he do?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 20, 2013, 07:36:20 AM
What petty burglar?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2013, 09:07:20 AM
Mr Redwood treats the possibility of interrupted burglary seriously.
There is a clear witness account by someone who returns to their apartment and finds the window and shutter open. Surely it would be wise to consider the possibility of burglary. It is by far the single commonest cause of unauthorised opening of shutters and windows.
The evidence, that no burglar entered through the window, does not contradict the burglar hypothesis at all. It gives the valuable extra information that the burglary was disturbed just after opening, and just BEFORE entry.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Moderator on November 20, 2013, 09:15:56 AM
Mr Redwood treats the possibility of interrupted burglary seriously.
There is a clear witness account by someone who returns to their apartment and finds the window and shutter open. Surely it would be wise to consider the possibility of burglary. It is by far the single commonest cause of unauthorised opening of shutters and windows.
The evidence, that no burglar entered through the window, does not contradict the burglar hypothesis at all. It gives the valuable extra information that the burglary was disturbed just after opening, and just BEFORE entry.
The first observation I would make is that burglars don't abduct children. Secondly, burglars usually case the premises they target and avoid any which are occupied at the McCanns was.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2013, 09:34:15 AM
The first observation I would make is that burglars don't abduct children. Secondly, burglars usually case the premises they target and avoid any which are occupied at the McCanns was.
Precisely. The burglar is disturbed before he enters, so he immediately flees empty-handed, he does not abduct or physically harm anyone. And about casing: 1: Low light level coming from inside (just one small lamp in lounge). 2. No noise coming from inside. 3. Possibly sees adults leaving. Do not all three indicate clearly that everyone is out?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 20, 2013, 09:54:04 AM
Mr Redwood treats the possibility of interrupted burglary seriously.
There is a clear witness account by someone who returns to their apartment and finds the window and shutter open. Surely it would be wise to consider the possibility of burglary. It is by far the single commonest cause of unauthorised opening of shutters and windows.
The evidence, that no burglar entered through the window, does not contradict the burglar hypothesis at all. It gives the valuable extra information that the burglary was disturbed just after opening, and just BEFORE entry.
'There is a clear witness account by someone who returns to their apartment and finds the window and shutter open. '
Merely because t is a witness statement, does not make it true.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Kazcutt on November 20, 2013, 10:05:09 AM
Could an intruder have just opened the shutter No one had to go in or out from it
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2013, 10:35:04 AM
If one decides definitely that the opening of the window and shutter is staged or invented, and if one is correct, then that will be of great value, for it will avoid wasting time on impossible scenarios, like for example one would then automatically rule out the scenario of it all starting with shutter noise waking someone, because that would be impossible if the shutter noise was invented or staged?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 21, 2013, 01:55:55 PM
Did we ever look at this case from 2012?
Very similar to Madeleine in that there is no conclusive evidence for abduction despite the presence of an open window in the child's bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2013, 03:38:34 PM
That Tucson case was Apr 2012, reports say FBI used 2 dogs of two types, supposedly one dog gave an indication indoors, but can't find which dog? However back to the main case discussed here and I am now fairly convinced that a burglar started to break in but left empty-handed without entering due to being interrupted. It sounds like a ludicrously unnecessary introduction of a random extra complication, but it is not, it is the careful application of logic (which even top detectives from both countries possibly do not have a huge surplus of). It explains the contradiction of open window yet no entry/theft, it explains the door angle, and it may explain much more.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Cariad on November 21, 2013, 05:08:55 PM
That Tucson case was Apr 2012, reports say FBI used 2 dogs of two types, supposedly one dog gave an indication indoors, but can't find which dog? However back to the main case discussed here and I am now fairly convinced that a burglar started to break in but left empty-handed without entering due to being interrupted. It sounds like a ludicrously unnecessary introduction of a random extra complication, but it is not, it is the careful application of logic (which even top detectives from both countries possibly do not have a huge surplus of). It explains the contradiction of open window yet no entry/theft, it explains the door angle, and it may explain much more.
Can you elaborate?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2013, 08:23:04 PM
If a burglar opens the shutter and window from outside, intending to climb in and steal cash, cards etc, but gets interrupted before he climbs in, he will run away. So that explains perfectly the discovered scene which includes: 1. the window and shutter being open, and 2: the absence of evidence that anyone passed through that opening. For any other theory (of both types) it is difficult to realistically explain the big contradiction between 1 and 2.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Cariad on November 21, 2013, 08:48:41 PM
If a burglar opens the shutter and window from outside, intending to climb in and steal cash, cards etc, but gets interrupted before he climbs in, he will run away. So that explains perfectly the discovered scene which includes: 1. the window and shutter being open, and 2: the absence of evidence that anyone passed through that opening. For any other theory (of both types) it is difficult to realistically explain the big contradiction between 1 and 2.
Yes, I see that. I don't see how it solves The Mystery Of The Moving Door though.....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 21, 2013, 08:54:14 PM
Yes, I see that. I don't see how it solves The Mystery Of The Moving Door though.....
>@@(*&)
madeleine went out of it or the wind blew it open a bit after the hypothetical burglar opened the window.....
Mystery of the Moving Door...so Miss Marple/Poirotesque..even Midsommer Murders....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 21, 2013, 09:21:20 PM
Yes the moving door. They were obsessed by the position of the door to show that an abductor was hiding inside the apartment and it's turned into being their Achilles heel. The door is the best evidence that an abductor was never inside that apartment. It was nearly closed at 8.30pm. It was found half-open at 9.08pm then it was nearly closed, it was half-open again at 9.30pm and then it was more open on the last check. That door moved three different times in an hour. No I don't think so. There's a simple explanation for the alleged moving door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2013, 09:27:17 PM
He thinks no one is in apartment. Stage 3 of opening, which is reaching in with right hand from outside to pull strap to fully raise shutter, even gently, makes noise inside the room. He is still outside. The noise disturbs someone, who wisely exits into the lounge, and he scared by seeing/hearing that someone is home, rapidly leaves the area. So there you have the open window/shutter, no-one entering, and the increased door angle, all explained. Might be wrong but is there any other theory which explains all those 3 things logically? Not taking sides, just examining the discovered scene.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 21, 2013, 09:52:55 PM
He thinks no one is in apartment. Stage 3 of opening, which is reaching in with right hand from outside to pull strap to fully raise shutter, even gently, makes noise inside the room. He is still outside. The noise disturbs someone, who wisely exits into the lounge, and he scared by seeing/hearing that someone is home, rapidly leaves the area. So there you have the open window/shutter, no-one entering, and the increased door angle, all explained. Might be wrong but is there any other theory which explains all those 3 things logically? Not taking sides, just examining the discovered scene.
so after an attempted burglary where he ran off madeleine was snatched as well...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Cariad on November 21, 2013, 10:11:51 PM
He thinks no one is in apartment. Stage 3 of opening, which is reaching in with right hand from outside to pull strap to fully raise shutter, even gently, makes noise inside the room. He is still outside. The noise disturbs someone, who wisely exits into the lounge, and he scared by seeing/hearing that someone is home, rapidly leaves the area. So there you have the open window/shutter, no-one entering, and the increased door angle, all explained. Might be wrong but is there any other theory which explains all those 3 things logically? Not taking sides, just examining the discovered scene.
As Pathfinder says above, the door moved between 8:30 and 9:00, was repositioned, then moved again between 9:10 and 9:30. Your explanation perfectly explains everything up until 9:10, but doesn't explain the further movement after 9:10.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2013, 10:21:15 PM
so after an attempted burglary where he ran off madeleine was snatched as well...
The theory gives a logical solution for only one room, it does not explain the disappearance. It is important to get the first room making sense first. As Mr Redwood said on Crimewatch, start at the beginning, assume nothing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2013, 10:29:02 PM
Yes the sequence I proposed explains the door angle increasing once, it does not explain more than once. Thanks for pointing it out. P.S modified to remove proposed explanation, because I don't know how to account for that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 21, 2013, 10:32:01 PM
The theory gives a logical solution for only one room, it does not explain the disappearance. It is important to get the first room making sense first. As Mr Redwood said on Crimewatch, start at the beginning, assume nothing.
No, not really
Firstly it is just hearsay and uncorroborated too from a non independent witness that the window and shutter were open Secondly no forensics were found for opening the shutter and window apart from some bleared prints on the shutter which can be accounted for by the three people from the group who did stick their paws on the shutters (tampering with evidence pdq) tryng to see if they could open them from outside, the purpose of which still escapes me..... Thirdly no evidence any hypothetical burglar was interrupted...just supposition Further you have to make a presumption the window was not closed so could be just slid open by said hypothetical burglar...not even glove prints, just kate mccanns prints in the window...dont add up does it?
All in all just speculation with no evidence let alone proof, sorry
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 21, 2013, 10:40:22 PM
Yes the sequence I proposed explains the door angle increasing once, it does not explain more than once. A simple explanation if it was twice is maybe the first is a toilet trip, I don't know, thanks for pointing it out.
Gerry didnt recall this most important thing until a week later then...doors being more open than they should be etc etc
No, not really Firstly it is just hearsay and uncorroborated too from a non independent witness that the window and shutter were open Secondly no forensics were found for opening the shutter and window apart from some bleared prints on the shutter which can be accounted for by the three people from the group who did stick their paws on the shutters (tampering with evidence pdq) tryng to see if they could open them from outside, the purpose of which still escapes me..... Thirdly no evidence any hypothetical burglar was interrupted...just supposition Further you have to make a presumption the window was not closed so could be just slid open by said hypothetical burglar...not even glove prints, just kate mccanns prints in the window...dont add up does it? All in all just speculation with no evidence let alone proof, sorry
1. Agreed its important not to assume outright that a sole witness is telling the truth, or is not telling the truth, I considered both those possibilities. 2. A few of the prints on this window were clear and identifiable to one person, the PJ claimed these prove who opened the window, that conclusion is wrong IMO. 3. No statement says anyone saw a burglar at that location that night and no witness has reported interrupting one, so yes it is supposition. IMO it makes more sense than other suppositions. 4. Yes the scenario depends on the upper button being out, if it is in then the whole scenario fails, unless I missed something.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 22, 2013, 04:13:56 AM
The first observation I would make is that burglars don't abduct children. Secondly, burglars usually case the premises they target and avoid any which are occupied at the McCanns was.
Wasn't the late Mrs Fenn's apartment 'cased' shortly before the McCanns arrived at 5A? (I am referring to the intruder Mrs Fenn stumbled across in her own apartment and tried to apprehend).
IIRC Mrs Fenn proposes that he entered through the front door (did he have a key perhaps?) and left apparently without taking anything. What was the purpose of his visit?
Does anyone know if the layout of the apartments in this block was the same or similar? If layouts are the same for apartments above and below, perhaps Mrs Fenn's intruder was trying to get an appreciation for the layout of 5A for a later date?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 22, 2013, 04:17:20 AM
He thinks no one is in apartment. Stage 3 of opening, which is reaching in with right hand from outside to pull strap to fully raise shutter, even gently, makes noise inside the room. He is still outside. The noise disturbs someone, who wisely exits into the lounge, and he scared by seeing/hearing that someone is home, rapidly leaves the area. So there you have the open window/shutter, no-one entering, and the increased door angle, all explained. Might be wrong but is there any other theory which explains all those 3 things logically? Not taking sides, just examining the discovered scene.
I don't get it, Pegasus. Who exited the bedroom and went into the lounge? Madeleine? And Abductor?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 22, 2013, 04:55:07 AM
Wasn't the late Mrs Fenn's apartment 'cased' shortly before the McCanns arrived at 5A? (I am referring to the intruder Mrs Fenn stumbled across in her own apartment and tried to apprehend).
IIRC Mrs Fenn proposes that he entered through the front door (did he have a key perhaps?) and left apparently without taking anything. What was the purpose of his visit?
Well the 'purpose' was not to steal a child away into the darkness .... that it for sure
This 'burglary gone wrong' hypothesis is nonsense, and I don't believe for a moment that Scotland Yard think any different
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 22, 2013, 03:15:43 PM
Wasn't the late Mrs Fenn's apartment 'cased' shortly before the McCanns arrived at 5A? (I am referring to the intruder Mrs Fenn stumbled across in her own apartment and tried to apprehend).
IIRC Mrs Fenn proposes that he entered through the front door (did he have a key perhaps?) and left apparently without taking anything. What was the purpose of his visit?
Does anyone know if the layout of the apartments in this block was the same or similar? If layouts are the same for apartments above and below, perhaps Mrs Fenn's intruder was trying to get an appreciation for the layout of 5A for a later date?
The burglar at 5G after entering was disturbed by the brave lady, he then quickly exited through a window, she tried to grab his ankle. IMO it is only supposition that he entered through the door. IMO it is more likely he entered 5G through the same window he exited 5G by. (Yes its an upstairs apartment but this is still possible). If you wish to find the layout of 5G, her niece's statement describes the layout but not clearly, also the UK dog video shows the interior of 4G (layout of 4G is likely to be the same as 5G) .
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 22, 2013, 11:42:37 PM
The burglar at 5G after entering was disturbed by the brave lady, he then quickly exited through a window, she tried to grab his ankle. IMO it is only supposition that he entered through the door. IMO it is more likely he entered 5G through the same window he exited 5G by. (Yes its an upstairs apartment but this is still possible). If you wish to find the layout of 5G, her niece's statement describes the layout but not clearly, also the UK dog video shows the interior of 4G (layout of 4G is likely to be the same as 5G) .
Yes but my question is what was he doing in 5G? If he didn't steal anything, what are we to make of his intentions in entering the apartment? Mrs Fenn says he was half way out the window by the time she realised he was there. He doesn't seem to have had anything in his hands.
Shortly after Mrs Fenn's death, her niece speaks of an inventory that had been made before her death of all her valuables. Presumably this was checked after she died. If anything had been discovered missing at that point, that might have been something of note. No mention is made of any missing item by the niece, however.
I am wondering if the intruder in Mrs Fenn's apartment could have been there in order to get a better appreciation of the layout and feel of 5A, if the apartments were in any way related, or to explore the feasiblity of various entry and escape points on the block.
There is nothing concrete to suggest that burglary was a motive for anyone entering either 5A or 5G and therefore on the current evidence I don't see why we should consider it is an option. Besides, Mrs Fenn's apartment was a far better source of valuables than 5A, as probably most of the permanently-occupied apartments would have been. Anyone doing their research would have recognised this.
If for the sake of argument the intruder of 5G was the same person as the (as yet unproven) intruder into 5A, or working with him, then why would he leave Mrs Fenn's valuables untouched (she owned expensive jewelry and other valuables) and prefer to focus on attempting to rob 5A, whose temporary residents would only be storing there whatever they needed for a short holiday?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 23, 2013, 12:35:18 AM
Yes but my question is what was he doing in 5G? If he didn't steal anything, what are we to make of his intentions in entering the apartment? Mrs Fenn says he was half way out the window by the time she realised he was there. He doesn't seem to have had anything in his hands.
Shortly after Mrs Fenn's death, her niece speaks of an inventory that had been made before her death of all her valuables. Presumably this was checked after she died. If anything had been discovered missing at that point, that might have been something of note. No mention is made of any missing item by the niece, however.
I am wondering if the intruder in Mrs Fenn's apartment could have been there in order to get a better appreciation of the layout and feel of 5A, if the apartments were in any way related, or to explore the feasiblity of various entry and escape points on the block.
There is nothing concrete to suggest that burglary was a motive for anyone entering either 5A or 5G and therefore on the current evidence I don't see why we should consider it is an option. Besides, Mrs Fenn's apartment was a far better source of valuables than 5A, as probably most of the permanently-occupied apartments would have been. Anyone doing their research would have recognised this.
If for the sake of argument the intruder of 5G was the same person as the (as yet unproven) intruder into 5A, or working with him, then why would he leave Mrs Fenn's valuables untouched (she owned expensive jewelry and other valuables) and prefer to focus on attempting to rob 5A, whose temporary residents would only be storing there whatever they needed for a short holiday?
The only rational answer to your question is that the child's disappearance had nothing whatsoever to do with any imagined attempted burglary ... there is simply nothing to support it
In my opinion there is NO rational explanation for the little girl disappearing in the circumstances claimed by her parents
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 23, 2013, 01:40:01 AM
Re the 5G intruder. Assuming that the lady's bedroom window has shutter down initially.
If thief enters through window .... the loudest loise is the raising of the shutter.
If thief enters through door then, before hunting for valuables, opens window and shutter (so police don't realise he has a key) .... the loudest noise is the raising of the shutter.
So key or no key, the noise which alerts the lady in the lounge, over the TV noise, is very probably the shutter noise?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 23, 2013, 07:06:39 AM
I am wondering if the intruder in Mrs Fenn's apartment could have been there in order to get a better appreciation of the layout and feel of 5A, if the apartments were in any way related, or to explore the feasiblity of various entry and escape points on the block.
But why? 8-)(--)
Surely if this was the case the kidnapping/abduction from 5A would have been pre planned wouldnt it, and how would anyone know that 5A would be holding 3 children and they would be left unattended.
I am sorry SH, i am missing your point.
Why risk going into an occupied apartment to just check the layout?
I just think IF 5G was broken into with the occupier inside it was a mistake, and they ran out the way they came pretty quickly....although i would have thought it was a funny apartment to break into being on the second floor. Wouldnt someone climbing in a window leave marks?
Also from Carole Tranmars statement her aunt lived at Apartment 20 Waterside Gardens BLOCK 5G.
Again if youread Mrs Fenns neice Carole Tranmer she mentions her aunt lived on the THIRD FLOOR, and in a statement to police she looked down and saw someone leave the FIRST FLOOR APARTMENT BELOW....the night the child was taken. 5A is on the GROUND FLOOR. Eeeeek...head ache lol, wheres my paracetamol lol. 8()-000(
Snips of Carole Tranmers statement:
CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange'
Mrs Fenns apartment was third floor according to her neice in her statement.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////// DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'
CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.
DC1485'Third floor.
CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.
DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'
CT'You turn left.
DC1485'Sure.
...................................
If you havent read this it is worth a read, as it is confusing.
It sounds as though her aunt was higher then just above 5A.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 23, 2013, 09:57:22 AM
Still labouring this nonsense I see. The window was opened to make it look like there has been less neglect i.e. the cunning abductor had to break in to snatch Maddie rather than walk in though the (admitted) unlocked door like a normal person.
The positions of the doors is all crap too - details added to give an air of authenticity to the accounts of people too drunk and careless to know what happened that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 23, 2013, 04:00:48 PM
Surely if this was the case the kidnapping/abduction from 5A would have been pre planned wouldnt it, and how would anyone know that 5A would be holding 3 children and they would be left unattended.
I am sorry SH, i am missing your point.
Why risk going into an occupied apartment to just check the layout?
I just think IF 5G was broken into with the occupier inside it was a mistake, and they ran out the way they came pretty quickly....although i would have thought it was a funny apartment to break into being on the second floor. Wouldnt someone climbing in a window leave marks?
Also from Carole Tranmars statement her aunt lived at Apartment 20 Waterside Gardens BLOCK 5G.
Again if youread Mrs Fenns neice Carole Tranmer she mentions her aunt lived on the THIRD FLOOR, and in a statement to police she looked down and saw someone leave the FIRST FLOOR APARTMENT BELOW....the night the child was taken. 5A is on the GROUND FLOOR. Eeeeek...head ache lol, wheres my paracetamol lol. 8()-000(
Snips of Carole Tranmers statement:
CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange'
Mrs Fenns apartment was third floor according to her neice in her statement.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////// DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'
CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.
DC1485'Third floor.
CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.
DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'
CT'You turn left.
DC1485'Sure.
...................................
If you havent read this it is worth a read, as it is confusing.
It sounds as though her aunt was higher then just above 5A.
Confused wasnt she..even though they visited regularly.....Mrs Fenn was first floor not third.....even if CT called the ground floor flat the first floor due to its being high on the hill, that would still only make Mrs Fenn second floor...oh well, goes to show how witness statements can be wrong though not a big deal here
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 23, 2013, 06:14:40 PM
The only rational answer to your question is that the child's disappearance had nothing whatsoever to do with any imagined attempted burglary ... there is simply nothing to support it
In my opinion there is NO rational explanation for the little girl disappearing in the circumstances claimed by her parents
There is no rational explanation for the little girl disappearing under any circumstances - other than the possibility of her wandering out of the apartment and falling down a hole.
Parents harming or concealing her - not rational. Burglar deciding to steal the girl instead of a wallet or a flat screen TV - not rational. Paedophilia - not rational.
Something happened to her, however irrational that may have been.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 23, 2013, 06:26:02 PM
There is no rational explanation for the little girl disappearing under any circumstances - other than the possibility of her wandering out of the apartment and falling down a hole.
Parents harming or concealing her - not rational. Burglar deciding to steal the girl instead of a wallet or a flat screen TV - not rational. Paedophilia - not rational.
Something happened to her, however irrational that may have been.
So, all possibilities on the table for you? i get your post now, I think, I didnt before which I replied to and deleted.......oh and btw to thnk the parents concealed a body is not irrational its happened dozens and dozens and dozens of times over above a burglar suddenly deciding to turn into a child abductor!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 23, 2013, 06:31:27 PM
Surely if this was the case the kidnapping/abduction from 5A would have been pre planned wouldnt it, and how would anyone know that 5A would be holding 3 children and they would be left unattended.
I am sorry SH, i am missing your point.
Why risk going into an occupied apartment to just check the layout?
I just think IF 5G was broken into with the occupier inside it was a mistake, and they ran out the way they came pretty quickly....although i would have thought it was a funny apartment to break into being on the second floor. Wouldnt someone climbing in a window leave marks?
Also from Carole Tranmars statement her aunt lived at Apartment 20 Waterside Gardens BLOCK 5G.
Again if youread Mrs Fenns neice Carole Tranmer she mentions her aunt lived on the THIRD FLOOR, and in a statement to police she looked down and saw someone leave the FIRST FLOOR APARTMENT BELOW....the night the child was taken. 5A is on the GROUND FLOOR. Eeeeek...head ache lol, wheres my paracetamol lol. 8()-000(
Snips of Carole Tranmers statement:
CT'We were all seated on the terrace, hummm'talking, and I was inclined to look below and this is when I saw someone leave the apartment of the first floor, closing the gate very gently as they were leaving, opening and closing the gate with much caution and in silence. It appeared to me very strange. They looked to one side and the other, shut the gate and walked very quickly downwards. It was at this point that I turned to my aunt and my husband and exclaimed 'That was really very strange'
Mrs Fenns apartment was third floor according to her neice in her statement.
///////////////////////////////////////////////////// DC1485'ground floor... ground floor, first floor'
CT'No, she is the third, I believe that she is on the third floor.
DC1485'Third floor.
CT'There is only one on top, therefore, she is on the third floor, at the end apartment. Once there, you take the elevator or the stairs. There is no other entrance or exit. You go directly to her door. She lives at the end. There is no other access.
DC1485'Therefore, when one leaves the elevator, to which side does one walk, left or right'
CT'You turn left.
DC1485'Sure.
...................................
If you havent read this it is worth a read, as it is confusing.
It sounds as though her aunt was higher then just above 5A.
Thanks for all that, columbo, though let's accept Red's correction that Mrs Fenn was actually above the McCann's apartment and not higher up as claimed.
I know it is pure speculation what I am saying; I am just curious as to why someone was in Mrs Fenn's apartment in the first place. What do you mean it was a mistake to break in when Mrs Fenn was there? Why would a burglar assume that the occupant was not there and make that 'mistake'?
Scotland Yard - and others - have emphasised the four-fold increase in burglaries in the vicinity in the few weeks preceding the McCanns' occupying of 5A, and I don't think it is in any way unreasonable to ask if one or more of these intrusions could be connected to Madelein's disappearance.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 23, 2013, 06:37:42 PM
..oh and btw to thnk the parents concealed a body is not irrational its happened dozens and dozens and dozens of times over above a burglar suddenly deciding to turn into a child abductor!
Parents concealing their child's body is statistically significant - but psychologically irrational.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 23, 2013, 06:42:48 PM
I really don't know what happened, Red. Sort of back to square one again since bundleman left the stage.
Just wanted to make the point to icabod that if we want to wait for a 'rational' explanation as to what has happened, we'll be waiting a long time.
What rational explanation could there be?
Theres always a rational explanation for child abductions or alledged ones....the only irrational one is taken by aliens.......next on the list is disturbed burglars IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 23, 2013, 06:44:38 PM
Parents concealing their child's body is statistically significant - but psychologically irrational.
pass......its a fact....what it means psychologically is neither here nor there surely....it happens.ergo not irrational as an option...seeing as im not on the same wavelength as you will leave it there.....except to say yes Carole Tranmer had no idea whatshe was talking about....another fact
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 23, 2013, 06:48:17 PM
pass......its a fact....what it means psychologically is neither here nor there surely....it happens.ergo not irrational as an option...seeing as im not on the same wavelength as you will leave it there.....
We are on the same wavelength, Red. I am not expressing myself clearly enough.
People's behavior is irrational, therefore we are not exclusively exploring 'rational' explanations, as icabod claims. Something completely crazy could have happened - and probably did.
BTW I agree with you on aliens and disturbed burglars.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 23, 2013, 06:59:18 PM
We are on the same wavelength, Red. I am not expressing myself clearly enough.
People's behavior is irrational, therefore we are not exclusively exploring 'rational' explanations, as icabod claims. Something completely crazy could have happened - and probably did.
BTW I agree with you on aliens and disturbed burglars.
Ah OK I get you now, thanks, Icab can speak for themselves if they come on later but what I got from their post was the whole scenario presented by the parents did not seem rational...I dont think they were saying an abduction under any circumstance is not rational..well,apart from a bloody burglar deciding to be a child abductor!!!
Then again so many more thngs are quite irrational in this case....things that have been touted by the mccanns and the media for years, totally irrational stuff!!!!! and I mean extremely irrational and out there....
Oh well poirot beckons then law and order uk then might be back 8**8:/:
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 23, 2013, 07:20:06 PM
You examine the crime scene and find there's no evidence of an abductor. No evidence of an abductor or anyone going through the window that was found opened by the mother. You bring the dogs in and they find cadaver scent in the apartment from which the little girl has gone missing. No scent is found in any of the other group apartments. So what do you first conclude? That the little girl could have died in the apartment? So at what time? The father saw her sleeping on his check so is she did die it was probably sometime between 9.10pm and 9.50pm. Just after she was reported missing by the mother, a man was seen carrying a child in a deep sleep, who looked just like the one that went missing, going away from the direction of the apartment and towards the beach. You would think that this could have well been the child with the abductor? Then you would ask, why would an abductor carry a dead or not child away from the apartment on foot and through the streets in full view of possible eye witnesses? Then you conclude that this indeed would not happen and then you start to reassess everything.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 24, 2013, 06:56:44 AM
Confused wasnt she..even though they visited regularly.....Mrs Fenn was first floor not third.....even if CT called the ground floor flat the first floor due to its being high on the hill, that would still only make Mrs Fenn second floor...oh well, goes to show how witness statements can be wrong though not a big deal here
I actually thought that myself but it doesnt make sense. She talks of looking OVER THE TOPS of houses and the wonderful sea view etc...hardly a sea view from the FIRST FLOOR surely not marvellous anyway. Now 3rd floor yes.
It would be good to find out exactly what floor number 20 is on.....lol. I did read somewhere Mrs Fenn had 2 apartments there.
But like you say you cant really take much notice of a lot of stuff witnesses say....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 24, 2013, 07:15:37 AM
You examine the crime scene and find there's no evidence of an abductor. No evidence of an abductor or anyone going through the window that was found opened by the mother. You bring the dogs in and they find cadaver scent in the apartment from which the little girl has gone missing. No scent is found in any of the other group apartments. So what do you first conclude? That the little girl could have died in the apartment? So at what time? The father saw her sleeping on his check so is she did die it was probably sometime between 9.10pm and 9.50pm. Just after she was reported missing by the mother, a man was seen carrying a child in a deep sleep, who looked just like the one that went missing, going away from the direction of the apartment and towards the beach. You would think that this could have well been the child with the abductor? Then you would ask, why would an abductor carry a dead or not child away from the apartment on foot and through the streets in full view of possible eye witnesses? Then you conclude that this indeed would not happen and then you start to reassess everything.
What are the probabilities of an abduction by stranger? The stats are more or less 85% of children who go missing do so by the hands of parents or relatives or friends.
How many children in that area of Portugal have been proven to be abducted by a stranger? Zero so far.
2 children unsolved, McCann and the German boy since 1994.
So what are the chances of a stranger abduction, pretty slim I would say.
BUT not impossible.
Oh the sentence in bold. This is purely hearsay as it is not corroborated by another witness. Anyone can say I saw my child sleeping.........
but did they?
I try and try to believe abduction, but its the children not waking which bothers me.
The child was known to have a sleeping problem, the night before she was left crying for over an hour and a half.
Why would she just sleep so easily the next night KNOWING her parents would probably leave her.
AGAIN.
No having grandchildren the same age, with sleeping problems, I dont think she would have just gone quietly no way not in my head anyway.....and if she did I am sure noise would have woken her if not someone picking her up out of her bed....
It just goes around in circles for me.
Although I have always felt if she was taken she knew who it was, woke up and was not scared and was told she was being taken to her parents, now that would work for me. Even letting her walk out of the apartment into a waiting car perhaps...or moved into a different apartment etc....
Then my brain thinks she went out on her own looking but the stair gate bothers me, i read a statement about the stair gate had been shut....
Oh poo, head ache.
Then the dogs...
and back full circle again.
I do have a feeling though there will be an arrest before Xmas....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 04:06:12 PM
I do have a feeling though there will be an arrest before Xmas....
What makes you say that, columbo? As far as we understand, Scotland Yard have still not finished trawling through the files and are still trying to clarify a lot of basic points.
Perhaps the Portuguese have something we don't know about?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on November 24, 2013, 04:13:22 PM
I'd be very surprised if there's ever any arrest.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 24, 2013, 04:15:01 PM
What makes you say that, columbo? As far as we understand, Scotland Yard have still not finished trawling through the files and are still trying to clarify a lot of basic points.
Perhaps the Portuguese have something we don't know about?
As far as we understand, Scotland Yard have still not finished trawling through the files and are still trying to clarify a lot of basic points.
So they say, however I think the case has been worked on more than they were letting on.
Anglo Portuguese Liason, Oporto squad etc etc.
I'm not suggesting arrests are imminent or even likely, but I think there has been more going on than we are told.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 04:56:36 PM
I doubt either PJ or SY will make any arrests/charges without solid enough evidence.....
Agreed, Red. It's not the kind of case where SY will be making arrests out of pressure to please the public or anyone else. Too much time has passed for anyone to want or expect a quick fix.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 24, 2013, 05:13:53 PM
There is one piece of logic which is common to and equally wrong in both types of theory.
All variations of the abduction theory say: "The person who did the abduction is the person who did the opening of shutter and window".
All variations of the staging theory say: "The person who did the staging is the person who did (or invented) the opening the shutter and window".
Both assumptions incorrect IMO. In either theory, I think this fits all the indications better: "A would be burglar opened the window and shutter from outside, was immediatly disturbed, and fled empty handed, before he even entered.".
Applied to the abduction theory, this means the abductor(s) did not open the window and shutter, they were already open. Applied to the staging theory, this means that the stager(s) did not open (nor invent opening) the window and shutter, they were already open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 05:19:05 PM
There is one piece of logic which is common to and equally wrong in both types of theory.
All variations of the abduction theory say: "The person who did the abduction is the person who did the opening of shutter and window".
All variations of the staging theory say: "The person who did the staging is the person who did (or invented) the opening the shutter and window".
Both assumptions incorrect IMO. In either theory, I think this fits all the indications better: "A would be burglar opened the window and shutter from outside, was immediatly disturbed, and fled empty handed, before he even entered.".
Applied to the abduction theory, this means the abductor(s) did not open the window and shutter, they were already open. Applied to the staging theory, this means that the stager(s) did not open (nor invent opening) the window and shutter, they were already open.
Or they were opened after the abduction by someone wishing to enhance the idea of the scene being one where abduction had taken place.
Or they were never open at any point....after all there is no proof whatsoever of their being open in the first place.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 24, 2013, 05:20:30 PM
There is one piece of logic which is common to and equally wrong in both types of theory.
All variations of the abduction theory say: "The person who did the abduction is the person who did the opening of shutter and window".
All variations of the staging theory say: "The person who did the staging is the person who did (or invented) the opening the shutter and window".
Both assumptions incorrect IMO. In either theory, I think this fits all the indications better: "A would be burglar opened the window and shutter from outside, was immediatly disturbed, and fled empty handed, before he even entered.".
Applied to the abduction theory, this means the abductor(s) did not open the window and shutter, they were already open. Applied to the staging theory, this means that the stager(s) did not open (nor invent opening) the window and shutter, they were already open.
I think it stretches credibility to suggest that during the 45 minutes between 9.15pm and 10pm, not only was a burglary attempt made in the McCanns apartment, but, in an entirely separate incident, an abductor also struck, and carried off a child never to be seen again
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 05:27:42 PM
I think it stretches credibility to suggest that during the 45 minutes between 9.15pm and 10pm, not only was a burglary attempt made in the McCanns apartment, but, in an entirely separate incident, an abductor also struck, and carried off a child never to be seen again
Truth is stranger than fiction, icabod.
If there was a four-fold increase in local burglaries around that time, it is not actually far fetched to suggest that 5A, being much more vulnerable than most of the other apartments on that block, could have been a target on the night of the 3rd.
What I think is difficult is the notion that at least two separate individuals, possibly even two teams of individuals, would have managed to lurk around the apartment that night and not disturb each other's missions.
Though perhaps they did...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 24, 2013, 05:44:06 PM
If there was a four-fold increase in local burglaries around that time, it is not actually far fetched to suggest that 5A, being much more vulnerable than most of the other apartments on that block, could have been a target on the night of the 3rd.
What I think is difficult is the notion that at least two separate individuals, possibly even two teams of individuals, would have managed to lurk around the apartment that night and not disturb each other's missions.
Though perhaps they did...
The suggestion that an individual stole a child in the circumstances described by the McCanns and their friends is incredible in itself
To further suggest that an attempted burglary also occured within that 45 minutes ( as a way of explaining the open window ) takes us beyond the incredible and into the realms of fantasy
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 24, 2013, 05:46:32 PM
The suggestion that an individual stole a child in the circumstances described by the McCanns and their friends is incredible in itself
To further suggest that an attempted burglary also occured within that 45 minutes ( as a way of explaining the open window ) takes us beyond the incredible and into the realms of fantasy
Yep, beyond belief.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 06:00:36 PM
The suggestion that an individual stole a child in the circumstances described by the McCanns and their friends is incredible in itself
To further suggest that an attempted burglary also occured within that 45 minutes ( as a way of explaining the open window ) takes us beyond the incredible and into the realms of fantasy
I am not suggesting that an attempted burglary took place. There is no indication of that as far as we know. But it is a possibility that some of the break-ins in the block are in some way connected with the Madeleine case. Scotland Yard certainly seem to be keen to get as much information about them as possible.
If your child went missing around the same time there were a large number of intruders known to have been operating in the street, wouldn't you expect police to look into their being some kind of connection? Seems pretty basic to me.
As for it being incredible that Madeleine could have disappeared in the circumstances described by the McCanns, we are back to semantics. Yes, it does sound incredible. However, any alternative account has got to be just as incredible, or perhaps even more so, by definition, as an incredible occurrence, namely the complete disappearance of a person, has taken place.
Do you think that if and when we finally get an explanation as to what happened that night and what has happened to Madeleine in the interim it will be something run of the mill? What simple, logical explanation could there be for a person vanishing off the face of the earth without trace?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 24, 2013, 06:08:27 PM
I am not suggesting that an attempted burglary took place. There is no indication of that as far as we know. But it is a possibility that some of the break-ins in the block are in some way connected with the Madeleine case. Scotland Yard certainly seem to be keen to get as much information about them as possible.
If your child went missing around the same time there were a large number of intruders known to have been operating in the street, wouldn't you expect police to look into their being some kind of connection? Seems pretty basic to me.
As for it being incredible that Madeleine could have disappeared in the circumstances described by the McCanns, we are back to semantics. Yes, it does sound incredible. However, any alternative account has got to be just as incredible, or perhaps even more so, by definition, as an incredible occurrence, namely the complete disappearance of a person, has taken place.
Do you think that if and when we finally get an explanation as to what happened that night and what has happened to Madeleine in the interim it will be something run of the mill? What simple, logical explanation could there be for a person vanishing off the face of the earth without trace?
Yes, I think it is sensible to consider the burglaries in the vicinity
What do we know about them ?
How many were there ? ... what dates did they occur on ? ... what items were stolen ? ... were any of the cases solved and the thief caught ?
If we are going to 'connect' these burglaries with the disappearance of a child then we need more than vague allusions to work with
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 06:14:06 PM
Yes, I think it is sensible to consider the burglaries in the vicinity
What do we know about them ?
How many were there ? ... what dates did they occur on ? ... what items were stolen ? ... were any of the cases solved and the thief caught ?
If we are going to 'connect' these burglaries with the disappearance of a child then we need more than vague allusions to work with
Good point, icabod. I think I read about these burglaries in the files, though they definitely featured in Crimewatch, so I'll watch it again.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 06:23:07 PM
And regarding the use of the word 'incredible' with regard to the various theories as to what has happened to Madeleine, I think the word 'innocent' would help us clarify matters a lot better.
There is only one 'innocent' explanation as to what could have happened, namely that Madeleine left the apartment of her own volition to look for her parents, and fell down a whole which was covered up by workers in PdL who didn't know she was in there.
Absolutely anything else involves something suspect, sinister, incredible, somewhere along the line - even if she died or dissapeared 'by accident'.
Ergo I think it is meaningless to compare the relative levels of incredulity one may have for this theory or that. Every theory is disturbing emotionally and unlikely statistically - but one of them must be correct.
Everything in a situation is relative. In this context, the McCanns' account is hardly strange at all.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 24, 2013, 06:34:06 PM
Here's an example of what a burglar took from a apartment in the adjacent block uphill from block 5. A videocam, some money, a couple of mobile phones. Everyone was out. That is the sort of burglar, probably afterwards they sell the camera and phones for a pittance in another town, the money goes maybe straightaway on drugs.
If this sort of burglar gets interrupted while he is still outside and opening the shutter by reaching in to operate the the strap, he will NOT enter, he will run away empty-handed. It is not stretching the imagination, it is what 99.9% of burglars would do, if there is someone in the room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 06:38:51 PM
Here's an example of what a burglar took from a apartment in the adjacent block uphill from block 5. A videocam, some money, a couple of mobile phones. Everyone was out. That is the sort of burglar, probably afterwards they sell the camera and phones for a pittance in another town, the money goes maybe straightaway on drugs.
If this sort of burglar gets interrupted while he is still outside and opening the shutter by reaching in to operate the the strap, he will NOT enter, he will run away empty-handed. It is not stretching the imagination, it is what 99.9% of burglars would do, if there is someone in the room.
Yep, this one's a petty criminal. Not a big operation. Plenty other opportunities in the vicinity so he'll readily flee the scene and take his chances another time.
Where did you get this info, Pegasus?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 24, 2013, 06:45:26 PM
Re burlaries from 1 35
I too would like to see the evidence...not that it would shed any light really....has someone got any stats of burglars turned child abductors? No didnt thnk so
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 24, 2013, 07:20:24 PM
Yep, this one's a petty criminal. Not a big operation. Plenty other opportunities in the vicinity so he'll readily flee the scene and take his chances another time.
Where did you get this info, Pegasus?
Sunday Express in May 2011 mentions a successful (uninterupted) burglary of another apartment in block 5. Not having complete faith in the accuracy of this type of UK paper ;) I checked it, and found it wasn't in block 5, it was in the next block uphill. Checking further I found very indirectly a list of stolen items. BTW the burglary victim at police station met two others reporting similar, burglary with no sign of forced entry. So people assume it is must be someone with set of keys. I think that is wrong. Psycologically tourists think apartment is secure if shutters are down. This is not always correct. These are all unforced entry without key, via shutter and window IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 24, 2013, 07:53:20 PM
Sunday Express in May 2011 mentions a successful (uninterupted) burglary of another apartment in block 5. Not having complete faith in the accuracy of this type of UK paper ;) I checked it, and found it wasn't in block 5, it was in the next block uphill. Checking further I found very indirectly a list of stolen items. BTW the burglary victim at police station met two others reporting similar, burglary with no sign of forced entry. So people assume it is must be someone with set of keys. I think that is wrong. Psycologically tourists think apartment is secure if shutters are down. This is not always correct. These are all unforced entry without key, via shutter and window IMO.
Thanks for all the research. I do find it interesting that there were no signs of forced entry in at least two of the burglaries, and also no sign of forced entry at 5A. Perhaps no connection - but definitely worth investigating.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 24, 2013, 08:11:07 PM
The rog of RO contains a lot of useful information about the window and shutter, and describes how the group, like us, questioned how it is possible for someone to open them from outside. The question of whether there is auto-locking is examined. Also the action needed to lock the window is examined. Also the possible method of opening closed shutter and closed window from outside, if the window is not locked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 24, 2013, 08:43:18 PM
Sunday Express in May 2011 mentions a successful (uninterupted) burglary of another apartment in block 5. Not having complete faith in the accuracy of this type of UK paper ;) I checked it, and found it wasn't in block 5, it was in the next block uphill. Checking further I found very indirectly a list of stolen items. BTW the burglary victim at police station met two others reporting similar, burglary with no sign of forced entry. So people assume it is must be someone with set of keys. I think that is wrong. Psycologically tourists think apartment is secure if shutters are down. This is not always correct. These are all unforced entry without key, via shutter and window IMO.
What source did you use when you did your checking ?
Please can you tell us where we can we find this information ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 24, 2013, 10:04:45 PM
What source did you use when you did your checking ?
Please can you tell us where we can we find this information ?
Re that successful and uninterupted burgary of an apartment in an adjacent block, see for example see Evening Standard 21 Aug 2007 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html P.S. there are other sources too for example one of the Sunday Express articles linked earlier this thread.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 24, 2013, 11:17:04 PM
I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread
Five experts ( and they really are experts ) analysed the three possible theories :
That Madeleine woke and wandered
That she was abducted
That her parents were involved in her disappearance
What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option ( involvement of the parents ) . It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of 'staging' a crime
The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories ( woke and wandered/ abduction ) because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios
I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters other than that they were opened as part of the staging of a crime
I know other explanations have been sought ... but that's the thing ... other explanations have to be 'imagined'
There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately screams abduction ... on the contrary, it is something that somehow has to be 'fitted in' with abduction theory
I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
Back to the first post of this thread, and a very good one it is.
About the first theory (woke and wandered). Is it possible that shutter noise causes the waking?
P.S. About the 2nd theory (abduction): If there was an abductor and he entered through that window, IMO the noise would have cause waking and exit to another room. So if abduction happened, it would be from a different room, not that room.
About the 3rd theory, in the Verdade film the child actor randomly wakes up for no reason, and relaxedly leaves the room. No reason for waking is provided. Instead could it not be noise of the shutter opening which causes this?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on November 25, 2013, 12:02:58 AM
The open window and shutter have been proven to have no relevance to any abduction. Neither were forced, neither had any discernible prints or marks on them consistent with having been opened from the outside. In addition, no evidence was found on the outer or inner sill or on the bedroom floor of any intruder having entered the room via the window. In conclusion it can only but be inferred that the whole window/shutter issue was an elaborate hoax.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 25, 2013, 12:15:07 AM
IMO no intruder of any type (abductor or burglar) ever set foot in the apartment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Meadow on November 25, 2013, 07:37:02 AM
Sorry, firstly if I have jumped in and this has in the past 15 pages been discussed. I have followed the case from almost the next day it happened. The twists the turns.
But what always seemed impossible of the jemmied\forced\broken shutter, SELDOM do you see mentioned the window? you know those things made of glass.
It was a chilly evening, does everyone assume the window was 'open'. OK, or what about locked?
Why was there no broken glass? Big risk forcing a shutter to find a locked window!!
Whilst all the speculation took a very slow way forward back on the MF in those early days, bit by bit things were teased out and apart.
So WHAT ABOUT THE WINDOW!!
Everyone who had the opportunity to read, ''Beyond the smears'' all became EXPLAINED and clear.
The Times on Sunday (eeemmm sound familiar) David Smith 16 December 2007, whilst still under judicial secrecy. Scroll to just over half way.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id96.html
''There was a latch lock on the sliding glass window, and the McCanns thought, but could not be sure, that they had locked it at the start of the holiday. They would later discover it was common for cleaners to open the shutters and windows to give the rooms an airing, so there was no way of knowing whether the window was locked that night or not and no forensic trace to indicate where and how an abductor had gone in and out. They could easily have used the front door, perhaps even had access to a key. ''
The one thing about this article, and please read and if it's some time since you last visited it, squeeze your buttocks and read it again.
The article is worthy of a thread of it's own, as it was in the beginning, so it is now.
But since there is no need of a break in, in the timeline whilst Mr McC stood outside chatting to JW the relevance of the shutter, or the potential abductor already in situ and hiding has become redundant. Since JT's sighting discounted as a parent with a child (oddly walking in the wrong direction from the sleep in creche)
The abductor so casually could have walked in and out of the patio door which was unlocked but would find difficulty in closing it, whilst holding a child & fiddling with all the layers of curtains, or merely walk out of the front main door, which has NEVER been established whether it was deadlock thus preventing exit (read JT's roggie - they deadlocked their main door to prevent their eldest getting out!)
Come down on the side of logic here, in through the sliding rear doors and out front on the car park side. So why no vehicle, or perhaps there was. And in time even the Smith's sighting will be discounted and have everyone walking the wrong way at the wrong time.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 25, 2013, 12:32:37 PM
Nobody went through the window or Madeleine woke up and left the apartment to go into the dark black night and closed the patio door after leaving. That didn't happen. Let's start in reverse. Many believe Madeleine was last seen by the Smith family. How many believe he was an abductor?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 25, 2013, 12:34:52 PM
What makes you say that, columbo? As far as we understand, Scotland Yard have still not finished trawling through the files and are still trying to clarify a lot of basic points.
Perhaps the Portuguese have something we don't know about?
Just a feeling something just odd about things going on now. Take no notice of me. Perhaps its the Efit that is bugging me. I cant believe the Yard had no knowledge that this wasnt an old sighting, and also all the leaking of tractor man (with NO real evidence), and then the new Portugese programme CMTV, talking about David Payne, and bathing children etc. I wonder really if there isnt something else going on......in the background.
We shall see.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 25, 2013, 12:48:05 PM
Just a feeling something just odd about things going on now. Take no notice of me. Perhaps its the Efit that is bugging me. I cant believe the Yard had no knowledge that this wasnt an old sighting, and also all the leaking of tractor man (with NO real evidence), and then the new Portugese programme CMTV, talking about David Payne, and bathing children etc. I wonder really if there isnt something else going on......in the background.
We shall see.
Yes but there's nothing new of substance her, aside from tractor man which doesn't seem like a serious option.
What kind of thing going on in the background?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on November 25, 2013, 01:22:22 PM
Reading through this thread put some thoughts into my head.
If Madeleine died in the apartment by the hands of an intruder either accidentally or otherwise, then why would the intruder remove the body? >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 25, 2013, 01:35:47 PM
I too would like to see the evidence...not that it would shed any light really....has someone got any stats of burglars turned child abductors? No didnt thnk so
Yes I saw this when it came on SKY.
What I didnt hear though was him say this, I think about doing the reconstruction he was using a telephoto lens and It was a friend of mine who walked by at the top of the road, there is no way she could have recognised this person.... 0.50.
And about the robberies.
checked out with management no reports of additional activity in the time surrounding charity collection or with robbery.
6 burglaries couldnt find anything to back that one up.
The bit about the sighting is interesting as he said no one would have recognised anyone at that time. I also noticed in Carol Tranmers statment that she said it got dark around 6.30 which I hadnt realised before, so by 9.15 it would be pitch black.
Sorry edited because i am an idiot lol.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 25, 2013, 01:55:42 PM
I too would like to see the evidence...not that it would shed any light really....has someone got any stats of burglars turned child abductors? No didnt thnk so
The idea is not of a burglar turned abductor. I have never heard of this either.
But with regard to the spate of robberies on Madeleine's block, Eamonn Holmes (no relation) mentions gangs of Roumanian and Albanian burglars active in the Algarve (don't know where he is getting his information from other than what he picked up from the time he says he has spent in the area) and speculates that such a gang may have been in operation in the complex. The idea is that the apartments were being cased to get a better idea of layout, in/out etc. for an abduction. Robbers in gangs could easily have connections with people involved in child trafficking and could have been working on an abduction in conjunction with one another. I personally don't see what is far fetched about this at all.
Paul Luckman doesn't give much credence to the claim that there were several burglaries in the complex around that time, saying the complex did not seem to know about it. Perhaps the complex wanted to keep quiet about it, or perhaps he got his facts wrong, or perhaps police did not investigate - probably all three. Scotland Yard however seem to have reason to believe there were burglaries however; they must be getting their information from somewhere. And these alleged burglaries were part of the recent appeal for information. SY must see something significant in getting more information on this.
Why wouldn't any light be shed? The burglars themselves are not going to come forward, but perhaps residents would have something to say. If it is true, as Eamonn Holmes says, that local police there don't take burglaries seriously and don't follow up on them, perhaps there is a lot of potential information here not recorded initially by police.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 25, 2013, 02:00:24 PM
The idea is not of a burglar turned abductor. I have never heard of this either.
But with regard to the spate of robberies on Madeleine's block, Eamonn Holmes (no relation) mentions gangs of Roumanian and Albanian burglars active in the Algarve (don't know where he is getting his information from other than what he picked up from the time he says he has spent in the area) and speculates that such a gang may have been in operation in the complex. The idea is that the apartments were being cased to get a better idea of layout, in/out etc. for an abduction. Robbers in gangs could easily have connections with people involved in child trafficking and could have been working on an abduction in conjunction with one another. I personally don't see what is far fetched about this at all.
Paul Luckman doesn't give much credence to the claim that there were several burglaries in the complex around that time, saying the complex did not seem to know about it. Perhaps the complex wanted to keep quiet about it, or perhaps he got his facts wrong, or perhaps police did not investigate - probably all three. Scotland Yard however seem to have reason to believe there were burglaries however; they must be getting their information from somewhere. And these alleged burglaries were part of the recent appeal for information. SY must see something significant in getting more information on this.
Why wouldn't any light be shed? The burglars themselves are not going to come forward, but perhaps residents would have something to say. If it is true, as Eamonn Holmes says, that local police there don't take burglaries seriously and don't follow up on them, perhaps there is a lot of potential information here not recorded initially by police.
I'll offer my reasons for thinking the suggestion that the alleged spate of burglaries were 'connected' to the missing child's disappearance is far-fetched
In the first place, had any abductor involved a gang of immigrant petty thieves in the crime, in any way, then the the chances of it being solved ( and quickly ) increased exponentially
Quite apart from the 'loose lips sink ships' risk, there was a well publicised reward of almost two million euros announced very early on ... what are the chances that these 'in the know' petty criminals would stay absolutely silent ? ( and given that not a single piece of hard evidence has emerged in the last six years, they would have to be assumed to have stayed silent )
Then there is the 'casing the apartments' angle
Why ?
Why would any abductor risk involving a number of others merely to have a better idea about the layout of a holiday apartment ?
We are not talking about employing an experienced cat-burglar to obtain the floor plan for some sprawling mansion ... coming back with a blue-print for every alarm, every private guard on duty, every trip-wire and electronic viewing device ... we are talking about a small single floor holiday flat
'Casing' the place beforehand ... especially to the extent of involving others to do it ... simply wouldn'd be neccessary
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 25, 2013, 04:10:25 PM
Does he mean that the real person with the child was a friend, or that his friend was an actor in the reconstruction?
Hi SH no i edited it, as I listened to it again and again, as the sound is poor quality.
I believe it was his friend who was used for the reconstruction, and the guy on the video used his telephoto lens, and there was no way anyone could recognise this guy in the dark at 9.15.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 25, 2013, 04:14:59 PM
The body would hold incriminating forensic evidence against the intruder and would have to be removed.
A pretty far - fetched scenario however. Yes totally agree with you SH.
Humm but why would it?
I am assuming as there were no stranger fingerprints found then the burgler was wearing gloves. IF he accidently harmed the child or she got in his way, why would there be forensics? Unless the unspeakable had happened...and even then there night not be forensic to point to someone and if there was the person would have to have their DNA on file.
No I cant see the point to taking the child away if the intent was to burglarise this apartment. Its a huge step to knicking a few passports and a cameral or too, to first degree murder of a minor.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 25, 2013, 04:34:58 PM
What I didnt hear though was him say this, I think about doing the reconstruction he was using a telephoto lens and It was a friend of mine who walked by at the top of the road, there is no way she could have recognised this person.... 0.50.
He said he was present at a reconstruction with Tanner with the walk by across the road....I believe he is referring to Murat and the van surveillance exercise that Tanner did where Murat was asked to walk across the road and see if Tanner recognised hm as the man she saw on the night.......he said he was at the time using a telescopic lens and didnt know it was actually a good friend of his..... he goes on to say he is pleased that one was knocked out...they were more than likely friends....he says there was no way she could recognise him as (my thoughts) he believes murat wasnt there that night...as he has always said.... He cant have been talking about any actor or the man SY have eliminated.... also why would he be snooping with a long lens on someones reconstruction/documentary..jmo
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 25, 2013, 05:29:29 PM
I am assuming as there were no stranger fingerprints found then the burgler was wearing gloves. IF he accidently harmed the child or she got in his way, why would there be forensics? Unless the unspeakable had happened...and even then there night not be forensic to point to someone and if there was the person would have to have their DNA on file.
No I cant see the point to taking the child away if the intent was to burglarise this apartment. Its a huge step to knicking a few passports and a cameral or too, to first degree murder of a minor.
Hypothesis - An abductor did kill her and quickly moved her out of the apartment. I don't believe Eddie would have found the cadaver scent. A dead body would have to be in the apartment for a certain amount of time IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 26, 2013, 01:09:33 AM
Imagine you need money for drugs, and you have done burglaries of tourist apartments before, to get that money.
I already gave a real example of the sort of useful proceeds you might get from a burglary of a tourist apartment here - a couple of phones, a video camera, some money.
What is the first thing you would do. Simple - decide if anyone is home or not.
OK you see foreign adults leaving an apartment, and as they do so, you see them turning out all lights except one low light in the lounge. Then, outside the only accessible window, you hear silence.
My question is - do you think - (A) Everyone is out? (B) Someone is still in?
Remember this is not MI5, this is a simple burglar. Does he think (A)? Or (B)?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 26, 2013, 01:14:41 AM
Imagine you need money for drugs, and you have done burglaries of tourist apartments before, to get that money.
I already gave a real example of the sort of useful proceeds you might get from a burglary of a tourist apartment here - a couple of phones, a video camera, some money.
What is the first thing you would do. Simple - decide if anyone is home or not.
OK you see foreign adults leaving an apartment, and as they do so, you see them turning out all lights except one low light in the lounge. Then, outside the only window accessible without climbing, you hear silence.
My question is - do you think - (A) Everyone is out? (B) Someone is still in?
Remember this is not MI5, this is a simple burglar. Does he think (A)? Or (B)?
You might imagine that at such a resort, children were likely to be present.
You would also have been likely to see children, or suggestions that children were there, if you had been viewing the apartment at any time in addition to the short time prior to when the adults left.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 26, 2013, 01:42:31 AM
I'll offer my reasons for thinking the suggestion that the alleged spate of burglaries were 'connected' to the missing child's disappearance is far-fetched
In the first place, had any abductor involved a gang of immigrant petty thieves in the crime, in any way, then the the chances of it being solved ( and quickly ) increased exponentially
Quite apart from the 'loose lips sink ships' risk, there was a well publicised reward of almost two million euros announced very early on ... what are the chances that these 'in the know' petty criminals would stay absolutely silent ? ( and given that not a single piece of hard evidence has emerged in the last six years, they would have to be assumed to have stayed silent )
Then there is the 'casing the apartments' angle
Why ?
Why would any abductor risk involving a number of others merely to have a better idea about the layout of a holiday apartment ?
We are not talking about employing an experienced cat-burglar to obtain the floor plan for some sprawling mansion ... coming back with a blue-print for every alarm, every private guard on duty, every trip-wire and electronic viewing device ... we are talking about a small single floor holiday flat
'Casing' the place beforehand ... especially to the extent of involving others to do it ... simply wouldn'd be neccessary
I don't think it would be a case of a lone abductor invoking the services of burglars for the sake of casing the place. Obviously that would pose significant detection risks and would be of little assistance or need.
I am imagining a single gang of criminals, or criminal organisation of some kind, with different members of the organisation playing different roles, like a production line. The criminals are either individuals who work with each other and do favours when it suits them, or they are a more formal unit. Or possible two 'formal' units (such as a gang of gypsies, and a paedophile ring, for example). Please excuse political incorrectness; just an example.
A paedophile ring - not that I know much of such a thing I admit; I am only imagining this - must have different people doing different jobs. There must be people looking at children; people abducting the children; people doing the transporting; people paying them; the paedophiles themselves - who may be involved in procurement etc or perhaps not. It is a network of many people sometimes extending across different national boundaries.
Such a scenario puts paid to the concern of secrecy. Everyone is criminally involved somehow, therefore everyone keeps quiet. We all understand that there are people in the high echelons in society who are involved in these things and their identity can sometimes remain guarded for decades. If they are exposed it is usually through some uncontrollable event extraneous to the organisation, not because anyone breaks ranks. These peoples' reputations are so important that millions are not enough of an incentive.
Quite what the purpose of the intruders into the apartments was for I don't know, and I can't fully answer the question of why specifically knowing about the other apartments would help them with 5A. Perhaps they were looking at the entry and exit points on the block. 5A wasn't a mansion, but a predator - or even simple burglar - would still need to work out entry and exit points, and not only for the apartment itself but in the block as a whole. I understand that the alley way at the back of the apartments contained some dead ends, for example. An intruder would need more than one escape route in case disturbed.
Perhaps the 'burglars were looking for other children sleeping in their beds. Or perhaps they were looking for hiding places in the building itself in case their escape was blocked or delayed. (There was a strange man reported lurking in the stairwell, for example). Until we know more about the break ins themselves it is hard to say what the reason would be, but the point is that the 'burglars' could well have had some 'higher' purpose.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 26, 2013, 01:44:15 AM
If I was a simple burglar I would assume that turning all lights out but one, means no-one is left at home. Maybe the would-be burglar on 3rd May had a Tardis and read the news and PJ files in advance? If not then where did he get any precedent for assuming someone is still home?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 26, 2013, 01:44:53 AM
You might imagine that at such a resort, children were likely to be present.
You would also have been likely to see children, or suggestions that children were there, if you had been viewing the apartment at any time in addition to the short time prior to when the adults left.
Agreed and there was a lot of comings and goings that night.
8.35 McCann's leave 8.40 Tanner leaves 8.45 Oldfield's leave 8.50 Russell leaves 8.55 Payne's leave 8.58 Matt checks window 9.02 Gerry check 9.10 Tanner check - Gerry outside talking to Jez 9.25 Matt/Russell check 9.35 Tanner check on Russell 9.45 Russell back at tapas 9.50 Kate check
The window of opportunity is not great for an abduction especially if you've been watching all these comings and goings. I think it would put you off by even attempting it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 26, 2013, 02:07:31 AM
I don't think it would be a case of a lone abductor invoking the services of burglars for the sake of casing the place. Obviously that would pose significant detection risks and would be of little assistance or need.
I am imagining a single gang of criminals, or criminal organisation of some kind, with different members of the organisation playing different roles, like a production line. The criminals are either individuals who work with each other and do favours when it suits them, or they are a more formal unit. Or possible two 'formal' units (such as a gang of gypsies, and a paedophile ring, for example). Please excuse political incorrectness; just an example.
A paedophile ring - not that I know much of such a thing I admit; I am only imagining this - must have different people doing different jobs. There must be people looking at children; people abducting the children; people doing the transporting; people paying them; the paedophiles themselves - who may be involved in procurement etc or perhaps not. It is a network of many people sometimes extending across different national boundaries.
Such a scenario puts paid to the concern of secrecy. Everyone is criminally involved somehow, therefore everyone keeps quiet. We all understand that there are people in the high echelons in society who are involved in these things and their identity can sometimes remain guarded for decades. If they are exposed it is usually through some uncontrollable event extraneous to the organisation, not because anyone breaks ranks. These peoples' reputations are so important that millions are not enough of an incentive.
Quite what the purpose of the intruders into the apartments was for I don't know, and I can't fully answer the question of why specifically knowing about the other apartments would help them with 5A. Perhaps they were looking at the entry and exit points on the block. 5A wasn't a mansion, but a predator - or even simple burglar - would still need to work out entry and exit points, and not only for the apartment itself but in the block as a whole. I understand that the alley way at the back of the apartments contained some dead ends, for example. An intruder would need more than one escape route in case disturbed.
Perhaps the 'burglars were looking for other children sleeping in their beds. Or perhaps they were looking for hiding places in the building itself in case their escape was blocked or delayed. (There was a strange man reported lurking in the stairwell, for example). Until we know more about the break ins themselves it is hard to say what the reason would be, but the point is that the 'burglars' could well have had some 'higher' purpose.
I could hardly bring myself to finish reading your post Sherlock, so horrific was the picture you painted
I know you are right when you point out that such people do exist in the world, much as we might wish not to even think of it ... and the scenario you pen might explain a most dreadful fate for the missing little girl
In truth, I think I am probably guilty of looking for the 'least' horrific scenario
The possibility that the child wondered out of the apartment looking for mum and dad and befell an unpredictable but fatal accident which her parents, in blind panic and concern for their other children, rashly ( and whilst, understandably, not of sound mind ) decided to 'cover up' , seems so much 'bearable' to imagine than the horror stories that are the alternatives
That's not fair on the parents of course, and I understand that ... but, unless there is hard evidence to support it, I would rather not think that the little girl met an unspeakable end to her short life at the hands of the kinds of monsters you describe
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 26, 2013, 02:35:56 AM
Has anyone watched the "Verdade" video? Gonzalo Amaral and Moita Flores are filmed examining the real actual window and shutter, and they claim, based on fingerprint evidence, conclusively that it was KM who opened the window. What do you think about this? Carefully checking all the sources in that video, are GA and MF correct?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 26, 2013, 02:47:50 AM
Yes I have come to that same conclusion. I believe a lie was said on the position of the door (MO door position testimony was very important as this was originally supposed to be Kate's check). I believe I know the time Madeleine was moved from the apartment (before the front key was used - another discrepancy) and was later moved a second time and was seen by the Smith family. What I don't know is if anyone else was involved in hiding Madeleine but I'm not sure on that as Smithman was taking a big risk walking through the streets with her. So I think not at the moment but after where he had taken her to then Yes it's possible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: a.baker on November 26, 2013, 03:08:39 AM
Hi.I normally only read and there are some great posts on here.Very intelligent minds indeed! I have been reading with interest regarding the alleged open window and shutters and wondered if anybody had considered that Kate herself may have passed Madeleine out of the apartment to an 'accomplice' who may have agreed to help the parents by hiding the body (assuming Madeleine did indeed die after an accident)? But through the front door and not the open window,which I believe was staged by Kate to advance the abduction scenario. May explain why Kate had cadaver scent on her clothes? Also,when Kate found Madeleine 'missing',instead of shouting across to the tapas group,she went over to the tapas bar. Was ahe stalling for time in order for the 'accomplice' to get away? Same reason for not alerting the police until 10.40pm? Was 'smithman' the 'accomplice' and this is why the McCanns didnt really want the e-fits of him in the public domain? Apologies if this scenario is rubbish but my brain will annoying tick away in the nightime hours when I cannot sleep!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 26, 2013, 01:22:05 PM
Hi, I believe Smithman was one of the Tapas 9 and that's why it was a very risky strategy. Eddie didn't alert anywhere at the front of the apartment only the back so I believe she left that way. The front door was hidden compared to that open window. An abductor would have used the front door. He/She wouldn't waste time with opening the window, squeezing past cots and beds in the dark or take the unnecessary risk of raising shutters which give out noise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 26, 2013, 06:13:57 PM
I could hardly bring myself to finish reading your post Sherlock, so horrific was the picture you painted
I know you are right when you point out that such people do exist in the world, much as we might wish not to even think of it ... and the scenario you pen might explain a most dreadful fate for the missing little girl
In truth, I think I am probably guilty of looking for the 'least' horrific scenario
The possibility that the child wondered out of the apartment looking for mum and dad and befell an unpredictable but fatal accident which her parents, in blind panic and concern for their other children, rashly ( and whilst, understandably, not of sound mind ) decided to 'cover up' , seems so much 'bearable' to imagine than the horror stories that are the alternatives
That's not fair on the parents of course, and I understand that ... but, unless there is hard evidence to support it, I would rather not think that the little girl met an unspeakable end to her short life at the hands of the kinds of monsters you describe
I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.
I would love to believe that paedophile gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.
The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.
I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?
Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 26, 2013, 06:42:52 PM
It's not about blaming anyone. It's about finding out what happened from the evidence in the files and the discrepancies of the statements. You can't let emotion cloud your judgement. The timing of the Smithman sighting is significant and his unusual behaviour. The comings and goings from the tapas bar to the apartments were constant that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 26, 2013, 08:50:14 PM
If you are a child asleep and suddenly the noise of the shutter in your room awakens you and you see a silhoutte reaching in and operating the shutter strap, what would you do? Run into lounge and hide behind sofa? Run to look for adults in their room? Run and hide in cupboard in adults bedroom? Run to lounge sliding door and onto balcony? Run out to street?
These possibilities seem to be not considered in sufficient depth, because all the theories, whether of abduction, or of cover-up, all have in common the remarkable insistence that the simple and IMO obvious equation "shutter opening = the noise which starts it all" is impossible?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on November 26, 2013, 09:06:03 PM
I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.
I would love to believe that paedophile gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.
The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.
I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?
Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.
People who question Madeleine's age as of interest to paedophiles should note the lead singer of the Lostprophets has just pleaded guilty to attempting to rape an eleven month old baby.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Cariad on November 26, 2013, 09:07:30 PM
I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.
I would love to believe that paedophile gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.
The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.
I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?
Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.
I find it much more bearable to imagine parents disposing of their already deceased child than that child suffering possibly years of abuse at the hands of monsters.
I can understand how such a thing could happen too. Madeleine was not an only child. There were two more babies to consider. If something terrible had happened to Madeleine and her parents felt that the twins could end up in care because of it, well, wouldn't it be human nature to protect the children you still have?
I don't see that as abhorrent behaviour at all.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 27, 2013, 03:06:57 AM
I find it much more bearable to imagine parents disposing of their already deceased child than that child suffering possibly years of abuse at the hands of monsters.
I can understand how such a thing could happen too. Madeleine was not an only child. There were two more babies to consider. If something terrible had happened to Madeleine and her parents felt that the twins could end up in care because of it, well, wouldn't it be human nature to protect the children you still have?
I don't see that as abhorrent behaviour at all.
I can see why it seems more bearable on the face of it, Cariad. No long-term suffering for Madeleine. Her suffering is something that we all find difficult and want to distance ourselves from. Sometimes I have to pinch myself and remember that we are all talking about a little girl here and not just looking at case notes.
But is disposal - and possibly death - at the hands of her parents really better than the alternatives, either in moral or behavioural terms, or in terms of the suffering Madeleine had to go through?
Parents disposing of their 'already deceased' child at the drop of a hat to protect their professional reputations? Dumping their own flesh and blood down a well near a holiday resort? No proper burial? Spending the next seven years further dishonouring their child (as if the above wasn't bad enough) by protesting to the world their innocence, mobilising governments and raising vast amounts of money to try to prove it?
I will focus on the matter of burial - though that is not the only problem here - because of its significance for human nature. Giving a loved-one a proper burial is a fundamental human need and has been part of human civilisation since the earliest times. Even some higher animals such as elephants practice burial and observe collective mourning rituals of sorts.
Not to be concerned about giving one's own beloved child a burial goes so far against the grain of human nature that only the most disturbed of the disturbed would want to act that way. The idea that a person's professional reputation would over-ride something as powerful and fundamental as this is just not credible.
It is indeed distressing to consider the matter of paedophiles, but it would be a dark universe inhabited by parents who would do what the McCanns are alleged to have done in certain quarters. Harming or showing contempt for one's own flesh and blood shows a particular perversity of character that not even the paedophile demonstrates - unless he is harming his own child.
If it was 'human nature', as you say, to protect the twins, then this caring, protective human nature was in full force at the very same time that the McCanns were engaging in acts of mindboggling callousness and disregard as far as Madeleine was concerned. In fact it was care and concern for the twins that was the actual driving force behind the dumping of Madeleine, on that logic.
As for the twins ending up in care if the McCanns' negligence had been discovered, wouldn't that have been in the interest of the twins? Wouldn't that have been the right thing? Would we want to leave twins in the care of parents who lost a child through negligence and then callously dumped her?
There is absolutely no intelligibility to such actions whatsoever, either by logic or emotion, and this is why I find the contention that the McCanns are guilty of something sinister so very hard to swallow.
But of course, I could be wrong.....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 27, 2013, 03:27:56 AM
Thanks SH, I do enjoy reading your sage words in regard to this case and also the level of respect you show to your fellow members of this forum of either persuasion !
Thank you so much for the compliment, Pat; I very much appreciate it. I enjoy your posts greatly too and look forward to many more lively and productive discussions!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Meadow on November 27, 2013, 04:56:03 AM
Balances, of human behaviour who really knows, just when you feel in tune with human rituals as an explanation, something comes along to knock you off course:
Amanda Hutton - starved four year old and left mummified corpse in bedroom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24145299
Let us recall the psychology of grief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
The Kubler-Ross model fits in well with how we cope with grief and the processes.
Now explain to me laughing and handful of balloons within days whilst coming out of church? Leaving the twins whilst seeking help* or even putting them back in the creche the next day?
* I mean it was like being at the bottom of the garden - so why run back? leaving the twins in the same risk situation? These are the behaviours that are illogical.
No one knows. But the McCanns grief process is something books could be written about, since they appear more grief stricken now, than they did six+ years ago.
So I do agree that as humans we need closure in the event of death it is rituals that allow us to cope. Far better to think Madeleine was abducted to order and living with a family who chose her, since they couldn't have a child of their own. Do you really think such loving people we WANT to do that?
And back to the OP - why pass a child out of window which would draw attention, when you could walk out of a door just a few feet away that was in a recess. Why run through the streets of PDL - when the apartment was basically in the car park!
Only one question remains, how did the prospective intruder know that the window (glass stuff) would be unlocked and that no one was sleeping under the window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 27, 2013, 06:11:25 AM
Balances, of human behaviour who really knows, just when you feel in tune with human rituals as an explanation, something comes along to knock you off course:
Amanda Hutton - starved four year old and left mummified corpse in bedroom: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24145299
Let us recall the psychology of grief: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model
The Kubler-Ross model fits in well with how we cope with grief and the processes.
Now explain to me laughing and handful of balloons within days whilst coming out of church? Leaving the twins whilst seeking help* or even putting them back in the creche the next day?
* I mean it was like being at the bottom of the garden - so why run back? leaving the twins in the same risk situation? These are the behaviours that are illogical.
No one knows. But the McCanns grief process is something books could be written about, since they appear more grief stricken now, than they did six+ years ago.
So I do agree that as humans we need closure in the event of death it is rituals that allow us to cope. Far better to think Madeleine was abducted to order and living with a family who chose her, since they couldn't have a child of their own. Do you really think such loving people we WANT to do that?
And back to the OP - why pass a child out of window which would draw attention, when you could walk out of a door just a few feet away that was in a recess. Why run through the streets of PDL - when the apartment was basically in the car park!
Only one question remains, how did the prospective intruder know that the window (glass stuff) would be unlocked and that no one was sleeping under the window?
Hello, Meadow!
Amanda Hutton - terrible case. Clearly an exceptionally sick woman. There is a great deal of evidence of her sickness in her home, however. In the McCann case we are in dire need of hard evidence of anything.
Regarding the five stages of grief, the initial stage - denial - can last a long time. Denial can last for years. I went to a public talk given by holocaust survivors recently at a museum here in New York. The survivors were being interviewed on video as part of the compilation of material for an exhibition. Two of the survivors described their experiences as 'not so bad', despite most of the other people who went through the same thing, some of whom were there at the museum, telling a very different story. Many of these people never talked about their experiences and some of them, in order to protect themselves emotionally from the enormity of what happened, never beyond stage 1.
The balloon episode occurred extremely early on and I would have thought that the McCanns would have been very shell-shocked at that point; they would be in stage one here also.
And it is possible that they are indeed more grief-stricken now than they were before, having gone through all the things they have endured over the past few years. The stress and strain following a traumatic event (secondary trauma) can have an even greater a negative impact than the original trauma. What they have endured over the past few years - whether they are to blame for part of it or not - must have taken its toll on them. You can see it on their faces.
Agreed we need 'closure', and that is another source of strain for them. The grieving process has been stunted by the fact that they have no body or even an explanation as to what has happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on November 27, 2013, 06:38:17 AM
The stages of grief do not necessarily follow one after another. Each grief process is individual and people may skip stages, go through them in a different order, and even return to a previous supposedly completed phase.
Grief is not as simple as some people would have us believe.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 27, 2013, 06:49:06 AM
The stages of grief do not necessarily follow one after another. Each grief process is individual and people may skip stages, go through them in a different order, and even return to a previous supposedly completed phase.
Grief is not as simple as some people would have us believe.
And there are also other theories on grief. This is only one model.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 28, 2013, 01:05:42 AM
Many of these people never talked about their experiences and some of them, in order to protect themselves emotionally from the enormity of what happened, never beyond stage 1.
Those survivors came back from the camps almost 70 years ago. They kept silent for years because they knew nobody could understand what they had been through.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 28, 2013, 01:24:24 AM
I find it much more bearable to imagine parents disposing of their already deceased child than that child suffering possibly years of abuse at the hands of monsters.
I can understand how such a thing could happen too. Madeleine was not an only child. There were two more babies to consider. If something terrible had happened to Madeleine and her parents felt that the twins could end up in care because of it, well, wouldn't it be human nature to protect the children you still have?
I don't see that as abhorrent behaviour at all.
I do agree with this and find it much more plausible than the ridiculous silent abduction from bed. What if Madeleine went out and met her fate close by and was found by her father ? Wouldn't that logically put in high risk the rest of the family ? Wouldn't be better for the parents, and probably the twins, to stay together ? And wouldn't that justify bypassing funeral rituals ? Instead of doing those rituals for the child God killed to punish him, David created Salomon.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 28, 2013, 01:37:35 AM
Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.
Accusing the McCanns is nobody's job, it's a matter for Justice. When we imagine that they did this or that, it is not an accusation, just an hypothesis. Do you think formulating hypotheses is abusive ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 28, 2013, 02:02:10 AM
Accusing the McCanns is nobody's job, it's a matter for Justice. When we imagine that they did this or that, it is not an accusation, just an hypothesis. Do you think formulating hypotheses is abusive ?
I agree, Anne, just a hypothesis.
But the hypotheses we formulate are indicative of our mindset and Weltanschauung.
To imagine that a person is going to throw their first born away and suggest that as a serious hypothesis, when there is no evidence for it and other viable options on the table, has been something that has always bothered me.
Wonderful to have you back, Anne, by the way.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on November 28, 2013, 06:24:44 AM
Accusing the McCanns is nobody's job, it's a matter for Justice. When we imagine that they did this or that, it is not an accusation, just an hypothesis. Do you think formulating hypotheses is abusive ?
It certainly can be!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 28, 2013, 10:34:02 AM
I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.
I would love to believe that paedophile gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.
The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.
I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?
Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.
Sadly I have become immune now to the horror of parents killing their children, it happens far too often.
Children being killed for all kind of reasons, even to get a bigger house........
A lot of mums sadly killing their children because of post natal depression one of the worse cases I think was in Australia.
Mums killing their children in cold blood, so they didnt have to share them with their new partners....
Its ALL the time now.....
I feel awful even saying it but I have turned cynical about every case.
I would NEVER have questioned the fact years ago, no way. I would have assumed the child was taken away and just would not believe a parent could harm the child or dispose of the body...but sadly over the years now every time I IMMEDIATELY jump to the parents FIRST. How sad am I? Or how sad is SOCIETY.....?
The statistics are STACKED against the parents or friends. Its horrible isnt it....but it seems to be getting worse.
When a childs life is taken by a parent say the mother, how do we know that the husband would not want to protect their partner and do anything possible to make sure that their loved one is protected, even doing something so UNSPEAKABLE, as removing their beloved child and disposing of the body....
People do these things it HAPPENS.
ITS not necessarily what I believe in to be honest, I am still not sure in my mind the child was harmed by her parents not at all, but sadly I think ANYONE is capable of self preservation its an instinc inherrant in all human beings.
I dont for one minute think the parents would have covered up an accidental death no way, children have accidents ALL THE TIME, and sadly they die because of them.
No I dont see that the parents would do that no way...
To be honest I would rather a child died of an accident then have been taken by a pedophile now that thought doesnt bear thinking about.
Non of the scenarios bode well for the child do they.
Its just so sad for Maddy no matter what we think. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 28, 2013, 11:17:00 AM
I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread
Five experts ( and they really are experts ) analysed the three possible theories :
That Madeleine woke and wandered
That she was abducted
That her parents were involved in her disappearance
What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option ( involvement of the parents ) . It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of 'staging' a crime
The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories ( woke and wandered/ abduction ) because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios
I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters other than that they were opened as part of the staging of a crime
I know other explanations have been sought ... but that's the thing ... other explanations have to be 'imagined'
There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately screams abduction ... on the contrary, it is something that somehow has to be 'fitted in' with abduction theory
I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
Knowing the mentioned window and having tried recently to make several attempts to use it as an escape or entry with several people, in a similar window, it was impossible to be achieved without leaving traits and without the help of another person. Not to mention that opening it would have alerted the whole neighborhood because it would have rattled too loudly in a quite night. Carrying a bundle over such window was impossible without leaving fibers and traits of some other sort.
In my opinion you are right to agree with the experts.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 28, 2013, 11:32:24 AM
Knowing the mentioned window and having tried recently to make several attempts to use it as an escape or entry with several people, in a similar window, it was impossible to be achieved without leaving traits and without the help of another person. Not to mention that opening it would have alerted the whole neighborhood because it would have rattled too loudly in a quite night. Carrying a bundle over such window was impossible without leaving fibers and traits of some other sort.
In my opinion you are right to agree with the experts.
Totally agree, thats why they are EXPERTS.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 28, 2013, 12:53:03 PM
That is ridiculous. Everyone is free to formulate hypothesis.
Have you ever heard about freedom of thought and expression?!
You have the right to think what you want. Once you share it with a third party, it may be abuse and actionable in law.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 28, 2013, 01:06:01 PM
Grief is an individual process, I give you that.
But its stages are well known. What changes is the time periods for each of them. Commonly it is used the 5 stages model:
Denial Rageuilt Negotiation Depression Acceptance
In my opinion the McCann are not typical subjects and are not following any linear grief process. Their involvement in the process may have stuck them in the first 2 stages with some small attempts in the third. But they are mainly in denial and rage, which will inevitably lead one or both to depression, once and again... But they are floating still. They don't know how to negotiate and that makes their guilt feelings even more powerful.
Depression implies guilty feelings, and these two are not ready to deal with it. So far they have been deflating it and when it comes back it will be massive.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 28, 2013, 01:09:31 PM
That is ridiculous. Everyone is free to formulate hypothesis.
Have you ever heard about freedom of thought and expression?!
Some want to destroy it...even BAN books, something our grandfathers fought against,and so many paying with their lives for the freedom, despicable at best.......
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on November 28, 2013, 01:12:39 PM
Some want to destroy it...even BAN books, something our grandfathers fought against,and so many paying with their lives for the freedom, despicable at best.......
Do you agree with the current bans on other books because of libel or public safety, or should they be freely available?
I suspect that your feelings about this only apply to books that you find acceptable but would not apply to other books that do conflict with your beliefs.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on November 28, 2013, 01:15:30 PM
But its stages are well known. What changes is the time periods for each of them. Commonly it is used the 5 stages model:
Denial Rageuilt Negotiation Depression Acceptance
In my opinion the McCann are not typical subjects and are not following any linear grief process. Their involvement in the process may have stuck them in the first 2 stages with some small attempts in the third. But they are mainly in denial and rage, which will inevitably lead one or both to depression, once and again... But they are floating still. They don't know how to negotiate and that makes their guilt feelings even more powerful.
Depression implies guilty feelings, and these two are not ready to deal with it. So far they have been deflating it and when it comes back it will be massive.
Depression does not imply guilty feelings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 28, 2013, 01:20:14 PM
In my country Freedom of Expression (not just thought) is a Consecrated Right in our Constitution, the basis of our Legal System and the basis of our culture, article 37º (almost like America's First Amendment)
and so it should be! Too many peoples were silenced and gagged in the evil era of the thirties and their legacy continuing into the late 60s in many quarters....sadly to this day still in some places....a legacy that should be trampled on very heavily indeed! And never allowed to rear its uglyhead again......
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 28, 2013, 01:24:25 PM
There are many types of depression, I was addressing the one originated by external factors. If reactive, the depression is always accompanied or declenched by guilty feelings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on November 28, 2013, 01:27:19 PM
Has anyone watched the "Verdade" video? Gonzalo Amaral and Moita Flores are filmed examining the real actual window and shutter, and they claim, based on fingerprint evidence, conclusively that it was KM who opened the window. What do you think about this? Carefully checking all the sources in that video, are GA and MF correct?
I have nothing in the forensic report to suggest that the fingerprints indicated an opening position. There is a thread about that on here somewhere.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 28, 2013, 04:13:52 PM
Sadly I have become immune now to the horror of parents killing their children, it happens far too often.
Children being killed for all kind of reasons, even to get a bigger house........
A lot of mums sadly killing their children because of post natal depression one of the worse cases I think was in Australia.
Mums killing their children in cold blood, so they didnt have to share them with their new partners....
Its ALL the time now.....
I feel awful even saying it but I have turned cynical about every case.
I would NEVER have questioned the fact years ago, no way. I would have assumed the child was taken away and just would not believe a parent could harm the child or dispose of the body...but sadly over the years now every time I IMMEDIATELY jump to the parents FIRST. How sad am I? Or how sad is SOCIETY.....?
The statistics are STACKED against the parents or friends. Its horrible isnt it....but it seems to be getting worse.
When a childs life is taken by a parent say the mother, how do we know that the husband would not want to protect their partner and do anything possible to make sure that their loved one is protected, even doing something so UNSPEAKABLE, as removing their beloved child and disposing of the body....
People do these things it HAPPENS.
ITS not necessarily what I believe in to be honest, I am still not sure in my mind the child was harmed by her parents not at all, but sadly I think ANYONE is capable of self preservation its an instinc inherrant in all human beings.
I dont for one minute think the parents would have covered up an accidental death no way, children have accidents ALL THE TIME, and sadly they die because of them.
No I dont see that the parents would do that no way...
To be honest I would rather a child died of an accident then have been taken by a pedophile now that thought doesnt bear thinking about.
Non of the scenarios bode well for the child do they.
Its just so sad for Maddy no matter what we think. 8(8-))
Columbo, I readily understand that sadly there are many cases of parents killing and abusing their own children.
In fact I was reading just the other day a series of legal documents from the eighteenth century relating to a small village in Scandinavia where my ancestors are from, which contained court records of punishable offences committed in that area. The high number, statistically, of dreadful things that happened to children at the hands of their relatives was shocking. The instance of post natal depression was apparently extremely high, as maternal infanticide was a regular occurrence. Gladly society is beginning to understand this condition better. Other crimes involving children and young people were also prevalent but I won't go into them now as things could get a bit gory.
My point was that in the Madeleine case there is still no evidence for the McCanns having done anything sinister such as harming their child or concealing her body; in fact the 'evidence' we do have - admittedly it is scant - points to it being exceptionally difficult if not impossible for them to have done something of the kind. The question is why in the absence of evidence, these accusations are made.
People will quote statistics but as we have discussed again and again, we do not convict by statistics. If that were so, we wouldn't need a police force or a legal system.
Statistics do indeed point to parental culpability, and in the light of that, the McCanns ought to have been investigated more fully at the START of the investigation in Portugal.
Instead, we have a case where attention was turned to the McCanns after failure to find explanations in other areas, failure due in part to flawed and incompetent investigating (not looking at the CCTV cameras; not sealing off the crime scene; not sealing off the Spanish border; contamination in forensic procedures, etc etc.).
The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 28, 2013, 04:26:19 PM
Does the footage in the Verdade video, of an expert examining the window, rule out an intruder and prove that KM opened the window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on November 28, 2013, 04:44:58 PM
Columbo, I readily understand that sadly there are many cases of parents killing and abusing their own children.
In fact I was reading just the other day a series of legal documents from the eighteenth century relating to a small village in Scandinavia where my ancestors are from, which contained court records of punishable offences committed in that area. The high number, statistically, of dreadful things that happened to children at the hands of their relatives was shocking. The instance of post natal depression was apparently extremely high, as maternal infanticide was a regular occurrence. Gladly society is beginning to understand this condition better. Other crimes involving children and young people were also prevalent but I won't go into them now as things could get a bit gory.
My point was that in the Madeleine case there is still no evidence for the McCanns having done anything sinister such as harming their child or concealing her body; in fact the 'evidence' we do have - admittedly it is scant - points to it being exceptionally difficult if not impossible for them to have done something of the kind. The question is why in the absence of evidence, these accusations are made.
People will quote statistics but as we have discussed again and again, we do not convict by statistics. If that were so, we wouldn't need a police force or a legal system.
Statistics do indeed point to parental culpability, and in the light of that, the McCanns ought to have been investigated more fully at the START of the investigation in Portugal.
Instead, we have a case where attention was turned to the McCanns after failure to find explanations in other areas, failure due in part to flawed and incompetent investigating (not looking at the CCTV cameras; not sealing off the crime scene; not sealing off the Spanish border; contamination in forensic procedures, etc etc.).
The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
You've lost the whole scenario. Go back and look again.
Do you think this is much different from those men and women that killed their children in your native country?! It was a matter of survival, wasn't it?
In those times in your country (as in mine and many european countries) it was a question of food, nowadays there are other reasons.
The police intervention was as correct as anyone could expect in any developed country, it was even more forceful than how it happens in Britain when you have to expect for at least 24 hours to seen anything get going.
After 5 months the only evidence pointed to the parents involvement. They declined to cooperate to be exonerated, and as for the portuguese investigation, they are still suspects.
I hope they will be fully investigated and exonerated, because there is no sadder situation than be whatever/dismissed by your own parents.
As I stated before there is no way a stranger or strangers could have used the windows to extract a 3 year old.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on November 28, 2013, 05:11:53 PM
What has excluded Kate's version that she simply touched the frame of the open window to look out of it?
Wouldn't excluding potential innocent explanations be part of modern police investigations?
In the Dispatches programme, that I referred to in the op, the experts who studied the case were careful to point out that any fingerprints on the window/shutter that belonged to the occupants of the apartment could be there innocently
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 28, 2013, 06:20:10 PM
in fact the 'evidence' we do have - admittedly it is scant - points to it being exceptionally difficult if not impossible for them to have done something of the kind. The question is why in the absence of evidence, these accusations are made.
Please be more specific. What absence of evidence ? Wasn't a child carrier seen by the Smith family ? Isn't it possible that the child was dead ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on November 28, 2013, 06:44:34 PM
You've lost the whole scenario. Go back and look again.
Do you think this is much different from those men and women that killed their children in your native country?! It was a matter of survival, wasn't it?
In those times in your country (as in mine and many european countries) it was a question of food, nowadays there are other reasons.
The police intervention was as correct as anyone could expect in any developed country, it was even more forceful than how it happens in Britain when you have to expect for at least 24 hours to seen anything get going.
After 5 months the only evidence pointed to the parents involvement. They declined to cooperate to be exonerated, and as for the portuguese investigation, they are still suspects.
I hope they will be fully investigated and exonerated, because there is no sadder situation than be whatever/dismissed by your own parents.
As I stated before there is no way a stranger or strangers could have used the windows to extract a 3 year old.
I would say that for the vast majority of people the McCanns have been cleared
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 29, 2013, 12:25:15 AM
There is an absence of evidence for the McCanns having harmed or disposed of their child.
Let's see what SY say about Smithman. I understand there is another programme in the offing. As things stand at the moment, we have no idea who Smithman was and whether or not he was connected with the disappearance.
'we have no idea who Smithman was'
Sherlock by name only.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 29, 2013, 12:52:29 AM
What has excluded Kate's version that she simply touched the frame of the open window to look out of it?
Wouldn't excluding potential innocent explanations be part of modern police investigations?
.I believe her account, that she found the window open and only leaned on the window when she looked out, is true. IMO the expert examining the window (see Verdade video) is mistaken in deducing that she opened the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 29, 2013, 01:19:02 AM
There's as well no evidence that Madeleine wasn't harmed and disposed of by her parents in a swift and definitive way. No evidence at all ? There's evidence the shutters and window weren't used by an intruder or outruder. So why did the parents pretend they were open ? I find that more challenging than imagining Smithman was a zombie. I'm more pragmatic than you, Sherlock. It's within the Met's (seconded by 6 inspectors of Faro) abilities to establish the identity of all 3/4 little girl matching Smithman's child. At this low season time, local ones are not so many and go to the kindergarten.
What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?
IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s) would open them.
Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth. Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 01:45:33 AM
What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?
IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s) would open them.
Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth. Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?
I quoted everything this time ! I'm logical, Benice, I reckon you never opened this kind of shutters, it's boring, noisy and takes a certain time. So why doing it for no purpose ? Since nobody noticed them, it was enough to say they found them open and closed them because of the cold on the twins. SY are in charge of finding an abductor, can't you understand that ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 29, 2013, 01:48:54 AM
What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?
IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s) would open them.
Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth. Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?
You answered your own question, Benice. If we can't prove the window was never opened by an outsider, neither can the police.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 01:59:35 AM
You answered your own question, Benice. If we can't prove the window was never opened by an outsider, neither can the police.
The lack of fingerprints, even fragmentary, put a serious doubt on an outsider, a doubt that is reinforced by the lack of damaged lichen on the sill. All experts, UK and PT, agreed that nobody passed through that window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 29, 2013, 02:13:55 AM
The lack of fingerprints, even fragmentary, put a serious doubt on an outsider, a doubt that is reinforced by the lack of damaged lichen on the sill. All experts, UK and PT, agreed that nobody passed through that window.
I know Anne, it's extremely unlikely, but it's not so easy to state the window wasn't opened by an outsider who was already in the apartment. We can't do that, and neither can the police.
They have to be careful, and so far they have been careful to avoid mentioning any of the controversial areas of the case (apart from the 9.15 sighting, and Redwood clearly didn't enjoy that experience).
The window is definitely one area they'll want to leave well alone.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on November 29, 2013, 02:20:41 AM
What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?
IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s) would open them.
Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth. Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?
I disagree Benice
Unless the window was used as a point of entry ( a break in ) then is no 'credible' reason for it being open at all
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 29, 2013, 02:32:22 AM
There's as well no evidence that Madeleine wasn't harmed and disposed of by her parents in a swift and definitive way. No evidence at all ? There's evidence the shutters and window weren't used by an intruder or outruder. So why did the parents pretend they were open ? I find that more challenging than imagining Smithman was a zombie. I'm more pragmatic than you, Sherlock. It's within the Met's (seconded by 6 inspectors of Faro) abilities to establish the identity of all 3/4 little girl matching Smithman's child. At this low season time, local ones are not so many and go to the kindergarten.
So let's see what they say. They only just released the e-fits (for what they're worth).
Presumably SY have already talked to all the parents whose children were at the kindergarten that night and have ruled out Smithman as being one of them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 29, 2013, 02:33:13 AM
You answered your own question, Benice. If we can't prove the window was never opened by an outsider, neither can the police.
You have missed the point Lyall - which was that SY obviously believe that Kate and Gerry were telling the truth when they said the bedroom window and shutters had been opened by an intruder.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 29, 2013, 08:48:18 AM
You have missed the point Lyall - which was that SY obviously believe that Kate and Gerry were telling the truth when they said the bedroom window and shutters had been opened by an intruder.
What proof is there they told the truth ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on November 29, 2013, 08:56:22 AM
What proof is there that your persistent negativism about any possible potential positive outcome is of any use whatsoever. Kneejerk negativism. It is almost as if you want Madeleine to be dead in order to blame the McCanns. No moral compass!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 29, 2013, 08:57:34 AM
Unless the window was used as a point of entry ( a break in ) then is no 'credible' reason for it being open at all
IMO there are several credible reasons.
The only way to check that the whole area/car park in front of 5A was clear and they were not going to bump into anyone when they left - was by looking through that window. It was not possible to do that check from the recessed front door.
They could have been opened to provide a quick means of exit if someone unexpectedly came in through the patio doors.
They could have been opened to divert attention away from the fact that they had front door key.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 29, 2013, 09:06:00 AM
What proof is there that your persistent negativism about any possible potential positive outcome is of any use whatsoever. Kneejerk negativism. It is almost as if you want Madeleine to be dead in order to blame the McCanns. No moral compass!
To be fair, she is more than likely dead.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 29, 2013, 09:10:41 AM
Indeed. On the balance of probability in missing children cases, where the statitics have been quoted on numerous occasions,it is extremely unlikely that Madeleine is alive.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 29, 2013, 09:19:54 AM
Indeed. On the balance of probability in missing children cases, where the statitics have been quoted on numerous occasions,it is extremely unlikely that Madeleine is alive.
Furthermore it is quite likely the parents had some sort of involvement.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 29, 2013, 09:28:32 AM
Indeed. On the balance of probability in missing children cases, where the statitics have been quoted on numerous occasions,it is extremely unlikely that Madeleine is alive.
Until they get proof that their daughter is dead the McCanns will carry on trying to find out what happened to her. Just as Kerry Needham and the parents of other missing children who have vanished without a trace - also continue to do.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 29, 2013, 09:36:59 AM
Until they get proof that their daughter is dead the McCanns will carry on trying to find out what happened to her. Just as Kerry Needham and the parents of other missing children who have vanished without a trace - also continue to do.
'vanished without a trace'
Someone left a 'trace' in the McCanns apartment. And someone saw a 'trace' in Rua da Escola Primiara.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on November 29, 2013, 12:13:46 PM
Do you doubt it, Carana ? Have you seen pin pointed everywhere the fingerprints on the window frame ?
I haven't found anything other than this. If you have, I'd be interested.
MINISTRY OF JUSTICE
POLICIA JUDICIARIA
PORTIMAO CRIMINAL INVESTIGATION DEPARTMENT
Finger Print Inspection by Technical Police Team
Reg No 129/07
Assistant Specialist: Joao Barreiras
Policia Judiciaria
Portimao Criminal Investigation Department
Legal Identification Cabinet
At 01 time on 04-05-07, I , Joao Barreiras, Assistant Specialist, proceeded to inspect the location described below.
Signature
Crime: Disappearance of Child
Time:
Date: 03-04-2007 (sic)
Occurrence: About 22H00
Location:
Region: Lagos
Street or Place: Ocean Club Resort, Block 5, apartment 5A
Nature: Residence
NUIPC 201/07.0 OGALGS
Person Offended:
NAME MADELEINE MCCANN
VESTIGES COLLECTED
5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf
1. Methodology and means of operation:
2. Established number of supposed authors:
3. Abandoned objects:
4. Objects or values that were the target of the crime:
5. Importance of the damage incurred:
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother, The fingerprint inspection was only carried out on the inside of the window because it was night time, the location was sealed and preserved so that light conditions would permit the inspection of the residence to be finalised.
Accompanied by this (which only illustrates 4 prints for some reason) and seemingly no forensic analysis as to the position nor the implications. I haven't found any tests of prints on the outside of the window, and nothing personally identifiable on the shutter.
What proof is there that your persistent negativism about any possible potential positive outcome is of any use whatsoever. Kneejerk negativism. It is almost as if you want Madeleine to be dead in order to blame the McCanns. No moral compass!
What a terrible thing to say. No one wants the child to be dead for gods sake, but sadly the odds are not good for her returning alive. It isnt always about the McCanns or blaming them its about a CHILD....
Hardly kneejerk negativism as its been 7 years and the longer she is away the less likely sadly she will turn up alive...although I can assure you I pray for her all the time and her safe return.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 29, 2013, 12:54:56 PM
You have missed the point Lyall - which was that SY obviously believe that Kate and Gerry were telling the truth when they said the bedroom window and shutters had been opened by an intruder.
Well I doubt policemen believe anyone without supporting evidence to confirm it, but they will definitely believe David Cameron believes the McCanns are telling the truth.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on November 29, 2013, 03:06:14 PM
Well I doubt policemen believe anyone without supporting evidence to confirm it, but they will definitely believe David Cameron believes the McCanns are telling the truth.
Exactly ! I had to read thrice the word "believe" since I'm not yet convinced that the Met is operating on a sect basis.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 04:25:08 PM
However, how do these prints show that they were in an "opening position"?
Do you really think that a poster, on this forum, is competent to answer your question ? At least more competent than the Portuguese scientific police you suspect to be story telling ? Or are you asking just to ask ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 04:32:17 PM
I haven't found anything other than this. If you have, I'd be interested.
I'm sorry I didn't say it clearly, Carana. What I meant is that the fingerprints issue kept a low profile. Anybody thinking twice would understand that 1) there was no need to open the window and 2) opening the window would let cold wind disturb the sleeping twins.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 04:35:30 PM
Until they get proof that their daughter is dead the McCanns will carry on trying to find out what happened to her. Just as Kerry Needham and the parents of other missing children who have vanished without a trace - also continue to do.
All this is valid only if Madeleine was abducted from bed, but there is unfortunately no evidence of it. So you're speaking from a point of view which is pure belief, Benice, I hope you realize this.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 04:48:56 PM
So let's see what they say. They only just released the e-fits (for what they're worth).
Presumably SY have already talked to all the parents whose children were at the kindergarten that night and have ruled out Smithman as being one of them.
I meant little children who live in PDL permanently. There are probably not many matching the carried child. I guess the PJ made a neighbourhood inquiry. Remember the PJ always doubted Tannerman, but never Smithman.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 05:23:00 PM
I know Anne, it's extremely unlikely, but it's not so easy to state the window wasn't opened by an outsider who was already in the apartment. We can't do that, and neither can the police.
They have to be careful, and so far they have been careful to avoid mentioning any of the controversial areas of the case (apart from the 9.15 sighting, and Redwood clearly didn't enjoy that experience).
The window is definitely one area they'll want to leave well alone.
They only claimed that they found the shutters and window open. They cautiously didn't stage anything. Mr McCann, possibly when he messed up his bedroom shutters, tried to lift them from the outside and realised he could do it (as his shutters were blocked they didn't fall as normally they would do if you don't roll them with the strap). I don't believe that Mr McCann manipulated those shutters on that night, I even find it totally implausible given the terrible situation (they really lost a much beloved daughter). Mrs Webster tried (and didn't succeed) when Mrs McCann told her she found the shutters open. I agree with you there's no proof, but this is a presumption. And joined presumptions lead at least to conclude what couldn't have happened, contributing for the eradication of some unhelpful myths. It is certainly not by chance that Mrs McCann, a few days after hearing Moita Flores' comment on the window, wrote on their site that the window could have been a red herring. 3 years after she launched that red herring to the dogs !
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on November 29, 2013, 05:23:24 PM
Do you really think that a poster, on this forum, is competent to answer your question ? At least more competent than the Portuguese scientific police you suspect to be story telling ? Or are you asking just to ask ?
Nope. I'm asking on what basis Amaral and Moita Flores are asserting this. They are basing their assertions on the publicly available files, aren't they?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 29, 2013, 05:31:27 PM
I meant little children who live in PDL permanently. There are probably not many matching the carried child. I guess the PJ made a neighbourhood inquiry. Remember the PJ always doubted Tannerman, but never Smithman.
I'm just not too confident about the likelihood of finding Smithman after all these years.
If he was a PdL resident, either he would have come forward of his own volition or been interviewed by local police as part of a neighbourhood inquiry, as you say.
If he was a tourist taking his child back from the night creche (same as bundleman) then presumably he would have been identified by SY and eliminated.
It is possible though highly unlikely that he is an innocent member of the public oblivious to the media interest in him. But that doesn't explain why the mother of the child did not prompt him or come forward herself. Where is she?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 05:40:20 PM
I'm just not too confident about the likelihood of finding Smithman after all these years.
If he was a PdL resident, either he would have come forward of his own volition or been interviewed by local police as part of a neighbourhood inquiry, as you say.
If he was a tourist taking his child back from the night creche (same as bundleman) then presumably he would have been identified by SY and eliminated.
It is possible though highly unlikely that he is an innocent member of the public oblivious to the media interest in him. But that doesn't explain why the mother of the child did not prompt him or come forward herself. Where is she?
I don't think that Smithman as an innocent outsider will be found. I don't think he will be found as an abductor (the author of a planned abduction) as well, as he was walking and taking risks to be spotted. The only chance for Smithman is to be a local man who found Madeleine outside and lost. But who ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 29, 2013, 07:27:12 PM
I'm just not too confident about the likelihood of finding Smithman after all these years.
If he was a PdL resident, either he would have come forward of his own volition or been interviewed by local police as part of a neighbourhood inquiry, as you say.
If he was a tourist taking his child back from the night creche (same as bundleman) then presumably he would have been identified by SY and eliminated.
It is possible though highly unlikely that he is an innocent member of the public oblivious to the media interest in him. But that doesn't explain why the mother of the child did not prompt him or come forward herself. Where is she?
If it were me I'm not sure I'd come forward, and especially not if I saw Crimewatch. Would you want to risk this country's newspapers learning your name and address?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 29, 2013, 07:40:38 PM
If you have watched the Verdade video, what the expert is demonstrating, based on what is claimed to be the exact identification location and orientation of prints, is that KM certainly opened the window.
Although he is an expert, IMO there is one mistake, which makes the conclusion, that KM opened the window, completely incorrect.
Actually KM is telling the truth when she says she found the window already opened, IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 07:51:45 PM
Nope. I'm asking on what basis Amaral and Moita Flores are asserting this. They are basing their assertions on the publicly available files, aren't they?
Either they know how to read fingerprints or they were informed by a specialist.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 07:52:45 PM
If it were me I'm not sure I'd come forward, and especially not if I saw Crimewatch. Would you want to risk this country's newspapers learning your name and address?
But Innocentman wasn't identified, we only know from him that he keeps rotten pyjamas for years, we don't even know how he carried his child, nor where he stayed, nor why he went around PDL..
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 29, 2013, 07:57:44 PM
If you have watched the Verdade video, what the expert is demonstrating, based on what is claimed to be the exact identification location and orientation of prints, is that KM certainly opened the window.
Although he is an expert, IMO there is one mistake, which makes the conclusion, that KM opened the window, completely incorrect.
Actually KM is telling the truth when she says she found the window already opened, IMO.
'KM is telling the truth'
I find that difficult to believe.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 29, 2013, 08:05:15 PM
But Innocentman wasn't identified, we only know from him that he keeps rotten pyjamas for years, we don't even know how he carried his child, nor where he stayed, nor why he went around PDL..
True, but he was seen by a friend of the McCanns. The 10pm man wasn't. The newspapers demonstrably are happy to accept everything said about 9.15 at face value, because they don't want to go back to 2007/8 and risk the legal repercussions of asking questions about people who are well protected. But there's no such concern about the people involved at 10pm.
If I were 10pm man I wouldn't come forward unless I had legal protection that could guarantee the same anonymity as 9.15 man.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 29, 2013, 08:51:41 PM
In another part of the Verdade video, a child wakes up. The video gives no specific reason for waking up. IMO the obvious cause for this is the noise of someone opening the shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 29, 2013, 09:24:04 PM
In another part of the Verdade video, a child wakes up. The video gives no specific reason for waking up. IMO the obvious cause for this is the noise of someone opening the shutter.
Gerry or Kate?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 29, 2013, 09:41:04 PM
IMO no. Window and shutter are opened from outside by a person who thinks everyone is out, and is intending to climb in steal money cameras etc, but doesn't climb in, because he gets scared by suddenly seeing/hearing that not everyone is out, so he flees empty-handed. IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 29, 2013, 10:55:12 PM
I don't think that Smithman as an innocent outsider will be found. I don't think he will be found as an abductor (the author of a planned abduction) as well, as he was walking and taking risks to be spotted. The only chance for Smithman is to be a local man who found Madeleine outside and lost. But who ?
So why hasn't he come forward? Or been approached and interviewed by local police?
And if he found her lost why didn't he take her to the police station?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 29, 2013, 11:17:11 PM
True, but he was seen by a friend of the McCanns. The 10pm man wasn't. The newspapers demonstrably are happy to accept everything said about 9.15 at face value, because they don't want to go back to 2007/8 and risk the legal repercussions of asking questions about people who are well protected. But there's no such concern about the people involved at 10pm.
If I were 10pm man I wouldn't come forward unless I had legal protection that could guarantee the same anonymity as 9.15 man.
I understand what you mean, Lyall, but now things are different, aren't they ? 10pm man could be Rightman, couldn't he ? I think the PJ inquired in the village and got people talk. SY reached to the same conclusion than the PJ, by other means and with more respect for the sighter, but all the same Tannerman was a fake. SY's explanation will convince me only when told the time, the route and the way (and reason for the way) of carrying (because I still think Ms Tanner saw something). The fact it took 2 years and a half to SY to reach the conclusion of the PJ turns the wish of joined troops rather hilarious.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on November 30, 2013, 09:29:40 AM
Either they know how to read fingerprints or they were informed by a specialist.
After his "we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold..." statement, I'm somewhat sceptical about it.
The report would have noted it, in theory, if that had been the case, don't you think? The photo is just of isolated prints for identification purposes.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 12:18:57 PM
After his "we policemen, experts, say that the cadaver was frozen or preserved in the cold..." statement, I'm somewhat sceptical about it.
The report would have noted it, in theory, if that had been the case, don't you think? The photo is just of isolated prints for identification purposes.
What has a frozen corpse to do with fingerprints ? The interest of these fingerprints is mainly that they were the only ones : no stranger opened the window and may be nobody opened it as well. Mrs McCann might have first tried to do it then thought that call for help was better.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 12:34:11 PM
So why hasn't he come forward? Or been approached and interviewed by local police?
And if he found her lost why didn't he take her to the police station?
That's what he intented to do because he didn't understand what she was saying and he couldn't see from where she came. He soon realised that she was afraid and was going to scream. He was even more frightened, he put his hand on her face, he was in a panic. She calmed down. He remembered there was a medical centre and decided to take her there, but it was closed. He took her to his place and waited for the morning to come. He then would know what to do. When he finally fell asleep he had a terrible nightmare that woke him up, he understood that horror was real. He opened the door and heard something had happened, unusual noises were flying in the air. He stayed at home all day, there was only one way to escape, he needed the dead of night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 30, 2013, 04:52:57 PM
That's what he intented to do because he didn't understand what she was saying and he couldn't see from where she came. He soon realised that she was afraid and was going to scream. He was even more frightened, he put his hand on her face, he was in a panic. She calmed down. He remembered there was a medical centre and decided to take her there, but it was closed. He took her to his place and waited for the morning to come. He then would know what to do. When he finally fell asleep he had a terrible nightmare that woke him up, he understood that horror was real. He opened the door and heard something had happened, unusual noises were flying in the air. He stayed at home all day, there was only one way to escape, he needed the dead of night.
All conjecture, isn't it?
And why would he in a panic before he did anything wrong? And Madeleine, in the company of a panicking stranger with his hand over her mouth, decides to calm down?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 05:11:53 PM
And why would he in a panic before he did anything wrong? And Madeleine, in the company of a panicking stranger with his hand over her mouth, decides to calm down?
Conjecture of course, but not implausible. "calm down" is metaphorical.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 05:19:03 PM
The dogs found the last living outdoor trail of Madeleine so unfortunately I believe Smithman the Deceptor was carrying a deceased child. No efits on the update so hopefully genuine eye witnesses came forward.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 05:27:07 PM
The dogs found the last living outdoor trail of Madeleine so unfortunately I believe Smithman the Deceptor was carrying a deceased child. No efits on the update so hopefully genuine eye witnesses came forward.
It wasn't the last living outdoor trail, Pathfinder, it was the trail the dogs found after being released in the corridor. Remember Madeleine used the window-door that day. This anyhow seems to mean that Madeleine didn't leave the flat alive for the last time (trailer dogs avoid non living scent).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 05:39:35 PM
The dogs found the living trail from the front. I don't believe their deceptions as I've told you before. They knew the dogs had done their searches on Madeleine before they did their statements saying she came to the back. I don't believe that - I believe the dogs and she came back to the front. Eddie alerted cadaver at the back (not the front) so she left that way. It's very simple.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 05:43:34 PM
The dogs found the living trail from the front. I don't believe their deceptions as I've told you before. They knew the dogs had done their searches on Madeleine before they did their statements saying she came to the back. I don't believe that - I believe the dogs and she came back to the front 8)--)) Eddie alerted cadaver at the back so she left that way. It's very simple.
No. Eddie alerted when the door was open and the air came out. I you read the reports, you'll see that they found many dog's hair near the door-window, indicating that Numi found something there.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 05:55:38 PM
Very easy deception. She came in the back so the abductor took a living Madeleine out through the front. They don't want you to know that this was in fact the last living trail found when Madeleine returned from the crèche. Eddie didn't alert anywhere at the front so she never left that way. He alerted at the back, outside bedroom window where she left and down at the flower bed where she was put down briefly, check coast is clear, and out through the back gate.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 06:14:35 PM
Very easy deception. She came in the back so the abductor took a living Madeleine out through the front. They don't want you to know that this was in fact the last living trail found when Madeleine returned from the crèche. Eddie didn't alert anywhere at the front so she never left that way. He alerted at the back, outside bedroom window where she left and down at the flower bed where she was put down briefly, check coast is clear, and out through the back gate.
I'm sorry I don't understand your point. Who is "they" ? The words "back" and "front" are confusing. These flats have only one door. On the other side there are door-windows (this is how it's called in Portugal and in France), no key, no way in, unless left open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 07:18:43 PM
Back is the patio door/tapas side re cadaver alerts. Front is the car park side where the front key was used to enter re Madeleine's found route coming back from the creche. They consist of Smithman and his partner and they know where Madeleine can be found.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 30, 2013, 08:20:31 PM
Back is the patio door/tapas side re cadaver alerts. Front is the car park side where the front key was used to enter re Madeleine's found route coming back from the creche. They consist of Smithman and his partner and they know where Madeleine can be found.
You sound very confident about this,pathfinder.
Is there something you know that we don't?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 08:34:30 PM
Nope Smithman is the key. No Smithman No Case.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 30, 2013, 08:52:40 PM
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 09:06:19 PM
Smithman was out at that time but I don't think he was bundleman. But JT's unbelievable testimony doesn't help. She walked past Gerry and Jeremy on the same side of the road without either noticing and then spotted him. That's another big discrepancy.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 09:06:46 PM
Not necessarily IMO. If Smithman is identified and is eliminated from the case, then that would mean that with no sightings in PdL - there is a strong possibility that Madeleine was taken away by car.
If Smithman is not eliminated, then there still remains the other possibility - i.e. that she was taken away by boat.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on November 30, 2013, 09:13:34 PM
Not necessarily IMO. If Smithman is identified and is eliminated from the case, then that would mean that with no sightings in PdL - there is a strong possibility that Madeleine was taken away by car.
If Smithman is not eliminated, then there still remains the other possibility - i.e. that she was taken away by boat.
Why would a man not get a car and carry a child in public for 700m plus plus to a flipping boat!!!!
Nonsense!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 09:19:45 PM
Not necessarily IMO. If Smithman is identified and is eliminated from the case, then that would mean that with no sightings in PdL - there is a strong possibility that Madeleine was taken away by car.
If Smithman is not eliminated, then there still remains the other possibility - i.e. that she was taken away by boat.
SY studied likely and thoroughly the possibility that Smithman was another Innocentman. There are not many children matching Smithgirl in PDL in the beginning of May. There are police boats all along that coast which is a border of the EU.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2013, 09:22:15 PM
Smithman was out at that time but I don't think he was bundleman. But JT's unbelievable testimony doesn't help. She walked past Gerry and Jeremy on the same side of the road without either noticing and then spotted him. That's another big discrepancy.
Why would you claim JT's testimony was 'unbelievable' - when the man she saw has been identified by SY as almost certainly being a tourist carrying his own child - and insodoing have also proved JT to be correct in what she saw?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 09:26:00 PM
Why would you claim JT's testimony was 'unbelievable' - when the man she saw has been identified by SY as almost certainly being a tourist carrying his own child - and insodoing have also proved JT to be correct in what she saw?
No, Benice, this is speculation. DCI RW said nothing of that kind. He didn't even said where nor when this Innocentman walked, just near the McCann flat.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 09:26:24 PM
You have to try and figure out Smithman's unusual behaviour and actions. I don't believe it's a coincidence that he was spotted after the alarm had been raised. Some think Madeleine wandered out of the apartment but there's no evidence to suggest that happened so I look at alternative solutions from the discrepancies in the statements and from the dog findings, window evidence etc. Smithman had to be quick but they were all running in different directions so he could get to where he needed to go very quickly.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2013, 09:28:39 PM
SY studied likely and thoroughly the possibility that Smithman was another Innocentman. There are not many children matching Smithgirl in PDL in the beginning of May. There are police boats all along that coast which is a border of the EU.
Amaral himself comments on the criminal activities which were taking place by boat along the Algarve coast.
Quote from his book
The Algarvian coast, very popular with sailing enthusiasts, is bordered by a large number of marinas. Pleasure boats from every province berth here. Situated 120 nautical miles from the African continent, between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, it is the most accessible coast for entering the continent of Europe. It attracts many yachtsmen, who appreciate the beauty of its beaches and its inlets, but it also attracts all sorts of traffickers. End quote
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 09:37:11 PM
Amaral himself comments on the criminal activities which were taking place by boat along the Algarve coast.
Quote from his book
The Algarvian coast, very popular with sailing enthusiasts, is bordered by a large number of marinas. Pleasure boats from every province berth here. Situated 120 nautical miles from the African continent, between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, it is the most accessible coast for entering the continent of Europe. It attracts many yachtsmen, who appreciate the beauty of its beaches and its inlets, but it also attracts all sorts of traffickers. End quote
All sorts of drugs, but also Spanish boats, better equipped, that fish in Portuguese waters. That's why the coast is protected by many police boats.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2013, 09:42:38 PM
No, Benice, this is speculation. DCI RW said nothing of that kind. He didn't even said where nor when this Innocentman walked, just near the McCann flat.
What speculation and by whom? SY said there was compelling evidence to believe that the man JT saw was a man they have since identified. If they didn't say that - then what did they say?
The fact that they chose not to spend time during the programm in divulging every last tiny detail of their findings regarding that person is irrelevant imo. The main message SY wanted to convey to the public was that this new information affected the timelines because it meant the abductor could have taken Madeleine after the time of JT's sighting.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2013, 09:50:29 PM
Why would you claim JT's testimony was 'unbelievable' - when the man she saw has been identified by SY as almost certainly being a tourist carrying his own child - and insodoing have also proved JT to be correct in what she saw?
I don't doubt that she saw bundleman/tannerman but she couldn't have passed Gerry and Jez on the same side of the road without either noticing. That's the unbelievable bit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 30, 2013, 10:08:48 PM
Here's an assumption: "The person(s) who did or invented the window/shutter opening MUST be the same as the person(s) who disappeared a child"
Mr Spock would see the danger of that assumption immediately. Yes it seems logical. But it is not. Quite the opposite.
Plus, it potentially risks missing the solving of the case, because it rules out the following possibility: "The person(s) who did the window/shutter opening does not know, and has nothing to do with, the person(s) who disappeared a child" which leads to much more plausible scenarios IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 30, 2013, 10:32:59 PM
What speculation and by whom? SY said there was compelling evidence to believe that the man JT saw was a man they have since identified. If they didn't say that - then what did they say?
The fact that they chose not to spend time during the programm in divulging every last tiny detail of their findings regarding that person is irrelevant imo. The main message SY wanted to convey to the public was that this new information affected the timelines because it meant the abductor could have taken Madeleine after the time of JT's sighting.
Didn't Redwood say a man had contacted them and said he might be 9.15 man?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 30, 2013, 10:34:57 PM
What speculation and by whom? SY said there was compelling evidence to believe that the man JT saw was a man they have since identified. If they didn't say that - then what did they say?
The fact that they chose not to spend time during the programm in divulging every last tiny detail of their findings regarding that person is irrelevant imo. The main message SY wanted to convey to the public was that this new information affected the timelines because it meant the abductor could have taken Madeleine after the time of JT's sighting.
He contacted them, not the other way around.
If my memory serves me well... >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 10:39:17 PM
What speculation and by whom? SY said there was compelling evidence to believe that the man JT saw was a man they have since identified. If they didn't say that - then what did they say?
The fact that they chose not to spend time during the programm in divulging every last tiny detail of their findings regarding that person is irrelevant imo. The main message SY wanted to convey to the public was that this new information affected the timelines because it meant the abductor could have taken Madeleine after the time of JT's sighting.
The AG didn't share your opinion about what is irrelevant, he considered reconstitution was necessary about Ms Tanner passing along two persons without being seen.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 10:40:31 PM
No Anne - he does not say ''all sorts of drugs''. He says ''all sorts of traffickers''.
''All sorts of traffickers'' includes human traffickers.
You are extrapolating, GA doesn't speak of human traffic. Those precarious boats from Africa don't end up near the Portuguese coast, but in Mediterranean ones.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on November 30, 2013, 10:46:28 PM
Here's an assumption: "The person(s) who did or invented the window/shutter opening MUST be the same as the person(s) who disappeared a child"
Mr Spock would see the danger of that assumption immediately. Yes it seems logical. But it is not. Quite the opposite.
Plus, it potentially risks missing the solving of the case, because it rules out the following possibility: "The person(s) who did the window/shutter opening does not know, and has nothing to do with, the person(s) who disappeared a child" which leads to much more plausible scenarios IMO.
Madeleine didn't go out through the window and it wasn't a means of entry or exit for anyone. The only evidence found on it were fingerprints. The window will be used to show that an abductor didn't need to open it. Actually it would be crazy for an abductor to take the unnecessary risk and wasting precious time in raising those noisy shutters, never mind squeezing past cots, bed, chair in the dark without leaving any evidence. If an opportunist burglar opened it and fled empty handed then he timed it very well because it wasn't open at 9.30 and JT and ROB both went through the car park at the front of the apartments after that time and didn't notice it being open. It was found open a short time later according to Kate.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 30, 2013, 10:46:50 PM
Fair enough, Anne. I just checked what Redwood says: "Having discussed with them what they were doing on the night, they themselves thought that they could be the Tanner sighting".
Carefully worded by the DCI.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 10:49:04 PM
Fair enough, Anne. I just checked what Redwood says: "Having discussed with them what they were doing on the night, they themselves thought that they could be the Tanner sighting".
Carefully worded by the DCI.
I wonder if "them" means all foreign fathers of little kids.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 30, 2013, 11:04:47 PM
Madeleine didn't go out through the window and it wasn't a means of entry or exit for anyone. The only evidence found on it were fingerprints. The window will be used to show that an abductor didn't need to open it. Actually it would be crazy for an abductor to take the unnecessary risk and wasting precious time in raising those noisy shutters, never mind squeezing past cots, bed, chair in the dark without leaving any evidence. If an opportunist burglar opened it and left empty handed then he timed it very well because it wasn't open at 9.30 and JT and ROB both went through the car park at the front of the apartments after that time and didn't notice it being open. It was found open a short time later according to Kate.
I agree that no-one climbed in the window, no-one climbed out the window, and no-one and nothing was passed through the window. What I am suggesting is that the first event was someone opened the window and shutter from outside then immediately ran away and did nothing else.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2013, 11:12:54 PM
You are extrapolating, GA doesn't speak of human traffic. Those precarious boats from Africa don't end up near the Portuguese coast, but in Mediterranean ones.
No I'm not. I quoted his exact words, it was you tried to put a different meaning on what he said by inferring that he was referring only to drugs.
Drug trafficking is only one kind of trafficking. That is not what he said.
''All sorts of trafficking'' means more than one sort of trafficking. It could not be more clear.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 30, 2013, 11:17:10 PM
I agree that no-one climbed in the window, no-one climbed out the window, and no-one and nothing was passed through the window. What I am suggesting is that the first event was someone opened the window and shutter from outside then immediately ran away and did nothing else.
The Phantom Shutter Opener of Praia da Luz, raising peoples shutters & sneaking off into the night !
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 30, 2013, 11:23:21 PM
Eight families with eleven children in the creche, Redwood says.
At least one of the parents collecting a child(s) from creche that night was a mother. I think it is in the statement of one of the employees doing the creche that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 11:28:06 PM
No I'm not. I quoted his exact words, it was you tried to put a different meaning on what he said by inferring that he was referring only to drugs.
Drug trafficking is only one kind of trafficking. That is not what he said.
''All sorts of trafficking'' means more than one sort of trafficking. It could not be more clear.
GA doesn't mention human traffic. Everybody knows there is traffic of drugs and arms and illegal fishing. But I've never heard of human traffic. So please provide a link or don't spread a myth.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on November 30, 2013, 11:34:48 PM
Eight families with eleven children in the creche, Redwood says.
Perhaps there was only one father (no choice) who alone picked up his child at about 9. Innocentman, coming from the creche, anyhow, would hardly cross FGM in the W-E direction. DCI RW's credibility is low on that topic.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on November 30, 2013, 11:43:33 PM
Fair enough, Anne. I just checked what Redwood says: "Having discussed with them what they were doing on the night, they themselves thought that they could be the Tanner sighting".
Carefully worded by the DCI.
Where is it mentioned who contacted whom?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 30, 2013, 11:44:55 PM
The Phantom Shutter Opener of Praia da Luz, raising peoples shutters & sneaking off into the night !
You may scoff but Phantom Creche Dad turned out to be real. Phantom Shutter Opener will too IMO. A burglar, who while gaining access finds unexpectedly that not everyone is out, will immediatly run away.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 30, 2013, 11:49:24 PM
Perhaps there was only one father (no choice) who alone picked up his child at about 9. Innocentman, coming from the creche, anyhow, would hardly cross FGM in the W-E direction. DCI RW's credibility is low on that topic.
I agree. He describes his revelation moment as "exciting", which I guess is as close as they're ever going to come to saying in public that they didn't believe 9.15 man was an abductor in the first place.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on November 30, 2013, 11:55:55 PM
GA doesn't mention human traffic. Everybody knows there is traffic of drugs and arms and illegal fishing. But I've never heard of human traffic. So please provide a link or don't spread a myth.
LOL - it's not me trying to spread a myth. You are the one who decided that 'all sorts of trafficking' meant only one sort of trafficking - and it was you who decided that he meant drugs trafficking. He clearly did not say that.
It's not my words that you are disputing - it's Amarals own words from his own book!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on November 30, 2013, 11:55:59 PM
Redwood doesn't say in Crimewatch, he just says "one particular family we spoke to gave us information that was really interesting and exciting". He doesn't actually say who contacted who.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 01, 2013, 12:20:08 AM
You may scoff but Phantom Creche Dad turned out to be real. Phantom Shutter Opener will too IMO. A burglar, who while gaining access finds unexpectedly that not everyone is out, will immediatly run away.
What I find interesting about the shutters is the alleged alibi that it provided at around the time of the Smithman sighting. Close but no cigar.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 01, 2013, 12:56:03 AM
Phantom Shutter Opener does not rule out the possible direct relevance of Smithman, it is possible to have both people in one scenario IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on December 01, 2013, 08:45:10 AM
LOL - it's not me trying to spread a myth. You are the one who decided that 'all sorts of trafficking' meant only one sort of trafficking - and it was you who decided that he meant drugs trafficking. He clearly did not say that.
It's not my words that you are disputing - it's Amarals own words from his own book!
Yes Anne, everybody knows that child trafficking is absolutely rife in da Luz, it's obvious by the vast amount of children that are snatched from their beds in that region every night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 01, 2013, 10:05:12 AM
Yes Anne, everybody knows that child trafficking is absolutely rife in da Luz, it's obvious by the vast amount of children that are snatched from their beds in that region every night.
It has become increasingly pathetic how the mccanns supporters and the mccanns themselves, seek to put blame onto others for their own failings as parents.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on December 01, 2013, 10:07:20 AM
Yes Anne, everybody knows that child trafficking is absolutely rife in da Luz, it's obvious by the vast amount of children that are snatched from their beds in that region every night.
So why do you think Amaral ordered the following actions?
Quote from his book.
The Spanish customs service has been asked to increase vigilance at the two ports maintaining links with Morocco,Tarifa and Algeciras. The Algarvian coast, very popular with sailing enthusiasts, is bordered by a large number of marinas. Pleasure boats from every province berth here. Situated 120 nautical miles from the African continent, between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, it is the most accessible coast for entering the continent of Europe. It attracts many yachtsmen, who appreciate the beauty of its beaches and its inlets, but it also attracts all sorts of traffickers.-
Make contact with the marinas and the maritime police; we must have access to video recordings as well as the registers of boats entering and leaving in the last few days.
- I am going to contact them and make sure they have started the sea searches.
Unquote:
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 01, 2013, 10:15:41 AM
So why do you think Amaral ordered the following actions?
Quote from his book
The Spanish customs service has been asked to increase vigilance at the two ports maintaining links with Morocco,Tarifa and Algeciras. The Algarvian coast, very popular with sailing enthusiasts, is bordered by a large number of marinas. Pleasure boats from every province berth here. Situated 120 nautical miles from the African continent, between the Mediterranean and the Atlantic, it is the most accessible coast for entering the continent of Europe. It attracts many yachtsmen, who appreciate the beauty of its beaches and its inlets, but it also attracts all sorts of traffickers.-
Make contact with the marinas and the maritime police; we must have access to video recordings as well as the registers of boats entering and leaving in the last few days.
- I am going to contact them and make sure they have started the sea searches.
Unquote:
Because a child was claimed to have been abducted, border checks (road, rail, air & sea) would be sensible practice in that event I'd imagine.
But does that mean child trafficking was common? I've seen no evidence to that effect.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on December 01, 2013, 10:49:58 AM
Because a child was claimed to have been abducted, border checks (road, rail, air & sea) would be sensible practice in that event I'd imagine.
But does that mean child trafficking was common? I've seen no evidence to that effect.
No-one has claimed that child trafficking was ''common'' in Portugal.
Amaral claims ''all sorts of trafficking' takes place along the coast. As he makes that comment in the part of his book where he is describing the measures he took in light of that particular knowledge, why would anyone conclude that he was was excluding the possibility of human trafficking on this occasion? As it was a little girl who had disappeared that would make no sense.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 01, 2013, 11:04:51 AM
LOL - it's not me trying to spread a myth. You are the one who decided that 'all sorts of trafficking' meant only one sort of trafficking - and it was you who decided that he meant drugs trafficking. He clearly did not say that.
It's not my words that you are disputing - it's Amarals own words from his own book!
You're spreading a myth, Benice, GA never spoke of human traffic and your insisting in interpreting "all kinds of" as "human" shows you're incapable to provide a link to the contrary. The Atlantic isn't the Mediterranean.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 01, 2013, 11:06:45 AM
No-one has claimed that child trafficking was ''common'' in Portugal.
Amaral claims ''all sorts of trafficking' takes place along the coast. As he makes that comment in the part of his book where he is describing the measures he took in light of that particular knowledge, why would anyone conclude that he was was excluding the possibility of human trafficking on this occasion? As it was a little girl who had disappeared that would make no sense.
Is their much demand for dead children in the human trafficking world?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 01, 2013, 11:10:38 AM
Yes Anne, everybody knows that child trafficking is absolutely rife in da Luz, it's obvious by the vast amount of children that are snatched from their beds in that region every night.
I bet Madeleine, the only child abducted from bed in Europe in the first decade of the XXIth, will keep that record up to the end of it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 01, 2013, 11:21:23 AM
Is their much demand for dead children in the human trafficking world?
There's some demand of organs and of babies for adoption (the last known traffic (Bulgaria) has been quickly dismantled). There's demand of young women and men from poorer countries for prostitution, usually from eastern countries. For technical and security reasons this traffic doesn't operate by boat.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 01, 2013, 02:44:00 PM
I provided a theory only of the first few events, a sequence of actions by two seperate people, with exact location and plausible reason for each action identified, and how the actions of each person triggers the actions of the other. Its only the beginning, and does not alone explain the disappearance, but at least it is specific in details. No point in repeating the theory further, but hopefully at least it got people to consider whether or not the window autolocks, and whether the statements say it was locked or not. So adios for now Mr PSO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on December 01, 2013, 04:09:38 PM
You're spreading a myth, Benice, GA never spoke of human traffic and your insisting in interpreting "all kinds of" as "human" shows you're incapable to provide a link to the contrary. The Atlantic isn't the Mediterranean.
He never spoke of drugs trafficking either Anne - that was your interpretation. Maybe you should provide a link to prove that your claim that 'All sorts of trafficking' specifically EXCLUDES human trafficking and that Amaral is actually only referring to ''all sorts of drugs.''
In his book he is describing the actions he ordered to be taken. He did so in the certain knowledge that ''all sorts of trafficking '' took place along the Algarve coast. It is reasonable to assume that he took those measures because there was a possibility there was a plan to forcibly remove a child from one country to another by sea. What other reasons could he have had for adopting those measures?
And why would he even bother to bring up the subject of 'trafficking' at all in his book when talking about Madeleine's disappearance, if he believed 'trafficking' had no bearing on the case and was irrelevant.
That makes no sense.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 01, 2013, 04:27:06 PM
I provided a theory only of the first few events, a sequence of actions by two seperate people, with exact location and plausible reason for each action identified, and how the actions of each person triggers the actions of the other. Its only the beginning, and does not alone explain the disappearance, but at least it is specific in details. No point in repeating the theory further, but hopefully at least it got people to consider whether or not the window autolocks, and whether the statements say it was locked or not. So adios for now Mr PSO.
The shutters have nothing to do with her disappearance. That was only to promote the abduction theory. Let's all check the shutters and contaminate the crime scene before the police arrive. Kate telling Dianne Webster about the shutters. Funny I thought Gerry had already checked them before Dianne did after arriving only minutes later but that's another discrepancy as he was out running and searching for Madeleine with the rest of the men going in different directions. Only later the shutters were found to be a good alibi for the Smithman sighting. Can't be in two places at once deception.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Rogerandout on December 01, 2013, 05:43:26 PM
What a terrible thing to say. No one wants the child to be dead for gods sake, but sadly the odds are not good for her returning alive. It isnt always about the McCanns or blaming them its about a CHILD....
Hardly kneejerk negativism as its been 7 years and the longer she is away the less likely sadly she will turn up alive...although I can assure you I pray for her all the time and her safe return.
I happen to believe that she is probably dead, but I nevertry like some do to use the high probability of her death to prove any point.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 01, 2013, 06:56:20 PM
IMO there are indications that soon after the alarm 4 members of the group tested raising a shutter from outside (3 tested shutter outside window of child bedroom, and 1 tested shutter outside door-window of adult bedroom).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 01, 2013, 08:30:48 PM
In my opinion there are indications? What precisely do you mean by that?
The statements indicate IMO that after the alarm four people of the group tested opening a shutter from outside. 3 tests on shutter of window of child bedroom and 1 test on shutter of door-window of adult bedroom. (Sources IIRC are Sept statement of GM and 2008 statements of, DW, RO, FP) P.S. (I corrected a source I had listed wrong)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 01, 2013, 09:37:07 PM
What's puzzling is why it took him several years to do this.
Not only that, but it took SY two and a half years to get this info and publicise it..and not only that but the whole thing seemed disjointed and bizarre...passed off as a parent havng picked up their child from the creche...only they were walking in the wrong direction, they also were carrying the child like you would carrythe dead and the pyjamas were orange and blue not pink and white....maybe it was all some kind of ruse >@@(*&)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 02, 2013, 01:23:40 AM
See SY child clothing photo, that pink blanket would be covering the pyjama top, but not covering the knees or lower legs , and so it appeared to the witness like a pink top IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Luz on December 02, 2013, 10:47:41 AM
Peter Pan could....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 02, 2013, 11:34:48 AM
He never spoke of drugs trafficking either Anne - that was your interpretation.
I read Portuguese newspapers, that's how I'm informed about drugs traffic. Please reasonably limit your words, when referring to Mr Amaral, strictly to what he said.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 02, 2013, 11:40:55 AM
The shutters have nothing to do with her disappearance. That was only to promote the abduction theory. Let's all check the shutters and contaminate the crime scene before the police arrive. Kate telling Dianne Webster about the shutters. Funny I thought Gerry had already checked them before Dianne did after arriving only minutes later but that's another discrepancy as he was out running and searching for Madeleine with the rest of the men going in different directions. Only later the shutters were found to be a good alibi for the Smithman sighting. Can't be in two places at once deception.
Mrs Webster found Mrs McCann alone repeating that the shutters had been forced open from the outside. But what Mrs Webster saw was closed shutters. So she reacted as someone who can't believe their eyes, went outside, tried in vain to lift the shutters, showing it wasn't as easy as that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 02, 2013, 11:46:01 AM
Mrs Webster found Mrs McCann alone repeating that the shutters had been forced open from the outside. But what Mrs Webster saw was closed shutters. So she reacted as someone who can't believe their eyes, went outside, tried in vain to lift the shutters, showing it wasn't as easy as that.
Exactly Anne there too many contradictions about the shutters. They were found to be a good alibi for one person when he was in fact out searching with the other men. If that person went past the Smith family you can bet that he would want an alibi for that time and the embellished story about wasting precious time in examining the shutters like a CSI officer instead of looking for Madeleine became it. As you point out Dianne was examining them only minutes later when Kate was found alone in the apartment. That's the important part the false alibi.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 02, 2013, 02:34:59 PM
Exactly Anne there too many contradictions about the shutters. They were found to be a good alibi for one person when he was in fact out searching with the other men. If that person went past the Smith family you can bet that he would want an alibi for that time and the embellished story about wasting precious time in examining the shutters like a CSI officer instead of looking for Madeleine became it. As you point out Dianne was examining them only minutes later when Kate was found alone in the apartment. That's the important part the false alibi.
If Mrs McCann had told Mrs Webster "Gerry has already checked it, Dianne, those shutters can be lifted from the outside", why would Mrs Webster have tried herself ? I always found it was too much, even for a pragmatic doctor, to manipulate shutters a few minutes after discovering his daughter is missing, Mr McCann learnt a bit about this kind of shutters when he messed his bedroom's ones. There was an obvious reason, though it made Mr McCann appear an extraordinary cold blood father, to claim he experimented the shutters and was amazed they were liftable from the outside : the planet had to believe the intrusion through window. And in fact it did. But Mr McCann didn't touch the shutters, he had other things to do.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 02, 2013, 03:43:49 PM
If Mrs McCann had told Mrs Webster "Gerry has already checked it, Dianne, those shutters can be lifted from the outside", why would Mrs Webster have tried herself ? I always found it was too much, even for a pragmatic doctor, to manipulate shutters a few minutes after discovering his daughter is missing, Mr McCann learnt a bit about this kind of shutters when he messed his bedroom's ones. There was an obvious reason, though it made Mr McCann appear an extraordinary cold blood father, to claim he experimented the shutters and was amazed they were liftable from the outside : the planet had to believe the intrusion through window. And in fact it did. But Mr McCann didn't touch the shutters, he had other things to do.
The planet had to believe the intrusion through window. And in fact it did
I didn't. But then, I am not of this planet.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 02, 2013, 03:57:41 PM
Until they realised how iffy it was & amended their statements accordingly.
Honestly, Wonderfulspam, acquaintances, as acrobats as you in leaving kids alone, tell you the window was open and the child gone, would you doubt them ? I wouldn't.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Cariad on December 03, 2013, 09:27:59 AM
A Downtown resident awakened by a noise early Wednesday scared off a would-be burglar who left empty-handed ---- The attempted burglary happened at about 4:45 a.m ---- The resident heard a window being opened and turned a light on, scaring off the burglar ---- The window, which had been closed but wasn't locked, was now open
The burglar never entered, the crime scene was an open window through which no-one entered or exited. P.S. Exactly like the crime scene in PDL. Simples. Burglary interrupted pre-entry.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 03, 2013, 09:03:36 PM
That would be extraordinary good timing for an alleged burglar to be opening the windows and shutters just before Madeleine was reported to be missing.
"immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 03, 2013, 09:27:45 PM
That would be extraordinary good timing for an alleged burglar to be opening the windows and shutters just before Madeleine was reported to be missing.
Not extraordinary at all IMO if you see the causal link.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 07, 2013, 11:09:11 PM
The verdade video claims there is evidence (the locations of prints) that KM opened the window. Has anyone else actually watched the relevant footage (crossed arms) and seen the exact reason why that claim is incorrect?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 23, 2013, 02:35:11 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTNXowdzksI The photo at 9m30s is a crucial part of the examination of who opened the bedroom window. Look through the photos in the files until you find that exact photo , then read the caption. The photo at 9m34s is also a crucial part of the examination of who opened the bedroom window. Look through the photos in the files until you find that exact photo , then read the caption. What are those two photos of? Whose identifiable print? Which digit? Which room? Read the captions and you may be surprised. The totally innocent person accused of opening the window has been more unjustly accused than any other IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on December 23, 2013, 06:38:11 AM
I looked at the window, the size the height the shutter. The noise to lift the shutters up, then negotiate to slide the window, and then climb in the window which only had a small opening really, would have left scuff marks etc on the wall and sill. I believe there was non?
Also the window was in full view of the car park. Would a burglar choose such an entry? The door i can understand. IF they had the tools they could probably get in the front door easier it was away from the light and set to an angle so no one would have really noticed. It would probably have been less effort to get in the front door.
I had an intruder many years ago with a window similar and a shutter which was slightly raised to give air, and I heard the person immediately as the shutter rattled and so did my sister who was in the room with me and we scared him off. It scared us to death to be honest, and a new security lock was fitted internally, but the shutters do make a noise without doubt.
Noise travels at night surely if someone tampered with the shutter and window the amount of Tapas 7 floating about and OTHER PEOPLE, i.e. residents and holiday makers wouldnt someone have heard it....
Nah for me it never happened. If it dont make sense then it usually isnt. BUT if you wanted to set a scene then opening the window and shutter would be part of the scene that was set by the players.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on December 23, 2013, 07:52:38 AM
Apart from all the technical reason for the windows being opened and by whom, would an abductor really risk waking the children? The same goes for any intruder, for whatever reason.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Apostate on December 23, 2013, 11:19:18 AM
The McCanns say both doors were unlocked there was no need to use a window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 23, 2013, 11:25:46 AM
I looked at the window, the size the height the shutter. The noise to lift the shutters up, then negotiate to slide the window, and then climb in the window which only had a small opening really, would have left scuff marks etc on the wall and sill. I believe there was non?
Also the window was in full view of the car park. Would a burglar choose such an entry? The door i can understand. IF they had the tools they could probably get in the front door easier it was away from the light and set to an angle so no one would have really noticed. It would probably have been less effort to get in the front door.
I had an intruder many years ago with a window similar and a shutter which was slightly raised to give air, and I heard the person immediately as the shutter rattled and so did my sister who was in the room with me and we scared him off. It scared us to death to be honest, and a new security lock was fitted internally, but the shutters do make a noise without doubt.
Noise travels at night surely if someone tampered with the shutter and window the amount of Tapas 7 floating about and OTHER PEOPLE, i.e. residents and holiday makers wouldnt someone have heard it....
Nah for me it never happened. If it dont make sense then it usually isnt. BUT if you wanted to set a scene then opening the window and shutter would be part of the scene that was set by the players.
No cars on the car park at all on the occasions that I visited in June/July 2010.
That window and shutter were opened and the noise was so normal and unobtrusive that no-one noticed it. I repeat NO-ONE noticed it.
You do realise that when presented on videos the shutter noise can be magnified. Not saying it was, but we dont know.
That supposed noise is a BIG deal to some on here. I wonder why? No-one heard it, it cant have been very loud..
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 23, 2013, 11:37:23 AM
I looked at the window, the size the height the shutter. The noise to lift the shutters up, then negotiate to slide the window, and then climb in the window which only had a small opening really, would have left scuff marks etc on the wall and sill. I believe there was non?
Also the window was in full view of the car park. Would a burglar choose such an entry? The door i can understand. IF they had the tools they could probably get in the front door easier it was away from the light and set to an angle so no one would have really noticed. It would probably have been less effort to get in the front door.
I had an intruder many years ago with a window similar and a shutter which was slightly raised to give air, and I heard the person immediately as the shutter rattled and so did my sister who was in the room with me and we scared him off. It scared us to death to be honest, and a new security lock was fitted internally, but the shutters do make a noise without doubt.
Noise travels at night surely if someone tampered with the shutter and window the amount of Tapas 7 floating about and OTHER PEOPLE, i.e. residents and holiday makers wouldnt someone have heard it....
Nah for me it never happened. If it dont make sense then it usually isnt. BUT if you wanted to set a scene then opening the window and shutter would be part of the scene that was set by the players.
Like you, I have many of those shutters and I know how noisy they can be at night, even when they're lifted the normal way. My neighbour downstairs even asked me to close my bedroom ones before 10, because the noise woke her up. The walls (the building wall and the carpark wall constitute a marvellous sound box. This is why Mr O'Brien heard his child cry when he was crossing the car park.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on December 23, 2013, 11:56:07 AM
No cars on the car park at all on the occasions that I visited in June/July 2010.
That window and shutter were opened and the noise was so normal and unobtrusive that no-one noticed it. I repeat NO-ONE noticed it.
You do realise that when presented on videos the shutter noise can be magnified. Not saying it was, but we dont know.
That supposed noise is a BIG deal to some on here. I wonder why? No-one heard it, it cant have been very loud..
Whoever opened it ,It didn't wake the babies, but they didn't wake when all the noise was going on after 10pm either, did they?. IMO I think an intruder/ kidnapper, would have used the door and would not risk waking the children with the shutters and window noise, how ever quietly they could do it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 24, 2013, 08:55:03 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTNXowdzksI At 9m30s a photo of fingerprints is shown as a crucial part of proving KM opened the bedroom window. Believing in checking all sources carefully, I searched the files until I found that exact photo. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_971.jpg Read the caption yourself. Its a policemans thumb on the outside of the lounge door-window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 25, 2013, 03:46:37 AM
Come on, the comment doesn't say the exhibited fingerprint is Mrs McCann's one and it's clearly written under the fingerprint "door/window living room".
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on December 25, 2013, 06:51:30 AM
Like you, I have many of those shutters and I know how noisy they can be at night, even when they're lifted the normal way. My neighbour downstairs even asked me to close my bedroom ones before 10, because the noise woke her up. The walls (the building wall and the carpark wall constitute a marvellous sound box. This is why Mr O'Brien heard his child cry when he was crossing the car park.
EXACTLY, and if we are to believe the McCanns and their friends spent all evening going back and forth someone would have heard the shutters opening surely.
We rarely opened ours to be honest, they were security and also to keep the heat out so we got used to just leaving them down anyway.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 25, 2013, 05:09:56 PM
Come on, the comment doesn't say the exhibited fingerprint is Mrs McCann's one and it's clearly written under the fingerprint "door/window living room".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTNXowdzksI The last part of this video segment is about the bedroom window. It is not about the lounge door-window. The page from the files shown in the video at 9m30s is NOT of the bedroom window and is NOT of KM's prints. The page from the files shown in the video at 9m34s is NOT of the bedroom window and is NOT of KM's prints. The image at 9:30s is what inspired Mr Flores IMO to do his crossed arm demonstration. What are images from the files, of a GNR officer's thumbprint on the lounge patio door, which are nothing to do with KM and nothing to do with the bedroom, doing in the middle of a "proof" that KM opened the bedroom window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on December 25, 2013, 05:21:10 PM
I have no idea, unless off course that same officer accidentally put his print on the bedroom window and they were eliminating them from the evidence of the other prints
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 25, 2013, 05:28:26 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nTNXowdzksI The last part of this video segment is about the bedroom window. It is not about the lounge door-window. The page from the files shown in the video at 9m30s is NOT of the bedroom window and is NOT of KM's prints. The page from the files shown in the video at 9m34s is NOT of the bedroom window and is NOT of KM's prints. The image at 9:30s is what inspired Mr Flores IMO to do his crossed arm demonstration. What are images from the files, of a GNR officer's thumbprint on the lounge patio door, which are nothing to do with KM and nothing to do with the bedroom, doing in the middle of a "proof" that KM opened the bedroom window?
Do you understand the comment ? This is by no way a rigorous documentary analysing data for police officers, but a TV film inspired by a book ! it has no importance that the fingerprint is mine or yours, it's just an illustration for "fingerprint". And any Portuguese will read that the fingerprint was caught in the door-window of the living room. Any person who wants to see Mrs McCann's fingerprints can do it consulting the PJ Files.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 25, 2013, 05:33:37 PM
I have no idea, unless off course that same officer accidentally put his print on the bedroom window and they were eliminating them from the evidence of the other prints
On the bedroom window (inside) there were only Mrs McCann's fingerprints. It is only strange because she said she never touched that window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 25, 2013, 07:45:51 PM
Thanks very much. Finally the confirmation I've been looking for :
"They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key."
Madeleine went through the front door at 5.40pm as I thought because the tracking dogs found her last outdoor trail around the path to the car park opposite the tapas bar - they took a short cut path back from the crèche which comes to that car park. Not the back patio door. It all connects. Remember don't dis the dogs or they may come back and bite you on the ass 8(0(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 25, 2013, 10:57:01 PM
"The window to Madeleine’s bedroom remained closed, but she doesn’t know if it was locked, shutters and curtains drawn, and that was how it remained since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window shutters in Madeleine’s room open, it was not the deponent who opened them, and she never saw them open."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 25, 2013, 11:34:25 PM
That statement says "she never opened it". What statement says "she never touched it" ?
IMO this witness found the window already open, and found the child apparently missing, and found cat on bed, all exactly as stated. Her prints on window are from leaning to look out IMO. Honest witness IMO. In this manner amend not abandon Mr Amarals theory and a solution will be closer IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 26, 2013, 01:05:34 AM
Thanks very much. Finally the confirmation I've been looking for :
"They entered the apartment by the main door, with the key."
Madeleine went through the front door at 5.40pm as I thought because the tracking dogs found her last outdoor trail around the path to the car park opposite the tapas bar - they took a short cut path back from the crèche which comes to that car park. Not the back patio door. It all connects. Remember don't dis the dogs or they may come back and bite you on the ass 8(0(*
That's not what Mr McCann states (10th May) - After 17H30 they went to the apartment, the deponent having entered by the main door, which he did not lock while he was inside the residence. KATE and the children entered by the rear door, after this had been opened from the inside by the deponent.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 26, 2013, 01:10:44 AM
That statement says "she never opened it". What statement says "she never touched it" ?
IMO this witness found the window already open, and found the child apparently missing, and found cat on bed, all exactly as stated. Her prints on window are from leaning to look out IMO. Honest witness IMO. In this manner amend not abandon Mr Amarals theory and a solution will be closer IMO.
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window blinds in Madeleine's room open, it was not Kate who opened them, she never saw them open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 26, 2013, 01:26:32 AM
That's not what Mr McCann states (10th May) - After 17H30 they went to the apartment, the deponent having entered by the main door, which he did not lock while he was inside the residence. KATE and the children entered by the rear door, after this had been opened from the inside by the deponent.
I know but she said in her 6th Sept interview statement that they entered the front door way with key at lunchtime and at teatime on the 3rd.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 26, 2013, 01:44:14 AM
The first statement is considered by any police as likely closer to the truth.
I've always gone with that too. The apartment was locked with All shutters down & I've seen nothing to persuade me otherwise.
It makes more sense anyhow that Mr McCann would open the door-window for her, as she (said she) was carrying Madeleine.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 26, 2013, 02:18:49 PM
If we're going from first statements then this is very interesting from Matt (11:30am 4 May):
At around 21h25, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom quarters, that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was half-open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light in question was from an artificial source but not inside the bedroom, rather from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.
This was supposed to be Kate's check so if the shutters were open, opened by who before 9.30pm?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 26, 2013, 03:01:33 PM
If we're going from first statements then this is very interesting from Matt (11:30am 4 May):
At around 21h25, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom quarters, that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was half-open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. That the light in question was from an artificial source but not inside the bedroom, rather from outside through the bedroom window. That it seemed to him that the shutters of the bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open.
This was supposed to be Kate's check so if the shutters were open, opened by who before 9.30pm?
The Tannerman abductor apparently.
It's understandable why Crimewatch avoided going into detail of Oldfield's supposed visit since it places the 'abduction' before 9.30.
Oldfield's visit is a complete fabrication imo hence the differences in the stickerbook timeline. They couldn't fit the pre planned check in with the Tannerman abductor story which was not preplanned.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 26, 2013, 03:33:57 PM
It's understandable why Crimewatch avoided going into detail of Oldfield's supposed visit since it places the 'abduction' before 9.30.
Oldfield's visit is a complete fabrication imo hence the differences in the stickerbook timeline. They couldn't fit the pre planned check in with the Tannerman abductor story which was not preplanned.
Mr Oldfield's statement betrays an attempt to sit on the fence.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 26, 2013, 04:07:21 PM
It's understandable why Crimewatch avoided going into detail of Oldfield's supposed visit since it places the 'abduction' before 9.30.
Oldfield's visit is a complete fabrication imo hence the differences in the stickerbook timeline. They couldn't fit the pre planned check in with the Tannerman abductor story which was not preplanned
Mr Oldfield's statement betrays an attempt to sit on the fence.
I believe Madeleine was not in the apartment at 9.30pm so the shutters could have been opened by someone before Matt's check (originally Kate's check so that can't be ignored).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 26, 2013, 04:38:50 PM
Kate McCann 4th May 2007.
"At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did."
Kate McCann Crimewatch 2013.
"the curtains that I say that were closed kind just kind of ‘whoosh’
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 26, 2013, 04:50:19 PM
Kate McCann 4th May 2007
"At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did."
Kate McCann ‘Madeleine Was Here’
"I did my check about 10’oclock and went in through the sliding patio doors, And I Just stood actually and I thought oh all quiet, And to be honest I might have been tempted to turn round then but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping was open much further than we’d left it.
Strange how she went from immediately noticing the door was open to being tempted to turned round and leave before just noticing the position of the door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 26, 2013, 04:52:50 PM
"At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did."
Kate McCann Crimewatch 2013.
"the curtains that I say that were closed kind just kind of ‘whoosh’
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on December 26, 2013, 06:26:54 PM
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 26, 2013, 11:03:46 PM
Ever notice how two of the 4th May statements are almost identical. Now why is that ? Is it because one witness asked to be in the room and sitting just behind while the most important witness was interviewed?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 26, 2013, 11:14:45 PM
Good point.
"Gerry had asked João Carlos if he could be allowed to stay with me while I was questioned because he was extremely worried about my psychological state. I was grateful to João Carlos for agreeing, with the proviso that Gerry remained seated behind me. I appreciate now that this would not be acceptable practice in most police investigations. João Carlos interviewed me, assisted by a young female interpreter. He put his questions in Portuguese, the interpreter relayed them to me in English and then she translated my answers into Portuguese. The interview was neither videoed nor audio-taped. Instead João Carlos tapped my answers, as given to him in Portuguese by the interpreter, into his computer. As you can imagine, it was an incredibly laborious process. My eyes were still continually drawn towards the clock, or my watch, and as the minutes and then the hours ticked by my body became more and more tense. The officer began with how we came to be in Portugal and then concentrated on the point at which I discovered Madeleine was missing. When he asked me if it was the first time I had been to Portugal I said, ‘Yes. Never again!’ The interpreter turned to me and said, ‘Mrs McCann, this could have happened anywhere.’ She was right, of course, and I was a bit ashamed of that remark, but in the circumstances it was hardly surprising I felt that way at that moment. As I recounted how I’d found Madeleine’s bedclothes neatly folded back my voice faltered. Every now and then Gerry would put a hand on my shoulder or give me a reassuring squeeze. The interview lasted four long hours." (Madeleine book excerpt)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 26, 2013, 11:42:04 PM
Thanks pathfinder. Every now and then?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 26, 2013, 11:49:50 PM
"As I recounted how I’d found Madeleine’s bedclothes neatly folded back my voice faltered. Every now and then Gerry would put a hand on my shoulder or give me a reassuring squeeze. The interview lasted four long hours." (Madeleine book excerpt)
6th SEPT 2007 They (the twins) also kissed Madeleine, who was lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold. Tidy abductor ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 12:15:44 AM
The top button was not pressed and the window although closed was not locked. A petty thief thought everyone was out (adults seen leaving and only one table lamp on in whole apartment and no noise, so it was a reasonable assumption), and so from outside he partly lifted the shutter and slid the east half of the window open and reached in and operated the strap to properly raise the shutter fully. This noise woke one child who ran into another room, and the would-be thief, seeing this, ran away, never entering the apartment (he had thought there was absolutely no-one home). Mr Amarals doumentary video of this moment needs amending as follows: 1. the random waking needs to be replaced by waking caused by the shutter noise, and 2. the relaxed speed of exit to another room needs to be increased, and 3. toy stays on bed. Mr Amaral and Mr Flores were not the first to fail to see this simple sequence. Someone else misinterpreted the evidence that very night and reached totally the wrong conclusion. IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on December 27, 2013, 01:00:26 AM
The open window isn't evidence pegasus, since only one person says they saw it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2013, 01:03:41 AM
Ever notice how two of the 4th May statements are almost identical. Now why is that ? Is it because one witness asked to be in the room and sitting just behind while the most important witness was interviewed?
Any decent police force wouldn't tolerate that. Are you sure or just making another assumption? Seems that this Police force allowed it. Apologies Pegasus.
Not good practice at all. imo. And I am astounded tbh.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on December 27, 2013, 01:06:19 AM
6th SEPT 2007 They (the twins) also kissed Madeleine, who was lying down. She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold. Tidy abductor ?
Dont understand that comment.
What do you mean by that Anne?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2013, 01:16:54 AM
The top button was not pressed and the window although closed was not locked. A petty thief thought everyone was out (adults seen leaving and only one table lamp on in whole apartment and no noise, so it was a reasonable assumption), and so from outside he partly lifted the shutter and slid the east half of the window open and reached in and operated the strap to properly raise the shutter fully. This noise woke one child who ran into another room, and the would-be thief, seeing this, ran away, never entering the apartment (he had thought there was absolutely no-one home). Mr Amarals doumentary video of this moment needs amending as follows: 1. the random waking needs to be replaced by waking caused by the shutter noise, and 2. the relaxed speed of exit to another room needs to be increased, and 3. toy stays on bed. Mr Amaral and Mr Flores were not the first to fail to see this simple sequence. Someone else misinterpreted the evidence that very night and reached totally the wrong conclusion. IMO.
This is NOT FACT Pegasus.
It should NOT be stated as such. It is misleading to the reader.
The "imo" only refers to the last line.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2013, 01:20:23 AM
The open window isn't evidence pegasus, since only one person says they saw it.
Tommy Rot. Of course it is evidence.
Just cos you and some of your mates prefer not to believe ANYTHING in Kate, Gerrys and the Tapas groups statements [unless it supports your particular ideas] does not mean that it is not evdence.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 01:30:58 AM
Yes indeed it is only my amateur opinion and it might be wrong so please read every post I make with an implied IMO in every phrase, including this one: The person accused of opening the window did not open it and moreover is totally innocent.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lyall on December 27, 2013, 01:33:44 AM
Just cos you and some of your mates prefer not to believe ANYTHING in Kate, Gerrys and the Tapas groups statements [unless it supports your particular ideas] does not mean that it is not evdence.
It would have been evidence if it was open and had been left open for the others to see, but it wasn't.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 27, 2013, 02:05:11 AM
It was evidence by Kate ... just because you disbelieve it does not make it any other than evidence.
But then you and your mates disbelieve all the tapas and Mccann evidence automatically unless it helps promote your ideas. Dontcha?
Nigh Night
Yep, you got that right, but it is wise to be cautious about any witness statements that aren't corroborated by other witnesses.
And most of their statements aren't. Only J Wilkins can support part of the story.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 02:34:48 AM
IMO when this case is officially solved it will be clear that the statements of the vast majority of these witnesses are completely honest. Certainly that includes this witness IMO. The "proof" that this witness opened the window is illogical and easily disproveable IMO. A false deduction that this witness opened the window may have been a significant part of the reasons for an unfortunate decision IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on December 27, 2013, 06:54:23 AM
The top button was not pressed and the window although closed was not locked. A petty thief thought everyone was out (adults seen leaving and only one table lamp on in whole apartment and no noise, so it was a reasonable assumption), and so from outside he partly lifted the shutter and slid the east half of the window open and reached in and operated the strap to properly raise the shutter fully. This noise woke one child who ran into another room, and the would-be thief, seeing this, ran away, never entering the apartment (he had thought there was absolutely no-one home). Mr Amarals doumentary video of this moment needs amending as follows: 1. the random waking needs to be replaced by waking caused by the shutter noise, and 2. the relaxed speed of exit to another room needs to be increased, and 3. toy stays on bed. Mr Amaral and Mr Flores were not the first to fail to see this simple sequence. Someone else misinterpreted the evidence that very night and reached totally the wrong conclusion. IMO.
How would a burglar know that?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 07:38:23 PM
The thief does not know in advance whether the window is locked or unlocked. It takes only about 2 or 3 seconds to raise the shutter a few inches from outside and test if the window slides. If the window doesn't slide the thief simply gently lets the shutter down those few inches and moves on to a different target apartment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 07:52:08 PM
I understand that theory but how would the neatly folded bed covers come into it?
IMO it is possible the fairly neat covers are consistent with being on that bed when awakened by noise. Covers are certainly not staged IMO, anyone staging them would put them in greater disarray.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on December 27, 2013, 08:19:11 PM
The thief does not know in advance whether the window is locked or unlocked. It takes only about 2 or 3 seconds to raise the shutter a few inches from outside and test if the window slides. If the window doesn't slide the thief simply gently lets the shutter down those few inches and moves on to a different target apartment.
Interesting points, Pegasus. I'm not aware the forensic teams checked on the shutters of any other apartments for fingerprints that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on December 27, 2013, 09:10:17 PM
There's really nothing interesting in this crazy theory that someone was wandering around Luz opening shutters.
I agree, Apostate.
And on a related note, Pegasus asks how a prospective burglar would know if windows were open or not.
By the same token, how would an abductor?
How could an abductor have included the idea of opening the window during an abduction scenario - for one of many reasons previously listed - when he couldn't have known in advance whether the window was closed or open? (Unless it was tested when the family were away from the house during the day, which seems rather unlikely).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 10:14:51 PM
There's really nothing interesting in this crazy theory that someone was wandering around Luz opening shutters.
It may be constructive to solve it first with no occupants present.
Imagine this scenario: One evening a family on holiday all go out for a meal, and when they get back they find a shutter and window open, traces of someone climbing in the window, and some cameras phones passports and jewellery missing. The solution is easy: a thief opened shutter and window from outside, climbed in through the window, and stole small items that can be sold easily for drug money.
But that is not what happened. So now try this one
Now imagine this scenario, it is exactly the same but with just one thing added, which changes everything: One evening a family on holiday all go out for a meal, and when they get back they find a shutter and window open, but no trace of anyone climbing in, and no valuables missing. Another easy one to solve: a thief opened shutter and window from outside, but at that moment the thief was disturbed by someone and made a quick exit from the area, thats why the thief did not climb in, and didn't steal anything.
Does not that second scenario match well the scene discovered? Entire post obviously is IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 27, 2013, 10:17:16 PM
It may be constructive to solve it first with no occupants present.
Imagine this scenario: One evening a family on holiday all go out for a meal, and when they get back they find a shutter and window open, traces of someone climbing in the window, and some cameras phones passports and jewellery missing. The solution is easy: a thief opened shutter and window from outside, climbed in through the window, and stole small items that can be sold easily for drug money.
But that is not what happened. So now try this one
Now imagine this scenario, it is exactly the same but with just one thing added, which changes everything: One evening a family on holiday all go out for a meal, and when they get back they find a shutter and window open, but no trace of anyone climbing in, and no valuables missing. Another easy one to solve: a thief opened shutter and window from outside, but at that moment the thief was disturbed by someone and made a quick exit from the area, thats why the thief did not climb in, and didn't steal anything.
Does not that second scenario match well the scene discovered? Entire post obviously is IMO
It matches except for one glaring omission....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 27, 2013, 10:53:36 PM
Yes but slowly slowly. It is big progress IMO, to solve the scene for the "everyone out for meal" simplification, where the "person disturbs thief during entry" seems like the most reasonable explanation.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2013, 12:04:37 AM
And on a related note, Pegasus asks how a prospective burglar would know if windows were open or not.
By the same token, how would an abductor?
How could an abductor have included the idea of opening the window during an abduction scenario - for one of many reasons previously listed - when he couldn't have known in advance whether the window was closed or open? (Unless it was tested when the family were away from the house during the day, which seems rather unlikely).
Or unless the window was deliberately unlocked by someone intent on helping the abduction. Thta would mean either the cleaners, the men who were repairing the patio window in the mccanns room, or anyone with an excuse to go in.
I am not sure that the Mccanns knew that the window was locked to begin with. They knew it was closed, but did they know it was locked?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 12:11:09 AM
Or unless the window was deliberately unlocked by someone intent on helping the abduction. Thta would mean either the cleaners, the men who were repairing the patio window in the mccanns room, or anyone with an excuse to go in.
I am not sure that the Mccanns knew that the window was locked to begin with. They knew it was closed, but did they know it was locked?
I have always wondered about this.
But presumably if they knew it was locked, they would have commented on the fact that it had been unlocked that night, complete with the opening of shutters, curtains and all, by someone other than themselves.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 12:41:18 AM
But presumably if they knew it was locked, they would have commented on the fact that it had been unlocked that that night, complete with the opening of shutters, curtains and all, by someone other than themselves.
The window as the way to get in and out lasted as long as they hadn't realized that time required Tannerman to be inside when Mr McCann did his check and if he was inside the window couldn't be open. Then the window became only the way out until the forensic police showed nobody passed there. Finally, almost 3 years later the window became a possible red herring. How could they know if it was locked or not ? They said they never touched that window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 12:53:43 AM
IMO it is possible the fairly neat covers are consistent with being on that bed when awakened by noise. Covers are certainly not staged IMO, anyone staging them would put them in greater disarray.
She was under the covers, she thinks because she was a bit cold.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 01:03:52 AM
Another hypothetical example. After their child is asleep some adults in UK turn out most of the lights and go to a nearby house for a coffee. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety by a thief disturbed before climbing in?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 01:32:50 AM
The window as the way to get in and out lasted as long as they hadn't realized that time required Tannerman to be inside when Mr McCann did his check and if he was inside the window couldn't be open. Then the window became only the way out until the forensic police showed nobody passed there. Finally, almost 3 years later the window became a possible red herring. How could they know if it was locked or not ? They said they never touched that window.
So we've made some progress in this case!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 01:34:59 AM
Yes but slowly slowly. It is big progress IMO, to solve the scene for the "everyone out for meal" simplification, where the "person disturbs thief during entry" seems like the most reasonable explanation.
Progress in what aim? Can you remind me why you are going down this road with the open window? What material difference does it make given that we are fairly certain that it was not a point of entry?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2013, 01:51:21 AM
Another hypothetical example. After their child is asleep some adults in UK turn out most of the lights and go to a nearby house for a coffee. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety by a thief disturbed before climbing in?
Have you ever been to the UK pegasus? How many houses, apartments have you come across with shutters?
Apart from decorative ones that are now terribly dated and a few mansions, I have never come across any house that has shutters .... and I have been around for 76 years.
How many Brits do you know who drink coffee, especially in the evening?
And how many Brits do you know who go round to their neighbours houses to drink coffee, or anything , leaving their child in a locked house with dimmed lights?
Wrong, wrong, wrong
Sorry. Nil out of three. Good try tho.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2013, 01:58:10 AM
Progress in what aim? Can you remind me why you are going down this road with the open window? What material difference does it make given that we are fairly certain that it was not a point of entry?
Exactly Sherlock. We are fairly certain that it was neither a point of entry nor exit for the lifter.
If s/he went out of the front door, then makes sense that Madeleine did too.
It also makes sense that the most likely way in was the recessed, out of sight front door .... and probably using a key
Only my opinions, of course, but based on logic.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 01:58:34 AM
Progress in what aim? Can you remind me why you are going down this road with the open window? What material difference does it make given that we are fairly certain that it was not a point of entry?
The shutter being opened from outside explains the reason for waking, isn't that important?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 02:02:43 AM
Exactly Sherlock. We are fairly certain that it was neither a point of entry nor exit for the lifter.
If s/he went out of the front door, then makes sense that Madeleine did too.
It also makes sense that the most likely way in was the recessed, out of sight front door .... and probably using a key
Only my opinions, of course, but based on logic.
More than opinion and logic: logic corroborated with forensics and known facts.
The window was a highly unlikely point of entry or exit for anyone - forensic evidence.
The patio door, curtains, stair gate were all closed (unlikely an abductor would go to the trouble of closing all these behind him on his way out with a child in his arms); the south side of the apartment was in view of the tapas bar area where not only Madeleine's parents but many more tourists and potential witnesses were milling - strong circumstancial evidence.
All in all most likely that the front door was used.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 02:12:42 AM
Have you ever been to the UK pegasus? How many houses, apartments have you come across with shutters? Apart from decorative ones that are now terribly dated and a few mansions, I have never come across any house that has shutters .... and I have been around for 76 years. How many Brits do you know who drink coffee, especially in the evening? And how many Brits do you know who go round to their neighbours houses to drink coffee, or anything , leaving their child in a locked house with dimmed lights? Wrong, wrong, wrong Sorry. Nil out of three. Good try tho.
Ok I have improved the hypothetical scenario here:- After their child is asleep some adult tourists visiting Spain turn out most of the lights of their rented apartment and go briefly to a nearby cafe for a beverage. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2013, 02:16:32 AM
The shutter being opened from outside explains the reason for waking, isn't that important?
Are you on Professional Investigator Heriberto Janosches theory, Pegasus? Where the abductor opened the shutters, slid open the window ... and Madeleine had walked across to the window having been wakened by the shutter opening.
The abductor leaned in and picked Madeleine up under her arms and lifted her out through the open window.
Do we know how open the shutters were? And how open the window was? Any information on that abywhere, that anyone knows about?
Nobody heard the shutters being opened. I wonder just how loud they were? We cant trust videos, because the sound level can be adjusted.
The window was closed and I wonder if an opening shutter that seemingly was not too loud if no-one heard it, would awaken Madeleine
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 28, 2013, 02:21:22 AM
Ok I have improved the hypothetical scenario here:- After their child is asleep some adult tourists visiting Spain turn out most of the lights of their rented apartment and go briefly to a nearby cafe for a beverage. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety?
Much better Pegasus, but personally I dont know of anyone who would leave the hotel / apartment premises for a drink in such circumstances.
Has this actually happened?
Off to bed now
Nigh night
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 28, 2013, 07:55:02 AM
Are you on Professional Investigator Heriberto Janosches theory, Pegasus? Where the abductor opened the shutters, slid open the window ... and Madeleine had walked across to the window having been wakened by the shutter opening.
The abductor leaned in and picked Madeleine up under her arms and lifted her out through the open window.
Do we know how open the shutters were? And how open the window was? Any information on that abywhere, that anyone knows about?
Nobody heard the shutters being opened. I wonder just how loud they were? We cant trust videos, because the sound level can be adjusted.
The window was closed and I wonder if an opening shutter that seemingly was not too loud if no-one heard it, would awaken Madeleine
'Professional Investigator Heriberto Janosches'
Another self professed expert ?
Is he an expert in faked abductions as well ? 8)-)))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 11:34:42 AM
More than opinion and logic: logic corroborated with forensics and known facts.
The window was a highly unlikely point of entry or exit for anyone - forensic evidence.
The patio door, curtains, stair gate were all closed (unlikely an abductor would go to the trouble of closing all these behind him on his way out with a child in his arms); the south side of the apartment was in view of the tapas bar area where not only Madeleine's parents but many more tourists and potential witnesses were milling - strong circumstancial evidence.
All in all most likely that the front door was used.
Where have you seen that the patio door, the curtains and the stair gate were closed ?
Nobody but the group was in the restaurant after the Carpenter left. Many witnesses (like Mrs Webster, Mrs Oldfield and waiters) said it was not possible to see more than the dark top part of the sliding door and even so behind a plastic screen with reflecting lights.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2013, 12:38:06 PM
Surely the simple scenario is that the abductor climbed in through the window and opened the door from the inside in order for him to leave
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on December 28, 2013, 01:25:28 PM
Surely the simple scenario is that the abductor climbed in through the window and opened the door from the inside in order for him to leave
I agree that is a possibility Davel. The window is certainly big enough for an adult to climb through.
Although personally I also think the fact that it was only through that bedroom window that a clear view of the path and the carpark could be seen is a credible reason for why it may have been opened from the inside. The abductor would not want to leave through the front door having no idea at all whether anyone was in close proximity - and that possibility could not be ascertained from the recessed front door.
An open window would also be the means of a sharp exit and to avoid confrontation if someone was heard entering through the patio doors.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 05:14:20 PM
Where have you seen that the patio door, the curtains and the stair gate were closed ?
Nobody but the group was in the restaurant after the Carpenter left. Many witnesses (like Mrs Webster, Mrs Oldfield and waiters) said it was not possible to see more than the dark top part of the sliding door and even so behind a plastic screen with reflecting lights.
I appreciate there wasn't a clear view of the apartment from the Tapas area. The question is whether someone would risk entering / leaving via the patio doors because and take the risk, however small, of being seen. They would feel exposed using that entrance, regardless of the actual visibility.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 05:17:45 PM
any abductor/burglar would realise the front door exit was better even if the need to brandish a weapon arose. IMO a holiday maker would not wish to confront a burglar brandishing a weapon.
The scoop of the weapon made me laugh. Thank you ! A simple but good quality screw driver would do.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 05:26:08 PM
I appreciate there wasn't a clear view of the apartment from the Tapas area. The question is whether someone would risk entering / leaving via the patio doors because and take the risk, however small, of being seen. They would feel exposed using that entrance, regardless of the actual visibility.
Yes, but that sliding was open, big advantage to get in. Now to get out and carrying I agree that no.. Though even snooping before, an abductor couldn't know whether the door would be unlocked (openable from the inside) or be locked but with the key in the locker (as it should be in order to let exit free in case of fire) or not.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 05:39:23 PM
Surely the simple scenario is that the abductor climbed in through the window and opened the door from the inside in order for him to leave
That is assuming the front door was unlocked.....and we will never know if it was or not as the mccanns themselves werent sure! One day they said it was, the other day said it might have been, the next said it probably wasnt, etc etc....like you dont remember when you leave your three kids in and go out night after night whether you lock the door or not!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on December 28, 2013, 05:45:37 PM
That is assuming the front door was unlocked.....and we will never know if it was or not as the mccanns themselves werent sure! One day they said it was, the other day said it might have been, the next said it probably wasnt, etc etc....like you dont remember when you leave your three kids in and go out night after night whether you lock the door or not!
What type of lock was on the front door...a yale lock is locked from the outside but can be opened from the inside...The patio doors were unlocked and the front door was locked...the confusion about locked/unlocked was down to translation error imo
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 05:53:49 PM
What type of lock was on the front door...a yale lock is locked from the outside but can be opened from the inside...The patio doors were unlocked and the front door was locked...the confusion about locked/unlocked was down to translation error imo
of course it would be....locked and unlocked are the same words in portuguese, sorry
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 06:15:30 PM
So why no forensic evidence on the window or sill?
Indeed that is the first question anyone would ask - including the police. It's for that reason that I believe Kate McCann when she said she returned to find her daughter gone and the shutters and window wide open. And as any normal person would think imo - she assumed, at that very first moment, that someone had broken in via that window and taken her child. She had no way of knowing at that time that no forenics would be found to prove that.
If, as some people claim, she was lying as part of a pre-conceived plan to claim the window/shutters were found to be open - as proof of an abduction, then surely the McCanns would have made damn sure that some damage was done to the shutters and maybe a few scuff marks were made on the cills. And they would have certainly made sure no fingerprints of theirs were left on the window.
IMO we are being asked to believe that the McCanns were so stupid that it did not occur to either of them that if you are going to claim a forced entry - and this is what you are going to hold up as your evidence that a stranger had been in the apartment - then there would need to be some evidence to prove a forced entry had actually occurred.
I do not believe the McCanns were both so idiotically stupid that they would have overlooked that very obvious fact.
It was the McCanns first belief that a stranger had broken into Madeleine's bedroom via the window and abducted her, but as time went on they realised that it was not the only possible scenario.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 06:25:44 PM
My opinion of HJ's video is ... The window does not autolock. Correct. The shutters do not lock. Correct. From outside, raise shutter a little, slide window, reach in to pull strap to raise shutter fully. Correct. Shutter noise wakes child. Correct. Man never enters apartment. Correct.
Excellent so far. But then HJ's theory suddenly departs in the exact opposite direction of reality IMO.
Childs walks to window. INCORRECT. Surely this direction could not be more incorrect? Person, who opens window and shutter from outside, is an abductor. INCORRECT. Person, who opens window and shutter from outside, takes child. INCORRECT.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 28, 2013, 06:28:27 PM
You make mistakes and forget about things when you're in a panic. If it was staged you would be still be scared and panicking and mistakes are made.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 06:35:55 PM
My opinion of HJ's video is ... The window does not autolock. Correct.
No not correct
The window once closed shut is locked for all intents and purposes. You cant open it. It does not matter if it is locked with a key after. Same as the double glazed windows you get in the UK. You shut them and they are shut and you cant open them from the outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 06:37:02 PM
Indeed that is the first question anyone would ask - including the police. It's for that reason that I believe Kate McCann when she said she returned to find her daughter gone and the shutters and window wide open. And as any normal person would think imo - she assumed, at that very first moment, that someone had broken in via that window and taken her child. She had no way of knowing at that time that no forenics would be found to prove that.
If, as some people claim, she was lying as part of a pre-conceived plan to claim the window/shutters were found to be open - as proof of an abduction, then surely the McCanns would have made damn sure that some damage was done to the shutters and maybe a few scuff marks were made on the cills. And they would have certainly made sure no fingerprints of theirs were left on the window.
IMO we are being asked to believe that the McCanns were so stupid that it did not occur to either of them that if you are going to claim a forced entry - and this is what you are going to hold up as your evidence that a stranger had been in the apartment - then there would need to be some evidence to prove a forced entry had actually occurred.
I do not believe the McCanns were both so idiotically stupid that they would have overlooked that very obvious fact.
It was the McCanns first belief that a stranger had broken into Madeleine's bedroom via the window and abducted her, but as time went on they realised that it was not the only possible scenario.
Your reasoning is perfect, Benice, but it requires 1) believing the McCanns about the state of the window/shutters and 2) forgetting that they were in such a terrible emotional state that they couldn't possibly stage anything.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 06:37:57 PM
Why would you need a screw driver when the weapon is the crowbar? I didn't mean go armed with a gun if that's what made you laugh @)(++(*
What made me laugh was the double use of the crowbar. I happened to see a French video recently about how easy it was to open a double glass sliding door with a screw driver.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on December 28, 2013, 06:47:43 PM
Indeed that is the first question anyone would ask - including the police. It's for that reason that I believe Kate McCann when she said she returned to find her daughter gone and the shutters and window wide open. And as any normal person would think imo - she assumed, at that very first moment, that someone had broken in via that window and taken her child. She had no way of knowing at that time that no forenics would be found to prove that.
If, as some people claim, she was lying as part of a pre-conceived plan to claim the window/shutters were found to be open - as proof of an abduction, then surely the McCanns would have made damn sure that some damage was done to the shutters and maybe a few scuff marks were made on the cills. And they would have certainly made sure no fingerprints of theirs were left on the window.
IMO we are being asked to believe that the McCanns were so stupid that it did not occur to either of them that if you are going to claim a forced entry - and this is what you are going to hold up as your evidence that a stranger had been in the apartment - then there would need to be some evidence to prove a forced entry had actually occurred.
I do not believe the McCanns were both so idiotically stupid that they would have overlooked that very obvious fact.
It was the McCanns first belief that a stranger had broken into Madeleine's bedroom via the window and abducted her, but as time went on they realised that it was not the only possible scenario.
Agree wholeheartedly, Benice. Considering the number of challenging and intricate details they would have had to attend to in concealing their daughter whilst simultaneously staging an abduction, it is almost inconceivable that they would overlook something as simple and basic as this.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 06:48:49 PM
No not correct The window once closed shut is locked for all intents and purposes. You cant open it. It does not matter if it is locked with a key after. Same as the double glazed windows you get in the UK. You shut them and they are shut and you cant open them from the outside.
Are you basing your conclusion on photos or video of the mechanism of that exact sliding window in that exact bedroom? Or on photos/video or experience of some different model of sliding window (in a different apartment) which does autolock?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 06:49:41 PM
Interesting...how do you know this? If this is true it paints a very different picture.
From observation and logic
There would be no point in having any mechanism on a window if it did not open or shut a window....so what was was the point? Unless I have misunderstood you...
Interesting...how do you know this? If this is true it paints a very different picture.
They close automatically for security reasons when you slide them completely, it makes a noise and you can also see that the latch's position has moved.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 06:54:34 PM
They close automatically for security reasons when you slide them completely, it makes a noise and you can also see that the latch's position has moved.
Thank you Anne, sometimes I wonder if we have to explain why the sky is blue when its not raining and how do we know?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 06:54:53 PM
They close automatically for security reasons when you slide them completely, it makes a noise and you can also see that the latch's position has moved.
Are you describing the exact make and model of sliding window in north bedroom of 5A? Or some other sliding window in some other apartment?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 07:00:56 PM
The McCanns never touched the window/shutters/curtains of the children bedroom. This is what they stated. The last person to have touched them was the cleaning lady who used to make a serious cleaning once the week, opening the windows for fresh air and light. This lady was interviewed by the PJ. If she had left the window slightly open she would have told it, nobody would blame her for that. Finally forensics proved nobody passed through that window. Up to now nobody suggested the abductor used on a flying carpet.
So what ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 07:03:44 PM
Your reasoning is perfect, Benice, but it requires 1) believing the McCanns about the state of the window/shutters and 2) forgetting that they were in such a terrible emotional state that they couldn't possibly stage anything.
But how could a couple who were so cold hearted and unmoved by the death of their daughter that they were capable of disposing of her body like a sack of old rubbish, not be able to just as coldly sit down and work out what they were going to say about the shutters/window - which after all was going to be the proof that an abductor had broken in and was in fact the most important part of their plan.
Surely such people would not be panicking at all at the planning stage - why would they be? and they certainly would not have overlooked the fact during that discussion that at least some evidence needed to be present to prove a break in. So why didn't these cunning criminal masterminds provide some in readiness for the obvious inspection of the window by the PJ which they knew would take place?
Obviously I don't believe for one moment that any of the above happened, which is why I believe Kate told the truth when she said the shutters were up and the window was wide open when she found Madeleine missing and this led her to immediately believe that an abductor had broken in and taken her daughter. And that is when the nightmare started.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:07:35 PM
But how could a couple who were so cold hearted and unmoved by the death of their daughter
? Did you read "they were in such a terrible emotional state that they couldn't possibly stage anything" ? About your "capable of disposing of her body like a sack of old rubbish" see in his rog what Mr O'Brien heard on that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 07:18:09 PM
Thank you Anne, sometimes I wonder if we have to explain why the sky is blue when its not raining and how do we know?
The excellent video demonstration of the window mechanism by Moita Flores makes it as clear as a rainless blue sky that the window in this bedroom does not autolock when you slide it fully closed. After sliding it fully closed, then to lock it requires an additional conscious action, which is pressing the top "lock" button. If you slide it fully closed but do not afterwards consciously press that top button, then the window can be slid open from outside easily. All IMO but based on video of exact window by Moita Flores, he is an expert, please watch his demonstration.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:20:14 PM
The excellent video demonstration of the window mechanism by Moita Flores makes it as clear as a rainless blue sky that the window in this bedroom does not autolock when you slide it fully closed. After sliding it fully closed, then to lock it requires an additional concious action, which is pressing the top "lock" button. If you slide it fully closed but do not afterwards conciously press that top button, then the window can be slid open from outside easily. All IMO but based on video of exact window by Moita Flores, he is an expert, please watch his demonstration.
So why would anyone slide it to a close position but not flick the close/lock latch then?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 07:25:22 PM
The excellent video demonstration of the window mechanism by Moita Flores makes it as clear as a rainless blue sky that the window in this bedroom does not autolock when you slide it fully closed. After sliding it fully closed, then to lock it requires an additional conscious action, which is pressing the top "lock" button. If you slide it fully closed but do not afterwards consciously press that top button, then the window can be slid open from outside easily. All IMO but based on video of exact window by Moita Flores, he is an expert, please watch his demonstration.
Moita Flores ? Are you sure ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:29:16 PM
Sorry I was just trying to clarify how easy it would be to open from the outside. If it could not be slid from the outside then it would have to be forced. Quite an important point and why for me it paints a different picture. If it's not forced then it's been opened from the inside.
Benice - If staging and time allowed then I would think to show signs of forced entry but I would not think of making scuff marks.
Thats right buzz
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 07:30:17 PM
So why would anyone slide it to a close position but not flick the close/lock latch then?
Of course. What can happen (it happened to another mechanism of mine, more recent and sliding, not a tipping one, but the same principle of automatic lock when pushed completely) is the mechanism stops working properly : you just can't lock. I guess that in that case the cleaning lady would have warned the OC.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:31:33 PM
Going back to a few pages and the discussion about the curtains......were the curtains found open? Did the curtains fly open from a closed position to an open one or did kate go and open them?
Gerry Mccann statement 4 may
At 10pm, his wife Kate went to check on the children. She went into the apartment through the door using her key and saw right away that the children’s bedroom door was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains drawn open
gerry Mccann statement 10 May
The deponent ran into the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open to one side, the shutters almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE's bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cots. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scenario that she found when she entered the apartment.
kate Mccann statement 4 May
At around 10pm, the witness came to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed, but unlocked, as already said, and immediately noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Kate Mccan on c4 documentary
K: I did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it. I went to close it to about here and then as I got to here, it suddenly slammed and then as I opened it, it was then that I just thought, I’ll just look at the children and I could see Sean and Amelie in the cot and then I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding. and I couldn’t quite make her out. It sounds really stupid now, but at the time, I was thinking I didn’t want to put the light on cos I didn’t wanna wake them and literally, as I went back in, the curtains of the bedroom which were drawn,… were closed, … whoosh … It was like a gust of wind, kinda, just blew them open and cuddle cat was still there and her pink blanket was still there and then I knew straight away that she had, er, been taken, you know.
kate Mccann on Oprah 2009
Kate: Yeah, so I thought well I'll just close it over again, and as I went to close it over it slammed shut and I thought and it was like sort of you know a draught had caused it to shut so I turned behind me and I thought are the patio doors open and they were closed and I thought well that's strange so then I opened the door thinking I'll open it ajar a bit again and that was when I kind of looked into the room and when I just looked and it was quite dark and I was just looking and looking at Madeleine's bed and I was thinking is that her that I was looking for why isn't Madeleine there? And then in the end I walked over and thought oh, she's not in bed and then I thought maybe she's wandered through to our bed and that's why the door's open so I went through to our bedroom and she wasn't there and then I kind of see then I'm starting to panic a bit and I ran back into their room and literally as I went back into their room the curtains that were drawn over just "foooosh" flew open and that's when I saw that the shutter was right up and the window was pushed right oper. And that was when I just knew that erm someone had taken her. So I, I mean I ran to the window and I didn't know what I thought was going to see but I ran to the window and then I quickly hmm quickly looked through the wardrobes I had I suppose this temporary thought she was cowering in a wardrobe or something anyway she wasn't there and I just ran out and soon as...
Tapas group joint statement....Kate Mccann runs over and opens the curtains
But how could a couple who were so cold hearted and unmoved by the death of their daughter that they were capable of disposing of her body like a sack of old rubbish, not be able to just as coldly sit down and work out what they were going to say about the shutters/window - which after all was going to be the proof that an abductor had broken in and was in fact the most important part of their plan.
Surely such people would not be panicking at all at the planning stage - why would they be? and they certainly would not have overlooked the fact during that discussion that at least some evidence needed to be present to prove a break in. So why didn't these cunning criminal masterminds provide some in readiness for the obvious inspection of the window by the PJ which they knew would take place?
Obviously I don't believe for one moment that any of the above happened, which is why I believe Kate told the truth when she said the shutters were up and the window was wide open when she found Madeleine missing and this led her to immediately believe that an abductor had broken in and taken her daughter. And that is when the nightmare started.
100%. The window / shutter was the lynchpin of the abduction scenario at that point. Impossible for it to have been overlooked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:34:19 PM
Of course. What can happen (it happened to another mechanism of mine, more recent and sliding, not a tipping one, but the same principle of automatic lock when pushed completely) is the mechanism stops working properly : you just can't lock. I guess that in that case the cleaning lady would have warned the OC.
Or the burglar/abductor got lucky!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 07:37:06 PM
So why would anyone slide it to a close position but not flick the close/lock latch then?
Psychologically the closed metal shutter, which only has an operating strap inside, and no visible means of opening it from outside, makes the entire opening seem secure, to foreigners from a country where external metal shutters are not common. Neither adult specifically remembered pressing or checking the lock button on the window (see statements), which IMO pretty much proves the psychological "its safe" effect of the closed metal shutter. All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:39:35 PM
Psychologically the closed metal shutter, which only has an operating strap inside, and no visible means of opening it from outside, makes the entire opening seem secure, to foreigners from a country where external metal shutters are not common. Neither adult specifically remembered pressing the lock button (see statements), which IMO pretty much proves the psychological "its safe" effect of the closed metal shutter. All IMO.
Oh dont be silly, they wouldnt worry about an unlocked window when they left the back door open and couldnt even remember if the front door was locked or unlocked.....
@)(++(*
eta id like to see where in their statements they said they didnt remember anything re the window latch!!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on December 28, 2013, 07:50:10 PM
? Did you read "they were in such a terrible emotional state that they couldn't possibly stage anything" ? About your "capable of disposing of her body like a sack of old rubbish" see in his rog what Mr O'Brien heard on that night.
They were understandably in a terrible emotional state AFTER they found their daughter missing.
But the allegation is that they pre-planned it all and their friends colluded with them to tell all kinds of lies to the police to cover up the death of a child. People who are capable of doing that do not get emotional - which is another reason why I don't believe a word of it. They were 9 ordinary people who happened to go on holiday together and found themselves in a nightmare - not 9 raving psychopaths.
I have no idea what you are referring to re Mr. O'Brien.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 07:53:49 PM
The statements are easy enough to find, both adults say the window was closed but they are not certain if it was locked. BTW re the window not being autolocking, has anyone bothered to even watch Moita Flores video demonstration of the actual window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 07:55:39 PM
They were understandably in a terrible emotional state AFTER they found their daughter missing.
But the allegation is that they pre-planned it all and their friends colluded with them to tell all kinds of lies to the police to cover up the death of a child. People who are capable of doing that do not get emotional - which is another reason why I don't believe a word of it. They were 9 ordinary people who happened to go on holiday together and found themselves in a nightmare - not 9 raving psychopaths.
I have no idea what you are referring to re Mr. O'Brien.
Making sweeping allegations yourself now are you?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 08:00:48 PM
I thought that is he but maybe I am wrong if so I apologise, have you watched the video? Surely for this discussion of the window it would be a few seconds well spent to watch the demonstration of the actual window mechanism in Mr Amarals film?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 08:03:19 PM
The statements are easy enough to find, both adults say the window was closed but they are not certain if it was locked. BTW re the window not being autolocking, has anyone bothered to even watch Moita Flores video demonstration of the actual window?
Dumb
How would they know if they never touched opened the window shutters or curtains all week?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 08:20:36 PM
"closed but she doesn’t know if it was locked" 6/9/07 "closed though he is not totally sure if it was locked" 7/9/07
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 08:24:39 PM
Oh dont be silly, they wouldnt worry about an unlocked window when they left the back door open and couldnt even remember if the front door was locked or unlocked.....
@)(++(*
eta id like to see where in their statements they said they didnt remember anything re the window latch!!!
Weren't they dining like in their back garden ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 09:00:16 PM
They were understandably in a terrible emotional state AFTER they found their daughter missing.
But the allegation is that they pre-planned it all and their friends colluded with them to tell all kinds of lies to the police to cover up the death of a child. People who are capable of doing that do not get emotional - which is another reason why I don't believe a word of it. They were 9 ordinary people who happened to go on holiday together and found themselves in a nightmare - not 9 raving psychopaths.
I have no idea what you are referring to re Mr. O'Brien.
Perhaps "after they found their daughter was missing". But you should be able to admit that it was perhaps for another reason. I never made the allegation you're mentioning, Benice, why are you posting this ? If you read Mr O'Brien's rog, you'll be impressed by his description of Mr McCann.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 09:05:48 PM
What do others think would wake a child, if no-one agrees with me it was the shutter noise, where are the better theories?
whats the evidence any child was awoken on may 3
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 28, 2013, 09:11:51 PM
Children, not toddlers, wake up when they're anxious, and they can be anxious for many reasons. An unfamiliar place, the fear to be left alone are certainly factors of anxiety.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 09:12:42 PM
Direct evidence: none. But is it not reasonable to at least look at the possibility of waking up and going into another room. For example Mr Amarals theory has that happening doesn't it? I think that if the shutter was opened from outside it would be likely to wake, and more than that, cause to go into another room. Maybe I'm making it too uncomplicated, but is it possible that Mr Amaral by accusing (incorrectly IMO) the parent of opening the shutter missed out on a simplification and improvement to his theory? All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 09:58:54 PM
Direct evidence: none. But is it not reasonable to at least look at the possibility of waking up and going into another room. For example Mr Amarals theory has that happening doesn't it? I think that if the shutter was opened from outside it would be likely to wake, and more than that, cause to go into another room. Maybe I'm making it too uncomplicated, but is it possible that Mr Amaral by accusing (incorrectly IMO) the parent of opening the shutter missed out on a simplification and improvement to his theory? All IMO.
But your premise is speculation...that any shutter was opened.....Hence everything else is speculation
Goodnight though....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 10:12:19 PM
Unless you are proposing that all solutions which have someone being awoken by a noise and going to another room are ruled out, then it is an obvious and reasonable scenario to consider IMO. Seems like a likely thing to have happened IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 10:20:55 PM
Unless you are proposing that all solutions which have someone being awoken by a noise and going to another room are ruled out, then it is an obvious and reasonable scenario to consider IMO. Seems like a likely thing to have happened IMO.
present facts as a basis for further speculation then you can move on.....hypotheses based on speculation are quite void and time wasting imo nite dear
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 10:32:37 PM
Ok so no-one woke up, no-one walked to another room, its all speculation by armchair detectives and a dog
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 28, 2013, 11:08:59 PM
If she woke startled and went to another room....who made the bed?
The nocturnal phantom housemaid of Praia da luz, & she opened the window to let some fresh air in too.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 11:10:55 PM
The bed is not perfect, there are signs someone was laying on it, it is consistent with child sleeping on it. then being awoken by shutter noise/vision and running to other end of flat. All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 28, 2013, 11:14:51 PM
The bed is not perfect, there are signs someone was laying on it, it is consistent with child sleeping on it. then being awoken by shutter noise/vision and running to other end of flat. All IMO.
Had to log back in to say hahahah funniest post of the day, nite again now LooooooL and so sorry!!!
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 28, 2013, 11:33:51 PM
The first one would be accidental homicide. The second would be leaving alone a little child who could wake up out of anxiety to be left alone again, with the door open to go and search for her parents.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 29, 2013, 12:36:28 AM
Where have you seen that the patio door, the curtains and the stair gate were closed ?
Nobody but the group was in the restaurant after the Carpenter left. Many witnesses (like Mrs Webster, Mrs Oldfield and waiters) said it was not possible to see more than the dark top part of the sliding door and even so behind a plastic screen with reflecting lights.
They were quite possibly talking about their own apartments there Anne. The view of each apartment was affected by the lie of the land (hilly land) and by whatever shrubs were in the way.
You have seen this photo many times Anne and it is absolute proof that the apartment patio windows were in view. If the tapas restaurant can be seen as it can in this photo, then the reverse is true. Someone in the Tapas restaurant can see the patio windows.
(http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/notwviewfrompatio.jpg) for newcomers to this photo:
This shot is taken from in front of the main sitting room patio windows of 5A.
In the upper centre of the photo you will see a little of the swimming pool. Immediately behind the pool there are two large picture windows. These are the windows to the Tapas outdoor restaurant where The Mccanns (and we) ate. The Mccanns sat in the RH window just behind what appears to be a tree trunk.
As that place can be seen clearly from outside the patio windows, so the patio windows can be seen from the tapas table.
In the photograph, the bushes were in slight need of cutting. It is my belief that these bushes had actually been cut immediately before the abduction, in which case the view would have been better.
5A was unique, in that it had a street lamp immediately outside. Immediately outside but on the opposite side of the road. The light from this lamp illuminated 5A patio area thru the arched window at the side.
None of the other members of the tapas group had a flat that had a rear elevation that was illuminated as far as i am aware, so their windows would appear very dark. Almost certainly they were talking about their own apartments because before they knew about the abduction, there was no particular reason to look especially at the Mccanns apartment
Anne, you have seen this proof many times. WHY DID you try and make out that things were different? New peeps might have believed you.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 29, 2013, 01:10:26 AM
Here is a photo of the table the adults were sitting at, taken from 5A balcony that same night (photo by the PJ). Click to enlarge
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 29, 2013, 01:23:42 AM
Here is a photo of the table the adults were sitting at, taken from 5A balcony that same night (photo by the PJ). Click to enlarge
What a terrible photograph ... and how the distances are exagerated on all the photographs. It has been proven using GEarth that The Mccanns and Tapas group were only about 50 metres away from 5A
Suffice to say that Amaral himself said that nobody could have entered 5A via the patio because it was only 50 metres away and too overlooked by the tapas group.
He said this at the time when he first started saying that Madeleine had to have died in 5A, because there was no way in, or out, that was plausible. He actually stated that no-one could have got in thru the locked front door!
-- inappropriate comment moderated out --
It since seems to have been whooshed. Maybe when it was pointed out that it was possible to have got in using a key to the front door. Amaral must have felt silly at that point.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 29, 2013, 01:39:31 AM
If a stranger is opening a bedroom window from outside and the noise it wakes a child, the child will not walk up to them. I did a half-day course at the University of Common Sense
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 29, 2013, 01:41:18 AM
If a stranger is opening a bedroom window from outside and the noise it wakes a child, the child will not walk up to them. I did a half-day course at the University of Common Sense
If they know the person, they might.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 29, 2013, 01:52:41 AM
I would be straight out the room in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 29, 2013, 01:56:25 AM
Screaming Mum or Dad.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 29, 2013, 02:32:00 AM
Equally the person opening the shutter would run away into the night the moment he saw/heard someone was in. These two problems seemed unsolveable seperately. Why would someone go to another room not taking any possesion surely they would take something with? Why would someone else open a shutter and window from outside but then not enter but go away surely that would be utterly pointless? But when considered together it is easy solution for they mutually solve each other.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: peter claridge on December 29, 2013, 06:35:34 AM
When the claimed point of entry for the abductor was via the bedroom window McCann's said they had a clear view of the rear of the apartment, when they had to change the point of entry (for obvious reasons) to the claimed unlocked patio doors (original purpose to facilitate Oldfield's claimed check) they said they were looking the other way!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on December 29, 2013, 07:37:35 AM
He is impressively qualified. Like you as a teacher of Chemistry are no doubt qualified in Chemistry
Heriberto Janosch González. Psychologist and Educator, Master of Investigation in Psychology. Expert's Degree in Criminology. Madrid
[Also Mathematics teacher at a senior level, so logical].
Time to take the snear off your face Stephen. Heriberto has worked on a number of cases and is an expert.
He has an opinion on the case, no more, no less.
That does not make it correct.
It is merely supposition and no more than that.
He also assumes abduction as a fact.
Almost needless to say, that has not been proved.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on December 29, 2013, 11:14:18 AM
Perhaps people forget that under the window was a bed. Now if the child was asleep in this bed and someone opened the shutter and window it would almost make sense as to taking the child out (without her screaming of course).
BUT the burglar lifts up the shutter, opens the window and climbs in and nearly breaks his neck when he suddenly accounters a rather springy mattress and goes flying into the 2 twins cots all of this of couse without waking anyone up....or making a mess on the bed covers etc.....
Perhaps he was a trained Ninja......land and roll, land and roll....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 29, 2013, 12:07:30 PM
No man came thru that window, either in or out. That is proven by its narrowness, the lack of fibres, no scratches / marks on the sill .... and the uncrumpled bedsheets under the window. Also, the sill height is such that even Richard 1985, from Ozzie Bigfootie forum, would severely damage his goollies if he tried to stride in. It would take a very slim giant of 8 feet plus to possibly get in there by striding without a lot of pain.
As for scrambling thru on hands and knees or bottom first, forget it. That would only be used in severe emergency as an exit for the lifter.
I repeat no man or woman went either in, or out, via that window
And what is more, unless picked up under the arms, (like Heris suggestion) I dont believe that Madeleine went thru there either. Much easier for the lifter, having come in via the front door to exit the same way, carrying Madeleine.
The lifter scooped her out of bed with her head on his right arm and once outside passed her to Bundleman, who then had her head on his left arm ... as Jane Tanner witnessed. Almost certainly she was drugged in some way.
She was NOT DEAD, as some like to think.
Had she been dead she would have gone out in a bag hidden from view.
She was alive.
... and still is, I believe
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 29, 2013, 01:36:20 PM
No detective in the world can rule out death because those cadaver alerts cannot be swept under the carpet. It will have to be explained. Any detective worth their salt will have death as a good probability either as accidental or murder. Nobody knows if a bag was used or not. A bag could be used and then brought back so it's not missing or later dumped - they will have to check airport CCTV to identify the other main luggage bag.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 29, 2013, 01:58:07 PM
No detective in the world can rule out death because those cadaver alerts cannot be swept under the carpet. It will have to be explained. Any detective worth their salt will have death as a good probability either as accidental or murder. Nobody knows if a bag was used or not. A bag could be used and then brought back so it's not missing or later dumped - they will have to check airport CCTV to identify the other main luggage bag.
pathfinder, I know you are fairly new ... so you will not have seen the extensive discussions on the dogs markings. I am too tired to go over it all again. I suggest that you PM ferryman; he is an expert on the dogs markings.
They are NOT necessarily what you think they are. In fact the minute samples taken could have been from a huge percentage of tbe population. From memory, I think it was 50% of the population. I am happy to be corrected if I am wrong.
Also the dog markings cover other things than cadavars. IIRC they also cover saliva, tears, blood, urine ... so they simply are not safe as an indicator of death on their own
The dogs markings on their own mean nothing. They have to have forensic back up, and these didn't.
Sorry pathfinder, but you are barking up the wrong tree.
Just forget the dogs markings, they didn't have the necessary back up to mean anything.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 29, 2013, 02:04:17 PM
Yes Pathfinder,
The dogs indications mean nothing. Eddie was alerting to saliva or blood or dead skin cells or even the scent of dead pig.
It is just a compelete coincidence that apartment 5a was the only apartment to be contaminated with saliva, blood, toe nail clippings and pork scratchings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 29, 2013, 02:28:21 PM
The dogs indications mean nothing. Eddie was alerting to saliva or blood or dead skin cells or even the scent of dead pig.
It is just a compelete coincidence that apartment 5a was the only apartment to be contaminated with saliva, blood, toe nail clippings and pork scratchings.
The only expert here was Eddie the dog who did his job and he was very good at it.
"One coincidence, two coincidences – maybe they’re still coincidences. Any more than that and it stops being coincidence."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on December 29, 2013, 02:52:43 PM
No man came thru that window, either in or out. That is proven by its narrowness, the lack of fibres, no scratches / marks on the sill .... and the uncrumpled bedsheets under the window. Also, the sill height is such that even Richard 1985, from Ozzie Bigfootie forum, would severely damage his goollies if he tried to stride in. It would take a very slim giant of 8 feet plus to possibly get in there by striding without a lot of pain.
As for scrambling thru on hands and knees or bottom first, forget it. That would only be used in severe emergency as an exit for the lifter.
I repeat no man or woman went either in, or out, via that window
And what is more, unless picked up under the arms, (like Heris suggestion) I dont believe that Madeleine went thru there either. Much easier for the lifter, having come in via the front door to exit the same way, carrying Madeleine.
The lifter scooped her out of bed with her head on his right arm and once outside passed her to Bundleman, who then had her head on his left arm ... as Jane Tanner witnessed. Almost certainly she was drugged in some way.
She was NOT DEAD, as some like to think.
Had she been dead she would have gone out in a bag hidden from view.
She was alive.
... and still is, I believe
One of your more reasonable posts Sadie but who closed the front door?
I will add, why on earth would a stranger make off with a deceased child...not very plausible is it?
And furthermore, had her parents been involved why do it when everyone was up and about? Better to do it at 4am when even the cops were snoozing. I still believe Madeleine walked out of her own volition and via the front door as scented by the GNR search dogs. She was well used to going out that way every morning so she simply emulated the pattern which had been built up.
She followed the path west towards the covered walkway, again as scented by the dogs and this is where she was lost. Some reprobate probably saw her leave and couldn't believe his luck...he only had to wait the right moment before pouncing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 29, 2013, 03:11:54 PM
One of your more reasonable posts Sadie but who closed the front door?
I will add, why on earth would a stranger make off with a deceased child...not very plausible is it?
And furthermore, had her parents been involved why do it when everyone was up and about? Better to do it at 4am when even the cops were snoozing. I still believe Madeleine walked out of her own volition and via the front door as scented by the GNR search dogs. She was well used to going out that way every morning so she simply emulated the pattern which had been built up.
She followed the path west towards the covered walkway, again as scented by the dogs and this is where she was lost. Some reprobate probably saw her leave and couldn't believe his luck...he only had to wait the right moment before pouncing.
Problem with that is some reprobate would have to be around the oc at the time & he would have to be the type of reprobate who would never boast to anyone that he was the beast who snatched maddie.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on December 29, 2013, 04:09:50 PM
Problem with that is some reprobate would have to be around the oc at the time & he would have to be the type of reprobate who would never boast to anyone that he was the beast who snatched maddie.
But we know there were several individuals lurking around the vicinity of the apartment that afternoon and evening. One of the crèche workers even found a guy standing in the shadows in the dark.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 29, 2013, 04:28:10 PM
But we know there were several individuals lurking around the vicinity of the apartment that afternoon and evening. One of the crèche workers even found a guy standing in the shadows in the dark.
Evening ? No witness said so. Actually JW who lurked around with his baby from 8h30 on, only met an identified couple, while the Moyes who came back from downtown at 9 didn't notice any of those grotesque monsters depicted as spotty, toothy, squinty, creepy, etc.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on December 29, 2013, 04:30:39 PM
Evening ? No witness said so. Actually JW who lurked around with his baby from 8h30 on, only met an identified couple, while the Moyes who came back from downtown at 9 didn't notice any of those grotesque monsters depicted as spotty, toothy, squinty, creepy, etc.
Exactly. For a busy place it was like Marie Celeste except for the Tapas 7 doing the rounds.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 29, 2013, 04:45:10 PM
Evening ? No witness said so. Actually JW who lurked around with his baby from 8h30 on, only met an identified couple, while the Moyes who came back from downtown at 9 didn't notice any of those grotesque monsters depicted as spotty, toothy, squinty, creepy, etc.
Sounds like spongebob squarepants there......suspect number 32 I make it.....never n the annals of criminal history has there been a case with so many "suspects"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 29, 2013, 04:48:14 PM
Sounds like spongebob squarepants there......suspect number 32 I make it.....never n the annals of criminal history has there been a case with so many "suspects"
so many "ugly" suspects. No angelface/demonsoul, curious...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on December 29, 2013, 05:39:26 PM
Evening ? No witness said so. Actually JW who lurked around with his baby from 8h30 on, only met an identified couple, while the Moyes who came back from downtown at 9 didn't notice any of those grotesque monsters depicted as spotty, toothy, squinty, creepy, etc.
From memory I can think of two. One guy lurking on the stairwell and another having a fag in the bushes.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 29, 2013, 05:46:07 PM
Wasn't the guy in the stairwell Neil Berry?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 29, 2013, 06:07:58 PM
Nothing is impossible but to me it seems highly improbable that a burglar would then be followed the very same night by an abductor.
Is it improbable that an interrupted burglary attempt (in which the perp does not even enter, but flees, taking nothing and taking no-one) would happen on the very same night as a disappearance? I can see the logic which would make most people think no that is just too unlikely. But that objection is correct only if there is no connection between the two events.. But there is..The first event alters the situation so that the second event becomes more likely to happen. Nothing but IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 30, 2013, 12:03:06 AM
One of your more reasonable posts Sadie but who closed the front door?
I will add, why on earth would a stranger make off with a deceased child...not very plausible is it?
And furthermore, had her parents been involved why do it when everyone was up and about? Better to do it at 4am when even the cops were snoozing. /SNIP/-
Who closed the front door? Either the lifter or bundleman. The door could be opened, I think, just using a key and if the key were in a certain position withion the lock, it could be pulled closed by using that key too.
No need to touch the door at all, either in or out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 30, 2013, 01:10:25 AM
At a burglary in the block over the road uphill, also the occupant assumed because there was no sign of forced entry burglar must have had key. There was another burglary long ago a few miles outside the town where the occupant discovering entry via window but no physical damage even assumed burglar had kindly repaired shutter afterwards believe it or not (sorry all links gone for that now). It is important before assuming that a would-be intruder has a key, to make sure whether unforced entry via window/shutter is possible, especially when it is not certain (see statements) whether or not the window lock button was pressed . Entire post IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Victoria on December 30, 2013, 10:02:11 AM
All this oft repeated nonsense about her bed not having been slept in - is there actually a reliable source for this?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on December 30, 2013, 10:06:08 AM
I did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then, but I just noticed that the door, the bedroom door where the three children were sleeping, was open much further than we’d left it. I went to close it to about here and then as I got to here, it suddenly slammed and then as I opened it, it was then that I just thought, I’ll just look at the children and I could see Sean and Amelie in the cot and then I was looking at Madeleine’s bed which was here and it was dark and I was looking and I was thinking, is that Madeleine or is that the bedding. and I couldn’t quite make her out. It sounds really stupid now
"is that Madeleine or is that the bedding"
"It sounds really stupid now"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on December 30, 2013, 03:59:04 PM
" did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then"
Sorry that doesn't make sense. If you went inside you would take a few extra seconds to check if your kids were sleeping in bed? What kind of check is that - I'm not buying that rubbish. Where is that pink blanket now?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 30, 2013, 04:03:24 PM
" did my check about 10.00 'clock and went in through the sliding patio doors and I just stood, actually and I thought, oh, all quiet, and to be honest, I might have been tempted to turn round then"
Sorry that doesn't make sense. If you went inside you would take a few extra seconds to check if your kids were sleeping in bed? What kind of check is that - I'm not buying that rubbish. Where is that pink blanket now?
yes, thats what most parents do, have a peek, but according to gerry mccann he never once in all his half hourly checks for five nights in a row ever stick his head round the door...just listened from outside....what was the point in checking then?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on December 30, 2013, 06:30:59 PM
Not by a typical young child, unless the were a very sound sleeper?
Kate said Madeleine was very tired, she was obviously sleeping soundly until someone took her.
PJ said there was an indentation on the bed where someone had been sleeping.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Victoria on December 30, 2013, 06:32:44 PM
It's pretty clear from the picture someone was in the bed. Anyone who can look at that picture and claim the bed has never been slept in is warped in the mind, IMO. It's ludicrous.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 30, 2013, 06:36:08 PM
It's on the bed pretending to be Madeleine @)(++(*
What an unpleasant thing to say. The joke is in shocking taste buzz. 8(8-))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 30, 2013, 10:25:49 PM
Has anyone watched the Verdade video? Where the child actor wakes relaxedly for no particular reason, walks slowly into the lounge, and climbs on sofa to look out window. What is wrong with that scenario is this... If it was so dangerous to slowly and relaxedly climb onto sofa, WHY did the Verdade producer allow the child actor to do exactly that? The scenario is not quite right, and the reasons are that this scene in the Verdade video provided no reason at all for waking and leaving the first room, and provided no explanation how such a slow and relaxed exit would be dangerous in any way. The obvious clue was missed and ignored: Shutter noise. Entire post IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on December 30, 2013, 11:31:30 PM
Is there anyone here interested in the conclusion of the leading detective in the case, that someone woke up and walked from the bedroom into the lounge? It seems like an interesting hypothesis to me. But is there anyone else who thinks that is correct? Or is it all vague theories which don't deal with the most basic details like which room someone was in?. Is there anyone else who agrees with this part of Mr Amarals theory (walking from one room to another) as acted out in the Verdade video?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on December 31, 2013, 09:10:16 AM
Is there anyone here interested in the conclusion of the leading detective in the case, that someone woke up and walked from the bedroom into the lounge? It seems like an interesting hypothesis to me. But is there anyone else who thinks that is correct? Or is it all vague theories which don't deal with the most basic details like which room someone was in?. Is there anyone else who agrees with this part of Mr Amarals theory (walking from one room to another) as acted out in the Verdade video?
No I don't believe that part of Amarals theory, I don't believe she actually went to bed on the 3rd May.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on December 31, 2013, 10:16:49 AM
It's pretty clear from the picture someone was in the bed. Anyone who can look at that picture and claim the bed has never been slept in is warped in the mind, IMO. It's ludicrous.
Ah but dont forget this picture was taken later after lots of people had looked for the child, so the bed could have easily been messed up. I believe one witness said the bed did not look slept in and perhaps this is where that has come from.
I would agree with you, going on this photo the bed looks as though someone was in it. Also if you look the bed on the other side looks slept in too, or was it just messed up when people were looking under it perhaps for the child.?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on December 31, 2013, 12:22:24 PM
Ah but dont forget this picture was taken later after lots of people had looked for the child, so the bed could have easily been messed up. I believe one witness said the bed did not look slept in and perhaps this is where that has come from.
I would agree with you, going on this photo the bed looks as though someone was in it. Also if you look the bed on the other side looks slept in too, or was it just messed up when people were looking under it perhaps for the child.?
According to pictures the second bed was not messed up much at all. Maybe someone sat on it?
Colom I basically agree with what you are saying.
We cant really trust the photos of bed covers, soft furnishings etc., because Gawd knows how many people had searched in there. Gawd knows how many people had flopped in the beds in exasperation too.
But they are all we have and we have to base our assumptions on what we see and read. I expect that some attempt was made to re-arrange things to how they were when Kate found Madeleine missing. Also as the realisation dawned that a crime had almost certainly taken place, everything would have been protected as well as possible ... given the state of terror they must have been in
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on December 31, 2013, 03:54:41 PM
If someone bounded in and out of the window as has been suggested, how could the bed be otherwise?
but they didnt....no forensic evidence..the bed was a mess cos kate mccann slept in it the night before that pic was taken.....and he cleaner never got a chance to make it up....
Madeleines bed being slept in or not...who knows....indentations could have been from kate and her two other kids and madeleine sitting on it reading stories etc...as she tells us in her book that is what happened that night...i have no idea if madeleine slept in that bed or not....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on December 31, 2013, 04:26:07 PM
but they didnt....no forensic evidence..the bed was a mess cos kate mccann slept in it the night before that pic was taken.....and he cleaner never got a chance to make it up....
Madeleines bed being slept in or not...who knows....indentations could have been from kate and her two other kids and madeleine sitting on it reading stories etc...as she tells us in her book that is what happened that night...i have no idea if madeleine slept in that bed or not....
It was on this forum , was it yesterday? ... that the PJ said that there was a depression formed by Madeleines body.
Some of you might like to consider that Madeleines hot chocolate or tea, at tea time, in the tapas restaurant was already tampered with by someone, . Remember, this usually boistrous little girl was too tired to walk back the 70 odd metres to the apartment ... and had to be carried
Then she was too tired to go out to play on the slides in her jimjams; all three were ... and they usually went out for a pre bed play with the other children. Had they all been drugged with their tea ? - but Madeleine more than the others ?
Kids that tired/drugged would lie, in deep sleep, as still as dolls in their beds, until the effects wore off.
Is this the reason that Madeleines bed looked hardly slept in?
But the shape of her body had formed a depressioin so the PJ said. That is according to reports on this forum, was it yesterday? So it seems she was definitely there. Sorry if that scotches some conspiracy theories
Happy New Year everyone.
May this be the year that Madeleine returns, hopefully well May this be the year that all the missing PT children are returned May this be the year that the perp is taken to Justice along with his associates so that the children of PT can be safe again.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 01, 2014, 02:49:14 PM
"Non-abduction" theories have the window/shutter being opened (or claimed to be opened) not for entry/exit but to stage the scene to make it look like abduction. "Abduction" theories - some now have the window/shutter being opened by the "abductor" not for entry/exit but to to stage the scene to make it look like he came in/out through window to hide that he used door.
Both sides, radically opposed, yet united in the convoluted conclusion that the open window/shutter was staged?
I take the open window/shutter at face value, crucial evidence, not staged by "abductor", and not staged by "coveruper". And yes the witness is honest. All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 01, 2014, 03:01:59 PM
"Non-abduction" theories have the window/shutter being opened (or claimed to be opened) not for entry/exit but to stage the scene to make it look like abduction. "Abduction" theories - some now have the window/shutter being opened by the "abductor" not for entry/exit but to to stage the scene to make it look like he came in/out through window to hide that he used door.
Both sides, radically opposed, yet united in the convoluted conclusion that the open window/shutter was staged?
I take the open window/shutter at face value, crucial evidence, not staged by "abductor", and not staged by "coveruper". And yes the witness is honest. All IMO.
Crucial evidence of what exactly?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 01, 2014, 03:35:02 PM
What are the first details of your theory of after 8.30? Like what room do you start in then? If they include child being in room stated, and possibility that something woke someone up, and that someone may have gone to another room (as Mr A suggested in film), then I can say why window is crucial IMO. For theories with a different starting room or nothing waking no-one and no-one going to another room, then window not so crucial IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on January 01, 2014, 03:44:20 PM
What are the first details of your theory of after 8.30? Like what room do you start in then? If they include child being in room stated, and possibility that something woke someone up, and that someone may have gone to another room (as Mr A suggested in film), then I can say why window is crucial IMO. For theories with a different starting room or nothing waking no-one and no-one going to another room, then window not so crucial IMO.
48 55
Mr A hypothesises Madeleine woke hearing her father chatting outside and went over to the living room window
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 01, 2014, 03:47:02 PM
What are the first details of your theory of after 8.30? Like what room do you start in then? If they include child being in room stated, and possibility that something woke someone up, and that someone may have gone to another room (as Mr A suggested in film), then I can say why window is crucial IMO. For theories with a different starting room or nothing waking no-one and no-one going to another room, then window not so crucial IMO.
As both front and rear doors seem to have been left unlocked (though I accept that Gerry changed his story on this), either door would seem equally possible. Neither can one exclude the possibility of a key, however unlikely that might be.
The problem I have with the window as point of entry/exit is that the positions of the bed under window and the two cots in front of the bed make for a formidable obstacle course for an intruder entering a darkened room. That there appears to be no physical trace of an intruder in the room suggests to me that he did not blunder his way in or out of the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on January 01, 2014, 03:49:27 PM
It was on this forum , was it yesterday? ... that the PJ said that there was a depression formed by Madeleines body
Snip
But the shape of her body had formed a depressioin so the PJ said. That is according to reports on this forum, was it yesterday?
Sorry, dont have any pj file statements stating that...besides, how to determine when and who made any "indentation".....as I said I have no idea if she slept there or not
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 01, 2014, 04:09:12 PM
As both front and rear doors seem to have been left unlocked (though I accept that Gerry changed his story on this), either door would seem equally possible. Neither can one exclude the possibility of a key, however unlikely that might be.
The problem I have with the window as point of entry/exit is that the positions of the bed under window and the two cots in front of the bed make for a formidable obstacle course for an intruder entering a darkened room. That there appears to be no physical trace of an intruder in the room suggests to me that he did not blunder his way in or out of the window.
I agree completely that no-one climbed in the window, no-one climbed out the window, and no-one was passed out the window.
The explanation IMO is: petty criminal thinking everyone was out opened shutter and window from outside then , immediately realising someone was in, fled.
That is why someone opened the shutter and window but did not climb in and did not take anything. All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 01, 2014, 04:13:33 PM
Do you not think a petty criminal might have tried the door before the window? Far less obvious to a passer-by and easier to get in and out with the swag.
Is it not also improbable that a petty criminal/burglar would strike at almost the same time as whoever removed Madeleine?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 01, 2014, 05:00:28 PM
Do you not think a petty criminal might have tried the door before the window? Far less obvious to a passer-by and easier to get in and out with the swag.
IMO a petty criminal thinking no-one was home would assume all the doors would be secure against opening from outside. Anyway had a petty criminal tried the main door to the hall he would have found it secure. This is why many petty criminals go for windows, people are more likely to leave them unsecured. Tourists from less shuttered countries like UK do not necessarily realise that if you close the shutter completely and close the sliding window completely but do not also press the window lock button, it may look secure, but unauthorised opening of the shutter and sliding window (and I am referring to the exact models in photos of that bedroom) from outside without force is easy easy. All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 01, 2014, 06:05:17 PM
Is it more realistic to presume that Madeleine was drugged and then abducted by the person who administered the drug. Or is it more realistic to presume that she was in fact ill and complications arose whilst her parents were out at the Tapas? It would explain the "we let her down" comment a bit better given that both parents are doctors and should have known better than to leave an ill child unsupervised?
Interesting thought that she could have been ill and that this explains Kate's statement.
But what kind of illness would have caused tiredness then sudden death in a three year old?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: AnneGuedes on January 01, 2014, 06:53:01 PM
But what kind of illness would have caused tiredness then sudden death in a three year old?
Heart failure (coloboma is associated to this). http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253679/Parents-grief-daughter-Madeline-Campion-Marsh-4-died-heart-attack.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2014, 03:25:41 AM
Apologies for offending but what I was referring to was KM's comment about having to look twice at the bed. I don't believe the abduction theory therefore I don't believe this episode happened. Therefore if the blanket was on the bed it was Kate pretending the blanket was Madeleine.
The problem that I have with the bed is the side that is up against the wall. It is too perfect. On that side the covers have not moved away from the wall at all. I cannot understand how all members of the family could have sat on it prior to bed, then Madeleine slept either in or on the bed depending on which McCann version of events you choose to believe, then possibly more people "flopped" on the bed and yet the covers are still perfectly wedged down the wall side?
This is not indicative of any of my 4 children's beds and all 4 are made up against a wall.
That theory regarding Madeleine's physical state can also be read as the child being unwell.
Is it more realistic to presume that Madeleine was drugged and then abducted by the person who administered the drug. Or is it more realistic to presume that she was in fact ill and complications arose whilst her parents were out at the Tapas? It would explain the "we let her down" comment a bit better given that both parents are doctors and should have known better than to leave an ill child unsupervised?
Buzz, I doubt you will agree, but I think this abduction was planned like a military operation. Aftere all, several people reported a man watching the apartment I think it went wrong when the "pick up" driver chickened out cos he witnessed Gerry fairly near and realised that Jane T had witnessed bundleman walking off with Madeleine.
I believe the Pick up car had been parked on the amall car park opposite the Tapad reception and as the driver drew out, he saw what had happened and scooted off in the opposite direction.
I also think that because of what appeared to be detailed planning, it is quite likely that Madeleines and maybe the twins teatime food or drink was tampered with.
Madeleine being so exhausted at, was it, 5.30pm? That doesn't sound right to me. Then they were all too tired to go out and play in their jimjams ... on slides and exciting things ... with their friends? Most kids would overcome normal tiredness for that.
But I take your point about being unwell. All three of them tho?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on January 02, 2014, 06:09:35 AM
I agree completely that no-one climbed in the window, no-one climbed out the window, and no-one was passed out the window.
The explanation IMO is: petty criminal thinking everyone was out opened shutter and window from outside then , immediately realising someone was in, fled.
That is why someone opened the shutter and window but did not climb in and did not take anything. All IMO.
Too convulated and the window/shutter was in full view of the car park on the ground floor NAH I dont buy a burglar would even bother with it.
Anyway as to being put off by someone inside didnt the late Mrs Fenn nearly apprehend a burglar in her flat so who ever the burglar is he isnt very clever.....and left empty handed then too.
Pages and pages of shutter/window open/closed, patio door/front door, and the conclusion is ?
Ta Dah the child went missing....
Who would know the front and back doors were left unlocked?
Who would know the children were left unsecure and on their own EVERY night of a holiday?
Who would know the parents and friends routine?
................?
when thats been worked out then there might be some answers.......
Its LUDICROUS to believe a gang of child snatchers would know all these things. Why would they risk being caught. The flat was actually the worse one to try and break into as it was located by a common path, and car park, and entrance way to other flats.
Why would they risk taking a child from a holiday flat its far too risky.
As to watching routines. IF they were watching the routine they would have seen it changed every night. This would make it difficult to decide when to go in and take a child etc. Also why did the routine change so much on the 3rd May?
Why did the McCanns leave their children AGAIN after their own daughter questioned them about where they were etc....ok we have been told that this is probably a ruse, but what an odd thing to tell anyway why? It made them appear even more neglectful. OR did they just think by saying that then they were being totally honest and therefore could not have harmed their daughter. Either way it sucks, as if the latter how could you then leave your children AGAIN on their own what for?
A meal, a drink with friends was this so important? Why was it so important? What was the point to it, they were up and down most of the meal why were they up and down? ALL of it seems staged and rehearsed now to me.
Non of it makes any sense.
The only one thing I know now is for certain is a child is missing.
Either way the child had to go out of one of the doors.........but by whose hands no one knows.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2014, 12:05:28 PM
Too convulated and the window/shutter was in full view of the car park on the ground floor NAH I dont buy a burglar would even bother with it.
Anyway as to being put off by someone inside didnt the late Mrs Fenn nearly apprehend a burglar in her flat so who ever the burglar is he isnt very clever.....and left empty handed then too.
Pages and pages of shutter/window open/closed, patio door/front door, and the conclusion is ?
Ta Dah the child went missing....
Some of us, who have examined the situation, now accept that the front door was likely used ... but as a matter of principle, you will not accept that the front door is the most likely? I wonder why, with so many pointers?
Who would know the front and back doors were left unlocked?
To the best of my knowledge, it has not been established that the front was unlocked. That is a myth, I believe. Even if not double locked it seems it was on the latch .... so un-openable from the outside without a key, I think. Please stop spreading myths. That is creating propaganda
Who would know the children were left unsecure and on their own EVERY night of a holiday?
Insecure? I think not. Unless you include the patio door route , which Amaral specifically said WOULD NOT have been used by an abductor/ intruder
More Myths Colom
Who would know the parents and friends routine?
................?
They were watched . Several witnesses saw a man watching the apartment. Surely you knew that?
when thats been worked out then there might be some answers.......
Its LUDICROUS to believe a gang of child snatchers would know all these things. Why would they risk being caught. The flat was actually the worse one to try and break into as it was located by a common path, and car park, and entrance way to other flats.
You are wrong.
It was perfect at the front for someone to enter via the front door. You obviously haven't read previous threads where it has been thoroughly discussed. Have you been there and seen ?
It was the easiest and the most hidden with the front door, in a deep recess, tucked away out of sight of anyone. No light. Virtually pitch black there Colom. With a key, in and out in less than a minute. I have a blue disability badge cos of walking probs, but I have tested it ... and I could do everthing in less than a minute ... given a key.
Why would they risk taking a child from a holiday flat its far too risky.
Maybe this child had been selected?
As to watching routines. IF they were watching the routine they would have seen it changed every night. This would make it difficult to decide when to go in and take a child etc. Also why did the routine change so much on the 3rd May?
Only one night that it was different, when they trekked up to the Millennium restaurant , no doubt carry three kids. After that each night was the same. Where did you get your misinformation from?
Why did the McCanns leave their children AGAIN after their own daughter questioned them about where they were etc....ok we have been told that this is probably a ruse, but what an odd thing to tell anyway why? It made them appear even more neglectful. OR did they just think by saying that then they were being totally honest and therefore could not have harmed their daughter. Either way it sucks, as if the latter how could you then leave your children AGAIN on their own what for?
Your thoughts are convoluted Colom. Now that you know that Kate was totally honest and readily admitted Madeleine mentioning that she had cried, you are trying to make out it was a ploy to prove her honesty? Yeah .. Right ! @)(++(*
What a suspicious mind you must have to even consider such a thought. Nil points on that one Colom.
A meal, a drink with friends was this so important? Why was it so important? What was the point to it, they were up and down most of the meal why were they up and down? ALL of it seems staged and rehearsed now to me.
Non of it makes any sense.
Having been there and seen, it was like a meal ina gazebo in the back garden . The photographs grossly exaggerate the distances. In fact the whole area is very cozy and brilliantly laid out [by part owner, architect Robin Crossland?] to fit an amazing number of facilities in a very small space. Do go and see for yourself. You will be surprised.
The only one thing I know now is for certain is a child is missing.
Either way the child had to go out of one of the doors.........but by whose hands no one knows.
I agree. She went out by the front door, almost certainly. Gerry and Jez were talking, just 20 feet (over 6 metres) from the rear patio gate. No abductor would have risked going out past them. Additionally Jane Tanner sighted a man, bundleman ... and that confirmed that he left by the front.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on January 02, 2014, 12:44:38 PM
Put simply I can't understand why an abductor would go to the lengths of abduction from bed (which is rarer than chickens lips) when a simple snatch would suffice?
Sadie - I do not rule out abduction, never have. For me there is not enough evidence either way so with nothing else to go on I naturally fall back on the balance of probability. When using the balance of probability rather than irrefutable proof it becomes a whole new ball game because all of a sudden the McCann's suspicious activity comes into play. It's even evident in your abduction scenario.
If Gerry is outside with Jez while the abduction takes place, which is subsequently witnessed by Jane, which in turn forces the getaway driver to scarper, then why did Gerry nor Jez hear the shutters open? They were closed when Gerry did his check and with part of your theory also being that Madeleine was passed through the window to an accomplice, then that said accomplice was who Jane witnessed carrying Madeleine. So what happened to the passer and is the getaway driver the passer or now the 3rd person in the scenario? It's getting more complicated and less like a military operation (in fact it's more in keeping with Curly, Larry and Mo). So up to now we have 3 abductors complicit in the abduction of the worlds most famous missing child and what do they usually say on CW? Somebody somewhere must know who these people are? So 3 sets of relatives, 3 sets of friends to go at and still after all this time diddly squat even with a nice juicy 2.5m reward? >@@(*&)
Then's lets not forget whilst this bungled abduction is occurring we have a difference of opinion regarding which side of the road Gerry's on. He's in disagreement with both Jane and Jez which brings us back once again to McCann suspicious behaviour. You see there is no getting away from it. Oh and let's not forget Kate's take on it not being of relevance which side of the street they stood on which for me then begins to square the circle.
People tell lies because they have a need to cover up the truth.
The bits in bold.
I have always said from the beginning if she was abducted she was taken through the front door even on foot. I have always said I believe she knew who took her and was not scared or frightened, hence she didnt make a fuss. IF SHE WAS CARRIED out then that makes it hard for me too, as I believe she would have woken up and cried it was COLD out she would have woken up.
Now this causes me a few problems. Either the front door was UNLOCKED, or someone had access to a key. IF the front door was UNLOCKED why was it unlocked?
So who would have access to a key?
IF the child knew the abductor who would she be in contact with in the week?
IF the child was carried through the window like you said to an accomplice that would mean like you say 3 people probably involved. ~The traffic from the walking Tapas 7 was bad enough without adding another 3 people to the mix lol.
The big reward for me is the cruncher. 2.5 million is enough to turn thieves against one another, yet there was no takers. Very odd.
The fact the window of opportunity was so limited makes it almost impossible for the abduction to have taken place.
I believe IF she was taken it was 9.40 or there abouts as we can discount Tanners sighting which I thought ws totally bogus anyway....
No abductor is going to walk through lit streets......
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 02, 2014, 02:06:13 PM
If Madeleine complained where were you it doesn't explain why Kate and Gerry (who weren't even sitting next to each other at the table) had their backs to the apartment so they couldn't see the patio door. Very strange. If you look at this case from foresight instead of hindsight then things become clear. Unlocked doors being mentioned, crying episode all just before she went missing and they had their backs to the apartment so they couldn't even see if anyone was going in or out. Under those circumstances wouldn't you be facing the apartment so you could watch if it was unlocked?
"For a long while we would assume that the abductor had entered and exited through the window of the children’s bedroom, but it is equally possible that he used the patio doors or even had a key to the front door. Perhaps he’d either come in or gone out via the window, not both; perhaps he hadn’t been through it at all, but had opened it to prepare an emergency escape route if needed, or merely to throw investigators off the scent. He could have been in and out of the apartment more than once between our visits. That would explain the movement of the door to the children’s bedroom. At 9.05pm, when Gerry had found it further ajar than it should have been, he had pulled it back to its original position. On his arrival half an hour later, Matt hadn’t gone into the room, he had simply listened at the door, which he hadn’t adjusted. And yet when I returned at 10pm it was open wider once again. How had that happened?"
Yes indeed how did that happen. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 02, 2014, 02:34:36 PM
20 mph gusts that night. I have no idea if they could have moved the door. I rather think not, but I am not sure
Anyone have scientific type knowledge about that?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 02, 2014, 03:29:10 PM
That day was better weather than the other days. No gusts of wind moved that door IMO. You only have to look at Gerry's first statement saying the door was half-open which was the usual. So when Matt came in at 9.30 and found it half-open that's exactly the way it was left. Only in Gerry's 2nd statement the door was found to be unusual being found half-open. Before you sign a statement you read it to see if everything is ok. Contradictions like this and using the front door key and then changing it to using unlocked patio door stand out as big discrepancies to investigators.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 02, 2014, 03:39:45 PM
That day was better weather than the other days. No gusts of wind moved that door IMO. You only have to look at Gerry's first statement saying the door was half-open which was the usual. So when Matt came in at 9.30 and found it half-open that's exactly the way it was left. Only in Gerry's 2nd statement the door was found to be unusual being found half-open. Before you sign a statement you read it to see if everything is ok. Contradictions like this and using the front door key and then changing it to using unlocked patio door stand out as big discrepancies to investigators.
The simple fact they changed their statements is enough to arouse suspicion. It is inconceivable that these educated doctors couldn't remember which door they used.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 05:00:44 PM
The simple fact they changed their statements is enough to arouse suspicion. It is inconceivable that these educated doctors couldn't remember which door they used.
I don't think they changed their statements....I think there were errors in the statements due to the translators. the statements the Mccanns signed were in Portuguese..they don't know what they signed but as they weren't arguidos and extremely stressed they weren't unduly worried. The statements should have been audiotaped
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 02, 2014, 05:03:53 PM
I don't think they changed their statements....I think there were errors in the statements due to the translators. the statements the Mccanns signed were in Portuguese..they don't know what they signed but as they weren't arguidos and extremely stressed they weren't unduly worried. The statements should have been audiotaped
Yes, it would have been a definitive record and would have proved exactly what was said.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 02, 2014, 05:11:57 PM
I don't think they changed their statements....I think there were errors in the statements due to the translators. the statements the Mccanns signed were in Portuguese..they don't know what they signed but as they weren't arguidos and extremely stressed they weren't unduly worried. The statements should have been audiotaped
Isn't it a bit strange that Gerry later admitted referring to the wrong door then? Not the translators fault...they knew very well what they were signing. Next you will be saying he couldn't tell his front from his back. @)(++(*
The answer to the opening post is a resounding YES ...but the evidence is a resounding NO. There was no evidence of anyone entering the bedroom via the bedroom window. No prints or marks of any sort unaccounted for on the window, the shutter or the sill...no disturbed bedding, no furniture pushed over.
The only fingerprints on the window were those of Mrs McCann, and as Mr Amaral puts it, indicating that she opened the window. In the furore that followed she probably forgot she had done so, the rest as they say is history...just like the whooshing curtains which never whooshed for anyone else. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 05:30:04 PM
Isn't it a bit strange that Gerry later admitted referring to the wrong door then? Not the translators fault...they knew very well what they were signing. Next you will be saying he couldn't tell his front from his back. @)(++(*
The answer to the opening post is a resounding YES ...but the evidence is a resounding NO. There was no evidence of anyone entering the bedroom via the bedroom window. No prints or marks of any sort unaccounted for on the window, the shutter or the sill...no disturbed bedding, no furniture pushed over.
The only fingerprints on the window were those of Mrs McCann, and as Mr Amaral puts it, indicating that she opened the window. In the furore that followed she probably forgot she had done so, the rest as they say is history...just like the whooshing curtains which never whooshed for anyone else. 8)-)))
They knew what they were saying but they didn't know what was being written down...fact
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on January 02, 2014, 05:33:51 PM
Of course. The interpreter has to read it back to them in English.
makes no difference...mccanns don't know what they are signing. interpreter may have made mistakes..wouldn't stand up in any court...now if they had signed an English copy that would be different
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 06:14:18 PM
No but its obvious...statements written in portuguese
I tend to agree with you on that. I haven't found anything to indicate that the initial statements were translated into English and presented for signing after having being read. The point at that time seems to have been to officially launch more resources into the hunt for a missing child.
I'm not criticising the initial "interpreter", but she may simply have been the first person available to help (and no doubt did her best at the time).
The so-called "front-door" discrepancy was clarified in Gerry's second statement. As far as I'm aware, there was no video/audio recording to verify if Gerry had changed his story (which would seem highly unusual in the same statement concerning Matt's visit via an unlocked patio door) or whether there was confusion concerning the initial statement.
Without video / audio recording, how can anyone know?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on January 02, 2014, 06:49:46 PM
"For a long while we would assume that the abductor had entered and exited through the window of the children’s bedroom, but it is equally possible that he used the patio doors or even had a key to the front door. Perhaps he’d either come in or gone out via the window, not both; perhaps he hadn’t been through it at all, but had opened it to prepare an emergency escape route if needed, or merely to throw investigators off the scent. He could have been in and out of the apartment more than once between our visits. That would explain the movement of the door to the children’s bedroom. At 9.05pm, when Gerry had found it further ajar than it should have been, he had pulled it back to its original position. On his arrival half an hour later, Matt hadn’t gone into the room, he had simply listened at the door, which he hadn’t adjusted. And yet when I returned at 10pm it was open wider once again. How had that happened?"
Yes indeed how did that happen. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.
Is that a quote from KMs book? if so, is she suggesting the door was closed to, aka the to five degrees of almost closed when Matt when to check? At 9.30? but at 10 when ahe went it was back open again after GM had closed it?
Because according to his statements in May 07 and 08 it was half open/50 degrees open and on their documentary made two years before the book was published it showed Matt looking in through a half open door?..if it had not been open he wouldnt have seen the cots and the twins in them as he stated....just another piece of confusion woven in here.....maybe it was the wind after all.....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 02, 2014, 07:38:41 PM
Is that a quote from KMs book? if so, is she suggesting the door was closed to, aka the to five degrees of almost closed when Matt when to check? At 9.30? but at 10 when ahe went it was back open again after GM had closed it?
Because according to his statements in May 07 and 08 it was half open/50 degrees open and on their documentary made two years before the book was published it showed Matt looking in through a half open door?..if it had not been open he wouldnt have seen the cots and the twins in them as he stated....just another piece of confusion woven in here.....maybe it was the wind after all.....
Yes it's from Kate's book Madeleine. No she is suggesting that the door was open wider than half-open on her check. It was half-open when Matt checked - that's never been changed in statements. They say it moved further open on Gerry's check at 9.05 then he moved it back to ajar. Matt came at 9.30 and it was moved to half-open. When Kate came it moved wider again than half-open. 3 door position changes in an hour.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 02, 2014, 08:07:32 PM
No but its obvious...statements written in portuguese
Agreed, IMO it is translation error, and if there is an audio recording it will show that neither of these two individuals said they entered throught the north door for checks that night.
Anyway one of those two statements is null and void because IMO it is incorrect to allow someone to sit in on a formal police interview and not only that but also to allow contact communication (see book by KM).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 02, 2014, 08:21:03 PM
How can using a key to the door be a translation error to using the unlocked patio door? It's easy for anyone to say it's a translation error.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 02, 2014, 08:50:18 PM
How can using a key the door be a translation error to using the unlocked patio door? It's easy for anyone to say it's a translation error.
For example it could be that GM stated he used the key about 5.30pm, and maybe the context got mistranslated to using the key during the checks. And looking at the other statement, is it cloned from the above?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on January 02, 2014, 08:51:02 PM
How can using a key to the door be a translation error to using the unlocked patio door? It's easy for anyone to say it's a translation error.
There's a thread on this issue.
Without going into all of it again, I - personally - find it plausible that notes were made by the PJ officer and/or the "interpreter" that morning. In order to understand what had happened, it would make sense to me to ask and make notes as to the layout of the apartment. If this happened, it doesn't seem to be part of that interview (yet Gerry was the first to be questioned). If the officer hadn't asked, why not?
I really have no problem in imagining the chaos that first morning.
ETA: The point being is that notes of which door was which (back/ front) could have easily been mixed up at that stage.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 02, 2014, 09:00:26 PM
Those two 4th May statements are they not worded almost the same? Is it possible the two witnesses go into interview room together, first witness gives statement for both, then other witness is simply asked "is that correct?" "yes" and then its typed up as two individual statements? P.S. Sorry post withdrawn because statements were at different times (1115 and 1420).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on January 02, 2014, 09:02:50 PM
Without going into all of it again, I - personally - find it plausible that notes were made by the PJ officer and/or the "interpreter" that morning. In order to understand what had happened, it would make sense to me to ask and make notes as to the layout of the apartment. If this happened, it doesn't seem to be part of that interview (yet Gerry was the first to be questioned). If the officer hadn't asked, why not?
I really have no problem in imagining the chaos that first morning.
Totally agree Carana, also there was ongoing confusion during interviews about the doors - because some people referred to the patio door as the front door and the door overlooking the carpark as the back door - while others described the patio door as the back door and the other door as the front door. This confusion was mentioned by a UK police officer during JT's rogatory interview. Add that to the fact that GM would have been exhausted as well as traumatised during that very first interview - and IMO the scope for misunderstandings was huge. Personally I think an English transcript was given to him some days later - when he then noticed the error and put it right.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 09:32:20 PM
Totally agree Carana, also there was ongoing confusion during interviews about the doors - because some people referred to the patio door as the front door and the door overlooking the carpark as the back door - while others described the patio door as the back door and the other door as the front door. This confusion was mentioned by a UK police officer during JT's rogatory interview. Add that to the fact that GM would have been exhausted as well as traumatised during that very first interview - and IMO the scope for misunderstandings was huge. Personally I think an English transcript was given to him some days later - when he then noticed the error and put it right.
So no lying...just confusion...another myth bites the dust
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 02, 2014, 09:48:30 PM
No myth has been busted. The sliding patio door doesn't have a key! Only one door has a key so how could he get confused.
"Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, on the kitchen's counter. Right away, the lies started." (Amaral)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 10:05:45 PM
No myth has been busted. The sliding patio door doesn't have a key! Only one door has a key so how could he get confused.
"Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, on the kitchen's counter. Right away, the lies started." (Amaral)
so you are quoting amaral...a proven liar
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 10:08:21 PM
amaral never met the mccanns...al the information here is second and third hand
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 10:22:12 PM
Seems that whenever Gerry lies he's just mistaken. Very convenient.
Like I said earlier people tells lies because they have a need to hide the truth. The thing is people don't lie all the time so you cannot say because one lied over a specific incident they are always lying but like the boy who cried wolf it harms their credibility. It's important to find the lies then ask what truth are they trying to hide?
Jane and Jez both think Gerry was "mistaken"(lying) regarding the side of the road they were on. Gerry was adamant they were wrong. In this instance with 2 vs 1 it's highly probable that Gerry was in fact lying so the question should be why? What truth did Gerry have a need to hide?
or he wasnt lying...just mistaken...they are different
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 02, 2014, 10:30:20 PM
No myth has been busted. The sliding patio door doesn't have a key! Only one door has a key so how could he get confused.
"Gerald McCann himself goes as far as to say that when he came to see his daughter at about 9pm, that he does not enter through here [sliding doors]; even though he was in a hurry to reach the bathroom. Yet he chooses to walk the longest path [round gesture with extended arm], to open the door [main entrance] with the key. There is a report from Control Risks, the first private detective agency which was brought to the case [by the McCanns] in the very first days, where they state, after speaking with Gerald McCann and other witnesses in that group [Tapas 9], that the key that Mr Gerald McCann alleges to have used had in fact been left in the kitchen, on the kitchen's counter. Right away, the lies started." (Amaral)
Who is "he"?
Amaral wasn't there as far as I'm aware.
Any one of the three people (Gerry, the PJ officer or the "interpreter") could have got confused in that initial chaos.
- It doesn't make sense to me that Gerry would have insisted on going the long way around to then go on to say - in the same statement - that Matt had gone to check via the patio door which was unlocked.
- The other possibility, which I find more plausible, is that the PJ officer / or the interpreter were taking notes (patio door unlocked, main door needs key to open) and one of them got mixed up between which doors were taken to be the back and front ones.
I don't see it as any more complicated than that and the apparent contradiction was clarified during the subsequent interview.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 03, 2014, 12:15:09 AM
Well he is Gerry because it's his statement. This will come out in time if it goes to trial.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 03, 2014, 01:23:35 AM
These insults against a man of integrity I find difficult to understand. Yes there are mistakes in his investigation. But where have you seen him prompting a witness during police and press interviews? Integrity.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Sherlock Holmes on January 03, 2014, 01:25:31 AM
Heart failure (coloboma is associated to this). http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2253679/Parents-grief-daughter-Madeline-Campion-Marsh-4-died-heart-attack.html
Yes, this is one of the risks associated with Madeleine's condition.
But if she had died of a heart attack that night, a post mortem would have demonstrated the fact.
So her parents would have nothing to fear in being considered in any way responsible, and would have no reason to cover up her death.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on January 03, 2014, 06:54:13 AM
Surely if it were ever to come to a trial, it would be preceded by a new round of questioning and statements.
Of course it would..but nothing the pj gathered would be admissible...and as the lead detective has written his book...the whole thing is absurd... Im not 100% but wthout some really, really compelling evidence I think the book means a trial could never happen...well done amaral
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 03, 2014, 09:17:20 AM
Of course it would..but nothing the pj gathered would be admissible...and as the lead detective has written his book...the whole thing is absurd... Im not 100% but wthout some really, really compelling evidence I think the book means a trial could never happen...well done amaral
I would have thought such an outcome would suit you down to the ground - just what you seem to be striving for.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on January 03, 2014, 10:04:41 AM
Seems that whenever Gerry lies he's just mistaken. Very convenient.
Like I said earlier people tells lies because they have a need to hide the truth. The thing is people don't lie all the time so you cannot say because one lied over a specific incident they are always lying but like the boy who cried wolf it harms their credibility. It's important to find the lies then ask what truth are they trying to hide? ................................................
So what did Gerry have to gain by deliberating lying and saying he decided not to go in by patio door but instead decided to take the very much long route? What truth was he seeking to hide?
What possible reason is there for him to want the police to believe he did that?
And more to the point why didn't the PJ officer ask him why he would make such an irrational decision over which door he walked to - when the only reason for his visit to 5A was to check on the children? Why didn't it occur to him that no normal person would deliberately take the long way round and want to clear that point up with GM
So why didn't the PJ officer ask ''Why did you decide take the long route round to the front door- when it was so much quicker to just go up the steps and go in by the back door?
IMO the reason why the PJ officer did not pick up on that glaring anomaly was because at that first interview neither he nor the interpreter were familiar with the layout of 5A and somewhere along the line genuine misunderstandings arose between the three of them over the doors. If he had asked Gerry that obvious question I mention above - I reckon it would have been cleared up there and then.
For whatever reason the error first occurred - it was corrected at the next interview. Does Amaral mention that in his book? If not then IMO that is another example of Lying By Omission.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pinkblossoms on January 03, 2014, 11:01:34 AM
Jez Wilkins in his statement said he met him near the gate and that he appeared to have come down the steps from the apartment. What if that presumption of Jez was wrong and Gerry never actually made it into the apartment? This widens the timeline further. If the conversation with Jez and then returning to his meal took precedent then this would be a selfish act that he may have felt ashamed of, hence the need to hide the truth. The confusion with the door arises because in this scenario no door is entered.
I have no idea whether this happened or not. It's simply in reply to why someone would have a need to lie.
why would Gerry lie as to where he stood talking to jez,its abviously a mistake or maybe it was jez that was mistaken,why does it have to be Gerry ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 03, 2014, 11:05:59 AM
If the front door key was used then it was the nearest entrance and if it was then you have to ask yourself how it became the nearest entrance? Was he busy doing something else as soon as he left the tapas bar? That was the perfect time if you had to do something as everyone else was at the table and couldn't see him. As soon as Matt returned from checking at the shutters - the last one to arrive at the tapas bar - Gerry was gone which Matt found to be odd like a MAN ON A MISSION!
If Kate was so concerned when talking to Fiona at the table about whether to leave the patio door unlocked and the crying episode then why did she sit with her back to the apartment so she couldn't even see it from the tapas bar? Explain that one. They have a lot of explaining to do. There's contradictions and discrepancies everywhere in this case and when detectives take all these into account they know something very strange is going on.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on January 03, 2014, 01:01:29 PM
If the front door key was used then it was the nearest entrance and if it was then you have to ask yourself how it became the nearest entrance? Was he busy doing something else as soon as he left the tapas bar? That was the perfect time if you had to do something as everyone else was at the table and couldn't see him. As soon as Matt returned from checking at the shutters - the last one to arrive at the tapas bar - Gerry was gone which Matt found to be odd like a MAN ON A MISSION!
If Kate was so concerned when talking to Fiona at the table about whether to leave the patio door unlocked and the crying episode then why did she sit with her back to the apartment so she couldn't even see it from the tapas bar? Explain that one. They have a lot of explaining to do. There's contradictions and discrepancies everywhere in this case and when detectives take all these into account they know something very strange is going on.
Never thought of that, good thnking outside the box there!
There was no translation error as many tout.....to say you entered your flat using your key means one thing only, you entered via the front door as that is the only door you can enter usng a key....all the rest about mistranslations, him beng confused, translators, gnr, being confused etc etc is all just apologist guff
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2014, 01:07:34 PM
Never thought of that, good thnking outside the box there!
There was no translation error as many tout.....to say you entered your flat using your key means one thing only, you entered via the front door as that is the only door you can enter usng a key....all the rest about mistranslations, him beng confused, translators, gnr, being confused etc etc is all just apologist guff
just because this one sentence wasn't mistranslated doesn't mean others werent
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2014, 02:22:04 PM
So if Gerry did actually enter the apartment via the patio doors then he lied about the key. If he entered via the front then why did he go the long way? Was the patio initially locked when they left at 8.30. Then when Gerry checked did he enter via the front but yet leave via the patio? Jez assumed he'd come from the steps. Why would Gerry be mistaken about the side of the road they were on and why would it be so important for Gerry to state that Jane and Jez were incorrect?
You just need to read the files..its all there...exactly what Gerry said...word for word written in portuguese
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 03, 2014, 04:07:21 PM
In Verdade film reason for climbing up is hearing chat which is very close to beneath lounge window.
Moving the chat over the road and south would negate the climb up theory.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 03, 2014, 05:59:38 PM
That day was better weather than the other days. No gusts of wind moved that door IMO. You only have to look at Gerry's first statement saying the door was half-open which was the usual. So when Matt came in at 9.30 and found it half-open that's exactly the way it was left. Only in Gerry's 2nd statement the door was found to be unusual being found half-open. Before you sign a statement you read it to see if everything is ok. Contradictions like this and using the front door key and then changing it to using unlocked patio door stand out as big discrepancies to investigators.
There were 20mph gusts that night pathfinder. Official records posted earlier on this forum confirm that.
Do you have any scientific knowledge about gusts and how a 20 mph gust might have affected that door?
In this instance, I am asking for facts, not thoughts, please
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 03, 2014, 06:04:06 PM
Sadie if 20 mph winds were coming through that window then the door would be slammed shut and not open when Kate arrived.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 03, 2014, 06:05:05 PM
How can using a key to the door be a translation error to using the unlocked patio door? It's easy for anyone to say it's a translation error.
My understanding is that the patio door only locked from the inside. If that is the case it is unlikely that it would lock with a lose key, cos no keyhole.
We have travelled extensively, business and pleasure, and in our experience all the patio doors that only lock from the inside have a slider that locks them, just on the inside. No key
Please correct me if I am wrong about the door not locking from the outside, but I think I am remembering correctly.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on January 03, 2014, 06:21:26 PM
My understanding is that the patio door only locked from the inside. If that is the case it is unlikely that it would lock with a lose key, cos no keyhole.
We have travelled extensively, business and pleasure, and in our experience all the patio doors that only lock from the inside have a slider that locks them, just on the inside. No key
Please correct me if I am wrong about the door not locking from the outside, but I think I am remembering correctly.
The patio door did not have a keyhole thus no key, it locked only from the inside. Any patrons wishing to leave their apartment secure will lock the patio door from the inside before leaving via the front door which did have a key operated locking mechanism.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2014, 06:24:47 PM
Almost certainly none of them will have exactly what Gerry said...thats why uk police use audio recording
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 03, 2014, 06:30:00 PM
Looking at "dragons blood" photos in the files, IMO......
On the lounge patio door: many prints, of those the only identifiable one was of a GNR officer. On the bedroom shutter: many prints, none identifiable. On the bedroom window: many prints, of those the only identifiable ones were of KM.
The allegation, that the locations of KMs prints on the window are "indicating that she opened the window", is false IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on January 03, 2014, 06:30:34 PM
Hi all,
I am leaving the Madeleine case, and wrote here the reasons why ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com) ...
Even though I'd like to know if it is possible (and how) to obtain information about a Portugal mobile phone number. Directories, inverse searching and the like ...
Do you know how to proceed?
Thanks. Heri.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2014, 06:37:35 PM
I am leaving the Madeleine case, and wrote here the reasons why ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com) ...
Even though I'd like to know if it is possible (and how) to obtain information about a Portugal mobile phone number. Directories, inverse searching and the like ...
Do you know how to proceed? (the phone number is in the picture).
Thanks. Heri.
Deja vu..............
Proof of abduction ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2014, 06:42:28 PM
I am leaving the Madeleine case, and wrote here the reasons why ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com (http://espacioexterior.blogspot.com) ...
Even though I'd like to know if it is possible (and how) to obtain information about a Portugal mobile phone number. Directories, inverse searching and the like ...
Do you know how to proceed? (the phone number is in the picture).
Thanks. Heri.
Sorry to hear that you have given up Heri. Before you go I want to mention the following claims you have made...
"I am also almost sure of the following: (a) Jane Tanner saw the abductor with Madeleine at about 21:50; (b) members of the Smith family saw the abductor with Madeleine at about 22:00; (c) the abduction was not planned, it was a burglary that gone wrong; (d) the abductor opened Madeleine's room window from the outside; (e) at least an Ocean Club employee was involved in the abduction (see "A QUESTION" in the right column)."
Firstly, (a) Jane never claimed to have seen any abductor at 9.50pm. (b) There is no evidence that any member of the Smith family saw an abductor, they saw a man carrying a child. (c) Burglars are petty thieves and as such are only interested in items which they can readily be disposed of. Secondly, burglars are not in the habit of stealing children. If Madeleine was abducted it was as a result of a planned operation. (d) There is no evidence one way or another as to who opened the children's bedroom window or how. (e) Your contention that a member of the staff at Ocean Club was involved is pure speculation, without evidence it is meaningless.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on January 03, 2014, 06:48:27 PM
It's no evidence at all, seeing a child being carried, pure supposition which would be laughed out of court.
whatever the court thought of it ..it would be classed as evidence
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 03, 2014, 07:03:17 PM
Certainly evidence that a man was carrying a child that night, but that's as far as it goes. No definite connection with Madeleine.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 03, 2014, 07:10:54 PM
RE tracing mobile phone number, it does not come up in search engines, to search further is difficult without knowing the context for example the files page number in which it occured. BTW Heriberto your method of opening window and shutter from outside without force is very good, also the window not autolocking, also your deduction that this is a petty thief, also your having this man never climb in, all those points are correct IMO. However if I were awoken in that correct scenario I would run in exactly opposite direction to what you propose.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2014, 07:21:52 PM
RE tracing mobile phone number, it does not come up in search engines, to search further is difficult without knowing the context for example the files page number in which it occured. BTW Heriberto your method of opening window and shutter from outside without force is very good, also the window not autolocking, also your deduction that this is a petty thief, also your having this man never climb in, all those points are correct IMO. However if I were awoken in that correct scenario I would run in exactly opposite direction to what you propose.
If you were an teenager or adult, with nous,perhaps,a child of three woudnt be aware of stranger danger.....and not sure where this whole idea of running off is going....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 03, 2014, 08:22:19 PM
...well going out that bedroom door you have bathroom on right (unlikely IMO), other bedroom straight ahead, or lounge/diner left.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on January 03, 2014, 08:24:12 PM
whatever the court thought of it ..it would be classed as evidence
Yes, evidence of an unknown man carrying a female child. The inference that it was Madeleine is just that, the sighting means very little on its own.
The opening post title is interesting. My own view is that an intruder could very well have pushed up the shutter, slid the unlocked window to the side and climbed in. Problem is that it is an awkward manoeuvre for one person to do on his own. It can be done by one person but in doing so they will leave a number of marks including prints and scuff marks. As far as I am aware no such marks were ever found on the window or the shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 03, 2014, 08:28:53 PM
Yes it is...not good evidence but it is evidence...witness statements are also evidence
You mean the same as the dogs?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on January 03, 2014, 09:55:20 PM
John, I am not giving up. I think it is time to wait for the new data collected by Scotland Yard Operation Grange and Oporto Polícia Judiciária Team to be public (both secret now, the press are only rehashing old "news").
SY are following the "stranger abductor theory" (people monitoring the apartment and/or the burglaries, and the Smith family sighting), and said that the McCann and their seven adult friends are not suspects or persons of interest. PJ Oporto are also following the "stranger abductor theory", ie, the McCann and friends do not seem to be persons of interest or suspects to them.
I agree with SY, except for the "British tourist" allegation, IMO Jane saw the abductor. And about PJ Oporto, I do not know what line of inquiry they are following, so I have no opinion by now (but I trust in Helena Monteiro team).
Pegasus, I am only asking for a web page (directory or inverse search) where you can put a Portugal mobile phone number (no matter the context) and find additional information about ...
Thanks to all of you ...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on January 03, 2014, 09:57:49 PM
John, I am not giving up. I think it is time to wait for the new data collected by Scotland Yard Operation Grange and Oporto Polícia Judiciária Team to be public (both secret now, the press are only rehashing old "news").
SY are following the "stranger abductor theory" (people monitoring the apartment and/or the burglaries, and the Smith family sighting), and said that the McCann and their seven adult friends are not suspects or persons of interest. PJ Oporto are also following the "stranger abductor theory", ie, the McCann and friends do not seem to be persons of interest or suspects to them.
I agree with SY, except for the "British tourist" allegation, IMO Jane saw the abductor. And about PJ Oporto, I do not know what line of inquiry they are following, so I have no opinion.
Pegasus, I am only asking for a web page (directory or inverse search) where you can put a Portugal mobile phone number (no matter the context) and find additional information about ...
Thanks to all of you ...
So you think jane saw the abductor/tannerman at 2150 but somehow mixed up in her head it was when she was going past gerry nd jez at 21 15?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Heriberto Janosch on January 03, 2014, 10:06:28 PM
I read your latest blog but it didnt answer the question why you thnk tanner saw the man at 21 50
The blog has eleven or so posts in English about the case, all related between them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 03, 2014, 10:37:48 PM
@Heriberto IMO there is no website which traces all PT mobile numbers. Sometimes if the context is known it is possible to search stuff which does not get indexed on search engines (like many numbers in present in images of pages of the PJ files).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on January 04, 2014, 12:17:55 AM
John, I am not giving up. I think it is time to wait for the new data collected by Scotland Yard Operation Grange and Oporto Polícia Judiciária Team to be public (both secret now, the press are only rehashing old "news").
SY are following the "stranger abductor theory" (people monitoring the apartment and/or the burglaries, and the Smith family sighting), and said that the McCann and their seven adult friends are not suspects or persons of interest. PJ Oporto are also following the "stranger abductor theory", ie, the McCann and friends do not seem to be persons of interest or suspects to them.
I agree with SY, except for the "British tourist" allegation, IMO Jane saw the abductor. And about PJ Oporto, I do not know what line of inquiry they are following, so I have no opinion by now (but I trust in Helena Monteiro team).
Pegasus, I am only asking for a web page (directory or inverse search) where you can put a Portugal mobile phone number (no matter the context) and find additional information about ...
Thanks to all of you ...
Indeed, the Press are rehashing old news and that is exactly what the Daily Mail are promoting tonight. They must think people are stupid, its not as Redwood and his team are going to tell them anything which they can plaster all over the place. The Press have a lot to answer for in this case and it isn't getting any better. The crap which these newspapers are publishing is astonishing, one has to wonder who is promoting it and why?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Redblossom on January 04, 2014, 10:14:43 PM
None other than pinky pie face.....its what he gets paid for...not come across any other insidious paid personage in this regard
LOL at this pic
http://clarencemitchell.webs.com/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on January 04, 2014, 10:20:21 PM
Yes a child would hide behind a sofa if they were scared. But nobody went through the window?
IMO absolutely no-one went in or out the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2014, 12:35:17 PM
It doesn't actually matter how anyone got in or out. There were always more ways than one. Heaven knows what anyone thought at the time while in a state of panic.
"Jemmied" is simply a Glaswegian colloquialism for forcing entry. It doesn't necessarily mean that a Jemmy was used.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 05, 2014, 03:32:19 PM
So what are you saying - the burglar didn't enter the apartment? So this open window and burglar had nothing to do with Madeleine's disappearance? I think everything connects from the daily routine change with the kids that evening to the Smithman sighting at 10pm who was carrying Madeleine IMO. They should concentrate on this sighting 100% and check phone records for people who were in that area where he was sighted for possible eye witnesses. I believe they need to identify that man to have any chance of cracking this case.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 05, 2014, 03:47:13 PM
Q. So what are you saying - the burglar didn't enter the apartment? A. Correct IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on January 05, 2014, 03:50:06 PM
The crime scene indicates that a person intending to burgle the apartment opened the window and shutter from outside, and did not enter.
It doesn't actually. A shutter pushed up from the outside doesn't stay up. That in itself is basic to understanding the forensics in this case. Like you, the McCanns didn't know this at the time which explains a lot.
To repeat...a shutter will only remain up if pulled up "using the internal strap'.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2014, 04:14:43 PM
It doesn't actually. A shutter pushed up from the outside doesn't stay up. That in itself is basic to understanding the forensics in this case. Like you, the McCanns didn't know this at the time which explains a lot.
To repeat...a shutter will only remain up if pulled up "using the internal strap'.
Not true if the perpetrator is able to open the window and access the pull cord. Not that I think that this is what happened. But I can no longer be bothered to go into what I think happened. And it doesn't matter anyway.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2014, 04:27:04 PM
So how do you force a window without a nail bar Eleanor?
There is a video showing PeterMac raising the shutter from outside, by dint of his own hands. After that you just need to open the window and pull the internal strap.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 05, 2014, 04:41:42 PM
The would-be petty thief commences gaining entry only because he thinks no-one is home IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on January 05, 2014, 05:15:27 PM
I will repeat this advice from my own professional experience of those I have previously come across.
An opportunist thief normally only operates in the daylight, he or she sees an opportunity and goes for it. By virtue of it being dark on the night Madeleine disappeared I believe we can rule them out.
A burglar is not stupid. He or she will not jeopardise their own safety if there is a chance they might be disturbed. They do not rob on an ad hoc basis, each targeted property is cased carefully in order to establish who is normally there, at what time and to establish if it is worth the risk.
A burglar would not attempt a robbery if there are children in a property for obvious reasons, it just isn't worth the risk. Any reputable burglar would not therefore have attempted to enter the McCann apartment when they knew the three children were inside. They would most certainly not have used their bedroom window... a no brainer.
If someone targeted that apartment they did so as an abductor and had most probably been watching the movements there for a number of days. This is one reason why I would rule Hewlett out of the equation since he did not have the time to do so.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 05, 2014, 05:38:47 PM
The apartment looked like no-one was in. Lights (except one dim light) were turned out when adults went out. From inside comes no noise, no voices, no shower noise, no TV noise. If I was a petty thief I would certainly assume everyone was out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on January 05, 2014, 07:02:44 PM
And then wedge it with your jemmy! Joking aside I'm actually with you on this Eleanor. My original comment was in relation to the other thread were it was argued that Brian lied and did not get the word from Gerry (even though he said he did) who is Glaswegian.
You only need to live in Glasgow for half a minute to know what it means. And Jemmies are quite big, you know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 05, 2014, 11:16:28 PM
Q. So what are you saying - the burglar didn't enter the apartment? A. Correct IMO.
The front door was used for entry and departure almost without doubt. Madeleine went out that way too ! The front door was so hidden within its recess and in virtaully pitch blackness that it was Gods gift to anyone wanting to enter. No-one had view of that door. No one passed by. No light on it.
A powerful group is trying to take attention away from the front door ... and the only reason that I can think of , is that it WAS USED AS THE WAY IN .... and also that it gives the game away that someone from OC was likely involved in providing the key
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 06, 2014, 09:00:46 PM
Mr Amarals film has video footage in which a young actress first wakes up, and then goes into the lounge. The footage IMO provides no plausible reasons why the actress did these two things. No waking noise of shutter being opened from outside, no seeing silhouette outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 06, 2014, 11:08:16 PM
Imo the 5 fingerprints of KM were on the interior surface of the GLASS of the window. P.S. Unless anyone has a better translation of "vidro" ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on January 06, 2014, 11:21:50 PM
If there was a burglar or a petty thief he would not have any reason to take Madeleine!
Why would he take he?
Can anyone suggest any logical reason?
Plus, nothing was taken from the property!
IMO that person that night came for Madeleine! Not for any other reason!
Unless: 1. Madeleine could recognise the person 2. Madeleine was screaming and was accidentally killed by a burglar
There is one more option.. and that is like the case of Natali Holloway.. that a teenage person accidentally killed Madeleine, while she was on the street and then the protector of this young person came in, opened the window and made it look like a burglary.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Estuarine on January 06, 2014, 11:33:59 PM
Imo the 5 fingerprints of KM were on the interior surface of the GLASS of the window. P.S. Unless anyone has a better translation of "vidro" ?
Wouldn't that be quite normal? It was her apartment!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on January 07, 2014, 12:10:23 AM
Not when the window and shutters had been closed all week. If she was touching it after the fact then she was contaminating the crime scene as it was the exit she thought her daughter had left via. The other possibility is that she opened the window herself.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 07, 2014, 01:51:26 AM
5 prints on the glass ("vidro") are consistent with leaning on an already-open window to look out IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 07, 2014, 11:25:38 PM
5 prints on the glass ("vidro") are consistent with leaning on an already-open window to look out IMO.
Good point pegasus. for normal opening and closing, the whole hand would not be needed. Also most people would slide a window open or clsed using the frame.
Seems kate braced herself against the glass with her left hand and leaned right out. Presumably the right hand was braced against the wall on the RH side
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on January 07, 2014, 11:38:32 PM
Good point pegasus. for normal opening and closing, the whole hand would not be needed. Also most people would slide a window open or clsed using the frame.
Seems kate braced herself against the glass with her left hand and leaned right out. Presumably the right hand was braced against the wall on the RH side
Seems and presumably????
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on January 07, 2014, 11:43:19 PM
The front door was used for entry and departure almost without doubt. Madeleine went out that way too ! The front door was so hidden within its recess and in virtaully pitch blackness that it was Gods gift to anyone wanting to enter. No-one had view of that door. No one passed by. No light on it.
A powerful group is trying to take attention away from the front door ... and the only reason that I can think of , is that it WAS USED AS THE WAY IN .... and also that it gives the game away that someone from OC was likely involved in providing the key
"The front door was used for entry and departure almost without doubt"
That assertion is entirely unjustified
The 'doubt' that exists, regarding the front door being used ( with the use of an imagined spare key ) is that there is absolutely no evidence to support it
You can post endlessly about 'recesses' and how the front door was 'hidden' from view, but without actual evidence, there is, quite simply, nothing to suggest that the front door was used as a point of entry at all ...let alone the preposterous claim that it was used 'almost without doubt'
You are as free to make unsubstantiated 'guesses' sadie, but you really should not present them as anything other than that
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 07, 2014, 11:46:06 PM
"The front door was used for entry and departure almost without doubt"
That assertion is entirely unjustified
The 'doubt' that exists, regarding the front door being used ( with the use of an imagined spare key ) is that there is absolutely no evidence to support it
You can post endlessly about 'recesses' and how the front door was 'hidden' from view, but without actual evidence, there is, quite simply, nothing to suggest that the front door was used as a point of entry at all ...let alone the preposterous claim that it was used 'almost without doubt'
You are as free to make unsubstantiated 'guesses' sadie, but you really should not present them as anything other than that
I find it very interesting that YOU especially do not want the front door to have been used.
Why is that, Icabod ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 07, 2014, 11:49:51 PM
I find it very interesting that YOU especially do not want the front door to have been used.
Why is that, Icabod ?
Do you think Icabod abducted her? He really doesn't seem the type to me. Now me however, that is a different kettle of fish, everyone knows I smoke hashish & I stole an argos pen once so my criminal profile is much better suited.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on January 07, 2014, 11:50:47 PM
Sadie, it is not a question of what we 'want' to have happened ... it is a question of what the evidence shows us 'may' have happened
There is simply no evidence at all to suggest the front door was used as a point of entry
And as there is no evidence of an abductor the front door thesis requires invention of an abductor, abduction & a key. But the death scenario however requires no such invention, only the possible actions of unimagined people.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 07, 2014, 11:56:54 PM
Sadie, it is not a question of what we 'want' to have happened ... it is a question of what the evidence shows us 'may' have happened
There is simply no evidence at all to suggest the front door was used as a point of entry
There likely wouldn't be any. Key in the lock, turn it and push the door open using the key. Lift Madeleine (?drugged) and walk out the front door. Pull it to using the key.
No evidence.
But there is boundless evidence that the front door was a burglars delight.
Nobody passing Totally hidden in a recess In the darkest spot No-one could see.
doesn't take too many brain cells to see the likelyhood of it having been the way in and the way out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on January 08, 2014, 12:02:36 AM
Sadie, it is not a question of what we 'want' to have happened ... it is a question of what the evidence shows us 'may' have happened
There is simply no evidence at all to suggest the front door was used as a point of entry
IMO It is perfectly possible that a person can open and close a door without leaving any evidence. Especially if they had a key. What evidence would you expect to be found?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on January 08, 2014, 12:04:34 AM
There likely wouldn't be any. Key in the lock, turn it and push the door open using the key. Lift Madeleine (?drugged) and walk out the front door. Pull it to using the key.
No evidence.
But there is boundless evidence that the front door was a burglars delight.
Nobody passing Totally hidden in a recess In the darkest spot No-one could see.
doesn't take too many brain cells to see the likelyhood of it having been the way in and the way out.
So you should really say that there is a 'possibility' that the front door was used as a point of entry ... someone, perhaps, having got hold of a key somehow
That, I would take no exception to
It's just that when you present an abstract idea as 'fact', ( almost without doubt ), that I feel there is risk of creating myths
The idea that someone used a duplicate key to enter apartment 5A via the front door really is nothing more than that, afterall ... an unsubstanciated, abstract idea, based on nothing more than imagination
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 08, 2014, 12:05:00 AM
And as there is no evidence of an abductor the front door thesis requires invention of an abductor, abduction & a key. But the death scenario however requires no such invention, only the possible actions of unimagined people.
Well it's like this Icabod
1) SY believe there was an abduction 2) Seems that the PT AG is not against an abduction ... nothing against The Mccanns 3) All the Tapas group. in their varying ways go for an abduction 4) Jane Tanner witnessed a man walking fast in the direction away from 5A, carrying a young child. 5) The Smiths witnessed a somewhat similar man carrying a young child
Ony Amaral and his cahoots seem to think differently ... apart from some Conspiracy theorists, like you
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 08, 2014, 12:12:17 AM
So you should really say that there is a 'possibility' that the front door was used as a point of entry ... someone, perhaps, having got hold of a key somehow
That, I would take no exception to
It's just that when you present an abstract idea as 'fact', ( almost without doubt ), that I feel there is risk of creating myths
The idea that someone used a duplicate key to enter apartment 5A via the front door really is nothing more than that, afterall ... an unsubstanciated, abstract idea, based on nothing more than imagination
No you are wriong.
I leave an element of doubt
But I have noticed that YOU especially cannot come to terms with the likelyhood of the front door being used
And that is because it shows Amarals ideas are flawed. When he siad that no-body could get in to 5A through the front door, it was a nonsense. There was always the chance that a key had been used.
Have you forgotten, so soon, the two burglaries in OC during the 2 or 3 weeks before Madeleine was taken. Both via locked front doors? How do you think they happened?
Was the burglar Harry Potter, or another wizard, do you think?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on January 08, 2014, 12:17:54 AM
1) SY believe there was an abduction 2) Seems that the PT AG is not against an abduction ... nothing against The Mccanns 3) All the Tapas group. in their varying ways go for an abduction 4) Jane Tanner witnessed a man walking fast in the direction away from 5A, carrying a young child. 5) The Smiths witnessed a somewhat similar man carrying a young child
Ony Amaral and his cahoots seem to think differently ... apart from some Conspiracy theorists, like you
I don't 'do' conspiracy theories sadie
I don't buy into 'elites' or an unamed 'powerful' man being behind this unfortunate child's disappearance ... that s the stuff of conspiracies
I believe the true explanation is probably quite simple ... and awfully sad
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on January 08, 2014, 12:24:53 AM
But I have noticed that YOU especially cannot come to terms with the likelyhood of the front door being used
And that is because it shows Amarals ideas are flawed. When he siad that no-body could get in to 5A through the front door, it was a nonsense. There was always the chance that a key had been used.
Have you forgotten, so soon, the two burglaries in OC during the 2 or 3 weeks before Madeleine was taken. Both via locked front doors? How do you think they happened?
Was the burglar Harry Potter, or another wizard, do you think?
I am no Amaral defender ... never have been
That is by-the-by, though
More significantly, WHAT burglaries 'via locked front doors' are you refering to ?
Please either give details and source for that claim ... or properly withdraw it
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 08, 2014, 12:27:41 AM
/SNIP/- The block 5 (where the 5A apartment is) had a theft on 5L on April 17th. 2007, and an intent of theft on G5 (5G) on approximately April 26th. 2007. That is, 17 and 7 days before the abduction of Madeleine. /SNIP/-
Heriberto as you will see is eminently qualified to do his research. He has read every Processos and paper in the PJ reports and collated the times and evidences against each other. A task that has, I believe, taken him 4 years.
I have just realised that he doesn't specify that entrance was thru locked front doors, but we all know that Mrs Fenns was and there has been much talk about the other burglary also being thru a locked door.
Seems to me Icabod, that as an avid reader and contributor on this forum, you will know all this already. Not sure why you asked me, when you already know 8(0(*
I hope this satisfies you, cos I am off to bed now Icabaod
Nigh Night
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on January 08, 2014, 12:58:27 AM
/SNIP/- The block 5 (where the 5A apartment is) had a theft on 5L on April 17th. 2007, and an intent of theft on G5 (5G) on approximately April 26th. 2007. That is, 17 and 7 days before the abduction of Madeleine. /SNIP/-
Heriberto as you will see is eminently qualified to do his research. He has read every Processos and paper in the PJ reports and collated the times and evidences against each other. A task that has, I believe, taken him 4 years.
I have just realised that he doesn't specify that entrance was thru locked front doors, but we all know that Mrs Fenns was and there has been much talk about the other burglary also being thru a locked door.
Seems to me Icabod, that as an avid reader and contributor on this forum, you will know all this already. Not sure why you asked me, when you already know 8(0(*
I hope this satisfies you, cos I am off to bed now Icabaod
Nigh Night
I wasted my time scrolling through all of that
Why did you give a link that makes no justification at all of your claim that there were two burglaries 'via locked front doors' in the weeks preceding Madeleine's disappearance ? ... why did you do that ?
You are creating a myth here, and that should be noted
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on January 08, 2014, 01:07:29 AM
did anyone before GNR arrived think incorrectly that the open window was staged?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on January 08, 2014, 03:33:53 PM
Why did you give a link that makes no justification at all of your claim that there were two burglaries 'via locked front doors' in the weeks preceding Madeleine's disappearance ? ... why did you do that ?
You are creating a myth here, and that should be noted
why did you do that ?
You are creating a myth here, and that should be noted
Why did you give a link that makes no justification at all of your claim that there were two burglaries 'via locked front doors' in the weeks preceding Madeleine's disappearance ? ... why did you do that ?
You are creating a myth here, and that should be noted
I am not sure about the entrance point. But the exit point of person with Madeleine was not through the patio doors. Why? Because, as Kate McCann mentions somewhere (when asked about Madeleine exiting on here own)..she found the garden door closed, the patio door closed and the long curtain behind patio door tidy. A person holding a child could not do this, open the curtain, then the patio, then close the curtain, then patio, then open the garden doors and close them too..
IMO the exit was through the main ( front doors).. although there is a possibility that a person entered, given the Madeleine away though the window and then left alone.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on April 18, 2014, 08:49:21 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x_ZdDTsFC2g#t=2761 At exactly 46:30 in this video is a photo of a print with a ruler above it for scale. That photo is presented in the video as the crucial evidence that KM opened the window. (There is a closeup of the same photo at exactly 46:37).
However IMO the print in that photo is not KM's (and the photo is not even of the bedroom window).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on April 18, 2014, 09:24:22 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x_ZdDTsFC2g#t=2761 At exactly 46:30 in this video is a photo of a print with a ruler above it for scale. That photo is presented in the video as the crucial evidence that KM opened the window. (There is a closeup of the same photo at exactly 46:37).
However IMO the print in that photo is not KM's (and the photo is not even of the bedroom window).
How do you come to that conclusion? 8-)(--)
In any event, a single fingerprint can in no way prove that Kate opened the window on the evening that Madeleine disappeared. For all anyone knows she might have touched the window at any time since arriving at the apartment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 18, 2014, 09:50:10 PM
In any event, a single fingerprint can in no way prove that Kate opened the window on the evening that Madeleine disappeared. For all anyone knows she might have touched the window at any time since arriving at the apartment.
The shutters were closed all week so she couldn't have touched the window until that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on April 18, 2014, 10:00:28 PM
www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=x_ZdDTsFC2g#t=2761 At exactly 46:30 in this video is a photo of a print with a ruler above it for scale. That photo is presented in the video as the crucial evidence that KM opened the window. (There is a closeup of the same photo at exactly 46:37).
However IMO the print in that photo is not KM's (and the photo is not even of the bedroom window).
What are you basing your opinion on ?
How on earth could you know what Kate McCann's finger print looks like ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on April 18, 2014, 10:12:12 PM
Are you claiming these aren't Kate's finger prints?
Page 885 definitely shows fingerprints of KM. A total of 5 prints (from two fingers of left hand) on the glass of the north bedroom window. (Edited to correct fingers)
Now a question for you, whose is the print under the ruler in the photo at exactly 46:30 (and in closeup at exactly 46:37) in the bedroom window part of the video about KM opening the window? Do you think that is KM's finger print on the bedroom window? IMO it's not
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on April 19, 2014, 08:37:21 AM
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. End quote
Are you saying that it wasn't possible for KM to have touched the window while they were doing that?
If Kate was the only one who had touched the window - then obviously you wouldn't expect to find GM's fingerprints there would you.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 19, 2014, 09:01:54 AM
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. End quote
Are you saying that it wasn't possible for KM to have touched the window while they were doing that?
If Kate was the only one who had touched the window - then obviously you wouldn't expect to find GM's fingerprints there would you.
Well, if it's in Kate's book then it must be true.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on April 19, 2014, 09:02:32 AM
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. End quote
Are you saying that it wasn't possible for KM to have touched the window while they were doing that?
If Kate was the only one who had touched the window - then obviously you wouldn't expect to find GM's fingerprints there would you.
Merely because km says something in her book doesn't make it true.
You do realize that, don't you ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on April 19, 2014, 09:35:59 AM
Merely because km says something in her book doesn't make it true.
You do realize that, don't you ?
The McCanns reason for closing the shutters and curtains in that particular bedroom and leaving them like that are easy to understand - there is nothing sinister about it whatsoever. In fact there is nothing extraodinary at all about her fingerprints being found anywhere in an apartment where she had stayed for the previous 6 days. Therefore there would be no reason for her to lie.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Admin on April 19, 2014, 10:03:07 AM
The McCanns reason for closing the shutters and curtains in that particular bedroom and leaving them like that are easy to understand - there is nothing sinister about it whatsoever. In fact there is nothing extraodinary at all about her fingerprints being found anywhere in an apartment where she had stayed for the previous 6 days. Therefore there would be no reason for her to lie.
We are only surprised they didn't find a lot more and especially nice fresh ones belonging to Gerry on the bedroom shutters.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2014, 10:10:09 AM
We are only surprised they didn't find a lot more and especially nice fresh ones belonging to Gerry on the bedroom shutters.
Is it surprising? - when even Amaral admits there were 'shortcomings' in the recovery of forensics. In fact he particularly mentions the unprofessionalism of the person taking fingerprints at the shutters.
IIRC Diane Webster also tried the shutters - so why were her fingerprints not found?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on April 19, 2014, 10:29:20 AM
Is it surprising? - when even Amaral admits there were 'shortcomings' in the recovery of forensics. In fact he particularly mentions the unprofessionalism of the person taking fingerprints at the shutters.
IIRC Diane Webster also tried the shutters - so why were her fingerprints not found?
if they missed the prints of Gerry and Diane Webster then it is perfectly possible there were more prints there...the abductor...which they also missed
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on April 19, 2014, 11:56:41 AM
The answer to " Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?" is, of course he/she could.
We have watched numerous videos demonstrating the mechanics of this type of shutter being opened and closed from inside and outside apartments. It has been generally agreed the noise made would be ignored because it would be such a normal thing to hear.
Similarly there are many demonstrations of people entering via this route and demonstrations of how a child could easily be either lifted out, or passed out to an accomplice.
The question is why would an abductor use the window, apart for observation, when he/she had a perfectly good very secluded and private door to use?
Why risk drawing the attention of a passer by entering or leaving a property by a window, when no-one would have given a second glance to a person entering or leaving by the door, or who by the secluded nature of the doorway could have melted into the shadows till potential observers had passed?
IMO it was not a burglary gone wrong, but a well planned abduction attempt which for some reason was almost derailed. IMO this is why we have accounts of Smithman and Tannerman out in the street, I don't think that was part of the plan, therefore I think the shutter being raised was part of that last minute upset to the plan.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on April 19, 2014, 12:06:04 PM
Could we stay on topic please. TY
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on April 19, 2014, 01:12:32 PM
The answer to " Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?" is, of course he/she could.
We have watched numerous videos demonstrating the mechanics of this type of shutter being opened and closed from inside and outside apartments. It has been generally agreed the noise made would be ignored because it would be such a normal thing to hear.
Similarly there are many demonstrations of people entering via this route and demonstrations of how a child could easily be either lifted out, or passed out to an accomplice.
The question is why would an abductor use the window, apart for observation, when he/she had a perfectly good very secluded and private door to use?
Why risk drawing the attention of a passer by entering or leaving a property by a window, when no-one would have given a second glance to a person entering or leaving by the door, or who by the secluded nature of the doorway could have melted into the shadows till potential observers had passed?
IMO it was not a burglary gone wrong, but a well planned abduction attempt which for some reason was almost derailed. IMO this is why we have accounts of Smithman and Tannerman out in the street, I don't think that was part of the plan, therefore I think the shutter being raised was part of that last minute upset to the plan.
IMO there are three credible reasons for opening the window and shutters.
1. To give a swift 'escape' route if they were disturbed - which did not involve going back into the rest of the apartment and possibly being confronted face to face with someone.
2. As the only way of checking to see whether the coast was clear before leaving via the recessed front door carrying a child - which in itself would attract attention from anyone who unknown to them may have come into the car park whilst the intruder was inside 5A. Particular if they had been watching the movements of the group and knew that people would definitely be walking across that carpark several times during the evening.
3. To deflect attention away from the fact that they had a key.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2014, 02:53:45 PM
"The window to Madeleine’s bedroom remained closed, but she doesn’t know if it was locked, shutters and curtains drawn, and that was how it remained since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window shutters in Madeleine’s room open, it was not the deponent who opened them, and she never saw them open." (KM)
If Madeleine was lifted through the window then evidence would've been found IMO. Opening that window was suicidal.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on April 19, 2014, 02:54:31 PM
IMO there are three credible reasons for opening the window and shutters.
1. To give a swift 'escape' route if they were disturbed - which did not involve going back into the rest of the apartment and possibly being confronted face to face with someone.
2. As the only way of checking to see whether the coast was clear before leaving via the recessed front door carrying a child - which in itself would attract attention from anyone who unknown to them may have come into the car park whilst the intruder was inside 5A. Particular if they had been watching the movements of the group and knew that people would definitely be walking across that carpark several times during the evening.
3. To deflect attention away from the fact that they had a key.
You forgot one Benice.
4. To deflect attention from the fact that the door was opened from the inside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2014, 03:48:10 PM
If you wanted to get caught maybe? Think I'll leave some evidence behind while I'm at it? Suicidal anyway you look at it when the door was recessed - the open window would be seen by anybody in that car park 8-)(--) It wouldn't happen. Smithman was not professional carrying the child away on foot.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on April 19, 2014, 03:57:00 PM
If you wanted to get caught maybe? Think I'll leave some evidence behind while I'm at it? Suicidal anyway you look at it when the door was recessed - the open window would be seen by anybody in that car park 8-)(--) It wouldn't happen. Smithman was not professional carrying the child away on foot.
I'm pretty sure the open window and shutter was a ruse whatever scenario one chooses to believe. If an abductor had climbed in the window after managing to get the shutter up a bit he would have closed it behind him. Leaving the shutter up was an invitation to be caught imo.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on April 19, 2014, 05:58:43 PM
On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains. We left them that way all week. End quote
Are you saying that it wasn't possible for KM to have touched the window while they were doing that?
If Kate was the only one who had touched the window - then obviously you wouldn't expect to find GM's fingerprints there would you.
That's very strange. Seems like the shutters and window were closed in the bedroom from when they arrived. So Kate is contradicting Jane's testimony in her book which was written after the fact. They didn't need to touch them at all! That room was kept dark all week >@@(*&)
JT's Rog:
Reply “We never opened those shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great because it made the room really dark so it was good for them sleeping.” 4078 “Mm.” Reply “And we didn’t use that room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never even, never opened them or shut them.” 4078 “And the shutters were always down in their room?” Reply “No I don’t think we touched the shutters the whole time we were there.”
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on April 19, 2014, 08:53:56 PM
The print under the ruler in the photo at exactly 46:30 (and in closeup at exactly 46:37) in the bedroom window part of the video about KM opening the window?
As evidence that KM opened the window, the video uses that photo as if it were: (1) a finger print, (2) of KM, (3) on a window, (4) in the north bedroom.
All 4 points are incorrect IMO.
This can be established IMO by locating this particular 4th May photo in the actual case files
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on April 20, 2014, 09:17:34 PM
The answer to " Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?" is, of course he/she could. We have watched numerous videos demonstrating the mechanics of this type of shutter being opened and closed from inside and outside apartments.
Yes a very good video has been posted by Heriberto of how to open the window and shutter from outside. And If anyone still thinks the window auto-locks when you close it, please ask and I will post a video of the actual window (not some random other window) proving with demonsrartion by an expert that it certainly does not auto-lock.
It has been generally agreed the noise made would be ignored because it would be such a normal thing to hear. e shutter being raised was part of that last minute upset to the plan.
Generally agreed maybe but certainly not by me. Quite the opposite, IMO if someone was asleep in that room then it is likely the shutter noise would have woken them. Imagine if you are asleep in a room and someone from outside opens first the window and then the shutter which makes a loud noise, Isn't there a possibility this might wake you?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on April 21, 2014, 03:37:33 AM
Re: the digit print in the video which supposedly "proves" that KM opened the window herself, and is supposedly lying that she found it already open (for link to video and exact times within video see a previous post):. Here is a clue as to what the supposed "finger" print really is ... 8((()*/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on April 21, 2014, 08:11:50 AM
Yes a very good video has been posted by Heriberto of how to open the window and shutter from outside. And If anyone still thinks the window auto-locks when you close it, please ask and I will post a video of the actual window (not some random other window) proving with demonsrartion by an expert that it certainly does not auto-lock. Generally agreed maybe but certainly not by me. Quite the opposite, IMO if someone was asleep in that room then it is likely the shutter noise would have woken them. Imagine if you are asleep in a room and someone from outside opens first the window and then the shutter which makes a loud noise, Isn't there a possibility this might wake you?
But if the window were closed and someone either on the outside, or inside, opened the shutter, the noise within the room would be minimal. A deeply asleep child would be unlikely to stir. The window would slide open pretty nioselessly afterwards.
Does anyone know if the shutter was pulled up, or pushed up? I think I read that the shutter was at an angle. If that were the case it is likely it was pushed up. Anyone know for sure?
I wonder if it was wedged open?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: peter claridge on April 21, 2014, 09:23:38 AM
But if the window were closed and someone either on the outside, or inside, opened the shutter, the noise within the room would be minimal. A deeply asleep child would be unlikely to stir. The window would slide open pretty nioselessly afterwards.
Does anyone know if the shutter was pulled up, or pushed up? I think I read that the shutter was at an angle. If that were the case it is likely it was pushed up. Anyone know for sure?
I wonder if it was wedged open?
Imagine standing outside said shutter/window "just listening"...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on April 21, 2014, 09:31:41 AM
But if the window were closed and someone either on the outside, or inside, opened the shutter, the noise within the room would be minimal. A deeply asleep child would be unlikely to stir. The window would slide open pretty nioselessly afterwards.
Does anyone know if the shutter was pulled up, or pushed up? I think I read that the shutter was at an angle. If that were the case it is likely it was pushed up. Anyone know for sure?
I wonder if it was wedged open?
A couple of days ago you were questioning the height to which the shutters had been open
I gave you a quote from Kate's book in which she says the shutters had been "fully raised up" ... and you accepted it
Now you are back to questioning again
... don't you trust Kate's word ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on April 26, 2014, 01:25:07 AM
IMO that print which (in the bedroom window part of the video I linked to above) is attributed to the bedroom window and to KM and used to demonstrate that she opened the window, is actually from the lounge patio door and its a ring finger of left hand but is not KM's at all IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2014, 10:39:26 PM
How about he opened the shutter first (slowly to avoid making too much noise), entered the apartment using a key and, carrying a mobile which emitted sufficient light in the bedroom (whch was already a little lighter thanks to the open shutter) , the child was located, phone put back in pocket, chid picked up and removed via the point of entry never to be seen again? No Octopi required!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 11, 2014, 11:07:10 PM
How about he opened the shutter first (slowly to avoid making too much noise), entered the apartment using a key and, carrying a mobile which emitted sufficient light in the bedroom (whch was already a little lighter thanks to the open shutter)
That might be difficult. Dianne Webster 11th May:
However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.
So it needed a bit of force, as these shutters are designed to be opened from the apartment. There was no signs of any force used on shutters. One more thing, opening the shutters in a forcible way makes a lot of noise. All the kids in the bedroom would wake up.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on June 11, 2014, 11:21:45 PM
How about he opened the shutter first (slowly to avoid making too much noise), entered the apartment using a key and, carrying a mobile which emitted sufficient light in the bedroom (whch was already a little lighter thanks to the open shutter) , the child was located, phone put back in pocket, chid picked up and removed via the point of entry never to be seen again? No Octopi required!
So as the door was open wider when Gerry arrived for his 9.05 check the burglar ( if that is the theory we are going with now ) must have been in the apartment already so why didn't Gerry see the open shutter and when exactly did the intruder wake Madeleine in order for her cause enough fuss to somehow be killed, because she certainly wasn't awake or distressed when her father saw her ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 11, 2014, 11:23:30 PM
However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.
So it needed a bit of force, as these shutters are designed to be opened from the apartment. There was no signs of any force used on shutters. One more thing, opening the shutters in a forcible way makes a lot of noise. All the kids in the bedroom would wake up.
I've seen the video. It didn't make a lot of noise when Petermac pushed it up.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 11, 2014, 11:48:30 PM
I've seen the video. It didn't make a lot of noise when Petermac pushed it up.
Suggest you listen to shutter opening noise in Heriberto's video. It is very good on the three-stage shutter/window opening method and you can hear the loud noise (Shame he gets wrong by 180 degrees the direction the awoken person runs)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2014, 01:33:16 AM
If the latest SY theory is to be believed ( burglar kills Madeleine to keep her quiet ) are you saying the abductor woke her up twice, on two separate nights ? Seriously ?
Seems even SY with their millions still have not taken 5 minutes to actually think the burglary scenario through. Here is the properly analysed realistic version in a nutshell
Step 1: A burglar initiates a burglary from outside by opening that window and shutter (easy), because he thinks no-one is home. Step 2: This wakes an occupant of that room. Step 3: The burglar, still outside, sees and hears that occupant exit rapidly into another room. Step 4: I will let you guys fill this one in. What would you do now, having seen that, if you were this burglar?
A few minutes of actual thinking is better than a million pounds. And that is likely to be (part one of) what happened, JIMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 01:42:26 AM
Seems even SY with their millions still have not taken 5 minutes to actually think the burglary scenario through.
Here it is in a nutshell.
Step 1: A burglar initiates a burglary from outside by opening that window and shutter (easy).
Step 2: This wakes an occupant of that room (burglar thought no-one was home).
Step 3: The burglar, still outside, sees and hears that occupant exit rapidly into another room.
Step 4: I will let you guys fill this one in. What would you do now, having seen that, if you were this burglar?
If I were outside? I'd turn into the next Usain Bolt and ran away as far as possible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on June 12, 2014, 01:51:33 AM
The abductor was probably using a head-torch, leaving both hands free. I did read, in one of the rogatories I think, that a lamp had been left on in the main part of the villa - otherwise, how could anyone see anything when they went in through the patio doors?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2014, 02:00:51 AM
10 out of 10 Martina. IMO that is likely to be (part one of) what actually happened.
why was window opened, why was shutter opened, why was bedroom door opened, why did burglar not enter, why were no camera passports etc taken, why was toy left on bed, why was child no longer in room, - all solved together.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 02:02:06 AM
The abductor was probably using a head-torch, leaving both hands free.
Any torch being in use that night would exclude a theory about the burglar. He would not even get into the room, seeing in the light of his torch, that there were the children inside and Maddie would not be able to see his face, being blinded by the light.
Annnnd even if it was a vile paedophile, he still would have to have a helper, to put this goddamn head torch off, before leaving the apartment. Anyone coming out of the flat with a head-torch on would attract a lot of unwelcome attention.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2014, 02:19:13 AM
The abductor was probably using a head-torch, leaving both hands free. I did read, in one of the rogatories I think, that a lamp had been left on in the main part of the villa - otherwise, how could anyone see anything when they went in through the patio doors?
Good point, thankyou. I am looking at a window scenario and your torch idea is very applicable there. Lets say the burglar has a headtorch or torch I do not think he would use it while opening the window and shutter, no need. But then I think he would lean in and turn his headtorch or torch on, to have a quick check of the room before climbing in. So now to wake someone, in addition to the shutter noise, there is the torch. And also the torch means that, as well as hearing, he also sees in his torchlight (to his shock) that someone is home and awoken.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: icabodcrane on June 12, 2014, 03:59:34 AM
If I were outside? I'd turn into the next Usain Bolt and ran away as far as possible.
Of course you would ... so would any petty thief
Now, though, we are being asked to believe this petty thief was 'disturbed' by a waking three year old ... so he murdered her and carried her dead body through the streets of PDL to bury it within a five minutes walking distance
What a load of sh*te
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2014, 04:57:29 AM
Of course you would ... so would any petty thief...
Pleased some peeps agree he would flee rather than enter. What likely happened IMO is: The burglar starts gaining entry but before entering he abandons the burglary, and he certainly does not take the child. Some may say, oh that is rubbish theory because it does not explain what happened after that to the child. But I don't see how the case can be solved without it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 12, 2014, 08:10:55 AM
Suggest you listen to shutter opening noise in Heriberto's video. It is very good on the three-stage shutter/window opening method and you can hear the loud noise (Shame he gets wrong by 180 degrees the direction the awoken person runs)
What's wrong with Petermac's video then?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2014, 08:24:01 AM
PeterMac seemed to me to be deliberately trying to make as much noise as possible.
Shutters didn't seem that loud to me, though he obviously pushed them up as quickly as possible. Would have been interesting to see if he'd pushed them up more gently how much noise they would have made then.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2014, 08:32:05 AM
Shutters didn't seem that loud to me, though he obviously pushed them up as quickly as possible. Would have been interesting to see if he'd pushed them up more gently how much noise they would have made then.
None at all, I suspect.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 12, 2014, 03:05:20 PM
Shutters didn't seem that loud to me, though he obviously pushed them up as quickly as possible. Would have been interesting to see if he'd pushed them up more gently how much noise they would have made then.
They are loud. I used to have these in my home for 10 years when I was a child but if everyone in the building has them you kind of after a while don't notice that kind of noise. For the twins this would not be the sound they were used to like the local residents probably did. It all depend what kind of sleepers they are. One of my sisters wakes up if a fly is in the room, the other would sleep during an earthquake.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2014, 03:13:22 PM
Someone broke into the self same shutters in a house just down the road from me, and no one heard a thing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2014, 03:26:17 PM
None of this explains how Madeleine disappeared. If a burglar opened the window/shutters he did not enter that way. If they were opened from the outside then he didn't have a key. So some are saying the shutters woke the child up. I don't think Madeleine chased after the burglar going out the front door. If the shutters woke the child she would probably start screaming or would possibly go and hide behind the sofa. It doesn't explain how the burglar got inside 5A. With no key the only possible entry was the other patio side. So after opening the window/shutters he would have to go all the way round to the other side to enter and kill/take the child hiding behind the sofa. Why would he do that? None of that makes sense whichever way you look at it. It is definitely not a professional operation with Smithman running away on foot. Nobody passed through the window so to open it in connection with abducting a child makes no sense at all. If you were watching you would know the patio door was unlocked and that's how you would gain entry and you would exit via hidden front door but you would not touch the window/shutters.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 05:07:33 PM
None of this explains how Madeleine disappeared. If a burglar opened the window/shutters he did not enter that way. If they were opened from the outside then he didn't have a key. So some are saying the shutters woke the child up. I don't think Madeleine chased after the burglar going out the front door. If the shutters woke the child she would probably start screaming or would possibly go and hide behind the sofa. It doesn't explain how the burglar got inside 5A. With no key the only possible entry was the other patio side. So after opening the window/shutters he would have to go all the way round to the other side to enter and kill/take the child hiding behind the sofa. Why would he do that? None of that makes sense whichever way you look at it. It is definitely not a professional operation with Smithman running away on foot. Nobody passed through the window so to open it in connection with abducting a child makes no sense at all. If you were watching you would know the patio door was unlocked and that's how you would gain entry and you would exit via hidden front door but you would not touch the window/shutters.
You might also exit via the patio doors. If you hadn't been seen going in, chances are that you could also exit that way unseen.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 12, 2014, 05:21:37 PM
Someone broke into the self same shutters in a house just down the road from me, and no one heard a thing.
In the house down the road from you there was no child asleep in the room where the burglar opened the shutter. If there had been, the noise would have woken the child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on June 12, 2014, 05:24:48 PM
In the house down the road from you there was no child asleep in the room where the burglar opened the shutter. If there had been, the noise would have woken the child.
How do you know that?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 12, 2014, 05:29:12 PM
Shutters didn't seem that loud to me, though he obviously pushed them up as quickly as possible. Would have been interesting to see if he'd pushed them up more gently how much noise they would have made then.
But PeterMac video does only stage one - which makes very little noise in room because window is still closed.
Stage one: lift shutter a few inches = low noise inside room. Stage two: reach under shutter to slide window open = low noise inside room. Stage three: reach in and operate strap to raise shutter fully = very noisy in room.
Suggest you watch and listen to the 3-stage opening method in Heriberto's video - he does all 3 stages - and it is stage 3 that is very noisy inside the room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 12, 2014, 05:35:57 PM
But PeterMac video does only stage one - which makes very little noise in room because window is still closed.
Stage one: lift shutter a few inches = low noise inside room. Stage two: reach under shutter to slide window open = low noise inside room. Stage three: reach in and operate strap to raise shutter fully = very noisy in room.
Suggest you watch and listen to the 3-stage opening method in Heriberto's video - he does all 3 stages - and it is stage 3 that is very noisy inside the room.
In Petermac's video of the Apartment 5a shutters there are no 3 steps - it's just push 'em up and that's it - shutters open. If the windows were closed when the shutters were pushed up, then not much noise inside the room, right?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 05:40:44 PM
In Petermac's video of the Apartment 5a shutters there are no 3 steps - it's just push 'em up and that's it - shutters open. If the windows were closed when the shutters were pushed up, then not much noise inside the room, right?
And how do you manage to push these shutters up in one step, usting a lot of force (Dianne Webster was not able to lift them from the outside, remember?), without leaving any traces of it on them?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2014, 05:45:09 PM
And how do you manage to push these shutters up in one step, usting a lot of force (Dianne Webster was not able to lift them from the outside, remember?), without leaving any traces of it on them?
Yes they like to ignore the experts.
"They also tested the thumb prints, that showed up under the red dust of the forensic fingerprint powder, and proved the prints came from somebody moving the shutter from inside the apartment.
Again, Prof Dave Barclay said: "We must be very careful that we're not saying this is actually staging but it's difficult to see how anybody could have interfered with those shutters, from outside, without leaving some trace. In fact, having looked at them, I think it's almost impossible."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 12, 2014, 05:48:31 PM
And how do you manage to push these shutters up in one step, usting a lot of force (Dianne Webster was not able to lift them from the outside, remember?), without leaving any traces of it on them?
Gloves?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2014, 05:49:51 PM
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2014, 05:53:07 PM
6:50 onwards
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on June 12, 2014, 06:00:27 PM
Thanks for posting that clip - one of Amaral's proofs that there was no break-in was that you couldn't get into Apartment 5a without a key - why did he not consider the possibility that an abductor may have had a key? After all, it wouldn't have been the first time those apartments had been entered without any other sign of a break-in, meaning the burglar most likely had a key. Wouldn't a proper cop consider this possibility?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 12, 2014, 06:03:25 PM
He's the PJ expert and there was no evidence of a break in from the outside. If he had a key he wouldn't need to open the window and shutters.
He would if he wanted to hide the fact that he had a key.
He would if he wanted the means of a sharp exit which avoided his having to leave the bedroom and risk coming face to face with someone who had entered via the patio door.
He would if he wanted to check that the coast was clear before he left by the front door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 06:30:42 PM
He would if he wanted to hide the fact that he had a key.
Why to hide it?
Quote
He would if he wanted the means of a sharp exit which avoided his having to leave the bedroom and risk coming face to face with someone who had entered via the patio door.
Sharp exit through a small window, with two cots, a bed and a chair standing in the way. He had greater chances of tripping over some furniture, or getting caught on the windowsill, than of making a sharp exit.
Quote
He would if he wanted to check that the coast was clear before he left by the front door.
Okay, so he took Maddie from the bed, stuffed himself between the cots, stepped on the bed and what? Popped his head out of the window?
Thanks for posting that clip - one of Amaral's proofs that there was no break-in was that you couldn't get into Apartment 5a without a key - why did he not consider the possibility that an abductor may have had a key? After all, it wouldn't have been the first time those apartments had been entered without any other sign of a break-in, meaning the burglar most likely had a key. Wouldn't a proper cop consider this possibility?
Or the patio doors were left open, as you do !
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 07:02:57 PM
So why the abductor left the window open? For a dramatic effect?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 12, 2014, 07:58:50 PM
For abductor more convenient would be not to open the window. An unnattended child vanishes from the locked flat, and the parents become the first in the line of suspects. By opening that window abductor would just announce his presence in the flat. And it would be risky - it would make the time the perp spent in the flat longer and, well, to do that he would have to pass between the cots. Two sleeping children in them and a narrow passage in between. Not a good combination.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on June 12, 2014, 10:13:08 PM
No - to lessen the chance of in depth investigations of how someone came to have a key to an OC apartment
Sharp exit through a small window, with two cots, a bed and a chair standing in the way. He had greater chances of tripping over some furniture, or getting caught on the windowsill, than of making a sharp exit.
You make it sound like a 50 yrd obstacle course. We're talking about a few feet of clear path inbetween the cots to the window, where IIRC according to the piccies there was a space between the end of the bed and the chair - right underneath the window. Unless he was a decrepit old man with a gammy leg he could be across that room and out of the window in about 3/4 seconds. (Similar to the intruder in Mrs Fenns apartment?)
Okay, so he took Maddie from the bed, stuffed himself between the cots, stepped on the bed and what? Popped his head out of the window?
No - rather than go out of the front door of the apartment carrying Madeleine - not knowing whether the coast was clear - being unable to ascertain that without walking out as far as the path - thus risking being caught in the act by anyone in the carpark - he first checked out of the window and then picked her up and left via the front door - knowing that all was clear.
The front door area is not visible from that window, as it is receded a good bit.
Exactly - You could hardly see anything of the car park from the front door because it was so receded. That's why he needed to check out of the window to see if the coast was clear.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 12, 2014, 10:57:13 PM
You make it sound like a 50 yrd obstacle course. We're talking about a few feet of clear path inbetween the cots to the window, where IIRC according to the piccies there was a space between the end of the bed and the chair - right underneath the window. Unless he was a decrepit old man with a gammy leg he could be across that room and out of the window in about 3/4 seconds. (Similar to the intruder in Mrs Fenns apartment?)
A narrow path in bad lightning conditions is not a good way for a hurried escape. The narrow window at the end of it is not very good too. Not, when you need to be fast.
Quote
No - rather than go out of the front door of the apartment carrying Madeleine - not knowing whether the coast was clear - being unable to ascertain that without walking out as far as the path - thus risking being caught in the act by anyone in the carpark - he first checked out of the window and then picked her up and left via the front door - knowing that all was clear.
How the person in the carpark would know, that someone exiting the apartment through the main door is the abductor? That looks so innocuous, just another parent transporting his kid to a night creche. On the other hand, someone popping his head out of the window while holding a child, and then looking carefully around might look very suspicious.
Of course if the perp was leaving with a head-torch on the head as some people here suggest, that might rise some suspicions.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2014, 12:12:13 AM
A narrow path in bad lightning conditions is not a good way for a hurried escape. The narrow window at the end of it is not very good too. Not, when you need to be fast.
How the person in the carpark would know, that someone exiting the apartment through the main door is the abductor? That looks so innocuous, just another parent transporting his kid to a night creche. On the other hand, someone popping his head out of the window while holding a child, and then looking carefully around might look very suspicious.
Of course if the perp was leaving with a head-torch on the head as some people here suggest, that might rise some suspicions.
Yes someone exiting via the front (north) door carrying a child would look less suspicious than someone exiting the north window carrying a child. BTW taking your idea further, how about someone exiting the front door carrying a case? Would that look suspicious?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 13, 2014, 12:26:41 AM
Yes someone exiting via the front (north) door carrying a child would look less suspicious than someone exiting the north window carrying a child. BTW taking your idea further, how about someone exiting the front door carrying a case? Would that look suspicious?
Not very much I think.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 13, 2014, 12:58:08 AM
Even if a policeman happened to be standing right there and he sees a person coming out of a front door carrying a case, he won't think it suspicious, it's an everyday occurence in a tourist resort.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on June 14, 2014, 01:49:24 AM
Even if a policeman happened to be standing right there and he sees a person coming out of a front door carrying a case, he won't think it suspicious, it's an everyday occurence in a tourist resort.
It's even less suspicious if the nice lady coming out of the apartment is carrying a sleeping child. Or maybe the child is even walking next to her.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: a.baker on June 15, 2014, 09:40:03 PM
Re - the shutters. I am confused! The shutters were allegedly found raised up. Gerry was said to have ran outside to see if the shutters could be raised from the outside,and Diane also repeats this same procedure. So who then closed the shutters in order for them to be able to attempt to raise them?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 15, 2014, 09:45:11 PM
Re - the shutters. I am confused! The shutters were allegedly found raised up. Gerry was said to have ran outside to see if the shutters could be raised from the outside,and Diane also repeats this same procedure. So who then closed the shutters in order for them to be able to attempt to raise them?
And for what, actually?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 15, 2014, 11:26:58 PM
"However, she states that KATE had repeatedly commented that, on arriving at the bedroom, she had found the window of the room, with its shutter, both open. Yet, she [DW] did not notice, while at the entrance to the room, if the window was or was not open. - However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her. Consequently she infers that at the time of her arrival at the apartment the window would have been closed." (Dianne Webster 11 May Statement)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 15, 2014, 11:27:46 PM
Not did any of the tapas lot as they walked across the car park to their own apartments to check on their children.
Despite the fact there was a table lamp on in 5a's lounge and if the shutter was up and the children's bedroom door open, the lamp would have filtered through the bedroom and illuminated the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Albertini on June 16, 2014, 12:16:31 AM
I'm also struggling to understand why an abductor would risk the noise of opening a shutter and blindly sticking his head out of the window to see if the coast was clear.
That's very high risk, given he could have simply used the recess around the door for hidden cover, particularly as most normal people walking past an open shutter would notice it. It's drawing attention to yourself and the crime.
Still we'll never know the truth given Gerry mccann destroyed the forensic evidence that the shutter could have provided, by opening the bleeding thing before the police got there.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2014, 12:53:59 AM
And what time was the window opened? Matt didn't notice any draught, slamming doors or whooshing curtains.
Try this experiment on a breezy day. Open a front window and a back door to create a decent draught. Do two tests on an internal door inbetween. 1. Place the internal door in any reasonably well open position. Then observe whether it slams. 2. Place the internal door in a barely ajar position. Then observe whether it slams. I got no slam with the first test, and a slam with the second..
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 16, 2014, 01:00:15 AM
Kate said the patio door was shut not open. Matt said the door was half-open so if the window was opened after his check the bedroom door would've slammed shut before she arrived.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 16, 2014, 01:01:47 AM
1. They leave at 8.45 doors left ajar and window closed 2. Gerry comes 9.05 finds window closed but the doors open wider than he left it.. Why? He returns the doors to 'ajar' 3. Matthew Oldfield comes at 9.30.. at this point the door is slightly open, wider than 'ajar' because he can see the twins in travel cots. Also he reports a little light. Possible the shutter(blind) is open, but not the window. Why? 4. Kate comes at 10pm, finds the doors open, finds the window and the blind open. And no Madeleine.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 16, 2014, 01:13:40 AM
1. They leave at 8.45 doors left ajar and window closed 2. Gerry comes 9.05 finds window closed but the doors open wider than he left it.. Why? He returns the doors to 'ajar' 3. Matthew Oldfield comes at 9.30.. at this point the door is slightly open, wider than 'ajar' because he can see the twins in travel cots. Also he reports a little light. Possible the shutter(blind) is open, but not the window. Why? 4. Kate comes at 10pm, finds the doors open, finds the window and the blind open. And no Madeleine.
5. After 10 p.m Dianne Webster comes and finds out the window is fully closed and the blind almost fully. Who closed it and why?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 16, 2014, 01:21:22 AM
Dianne Webster stated she tried to open the shutters from the outside. You cannot open (or try to open) the shutters that already are open.
Is Dianne Webster one of the persons of interest to the Met and the PJ in the current investigation into what happened to Madeleine McCann? Surely she had nothing to do with home invasions and surely her phone wasn't pinging in unison with those which have excited the interest of the PJ and the Met?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 16, 2014, 01:41:43 AM
You obviously haven't watched the video made by Pat Brown ... Peter Mac showed exactly how to do it ... sure still to be available on You Tube.
I watched ages ago and he certainly doesn't solve it. It's a 3-stage method He demonstrates (illegally BTW) only stage 1. He was prevented from doing stage 2. Therefore he never got the chance to try to figure out stage 3.. Watch Heriberto video of all 3 stages.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Martina on June 16, 2014, 02:07:39 AM
So, who closed the shutters?
Ah, I have my answer. Gerry McCann, 10th May statement.
The deponent ran to the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment. ----- Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside.
Incredible. isn't it? His wife is screaming, his daughter is gone, and what is he doing, looking for his child? No. He closes the shutters and then tries to open them from the outside, as if it was the most important thing at the moment. Not that there was an urgent need to find his own child. Sigh.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 16, 2014, 02:41:37 AM
At this point in time, despite thousands of posts to the contrary, no-one was staging anything nor faking behaviour. Faced with the evidence of the open window and shutter, this is a genuine attempt, , to try to work out what has happened, to work out whether it's possible someone opened the window and shutter from outside, or if not, what did happen.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on June 16, 2014, 02:46:25 AM
At this point in time, despite thousands of posts to the contrary, no-one was staging anything nor faking behaviour. Faced with the evidence of the open window and shutter, this is a genuine attempt, , to try to work out what has happened, to work out whether it's possible someone opened the window and shutter from outside, or if not, what did happen.
You won't convince the doubters. Sadly their minds are like the shutters which cannot be opened from the outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on June 19, 2014, 05:30:40 PM
I have no difficulty at all in believing Kate when she said she found the window and shutters open. If she and Gerry had decided to open them as part of a plan they would have made sure that scuff marks or other signs of a break in would be found. And in the knowledge that there could be no 'stranger's' fingerprints at the scene, they would have made damn sure none of their own were there either. After all, this was going to be their 'proof' of an intruder and so it was of major importance to get it right.
For them not to have realised any of the above would mean they were both on a par with 'simpletons' when it came to their intelligence levels. Anyone who thinks they were both that stupid is simply choosing to ignore the obvious. IMO.
In the first interviews it was confirmed that Matthew had entered via the unlocked patio doors - and so there was no attempt to hide the fact that those doors were not locked.
The shutters could be opened from the outside - and there is a video to prove it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 19, 2014, 08:59:40 PM
There is no proof that the shutters were jemmied.
As to abduction...JS evidence of that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 19, 2014, 11:06:22 PM
The psychology is: guests assume that if shutter is down no need to check if window is locked (source RO rog).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2014, 11:13:14 PM
The adults did not check if window was locked. Window & shutter were opened from outside without force.
Remember Dianne Webster's statement? She was unable to open the shutters from the outside. Annnd there is no evidence whatsoever that the shuttters and the window were opened from the outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 19, 2014, 11:41:59 PM
The devil is in the details!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 19, 2014, 11:42:27 PM
Before 10 and long before the actual physical disappearance from apartment
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 12:29:29 AM
I think the window was opened from inside. The reason was to either check for the accomplice or the way for the preparation of escape if something went wrong.
Pity the PJ never removed the blind opening rope for the DNA checkup.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 12:35:25 AM
It was a strap, operated in this instance by reaching in from outside, see Heriberto's video.
Yes, the strap. I called it a rope. It seems amazing that the police never removed it. They had a child missing and the open window in that room. Same goes for Madeleine's bedding.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 12:45:31 AM
Yes, the strap. I called it a rope. It seems amazing that the police never removed it. They had a child missing and the open window in that room. Same goes for Madeleine's bedding.
From outside with gloves pull up the shutter a little, then slide window open, then reach in to easily operate strap.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 12:46:57 AM
Same evidence as at 5G upstairs (window open, no forced entry) therefore same method.
This is not a proof. There is no proof of whatsoever that this shutter was opened from outside, therefore no theory can be built on a firm base that the window was opened from outside and by an intruder.
I hope we would get to know more about this once the 8 people of interest were questioned.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 02:00:58 AM
And if I don't that would exclude the possibility that exactly this happened this time?
I am not claiming it is proof. I am just observing that every year there are thousands of unlawful openings of windows from outside, and very few unlawful openings of windows from inside.
At least we both I hope agree on the following two important points: 1. KM is a truthful witness and did genuinely find the window open. 2. The window was opened unlawfully.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on June 20, 2014, 08:55:55 AM
Exactly Stephen, and that is the whole point of my previous post. If the McCanns did open the window/shutters as part of a plan to convince the police that intruders had broken in - then common sense alone dictates that they would have 'created' some evidence of that themselves. They would both have to be as thick as two planks not to realise how important that was. For instance - it wouldn't be difficult for them to put a few marks on the outside window cill or even the wall beneath it from inside the bedroom if necessary. Also the one thing they would not do is leave any of their own fingerprints on the window.
But we are being asked to believe that they did nothing - and simply decided to open the window/shutters themselves and then claim they had been forced open from the outside - knowing full well that no evidence whatsoever of their claim would be found on inspection by the police. Duh?
Why even bother with such a 'doomed' scheme involving the window/shutters at all - when all they had to do was claim that an intruder must have entered through the patio doors - which would also strengthen their claim that they had been targetted and watched for several days beforehand and so the perpetrator would know they were leaving the patio doors unlocked. Simples.
IMO Kate found the window/shutters open when she returned but it simply did not occur to her that they had been opened from the inside by the intruder(s). And there is no credible reason why she should have thought any differently in those first moments after finding Madeleine gone. Anyone would think the same.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on June 20, 2014, 09:04:25 AM
Exactly Stephen, and that is the whole point of my previous post. If the McCanns did open the window/shutters as part of a plan to convince the police that intruders had broken in - then common sense alone dictates that they would have 'created' some evidence of that themselves. They would both have to be as thick as two planks not to realise how important that was. For instance - it wouldn't be difficult for them to put a few marks on the outside window cill or even the wall beneath it from inside the bedroom if necessary. Also the one thing they would not do is leave any of their own fingerprints on the window.
But we are being asked to believe that they did nothing - and simply decided to open the window/shutters themselves and then claim they had been forced open from the outside - knowing full well that no evidence whatsoever of their claim would be found on inspection by the police. Duh?
Why even bother with such a 'doomed' scheme involving the window/shutters at all - when all they had to do was claim that an intruder must have entered through the patio doors - which would also strengthen their claim that they had been targetted and watched for several days beforehand and so the perpetrator would know they were leaving the patio doors unlocked. Simples.
IMO Kate found the window/shutters open when she returned but it simply did not occur to her that they had been opened from the inside by the intruder(s). And there is no credible reason why she should have thought any differently in those first moments after finding Madeleine gone. Anyone would think the same.
The trouble is with that, is that there is no proof the windows or shutters were open.
We only have her word for that.
Which of course has to be tested in court to establish the truth.
The jemmying claim comes from the family, as I have posted before.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on June 20, 2014, 09:26:14 AM
Same evidence as at 5G upstairs (window open, no forced entry) therefore same method.
I agree that the similarities in both cases suggest the same modus operandi.
In the case of the home invasion at Mrs Fenn's residence the fact that the intruder was in the act of exiting via the window illustrates that it was being used as an 'emergency' exit rather than an entry point.
It was thought he had a key to the apartment. Recent revelations at the start of the new investigation regarding irregularities with the keys for the apartments, suggest that a key could have been used.to enter both 5G and 5A.
Similarly it would appear that as in the case of 5G - the window was opened to be used as an emergency exit should the intruder be disturbed.
- SNIP - Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door.
The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom.
Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window.
She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
- SNIP - "She was shaking with fear and called the police.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 01:16:04 PM
I agree that the similarities in both cases suggest the same modus operandi.
In the case of the home invasion at Mrs Fenn's residence the fact that the intruder was in the act of exiting via the window illustrates that it was being used as an 'emergency' exit rather than an entry point.
It was thought he had a key to the apartment. Recent revelations at the start of the new investigation regarding irregularities with the keys for the apartments, suggest that a key could have been used.to enter both 5G and 5A.
Similarly it would appear that as in the case of 5G - the window was opened to be used as an emergency exit should the intruder be disturbed.
- SNIP - Mrs Fenn has told police how she scared off an intruder she found in her apartment in the Ocean Club complex in Praia da Luz in the weeks leading up to Madeleine's disappearance.
There was no sign of a break-in and police believe he may have used a key to get in through the front door.
The terrified mother was watching TV in the evening and went to investigate a noise coming from her bedroom.
Mrs Fenn, who has lived in Praia da Luz for a number of years, discovered a man scrambling out of the window.
She tried to grab his ankle but he escaped. She reported the incident to police but did not believe anything was taken.
- SNIP - "She was shaking with fear and called the police.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
That the intruder at 5G had a key is pure conjecture..
I think he entered 5G through the window using the 3 stage method (see heriberto video).
Surprised no-one has said yet: "Ah - but 5G is not on the ground floor - a burglar wishing to get in via a window would need a ladder or roof climbing skills to get to the outside of the window in order to use the 3 stage method - gotcha!".
If anyone does, I will explain why that objection is based on a wrong assumption.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 20, 2014, 01:49:54 PM
That the intruder at 5G had a key is pure conjecture..
I think he entered 5G through the window using the 3 stage method (see heriberto video).
Surprised no-one has said yet: "Ah - but 5G is not on the ground floor - a burglar wishing to get in via a window would need a ladder or roof climbing skills to get to the outside of the window in order to use the 3 stage method - gotcha!".
If anyone does, I will explain why that objection is based on a wrong assumption.
Fenn's window/shutters would have been open as she was in the apartment at the time so he could enter. There is no evidence of the window/shutters being open at 5A unless you think MW leave their apartments unsecure when they are empty.
Finger/Thumb prints revealing shutters being raised from the inside.
(http://i60.tinypic.com/2i9nqs7.jpg)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 02:08:12 PM
Fenn's window/shutters would have been open as she was in the apartment at the time so he could enter....
We agree here I think to the extent that the intruder at 5G possibly entered via the same window he exited by?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 20, 2014, 02:13:08 PM
"We know that the window was cleaned the previous day -. However, Kate says she never opened the window. And most importantly, there were no signs of breaking in." (Amaral)
So the cleaner on WED left it open after cleaning it? I doubt it because nobody used it 8-)(--) All evidence points to the window/shutters being opened from the inside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on June 20, 2014, 02:15:42 PM
"We know that the window was cleaned the previous day -. However, Kate says she never opened the window. And most importantly, there were no signs of breaking in." (Amaral)
So the cleaner on WED left it open after cleaning it? I doubt it because nobody used it 8-)(--) All evidence points to the window/shutters being opened from the inside.
IMO the situation in the north bedroom after (and possibly also before) the Wednesday cleaner visit was: the shutter was completely down, the sliding window was in the fully closed position, the lower button on the window handle was in the depressed position, and the upper button on the window handle was in the raised position. The mechanical working of these two buttons is demonstrated excellently in Mr Amaral's film.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 02:47:59 PM
Yes that makes sense to go out the same way he came in.
Fantastic. A pleasure to see someone not going for the "oh the 5G intruder must have had a key" assumption. There are maybe about half a dozen windows at 5G, but it is possible to work out exactly which one of those windows the 5G intruder used. The clues are that 5G is not on the ground floor, and that Mrs F does not mention any roof-climbing or ladder-use by the intruder. And so, looking at in external photos of the building, the exact window used by intruder at 5G can be identified
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on June 20, 2014, 03:28:33 PM
It was Gerry's sister who said Madeline is missing and the window was 'jemmied' according to Kate (implying a jemmy tool or similar was used) this would give the impression a stranger entered the flat and abducted their daughter coming in and going out of the window.
note: they did not admit at this early stage that the patio door was left open.
The jemmied shutter claim was instantly dismissed by police and experts due to the lack of any evidence. no foot prints in the soil below-no scuff marks on the white rendering outside-the difficulty in carrying a child out a small window without,banging her head or feet-waking her up, leaving ANY of Madeline's DNA.
Smoke and mirrors I'm afraid.
Kate's prints were on the window, because she opened it. Simples.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 03:35:31 PM
This is likely to be the window through which an intruder entered and exited flat 5G. (marked in photo by a yellow cross)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: a.baker on June 20, 2014, 03:55:58 PM
It wasn't just GM's sister though. There is a statement in the files by a male friend of KM's that states she phoned him in the middle of the night to tell him that Madeleine had been 'abducted' and that the shutters had been jemmied open etc.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: VIXTE on June 20, 2014, 04:40:02 PM
I don't think he-she either entered or left through the window. Remember, there were no DNA or particle findings to prove this.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 20, 2014, 05:05:09 PM
I don't think he-she either entered or left through the window....
Here I completely agree with you. At 5A the window was open but absolutely no-one entered or left through the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on June 23, 2014, 04:51:35 PM
A mention of 4 burglaries of OC apartments in 2006
"Travel Date: August 2006. i have just returned from our holiday with Thomas cook ocean club apartments praia da luz ... we got there on the 19th aug and by the 20th we had been burgled we found out later 3 other familys had allso been burgled from the same apartments"
We do know that the shutters can be raised from outside. And we don't know if the window was locked.
Do you have any idea how much noise those shutters make? If those shutters were closed all the way down, with no spaces between the slats, there is no way they could be raised from the outside. Therefore, I don't know where you get your information.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on July 06, 2014, 10:41:02 AM
Do you have any idea how much noise those shutters make? If those shutters were closed all the way down, with no spaces between the slats, there is no way they could be raised from the outside. Therefore, I don't know where you get your information.
There are identical shutters close by to my house, and I am completely unaware when they are raised or lowered.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 06, 2014, 02:11:13 PM
Do you have any idea how much noise those shutters make? If those shutters were closed all the way down, with no spaces between the slats, there is no way they could be raised from the outside. Therefore, I don't know where you get your information.
You are wrong Montclair.
There is a record of Heri raising shutters of the type, sliding the window opening and completing raising the shutter using the interior cord.
- SNIP - "So how can you open the window from the outside and avoid them falling again, without harming nothing? It is possible, if the glass doors are not locked.
You have to do the following steps:
1. Raise from outside the shutters to from half to three quarters of the window height. 2. Mantain the shutters in this position with your left hand. 3. If the left glass door (seen from outside) is closed, open it to the right ... 4. Always maintaining the shutters with your left hand, introduce your right hand to catch the cord and gently open the shutters as usual …
Heriberto Janosch González Original photographs courtesy Pamalam. http://exposingthemyths.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mechanism-of-roller-shutters.html
There is also Pat Brown's video of her visit to Luz in which Peter Mac carries out a demonstration of the same excercise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeuMzyaCnnY
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 02:53:15 PM
1. Raise from outside the shutters to from half to three quarters of the window height. 2. Maintain the shutters in this position with your left hand. 3. If the left glass door (seen from outside) is closed, open it to the right ... 4. Always maintaining the shutters with your left hand, introduce your right hand to catch the cord and gently open the shutters as usual …
Watch Heri demonstrate Start at 0:14 and finish at 0:40 It takes only 25 seconds to get shutter and window open from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Montclair on July 06, 2014, 03:08:25 PM
Watch Heri demonstrate Start at 0:14 and finish at 0:40 It takes only 25 seconds to get shutter and window open from outside. http://youtu.be/fzpniKAWvUI?t=14s
This can only be done if the shutters are not fully closed all the way down and it seems that the shutters were tightly closed with no light coming through. Even so, pushing them up makes a lot of noise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 03:11:38 PM
@heriberto just a suggestion - publish a second version of this video, edited down to show just the opening method. by removing the first section from 0 to 14 seconds (it is unneccesary to triplicate the initial lifting of the shutter), and removing the section after 40 seconds (which is not part of the opening method). I think it important to allow people to see your excellent opening method demonstration, in isolation, and not combined with the seperate conjecture of what happened next. Presenting an "opening method only" version of the video, by editing out the first and last sections, leaving only the section starting at 14 seconds and ending at 40 seconds, would enable people to better understand the opening method itself, I think.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: ferryman on July 06, 2014, 03:24:03 PM
There is a record of Heri raising shutters of the type, sliding the window opening and completing raising the shutter using the interior cord.
- SNIP - "So how can you open the window from the outside and avoid them falling again, without harming nothing? It is possible, if the glass doors are not locked.
You have to do the following steps:
1. Raise from outside the shutters to from half to three quarters of the window height. 2. Mantain the shutters in this position with your left hand. 3. If the left glass door (seen from outside) is closed, open it to the right ... 4. Always maintaining the shutters with your left hand, introduce your right hand to catch the cord and gently open the shutters as usual …
Heriberto Janosch González Original photographs courtesy Pamalam. http://exposingthemyths.blogspot.co.uk/2012/02/mechanism-of-roller-shutters.html
There is also Pat Brown's video of her visit to Luz in which Peter Mac carries out a demonstration of the same excercise. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IeuMzyaCnnY
A real thorn in the side of truth-deniers is Heri.
Bless him!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 03:25:58 PM
This can only be done if the shutters are not fully closed all the way down and it seems that the shutters were tightly closed with no light coming through.
I think it can be done easily when the shutters are fully closed. The 5A shutters have no locking mechanism. There are plenty of places outside to get enough grasp of the fully closed shutter, to raise it a little (which is part one of the opening method).
From another thread:I think it can be done easily when the shutters are fully closed. The 5A shutters have no locking mechanism. There are plenty of places outside to get enough grasp of the fully closed shutter, to raise it a little (which is part one of the opening method).Agreed, and if someone is asleep in the room it may wake them up. But why dismiss the opening method because of that?
If the shutters are closed all the way you can't get your hand underneath to push them up and even then you can't if there are no spaces between the slats. You say there are plenty of place outside to get a grasp. What are these places because I don't see any on any of my shutters or any of my neighbours. I am dismissing the opening method because if the shutters are tightly closed, no way that they can be opened from the outside. Believe what you want.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 04:32:18 PM
If the shutters are closed all the way you can't get your hand underneath to push them up and even then you can't if there are no spaces between the slats. You say there are plenty of place outside to get a grasp. What are these places because I don't see any on any of my shutters or any of my neighbours. I am dismissing the opening method because if the shutters are tightly closed, no way that they can be opened from the outside. Believe what you want.
I think this can be done by first inserting fingernails between the base of the shutter and the sill. Or by inserting fingernails between any two slats near the base of the shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on July 06, 2014, 04:43:55 PM
I think this can be done by first inserting fingernails between the base of the shutter and the sill. Or by inserting fingernails between any two slats near the base of the shutter.
That's correct, the shutter actually rest on the concrete window sill so all you have to do is push your fingers underneath the bottom slat and raise it or alternatively grab hold of one or both of the rubber bumpers at the bottom and lift it.
(http://i.imgur.com/E8TJqEy.jpg?1)
(http://i.imgur.com/kJTEZEo.jpg?1)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Montclair on July 06, 2014, 04:45:42 PM
I think this can be done by first inserting fingernails between the base of the shutter and the sill. Or by inserting fingernails between any two slats near the base of the shutter.
If the shutters are tightly closed there is no space between the shutter and the sill and there is no space between the slats. You can't open them with your fingernails.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on July 06, 2014, 05:02:08 PM
As far as I can see those shutters don't have the snib locking mechanism at the bottom which mine have in Spain which allows them to be locked down tight. Consequently they are simply sitting on the sill by gravity and are easily lifted.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 05:10:07 PM
As far as I can see those shutters don't have the snib locking mechanism at the bottom which mine have in Spain which allows them to be locked down tight. Consequently they are simply sitting on the sill by gravity and are easily lifted.
Agreed. Photos of the 5A window show that the shutters have no locking mechanism.
And yes, thanks for pointing out the rubber bumpers, from outside one can simply grab them to raise shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on July 06, 2014, 05:37:46 PM
Matt thought that were was some light coming from outside. Could it be that the shutters weren't fully down and light came in through slats?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on July 06, 2014, 05:39:40 PM
Off course, they could have been fully down but with the slats fully open.
Yes the shutters may be left fully closed, either with no gaps between the slats, or with small gaps between the slats to let some light in, as seen in the photos you uploaded.
(http://i.imgur.com/t97GbGH.jpg)
Typical window assembly at Ocean Club resort.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 06:21:43 PM
Yes the shutters may be left fully closed, either with no gaps between the slats, or with small gaps between the slats to let some light in, as seen in the photos you uploaded.
(http://i.imgur.com/t97GbGH.jpg)
Typical window assembly at Ocean Club resort.
Typical, yes showing small gaps. However, with light refraction making the holes look bigger. Only about 10% of the shutter allows light thru.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 07:04:42 PM
"We know that the window was cleaned the previous day -. However, Kate says she never opened the window. And most importantly, there were no signs of breaking in." (Amaral)
So the cleaner on WED left it open after cleaning it? I doubt it because nobody used it 8-)(--) All evidence points to the window/shutters being opened from the inside.
The cleaning lady's statement makes no reference to having cleaned the windows the previous day.
Where did he get that idea from?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 06, 2014, 08:00:11 PM
This can only be done if the shutters are not fully closed all the way down and it seems that the shutters were tightly closed with no light coming through. Even so, pushing them up makes a lot of noise.
Where do you get the shutters being tightly closed from Montclair?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 06, 2014, 10:44:35 PM
It is a question of whether the fully closed window was locked or not. If you press the top button, it's locked. If you don't press the top button, it's not locked
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 06, 2014, 11:26:49 PM
Actually it is a generous estimate. Bur it looks very different on the photo cos of light refraction.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2014, 12:34:22 AM
As I said, unless the top button is pressed in, the window is not locked, it can be opened from outside.
"... we hadn’t checked whether the windows were locked ... it wasn’t until Madeleine disappeared that we actually checked that the windows were locked ... ...we .. kind of assumed that they were cos the shutters were down ..." http://www.mccannfiles.com/id253.html
"... Regarding the windows ... he does not know if they were locked ..." http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta3
"... as far as windows are concerned, she said they were closed but she doesn’t know if they were locked ..." http://www.mccannfiles.com/id192.html#sta5
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 07, 2014, 12:59:29 AM
The shutter operating strap is only about 50mm from the window opening. Normal arm length is more than sufficient.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 11, 2014, 08:39:18 PM
(Sorry I removed post because video was taking too long to load)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2014, 12:15:12 PM
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2014, 05:56:57 PM
No-one checked that the window lock button was pressed (Source: statements in files). With it not pressed, window and shutter can be opened from outside without force in 24 secs (Source: Heriberto video). "the facts occurred on the day 3 of May of 2007, in a time period, understood to be between 21H05 and 22H00" (Source: Intro of Final Report). The opening of window and shutter from outside is indeed likely to have occurred within that time period. However as I have demonstrated (by working it through step by step) the opening is likely to have resulted in the opener leaving without entering and the child going into another room. The actual physical disappearance from the premises I think is temporally a seperate event and is likely to be considerably outside the bounds of that time period stated in the Intro of the Final Report.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on July 16, 2014, 03:19:05 PM
Madeleine_McCann could have been abducted in less than a minute! by Heriberto Janosch González
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2014, 03:29:52 PM
As Heriberto does point out on his site - the first and second of the three initial shutter raisings in his video are unnecessary.
The complete procedure to open the shutter and window in the video starts at 14 secs and ends at 38 secs.
It takes Heriberto only 24 seconds to get from fully closed window and shutter, to fully open. I think a real burglar would do it in about 15 seconds.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on July 17, 2014, 06:20:53 PM
As Heriberto does point out on his site - the first and second of the three initial shutter raisings in his video are unnecessary.
The complete procedure to open the shutter and window in the video starts at 14 secs and ends at 38 secs.
It takes Heriberto only 24 seconds to get from fully closed window and shutter, to fully open. I think a real burglar would do it in about 15 seconds.
I would hazard a bet that the intruder had tried this particular shutter previously in order to ascertain that it was easily lifted. Some of the older shutters have a tendency to jam when lifted from the outside and can only be raised a few inches.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 18, 2014, 01:43:32 AM
I would hazard a bet that the intruder had tried this particular shutter previously in order to ascertain that it was easily lifted. Some of the older shutters have a tendency to jam when lifted from the outside and can only be raised a few inches.
Not necessarily the 5A shutter, but yes, he would almost certainly have on previous dates done same with some other windows/shutters of block 5 and surrounding blocks. In the earlier attempted burglary at the 5G (Fenn) apartment, it is highly likely the perp entered through the window which the witness reported had been opened.. Using Heriberto's simple 3-stage method. And before anyone says - oh that is impossible because it was an upstairs apartment he would have to climb to do that - here is the easy solution. The entry point at 5G is likely to be the window which opens onto the publically accessible first-floor walkway. So that window to a burglar is as easy as a groundfloor window
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 18, 2014, 02:18:25 PM
Not necessarily the 5A shutter, but yes, he would almost certainly have on previous dates done same with some other windows/shutters of block 5 and surrounding blocks. In the earlier attempted burglary at the 5G (Fenn) apartment, it is highly likely the perp entered through the window which the witness reported had been opened.. Using Heriberto's simple 3-stage method. And before anyone says - oh that is impossible because it was an upstairs apartment he would have to climb to do that - here is the easy solution. The entry point at 5G is likely to be the window which opens onto the publically accessible first-floor walkway. So that window to a burglar is as easy as a groundfloor window
I think the following may be proof that little time is required to raise the shutter of the apartment; any subsequent noise either being ignored or unheard; and the person/s carrying out the procedure being able to do so unobserved.
- Snipped -
- Back at 5A of the Ocean Club, on 26 September someone forced up the external blinds of the front bedroom to an oblique angle. There appeared to be no attempt to force open the window. The security guard stated between 21:00 and 21:05 he had done the 'rounds' of the block, then walked down to the supermarket and back again whereupon he found the damage which he called in immediately.
- He and a colleague from the same security detail had conversed shortly before 21:00 noting that neither had seen any strangers other than two Canadian television journalists, a man and a woman, who had been seen at a nearby bar.
- Given the limited damage and that there had been many people at that location [presumably during the previous days and all authorised] there was no attempt to retrieve fingerprints, but inquiries were made of TV crews and journalists in and around Luz and Lagos, without result. Processos Vol XI Pages 2945 – 2952 http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DCCB_LETTER.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on July 18, 2014, 03:55:04 PM
So they employed security guards after the alleged abduction. Talk about closing the barn door after the horse had bolted. Quite something!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on July 18, 2014, 04:02:14 PM
So they employed security guards after the alleged abduction. Talk about closing the barn door after the horse had bolted. Quite something!
Would you not be criticising them if they had ignored the lesson to be learned and had not employed guards?
Their earlier risk assessment had proved wrong and they modified it accordingly. Good business practice.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Admin on July 19, 2014, 07:08:26 AM
I believe the point being made was that Ocean Club should have had security in place already given the number of intruders reported by guests and owners. It was in effect a disaster waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on July 19, 2014, 08:28:13 AM
I believe the point being made was that Ocean Club should have had security in place already given the number of intruders reported by guests and owners. It was in effect a disaster waiting to happen.
Its easy to be wise after the event.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 19, 2014, 10:49:06 AM
I believe the point being made was that Ocean Club should have had security in place already given the number of intruders reported by guests and owners. It was in effect a disaster waiting to happen.
The upgrade of the street lighting indicates that they took this on board too. Even if part of a general civic revamp, I'll bet it was speeded up.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 01, 2014, 01:33:06 PM
Clarence Mitchell
"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 01, 2014, 01:34:44 PM
Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2014, 01:40:38 PM
Prof David Barclay, one of Britain's top forensic consultants said: "I think it's impossible for somebody to get in and out, through that window without leaving a forensic trace. Apart from anything else, the window sills in that area are covered in green lichen. The minute you try and scrape over the window sills you would have left marks and we know that the scenes of crime lady, the next morning, was looking for exactly that."
Oh dearie me ... the window ledge of 5a WAS NOT "covered with green lichen" ... just another forum myth. Why do you keep on repeating them?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on September 01, 2014, 01:44:59 PM
I have watched that excellent video a number of times and these four guys made quite a few pertinent points considering the information available to them at the time.
I have often wondered how outraged would they have been if they had had the access to the information in files which was not available to the general public till the following year.
Dialogue from the DISPATCHES programme The Search for Madeleine at 45:00
Professor Dave Barclayforensic scientist
“We really need to wait until we get the actual results.
I’ve seen comments that the FSS have said this or that – I worked for them for twenty odd years, I never knew any forensic scientist to give details of case results in a live case.
So I think – I hate to say this – possibly quite a lot of it has been made up by the media.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJLmyakzeE
... and as we all know, sources 'close to the investigation' were working like mad on the disinformation agenda.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Jean-Pierre on September 01, 2014, 04:10:37 PM
I have watched that excellent video a number of times and these four guys made quite a few pertinent points considering the information available to them at the time.
I have often wondered how outraged would they have been if they had had the access to the information in files which was not available to the general public till the following year.
Dialogue from the DISPATCHES programme The Search for Madeleine at 45:00
Professor Dave Barclayforensic scientist
“We really need to wait until we get the actual results.
I’ve seen comments that the FSS have said this or that – I worked for them for twenty odd years, I never knew any forensic scientist to give details of case results in a live case.
So I think – I hate to say this – possibly quite a lot of it has been made up by the media.” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJLmyakzeE
... and as we all know, sources 'close to the investigation' were working like mad on the disinformation agenda.
And still being swallowed hook, line and sinker in certain quarters...... &%+((£
@)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 01, 2014, 04:12:47 PM
As former Detective Chief Superintendant Chris Stevenson told Dispatches at 11:20
"You can't rule out this was a chance abduction ...
You can't rule out the possibility that somebody had targetted her having watched what happened on previous nights and set in place a plan to remove that child for whatever reason."
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=InJLmyakzeE
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 01, 2014, 05:51:04 PM
The window could have been opened in case the abductor needed to escape if someone came into the room and blocked the door.
It would take 10 seconds to go through the door grab Madeleine and take her back out. Skinny man had to get through the window but first get to it and raise noisy shutters with kids in the room. The village idiot would not do that when the front door is next to the bedroom door. Wasting time is not an option with regular checks going on! In and out quickly job done. 9pm Matt get back from check. Gerry leaves. 9:10 Jane leaves 9:25 Matt/Russ leaves etc. An abductor was doing what? Opening windows and shutters and making himself at home @)(++(*
"I remember going into Kate and Gerry's err bedroom with Gerry and he'd perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something, and then he, you know flung him, flung himself on the floor and just you know kicking the floor and just with, you know, she's gone, she's gone!" (DP)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 02, 2014, 07:05:39 PM
It would take 10 seconds to go through the door grab Madeleine and take her back out. Skinny man had to get through the window but first get to it and raise noisy shutters with kids in the room. The village idiot would not do that when the front door is next to the bedroom door. Wasting time is not an option with regular checks going on! In and out quickly job done. 9pm Matt get back from check. Gerry leaves. 9:10 Jane leaves 9:25 Matt/Russ leaves etc. An abductor was doing what? Opening windows and shutters and making himself at home @)(++(*
Snipped...
The problem with going out via the front door was that you couldn't check to see whether the carpark was clear to go across by just peeping out of the door as it was so deeply recessed. So you would be going out 'blind' and by the time you did have a view of the whole car park, anyone crossing would also have a view of you - carrying a child. Also once an intruder was in the bedroom he would no longer have any idea whether anyone was heading back from the restaurant either to 5A or to another apartment.
We don't know what the intruders intentions were or how long he intended to stay or whether he was going to administer drugs.
IMO there are several reasons for opening the shutters/window.
1. As an extra escape route from the apartment which would avoid confrontation with anyone who may have returned and was coming in via the patio doors.
2. As a means of checking to see if the car park was clear before going out via the front door and to be able to better hear any noises coming from the car park.
3. As an attempt to hide the fact that the intruder had a key.
If the intruder was a man acting on his own, then I can see how any of the above would be seen as advantageous by him.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 02, 2014, 08:37:27 PM
The problem with going out via the front door was that you couldn't check to see whether the carpark was clear to go across by just peeping out of the door as it was so deeply recessed. So you would be going out 'blind' and by the time you did have a view of the whole car park, anyone crossing would also have a view of you - carrying a child. Also once an intruder was in the bedroom he would no longer have any idea whether anyone was heading back from the restaurant either to 5A or to another apartment.
We don't know what the intruders intentions were or how long he intended to stay or whether he was going to administer drugs.
IMO there are several reasons for opening the shutters/window.
1. As an extra escape route from the apartment which would avoid confrontation with anyone who may have returned and was coming in via the patio doors.
2. As a means of checking to see if the car park was clear before going out via the front door and to be able to better hear any noises coming from the car park.
3. As an attempt to hide the fact that the intruder had a key.
If the intruder was a man acting on his own, then I can see how any of the above would be seen as advantageous by him.
He opened the window with a child in his arms and somebody was in the car park looking at him thinking what's this dumbass upto @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 02, 2014, 09:11:21 PM
He opened the window with a child in his arms and somebody was in the car park looking at him thinking what's this dumbass upto @)(++(*
No - he would leave her in her bed whilst he checked the carpark. No need to take her with him to the window to do that. Then if he could see that all was clear - pick her up and quickly leave by the front door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 02, 2014, 09:17:00 PM
No - he would leave her in her bed whilst he checked the carpark. No need to take her with him to the window to do that. Then if he could see that all was clear - pick her up and quickly leave by the front door.
That wouldn't happen in a million years.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 02, 2014, 09:24:42 PM
I thought the story was-let's all try and sing from the same hymn sheet here.
I thought it was a paedo gang or gypsies ( dead people) and did someone not have a key and was there not an unlocked door...Oh Bother it's too complicated. Sounds a bit like the Flintstones at the end with the cat getting kicked out the door to go back in through the window...
quote "I remember going into Kate and Gerry's err bedroom with Gerry and he'd perhaps you know fling a cupboard open and just have a look and, ah you know and just shut the door and you know in a vein, desperate hope that she might have been err you know in, in the wardrobe or something "unquote
Yes, maybe Maddie was hiding with her mums working clothes which had cadaver odour in the wardrobe before she was 'abducted'.... just a thought.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 02, 2014, 09:55:04 PM
In my opinion your theory of what happened that night and the timeline you provided is far, far less likely. I'm pretty certain most sensible people would agree with me.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 02, 2014, 10:37:02 PM
Don't take my word for it..this is professor David Barclay..
JS: Professor Dave Barclay is a leading international forensic scientist. He developed best practice in the UK. As well as the Omagh bombing, he's advised in 225 cold case murders in the last 6 years. From the photos he concludes the McCanns would not have been able to see an intruder from their restaurant table. But would an intruder have avoided being spotted by one of Madeleine's parents or their friends on their regular visits to Madeleine's bedroom?
DB: It would be easy for someone to get in and out of there without arousing any attention.
CS: And with the insecurity, we know that the time required to go in there, remove a child... you could be in and out in less than a minute.
So there's there's the experts opinion and then theres "skunk man's " opinion... I know which one I'm going with
A team of British crime specialists who have scrutinised the Madeleine McCann case claim there are inconsistencies in her parents' version of events.
The retired experts believe there is a question mark over Kate's response when she discovered the four-year-old was missing.
Forensic scientist Professor David Barclay, part of the four-man team who reviewed the case for Channel Four's Dispatches show, said: "We examined all of the available evidence and the conclusion we came to was that there appeared to be some significant inconsistencies.
"One thing we looked for was any sign of 'staging', the term we use for the actions of someone who has committed a crime and wants to 'stage it' to appear someone else has done it.
"The first words apparently spoken by Kate McCann when she discovered Madeleine had vanished were significant. She is supposed to have said 'They've taken her, they've taken her' - which seems a strange choice of phrase.
"I don't think that would have been my first reaction if my child had gone missing."
Prof Barclay also questioned the McCanns' claims that an abductor got into their Praia da Luz holiday flat through the back shutters.
He said: "We checked the scene of the crime and it struck us immediately how unlikely it would be for anyone to try and access the apartment through the back windows. The shutters there were firmly shut and couldn't be opened and the car park behind the flat was overlooked.
"We're not saying it was impossible to have gained entry that way, but with all of our collected years of experience to us it seemed highly unlikely and a very implausible scenario.
"It could be that claim is consistent with staging, but without full knowledge of all of the facts in the case it would be impossible to say for sure."
Prof Barclay visited the crime scene along with ex-Detective Chief Superintendent Chris Stevenson, the man who caught Soham killer Ian Huntley and psychological profiler David Canter.
The will seen on tonight's show visiting key sites and seeing footage of the police in action.
Prof Barclay, 62, added: "There has been a tendency to criticise the Portuguese police but on the whole they did a pretty good job.
"However, they made two big mistakes. Firstly, they did not seal of the crime scene anywhere nearly quick enough. Secondly, in my opinion they were not aggressive enough with the McCanns in the first stage of the investigation.
"It is actually for the parents' benefit in cases like this that the police tackle them robustly and demand a comprehensive account of their movements during the relevant timeframe."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 02, 2014, 11:29:45 PM
A team of British crime specialists who have scrutinised the Madeleine McCann case claim there are inconsistencies in her parents' version of events.
The retired experts believe there is a question mark over Kate's response when she discovered the four-year-old was missing.
Forensic scientist Professor David Barclay, part of the four-man team who reviewed the case for Channel Four's Dispatches show, said: "We examined all of the available evidence and the conclusion we came to was that there appeared to be some significant inconsistencies.
"One thing we looked for was any sign of 'staging', the term we use for the actions of someone who has committed a crime and wants to 'stage it' to appear someone else has done it.
"The first words apparently spoken by Kate McCann when she discovered Madeleine had vanished were significant. She is supposed to have said 'They've taken her, they've taken her' - which seems a strange choice of phrase.
"I don't think that would have been my first reaction if my child had gone missing."
Prof Barclay also questioned the McCanns' claims that an abductor got into their Praia da Luz holiday flat through the back shutters.
He said: "We checked the scene of the crime and it struck us immediately how unlikely it would be for anyone to try and access the apartment through the back windows. The shutters there were firmly shut and couldn't be opened and the car park behind the flat was overlooked.
"We're not saying it was impossible to have gained entry that way, but with all of our collected years of experience to us it seemed highly unlikely and a very implausible scenario.
"It could be that claim is consistent with staging, but without full knowledge of all of the facts in the case it would be impossible to say for sure."
Prof Barclay visited the crime scene along with ex-Detective Chief Superintendent Chris Stevenson, the man who caught Soham killer Ian Huntley and psychological profiler David Canter.
The will seen on tonight's show visiting key sites and seeing footage of the police in action.
Prof Barclay, 62, added: "There has been a tendency to criticise the Portuguese police but on the whole they did a pretty good job.
"However, they made two big mistakes. Firstly, they did not seal of the crime scene anywhere nearly quick enough. Secondly, in my opinion they were not aggressive enough with the McCanns in the first stage of the investigation.
"It is actually for the parents' benefit in cases like this that the police tackle them robustly and demand a comprehensive account of their movements during the relevant timeframe."
Information from a press report dated ... October 18th 2007 ... is perhaps a tad out of date. Events have progressed somewhat since then.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 30, 2014, 12:33:28 AM
Raising the shutters with the strap is loud even if done carefully. Please note this stage is done by reaching in after sliding the window open. Therefore the full noise of the shutter mechanism enters the room. I recommend the video by Heriberto, he does this stage (reaching in and operating the strap) fairly gently, yet the noise inside the room, as you can hear when you listen to his video, is very loud.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2014, 11:06:53 AM
Raising the shutters with the strap is loud even if done carefully. Please note this stage is done by reaching in after sliding the window open. Therefore the full noise of the shutter mechanism enters the room. I recommend the video by Heriberto, he does this stage (reaching in and operating the strap) fairly gently, yet the noise inside the room, as you can hear when you listen to his video, is very loud.
I appreciate what you are saying Pegasus, BUT in one of the statements (sorry dont know which one but maybe Gerrys?) it says that the shutters were open unevenly. That equates to them having been pushed up from outside, rather than being strap pulled up. It also states that they were open about a hands width ... and I cant remember whether that was at the smaller gap end or the wider gap end.
It is quite possible that the pulley mechanism wasn't used at all. That the shutters were lifted a little whilst the window was closed. Then the sound would be minimal within the room. As you say sliding the window open would be very quiet.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 30, 2014, 11:12:11 AM
I appreciate what you are saying Pegasus, BUT in one of the statements (sorry dont know which one but maybe Gerrys?) it says that the shutters were open unevenly. That equates to them having been pushed up from outside, rather than being strap pulled up. It also states that they were open about a hands width ... and I cant remember whether that was at the smaller gap end or the wider gap end.
It is quite possible that the pulley mechanism wasn't used at all. That the shutters were lifted a little whilst the window was closed. Then the sound would be minimal within the room. As you say sliding the window open would be very quiet.
I believe for the shutters to stay open the strap inside would have to have been used.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 30, 2014, 11:44:57 AM
I believe for the shutters to stay open the strap inside would have to have been used.
I wonder, if they were jammed at an angle? If the pulley was used then they would have gone up smoothly and horizontally. They would not have been at an angle.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 30, 2014, 11:51:47 AM
I wonder, if they were jammed at an angle? If the pulley was used then they would have gone up smoothly and horizontally. They would not have been at an angle.
No because didn't Gerry push them up and down from the outside immediately after Kate alerted?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 30, 2014, 11:59:32 AM
No because didn't Gerry push them up and down from the outside immediately after Kate alerted?
The position of Dr Kate McCann's fingerprints confirm that she leaned out which would seem to imply that the shutter was raised to at least above her head height when she first discovered them to be open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 30, 2014, 03:05:27 PM
The position of Dr Kate McCann's fingerprints confirm that she leaned out which would seem to imply that the shutter was raised to at least above her head height when she first discovered them to be open.
It does say in the files that the shutter was fully up. If they are raised slowly they make little sound.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on October 01, 2014, 12:44:53 AM
It does say in the files that the shutter was fully up. If they are raised slowly they make little sound.
Somewhere, Angelo, it says that the shutter was raised at an angle with the gap [ I think at the narrower end] being about a hands width. I feel sure of that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on October 01, 2014, 01:04:54 AM
Somewhere, Angelo, it says that the shutter was raised at an angle with the gap [ I think at the narrower end] being about a hands width. I feel sure of that.
Then you can provide a cite sadie ?
The only two instances I remember the blinds being described as 'at an angle' is whe Diane Webster tried to open them on May 3rd and they twisted and when reporters where caught trying to raise the shutter and they again twisted and hung obliquely from from their casing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on October 01, 2014, 01:23:52 AM
The only two instances I remember the blinds being described as 'at an angle' is whe Diane Webster tried to open them on May 3rd and they twisted and when reporters where caught trying to raise the shutter and they again twisted and hung obliquely from from their casing.
I dont read statements for cites any more Faith. My eyes will not allow it.
But it was somewhere. I read it recently
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2014, 09:59:43 AM
and there is not one solitary piece of evidence there was.
If anyone on these forums was capable of 'proving' anything the Met would not be required to spend time looking for proof of anything, and at this moment in time that is confirmed to be an abductor. I think you should recognise that when you employ your rather juvenile demands to 'prove' whatever it is on whatever thread for which you don't have a counter argument.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on October 01, 2014, 07:38:14 PM
If anyone on these forums was capable of 'proving' anything the Met would not be required to spend time looking for proof of anything, and at this moment in time that is confirmed to be an abductor. I think you should recognise that when you employ your rather juvenile demands to 'prove' whatever it is on whatever thread for which you don't have a counter argument.
It's not juvenile to ask for evidence or proof that a third party was in the apartment.
Without that or the ALTERNATIVE the case will never be solved.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 01, 2014, 10:41:04 PM
It's not juvenile to ask for evidence or proof that a third party was in the apartment.
Without that or the ALTERNATIVE the case will never be solved.
Of course it is.
At risk of repeating myself, how on earth is it possible for armchair detectives to have the proof you constantly demand?
You really are deluded if you think our opinions count for anything in the real world and will lead to ‘solving’ what happened to Madeleine.
The people who will solve this case if they are allowed are the Met and the PJ … both of whom are actively investigating not Madeleine’s parents … not their friends … but criminal\s who entered the McCann apartment seven years ago and abducted Madeleine McCann.
They are not doing that off the top of their heads ... they are following evidence.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on October 02, 2014, 01:06:25 AM
It never ceases to amaze me that so many people expect chapter and verse of what Scotland Yard and The PJ are doing. You ain't going to get it.
I can see possibilities, but I prefer to keep those to myself, because I could be right. And that won't help anyone.
In the meantime the sceptics are only helping because they are lulling the real culprits into a false sense of security. Keep up the good work.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 02, 2014, 05:57:28 PM
I appreciate what you are saying Pegasus, BUT in one of the statements (sorry dont know which one but maybe Gerrys?) it says that the shutters were open unevenly. That equates to them having been pushed up from outside, rather than being strap pulled up. It also states that they were open about a hands width ... and I cant remember whether that was at the smaller gap end or the wider gap end.
It is quite possible that the pulley mechanism wasn't used at all. That the shutters were lifted a little whilst the window was closed. Then the sound would be minimal within the room. As you say sliding the window open would be very quiet.
KM found the shutter fully raised and even. This is because the person outside, after directly (hands on base of shutter) pushing the shutter up a little (which is all that is possible directly), had then, holding shutter slightly raised with one hand, slid the window open and reached in from outside with his free arm to operate the strap to open the shutter fully and evenly.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 02, 2014, 06:07:13 PM
KM found the shutter fully raised and even. This is because the person outside, after directly (hands on base of shutter) pushing the shutter up a little (which is all that is possible directly), had then, holding shutter slightly raised with one hand, slid the window open and reached in from outside with his free arm to operate the strap to open the shutter fully and evenly.
Heri in his video pushed it up quite a long way. Petermac did too in his video pushed it up even further. With all due respect, I dont think you are right there pegasus
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on October 02, 2014, 08:02:24 PM
Heri in his video pushed it up quite a long way. Petermac did too in his video pushed it up even further. With all due respect, I dont think you are right there pegasus
Heri video shows the 3 stage method very well. Stage one is to lift the shutter enough to reach under it with the free arm. 10cm would be plenty, Heri raises it more than that unnecessarily. Either way, the 3 stage method works, and is IMO exactly how the window and shutter were opened, from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 02, 2014, 08:34:17 PM
Easy. First to recognise that KMs account is truthful - she genuinely found the window and shutter open. Second that the forensics indicate that no third-party entered the apartment. Therefore a third party, who never ever entered the apartment, must have opened the window and shutter from outside. Heri's video shows the 3 stage method by which this is possible. The apparently illogical decision to then not climb in, is actually logical, and can only be because he was disturbed at that exact moment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 02, 2014, 08:36:17 PM
Easy. First I recognised that KMs account is truthful - she genuinly found the window and shutter open.Second I see in the forensics no indication that no third-party entered the apartment. Therefore a third party, who never ever entered the apartment, must have opened the window and shutter from outside. Heri's video shows the 3 stage method by which this is possible. The apparently illogical decision to then not climb in, is perfectly logical, and can only be because he was disturbed at that exact moment.
That's where you are going wrong.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on October 02, 2014, 08:44:14 PM
Easy. First to recognise that KMs account is truthful - she genuinely found the window and shutter open. Second that the forensics indicate that no third-party entered the apartment. Therefore a third party, who never ever entered the apartment, must have opened the window and shutter from outside. Heri's video shows the 3 stage method by which this is possible. The apparently illogical decision to then not climb in, is actually logical, and can only be because he was disturbed at that exact moment.
Thanks for coming back Pegasus, but the scene was all forensically messed up ... and there certainly were things found ... hairs? ... I can no longer remember what ... but things were found that the PJ could not match to any known person on the scene... or that was normally allowed access to 5A
Personally, I dont think that we can be at all certian that no-one entered the apartment because of these thngs.
I am being picky again sorry, but I think it is important that we dont make assumptions.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 02, 2014, 09:31:41 PM
Thanks for coming back Pegasus, but the scene was all forensically messed up ... and there certainly were things found ... hairs? ... I can no longer remember what ... but things were found that the PJ could not match to any known person on the scene... or that was normally allowed access to 5A
Personally, I dont think that we can be at all certian that no-one entered the apartment because of these thngs.
I am being picky again sorry, but I think it is important that we dont make assumptions.
I think that, on opening that particular window and shutter from outside, the almost inevitable outcome was that he would be immediately disturbed, and therefore would not enter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on October 02, 2014, 09:43:16 PM
I think that, on opening that particular window and shutter from outside, the almost inevitable outcome was that he would be immediately disturbed, and therefore would not enter.
So the child might have gone out of the front door to see what it was and left it ajar, causing the through draft later, when kate checked. The front door would have slammed shut at the same time as the bedroom door. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It gets too complicated when you say she went to another room, and then what happened?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 02, 2014, 10:01:28 PM
So the child might have gone out of the front door to see what it was and left it ajar, causing the through draft later, when kate checked. The front door would have slammed shut at the same time as the bedroom door. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ It gets too complicated when you say she went to another room, and then what happened?
IMO the front door is towards the perceived danger. The lounge end of the open plan area, or the south bedroom, are away from the perceived danger.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on October 02, 2014, 10:33:14 PM
I think that, on opening that particular window and shutter from outside, the almost inevitable outcome was that he would be immediately disturbed, and therefore would not enter.
I dont follow your reasoning Pegasus.
Why would he be almost immediately disturbed ? It doesn't make sense, to me.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on October 02, 2014, 11:07:05 PM
In he absence of any accurate measurements of the door being moved to a certain degree by each person 'listening' at the door- it just blows the whole story out of the water really.
The way 'we ' left it... what way was it left?
Gerry looked in and saw Maddie, did he touch the door?- did he notice it had been moved from when 'we' left it?
How did kate know it was not the way 'we' left it? did she ask Gerry if he moved it? Gerry never mentions the door being moved...
'Jemmied shutters' and 'whooshing' are all an attempt to create a scene or an image in peoples heads to deflect the responsibility of the parents disgraceful and despicable behavour towards their children's well being.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 02, 2014, 11:33:45 PM
I was a victim of a robbery at a cash point recently. My girlfriend was right by my side.
I was interviewed within 20 minutes of the event happening. I gave my statement, and then listened to my girlfriend give hers. She contradicted me on the clothing, the perp's height, accent, and about 10 other small details.
If you analysed our statements, you might conclude that we made the whole thing up given the spate of contradictions in there.
OR, you might realise accounts are often blurred, and people are fallible as far as the accounts they give.
That's perfectly understandable - unless you're one of the McCanns or their friends, then your statements must marry up exactly, or it's evidence that you lied, according to our resident "sceptics".
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2014, 05:02:15 AM
I think that, on opening that particular window and shutter from outside, the almost inevitable outcome was that he would be immediately disturbed, and therefore would not enter.
Nothing inevitable about being disturbed, was there? A slight to fair possibility, but he had an abundance of quite long periods when he would not have been disturbed. He was much less likely to have been disturbed, it is a possibility however
I think that it is dangerous to state things as almost facts, when they are not.
The danger is pegasus, that they become myths .... and given time and thousands of people reading them, they become "facts" ... and that is one of the ways Injustice happens.
I am sorry, I am being picky again, but I think it is an important point that stuff that we dont actually know, should NOT be presented as almost fact.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on October 03, 2014, 01:50:57 PM
I am sorry, I am being picky again, but I think it is an important point that stuff that we dont actually know, should NOT be presented as almost fact.
Hear, hear, that's the abduction put to bed then.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on October 03, 2014, 06:22:13 PM
Clearly SY haven't a baldy clue who dun it if anyone and with Redwood retiring soon I don't think they care for sure.
Three hundred and fifty four days since Crimewatch. Three hundred and fifty four days without Smithman revealing himself. Three hundred and fifty four days without anyone being charged.
Remember the Mirror and days without WMD?. We should start our own similar chart perhaps.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 03, 2014, 07:09:41 PM
Back on topic, I don't subscribe to the theory that a stranger opened the shutter and window and climbed in as for one thing there were no scuff marks or smears anywhere on or around the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 07:11:59 PM
Back on topic, I don't subscribe to the theory that a stranger open the shutter and window and climbed in as for one thing there were no scuff marks on smears anywhere on or around the window.
The bedroom door had moved before Gerry's check, that's why he looked in, the window wasn't open then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=OZ8jmdWlB8Y#t=746
And Kate debunked the sliding door herself. http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=WLvnfcl-Zkg#t=1370
An 'abductor' requires a key to the front door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on October 03, 2014, 10:30:39 PM
The forensics don't lie unfortunately so nobody climbed in that window. That's not to say it wasn't opened from the outside or even the inside for that matter. The simple truth is the police just don't know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on October 03, 2014, 10:36:53 PM
Back on topic, I don't subscribe to the theory that a stranger opened the shutter and window and climbed in as for one thing there were no scuff marks or smears anywhere on or around the window.
I'm sure I could climb through a window without scuffing or smearing the surrounding paintwork, an experienced burglar would surely be able to do likewise?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 10:39:32 PM
I'm sure I could climb through a window without scuffing or smearing the surrounding paintwork, an experienced burglar would surely be able to do likewise?
....and then he closed the window & shutters behind himself before hiding during Gerry's check.
Sounds likely doesn't it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 03, 2014, 10:39:53 PM
I'm sure I could climb through a window without scuffing or smearing the surrounding paintwork, an experienced burglar would surely be able to do likewise?
Is there no end to this man's talents...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 03, 2014, 10:54:30 PM
The forensics don't lie unfortunately so nobody climbed in that window. That's not to say it wasn't opened from the outside or even the inside for that matter. The simple truth is the police just don't know.
If they haven't worked it out then they are in the wrong job.
But possible to do so without scuffing and smearing the window surroundings surely?
What evidence was found of the many burglaries in the area? Did the cleaner who cleaned the windows the day before, leave rubber glove marks anywhere? ..... Burglars and abductors, would have to ensure that they left no evidence, surely, otherwise they would get caught.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 03, 2014, 11:52:39 PM
What evidence was found of the many burglaries in the area? Did the cleaner who cleaned the windows the day before, leave rubber glove marks anywhere? ..... Burglars and abductors, would have to ensure that they left no evidence, surely, otherwise they would get caught.
Maintenance had been called to fix the shutter I think on the back bedroom door ... don't see a forensic report on their fingerprints or other tracess left.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on October 03, 2014, 11:56:37 PM
Maintenance had been called to fix the shutter I think on the back bedroom door ... don't see a forensic report on their fingerprints or other tracess left.
Absolutely, why were they not found, or were they eliminated because of being OC workers?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 04, 2014, 12:01:48 AM
Why would they be testing a back door, when it's claimed it was the front window that's been tampered with?
That must make sense in fantasy abduction world I suppose, that's why I don't get it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on October 04, 2014, 12:09:14 AM
normally, usually, procedure, in suspected, criminal activities etc ,Forensic evidence is collected from all exterior doors and the parents bedroom had external doors. Comprehend?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 04, 2014, 12:37:13 AM
normally, usually, procedure, in suspected, criminal activities etc ,Forensic evidence is collected from all exterior doors and the parents bedroom had external doors. Comprehend?
It was the front window that was used, wasn't it?
You think it would have been a good idea for the cops to be testing all the fixtures & fittings whilst the abductor makes off with his prize?
Time was precious wasn't it, a missing childs life was at stake & Jane had seen her being carried away, hadn't she?
Yet neither parent had bothered to even try calling the police in the first place, nor did they cooperate fully with them later.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on October 04, 2014, 12:43:02 AM
You think it would have been a good idea for the cops to be testing all the fixtures & fittings whilst the abductor makes off with his prize?
Time was precious wasn't it, a missing childs life was at stake & Jane had seen her being carried away, hadn't she?
Yet neither parent had bothered to even try calling the police in the first place, nor did they cooperate fully with them later.
Scenes of crime officers, deal with evidence on the scene only, they don't chase criminals and by the time they arrived a criminal would be long gone anyway.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 04, 2014, 01:04:13 AM
I think there was no forensic work done at all in the south bedroom.
There wasn't much point though was there?
She'd been taken out the window quite easily.
In an ideal world, yes, they'd have microscopically investigated every square millimetre of the entire apartment & surroundings.
In reality, time didn't allow for that, they were searching for a living child who'd been taken out the front & in the direction of Mr Murats house, whom a bunch of 'em pointed the finger at.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on October 04, 2014, 01:15:18 AM
I think there was zero forensic examination of the south bedroom.
unless some evidence was found in the bedroom doors as was found in the main french windows, we probably wouldn't know. If it wasn't checked then all I can say is that was a really bad inspection of the scene. The scene of a crime is probably the most important part of a forensic inspection.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on October 04, 2014, 01:30:56 AM
"I'm not going into the detail, but I can say that Kate and Gerry are firmly of the view that somebody got into the apartment and took Madeleine out the window as their means of escape, and to do that they did not necessarily have to tamper with anything. They got out of the window fairly easily."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 04, 2014, 02:43:50 AM
unless some evidence was found in the bedroom doors as was found in the main french windows, we probably wouldn't know. If it wasn't checked then all I can say is that was a really bad inspection of the scene. The scene of a crime is probably the most important part of a forensic inspection.
There are lists of all the hairs gathered by forensics on 4th May and they are all I think they are only looked in the north bedroom and hall and lounge. I don't recall any being even looked for in south bedroom. There are lists and photos of all places examined for fingerprints on 4th May and I think they only did the north bedroom window/shutter, and the lounge balcony door, that's it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on October 10, 2014, 07:23:20 PM
We have to look at the established facts pertaining to the window and shutter of the children's bedroom which are...
1. The shutter was fully raised with no sign of any damage.
2. A full and valid forensic examination was carried out.
3. There was no evidence of any intruder having entered or exited via the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: ferryman on October 10, 2014, 07:25:56 PM
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on October 11, 2014, 02:35:36 AM
When Kate says the curtains whooshed open. How open were they? Seems if they were fully closed seems extremely unlikely that an intruder would go out that way then close them from the outside. Also if he went out via the front door he would have to of closed them before he left... I guess you could open the shutters though by just reaching through the curtains slit/gap without actually drawing them apart...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on October 11, 2014, 04:35:38 AM
When Kate says the curtains whooshed open. How open were they? Seems if they were fully closed seems extremely unlikely that an intruder would go out that way then close them from the outside. Also if he went out via the front door he would have to of closed them before he left... I guess you could open the shutters though by just reaching through the curtains slit/gap without actually drawing them apart...
The 'intruder' came in the front door according to the investigation.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on October 11, 2014, 04:37:22 AM
When Kate says the curtains whooshed open. How open were they? Seems if they were fully closed seems extremely unlikely that an intruder would go out that way then close them from the outside. Also if he went out via the front door he would have to of closed them before he left... I guess you could open the shutters though by just reaching through the curtains slit/gap without actually drawing them apart...
I now think it was just the lightweight net curtains (not the partly opened heavier main curtains) which were seen being blown in by the wind.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on October 11, 2014, 08:15:17 AM
Very observant. Thanks. Looking at the PJ photos I think you are correct.
Now that is strange. The lounge side window had net curtains (foto 12). The dining area side window had net curtains (foto 12). The kitchen side window didn't. The lounge to balcony sliding door had net curtains (foto 11). The south bedroom to balcony door had net curtains (foto 17). See photos here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html So why did this north bedroom window have no net curtains? Or are they hidden behind the main heavy curtains?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: DCI on October 11, 2014, 10:03:11 AM
Very observant. Thanks. Looking at the PJ photos I think you are correct.
Now that is strange. The lounge side window had net curtains (foto 12). The dining area side window had net curtains (foto 12). The kitchen side window didn't. The lounge to balcony sliding door had net curtains (foto 11). The south bedroom to balcony door had net curtains (foto 17). See photos here http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html (http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html) So why did this north bedroom window have no net curtains? Or are they hidden behind the main heavy curtains?
There are net curtains Pegasus, see photo 9. You can see to the right of the ruler, on the windowcill.
on the Madeliene Is Here documentry it shows the net curtains behind the long curtains billowing into the room as Kate describes what happened...
I agree, it was the short net curtains which billowed in the wind and not the full length curtains which were for all intents and purposes trapped between the spare bed and the wall.. Well spotted 8((()*/
Are we all agreed then, there is no evidence that any intruder climbed in and out of that window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 12, 2014, 08:09:47 PM
I agree, it was the short net curtains which billowed in the wind and not the full length curtains which were for all intents and purposes trapped between the spare bed and the wall.. Well spotted 8((()*/
Are we all agreed then, there is no evidence that any intruder climbed in and out of that window?
I think you could safely say that; just as you could say there is no evidence that an intruder did not climb in and out of the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on October 12, 2014, 08:32:52 PM
I think you could safely say that; just as you could say there is no evidence that an intruder did not climb in and out of the window.
Kate left evidence on the window. There's no evidence of anybody going through the window. Thumb prints reveal the shutters were raised from the inside by crime experts. No abductor would risk leaving evidence by opening window/shutters from the inside when the door was hidden from the car park and a quicker exit. There's no evidence of abduction. This case is the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann not Abduction.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on October 13, 2014, 07:50:46 PM
Kate left evidence on the window. There's no evidence of anybody going through the window. Thumb prints reveal the shutters were raised from the inside by crime experts. No abductor would risk leaving evidence by opening window/shutters from the inside when the door was hidden from the car park and a quicker exit. There's no evidence of abduction. This case is the Disappearance of Madeleine McCann not Abduction.
That's what you say but the experts disagree with you and agree with the mccanns
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 13, 2014, 07:53:55 PM
Do you have a photo by the PJ forensics team of this evidence?
I believe that may be the infamous one of the technician taking samples the only protective clothing in evidence being one glove.
However, if the shutter was raised from the inside there would be no fingerprints on it from inside the room ... as the mechanism is controlled by the cord at the side.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 14, 2014, 07:48:44 PM
Do you have a photo by the PJ forensics team of this evidence?
VESTIGES COLLECTED 5….. Fingerprints….Inside interior window of the children’s bedroom…..DBT…..Suf
Observations: The fingerprint traces collected are identified as being the middle finger of the left hand (3x) and forefinger of the left hand (2x), of the missing girl’s mother, The fingerprint inspection was only carried out on the inside of the window because it was night time, the location was sealed and preserved so that light conditions would permit the inspection of the residence to be finalised.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 09:02:45 PM
@Pathfinder thanks, her 5 fingerprints which you posted were not on the window handle, and not on any part of the aluminium, they were on the inside surface of the glass.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 14, 2014, 09:39:08 PM
@Pathfinder thanks, her 5 fingerprints which you posted were not on the window handle, and not on any part of the aluminium, they were on the inside surface of the glass.
… and commensurate with Dr McCann’s description of leaning out of the open window when she discovered Madeleine was gone.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 14, 2014, 10:15:15 PM
… and commensurate with Dr McCann’s description of leaning out of the open window when she discovered Madeleine was gone.
Precisely.
Viewed from inside, it is the right half of the sliding window which was open. Someone leaning out of that open window to look left and right, would place their right hand on the wall, and their left hand on the window.
The left palm would lean on the aluminium frame of the already opened sliding section of the window, and their left fingers, extending further, would leave fingerprints on the inside surface of the glass of that sliding section.
And that is exactly what the 5 fingerprints are - left fingers on the inside surface of the glass.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 15, 2014, 06:06:58 PM
That's what you say but the experts disagree with you and agree with the mccanns
I wasn't aware SY have carried out forensics at 5a, have you a cite?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: colombosstogey on November 02, 2014, 04:49:51 AM
Its ludicrous to think the window was used why? First off here we go again there was a bed DIRECTLY under it. So who would use it to go out? They would have to open the window with a child in the arms stand on the bed balance etc ....... it would leave DNA everywhere unless the guy was wearing a full on protective suit.
To open it from the outside didnt i read the other day that this particular blind cant be opened from the outside. It can be lifted up by about an inch but then the ratchet system stops it from being pushed up as you have to use the internal system to do that, a bit like a seat belt? Besides which they make a noise.
No I have always believed the child was taken out of the front door. Its easy and it makes sense.
Lets face it anyway, if someone is clever enough to drug 3 children, take one without any traces, or anyone seeing them, and the child is never found, then that same someone is cleverer enough to procure a key.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on November 02, 2014, 08:27:44 AM
Its ludicrous to think the window was used why? First off here we go again there was a bed DIRECTLY under it. So who would use it to go out? They would have to open the window with a child in the arms stand on the bed balance etc ....... it would leave DNA everywhere unless the guy was wearing a full on protective suit.
To open it from the outside didnt i read the other day that this particular blind cant be opened from the outside. It can be lifted up by about an inch but then the ratchet system stops it from being pushed up as you have to use the internal system to do that, a bit like a seat belt? Besides which they make a noise.
No I have always believed the child was taken out of the front door. Its easy and it makes sense.
Lets face it anyway, if someone is clever enough to drug 3 children, take one without any traces, or anyone seeing them, and the child is never found, then that same someone is cleverer enough to procure a key.
The shutters do make a noise ... but in a place where hearing the noise made by shutters being raised and lowered is commonplace ... who is going to notice? Who was there to notice given the secluded situation of that window.
The shutters can be raised in less than a minute. I refer you to Heriberto's hypothesis where he does just that. He includes a sequence from Pat Brown's video showing the shutters of 5a being raised almost completely without using the internal mechanism. http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 20, 2014, 05:21:25 PM
Going back to a very basic question.
Imagine a petty thief desperate for 30 euros to buy drugs looking at this apartment. No pre-casing, just a quick check then decide whether anyone is home or not. He has seen an adult leave. Excellent this means there are probably a few bits of jewellery and maybe a camera or cash inside to steal. He listens at the only pedestrian-level window and hears silence. He listens at the front door and hears silence. He can see that there is only one low light on inside at the lounge. (And not required but he possibly knocks gently on the front door and no-one answers.
What does the petty thief decide? (A) There must be someone home. (B) Everyone is out.
Get the right answer and the rest of part one is fairly inevitable
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on November 20, 2014, 05:28:01 PM
Would he necessarily have seen anyone leave if he was near the front door and they were exiting from the patio side of the apartment?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 01:18:20 AM
Would he necessarily have seen anyone leave if he was near the front door and they were exiting from the patio side of the apartment?
The knocking on the front door is an optional feature which I am considering only because it happened prior to another nearby apartment burglary. Forget that for now.
The theory is that the man standing immediately outside the window, (who quite reasonably assumes everyone is out): (1) pulls the shutter up about 0.25 metres (little noise inside room, man can't see in) (2) slides the east half of the window open (little noise inside room, man can't see in) (3) reaches in and pulls the shutter operating strap to open shutter fully (very noisy inside room, and when completed man can see into room)
It is obvious what happens next.
The one and only thing required to understand this theory is to realise that the would-be petty thief thinks that everyone is out. If you don't agree with that and then the whole theory becomes rubbish.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 21, 2014, 01:26:31 AM
The knocking on the front door is an optional feature which I am considering only because it happened prior to another apartment burglary. Forget that for now.
The theory is that the man standing immediately outside the window: (1) pulls the shutter up about 0.25 metres (little noise inside room, man can't see in) (2) slides the east half of the window open (little noise inside room, man can't see in) (3) reaches in and pulls the shutter operating strap to open shutter fully (very noisy inside room, and when completed man can see into room)
It is obvious what happens next.
No, it's not. Where did Madeleine go?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on November 21, 2014, 01:30:38 AM
The knocking on the front door is an optional feature which I am considering only because it happened prior to another nearby apartment burglary. Forget that for now.
The theory is that the man standing immediately outside the window, (who quite reasonably assumes everyone is out): (1) pulls the shutter up about 0.25 metres (little noise inside room, man can't see in) (2) slides the east half of the window open (little noise inside room, man can't see in) (3) reaches in and pulls the shutter operating strap to open shutter fully (very noisy inside room, and when completed man can see into room)
It is obvious what happens next.
The one and only thing required to understand this theory is to realise that the would-be petty thief thinks that everyone is out. If you don't agree with that and then the whole theory becomes rubbish.
Nothing wrong with Theories. And you and Pathfinder come up with some really interesting stuff.
Oh, and neither of you take much delight in insulting anyone.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 01:37:38 AM
Think it through. You are a petty thief. About to climb in to an apartment where you were sure everyone was out, you suddenly see someone moving inside. What would you do, (1) carry on regardless, or (2) flee? Fairly obvious isn't it? Now you are much younger, wake, hear and see someone opening your window shutter. Which way would you go, (1) towards or (2) away? Ditto.
IMO 2 2
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 21, 2014, 01:56:56 AM
Think it through. You are a petty thief. About to climb in to an apartment where you were sure everyone was out, you suddenly see someone moving inside. What would you do, (1) carry on regardless, or (2) flee? Fairly obvious isn't it? Now you are much younger, wake, hear and see someone opening your window shutter. Which way would you go, (1) towards or (2) away? Ditto.
IMO 2 2
1) There were net curtains & closed fabric curtains blocking the light from entering the room from outside so the petty thief would not have been able to see the children. 2) That leaves another option - Madeleine awoke, started crying & that disturbed him.
Madeleine would not have seen someone opening the window & shutter due to the curtains- she would only have heard it. So, did she flee into her parents' bedroom, screaming for mum or dad like most children would? On finding her mum & dad missing, would she not have screamed even louder? Yet nobody heard anything - not Mrs Fenn, not the Moyse couple, not Jez, not the Tapas checkers.......
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 02:57:02 AM
1) There were net curtains & closed fabric curtains blocking the light from entering the room from outside so the petty thief would not have been able to see the children.
IMO having opened s+w the petty thief would pull curtains aside to have a look at the room he is planning to climb into.
2) That leaves another option - Madeleine awoke, started crying & that disturbed him.
Agreed on disturbed. But I think maybe by movement. IMO the natural reaction in those circumstances would be to not make noise, but to go into another room, there was a USA "kid home alone in same room as attempted entry" case where the the response was: no cry/scream, go to another room and hide.
Madeleine would not have seen someone opening the window & shutter due to the curtains- she would only have heard it.
Good point, I am not sure about the visual, but the point is if you wake up to someone opening a noisy shutter you are definitely going to hear it, whether you see it or not too is debatable (I think you would), but no matter, the obvious response is the same in either case.
screaming for mum or dad like most children would? On finding her mum & dad missing, would she not have screamed even louder? Yet nobody heard anything - not Mrs Fenn, not the Moyse couple, not Jez, not the Tapas checkers.......
Again a good point, but IMO if I wanted to not attract attention I would make as little noise as possible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 21, 2014, 03:17:02 AM
Aren't you overlooking Madeleine's natural instinct to protect her brother & sister in some way?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 03:26:53 AM
Another good point, and a nice idea, but IMO the instinctive and optimum reaction and would be to exit room to get help.
Would you just take a look at the forensic officer dusting the shutter in the attached link to C4 news video, behind John Hill at about 1min 50. http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6708-channel-4-news-4th-may-2007
I know she is probably a few inches shorter than any potential male burglar, but how easy do you think it would have been to lean in sufficiently through that window and see a child in bed on the opposite side of a darkened room - without leaving any forensic trace on the window sill or curtains? (then very considerately returning the curtains to near enough their original positions before fleeing)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 03:52:16 AM
Would you just take a look at the forensic officer dusting the shutter in the attached link to C4 news video, behind John Hill at about 1min 50. http://jillhavern.forumotion.net/t6708-channel-4-news-4th-may-2007
I know she is probably a few inches shorter than any potential male burglar, but how easy do you think it would have been to lean in sufficiently through that window and see a child in bed on the opposite side of a darkened room - without leaving any forensic trace on the window sill or curtains? (then very considerately returning the curtains to near enough their original positions before fleeing)
1st question thanks I will look and later reply. 2nd question, if you push to a side a curtain in the mid level not moving the top level, then when you release, it falls back to how it was, I tested this.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 21, 2014, 04:16:23 AM
1st question thanks I will look and later reply. 2nd question, if you push to a side a curtain in the mid level not moving the top level, then when you release, it falls back to how it was, I tested this.
Nets are usually one single curtain and difficult to draw easily along a wire or thin rail, so the intruder would have to lift it, scrunch from the bottom & hold it in one hand whilst separating the large curtains with his other hand. IMO his arms or upper body would touch the sill in doing so. Night, Pegasus.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 04:32:01 AM
Nets are usually one single curtain and difficult to draw easily along a wire or thin rail, so the intruder would have to lift it, scrunch from the bottom & hold it in one hand whilst separating the large curtains with his other hand. IMO his arms or upper body would touch the sill in doing so. Night, Pegasus.
One hand pushes net and main curtain aside. If its a single net makes no difference. Easy and little force. Going back to the basic, if a petty thief thinks everyone is out, he will try opening, and if peeps have not insured window lock button is pressed (see two statements of that) then he will open shutter and window successfully.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on November 21, 2014, 11:43:33 AM
Interesting analyses.
Well done you guys, ... but as I think I know what happened in the days afterwards, then unless I see glaring errors, I dont think that in this case, I will bother to participate except to say:
Almost certainly the abductor had a key and came in thru the front door ... and Madeleine was carried out that way too
The window was opened for other reasons. A list of reasons is posted several times elsewhere on Forum [unless whooshed, of course]
Sufficient to say that I believe that Madeleine is still alive .... and I believe that I know who took her (the head honcho, not the guys who did the actual lifting and carrying work ... they are relatively small fry imo)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 21, 2014, 11:48:33 AM
Well done you guys, ... but as I think I know what happened in the days afterwards, then unless I see glaring errors, I dont think that in this case, I will bother to participate except to say:
Almost certainly the abductor had a key and came in thru the front door ... and Madeleine was carried out that way too
The window was opened for other reasons. A list of reasons is posted several times elsewhere on Forum [unless whooshed, of course]
Sufficient to say that I believe that Madeleine is still alive .... and I believe that I know who took her (the head honcho, not the guys who did the actual lifting and carrying work ... they are relatively small fry imo)
Haven't you got the message yet sadie ?
The 'abduction' is not a fact.
and people like you have the nerve to call me 'stucky' or the equivalent.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on November 21, 2014, 12:11:37 PM
and people like you have the nerve to call me 'stucky' or the equivalent.
Now I haven't called you that, or the equivalent, for a long time. Perhaps I should start again?
I have no doubt, personally, that there was an abduction [unless you want to go into the extremely unlikely scenario that The Mccanns sold Madeleine]
And I base this on things I found out about that happened AFTER the abduction. None of you have been looking in depth [for 4 years] at where she went afterwards.
You can believe me, or not ... that is up to you.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on November 21, 2014, 12:17:57 PM
Now I haven't called you that, or the equivalent, for a long time. Perhaps I should start again?
I have no doubt, personally, that there was an abduction [unless you want to go into the extremely unlikely scenario that The Mccanns sold Madeleine]
And I base this on things I found out about that happened AFTER the abduction. None of you have been looking in depth [for 4 years] at where she went afterwards.
You can believe me, or not ... that is up to you.
A belief is not a fact.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on November 21, 2014, 12:42:01 PM
Would he necessarily have seen anyone leave if he was near the front door and they were exiting from the patio side of the apartment?
I am not sure about whether he saw an adult leaving or not. If he did it would confirm to him for certain 1) that the apartment contains stealables, and 2) that everyone is out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on November 21, 2014, 03:36:43 PM
Not sure about 2. Somebody could have just been popping out for a bottle of wine etc, leaving others in the apartment. Only extensive surveillance could ensure that the property was empty.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 21, 2014, 03:57:28 PM
Not sure about 2. Somebody could have just been popping out for a bottle of wine etc, leaving others in the apartment. Only extensive surveillance could ensure that the property was empty.
KM:
'They've been watching us over a matter of days, I'm sure, you know, they know.. you know, they must have known that Gerry had just been into the apartment and then.... you're right, there was only a small window of opportunity but.. you know..'
Not sure about 2. Somebody could have just been popping out for a bottle of wine etc, leaving others in the apartment. Only extensive surveillance could ensure that the property was empty.
In the burglars head the low unchanging level of light in the apartment is a big clue that everyone is out. If there were people still home there would be more lights on wouldn't there?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 21, 2014, 04:23:34 PM
In the burglars head the low unchanging level of light in the apartment is a big clue that everyone is out. If there were people still home there would be more lights on wouldn't there?
The intruder's only view of the light level would have been from the side of 5a through the kitchen or side living room windows, both of which are above head height prohibiting visibility of occupants. Another factor is that many people do not use full lighting when watching television after dark. Most potential intruders would be put off by any lights on in a property.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 04:38:51 PM
The intruder's only view of the light level would have been from the side of 5a through the kitchen or side living room windows, both of which are above head height prohibiting visibility of occupants. Another factor is that many people do not use full lighting when watching television after dark. Most potential intruders would be put off by any lights on in a property.
TV flicker is easily seen. Lighting in 5A was one small tablelamp in lounge, no other lights, no TV flicker.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 04:47:27 PM
Robbing holiday apartments so no need to worry about the shift worker risk. And if adults going out had left kids behind there would obviously be a babysitter and so there would be more than just one tablelamp on (also babysitter would have answered precautionary knock on door).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on November 21, 2014, 05:13:08 PM
Robbing holiday apartments so no need to worry about the shift worker risk. And if adults going out had left kids behind there would obviously be a babysitter and so there would be more than just one tablelamp on (also babysitter would have answered precautionary knock on door).
I fail to understand why you have not exercised your formidable analytical skills in the matter of the witness statements recording the people who were seen to be taking an interest in the McCann apartment, instead of trying to tailor events to suit Dr Amaral's discredited theory of parental involvement.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 05:20:52 PM
I fail to understand why you have not exercised your formidable analytical skills in the matter of the witness statements recording the people who were seen to be taking an interest in the McCann apartment, instead of trying to tailor events to suit Dr Amaral's discredited theory of parental involvement.
But I disagree with Mr Amaral's theory because it has so many big details which are wrong. I worked out part one from KM's completely truthful description of the child bedroom, how different to Mr Amarals theory can one get?
Of other people seen in area I wish we had more information about what appears to be a "precautionary knock" on 5L door on April 17th by a blondhaired man. Also interesting are 5Cbalconymen and 5Bgateman all on May 3rd.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Wonderfulspam on November 21, 2014, 05:41:47 PM
But I disagree with Mr Amaral's theory because it has so many big details which are wrong. I worked out part one from KM's completely truthful description of the child bedroom, how different to Mr Amarals theory can one get?
Of other people seen in area I wish we had more information about what appears to be a "precautionary knock" on 5L door on April 17th by a blondhaired man. Also interesting are 5Cbalconymen and 5Bgateman all on May 3rd.
Yeah right!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 21, 2014, 05:46:18 PM
I fail to understand why you have not exercised your formidable analytical skills in the matter of the witness statements recording the people who were seen to be taking an interest in the McCann apartment, instead of trying to tailor events to suit Dr Amaral's discredited theory of parental involvement.
Have you been able to discern what Pegasus's theory is beyond "the parents dunnit"?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 05:59:56 PM
Yes, and I didn't take it for granted, I worked it out, the room was genuinely found exactly as described.
I ain't buying the curtains or the door that only moved on the second time of asking, or that she wasn't lying about the window & shutters that she said she wasn't lying about.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 21, 2014, 06:31:23 PM
I posted what IMO happened in the first few seconds. Less than a minute of solution. I do not know what happened after that.
Did you? Missed it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 21, 2014, 06:45:57 PM
It appears we now have to factor in the failed attempt of an opportunist burglar occurring on the same evening as the staged abduction/planned kidnapping, all of which happened in a 90 minute period littered with apartment checks & men walking around with children in their arms or in pushchairs. And Mrs Fenn + the Moyses never heard or saw a thing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on November 21, 2014, 07:04:59 PM
Have you been able to discern what Pegasus's theory is beyond "the parents dunnit"?
Not sure if it is that Madeleine having been frightened by an attempted burglary left the apartment of her own volition to find her parents only to come to grief ... or having run from an intruder, had a fatal accident in the apartment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on November 21, 2014, 07:09:05 PM
Not sure if it is that Madeleine having been frightened by an attempted burglary left the apartment of her own volition to find her parents only to come to grief ... or having run from an intruder, had a fatal accident in the apartment.
Oh, I've got Pegasus all wrong then...I think.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on November 21, 2014, 07:23:07 PM
Not sure if it is that Madeleine having been frightened by an attempted burglary left the apartment of her own volition to find her parents only to come to grief ... or having run from an intruder, had a fatal accident in the apartment.
If the latter, what happened next ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 09:11:14 PM
"A British man at the tapas bar where the McCanns dined gave a statement saying how he spoke to an English woman who told him she had heard a “breaking noise” about the time that Madeleine was taken. His statement, however, was not passed to Portuguese police, said Goncalo Amaral." http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/248068/Kate-McCann-How-dare-they-call-me-cold Could "breaking noise" be someone raising the shutters?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 21, 2014, 09:33:26 PM
An apartment nearby was robbed while everyone was out. Two mobile phones, one video camera, and cash were taken. It was Feb 2007, about dusk. No sign of forced entry so it was assumed by owner and police it was key entry -an assumption that may be incorrect IMO. What is interesting is unlike 5G or 5L this apartment is groundfloor and has identical layout to 5A the room layout and windows and doors identical and the size and position and accessibility of window of north bedroom identical. (Collected from various sources)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on November 21, 2014, 10:29:04 PM
A lone elderly person or babysitter probably wouldn't answer the door or make any sound, especially if female.
I think it could be considered irresponsible to do so given the isolated and dark position of the door to apartment 5a.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 22, 2014, 12:45:57 AM
So between 9 and 10pm, you think an eldery person or a babysitter would not answer a knock on the door? Or would they would go to the door not open it but say loudly "who is there"?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 22, 2014, 12:51:21 AM
So between 9 and 10pm, you think an eldery person or a babysitter would not answer a knock on the door? Or would they would go to the door not open it but say loudly "who is there"?
I wouldn't, especially in a strange location or someone else's house. Then again, I wouldn't have left my children alone either.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 22, 2014, 12:55:38 AM
I wouldn't, especially in a strange location or someone else's house. Then again, I wouldn't have left my children alone either.
Going the door leaving it locked but asking from inside "who is there" lets whoever is there know someone is home. Keeping quiet runs the risk if it is a burglar he will take the silence as confirming everyone is out and proceed with entry at a window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 22, 2014, 01:16:19 AM
Going the door leaving it locked but asking from inside "who is there" lets whoever is there know someone is home. Keeping quiet runs the risk if it is a burglar he will take the silence as confirming everyone is out and proceed with entry at a window?
I truly wouldn't expect a potential burglar to knock at my door before he tried to gain access through the window, especially a seasoned one. I'd be more worried that they wanted to rape me if they thought I was a lone female. It seems the average Portuguese burglar is both polite & timid - unlike our UK gun-toting, crowbar wielding counterparts.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 22, 2014, 01:42:17 AM
"Never Pretend That No One Is Home One of the biggest misconceptions that people have is that they should ignore the knock on the door especially if they don’t know who the person is. However burglars will often knock first before entering a house and if they think that no one is home, they will then break-in. ... It is very important to teach our children that when they are home alone or baby-sitting, they too should never pretend that no one is home. They should talk through a locked door, saying that the parents are unavailable." http://www.homesafetyeducation.com/welcome/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=56
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on November 22, 2014, 02:05:36 AM
"Never Pretend That No One Is Home One of the biggest misconceptions that people have is that they should ignore the knock on the door especially if they don’t know who the person is. However burglars will often knock first before entering a house and if they think that no one is home, they will then break-in. ... It is very important to teach our children that when they are home alone or baby-sitting, they too should never pretend that no one is home. They should talk through a locked door, saying that the parents are unavailable." http://www.homesafetyeducation.com/welcome/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=56
Sorry, but I disagree with that - and the cases used to highlight the success of the safety advice merely highlight how many young American children are left at home alone. I was saying what I would do after dark, not during daylight hours. It also depends on the type of property & surroundings you live in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 22, 2014, 02:18:23 AM
... the cases used to highlight the success of the safety advice merely highlight how many young American children are left at home alone ...
The ages of the children in the highlighted cases are 9 12 8 11 13 11. http://www.homesafetyeducation.com/welcome/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=52&Itemid=56
So you could say it highlights how many young children of ages 8 to 13 are left home alone
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on November 22, 2014, 10:48:19 PM
The metal shutter has no lock and no bolt.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 09:39:38 PM
Evidence that the window was probably unlocked 1. When closed it doesn't latch or lock by itself (photos). 2. Neither parent had ever pressed or checked the lock button (statements). 3. Others in group checked their windows after disappearance and found some unlocked (statements).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 09, 2015, 09:43:22 PM
No scuff marks, no DNA...nothing. no one was entering that window at anytime. it is a red herring!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 10:03:10 PM
http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/16/article-0-008627AB000004B0-316_468x317.jpg The window of 5A child bedroom is the one with forensic red dust on. To its right are the two windows of the only bedroom of 5B. Of those 3 windows, which 2 were checked at at the 9pm external listening check?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 10:11:37 PM
Agreed no-one went through the window, but someone opened it, and there were hand marks on the outside of its shutter.
It was shown that the finger marks were from being opened from the inside. The window had kates prints. She may have looked out the window as a panic to see if she could see anything on discovering Maddie missing?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 10:29:47 PM
It was shown that the finger marks were from being opened from the inside. The window had kates prints. She may have looked out the window as a panic to see if she could see anything on discovering Maddie missing?
She leaned and looked out the window which was already open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 09, 2015, 10:43:03 PM
I find no reason to doubt what the witness says, that the window was already open. Do you think it wasn't open? Why?
The timeline is out. None else saw an open window. unless no one else was checking when they claimed they were. none of this makes any sense at all. If the flat was being targetted for burglary, they would use the unlocked door. when you watch Kate describe what she saw she is very vague, pulls faces and refused to answer "what did she see the first thing she waked into the room" RED HERRING! And if Kate believed Maddie has been abducted why did she not shout from the balony Maddie has been abducted? who told Mrs Fenn a child was missing. not in a panic ridden voice? strange don't you think? AND if Kate belived Maddie was abducted ( she claims she knew instantly) why look under the bed? and round about the twins cots? or cupboards?
Sorry all to crazy mad for me to believe. Smoke and Mirrors
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 11:11:15 PM
The timeline is out. None else saw an open window. unless no one else was checking when they claimed they were. none of this makes any sense at all. If the flat was being targetted for burglary, they would use the unlocked door. when you watch Kate describe what she saw she is very vague, pulls faces and refused to answer "what did she see the first thing she waked into the room" RED HERRING! And if Kate believed Maddie has been abducted why did she not shout from the balony Maddie has been abducted? who told Mrs Fenn a child was missing. not in a panic ridden voice? strange don't you think? AND if Kate belived Maddie was abducted ( she claims she knew instantly) why look under the bed? and round about the twins cots? or cupboards?
Sorry all to crazy mad for me to believe. Smoke and Mirrors
So do you think this witness opened the shutter and window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 09, 2015, 11:25:28 PM
Agreed no-one went through the window, but someone opened it, and there were hand marks on the outside of its shutter.
You cant take the partial unidentified fingerprints on the outside of the shutter as a definite that it was the same person who opened the window (if there was one) seeing as those fingerprints were most probably if not definitely from the three people from the Tapas group who said they touched the shutters when teyng to see if they could be opened from outside unkess they were wearing gloves? There is no record of any prints found on the outside of the window pane or window furniture and no evidence on the inside either from any stranger
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 09, 2015, 11:30:02 PM
So do you think this witness opened the shutter and window?
Yes, I do. and the reason is clear. Kate wanted to show everyone they were loving caring parents who were the victims of a horrible crime, ie their daughter was abducted via a window. I am not saying that Maddie was not abducted, I don't know the answer to that, but I do not belive if she was, it wasn't via a window. Kate was trying to protect their reputaion as she knew she was going to have a bumpy ride regarding teling family they went out eating and drinking and left a door unlocked and the children alone, who were never physically checked for many hours..
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 11:44:29 PM
You cant take the partial unidentified fingerprints on the outside of the shutter as a definite that it was the same person who opened the window (if there was one) seeing as those fingerprints were most probably if not definitely from the three people from the Tapas group who said they touched the shutters when teyng to see if they could be opened from outside unkess they were wearing gloves? There is no record of any prints found on the outside of the window pane or window furniture and no evidence on the inside either from any stranger
Agreed it's not a definite it's just what I think happened (but with no-one entering).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 09, 2015, 11:59:16 PM
Yes, I do. and the reason is clear. Kate wanted to show everyone they were loving caring parents who were the victims of a horrible crime, ie their daughter was abducted via a window. I am not saying that Maddie was not abducted, I don't know the answer to that, but I do not belive if she was, it wasn't via a window. Kate was trying to protect their reputaion as she knew she was going to have a bumpy ride regarding teling family they went out eating and drinking and left a door unlocked and the children alone, who were never physically checked for many hours..
That's quite a good and original theory - staging for a secondary reason only. But I believe the witness describes the scene truthfully.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 10, 2015, 12:01:53 AM
Agreed it's not a definite it's just what I think happened (but with no-one entering).
There is no forensics at all though for any stranger opening the window, or even any evidence that he would have been able to
As for the heralded Heri theory, how do you drag or lift a four year old through a 2 feet wide window leaving no trace? And HOW did you become able to do so in the first place, four year olds dont go with strangers...oh of course, it was someone she knew and they told her santa was waiting or some stuff
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 10, 2015, 12:03:16 AM
Family would be terrible, they would also be in trouble with the General Medical Council and other bodies, the British authorities, ie the police, social services, their friends and neighbours and eventually the GBP
So why not wait until morning and then the parents could have reported Madeleine missing & the patio door open?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on July 10, 2015, 12:04:40 AM
Back on the topic of the thread please.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 10, 2015, 12:05:06 AM
How do you account for this honest witnesses three times changing description of how she found the room?
Which changes? In every statement and media interview this witness says window open shutter open. If you say the high ledge, that was a newspaper reporter not the witness
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 10, 2015, 01:06:46 AM
She leaned and looked out the window which was already open.
That important fact is not in her statement.
At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 10, 2015, 01:19:46 AM
Which changes? In every statement and media interview this witness says window open shutter open. If you say the high ledge, that was a newspaper reporter not the witness
the curtains
She found them open 07 - statements of Km and others She run over and opened them - joint statement 07? Not until two years later did she ever say they were closed and she saw them from a closed position being blown right open on entry into room (tv interviews)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 10, 2015, 01:24:11 AM
@pathfinder the description of the crime scene is all there and has never changed. Looking out the window is not a description of the crime scene. The crime scene description of the window is that it was open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 10, 2015, 01:27:09 AM
@pathfinder the description of the crime scene is all there and has never changed. Looking out the window is not a description of the crime scene. The crime scene description of the window is that it was open.
That is a statement of what happened when the witness found her daughter gone. If the witness looked through the open window that should be the first thing that she did in her statement. The first thing she did was check on the twins and then checked the apartment according to her statement. Nothing about checking the car park for any sign of her.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 10, 2015, 01:43:51 AM
Yes, I do. and the reason is clear. Kate wanted to show everyone they were loving caring parents who were the victims of a horrible crime, ie their daughter was abducted via a window. I am not saying that Maddie was not abducted, I don't know the answer to that, but I do not belive if she was, it wasn't via a window. Kate was trying to protect their reputaion as she knew she was going to have a bumpy ride regarding teling family they went out eating and drinking and left a door unlocked and the children alone, who were never physically checked for many hours..
WOW Kate made a brilliant job of "protect their reputation" and the "bumpy ride regarding telling family they went out eating and drinking" (doubt their political influence didn't stretch to the tapas restaurant staff or the friends with whom they were dining) leaving "a door unlocked (why mention it at all to the police ... Oh ... those pesky friends again!) and the children alone" and who by the way were checked on such a regular basis that Mr Amaral and the PJ used it to deny the theory of abduction because there was no window of opportunity for one because of the regularity and timing of them.
That is a really obvious misreporting of what facts we have.
I think it perfectly possible that the flat could be entered via the window ... but I don't think it was. See what Heri has to say on it ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
... and see an instance of such an alleged kidnapping of a three year old girl which is reported from California when the intruder opened the window from the outside.
**snip Thursday evening, a man dressed in a hoodie approached a three-year-old girl's waist-high bedroom window, and according to family members, told her to "come toward" him.
Then he allegedly removed the window's screen, snatched her out from the Newhall, CA, home, and attempted to flee the scene with her, http://www.redbookmag.com/life/news/a19869/prevented-kidnapping-by-father-tackling-suspect/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 10, 2015, 02:59:15 PM
There are actually more internet reports about intruders taking children through open windows while not necesseraly entering the premises.
There is a pretty harrowing account from a police liaison officer about such an event which happened when a family were on a caravan holiday.
**snip When I got home that day I felt like a washed-out lettuce. I'd used up every emotion I had and I just needed to sit down and talk about it, endlessly. I still treasure the card from the Lawrence family, thanking me for my support. It came with the biggest basket of flowers I've ever seen.
What happened at Bridport that summer showed me that however long I've been doing my job, I'm still a compassionate person. It was certainly a testing time, and I still think back to it when I hear news of an abduction. I feel for the families involved and the trauma they must be going through, especially those whose child never comes back. Not knowing the outcome is the hardest part of all.'
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 10, 2015, 03:28:03 PM
Sorry for being repetitive but I am really amazed at the number of possible and the number of highly likely incidents of children being removed from their rooms by intruders.
I was of the opinion that if Madeleine had been taken in such a fashion it must have been a one off ... it seems that is not the case.
I won't bore by posting any more instances as anyone interested can do a search which will confirm that it happens.
**snip Prosecutors have charged a Riverton man with kidnapping for the abduction of 9-year-old girl from her home early Saturday. The defendant, David Waine Brock, 22, is in jail on a $250,000 cash bond. He was taken into custody at about 11:45 a.m. Tuesday on Mortimore Lane in Lander, where he was hiding in a storage unit. Abduction Brock is alleged to have taken the 9-year-old girl from her bedroom early Saturday in the 800 block of Cindy Circle. In interviews, the girl said the sound of her window opening woke her. She said a man reached through her window and pulled her outside. She said he clamped his hand over her mouth and said, "If you make any noise I will hurt you." The man set her down, and they walked away quickly. http://www.dailyranger.com/story.php?story_id=13618
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 01:25:43 AM
After the disappearnce at least one other member of this group of foreign tourists checked the windows in their flat and found that some were unlocked
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 08:41:52 AM
Have the current SY investigators in person done a hands-on test of opening from outside the window and shutter in child bedroom of 5A, and recorded at night how that opening procedure looks and sounds from the relevant bed position?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 13, 2015, 09:48:13 AM
Have the current SY investigators in person done a hands-on test of opening from outside the window and shutter in child bedroom of 5A, and recorded at night how that opening procedure looks and sounds from the relevant bed position?
The 'evidence' that there ever was an open window is provided by two people. One of them immediately closed it. It's a bit like a couple coming home to find a window has been broken. The husband immediately fits a new pane of glass. Then they call the police and say there was a break-in via that window. Would the police find that strange I wonder? &%+((£
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 09:50:07 AM
Have the current SY investigators in person done a hands-on test of opening from outside the window and shutter in child bedroom of 5A, and recorded at night how that opening procedure looks and sounds from the relevant bed position?
I have seen newspaper reports that the Oporto PJ team carried out extensive checks in Praia da Luz, visiting all the relative areas where Madeleine and her group were, and where various sightings were reported.
They were seen walking the route to Casa Liliana and they were seen walking a route towards the beach.
I would be amazed if they had not also visited the apartment block and its environs.
We know that Paulo Rebelo carried out an investigation of the apartment from which Madeleine was taken including any possible exits and entrances, with photographs of an officer climbing in the bedroom window and reports that a blanket simulating an object being passed through.
I am certain the information gleaned from these Portuguese diligences would have been carefully logged and shared with Scotland Yard making the need for their own physical checks superfluous ... however who is to say whether or not they have been allowed to visit discretely, I think it is likely they would want to get a 'feel' of the crime scene.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 09:56:50 AM
The 'evidence' that there ever was an open window is provided by two people. One of them immediately closed it. It's a bit like a couple coming home to find a window has been broken. The husband immediately fits a new pane of glass. Then they call the police and say there was a break-in via that window. Would the police find that strange I wonder? &%+((£
You are quite determined to paint the Drs McCann in the worst possible light with every post you make. Quite unedifying.
Madeleine's father was of the opinion that it was impossible to raise the shutter from outside and was shocked to discover that it could be raised. Stupid of him to interfere with what no-one knew was a crime scene at the time.
However since he neither replaced a broken pane of glass or jemmied a shutter ... your fault finding is becoming laboured.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 10:09:00 AM
You are quite determined to paint the Drs McCann in the worst possible light with every post you make. Quite unedifying.
Madeleine's father was of the opinion that it was impossible to raise the shutter from outside and was shocked to discover that it could be raised. Stupid of him to interfere with what no-one knew was a crime scene at the time.
However since he neither replaced a broken pane of glass or jemmied a shutter ... your fault finding is becoming laboured.
Need you be reminded, there is no independent evidence the window was open or the shutters jemmied/moved.
The mccanns used their relatives and associates to convey their version of events and then of course when it didn't suit them, deny it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 10:17:48 AM
Other than Kate mccanns word, and hers were the only identifiable fingerprints.
The alarm that Madeleine McCann was gone was not raised until 2200hrs. Dr Kate McCann's fingerprints are not an issue ... surprised you have missed and taken on board the discussions about that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 13, 2015, 10:28:33 AM
The alarm that Madeleine McCann was gone was not raised until 2200hrs. Dr Kate McCann's fingerprints are not an issue ... surprised you have missed and taken on board the discussions about that.
Bottom line.
No independent verification window was open before 10 pm, and that is the crucial period.
FACT.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 11:12:12 AM
I have seen newspaper reports that the Oporto PJ team carried out extensive checks in Praia da Luz, visiting all the relative areas where Madeleine and her group were, and where various sightings were reported.
They were seen walking the route to Casa Liliana and they were seen walking a route towards the beach.
I would be amazed if they had not also visited the apartment block and its environs.
We know that Paulo Rebelo carried out an investigation of the apartment from which Madeleine was taken including any possible exits and entrances, with photographs of an officer climbing in the bedroom window and reports that a blanket simulating an object being passed through.
I am certain the information gleaned from these Portuguese diligences would have been carefully logged and shared with Scotland Yard making the need for their own physical checks superfluous ... however who is to say whether or not they have been allowed to visit discretely, I think it is likely they would want to get a 'feel' of the crime scene.
Thanks Brietta. So it's possible that after 8 years not a single investigator has tested the heriberto method on the actual 5A window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 11:23:29 AM
Do any of the investigators even realise the window can be fully closed but not locked?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 11:32:45 AM
Do the current SIOs realise some windows in t7 apartments were found to be closed but definitely unlocked ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 13, 2015, 11:38:54 AM
Thanks Brietta. So it's possible that after 8 years not a single investigator has tested the heriberto method on the actual 5A window.
I think Rebelo definitely did and I think it possible it led to him discarding his predecessor's theory as newspaper reports at the time stated ...
**snip Paulo Rebelo's team are said to favour a theory which was originally discounted
**snip But it does suggest that detectives are moving away from the belief that the couple were involved in her disappearance.
They are now working on the theory that a prowler monitored the family's routine during their week-long holiday, and carefully chose a moment to strike, Publico reported.
I think Rebelo definitely did and I think it possible it led to him discarding his predecessor's theory as newspaper reports at the time stated ...
**snip Paulo Rebelo's team are said to favour a theory which was originally discounted
**snip But it does suggest that detectives are moving away from the belief that the couple were involved in her disappearance.
They are now working on the theory that a prowler monitored the family's routine during their week-long holiday, and carefully chose a moment to strike, Publico reported.
Thanks Brietta. I wonder if Rebelo Paiva etc at 5A on 29 Oct 2007 worked out that the window was possibly unlocked.
It is my opinion that many PJ officers are indeed part of an elite and I am sure that one of Rebelo's deserved reputation for excellence would not have overlooked such an obvious possibility. However I am not sure how much of a chance he had to explore anything at all with key witnesses, I believe that he had to cut short his visit to Britain to sit in on rogatory interviews to deal with more press leaks ...
quote - Mr Mitchell had earlier claimed that it seemed to be no coincidence the leak had occurred while Rebelo was in the UK interviewing witnesses in the case.
As an aside, Pegasus ... if you have a look at the video of Mr Amaral's documentary a couple of minutes into the introduction shows him sliding the patio door from inside with ridiculous ease ... but what caught my attention was that he did not initially use the handle but used the side of the door instead. The door runs very smoothly indeed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 01:52:56 PM
It is my opinion that many PJ officers are indeed part of an elite and I am sure that one of Rebelo's deserved reputation for excellence would not have overlooked such an obvious possibility. However I am not sure how much of a chance he had to explore anything at all with key witnesses, I believe that he had to cut short his visit to Britain to sit in on rogatory interviews to deal with more press leaks ...
quote - Mr Mitchell had earlier claimed that it seemed to be no coincidence the leak had occurred while Rebelo was in the UK interviewing witnesses in the case.
As an aside, Pegasus ... if you have a look at the video of Mr Amaral's documentary a couple of minutes into the introduction shows him sliding the patio door from inside with ridiculous ease ... but what caught my attention was that he did not initially use the handle but used the side of the door instead. The door runs very smoothly indeed.
IMO it is beyond curious that the PR expert was objecting so forcefully to a fact being released that has since been confirmed in the files and in the mother's book, and indeed the words he was so keen to prevent being bandied about are indisputably the words of the child herself. In Amaral's film (window section) you can see how effortlessly the window slides open - it needs only a tiny nudge then it glides by itself. I answer your door fact on other thread
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 10:18:12 PM
So how does that square with the applauded heriberto theory that the child would go towards that sound and be lifted out of the window?
Do you agree with heribertos theory? forgetting for the moment that no forensics existed surrounding a child being dragged through the window
(from other thread) IMO Heriberto's opening method is what happened. But his idea that the child then went to window is incorrect. IMO no adult or child ever went through the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:30:48 PM
(from other thread) IMO Heriberto's opening method is what happened. But his idea that the child then went to window is incorrect. IMO no adult or child ever went through the window.
So its part of your theory, no evidence for it, but do you have any supporting evidence for an intruder and for one that would kdnap a child when only in for burglary? Or is your theory break in through shutters hoping a window is open and hoping a child is inside to kidnap, sorry, but the many theories around have confused me
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 10:31:58 PM
Kate Mccann says Madeleine was overly tired and wondered if she had been drugged durng the day
Prior to the disappearance the child was unusually tired. (The drug hypothesis is something added, understandably, only in retrospect). Just because someone is tired is no guarantee they won't wake up due to bladder or an unusual loud noise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 10:37:32 PM
So its part of your theory, no evidence for it, but do you have any supporting evidence for an intruder and for one that would kdnap a child when only in for burglary? Or is your theory break in through shutters hoping a window is open and hoping a child is inside to kidnap, sorry, but the many theories around have confused me
The person outside IMO was a common burglar who thought everyone was out. And got disturbed before entering, so never entered.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 10:42:11 PM
IMO it is beyond curious that the PR expert was objecting so forcefully to a fact being released that has since been confirmed in the files and in the mother's book, and indeed the words he was so keen to prevent being bandied about are indisputably the words of the child herself. In Amaral's film (window section) you can see how effortlessly the window slides open - it needs only a tiny nudge then it glides by itself. I answer your door fact on other thread
I think the problem was not so much with the veracity of the leak but that there was a leak at all. The fact that it was true and could only have come from within the investigation is confirmation that someone within the investigation was the author of leaks in direct contravention of Portuguese Secrecy Laws.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:15:06 PM
I think the problem was not so much with the veracity of the leak but that there was a leak at all. The fact that it was true and could only have come from within the investigation is confirmation that someone within the investigation was the author of leaks in direct contravention of Portuguese Secrecy Laws.
No point in getting flabbergastedaround breaches of the law of secrecy when jane tanner broke that law
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 13, 2015, 11:51:55 PM
So where is Madeleine Mccann? If a potential burlgar didnt do it as is one if the "theories"
I've explained the disappearance from the child bedroom Mercury. In a single and likely event which explains the complete scene in that room. The key is: the apartment looked like everyone was out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 13, 2015, 11:59:08 PM
I've explained the disappearance from the child bedroom Mercury. In a single and likely event which explains the complete scene in that room. The key is: the apartment looked like everyone was out.
Can you recap it all so we can move on and see?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 12:26:23 AM
Apartment 5A looked like everyone was out for the evening. There was only one burglar accessible window. (fairly obvious stuff snipped ) Burglar flees without entering. Child runs to another room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 12:34:36 AM
Apartment 5A looked like everyone was out for the evening. There was only one burglar accessible window. (fairly obvious stuff snipped ) Burglar flees without entering. Child runs to another room.
and? After child runs to another room???
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 12:50:53 AM
I don't know but if I was a child the only two possibilities would be going out balcony door or remaining in another room. But do you even agree with the start that the apartment looked like everyone out for the evening?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 01:02:45 AM
I don't know but if I was a child the only two possibilities would be going out balcony door or remaining in another room. But do you even agree with the start that the apartment looked like everyone out for the evening?
ok so you are suggesting the child possibly awoke to a possible intruder and youve been posting this for months and months and? With nothing further? Why did you bother?
Especially when theres no evidence of any of it
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 14, 2015, 01:18:54 AM
I don't know but if I was a child the only two possibilities would be going out balcony door or remaining in another room. But do you even agree with the start that the apartment looked like everyone out for the evening?
If all the shutters & curtains were closed how could a burglar be sure that the apartment was unoccupied? The interior light which had been left on may possibly have been visible through either the window behind the dining table or the kitchen window. A light is a deterrent. Why wasn't 5B or 5D selected instead?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 01:22:22 AM
ok so you are suggesting the child possibly awoke to a possible intruder and youve been posting this for months and months and? With nothing further? Why did you bother?
Especially when theres no evidence of any of it
The theory fits this evidence: open window, open shutter, open bedroom door, no intruder, and BTW the absence of child from that bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 01:28:20 AM
If all the shutters & curtains were closed how could a burglar be sure that the apartment was unoccupied? The interior light which had been left on may possibly have been visible through either the window behind the dining table or the kitchen window. A light is a deterrent. Why wasn't 5B or 5D selected instead?
The low light of just one table lamp at this time of evening says the tourist apartment is currently let (no point robbing an unlet apartment) and also that everyone is out for the evening (if people were in at this time they would have more lights on).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 01:49:58 AM
IMO it explains the scene in that room and the disappearance from that room, all in under 20 seconds. But what is your theory of the open window and open shutter?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 14, 2015, 02:07:48 AM
The low light of just one table lamp at this time of evening says the tourist apartment is currently let (no point robbing an unlet apartment) and also that everyone is out for the evening (if people were in at this time they would have more lights on).
And if all the shutters were down & the curtains closed.......how would a burglar know if it was occupied or not?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 02:10:18 AM
IMO it explains the scene in that room and the disappearance from that room, all in under 20 seconds. But what is your theory of the open window and open shutter?
l honestly pegasus! Youre having a laugh never mind
youve spent weeks trying to convince people of a move by a frightened child fron one room to another where someone took her never mind No one took her INO there is Zero evidence IE zero zero And you know there is Zero evidence of any abduction
Not any morsel whatsoever
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 02:38:49 AM
l honestly pegasus! Youre having a laugh never mind
youve spent weeks trying to convince people of a move by a frightened child fron one room to another where someone took her never mind
No, the theory only is about one room's shutter and window and door, nothing more. Compare Heriberto's theory explains window and shutter but not door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 14, 2015, 09:42:08 AM
No, the theory only is about one room's shutter and window and door, nothing more. Compare Heriberto's theory explains window and shutter but not door.
But where do these theories lead to? Not forgetting they are just theories of what might have been possible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 14, 2015, 03:08:04 PM
The low light of just one table lamp at this time of evening says the tourist apartment is currently let (no point robbing an unlet apartment) and also that everyone is out for the evening (if people were in at this time they would have more lights on).
I regularly watch TV or read a book with just a table lamp.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 11:01:09 PM
I regularly watch TV or read a book with just a table lamp.
You are sitting in your holiday apartment in the lounge one evening reading your book by table lamp and someone knocks gently at the front door what would you do? It's not a trick question.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 14, 2015, 11:40:05 PM
But where do these theories lead to? Not forgetting they are just theories of what might have been possible.
I don't know Mercury. IMO if someone outside was opening the shutter, it would be audible and visible inside that room, and if I was a child that age I would certainly pull the child bedroom door open and step through it. Beyond that I have no idea - tried numerous theories but haven't found one that fits on every level.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 12:28:41 AM
I don't know Mercury. IMO if someone outside was opening the shutter, it would be audible and visible inside that room, and if I was a child that age I would certainly pull the child bedroom door open and step through it. Beyond that I have no idea - tried numerous theories but haven't found one that fits on every level.
No glove marks on the shutter or window. Do they want their fingerprints to be found like Kate's? There's no evidence of a window being used or a break-in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2015, 01:20:30 AM
I don't know Mercury. IMO if someone outside was opening the shutter, it would be audible and visible inside that room, and if I was a child that age I would certainly pull the child bedroom door open and step through it. Beyond that I have no idea - tried numerous theories but haven't found one that fits on every level.
But Pegasus
You keep ignoring the obvious way in and out.
Via the Front door with a key and an accomplis.
Dont forget, the front dooir light was broken - hanging I think The front door was completely hidden out of sight, no-one passed by and ... it was in utter blackness.
Key in the lock. turn it, push door open using the key. On exit, pull the front door closed using the key again
NO FINGERPRINTS.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 02:17:11 AM
I don't know Mercury. IMO if someone outside was opening the shutter, it would be audible and visible inside that room, and if I was a child that age I would certainly pull the child bedroom door open and step through it. Beyond that I have no idea - tried numerous theories but haven't found one that fits on every level.
Thanks pegasus
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 02:18:58 AM
Dont forget, the front dooir light was broken - hanging I think The front door was completely hidden out of sight, no-one passed by and ... it was in utter blackness.
Key in the lock. turn it, push door open using the key. On exit, pull the front door closed using the key again
NO FINGERPRINTS.
pure speculation though
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2015, 02:57:38 AM
You are sitting in your holiday apartment in the lounge one evening reading your book by table lamp and someone knocks gently at the front door what would you do? It's not a trick question.
Answer the door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 15, 2015, 06:02:50 AM
Quite. First you have to establish that the child was actually abducted then you theorise about how it was accomplished.
once the parents have been ruled out...they are not suspects....abduction is far and away the most logical reason for maddie's disappearance. SY seem to agree with that.
Redwood's statement is hard evidence that the McCanns have been ruled out
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 15, 2015, 09:18:02 AM
Dont forget, the front dooir light was broken - hanging I think The front door was completely hidden out of sight, no-one passed by and ... it was in utter blackness.
Key in the lock. turn it, push door open using the key. On exit, pull the front door closed using the key again
NO FINGERPRINTS.
I wonder how long the front door light had been broken?
Was it sabotaged in advance?
Pitch black in the front door alcove without a light. And nobody passed by. Perfect place for a totally hidden entrance and exit.
As these nasty people like to say "Hidden in plain sight". Hidden because nobody could see there.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 09:24:49 AM
Quite. First you have to establish that the child was actually abducted then you theorise about how it was accomplished.
The fact that Madeleine had disappeared and Kate's statement of how she found the shutters and windows open is evidence of abduction.
If you don't accept evidence from family members, then why was Sarah Payne immediately considered to have been abducted. She disappeared and only a family member claimed to have seen anything.
The same goes for Ben Needham - he disappeared and we only have his family's word for what happened.
But in your eyes - as there was no independent witness evidence of abduction - it was not possible to be established. That is not how the police work IMO.
Establishing the credibility of witnesses is vital in cases where no physical evidence is found - and IMO that is what the police did in all the above cases - including the McCann case.
It's clear to me that the police have fully satisfied themselves that both Kerry Needham and her family - and the McCanns - are all credible witnesses. This has enabled them to rule them out as suspects and it follows therefore that removal by a stranger is the only other viablle alternative. And they are the experts.
If you want to ignore the experts - that's up to you.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 15, 2015, 09:43:34 AM
The fact that Madeleine had disappeared and Kate's statement of how she found the shutters and windows open is evidence of abduction.
If you don't accept evidence from family members, then why was Sarah Payne immediately considered to have been abducted. She disappeared and only a family member claimed to have seen anything.
The same goes for Ben Needham - he disappeared and we only have his family's word for what happened.
But in your eyes - as there was no independent witness evidence of abduction - it was not possible to be established. That is not how the police work IMO.
Establishing the credibility of witnesses is vital in cases where no physical evidence is found - and IMO that is what the police did in all the above cases - including the McCann case.
It's clear to me that the police have fully satisfied themselves that both Kerry Needham and her family - and the McCanns - are all credible witnesses. This has enabled them to rule them out as suspects and it follows therefore that removal by a stranger is the only other viablle alternative. And they are the experts.
If you want to ignore the experts - that's up to you.
No independent verification that the window or shutters had been moved before 10 pm.
Keep to the facts please.
Crime unknown.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 15, 2015, 10:33:07 AM
The fact that Madeleine had disappeared and Kate's statement of how she found the shutters and windows open is evidence of abduction.
If you don't accept evidence from family members, then why was Sarah Payne immediately considered to have been abducted. She disappeared and only a family member claimed to have seen anything.
The same goes for Ben Needham - he disappeared and we only have his family's word for what happened.
But in your eyes - as there was no independent witness evidence of abduction - it was not possible to be established. That is not how the police work IMO.
Establishing the credibility of witnesses is vital in cases where no physical evidence is found - and IMO that is what the police did in all the above cases - including the McCann case.
It's clear to me that the police have fully satisfied themselves that both Kerry Needham and her family - and the McCanns - are all credible witnesses. This has enabled them to rule them out as suspects and it follows therefore that removal by a stranger is the only other viablle alternative. And they are the experts.
If you want to ignore the experts - that's up to you.
The window and shutters weren't in that state when the police arrived. No evidence of a break-in or the window being used. No independent witnesses saw the shutters raised other than the McCanns. It's easy to open a window especially when your fingerprints are found.
She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. (KM 4 May)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 10:52:18 AM
The window and shutters weren't in that state when the police arrived. No evidence of a break-in or the window being used. No independent witnesses saw the shutters raised other than the McCanns. It's easy to open a window especially when your fingerprints are found.
She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. (KM 4 May)
If the open shutter and windows were part of a pre-conceived cunning plan to convince the police that an intruder had entered 5A - then why did Gerry close them before the police arrived. That makes no sense.
The rest of my post is about what IMO police do when there is a lack on independent or physical evidence - i.e. they establish the credibility or otherwise of the witnesses who are family members. That would be a crucial part of their preliminary investigations IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 11:16:48 AM
If the open shutter and windows were part of a pre-conceived cunning plan to convince the police that an intruder had entered 5A - then why did Gerry close them before the police arrived. That makes no sense.
The rest of my post is about what IMO police do when there is a lack on independent or physical evidence - i.e. they establish the credibility or otherwise of the witnesses who are family members. That would be a crucial part of their preliminary investigations IMO.
That is called tampering a no no to police. deleting phone calls and a whole range of stuff instead of out looking like the rest of them. Kate sat alone on the bed deleting her phone call history by the looks of it when she should of rang the cops. Any mother would want to call them straight away if they knew she had been abducted. Who finally sends Matt to call them first? Fiona.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 11:24:28 AM
That is called tampering a no no to police. deleting phone calls and a whole range of stuff instead of out looking like the rest of them. Kate sat alone on the bed deleting her phone call history by the looks of it.
You are using hindsight again PF. When Gerry closed the shutters and then tried to see if they could be opened from the outside - that would be a normal thing to do IMO at that particular time. It could be that he was hoping against hope that they could not be opened from the outside and so Madeleine may have opened them. All kinds of stuff to ward off having to face an abduction as a certainty would be racing through his mind at that time imo.
I don't know enough about mobiles to have an opinion on their usage - but I expect SY will know all the relevant facts.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 11:26:20 AM
You are using hindsight again PF. When Gerry closed the shutters and then tried to see if they could be opened from the outside - that would be a normal thing to do IMO at that particular time. It could be that he was hoping against hope that they could not be opened from the outside and so Madeleine may have opened them. All kinds of stuff to ward off having to face an abduction as a certainty would be racing through his mind at that time imo.
I don't know enough about mobiles to have an opinion on their usage - but I expect SY will know all the relevant facts.
It's not hindsight. You call the cops straight away. She said she knew right away she had been abducted so what is she doing in the apartment all alone?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 15, 2015, 11:38:20 AM
It's not hindsight. You call the cops straight away. She said she knew right away she had been abducted so what is she doing in the apartment all alone?
What is wrong with her being in the apartment? Why does she have to be outside it? I don't get that. Do you really think she was cool, calm and collected at that time? According to the witnesses she was in the most terrible state and probably didn't know what she doing herself half the time. IIRC it wasn't until the next day she realised the bruising on her hands etc were caused when she was hitting out (at the railings?) in her anguish.
Your expectations of how parents who had just been plunged into every parents worst nightmare would/should repond is completely unrealistic IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 15, 2015, 11:38:52 AM
What is wrong with her being in the apartment? Why does she have to be outside it? I don't get that. Do you really think she was cool, calm and collected at that time? According to the witnesses she was in the most terrible state and probably didn't know what she doing herself half the time. IIRC it wasn't until the next day she realised the bruising on her hands etc were caused when she was hitting out (at the railings?) in her anguish.
Your expectations of how parents who had just been plunged into every parents worst nightmare would/should repond is completely unrealistic IMO.
8@??)( Well said Benice
Totally unrealistic and very uncaring. No empathy.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 15, 2015, 01:02:52 PM
Dont forget, the front dooir light was broken - hanging I think The front door was completely hidden out of sight, no-one passed by and ... it was in utter blackness.
Key in the lock. turn it, push door open using the key. On exit, pull the front door closed using the key again
NO FINGERPRINTS.
If someone had entered through the front door, that person would also depart through the front door. And then KM would have found the shutter and window closed.
I am trusting in KM's statement that the shutter and window were open. Also trusting her statement that no-one had checked if the window was locked. Also trusting statements of a few other group members who found some windows in their apartments were unlocked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 15, 2015, 07:51:34 PM
If someone had entered through the front door, that person would also depart through the front door. And then KM would have found the shutter and window closed.
I am trusting in KM's statement that the shutter and window were open. Also trusting her statement that no-one had checked if the window was locked. Also trusting statements of a few other group members who found some windows in their apartments were unlocked.
There is no way of knowing why the shutter was raised and the window opened. A variety of reasons can be speculated but until the PJ and SY ask the question of the relevant person we can't know the reason.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 15, 2015, 07:58:55 PM
If someone had entered through the front door, that person would also depart through the front door. And then KM would have found the shutter and window closed.
I am trusting in KM's statement that the shutter and window were open. Also trusting her statement that no-one had checked if the window was locked. Also trusting statements of a few other group members who found some windows in their apartments were unlocked.
is there any particular reason why you are trusting KM's statement about the shutter and window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 08:54:11 PM
Totally unrealistic and very uncaring. No empathy.
Empathy is having feeling for someone ....if anybody doesnt believe the Mccanns, for whatever reason, its the logical and natural response to NOT empathise
Ie Why don't you have empathy for G Amaral?
Empathy is not a blank cheque moral requirement of anybody
Does that make sense?
Being considered innocent before proven otherwise is a totally different kettle of fish IMO, perhaps you confuse the two?
The Mccanns have done themselves little favours over time in so many ways and I don't think you or anyone can preach to people/dengrate them
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 15, 2015, 09:23:49 PM
is there any particular reason why you are trusting KM's statement about the shutter and window?
Because the technical design of the shutter and window makes it probable they were easy to open from outside without force. And because the scene described in that room (open window and shutter and door, and absence of child from that room) is exactly what would inevitably result if the window and shutter were opened from outside.
Therefore the crime scene description of this room by this witness is 100% truthful IMO. (However I disagree with some of the witness's amateur deductions about the exact sequence which caused that scene).
It is important to seperate crime scene description by witness (truthful fact), from amateur deduction by witness (often incorrect) IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 09:43:04 PM
There is no evidence the window was open allowing a burglar, even if he could raise the shutters, to gain entry
The Mccanns have said they never touched that window at all, ever, so unless the cleaners left it open, before their arrival, how did this happen?
And what about parental checks? Why didnt the parents ensure all was locked? Before venturing out and leaving three babies.??
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 15, 2015, 10:02:19 PM
Because the technical design of the shutter and window makes it probable they were easy to open from outside without force. And because the scene described in that room (open window and shutter and door, and absence of child from that room) is exactly what would inevitably result if the window and shutter were opened from outside.
Therefore the crime scene description of this room by this witness is 100% truthful IMO. (However I disagree with some of the witness's amateur deductions about the exact sequence which caused that scene).
It is important to seperate crime scene description by witness (truthful fact), from amateur deduction by witness (often incorrect) IMO.
So you're assuming that the witness was telling the truth. I see.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 15, 2015, 10:24:05 PM
So you're assuming that the witness was telling the truth. I see.
Not assuming anything, I worked it out. The crime-scene description by the witness fits with the hard evidence in this room G-Unit. For example do you realise that this window does not auto-lock?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 15, 2015, 10:29:33 PM
Not assuming anything, I worked it out. The crime-scene description by the witness fits with the hard evidence in this room G-Unit. For example do you realise that this window does not auto-lock?
It doesn't matter whether the shutters can be opened from outside or whether the window doesn't auto-lock if they were never open, does it? First demonstrate that they were actually open as described, then discuss how and why.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 15, 2015, 10:52:38 PM
It doesn't matter whether the shutters can be opened from outside or whether the window doesn't auto-lock if they were never open, does it? First demonstrate that they were actually open as described, then discuss how and why.
I've described a simple sequence of events which would produce exactly the scene this witness describes. Therefore I believe the witness. If you have a theory in which the window and shutter and bedroom door are discovered closed at 10pm, please post it. Have you read the statement which says that some windows in this building were found to be closed but not locked ? Why do you assume 5A would be any different ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 15, 2015, 10:57:53 PM
Could have been lies/staged, no evidence it wasnt
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 15, 2015, 11:11:41 PM
It had to be unlocked to be opened from the outside. Never believe witnesses until you know they are credible. Deleting phone calls and not telling the cops about it the next day is not being honest. That's your weakness believing everyone is honest. Get in the real world.
Have you read the t7 rog about windows being found to be unlocked? How people are involved and lying in your theory? How does that number compare with solved cases in the real world? It's a useful reality check.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 12:13:45 AM
Have you read the t7 rog about windows being found to be unlocked? How people are involved and lying in your theory? How does that number compare with solved cases in the real world? It's a useful reality check.
Let me give you a guarantee - people involved are lying.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 12:28:36 AM
So do you believe that when KM arrived to do her check the shutter was not open?
Let's put it this way. It ruled out the wandered out theory and why they screamed abduction right away but forgot to phone the police for some strange reason and then Smithman is seen. Everything connects.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 16, 2015, 12:52:09 AM
Let's look at it from another angle. Why would a burglar have picked that particular window to open, rather than 5B, 5D or even upstairs 5H? 5A & 5B front windows are very close to the car-park wall and also above a height for easy access. They are also visible from the car park to anyone looking in that direction & apparently partially illuminated by a street light. Only the front doors of those 2 apartments are recessed and out of easy vision. Emergency exit would not be straightforward, especially if the front door is double-locked. The front windows to 5C & 5D are recessed under the landing balcony for the first floor, and less visible. The window to 5H (1st floor) is a much more burglar-friendly height for a speedy exit, as Mrs Fenn would have testified. So, of all the doors a burglar could have knocked on to check for occupancy before lifting a shutter & opening the window, why select 5A?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 01:02:24 AM
Let's put it this way. It ruled out the wandered out theory and why they screamed abduction right away but forgot to phone the police for some strange reason and then Smithman is seen. Everything connects.
So in your theory when does someone first open the shutter?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 16, 2015, 01:03:56 AM
So in your theory when does someone first open the shutter?
When the window was opened. Hopefully somebody left a clue but no glove marks. You have witnesses walking through that car park and did anybody see the shutters raised? Show me the statements where others said they saw the shutters raised and at what time?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 01:26:38 AM
Let's look at it from another angle. Why would a burglar have picked that particular window to open, rather than 5B, 5D or even upstairs 5H? 5A & 5B front windows are very close to the car-park wall and also above a height for easy access. They are also visible from the car park to anyone looking in that direction & apparently partially illuminated by a street light. Only the front doors of those 2 apartments are recessed and out of easy vision. Emergency exit would not be straightforward, especially if the front door is double-locked. The front windows to 5C & 5D are recessed under the landing balcony for the first floor, and less visible. The window to 5H (1st floor) is a much more burglar-friendly height for a speedy exit, as Mrs Fenn would have testified. So, of all the doors a burglar could have knocked on to check for occupancy before lifting a shutter & opening the window, why select 5A?
I don't know exact reason why 5A was chosen. Why was 5G chosen? Why was 5L chosen? Why was 4A chosen? BTW they all have a waist height window, even on 1st and 2nd floor.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 01:32:38 AM
I don't know exact reason why 5A was chosen. Why was 5G chosen? Why was 5L chosen? Why was 4A chosen? BTW they all have a waist height window, even on 1st and 2nd floor.
The UK police knew why 5A was chosen. According to them it was a burglar's paradise ( or words to that effect). The same advantages offered by 5A to potential burglars would also apply to potential abductors.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 01:34:06 AM
When the window was opened. Hopefully somebody left a clue but no glove marks. You have witnesses walking through that car park and did anybody see the shutters raised? Show me the statements where others said they saw the shutters raised and at what time?
In your theory was the shutter first opened before the 7 adults rushed from restaurant toward 5A? Or after?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 16, 2015, 01:40:09 AM
The UK police knew why 5A was chosen. According to them it was a burglar's paradise ( or words to that effect). The same advantages offered by 5A to potential burglars would also apply to potential abductors.
What a load of absolute tosh
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 01:42:03 AM
Not sure. Do you mean the introduction of Mark Warner staff to the resort?
5L burglary: someone knocked on the front door. And made some excuse about looking for some other family. Later the family went out for dinner and the apartment got burgled. Guess which door the burglar got in through? (Warning that is a trick question)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 03:03:48 AM
I thought the Scottish holidaymakers had only just checked into the room, left their luggage & gone straight to dinner?
At 5L (same block as 5A) the door knock was before they went out to dinner. And the burglar's entry route was ...? http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/madeleine-mccann-leads-pour-in-after-bbc-crimewatch/29660
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 16, 2015, 03:27:10 AM
there is no evidence pegasus that the scene was not staged
end of
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 03:36:20 AM
At 5L (same block as 5A) the door knock was before they went out to dinner. And the burglar's entry route was ...? http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/madeleine-mccann-leads-pour-in-after-bbc-crimewatch/29660
*snipped In the Praia da Luz area, there was one burglary and one attempted burglary in the 17 days before Madeleine went missing. On April 16, a British couple who had just arrived in the resort received a knock on the door from a fair-haired man who claimed to be looking for a German family. Hours later their apartment was burgled.
Heriberto said the 5L burglary occurred on the 17th, not the 16th. The Mail report refers to a couple in the resort rather than a family in Block 5.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 03:55:51 AM
"In both the April burglaries entry was gained via a window" http://www.theportugalnews.com/news/madeleine-mccann-leads-pour-in-after-bbc-crimewatch/29660 BTW that was 5L and 5G. Same block as 5A
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 16, 2015, 09:36:17 AM
Do you think the open window at 5L was staged too?
No as I have no knowledge or opinion on it, btw it has been suggested by a UK forensic specialist that 5a could have been staged, not me personally I tend to take professionals' views into account sometimes
8((()*/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 11:24:40 AM
No as I have no knowledge or opinion on it, btw it has been suggested by a UK forensic specialist that 5a could have been staged, not me personally I tend to take professionals' views into account sometimes
8((()*/
Which UK forensic specialist professional?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 11:35:58 AM
The moving timeline, and all the claimed activity by the Tapas group (that fail safe -child safe 'checking' system in place, so approved by supporters) What TIME did this 'intruder' commit this heinous crime? apart from the tanner sighting time... Well, within a few seconds to bang in steal a sleeping child jump back out the window, without leaving so much of a foot print or a scuff mark..... nice tidy child snatcher.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 11:52:47 AM
The moving timeline, and all the claimed activity by the Tapas group (that fail safe -child safe 'checking' system in place, so approved by supporters) What TIME did this 'intruder' commit this heinous crime? apart from the tanner sighting time... Well, within a few seconds to bang in steal a sleeping child jump back out the window, without leaving so much of a foot print or a scuff mark..... nice tidy child snatcher.
The question is: Can the window and shutter be opened from outside without force? It is a scientific question - absolutely nothing to do with timelines, or child-checking, or sightings, or the illogical assumption that someone got as far as entering the apartment. It is answered by looking at the mechanical design of the window and shutter and nothing else.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 12:02:31 PM
The moving timeline, and all the claimed activity by the Tapas group (that fail safe -child safe 'checking' system in place, so approved by supporters) What TIME did this 'intruder' commit this heinous crime? apart from the tanner sighting time... Well, within a few seconds to bang in steal a sleeping child jump back out the window, without leaving so much of a foot print or a scuff mark..... nice tidy child snatcher.
Why do you keep insisting that the intruder came in or went out of the window or both - and then scoffing at the idea? That was the McCanns first and perfectly normal assumption from how they found the room. Later they accepted that other means of entry/departure were possible. It would appear that you have missed that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 12:06:10 PM
The question is: Can the window and shutter be opened from outside without force? It is a scientific question - absolutely nothing to do with timelines, or child-checking, or sightings, or the illogical assumption that someone got as far as entering the apartment. It is answered by looking at the mechanical design of the window and shutter and nothing else.
This was looked at closley. I think Pathy put up a video of this a while back, it may still be on another thread...
Experts looking at all scenarios.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 12:15:37 PM
Before the others rushed to 5A but only 3 went inside - the McCanns and DP.
So we agree that the shutter was already physically open before the moment when 6 people left the table. We just disagree on who opened it, and from which side.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 12:20:13 PM
The question is: Can the window and shutter be opened from outside without force? It is a scientific question - absolutely nothing to do with timelines, or child-checking, or sightings, or the illogical assumption that someone got as far as entering the apartment. It is answered by looking at the mechanical design of the window and shutter and nothing else.
Gerry found (to his horror) that the shutters could be raised from the outside. We also know from (Pat Brown's?) video that the shutters could be raised from the outside. A person was filmed doing exactly that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 12:29:12 PM
Gerry found (to his horror) that the shutters could be raised from the outside. We also know from (Pat Brown's?) video that the shutters could be raised from the outside. A person was filmed doing exactly that.
GM that night, and PB's video on later date, each solve only the first stage of the 3 stage method. Both failed to solve the full 3 stage method. See first half of Heriberto video - the correct solution - all 3 stages - very easy.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 12:49:23 PM
Why do you keep insisting that the intruder came in or went out of the window or both - and then scoffing at the idea? That was the McCanns first and perfectly normal assumption from how they found the room. Later they accepted that other means of entry/departure were possible. It would appear that you have missed that.
It was the parents who insisted- all over the papers!
I can scoff at the stupid attempt to cloud the fact the parents did wrong by their dughter regarding her safety. trying to hoodwink and failing.
Later? how much later? after it was discovered that the doors were left unlocked? Have they ever suggested that? They were very reluctant to mention that as it would leave people wondering if the door was unlocked Mddie could have 'woke n wandered; venhimatly denied by both parents as a possibility.
Ofcourse the window /shutters are a red herring. We have seen on anothr thread- Gerry goes to check Maddie- noticed the door was open NOT WINDOW OR SHUTTERS. he leaves a few min later JT sees a fleeing abductor.
Seems I didn't miss that part? eh.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 12:53:02 PM
It was the parents who insisted- all over the papers!
I can scoff at the stupid attempt to cloud the fact the parents did wrong by their dughter regarding her safety. trying to hoodwink and failing.
Later? how much later? after it was discovered that the doors were left unlocked? Have they ever suggested that? They were very reluctant to mention that as it would leave people wondering if the door was unlocked Mddie could have 'woke n wandered; venhimatly denied by both parents as a possibility.
Ofcourse the window /shutters are a red herring. We have seen on anothr thread- Gerry goes to check Maddie- noticed the door was open NOT WINDOW OR SHUTTERS. he leaves a few min later JT sees a fleeing abductor.
Seems I didn't miss that part? eh.
That was in 2007. Most of us have moved on since then.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 01:04:27 PM
That was in 2007. Most of us have moved on since then.
Admission the parents were lying about the jemmied shutters? and suggesting the abduction took place via a window? ... lets pretend they didn't say that- re write history. Glad you all moved on.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 16, 2015, 01:23:19 PM
Admission the parents were lying about the jemmied shutters? and suggesting the abduction took place via a window? ... lets pretend they didn't say that- re write history. Glad you all moved on.
Moved on to what?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 02:07:08 PM
The mainstream non-abduction theory imagines that the open window and shutter were staged. The mainstream abduction theory imagines that the open window and shutter were staged (by a supposed abductor who entered and departed by a door).
Both theories seem to reject the opening of window and shutter from outside as impossible?
But the fact is:- If the window lock button is not deliberately pressed, then both the window and the shutter can be easily opened from outside with no damage at all.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 02:09:56 PM
Admission the parents were lying about the jemmied shutters? and suggesting the abduction took place via a window? ... lets pretend they didn't say that- re write history. Glad you all moved on.
They seem to have thought that in the initial panic in talking to the relatives, who then repeated it to the media in their own attempts to get things moving.
They may have thought that to be a strong possibility for a while, even though it had been establshed that the shutter showed no signs of forced entry.
If I suddenly walked into my home and found shutters up and a window open, I'd have assumed that that was the mode of entry as well.
Initial assumptions in a panic situation aren't always correct.
Why on earth the PJ didn't do anything more to check out potential duplicate keys with the window as a potential red herring remains a mystery to me.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 02:21:40 PM
The mainstream non-abduction theory imagines that the open window and shutter were staged. The mainstream abduction theory imagines that the open window and shutter were staged (by a supposed abductor who entered and departed by a door).
Both theories seem to reject the opening of window and shutter from outside as impossible?
But the fact is:- If the window lock button is not deliberately pressed, then both the window and the shutter can be easily opened from outside with no damage at all.
I haven't discounted your theory of an aborted attempt to open the shutter from the outside.
Heri demonstrated that it would be technically possible to lift a child outside without actually entering... but the idea that a child of that age would willingly move towards the source of a strange noise in the night and be allowed to be picked up and taken out of the window seems extremely unlikely to me.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 16, 2015, 02:30:53 PM
I haven't discounted your theory of an aborted attempt to open the shutter from the outside.
Heri demonstrated that it would be technically possible to lift a child outside without actually entering... but the idea that a child of that age would willingly move towards the source of a strange noise in the night and be allowed to be picked up and taken out of the window seems extremely unlikely to me.
That was the only part of Heri's theory that I had an issue with.
I didn't think the child would advance towards the window voluntarily and thought she could only have been passed through by an accomplice. My main thought about the open window was as an escape route should the intruder be disturbed.
Then I read that it actually had occurred ...
**snip A three-year-old girl was kidnapped by a stranger through her bedroom window - but miraculously saved when her father and uncle chased her abductor down the street, police have said. The unidentified youngster was allegedly snatched by the hooded man after he leaned through her window at her family's Southern California home on Thursday and told her to 'come toward him'.
I haven't discounted your theory of an aborted attempt to open the shutter from the outside.
Heri demonstrated that it would be technically possible to lift a child outside without actually entering... but the idea that a child of that age would willingly move towards the source of a strange noise in the night and be allowed to be picked up and taken out of the window seems extremely unlikely to me.
His video shows the opening method well. Stop the video there. Now ask 100 young kids which direction they would go when someone opened their bedroom window from outside in the middle of the night. It will be a 100 to 0 unanimous vote, and it certainly won't be "walk towards window".
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 16, 2015, 02:53:40 PM
Admission the parents were lying about the jemmied shutters? and suggesting the abduction took place via a window? ... lets pretend they didn't say that- re write history. Glad you all moved on.
You seem to be stuck in 'day one' of Madeleine's disappearance.
However, if the idea was to open the shutters and window to prove to the police that an intruder had entered that way - then why didn't the McCanns make sure there were scuffs or marks on the wall/window cill to show that?
If they were going to claim the shutters had been forced open then why didn't they make marks on them to indicate that?
Why didn't Gerry stand sentinel over the open shutters/window until the police arrived - if this was his master-plan - which was going to prove to the police that Madeleine had been abducted by a stranger?
And why on earth would he close the shutters/window BEFORE the police arrived - thus destroying his own plan?
The McCanns were educated intelligent people - not the brainless idiots they would have to be to NOT realise any of the above when they were apparently cooking up this grand plan to exonerate themselves. I would have thought that anyone with a modicum of common sense could see that.
Kate found the window/shutters open and her daughter gone. At that moment in time she would have been abnormal IMO -not to think that an intruder had broken in that way and taken her daughter. And so that was their very first assumption. Later on they accepted that there were other ways an intruder could have entered/left 5A.
Anyone who thinks the McCanns are still claiming today that their child was definitely abducted via the window is way behind the times IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 02:56:43 PM
That was the only part of Heri's theory that I had an issue with.
I didn't think the child would advance towards the window voluntarily and thought she could only have been passed through by an accomplice. My main thought about the open window was as an escape route should the intruder be disturbed.
Then I read that it actually had occurred ...
**snip A three-year-old girl was kidnapped by a stranger through her bedroom window - but miraculously saved when her father and uncle chased her abductor down the street, police have said. The unidentified youngster was allegedly snatched by the hooded man after he leaned through her window at her family's Southern California home on Thursday and told her to 'come toward him'.
Nothing's impossible, but I just find it extremely unlikely.
On the other hand, I haven't found any more news about the recent case of the little girl in France who had apparently been taken out of her bed through what would seem to be open French windows on her bedroom balcony without screaming the place down.
Her parents and sister were sleeping nearby and didn't hear a thing.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 02:59:26 PM
That was the only part of Heri's theory that I had an issue with.
I didn't think the child would advance towards the window voluntarily and thought she could only have been passed through by an accomplice. My main thought about the open window was as an escape route should the intruder be disturbed.
Then I read that it actually had occurred ...
**snip A three-year-old girl was kidnapped by a stranger through her bedroom window - but miraculously saved when her father and uncle chased her abductor down the street, police have said. The unidentified youngster was allegedly snatched by the hooded man after he leaned through her window at her family's Southern California home on Thursday and told her to 'come toward him'.
That Calif child's bed was next to the window - the man grabbed her from outside before she could run from her bed. If the Calif bed had been on the opposite side of the room from the window, certainly she would have run away from the window, out of her bedroom into a different room.
Here's a clue - in the Calif case - and in Heri's anti-instinctive walk to window theory - the bedroom door position would remain unchanged - wouldn't it?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2015, 03:13:44 PM
That California child's bed was next to the window - the man grabbed her from outside before she could run from her bed. If the Calif bed had been on the opposite side of the room from the window, certainly she would have run away from the window, out of her bedroom into a different room.
Here's a clue - in the Calif case - and in Heri's anti-instinctive walk to window theory - the bedroom door position would remain unchanged - wouldn't it?
I don't know the layout of the furniture in the California bedroom, Pegasus, I was going on the aunt's statement that the whole family were in the house and the child was summoned to the window.
The bedroom door in 5A could have been disturbed by Madeleine going to the toilet which would still fit the theory of the child approaching the window.
I remain of the opinion that a key was used to effect entry and exit; whether that was carried out by a lone intruder or one acting with accomplices, I have no idea. The California incident in relation to what happened to Madeleine is food for thought though.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 04:19:33 PM
I don't know the layout of the furniture in the California bedroom, Pegasus, I was going on the aunt's statement that the whole family were in the house and the child was summoned to the window.
The bedroom door in 5A could have been disturbed by Madeleine going to the toilet which would still fit the theory of the child approaching the window.
I remain of the opinion that a key was used to effect entry and exit; whether that was carried out by a lone intruder or one acting with accomplices, I have no idea. The California incident in relation to what happened to Madeleine is food for thought though.
Your idea (enter through a door, grab, and exit through a door) would would take only about 10 seconds total, and the window and shutter would remain unopened. To add the complication of stumbling in almost complete darkness past two cots to open the window and shutter for no purpose would be a pointless and dangerous waste of time. And the noise of opening the shutter would wake the child in the bed who would run to another room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 04:23:13 PM
Your idea (enter through a door, grab, and exit through a door) would would take only about 10 seconds total, and the window and shutter would remain unopened. To add the complication of stumbling in almost complete darkness past two cots to open the window and shutter for no purpose would be a pointless and dangerous waste of time. And the noise of opening the shutter would wake the child in the bed who would run to another room.
The only credible reason to open a window from the inside and raise shutters which anyone can see from the car park is to stage.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 05:30:10 PM
The only reason to open from inside = to stage. The only reason to open from outside = to burgle.
A second reason to open from inside might have been as an alternative exit. It would be less visible for a child checker coming in via the patio door than opening the front door and running out in full view.
However, staging makes the most sense to me. I don't see why the parents would have done that as they both stated that they'd left the patio door unlocked anyway and at the very least also Matt.
The most likely reason, IMO, would still be someone with a key who used the window as a red herring.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2015, 05:57:24 PM
A second reason to open from inside might have been as an alternative exit. It would be less visible for a child checker coming in via the patio door than opening the front door and running out in full view.
However, staging makes the most sense to me. I don't see why the parents would have done that as they both stated that they'd left the patio door unlocked anyway and at the very least also Matt.
The most likely reason, IMO, would still be someone with a key who used the window as a red herring.
To disguise the fact they had access to a key?
If staged they could never have hoped for it to be the diversionary tactic par excellence it turned out to be.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 06:22:33 PM
About this hypothetical who person who has a key and enters and leaves through the front door. And supposedly opens the window and shutter from inside, only to disguise the fact of having a key. A questions: Does this hypothetical person grab the child before, or after, opening window and shutter ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on July 16, 2015, 06:27:14 PM
About this hypothetical who person who has a key and enters and leaves through the front door. And supposedly opens the window and shutter from inside, only to disguise the fact of having a key. A questions: Does this hypothetical person grab the child before, or after, opening window and shutter ?
Would it necessarily be just one person?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 07:01:57 PM
You seem to be stuck in 'day one' of Madeleine's disappearance.
However, if the idea was to open the shutters and window to prove to the police that an intruder had entered that way - then why didn't the McCanns make sure there were scuffs or marks on the wall/window cill to show that?
If they were going to claim the shutters had been forced open then why didn't they make marks on them to indicate that?
Why didn't Gerry stand sentinel over the open shutters/window until the police arrived - if this was his master-plan - which was going to prove to the police that Madeleine had been abducted by a stranger?
And why on earth would he close the shutters/window BEFORE the police arrived - thus destroying his own plan?
The McCanns were educated intelligent people - not the brainless idiots they would have to be to NOT realise any of the above when they were apparently cooking up this grand plan to exonerate themselves. I would have thought that anyone with a modicum of common sense could see that.
Kate found the window/shutters open and her daughter gone. At that moment in time she would have been abnormal IMO -not to think that an intruder had broken in that way and taken her daughter. And so that was their very first assumption. Later on they accepted that there were other ways an intruder could have entered/left 5A.
Anyone who thinks the McCanns are still claiming today that their child was definitely abducted via the window is way behind the times IMO.
Yes G moved on to what? moving goal posts and scenarios to rejig history.
Anyway Benice,
However, if the idea was to open the shutters and window to prove to the police that an intruder had entered that way - then why didn't the McCanns make sure there were scuffs or marks on the wall/window cill to show that?
They were not that smart- leaving three children alone everynight is evidence of that.
If they were going to claim the shutters had been forced open then why didn't they make marks on them to indicate that?
again not that smart...panic set in! if they were jemmied as claimed WHERE indeed is the evidence? Hmm
Why didn't Gerry stand sentinel over the open shutters/window until the police arrived - if this was his master-plan - which was going to prove to the police that Madeleine had been abducted by a stranger?
This is their story why ask me?
And why on earth would he close the shutters/window BEFORE the police arrived - thus destroying his own plan?
Excellent question... why not ask Gerry that- he will have the answer. but we are not allowed to ask questions oh well..
The McCanns were educated intelligent people - not the brainless idiots they would have to be to NOT realise any of the above when they were apparently cooking up this grand plan to exonerate themselves. I would have thought that anyone with a modicum of common sense could see that.
Intelligent? that is desputable. They failed to tell a very simple story exactly as it happened. They and you assume people with a modicum of sense cannot see through this. You would be wrong!
Kate found the window/shutters open and her daughter gone. At that moment in time she would have been abnormal IMO -not to think that an intruder had broken in that way and taken her daughter. And so that was their very first assumption. Later on they accepted that there were other ways an intruder could have entered/left 5A.
Unmittigated Hog Wash of an explanation from someone who was NOT there? You re writing a book?
The jemmied shutters and whooshing curtains were part of the drama of having a child kidnapped fom her bed.
Someone elses version...AT THAT MOMENT Kate recalls she left the doors open -so Maddie could have wandered ( she went looking for her thinking she wandred) she does not want to let people know that her children were left alone in an unlocked flat and that is how she could have been abducted... SO open curtains and jemmied shutters. ( PR-shift the goal posts)
not to think that an intruder had broken in that way and taken her daughter.
oopsy Kate is still claiming she knew right away Maddie was taken...RIGHT AWAY means what it says.
And so that was their very first assumption. They had more theories? oh yes as more people questioned their versions they adapted their story.
Later on they accepted that there were other ways an intruder could have entered/left 5A. [/color]
Hmmmm when they had time to think about what a dogs dinner they made of their versions and that they were being analysed with fine tooth combs made them with the help of PR to adjust their position. Nice.
So.. anyway what was the point in mentioning the Jemmied shutters and whooshing.
And if Kate n Gerry changed their view about windows etc why can't they accept that Maddie may have wandered and been kidnapped?... well we all know the answer to that one! PR PR PR.
In my opinion I always go back to DAY ONE... that is where we will find out wat happened to Maddie. You and the McCanns may have moved on, but the story stays the same as written on pages.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2015, 07:05:54 PM
The only reason to open from inside = to stage. The only reason to open from outside = to burgle.
Other reasons have been listed several times elsewhere on the forum
I will try to remember some
1) As an emergency escape route 2) As a place that chloroform or other equipment could be handed in or out 3) For Tannerman the abductor, to encourage and instruct the nervous lifter who was probably someone known to Madeleine. Someone she trusted. 4) For Tannerman the abductor to receive messages from the third accomplis, the getaway driver. Messages if someone was coming and pass these messages on to the lifter to scarper. The third accomplis being on the fag-end balcony of block 6 opposite. Torch messages probably - flashes. 5) To give the false impression that Madeleine had climbed out of the window herself and gain time. Possibly also not be investigated at all. 6) To take the eye away from the fact that the front door [in blackness and hidden] was almost certainly used. If a key had been "borrowed" or lent by an employee of OC, then the group would not want that discovered. 7) To allow in a little natural light from the limited light outside, or additional light from the torch of Tannerman outside the window. The lifter would not wish to switch the bedroom light on . Also the lifter would want his/her hands free to carry Madeleine
There are other things but I cannot remember them at present.[/size]
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 07:15:47 PM
Other reasons have been listed several times elsewhere on the forum
I will try to remember some
1) As an emergency escape route 2) As a place that chloroform or other equipment could be handed in or out 3) For Tannerman the abductor, to encourage and instruct the nervous lifter who was probably someone known to Madeleine. Someone she trusted. 4) For Tannerman the abductor to receive messages from the third accomplis, the getaway driver. Messages if someone was coming and pass these messages on to the lifter to scarper. The third accomplis being on the fag-end balcony of block 6 opposite. Torch messages probably - flashes. 5) To give the false impression that Madeleine had climbed out of the window herself and gain time. Possibly also not be investigated at all. 6) To take the eye away from the fact that the front door [in blackness and hidden] was almost certainly used. If a key had been "borrowed" or lent by an employee of OC, then the group would not want that discovered. 7) To allow in a little natural light from the limited light outside, or additional light from the torch of Tannerman outside the window. The lifter would not wish to switch the bedroom light on . Also the lifter would want his/her hands free to carry Madeleine
There are other things but I cannot remember them at present.
An emergency exit. Why? The front recessed door is only metres away from her bed. That is all nonsense. How long were they staying for with all the movements that night @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 16, 2015, 07:20:03 PM
No by being quick you don't get caught not wasting time and opening noisy shutters with kids sleeping in that room. Madness!
Not nearly as mad as quickly entering ... quickly lifting a child ... quickly exiting the bedroom carrying the child ... and walking into the child's father in the sitting room ... your quickness leaving you with no escape route.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 16, 2015, 07:46:39 PM
Not nearly as mad as quickly entering ... quickly lifting a child ... quickly exiting the bedroom carrying the child ... and walking into the child's father in the sitting room ... your quickness leaving you with no escape route.
It takes 10 seconds. More likely getting caught trying to raise shutters as somebody may hear it, kids wake up or see from the car park @)(++(* The window opened from the inside is staged and leads to one place.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 16, 2015, 08:02:39 PM
Not nearly as mad as quickly entering ... quickly lifting a child ... quickly exiting the bedroom carrying the child ... and walking into the child's father in the sitting room ... your quickness leaving you with no escape route.
Exactly! They would need to be pretty damn fast... they only had a few minutes to break in- steal child inbetween Gerrys visit and JTs sighting... so fast no time to blink really! hahahaha as if!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 09:02:18 PM
Quote
... to receive messages from the third accomplice, the getaway driver. Messages if someone was coming and pass these messages on to the lifter to scarper. The third accomplice being on the fag-end balcony of block 6 opposite. Torch messages probably - flashes....
There is no direct line of sight from that window to that balcony so you need a fourth accomplice in the car park holding a mirror.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 16, 2015, 09:20:26 PM
There is no direct line of sight from that window to that balcony so you need a fourth accomplice in the car park holding a mirror.
The plan if there was one would have been a simple one ... although there would definitely have been a vehicle involved I doubt it would have been parked in block 5 apartment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 10:58:28 PM
"after Madeleine disappeared I checked some of the windows in our apartment and they weren’t locked" DW rogatory http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DIANE-WEBSTER-2.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 11:01:34 PM
"we didn't ever check the window ... we assumed it was sort of locked" FP rogatory re 5G child bedroom http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/FIONA-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 16, 2015, 11:07:06 PM
"we hadn't checked whether the windows were locked ... you kind of assumed that they were cos the shutters were down" RO rogatory http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RACHAEL-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 16, 2015, 11:48:56 PM
Does anyone agree if a person had opened the shutter & window, with the intention of entering 5a for the purpose of burglary, that same person had not watched the apartment and its occupants during daylight hours?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 12:18:24 AM
Does anyone agree if a person had opened the shutter & window, with the intention of entering 5a for the purpose of burglary, that same person had not watched the apartment and its occupants during daylight hours?
I agree.
A very short surveillance would have revealed that the sliding patio door was open while the parents were dining and was therefore the easiest point of entry for a burglar who didn't have a key to the front door.
Therefore if the shutter and window were opened to allow entry, the person doing the opening had not been watching the prior movement of the family and the invasion was opportunistic .
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 12:26:52 AM
Does anyone agree if a person had opened the shutter & window, with the intention of entering 5a for the purpose of burglary, that same person had not watched the apartment and its occupants during daylight hours?
Probably walked by in daylight, but no more than that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 12:40:05 AM
Here is another nearby burglary, in Feb '07. It is a ground floor apartment which is nearby and which is identical to 5A in room layout, positions of doors, and positions of windows. Mobile phones, a camcorder, and some money were stolen. There was no forced entry. A window and the balcony door were both found to have been opened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 12:42:35 AM
Here is another nearby burglary, in Feb '07. It is a ground floor apartment which is nearby and which is identical to 5A in room layout, positions of doors, and positions of windows. Mobile phones, a camcorder, and some money were stolen. There was no forced entry. A window and the balcony door were both found to have been opened.
Entry via the window ... exit via the balcony door?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 12:43:39 AM
A very short surveillance would have revealed that the sliding patio door was open while the parents were dining and was therefore the easiest point of entry for a burglar who didn't have a key to the front door.
Therefore if the shutter and window were opened to allow entry, the person doing the opening had not been watching the prior movement of the family and the invasion was opportunistic .
I was thinking more along the lines that watching during the day would have made any potential intruder aware that there were 2 adults & 3 children in the apartment. The adults left on their own at dusk.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 12:50:12 AM
I was thinking more along the lines that watching during the day would have made any potential intruder aware that there were 2 adults & 3 children in the apartment. The adults left on their own at dusk.
So you think the opening of the shutter and the window was opportunistic? Why no evidence of entry? Was he disturbed? Or do you think rather than a planned abduction it was unplanned and just happened?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 01:00:33 AM
I was thinking more along the lines that watching during the day would have made any potential intruder aware that there were 2 adults & 3 children in the apartment. The adults left on their own at dusk.
I think you are overestimating how long a burglar watches a place. If he sees tourists leave the apartment, turning off lights as they leave, he reasonably concludes everyone is now out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 01:02:45 AM
A very short surveillance would have revealed that the sliding patio door was open while the parents were dining and was therefore the easiest point of entry for a burglar who didn't have a key to the front door.
Therefore if the shutter and window were opened to allow entry, the person doing the opening had not been watching the prior movement of the family and the invasion was opportunistic .
Trouble was that the patio area was illuminated by the street lamp opposite and the patio window mainly on view to the Tapas group sitting just about 50 metres away.
To enter or leave, the curtain would have had to be pulled back and a shaft of light from the sitting room lamp would have been aparant to the group. I think a change in the light would have alerted the group, and they would have seen the man himself.
Amaral did not believe that any intruder would have gone in, or left, that way. He said it was too overlooked by the group members.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 01:04:01 AM
That's my guess too. In through window/shutter opened by heri method, can't exit through deadlocked front door, so exit through balcony door, all IMO.
5A balcony door exit leads directly onto a public road and there is little or no visibility of pedestrians before reaching the side gate. Intruders normally enter properties via doors or windows so the cases you are highlighting are only unusual in that none of them appear to have evidence of forced entry. If there is a link, police would have been investigating OC staff for knowledge of occupancy & access to keys. The fact that most of the Tapas 9 found some windows unlocked suggests cleaning staff may have been complicit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 01:06:37 AM
I think you are overestimating how long a burglar watches a place. If he sees the tourists go out turning off lights as they leave, any reasonably intelligent burglar knows everyone is now out.
Do you think that was the case here that he thought the premises were empty ... was shocked to find the children in the room ... and made off without entry?
I think there is too much evidence supporting that in the preceding days the McCanns? but certainly the apartment had been under surveillance. I don't think it was to conduct a petty burglary ... I think Madeleine was the target.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 01:10:11 AM
I think you are overestimating how long a burglar watches a place. If he sees tourists leave the apartment, turning off lights as they leave, he reasonably concludes everyone is now out.
Just because 2 people leave an apartment doesn't mean there is nobody else in there, like a babysitter. The McCanns also left a light on, which would have been visible. A solo operator cannot watch both front & rear at the same time. The front of Block 5 was rather busy between 8.20 & 9.15. Would anyone have hung around there & chanced their luck?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 01:13:05 AM
Do you think that was the case here that he thought the premises were empty ... was shocked to find the children in the room ... and made off without entry?
I think there is too much evidence supporting that in the preceding days the McCanns? but certainly the apartment had been under surveillance. I don't think it was to conduct a petty burglary ... I think Madeleine was the target.
I agree
Too much evidence supporting the fact that the apartment had been under surveillance.
I too think that Madeleine was targeted .. and the whole thing planned in detail.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 01:14:39 AM
Do you think that was the case here that he thought the premises were empty ... was shocked to find the children in the room ... and made off without entry?
I think there is too much evidence supporting that in the preceding days the McCanns? but certainly the apartment had been under surveillance. I don't think it was to conduct a petty burglary ... I think Madeleine was the target.
Yes, it looked like everyone was out.
Innocent people standing in the street IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 01:15:26 AM
5A balcony door exit leads directly onto a public road and there is little or no visibility of pedestrians before reaching the side gate. Intruders normally enter properties via doors or windows so the cases you are highlighting are only unusual in that none of them appear to have evidence of forced entry. If there is a link, police would have been investigating OC staff for knowledge of occupancy & access to keys. The fact that most of the Tapas 9 found some windows unlocked suggests cleaning staff may have been complicit.
Never thought of that, Misty.
Given the rogatory statements cited by Pegasus and the unlocked windows mentioned in them ... the gamble was that no-one would notice the windows were not locked and on this occasion it worked. But even if some had been an accomplice would have known which windows to try.
Maybe 5A was first in line ... the penultimate day of a holiday is the day of choice for petty burglaries of tourists.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 01:15:57 AM
Just because 2 people leave an apartment doesn't mean there is nobody else in there, like a babysitter. The McCanns also left a light on, which would have been visible. A solo operator cannot watch both front & rear at the same time. The front of Block 5 was rather busy between 8.20 & 9.15. Would anyone have hung around there & chanced their luck?
Only if there was a second person watching the comings and goings, to warn the first person, IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 01:20:21 AM
So you think the opening of the shutter and the window was opportunistic? Why no evidence of entry? Was he disturbed? Or do you think rather than a planned abduction it was unplanned and just happened?
It was planned, it had been planned for a long time. It was executed after logistical issues had been addressed and the perfect victim had been selected. Much is in the files, if you look in the right places. It's just a question of exactly why there was such a level of protection afforded and the difficulty in untangling that web.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 01:23:38 AM
Just because 2 people leave an apartment doesn't mean there is nobody else in there, like a babysitter. The McCanns also left a light on, which would have been visible. A solo operator cannot watch both front & rear at the same time. The front of Block 5 was rather busy between 8.20 & 9.15. Would anyone have hung around there & chanced their luck?
Any reasonably intelligent burglar would conclude everyone was out. If there were children and a babysitter present the couple would not turn off all lights except a tablelamp when they left.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 01:33:54 AM
Any reasonably intelligent burglar would conclude everyone was out. If there were children and a babysitter present the couple would not turn off all lights except a tablelamp when they left.
How could the burglar see all lights were off if the shutters were down? Did he go onto the balcony & peer through into the lounge & the parents' bedroom?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on July 17, 2015, 01:36:18 AM
Only if there was a second person watching the comings and goings, to warn the first person, IMO
I totally agree there Sadie. Whether it was a burglary gone wrong or abduction , there would certainly be more than one person involved. It would have been swiftly executed and well planned. As soon as a parent left after checking the child, would have been the safest and most likely time to be in and out again. How could anyone have known that Gerry would be delayed and chatting to someone just around the corner and JT would arrive at the same time.? I still believe that it was a duplicate key and in the door and child passed out of the window job…..If it was an abduction.
Room keys were kept in:
Garage for maintenance workers who had the combination for the lock Laundry for cleaners, who didn’t have to take the key back whilst they were on lunch break Reception for general use and clients.
(15) That the keys to the living quarters and apartments are under the responsibility of the Ocean Club, and are found guarded in the interior of a safe which is in the Maintenance Garage, whose opening code is known by all maintenance workers (25) During lunchtime, the keys are kept by the cleaners and are not deposited in the safes. As far as she knows, the laundry only has one copy of each key, thinking that more keys corresponding to the apartments are kept in the reception.
15.……… Miguel Goncalves Da Costa Palma Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H40 Muti-purpose Operator Portuguese . http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-30.html 25.……… .Natália da Glória Soares Camacho Date: 2007-05-09 Occupation: Cleaner Place of Work: OC26----------------------------------------------- http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post235.html#p235
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 17, 2015, 01:37:52 AM
It was planned, it had been planned for a long time. It was executed after logistical issues had been addressed and the perfect victim had been selected. Much is in the files, if you look in the right places. It's just a question of exactly why there was such a level of protection afforded and the difficulty in untangling that web.
I am interested in what Sadie has to say on the Groundhog thread about the extraordinary behaviour of the police regarding the Porto sighting. I will need to refresh on that because it is quite complicated. Maybe HOLMES spotted it.
The only thing I don't know is was it specifically Madeleine they were after ... or was she just a child who fitted the bill in the appropriate location. 5A lent itself to carrying out such an operation which I think would have happened whether her parents were there or not, that was just a bonus.
I don't think the Casa Pia situation was ever fully resolved, I think the big fish are still swimming, so there might have been an element there.
Perhaps if there hadn't been such a song and dance over Madeleine the situation could have become much worse because not only do these people think they are untouchable it appears they may be.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 01:58:23 AM
How could the burglar see all lights were off if the shutters were down? Did he go onto the balcony & peer through into the lounge & the parents' bedroom?
Shutters and curtains do not stop all light. The shutters have light leakage built in to their design. Lounge sliding door had both shutters open. IIRC one side window had shutter open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:01:19 AM
Here is proof that you can tell when people go out, by looking at windows and seeing when they turn lights out. 5H observed from restaurant and from street - it's in the files.
"you could see the light on in their apartment, you could see it from the Tapas and you could see them moving around so you knew they were still there" and then "as I was leaving the Tapas area, you know, and their light going off and knowing that they were coming down and on their way"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 02:25:25 AM
Here is proof that you can tell when people go out, by looking at windows and seeing when they turn lights out. 5H observed from restaurant and from street - it's in the files.
"you could see the light on in their apartment, you could see it from the Tapas and you could see them moving around so you knew they were still there" and then "as I was leaving the Tapas area, you know, and their light going off and knowing that they were coming down and on their way"
If anyone could see the Paynes moving around then the shutters weren't down. 5A front window was partly illuminated by a street light. That would affect a person's ability to judge from any distance if an interior light was on behind the shutters & curtains. The front door has no glass panel in it for light to shine through.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:30:57 AM
If anyone could see the Paynes moving around then the shutters weren't down. 5A front window was partly illuminated by a street light. That would affect a person's ability to judge from any distance if an interior light was on behind the shutters & curtains. The front door has no glass panel in it for light to shine through.
At 5A the shutter of kitchen window was up, and both shutters of lounge balcony door were up.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 02:37:50 AM
At 5A the shutter of kitchen window was up, and both shutters of lounge balcony door were up.
So, therefore, unoccupancy could not be guaranteed if a light was visible through the kitchen window. Where has it been proven that both patio door shutters were open, please? Crime scene photo shows one raised, one fully lowered.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:47:22 AM
So, therefore, unoccupancy could not be guaranteed if a light was visible through the kitchen window. Where has it been proven that both patio door shutters were open, please? Crime scene photo shows one raised, one fully lowered.
The lounge door has two shutters both were up.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 17, 2015, 03:06:48 AM
My apologies. Going from memory I thought one shutter was fully lowered. I will look tomorrow to see why I held that belief. So some light would have been visible through the curtains? Was it ever established that the heavy curtains were fully closed?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 12:42:15 PM
I totally agree there Sadie. Whether it was a burglary gone wrong or abduction , there would certainly be more than one person involved. It would have been swiftly executed and well planned. As soon as a parent left after checking the child, would have been the safest and most likely time to be in and out again. How could anyone have known that Gerry would be delayed and chatting to someone just around the corner and JT would arrive at the same time.? I still believe that it was a duplicate key and in the door and child passed out of the window job…..If it was an abduction.
Room keys were kept in:
Garage for maintenance workers who had the combination for the lock Laundry for cleaners, who didn’t have to take the key back whilst they were on lunch break Reception for general use and clients.
(15) That the keys to the living quarters and apartments are under the responsibility of the Ocean Club, and are found guarded in the interior of a safe which is in the Maintenance Garage, whose opening code is known by all maintenance workers (25) During lunchtime, the keys are kept by the cleaners and are not deposited in the safes. As far as she knows, the laundry only has one copy of each key, thinking that more keys corresponding to the apartments are kept in the reception.
15.……… Miguel Goncalves Da Costa Palma Date/Time: 2007/05/07 18H40 Muti-purpose Operator Portuguese . http://themaddiecasefiles.com/topic9-30.html 25.……… .Natália da Glória Soares Camacho Date: 2007-05-09 Occupation: Cleaner Place of Work: OC26----------------------------------------------- http://themaddiecasefiles.com/post235.html#p235
A lot of good work in yout post Anna; that info took some gathering
Well done you 8@??)(
The names of the keynolders might be interesting (to me).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 12:57:17 PM
I am interested in what Sadie has to say on the Groundhog thread about the extraordinary behaviour of the police regarding the Porto sighting. I will need to refresh on that because it is quite complicated. Maybe HOLMES spotted it.
The only thing I don't know is was it specifically Madeleine they were after ... or was she just a child who fitted the bill in the appropriate location. 5A lent itself to carrying out such an operation which I think would have happened whether her parents were there or not, that was just a bonus.
I don't think the Casa Pia situation was ever fully resolved, I think the big fish are still swimming, so there might have been an element there.
Perhaps if there hadn't been such a song and dance over Madeleine the situation could have become much worse because not only do these people think they are untouchable it appears they may be.
Some good thinking there Brietta.
Unhappily, I think they have such an important group backing them, which might come tumbling, that they are untouchables.
The group sells itself impecably as a whiter than white organisation and with leading World figures as its members, I cant think that any Police Force will be able to do anything. I hope that I am wrong.
Has anyone else noticed how the badies seem to be elevated into imposing and whiter than white positions?
Tha Catholic Church especially has raised the status of pedo offenders as well as moved them elsewhere, where often/ usually they start all over again. Elevating their status makes them more tricky to prosecute.
When i am better, I will talk to you about the Porto situation as i see it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 17, 2015, 01:19:04 PM
It was planned, it had been planned for a long time. It was executed after logistical issues had been addressed and the perfect victim had been selected. Much is in the files, if you look in the right places. It's just a question of exactly why there was such a level of protection afforded and the difficulty in untangling that web.
8((()*/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 17, 2015, 02:05:15 PM
A USA case of unlocked window opened from outside. http://www.mercurynews.com/breaking-news/ci_21047302/girl-12-calls-cops-while-hiding-closet-during Response of child in that case was to hide in another room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 10:28:27 AM
The shutters being raised up a little as seen in the crime scene photo was done by Dianne Webster according to her rog.
“I think I got it up so far but it became sort of err twisted.”
Yes IMO, first is test by GM, and after that is test by DW. (Test by FP was not on this window it was was on on adult bedroom door shutter)
If Gerry did touch the shutters then he must have pulled them back down because when Dianne got there they were down not raised. Dianne got to the apartment 5 minutes after the alarm and only Kate was present.
But Gerry contradicts it in his statement
Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside.
So they should be raised not down when Dianne got there &%+((£
They continued with searches outside around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW who went to the secondary reception [where] the event was communicated to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been kidnapped [abducted]. He refutes, peremptorily, the notion [idea/hypothesis] that MADELEINE could have left the apartment by her own means.
He told Matt? It was Fiona according to her and Matt. Another query in his statement that was signed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 06:01:34 PM
"Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do"
When pushed up from outside, the shutter does not stay all the way up by itself -it falls back down again. IMO he managed to raise the shutter a good fraction of the way open, but then let it fall down again by its own weight.
Exactly as in the video of Pat Brown's friend opening this shutter. If you watch that video - that is what I think GM did. So at the end of his test, it is closed. Just like in the PB friend video.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 06:47:56 PM
"Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do"
When pushed up from outside, the shutter does not stay all the way up by itself -it falls back down again. IMO he managed to raise the shutter a good fraction of the way open, but then let it fall down again by its own weight.
Exactly as in the video of Pat Brown's friend opening this shutter. If you watch that video - that is what I think GM did. So at the end of his test, it is closed. Just like in the PB friend video.
Thanks that will explain why they were down so how did Kate find them in a raised position? Why would you leave them in a raised position if they fall back down. Leave it open for anyone to see and give chase. That's the reason the PJ thought two were involved - originally Matt and Russell. One passing the child though the window to the other but when you look into it it's the most ridiculous plan ever when a safer unseen recessed door from the car park is only metres away. Full of holes.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 07:28:41 PM
Thanks that will explain why they were down so how did Kate find them in a raised position? Why would you leave them in a raised position if they fall back down. Leave it open for anyone to see and give chase. That's the reason the PJ thought two were involved - originally Matt and Russell. One passing the child though the window to the other but when you look into it it's the most ridiculous plan ever when a safer unseen recessed door from the car park is only metres away. Full of holes.
Quite simply the shutters were in the raised position when Dr Kate McCann saw them because the person who raised them knew how to do it.
You know that Heri has demonstrated how easy it is to do as he demonstrates here ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 07:33:56 PM
Do you have a theory as to what time they were opened?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 07:35:37 PM
Thanks that will explain why they were down so how did Kate find them in a raised position? Why would you leave them in a raised position if they fall back down. Leave it open for anyone to see and give chase. That's the reason the PJ thought two were involved - originally Matt and Russell. One passing the child though the window to the other but when you look into it it's the most ridiculous plan ever when a safer unseen recessed door from the car park is only metres away. Full of holes.
Two different mechanical situations -
If you raise the shutter using the strap - the strap rotates a shaft and rolls up the shutter slats around the shaft. The shutter stays up when you let go of the strap.
But if you raise the shutter by pushing up at the bottom of the shutter - the slats get pushed up into the top housing but do not get wound around the shaft, so they fall down out of top housing when you let go. See PB video to see this happening.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 07:40:10 PM
Here is the technique: 1. Raise shutter from outside by only about 30cm using two hands. 2. While holding shutter 30cm up with left hand, slide window open with right hand. 3. While holding shutter 30cm up with left hand, reach in with right hand to operate strap to open shutter fully. The shutter now stays up by itself. 4. Climb in Obviously if, at the moment of completing step 3, the person gets disturbed by someone, the person will leave the scene quickly and not do step 4.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 07:40:48 PM
Quite simply the shutters were in the raised position when Dr Kate McCann saw them because the person who raised them knew how to do it.
You know that Heri has demonstrated how easy it is to do as he demonstrates here ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
ONLY if the window was not shut to and someone could easily open it. If it was, it is just a theory/speculation.
This theory (that the window was open) also sheds light on the scant regard the parents had for safety. Not only for their possessions but with regard to leaving three toddlers on their own. You only nip to the shops for five minutes but make sure you don't leave accessible windows unchecked!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 20, 2015, 07:48:44 PM
ONLY if the window was not shut to and someone could easily open it. If it was, it is just a theory/speculation.
This theory (that the window was open) also sheds light on the scant regard the parents had for safety. Not only for their possessions but with regard to leaving three toddlers on their own. You only nip to the shops for five minutes but make sure you don't leave accessible windows unchecked!
The witness evidence that the window was open and the shutter up ...
Unfortunately the Drs McCann thought when the shutter was down it was locked and secure. Hence Dr Gerry McCann checking it out by lowering the shutter and going outside to 'prove' it could not be raised from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 07:50:20 PM
The witness evidence that the window was open and the shutter up ...
Unfortunately the Drs McCann thought when the shutter was down it was locked and secure. Hence Dr Gerry McCann checking it out by lowering the shutter and going outside to 'prove' it could not be raised from outside.
Read again. there is no evidence the kids' bedroom window was left open IN ORDER for someone who managed to raise the shutter from outside, could slide it (the window) across and hence put his hand in anc use the strap to pull on the mechanism that raises and stops the shutters (up ) as PER Heribertos theory
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 07:55:39 PM
The witness evidence that the window was open and the shutter up ...
Unfortunately the Drs McCann thought when the shutter was down it was locked and secure. Hence Dr Gerry McCann checking it out by lowering the shutter and going outside to 'prove' it could not be raised from outside.
Yes the point is that GM doubted that opening from outside was possible. His test was completely genuine (and not acting as some claim). But like Amaral and possibly like SY even now, he failed to solve the method - he got only 1 of the 3 steps.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 20, 2015, 07:57:55 PM
Read again. there is no evidence the kids' bedroom window was left open IN ORDER for someone who managed to raise the shutter from outside, could slide it (the window) across and hence put his hand in anc use the strap to pull on the mechanism that raises and stops the shutters (up ) as PER Heribertos theory
Read what again?
Did you state somewhere "the kids' bedroom window was left open IN ORDER for someone who managed to raise the shutter from outside, could slide it (the window) across and hence put his hand in anc use the strap to pull on the mechanism that raises and stops the shutters (up ) as PER Heribertos theory"? because I certainly said nothing of the kind and neither did Heri.
Quote "4. May 3rd. 2007: between 21:40 and 21:49 approximately the abductor, a burglar who was an Ocean Club employee or who had received information from an Ocen Club employee (and who had not the intention to abduct a child), took Madeleine without entering the apartment 5A, opening the window from the outside, without damaging it (the glass panes were closed but unlocked). Awakened by the noise and/or light from the opening, Madeleine went to the window thinking it was one of her parents, somewhat somnolent and very tired, and was taken by the burglar who panicked". Heri: end quote
The demonstration shows how easy it was for an individual, who may have been opportunistically acting on his own, or with accomplices in a pre-planned operation to raise the shutter in about fifty seconds.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on July 20, 2015, 09:04:48 PM
Why didn't Matthew Oldfield notice then? Shutter open, window open, curtains open Kate said.
Maybe the disappearance happened after that check. Between 9.30pm and 9.40pm, when JT went to relieve take over from her husband who was tending his sick child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 09:21:40 PM
Quite simply the shutters were in the raised position when Dr Kate McCann saw them because the person who raised them knew how to do it.
You know that Heri has demonstrated how easy it is to do as he demonstrates here ... http://espacioexterior.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/the-madeleine-mccann-abduction-janosch.html
Only her fingerprints were identified on the window and no glove marks.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 09:35:10 PM
Why didn't Matthew Oldfield notice then? Shutter open, window open, curtains open Kate said.
My opinion of when the window and shutter were opened is "After about 8.30pm (parents depart) but before about 10.00pm (mother arrives)".
IMO it is possible they might have been opened before 9.30pm.
At the 10pm check the only reason the open window and shutter were noticed was because the checker closed then opened the bedroom door causing sudden air pressure adjustments which blew curtains which were blocking checker's view of the open window and shutter. IMO if 9.30pm checker had closed then opened bedroom door he might have noticed exactly same as the 10pm checker.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 20, 2015, 09:53:55 PM
If Gerry did touch the shutters then he must have pulled them back down because when Dianne got there they were down not raised. Dianne got to the apartment 5 minutes after the alarm and only Kate was present.
But Gerry contradicts it in his statement
Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside.
So they should be raised not down when Dianne got there &%+((£
They continued with searches outside around the various apartment blocks, the deponent having asked MATHEW who went to the secondary reception [where] the event was communicated to the local police, since he had no doubt that his daughter had been kidnapped [abducted]. He refutes, peremptorily, the notion [idea/hypothesis] that MADELEINE could have left the apartment by her own means.
He told Matt? It was Fiona according to her and Matt. Another query in his statement that was signed.
IMO It's quite possible that they both told Matt.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 09:54:43 PM
Did you state somewhere "the kids' bedroom window was left open IN ORDER for someone who managed to raise the shutter from outside, could slide it (the window) across and hence put his hand in anc use the strap to pull on the mechanism that raises and stops the shutters (up ) as PER Heribertos theory"? because I certainly said nothing of the kind and neither did Heri.
Quote "4. May 3rd. 2007: between 21:40 and 21:49 approximately the abductor, a burglar who was an Ocean Club employee or who had received information from an Ocen Club employee (and who had not the intention to abduct a child), took Madeleine without entering the apartment 5A, opening the window from the outside, without damaging it (the glass panes were closed but unlocked). Awakened by the noise and/or light from the opening, Madeleine went to the window thinking it was one of her parents, somewhat somnolent and very tired, and was taken by the burglar who panicked". Heri: end quote
The demonstration shows how easy it was for an individual, who may have been opportunistically acting on his own, or with accomplices in a pre-planned operation to raise the shutter in about fifty seconds.
Why do you have to make such a meal of everythng. It is very simple. All I pointed out to you was the fact that Heribertos (or anyone else's) theory of burglar entry via shutter and window or non entry but opening shutters and window to lift a child out of it is not feasible unless it is a fact (and it is not presently) that the window was not secured, IE CLOSED. And windows can be closed but not LOCKED. That's all.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 20, 2015, 10:25:08 PM
Not if he wasn't there. Matt didn't see Gerry again after they split up to search until he came to the reception at 10:40.
I think it's Stuart HILL or, well the Manager, the sort of Manager got involved, that might have been when it occurred. Erm, so there was plenty of running around through the back streets and back to the apartment and then, you know, where's the, where are the Police, where are the Police, erm, and so went back down to the reception, this would have been about thirty minutes or so later, erm, back to reception, erm, and at that point, Gerry had come down as well.
Dave and Russell were just running off sort of shouting, so Fiona, I think, asked me to go and phone the Police.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 11:16:39 PM
Some of the windows in 5G were discovered afterwards to be closed but not locked. What is so unlikely about a window in 5A being closed but not locked?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 11:22:01 PM
Some of the windows in 5G were discovered afterwards to be closed but not locked. What is so unlikely about a window in 5A being closed but not locked?
Security wise Windows are designed to be closed or closed and locked. No window can be described as closed if it is actually OPEN
?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 11:24:39 PM
In only 1 of the 4 T9 apartments did the occupants check all windows were locked before they went out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 11:27:36 PM
In only 1 of the 4 T9 apartments did the occupants check all windows were locked before they went out.
Shame on them then, leaving their kids in there before securing the flats
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 11:30:05 PM
There is no such thing as a window in this day and age whch doesn't shut closed to the outside, even though it is not locked with a key for extra security if there is, I'd love to see it, also an explanation of if it wasn't faulty, what would the point of it be?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 11:30:56 PM
Security wise Windows are designed to be closed or closed and locked. No window can be described as closed if it is actually OPEN
?
The child's window can be "Open" or "Closed And Locked" or "Closed But Not Locked". Anyone who claims the third is not possible has not looked at the design and has not read DW rog statement.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 11:33:27 PM
The child's window can be "Open" or "Closed And Locked" or "Closed But Not Locked". Anyone who claims the third is not possible has not looked at the design and has not read DW rog statement.
Closed but not locked allows an outsider to just slide it open then? I don't believe it
My double glazing shuts but even if not locked does not allow an outsider My kitchen door closes but you have to lift the handle and lock it with a key as there is a handle on the other side. Was there a handle on the outside of the bedroom window to open the window or was it just a case of sliding it open...without glove or fingerprints I might add
Are you 100 per cent sure and confident that the apartments had windows which unless locked were easily opened from the outside?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 11:35:43 PM
There is no such thing as a window in this day and age whch doesn't shut closed to the outside, even though it is not locked with a key for extra security if there is, I'd love to see it, also an explanation of if it wasn't faulty, what would the point of it be?
Look at close-up photos of the child's window lock mechanism. It does not autolock. Look at the hole the lockpin goes in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 11:38:10 PM
Closed but not locked allows an outsider to just slide it open then? I don't believe it
My double glazing shuts but even if not locked does not allow an outsider My kitchen door closes but you have to lift the handle and lock it with a key as there is a handle on the other side. Was there a handle on the outside of the bedroom window to open the window or was it just a case of sliding it open...without glove or fingerprints I might add
Are you 100 per cent sure and confident that the apartments had windows which unless locked were easily opened from the outside?
1. Yes. 2. From outside - no handle - just a case of sliding it. 3. Yes absolutely for this window. And probably yes for most other apartments in blocks 4 and 5 because they probably mostly or all still had the windows fitted as newbuild.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 11:42:14 PM
Which prove closed (in the real meaning) can be opened? I don't think so. But as you will.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 20, 2015, 11:48:10 PM
getting back to the point, no one knows why and if anyone opened the shutters and window, it's all plain speculation which actually doesn't lead anywhere much?? At all, IE is not even evidence/proof of anything, unless you want to be here n 2089 still wondering
I wonder if Google Earth will in the future release pictures of any spot on earth at any one time, that might be interesting
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 20, 2015, 11:56:37 PM
The child's sliding window can be completely closed and completely unlocked. Ask witness DW (same design windows in 5G).
yes Pegasus, everyone knows a window can be closed but unlocked, the question IS can a closed window be opened from outside by anyonee? it's like pulling teeth at the moment
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 21, 2015, 12:15:10 AM
You must think they were the worst parents ever. They close the shutters and draw the curtains for the week but forget to check if the window is locked in their kids room. Man this must be some kind of record for crap parenting or maybe that's what they want you to puzzle over. You wouldn't check if the windows were locked in your kids room where they slept alone? Did they want them to open it and fall out? Too many coincidences.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 12:29:51 AM
You must think they were the worst parents ever. They close the shutters and draw the curtains for the week but forget to check if the window is locked in their kids room. Man this must be some kind of record for crap parenting or maybe that's what they want you to puzzle over. You wouldn't check if the windows were locked in your kids room where they slept alone? Did they want them to open it and fall out? Too many coincidences.
They were totally crap but you're wrong the didn't even check or touch the windows and shutters all week "apparently". not even to let in fresh air! let alone secure the safety of their babies. A load of TOTAL baloney if youask me. or else they really were that crap
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 21, 2015, 12:41:59 AM
They were totally crap but you're wrong the didn't even check or touch the windows and shutters all week "apparently". not even to let in fresh air! let alone secure the safety of their babies. A load of TOTAL baloney if youask me. or else they really were that crap
I believe the apartments had an air ventilation system in them which meant there was no need to open the windows to air the rooms (I stand to be corrected if this was not the case). How many people who rent a holiday apartment check that the windows are all locked each day, especially when there are metal shutters protecting the exterior? There's more of a risk of losing items to the staff who have a legitimate reason to be in your apartment (and when you report the theft of a camera hotel management just don't want to know).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 12:50:25 AM
Yes ok misty next time you go out and leave your babies on their own without knowing if the windows are secure at least or there is no way they can get out let us know
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 01:14:03 AM
yes Pegasus, everyone knows a window can be closed but unlocked, the question IS can a closed window be opened from outside by anyonee? it's like pulling teeth at the moment
IF the window lock button was not pressed in, the window (and shutter) couild certainly be opened from outside without damage. If the lock button was pressed in. then it's impossible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 01:19:51 AM
The window and shutter have implications which extend far beyond the fact they were opened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 21, 2015, 01:28:48 AM
The window and shutter have implications which extend far beyond the fact they were opened.
In what respect?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on July 21, 2015, 01:57:58 AM
My windows and patio doors are NOT of the same design as 5A, but they do illustrate thinking here.
Position 1. Handle down. Both closed and locked. Position 2. Handle up. The door is locked securely, but it pivots at the bottom to let air in. Position 3. Handle horizontal. The door is not locked, whether closed or open. If closed in position 3, my doors/windows need a hefty push to open from outside, but they are not locked.
Back to 5A, where the design was sliding with a central pin to secure the patio doors and windows. I have lived in properties like that before. It is very easy to mistake shut (pin not pushed in) for locked (pin pushed in). I have woken up many a morning to find the family left multiple windows/doors unlocked.
Was the 5A window secured i.e. locked? I would love to know the answer to that one.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 02:19:08 AM
My windows and patio doors are NOT of the same design as 5A, but they do illustrate thinking here.
Position 1. Handle down. Both closed and locked. Position 2. Handle up. The door is locked securely, but it pivots at the bottom to let air in. Position 3. Handle horizontal. The door is not locked, whether closed or open. If closed in position 3, my doors/windows need a hefty push to open from outside, but they are not locked.
Back to 5A, where the design was sliding with a central pin to secure the patio doors and windows. I have lived in properties like that before. It is very easy to mistake shut (pin not pushed in) for locked (pin pushed in). I have woken up many a morning to find the family left multiple windows/doors unlocked. Was the 5A window secured i.e. locked? I would love to know the answer to that one.
With respect, there are many window designs in the world, but all other window designs in the world are irrelevant to this child except the actual design in her room. The handle on her window was fixed (it does not rotate up or down like yours). It had two buttons on it. Lock button, and unlock button. If you press either button in, the other button comes out. When you slide the window fully closed, it is not locked. The only way to lock it is to press the lock button in. If you don't do that then, even though it is fully closed, it is unlocked. Sources: PJ forensic photos, and VdM video.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 21, 2015, 02:31:46 AM
With respect, there are many window designs in the world, but all other window designs in the world are irrelevant to this child except the actual design in her room. The handle on her window was fixed. It had two buttons on it. Lock button, and unlock button. If you press either button in, the other button comes out. When you slide the window fully closed, it is not locked. The only way to lock it is to press the lock button in. If you don't do that then, even though it is fully closed, it is unlocked.
If the window buttons were clear of any prints, then whoever cleaned the window last would surely have been aware that the window was unlocked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 02:39:19 AM
If the window buttons were clear of any prints, then whoever cleaned the window last would surely have been aware that the window was unlocked.
After the apparant disappearance, DW checked the windows in 5H, and found that some windows although closed were unlocked. (corrected apartment number)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on July 21, 2015, 02:53:43 AM
After the apparant disappearance, DW checked the windows in 5G, and found that some windows although closed were unlocked.
So Ocean Club had a responsibility to remind all guests to ensure that their windows were locked when they left the apartment, due to the spate of burglaries where windows were deemed to be a regular point of entry?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 03:11:29 AM
So Ocean Club had a responsibility to remind all guests to ensure that their windows were locked when they left the apartment, due to the spate of burglaries where windows were deemed to be a regular point of entry?
IMO it's an obvious thing for the adults to check, when a family goes out for a meal, that the doors and windows are all locked (otherwise someone might get in while everyone is out and steal passports cameras cash etc).
Or do you think it was the holiday company's obligation to post a notice stating the fairly obvious: "Lock all windows and doors before leaving the apartment unoccupied" ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 21, 2015, 10:54:38 AM
IMO it's an obvious thing for the adults to check, when a family goes out for a meal, that the doors and windows are all locked (otherwise someone might get in while everyone is out and steal passports cameras cash etc).
Or do you think it was the holiday company's obligation to post a notice stating the fairly obvious: "Lock all windows and doors before leaving the apartment unoccupied" ?
If I were staying in accommodation which had the benefit of outside shutters I would have considered that if they were down that was my security ... I might even have felt secure enough to have left the interior window ajar for ventilation secure in the 'knowledge' the shutter could not be raised from the outside.
It was vociferously denied by those who doubt that it was possible to raise the shutters at apartment 5A from the outside. It was only Pat Brown's video demonstration of it being done that forced the reluctant acceptance that it could be done.
Apartment 5A is an almost perfect example of a petty burglar's 'dream' target. There had been entry via windows in that apartment block. One member of staff who has attracted the derision of those who doubt for detailing her experience ... had reported a prowler lurking in the bushes in the dark to her employers.
Yes ... I do believe the holiday company had a duty of care ... according to the statements in the files from employees ... the incidence of burglaries at the complex was common place and must have been known to management.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 21, 2015, 06:45:19 PM
???
Where has Misty gone? It says "Guest" under the name.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on July 21, 2015, 07:40:36 PM
Where has Misty gone? It says "Guest" under the name.
You're right.
???
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 21, 2015, 11:06:54 PM
The key to understanding the first third of what happened that night, IMO is to simply work out exactly step by step what would happen if a burglar thinking everyone was out opened the shutter and window from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 21, 2015, 11:33:35 PM
After the apparant disappearance, DW checked the windows in 5H, and found that some windows although closed were unlocked. (corrected apartment number)
there is the window where we found Kate’s finger prints, the mother of the girl. She said that she had never touched that window, and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day. (GA)
The windows were closed and the curtains slightly open. Gerry, who followed her and the elements of the GNR, said he did close the window because of the babies sleeping in the room, a fact she confirms.
there is the window where we found Kate’s finger prints, the mother of the girl. She said that she had never touched that window, and the cleaning lady assured that she had cleaned it on the previous day. (GA)
All 5 of her prints were on the inside surface of the glass pathfinder. Read the forensic document - it's in portuguese obviously. Notice the word "vidro". Look it up in a dictionary.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 27, 2015, 06:58:59 PM
They were totally crap but you're wrong the didn't even check or touch the windows and shutters all week "apparently". not even to let in fresh air! let alone secure the safety of their babies. A load of TOTAL baloney if youask me. or else they really were that crap
It was Kate who said she knew right away Maddie was abucted, because of the window and shutters being open! That story was relayed to the UK public as being OMG shutters were jemmied and window was open and Maddie was gone! So.. what were we to make of that?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 27, 2015, 07:04:09 PM
It was Kate who said she knew right away Maddie was abucted, because of the window and shutters being open! That story was relayed to the UK public as being OMG shutters were jemmied and window was open and Maddie was gone! So.. what were we to make of that?
The Shutters were smashed apparently, well, not, in reality,at all
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 27, 2015, 07:40:33 PM
The Shutters were smashed apparently, well, not, in reality,at all
Yes! more dramatic... until some daft sod owned up to an unlocked door...oops! So the story opened up, eventually, and woke and wandered was on the table as a good thesis. Oh and the parents versions were, well challenged. And when they were challenged, that is when Gerry n Kate got on the case and started the whole" PR" moves. Damage limitation eh? 1. they created a window 'child snatcher' 2. they invented themselves as victims ( removing Maddie as a victim-claiming she had come to no harm) 3. declared they were good parents- and blameless in Maddies dissapearance 4. finger pointed other people to deflect attention from themselves 5. created monsters in PDL 6.fuelled hatred towards the PJ and others who were looking for their daughter
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 27, 2015, 08:47:42 PM
It's entirely possible to find a solution in which the window and shutter were genuinely found open. Given that, I believe the witness.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 27, 2015, 09:20:19 PM
Yes! more dramatic... until some daft sod owned up to an unlocked door...oops! So the story opened up, eventually, and woke and wandered was on the table as a good thesis. Oh and the parents versions were, well challenged. And when they were challenged, that is when Gerry n Kate got on the case and started the whole" PR" moves. Damage limitation eh? 1. they created a window 'child snatcher' 2. they invented themselves as victims ( removing Maddie as a victim-claiming she had come to no harm) 3. declared they were good parents- and blameless in Maddies dissapearance 4. finger pointed other people to deflect attention from themselves 5. created monsters in PDL 6.fuelled hatred towards the PJ and others who were looking for their daughter
What a load of twisted twaddle fuelled by something, such as :-
After all why was she searching the apartment, if the window was open ??? &%+((£
Put your tghinking cap on stephen
Have you never heard of HOPE
And BTW, We dont know with certainty just how wide the window was open We dont know if Kate KNEW that Madeleine was unable to open such a window and shutters We dont know if she knew that Madeleine would NOT have jumped such a height
We do know that Madeleine left her cuddle cat behind, the cuddle toy she carried everywhere .
Put your thinking cap on stephen
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on July 27, 2015, 10:09:06 PM
And BTW, We dont know with certainty just how wide the window was open We dont know if Kate KNEW that Madeleine was unable to open such a window and shutters We dont know if she knew that Madeleine would NOT have jumped such a height
We do know that Madeleine left her cuddle cat behind, the cuddle toy she carried everywhere .
Put your thinking cap on stephen
Actually sadie, there is no independent corroboration the window was open before 10 pm.
Time for your cap sadie.
Pointers included.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: ferryman on July 27, 2015, 10:15:52 PM
And BTW, We dont know with certainty just how wide the window was open We dont know if Kate KNEW that Madeleine was unable to open such a window and shutters We dont know if she knew that Madeleine would NOT have jumped such a height
We do know that Madeleine left her cuddle cat behind, the cuddle toy she carried everywhere .
Put your thinking cap on stephen
We also know that Madeleine's only pair of outdoor shoes on that holiday were found inside the apartment ...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on July 27, 2015, 10:49:33 PM
Oh superb wheeze that one ... open a window to 'prove' an abductor ... then quickly close it before anyone can see it open ... absolutely brilliant.
Good point Brietta. That would have been a superbly cunning wheeze to rival any of Baldrick's.
The fact is: If the window was fully closed but the lock button was not manually pressed in... ... then the window and shutter could be completely opened from outside in less than ten seconds.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2015, 01:02:46 AM
All 5 of her prints were on the inside surface of the glass pathfinder. Read the forensic document - it's in portuguese obviously. Notice the word "vidro". Look it up in a dictionary.
How do you open the window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 01:08:55 AM
From inside: By gently pushing the handle in your left direction.
So where is the window when it's fully open. Why would you be touching that side of the window? The curtains were trapped on that closed window side - the bed was up against the wall. How and why would they be open on that side? You would look out the open window side and this not in her statement. Her first thought was to check the twins and then the apartment and then leave the twins. Madeleine could have been in that car park or could have fallen onto the ground outside the window. Why are none of those checks in her statement?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 01:50:36 AM
So where is the window when it's fully open. Why would you be touching that side of the window? The curtains were trapped on that closed window side - the bed was up against the wall. How and why would they be open on that side? You would look out the open window side and this not in her statement. Her first thought was to check the twins and then the apartment and then leave the twins. Madeleine could have been in that car park or could have fallen onto the ground outside the window. Why are none of those checks in her statement?
When the window is at maximum (50%) open position, looking from inside, the right pane is slid left so it covers the left pane. Have you not watched the video demonstration in Amaral's film?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 28, 2015, 06:10:43 AM
So where is the window when it's fully open. Why would you be touching that side of the window? The curtains were trapped on that closed window side - the bed was up against the wall. How and why would they be open on that side? You would look out the open window side and this not in her statement. Her first thought was to check the twins and then the apartment and then leave the twins. Madeleine could have been in that car park or could have fallen onto the ground outside the window. Why are none of those checks in her statement?
Good question. The same can be said of Kate Mccann writing in her book she checked the car park and ran up and down the street looking. Somethng not in the files at all or ever mentioned in any interview for years, only in 2011 when the book Madeleine came out.
But in Mr Amaral's video, Truth of the Lie ,it shows Kate Mccann looking out of and touchng the window on finding it open. This was made in 2009 IIRC, before the book Madeleine was written (in which she first said that she did this).Either she told police this at the time and it didn't make it into the files or she never did and it was just portrayed like that.I tend to think if you did find a window open, you would probably go look out.
It doesn't help though that the police didn't test the outside of the window for prints, or if they did, didn't include this info in the files. If they had found prints on the outside it would lend more credence to an intruder via the window theory and is somethng I'm sure would have been mentioned, as all other prints found were. It is anyone's guess if they did and found nothng or if they lapsed here.
http://youtu.be/UxGhlYTNisw
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on July 28, 2015, 07:05:06 AM
We also know that Madeleine's only pair of outdoor shoes on that holiday were found inside the apartment ...
Just reading back. Madeleine has been photographed wearing sandals and trainers outdoors, so what you say is not correct. There's not alot to disprove a woke and wondered theory. In any case, toddlers on holiday have been known to step outside in bare feet.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on July 28, 2015, 07:55:21 AM
Oh superb wheeze that one ... open a window to 'prove' an abductor ... then quickly close it before anyone can see it open ... absolutely brilliant.
Indeed. As the open windows and shutters were apparently the 'jewel in the crown' of the McCanns cunning plan to provide proof of an abduction - then the one thing Gerry would do - would be to make sure no-one touched the 'proof' before the police arrived. But instead he destroyed his own cunning plan himself!
Once again IMO one has to first dispose of all common sense, logic and reason in order to believe that - as it is clearly nonsensical.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2015, 08:03:07 AM
When the window is at maximum (50%) open position, looking from inside, the right pane is slid left so it covers the left pane. Have you not watched the video demonstration in Amaral's film?
I know the window slides open from the right and covers the left but why open that curtain when it was trapped. You only need to slide open one curtain to go though the open window side or to look inside the room. Why open the other trapped curtain on the closed window side? Gerry said he closed the window (possibly destroying any intruder fingerprints on the handle!) not Kate and the fact is that looking through the open window is missing from her statement.
"At around 10pm, the interviewee went to check on the children. She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance."
So where is the window when it's fully open. Why would you be touching that side of the window? The curtains were trapped on that closed window side - the bed was up against the wall. How and why would they be open on that side? You would look out the open window side and this not in her statement. Her first thought was to check the twins and then the apartment and then leave the twins. Madeleine could have been in that car park or could have fallen onto the ground outside the window. Why are none of those checks in her statement?
Indeed Pathy! Now the thing is why have the shutters been jemmied and window open from the outside? The apartment which was being 'watched' by evil doers, AND tapas comings and goings! why not use the door. The one that was left unlocked..and why was it left unlocked? and why would these evil doers not just use the door? and why does none of this make any sense at all...why? because it never happend the way we are being programmed to believe! Window and jemmied shutters all a red herring.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 04:04:06 PM
Good question. The same can be said of Kate Mccann writing in her book she checked the car park and ran up and down the street looking. Somethng not in the files at all or ever mentioned in any interview for years, only in 2011 when the book Madeleine came out.
But in Mr Amaral's video, Truth of the Lie ,it shows Kate Mccann looking out of and touchng the window on finding it open. This was made in 2009 IIRC, before the book Madeleine was written (in which she first said that she did this).Either she told police this at the time and it didn't make it into the files or she never did and it was just portrayed like that.I tend to think if you did find a window open, you would probably go look out.
It doesn't help though that the police didn't test the outside of the window for prints, or if they did, didn't include this info in the files. If they had found prints on the outside it would lend more credence to an intruder via the window theory and is somethng I'm sure would have been mentioned, as all other prints found were. It is anyone's guess if they did and found nothng or if they lapsed here.
http://youtu.be/UxGhlYTNisw
She looked out the window before going to alert the others at Tapas. She ran in the car park after going to alert the others at Tapas.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 28, 2015, 04:26:28 PM
She looked out the window before going to alert the others at Tapas. She ran in the car park after going to alert the others at Tapas.
Was she the one who noticed MADDIE was missing- she opened the window and shutters to see if anyone was around?
AGAIN- KNOWING, as she claims on numerous occasions, SHE knew instantly that Maddie was abducted, why check a car park much later? what is the point in that exactly. the more people type to try and make this fit the more it looks ridiculous.
The whole get up is so silly no wonder the PJ were concerned.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 28, 2015, 05:59:12 PM
She looked out the window before going to alert the others at Tapas. She ran in the car park after going to alert the others at Tapas.
Not according to her statement. There's nothing about looking out the window and what she saw. You check the car park now and phone not run in the opposite direction.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 08:52:36 PM
"... sprinted back to our apartment ... I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately ..." KM's book p72
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 28, 2015, 09:07:22 PM
"... sprinted back to our apartment ... I ran out into the car park, flying from end to end, yelling desperately ..." KM's book p72
Jane tells it a little differently, she heard no yelling until after Fiona had finished her initial search and returned to the apartment;
JT ate quickly left the table and went back to the apartment. Russell Obrien returned to Tapas restaurant some time later. Looked from apartment window to Tapas restaurant and saw that no one from group were there. Was surprised by this, then hears Kate Healy and Fiona Payne in front of apartment calling out for Madeleine. When JT saw Kate Healy she said Madeleine had disappeared. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE-TANNER-10MAY.htm
She says the samein her rogatory;
the next thing I can remember is seeing Kate and Fiona, they came running from the direction of Kate’s flat, say sort of along the, sort of it’s, I’ll try and describe how it is, but as you come into the flats there’s sort of a passageway and there’s flats above so there’s a roof and there’s a passageway, it’s really badly described, but they came running along there and they were shouting ‘Madeleine’ http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/JANE_TANNER_RIGATORY.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on July 28, 2015, 09:22:33 PM
Not according to her statement. There's nothing about looking out the window and what she saw. You check the car park now and phone not run in the opposite direction.
shows the statement is wrong
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 28, 2015, 09:27:30 PM
"... I remember feeling frustrated when David said 'Let's just check the apartment'. I'd done that, and I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted ..." (KM's book p72)
The window/shutter has hypnotised and fooled many in this case into discarding elementary logical thinking: the very first witness K, the second witness G, Mr Amaral and his security expert, the Dispatches experts, possibly SY even now.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 28, 2015, 09:34:55 PM
"... I remember feeling frustrated when David said 'Let's just check the apartment'. I'd done that, and I knew, I knew, that Madeleine had been abducted ..." (KM's book p72)
The window/shutter has hypnotised and fooled many in this case into discarding elementary logical thinking: the very first witness K, the second witness G, Mr Amaral and his security expert, the Dispatches experts, possibly SY even now.
That window haven't fooled many with the fingerprints found and no glove marks.
"I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. We were very conscious of not touching things." (KM I'm sorry Madeleine, 05 August 2007 Sunday Mirror)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on July 28, 2015, 11:45:42 PM
That window haven't fooled many with the fingerprints found and no glove marks.
"I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. We were very conscious of not touching things." (KM I'm sorry Madeleine, 05 August 2007 Sunday Mirror)
More of the above....
Recalling the moment she found her daughter's bed empty, Kate says: "There was 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought, 'That can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit. I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was total fear.
"I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.
"But I knew she wouldn't walk out anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken."
Kate says she saw that Madeleine's toy Cuddle Cat had been left behind, but was careful not to touch it in case it held a clue to who took her.
She says: "I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. We were very conscious of not touching things."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on July 29, 2015, 07:44:30 AM
Recalling the moment she found her daughter's bed empty, Kate says: "There was 20 seconds of disbelief where I thought, 'That can't be right'. I was checking for her. Then there was panic and fear. That was the first thing that hit. I was screaming her name. I ran to the group. Everyone was the same. It was total fear.
"I never thought for one second that she'd walked out. I knew someone had been in the apartment because of the way it had been left.
"But I knew she wouldn't walk out anyway. There wasn't a shadow of a doubt in my mind she'd been taken."
Kate says she saw that Madeleine's toy Cuddle Cat had been left behind, but was careful not to touch it in case it held a clue to who took her.
She says: "I knew straight away a crime had been committed, we had no doubt about that. We were very conscious of not touching things."
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id16.html
Eddie found the clue. Again there is nothing about looking through an open window to check i.e. the window was open so I quickly looked out into the car park for any sign of Madeleine. Nada!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Eleanor on July 29, 2015, 10:10:54 PM
Please can we get back to The Topic. I don't actually enjoy deleting Posts.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 30, 2015, 01:49:28 AM
The 5 KM prints were all located on the "Lado interior do vidro da janela" "Interior surface of the glass of the window" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_884a.jpg
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2015, 09:11:28 AM
I have just been reading thru the last page or so and sorry .... what a hoot!
According to Amaral, NO marks on the sill, NO fibres on the frame
And a sill that is far too high for a man to stride thru. He would crush his "Crown Jewels" if he tried. The screams would have been heard in the tapas restaurant [perhaps I am exagerating a bit, but you get the gist]
No footprints, no fibres, NO MAN went through that narrow window frame
Ludicrous to even consider it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on July 30, 2015, 09:52:44 AM
I have just been reading thru the last page or so and sorry .... what a hoot!
According to Amaral, NO marks on the sill, NO fibres on the frame
And a sill that is far too high for a man to stride thru. He would crush his "Crown Jewels" if he tried. The screams would have been heard in the tapas restaurant [perhaps I am exagerating a bit, but you get the gist]
No footprints, no fibres, NO MAN went through that narrow window frame
Ludicrous to even consider it.
Yes! it made me laugh when Kate explained with her famous 'clucking' sound (wtf was that about?) it was a very small window... of opportunity hahahahaha did you get that pun Sadie?
The very idea that a grown man carrying a dead weight ( sleeping child) out through that window without leaving scuff marks-without hands, maybe the circus was in town that night, those with great strenght and balancing skills eh Sadie? well there were a few clowns who left their children sleeping alone...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2015, 10:10:11 AM
Yes! it made me laugh when Kate explained with her famous 'clucking' sound (wtf was that about?) it was a very small window... of opportunity hahahahaha did you get that pun Sadie?
The very idea that a grown man carrying a dead weight ( sleeping child) out through that window without leaving scuff marks-without hands, maybe the circus was in town that night, those with great strenght and balancing skills eh Sadie? well there were a few clowns who left their children sleeping alone...
IMO Nobody went thru that window, either in or out.
The front door was too inviting and too close. Also absolutely out of sight to anyone. Pitch black, recessed and no one passed by.
It all happened thru the front door .... almost without doubt
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on July 30, 2015, 12:55:17 PM
We don't know what happened yet, so we can't say which entrance or exit was involved or even if any were involved.
Happy to agree subject to NO MAN went thru that window, either way. However why struggle thru a window when the front door was just steps away and completely out of anyones sight. Anyhow Amaral said no marks and no fibres on the frame or sill
.... but Madeleine did not vanish down the plug hole, so one exit was certainly involved
This is getting to be a habit with me agreeing with you ... three times!!
Shall we get married? @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on July 30, 2015, 04:37:08 PM
I second that you should get married. Imagine the heated debate about the McCanns all day? 8(*(
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on July 30, 2015, 04:39:27 PM
Would this be the forum's first gay marriage?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on July 30, 2015, 05:11:43 PM
Agreed "nobody went thru that window, either in or out". The reason is the person was disturbed just before climbing in IMO
You could be right but I think not.
I think tht the sill was too high and the window too narrow for anyone to climb thru without leaving fibres or marks on the sills
See the sill height on the PeterMac video. PeterMac was a cop so he would be taller rather than shorter
http://youtu.be/IeuMzyaCnnY
The sill is at tummy height. Gawd the damage he would have done to his "Crown Jewels" had he tried to stride across the sill. Without striding or putting his feet on the sill, I cant see how anyone could enter without leaving traces .... and Amaral said there were none.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on July 31, 2015, 11:07:24 PM
@Sadie - Nobody climbed in - that is why there are no traces of anybody climbing in. IMO a child disturbed him/her just before he/she climbed in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2015, 08:43:47 PM
@Sadie - Nobody climbed in - that is why there are no traces of anybody climbing in. IMO a child disturbed him/her just before he/she climbed in.
There is still no real evidence/proof the window in 5a was open/not closed properly/unlocked for an intruder to open it from outside. I suppose if there was an intruder they could have opened it from inside, for whatever reason (though not, in my opinion, to get rid of the smell of chloroform!!, I mean, how stupid is that idea?) ..but for me, as regards the thread title/question goes, we do not know, so this discussion is null and void
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 01, 2015, 10:44:07 PM
There is still no real evidence/proof the window in 5a was open/not closed properly/unlocked for an intruder to open it from outside. I suppose if there was an intruder they could have opened it from inside, for whatever reason (though not, in my opinion, to get rid of the smell of chloroform!!, I mean, how stupid is that idea?) ..but for me, as regards the thread title/question goes, we do not know, so this discussion is null and void
The open window makes no sense except for a burglar trying to get in and that never happened but the child went missing. The apartment was unlocked so anybody could get in that way or the child get out. No evidence of the child getting out with the Moyes on the balcony above. Nobody heard anything and we know Madeleine was very loud according to Pamela Fenn on the Tuesday so if she went out into the dark then she would be heard! If the window was opened from the inside then it leads to staging. There was no evidence of anybody passing though it but there was evidence found on the window that connects to staging.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on August 01, 2015, 10:51:32 PM
The open window makes no sense except for a burglar trying to get in and that never happened but the child went missing. The apartment was unlocked so anybody could get in that way or the child get out. No evidence of the child getting out with the Moyes on the balcony above. Nobody heard anything and we know Madeleine was very loud according to Pamela Fenn on the Tuesday so if she went out into the dark then she would be heard! If the window was opened from the inside then it leads to staging. There was no evidence of anybody passing though it but there was evidence found on the window that connects to staging.
I agree there may have been "staging" of the scene ... particularly if the perpetrator wished to detract from the fact s\he had access to a key. Dr McCann closing the window and lowering the shutter nearly ruined that good idea.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 01, 2015, 10:57:12 PM
I agree there may have been "staging" of the scene ... particularly if the perpetrator wished to detract from the fact s\he had access to a key. Dr McCann closing the window and lowering the shutter nearly ruined that good idea.
No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on August 01, 2015, 11:00:26 PM
No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.
Both the Mccanns said they were conscious not to touch anything but they touched THE only evidence of an intruder before the police arrived, closing the window and lowering the shutter? ok
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on August 01, 2015, 11:16:14 PM
No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.
If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them? That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.
The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes). That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 01, 2015, 11:51:40 PM
If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them? That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.
The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes). That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.
Only the McCanns saw them open. The window was closed and the shutters were down when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm. She tried to raise them from the outside and they twisted and got stuck. This is how the police found them.
Only the McCanns saw them open. The window was closed and the shutters were down when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm. She tried to raise them from the outside and they twisted and got stuck. This is how the police found them.
There is still no real evidence/proof the window in 5a was open/not closed properly/unlocked for an intruder to open it from outside. I suppose if there was an intruder they could have opened it from inside, for whatever reason (though not, in my opinion, to get rid of the smell of chloroform!!, I mean, how stupid is that idea?) ..but for me, as regards the thread title/question goes, we do not know, so this discussion is null and void
Pegasus very cleverly proved that someone had had an attempt at opening the shutters.
Hand prints around the two outside stops that indicated it.
Have you forgotten that?
Seems that either Amarals crew failed to realise what the prints indicated .. or .. they chose to ignore them. They showed that Amarals theory was wrong.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 02:33:21 AM
No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.
"Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters ...." But not everyone was interviewed by police Pathfinder.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on August 02, 2015, 09:49:39 AM
Pegasus very cleverly proved that someone had had an attempt at opening the shutters.
Hand prints around the two outside stops that indicated it.
Have you forgotten that?
Seems that either Amarals crew failed to realise what the prints indicated .. or .. they chose to ignore them. They showed that Amarals theory was wrong.
The prints could have been Gerry Mccanns and Diane Websters who both handled the shutters from outside. No one ignored them. They were not complete so unidentifiable. If they were an abductors, why were none found on the outside of the window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on August 02, 2015, 10:05:40 AM
If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them? That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.
The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes). That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.
Why would the abductor open the bedroom window to detract from the fact that he had a key if he had been aware that the McCanns had left the patio door open to check ? If he was watching the group and waiting for his opportunity to pounce surely he would have been aware he had a ready made distraction without all the time and noise that raising the shutter would entail.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on August 02, 2015, 10:47:25 AM
Why would the abductor open the bedroom window to detract from the fact that he had a key if he had been aware that the McCanns had left the patio door open to check ? If he was watching the group and waiting for his opportunity to pounce surely he would have been aware he had a ready made distraction without all the time and noise that raising the shutter would entail.
There are other reasons why an intruder would open the window.
1. To make sure the car park was clear of people before he set out across it. He couldn't see that from the recessed door.
2. To have a method of a sharp exit, without coming face to face with anyone unexpectedly entering via the patio doors.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 02, 2015, 10:52:29 AM
If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them? That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.
The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes). That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.
Under which arm did this person have the child while he was dicking about with the windows in order to put the investigating officers of the scent?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 02, 2015, 11:05:18 AM
I guess it's unlikely in your view that they dicked about with the windows before picking up the child? Of course that would be completely illogical.
It did occur to me but I thought the way I expressed it delivered a better sense of the ridiculous. To please you however I will share the other thought that went through my mind. "Why run the risk of waking the child, with the associated risk of her screaming like a banshee, while dicking about with the window to throw the investigating officer off the scent"? Or just may be she was clonked on the head or otherwise incapacitated first?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on August 02, 2015, 12:43:36 PM
There are other reasons why an intruder would open the window.
1. To make sure the car park was clear of people before he set out across it. He couldn't see that from the recessed door.
2. To have a method of a sharp exit, without coming face to face with anyone unexpectedly entering via the patio doors.
1. How would they know the car park was clear WHILE opening the shutters ? Surely that would be as risky as setting across it ?
2. If, as seems to be believed, the McCanns and their friends checking routines were watched surely opening the window and risking one of the checkers noticing it was open would be far riskier than using the front door as a possible means of escape ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 01:48:09 PM
Why would the abductor open the bedroom window to detract from the fact that he had a key if he had been aware that the McCanns had left the patio door open to check ? If he was watching the group and waiting for his opportunity to pounce surely he would have been aware he had a ready made distraction without all the time and noise that raising the shutter would entail.
Noise when the abductor raised the shutter
Noise when The Mccanns (in your mind) raised the shutter.
What's the difference as far as noise is concerned?
Nobody that we know of heard the noise. Why?
Because it was an everyday sound that was happening all around. The mind didn't acknowledge the noise, it was too mundane.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on August 02, 2015, 02:22:19 PM
It did occur to me but I thought the way I expressed it delivered a better sense of the ridiculous. To please you however I will share the other thought that went through my mind. "Why run the risk of waking the child, with the associated risk of her screaming like a banshee, while dicking about with the window to throw the investigating officer off the scent"? Or just may be she was clonked on the head or otherwise incapacitated first?
Why risk breaking into a house and stealing a fully conscious child from her bath, a child that could also scream like a banshee? Why break into a dormitory full of sleeping children, rape and murder one of them, when at any moment one or more of the others could have woken up and screamed like a banshee? Perhaps the high risk factors involved are part of the thrill? Crazily illogical thought I realise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on August 02, 2015, 03:22:00 PM
Why risk breaking into a house and stealing a fully conscious child from her bath, a child that could also scream like a banshee? Why break into a dormitory full of sleeping children, rape and murder one of them, when at any moment one or more of the others could have woken up and screamed like a banshee? Perhaps the high risk factors involved are part of the thrill? Crazily illogical thought I realise.
Horrific and illogical to normal people. Just like murdering as many people as possible in a cinema for some kind of warped buzz.
There's also the weirdo German guy (now jailed), who seemed to be perfectly normal to people who knew him, but was found responsible for numerous crimes involving kids.
His name escapes me... but he often wore a mask.
ETA: Not sure who I'm thinking of. Martin Ney? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3298.0
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 02, 2015, 03:35:29 PM
Horrific and illogical to normal people. Just like murdering as many people as possible in a cinema for some kind of warped buzz.
There's also the weirdo German guy (now jailed), who seemed to be perfectly normal to people who knew him, but was found responsible for numerous crimes involving kids.
His name escapes me... but he often wore a mask.
ETA: Not sure who I'm thinking of. Martin Ney? http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3298.0
Then there is the case of Mark Bridger who stole a child virtually off her parents' doorstep in his own neighbourhood with a young witness in attendance, and who then murdered the child. How unlikely that anyone would engage in such high risk (of being caught) activity!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2015, 04:35:04 PM
You have as usual made a very valid point, Sadie.
Why would an abductor raising the shutter waken and alert everyone in Praia da Luz ... but no-one would be able to hear Madeleine McCann's parents allegedly performing the same action.
When Dr McCann was outside, trying to raise it after lowering it ... did anyone who happened to be passing remark on the event?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on August 02, 2015, 04:37:59 PM
Then there is the case of Mark Bridger who stole a child virtually off her parents' doorstep in his own neighbourhood with a young witness in attendance, and who then murdered the child. How unlikely that anyone would engage in such high risk (of being caught) activity!!
Just goes to show intelligent individuals do reckless things even knowing there is a high chance they will be found out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 02, 2015, 04:39:11 PM
He would certainly have known there was a good chance he would be caught.
Yes, that is my point, well done for underlining it. However your thinly disguised attempt to turn this around as evidence that the McCanns dunnit is somewhat undermined by the fact that Bridger's lifestyle choices and behaviour contrast rather sharply with those of the objects of your opprobrium:
Quote
The college drop-out had drifted through a series of jobs, including an unsuccessful stint with the London Fire Brigade. After moving to Wales following a row with his family in Surrey, he worked as a life guard, a slaughter house worker and in forestry – an occupation which gave him specialist knowledge of the tracks and hills surrounding the market town.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 02, 2015, 04:57:18 PM
Not only that, but people like Bridger DELIBERATELY set out to commit a heinous crime such as rape, abduction and murder despite the risks involved, something which only the most barmy conspiracy theorist would believe of the McCanns.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on August 02, 2015, 05:04:32 PM
Yes, that is my point, well done for underlining it. However your thinly disguised attempt to turn this around as evidence that the McCanns dunnit is somewhat undermined by the fact that Bridger's lifestyle choices and behaviour contrast rather sharply with those of the objects of your opprobrium:
Then let me introduce you to Ted Bundy Alfie.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Bundy
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 05:21:41 PM
Noise when the abductor raised the shutter Noise when The Mccanns (in your mind) raised the shutter. What's the difference as far as noise is concerned? Nobody that we know of heard the noise. Why? Because it was an everyday sound that was happening all around. The mind didn't acknowledge the noise, it was too mundane.
"Nobody that we know of heard the noise." But Sadie what about the important witness who was never interviewed by the police who was just a few metres away?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 05:26:13 PM
"Nobody that we know of heard the noise." But Sadie what about the important witness who was never interviewed by the police who was just a few metres away?
Who was that?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 05:33:38 PM
The most important witness of all Sadie. Who almost certainly IMO heard the shutter being raised all the way up. At about 3 metres with no intervening wall or glass it is rather likely isn't it?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 05:37:06 PM
The most important witness of all Sadie. Who almost certainly IMO heard the shutter being raised all the way up. At about 3 metres with no intervening wall or glass it is rather likely isn't it?
.... and who was that?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 02, 2015, 05:48:28 PM
The most important witness of all is the missing child. Who never was interviewed by police. Who at a distance of 3 metres with no intervening wall or glass is highly likely to have heard the shutter being fully raised.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 05:52:45 PM
The most important witness of all is the missing child. Who never was interviewed by police. Who at a distance of 3 metres with no intervening wall or glass is highly likely to have heard the shutter being fully raised.
Oh Pegasus, you make me laugh.
But you do some really good work. I like you. %#&%%5
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 05:59:55 PM
Why would an abductor raising the shutter waken and alert everyone in Praia da Luz ... but no-one would be able to hear Madeleine McCann's parents allegedly performing the same action.
When Dr McCann was outside, trying to raise it after lowering it ... did anyone who happened to be passing remark on the event?
You are quite correct that Madeleine was close by ... and the twins even closer
BUT you are jumping a great big hurdle by making huge assumptions that Madeleine heard the shutter being opened.
Yet the twins did not?
If you remember, it was Madeleine who was shattered that night. She was so tired that she had to be carried home and was in bed first it seems, with the twins, I think from ?Kates? description sitting on her bed to hear the story. Are you claiming that she who was furthest away and the most sleepy heard the intruder, but not the twins?
Of course they may all have been given a sleeping draught with their meal,. That we do not know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 02, 2015, 07:29:18 PM
Why risk breaking into a house and stealing a fully conscious child from her bath, a child that could also scream like a banshee? Why break into a dormitory full of sleeping children, rape and murder one of them, when at any moment one or more of the others could have woken up and screamed like a banshee? Perhaps the high risk factors involved are part of the thrill? Crazily illogical thought I realise.
Did these people run around laying false trails for the investigating officers after the event before leaving the building? Brietta's more or less thesis is that the "abductor" in the McCann case did just that. I think it highly improbable. More like in and out like Flynn.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on August 02, 2015, 08:31:38 PM
Did these people run around laying false trails for the investigating officers after the event before leaving the building? Brietta's more or less thesis is that the "abductor" in the McCann case did just that. I think it highly improbable. More like in and out like Flynn.
I agree - shock, horror!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 08:44:22 PM
Pegasus, my post was in response to Briettas post below You are quite correct that Madeleine was close by ... and the twins even closer BUT you are jumping a great big hurdle by making huge assumptions that Madeleine heard the shutter being opened. Yet the twins did not? If you remember, it was Madeleine who was shattered that night. She was so tired that she had to be carried home and was in bed first it seems, with the twins, I think from ?Kates? description sitting on her bed to hear the story. Are you claiming that she who was furthest away and the most sleepy heard the intruder, but not the twins? Of course they may all have been given a sleeping draught with their meal,. That we do not know.
The clue here is that certainly someone opened the bedroom door. It cannot have been either of the younger children. Therefore it must have been the older child who opened it. So the older child definitely awoke at some point in time. All IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 08:50:23 PM
The clue here is that certainly someone opened the bedroom door. It cannot have been either of the younger children. Therefore it must have been the older child who opened it. So the older child definitely awoke at some point in time. All IMO.
I beg to differ. I think it was either the intruder that opened it, or the draughts through the open window. It was a gusty evening with gusts up to 20mph IIRC.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on August 02, 2015, 08:55:45 PM
Did these people run around laying false trails for the investigating officers after the event before leaving the building? Brietta's more or less thesis is that the "abductor" in the McCann case did just that. I think it highly improbable. More like in and out like Flynn.
I have suggested one possible reason among many for an intruder to open the window and raise the shutter. It would have taken seconds. Madeleine's abduction would have taken a couple of minutes at the most ... so indeed "in and out like Flynn".
Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?
Perhaps the window and shutters did the job of deflecting attention away from who might have been able to enter the apartment via the front door; there were after all more important "staging" theories being formulated at the time.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on August 02, 2015, 09:02:12 PM
I have suggested one possible reason among many for an intruder to open the window and raise the shutter. It would have taken seconds. Madeleine's abduction would have taken a couple of minutes at the most ... so indeed "in and out like Flynn".
Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?
Perhaps the window and shutters did the job of deflecting attention away from who might have been able to enter the apartment via the front door; there were after all more important "staging" theories being formulated at the time.
Full of conspiracy theories aren't we? Here, borrow this 7kg sledge hammer I am sure it will help you make the pieces fit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 02, 2015, 09:03:25 PM
The clue here is that certainly someone opened the bedroom door. It cannot have been either of the younger children. Therefore it must have been the older child who opened it. So the older child definitely awoke at some point in time. All IMO.
It doesn't mean a thing after Matt put a spanner in the works. Doors don't keep moving to the same position 8)--))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 02, 2015, 09:18:29 PM
Pegasus, my post was in response to Briettas post below
You are quite correct that Madeleine was close by ... and the twins even closer
BUT you are jumping a great big hurdle by making huge assumptions that Madeleine heard the shutter being opened.
Yet the twins did not?
If you remember, it was Madeleine who was shattered that night. She was so tired that she had to be carried home and was in bed first it seems, with the twins, I think from ?Kates? description sitting on her bed to hear the story. Are you claiming that she who was furthest away and the most sleepy heard the intruder, but not the twins?
Of course they may all have been given a sleeping draught with their meal,. That we do not know.
She must have been sick and tired that her parents weren't at the beach watching her sailing for the first time but Cat comforted her when she was scared and crying. According to the mother she said it was her best day ever! The unusual behaviour of the mother going to the pool and cleaning instead of watching her daughter or bringing her later to the beach with the others (I'll go for a run and do what I want instead!) opens a can of worms if death is proved.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 02, 2015, 10:36:42 PM
I beg to differ. I think it was either the intruder that opened it, or the draughts through the open window. It was a gusty evening with gusts up to 20mph IIRC.
The wind direction we know was such that the almost closed bedroom door would be slammed completely closed when someone opened the window and shutter.
Actually this is very likely to have happened. The noise of the shutter being raised, plus at the same time the sudden abrupt bang of the bedroom door slamming, wake the child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 11:06:04 PM
She must have been sick and tired that her parents weren't at the beach watching her sailing for the first time but Cat comforted her when she was scared and crying. According to the mother she said it was her best day ever! The unusual behaviour of the mother going to the pool and cleaning instead of watching her daughter or bringing her later to the beach with the others (I'll go for a run and do what I want instead!) opens a can of worms if death is proved.
Jeez Pfinder, were my parents there when I swam my first mile Were they there when ran my first rounder Were they there when I managed the long fly in the gym
No.
Did I expect it or need it?
No
But They were there to support me when I was in hospital rather a lot as a youngster. They were there when I started school They were there when I competed in Sports Day at school
Ones parents cannot be everywhere holding their childs hand. In fact it isn't healthy that they are.
Had Kate been there, Madeleine would have missed the thrill of sailing because initially she played up a bit . Had Kate been there I doubt Madeleine would have sailed. She would have missed what she described as the best day of her life ever.
I wonder how many of the other parents were watching?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on August 02, 2015, 11:07:58 PM
I have suggested one possible reason among many for an intruder to open the window and raise the shutter. It would have taken seconds. Madeleine's abduction would have taken a couple of minutes at the most ... so indeed "in and out like Flynn".
Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?
Perhaps the window and shutters did the job of deflecting attention away from who might have been able to enter the apartment via the front door; there were after all more important "staging" theories being formulated at the time.
The patio doors were open so no deflection needed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 02, 2015, 11:21:17 PM
Jeez Pfinder, were my parents there when I swam my first mile Were they there when ran my first rounder Were they there when I managed the long fly in the gym
No.
Did I expect it or need it?
No
But They were there to support me when I was in hospital rather a lot as a youngster. They were there when I started school They were there when I competed in Sports Day at school
Ones parents cannot be everywhere holding their childs hand. In fact it isn't healthy that they are.
Had Kate been there, Madeleine would have missed the thrill of sailing because initially she played up a bit . Had Kate been there I doubt Madeleine would have sailed. She would have missed what she described as the best day of her life ever.
I wonder how many of the other parents were watching?
Dave, Fiona, Matt, Russell and Jane went to the beach that morning.
Erm, you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach. I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us. Erm, we, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he didn’t because of looking after Evie, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”. 4078 “Because it was paid?” Reply “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point. And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”. (JT)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on August 02, 2015, 11:37:50 PM
Dave, Fiona, Matt, Russell and Jane went to the beach that morning.
Erm, you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach. I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us. Erm, we, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he didn’t because of looking after Evie, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”. 4078 “Because it was paid?” Reply “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’. So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point. And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”. (JT)
It is quite obvious from your post that none of them went specifically "to watch the children sailing".
Dave and Fi saw a bit of it, because it so happened that Dave had his second pre-arranged sailing lesson. No other reason. They didn't bother to stay to watch the kids sailing.
Russell couldn't take his pre arranged sailing lesson because he was needed to look after poorly Evie. Jane had her prearranged tennis lesson then they went down to the beach with Russell. Russell was compensated somewhat for losing his sailing lesson by hiring a kayak.
None of them went specifically in order to watch the children sailing. Please dont make things up Pfinder
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 03, 2015, 12:28:48 AM
It is quite obvious from your post that none of them went specifically "to watch the children sailing".
Dave and Fi saw a bit of it, because it so happened that Dave had his second pre-arranged sailing lesson. No other reason. They didn't bother to stay to watch the kids sailing.
Russell couldn't take his pre arranged sailing lesson because he was needed to look after poorly Evie. Jane had her prearranged tennis lesson then they went down to the beach with Russell. Russell was compensated somewhat for losing his sailing lesson by hiring a kayak.
None of them went specifically in order to watch the children sailing. Please dont make things up Pfinder
The fact is they were there so could watch them and they took their kids to the beach later all except the McCanns.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 12:36:16 AM
It doesn't mean a thing after Matt put a spanner in the works. Doors don't keep moving to the same position 8)--))
Here in Ockham we have a rule of thumb: If a door was left closed, and later it is found open, it's probably because someone has opened it to walk through the doorway
And here's another: If a room contained 3 people. then later it contains only 2 people, probably 1 person has walked through the doorway to another room.
A professor at Ockham University has even proposed there may be a link betwen the two rules - a possible correlation between the number of people in a room decreasing, and a widening of the door position due to one person walking to another room.
And wouldn't you if someone opened your bedroom window at night?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on August 03, 2015, 01:03:59 AM
Here in Ockham we have a rule of thumb: If a door was left closed, and later it is found open, it's probably because someone has opened it to walk through the doorway
And here's another: If a room contained 3 people. then later it contains only 2 people, probably 1 person has walked through the doorway to another room.
A professor at Ockham University has even proposed there may be a link betwen the two rules - a possible correlation between the number of people in a room decreasing, and a widening of the door position due to one person walking to another room.
And wouldn't you if someone opened your bedroom window at night?
That means one person walked into the room before Gerry's check and another person walked into the same room before Matt checked. Or the simple explanation is the door never moved and that's why it was seen in the same position by two people.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on August 03, 2015, 01:44:31 AM
That means one person walked into the room before Gerry's check and another person walked into the same room before Matt checked. Or the simple explanation is the door never moved and that's why it was seen in the same position by two people.
At least we agree on this, pathfinder? The door position at 22.00 was the same as the door position at 21.30.
What would you do if in middle of the night you awoke to someone opening from outside your bedroom window? (a) Stay in bed and relax? (b) Open your bedroom door and run to another room?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: ShiningInLuz on August 03, 2015, 03:58:44 AM
Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?
...
The number of employees with access to keys is problematic because there were so many. Whilst other complexes in Luz used electronic cards (changeable) the OC used physical keys (non-changeable).
So who had access? OC reception staff and management. Cleaners, who got to hang on to the keys for the whole day. Maintenance staff (tougher this one as they seemed to work in pairs). And Mark Warner staff (so they could set up cots in advance of arrival).
Whether it happened this way or not, there are many aspects of security at the OC which are open to question.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 01:21:43 AM
The burglar at 5G in april2007 IMO entered through the only burglar-accessible window - the window on the open first floor walk way just before 5G front door - (and we know he exited through the same window).
Here is some more evidence for that. 4G is almost identical to 5G. The identical window at 4G in 2007 has an added steel security barrier so that it is impossible to get in through the window. The only possible reason for this is IMO that there had once been a burglary through this 4G window and the steel security barrier was added to prevent it happening again. This means that entry through the same window at 5G, where there was no added steel security barrier, was very possible, and probable. Proof http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=46m37s
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 05, 2015, 02:01:07 AM
Another clue that opening 5A child bedroom shutter and window from outside was possible - it now has steel security bars added.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 06, 2015, 10:30:25 PM
Also the gate changed to full height, and garden changed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 06, 2015, 11:20:20 PM
The burglar at 5G in april2007 IMO entered through the only burglar-accessible window - the window on the open first floor walk way just before 5G front door - (and we know he exited through the same window).
Here is some more evidence for that. 4G is almost identical to 5G. The identical window at 4G in 2007 has an added steel security barrier so that it is impossible to get in through the window. The only possible reason for this is IMO that there had once been a burglary through this 4G window and the steel security barrier was added to prevent it happening again. This means that entry through the same window at 5G, where there was no added steel security barrier, was very possible, and probable. Proof http://youtu.be/c4NMYPsFKb8?t=46m37s
Do you think the shutter in 5G was in its lowered position prior to the attempted burglary? Do you believe all easily accessible windows in Blocks 4 & 5 had lowered shutters on the night of the 3rd?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 06, 2015, 11:48:13 PM
Good question, time to check what time of day the April 2007 attempted burglary of 5G (Fenn) was.
I remember reading somewhere (sorry no link) that most burglaries happened during the day when tourists were out rather than at night...opportunistic burglars will not have differentiated between a tourist Mark Warner apartment and a privately owned and resided one in IMO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 07, 2015, 12:23:40 AM
I remember reading somewhere (sorry no link) that most burglaries happened during the day when tourists were out rather than at night...opportunistic burglars will not have differentiated between a tourist Mark Warner apartment and a privately owned and resided one in IMO
Do you think an opportunistic burglar would have selected an apartment in a block where people were in & out of the car park every 10 minutes?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 01:01:34 AM
Any night time opportunist by definition wouldn't have watched before attempting...and yes strangely I agree with you, no burglar or abductor would strike if people were walking around every ten minutes
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 01:05:02 PM
Any night time opportunist by definition wouldn't have watched before attempting...and yes strangely I agree with you, no burglar or abductor would strike if people were walking around every ten minutes
It wasn't an opportunist abduction, was it?
Seems Madeleine was targetted, the family watched beforehand .... and then the whole abduction planned in minute detail, with watchers during the event. Most probably it was planned that the abductor/s went in immediately after Madeleine was checked .... and quite probably the visits by the other parents were logged and assessed too.
To find the safest time.
There may have been two attempts, with initially a scenario such as I outline below: 1. I wonder if Matt listening at the window was taken as a check and at that point an attempt was started. Maybe someone had gone in before Gerry arrived soon after Matt, maybe s/he was actually in when Gerry arrived, maybe s/he had quickly departed via the front door as the watcher reported him coming?
We dont know, do we?
But what is very likely IMO 2. is that when Gerry left, the abductor was already on site ready .... and when the watcher signalled to go in .... a very sharp entrance was made via the front door, then the window was opened for various reasons including escape in an emergency .... Madeleine was sedated, then scooped up and away via the front door agian.
I believe that the lifter, someone who Madeleine knew, passed her over the pathway wall to Tannerman.
The door was opened and closed using the key alone quite probably.
All IMO, but totally plausible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2015, 01:53:42 PM
Seems Madeleine was targetted, the family watched beforehand .... and then the whole abduction planned in minute detail, with watchers during the event. Most probably it was planned that the abductor/s went in immediately after Madeleine was checked .... and quite probably the visits by the other parents were logged and assessed too.
To find the safest time.
There may have been two attempts, with initially a scenario such as I outline below: 1. I wonder if Matt listening at the window was taken as a check and at that point an attempt was started. Maybe someone had gone in before Gerry arrived soon after Matt, maybe s/he was actually in when Gerry arrived, maybe s/he had quickly departed via the front door as the watcher reported him coming?
We dont know, do we?
But what is very likely IMO 2. is that when Gerry left, the abductor was already on site ready .... and when the watcher signalled to go in .... a very sharp entrance was made via the front door, then the window was opened for various reasons including escape in an emergency .... Madeleine was sedated, then scooped up and away via the front door agian.
I believe that the lifter, someone who Madeleine knew, passed her over the pathway wall to Tannerman.
The door was opened and closed using the key alone quite probably.
All IMO, but totally plausible.
I think that's a very credible theory Sadie. Once they knew that everyone was seated at the restaurant and thus safely out of the way - they may have calculated that Matt's 'outside' check meant that no more checks would be happening for a while at 5a. What they didn't know is that Gerry would decide to make his check at 9.05. If it happened how you suggest then that could explain the door being more open than Gerry remembered leaving it.
I've also wondered whether the empty apartment next door but one may have been used to hide in prior to the abduction. It would be an ideal place as it was only a few seconds walk away from 5A - and with a view of the tapas restaurant.
I don't know how thoroughly that empty apartment was searched or if it was examined by the forensic bods.
I do tend to think that once she was abducted - Madeleine was immediately taken away by car. Whether it was to a destination miles away or somewhere else in PdL - I don't know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 02:15:03 PM
There wasn't any time as Gerry left as soon as Matt returned (great watchers LOL) and there was no open window at 9:30. What key? What car? Only one we know had a key and then he didn't 8(>(( You can't make up evidence to suit your theory.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 02:39:49 PM
I think that's a very credible theory Sadie. Once they knew that everyone was seated at the restaurant and thus safely out of the way - they may have calculated that Matt's 'outside' check meant that no more checks would be happening for a while at 5a. What they didn't know is that Gerry would decide to make his check at 9.05. If it happened how you suggest then that could explain the door being more open than Gerry remembered leaving it.
I've also wondered whether the empty apartment next door but one may have been used to hide in prior to the abduction. It would be an ideal place as it was only a few seconds walk away from 5A - and with a view of the tapas restaurant.
I don't know how thoroughly that empty apartment was searched or if it was examined by the forensic bods.
I do tend to think that once she was abducted - Madeleine was immediately taken away by car. Whether it was to a destination miles away or somewhere else in PdL - I don't know.
Yep that is quite possible as well altho it might be more difficult to watch the front and the back from there. In support of your theory is the fact that two men, strangers, were seen on the balcony there, were they not?
Personally, I feel pretty sure tha Madeleine was taken up to Porto .... so many sightings that we were not made aware of, seem to indicate that, including later the Carlos Moreira sighting at the roadside snack bar half way up to Porto. The sightings fit the bill exactly timewise and Geographically. I have motored it and I know that they are perfectly good.
I think the first leg of the journey, however, started probably in a little boat off the small rocky beach in PdL
This joined up with a larger boat and with Madeleine safely away from search areas around PdL it sailed up to Sines arriving in time for a dawn hand over to the white van which then took Madeleine up to Porto.
This was the white van which Carlos Moreira saw with a little ?sleeping blonde girl in pyjamas like Madeleines, lying on rags in the back .... and the driver trying to hide her from view .... too late ! This was on the N10, the old pre-motorway main route up to Porto.
This also takes Madeleine up to the close area of the first missing child abduction of Jorge Sepulveda in 1991 [Just two miles away from where the taxi in Processos 809 dropped Madeleine!] ....
After Jorge Sepulveda there was another child abduction roughly every two years. Eight abductions in all, culminating in the abduction of Madeleine in 2007.
The man I suspect has close ties to both the Porto region and the PdL Algarve region.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2015, 02:52:49 PM
There wasn't any time as Gerry left as soon as Matt returned (great watchers LOL) and there was no open window at 9:30. What key? What car? Only one we know had a key and then he didn't 8(>(( You can't make up evidence to suit your theory.
It's a THEORY Pf. Your own theory is full of 'suggested' unproved scenarios IIRC.
The theory is that the perpetrator left ASAP when he was warned that Gerry was on his way back - and he then returned as soon as Gerry left and then opened the window and abducted Madeleine.
At 9.30 Matt was listening rather than looking and didn't go into the room. He was only there for seconds and if it wasn't breezy at that moment he could have missed an open window. He had no reason to take any particular notice anyway.
It's not impossible that the abductor had acquired keys. Hence the open window left to throw the police off the scent.
A while ago there was a video by someone holding the camcorder in front of him and running from 5A and along the road (the one Tannerman was heading down IIRC) to a car parked down there - and then speeding off out of PdL. It was all accomplished in about 4 mins, by which time he was on the outskirts of PdL. ( From memory - but I do remember how quickly the whole operation took).
Sorry I have no idea what happened to that video.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 02:56:48 PM
It's a THEORY Pf. Your own theory is full of 'suggested' unproved scenarios IIRC.
The theory is that the perpetrator left ASAP when he was warned that Gerry was on his way back - and he then returned as soon as Gerry left and then opened the window and abducted Madeleine.
At 9.30 Matt was listening rather than looking and didn't go into the room. He was only there for seconds and if it wasn't breezy at that moment he could have missed an open window. He had no reason to take any particular notice anyway.
It's not impossible that the abductor had acquired keys. Hence the open window left to throw the police off the scent.
A while ago there was a video by someone holding the camcorder in front of him and running from 5A and along the road (the one Tannerman was heading down IIRC) to a car parked down there - and then speeding off out of PdL. It was all accomplished in about 4 mins, by which time he was on the outskirts of PdL. ( From memory - but I do remember how quickly the whole operation took).
Sorry I have no idea what happened to that video.
My theory connects with evidence - timeline, witness statements, moving doors, open window, long checks, alerts. Yours is made up. What getaway car? Smithman was on foot with the lookalike and he is prime suspect. You follow evidence not getaway cars that don't exist. Who is the witness that saw or heard this getaway car screeching away? There were witnesses out on their balconies at this time but nobody heard nothing!
It wasn't breezy at that moment @)(++(* Matt is the witness not you - no draught and all was silent. He looked into the room and could see both cots because the door was open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 07, 2015, 03:08:36 PM
My theory connects with evidence - moving doors, open window, long checks, alerts. Yours is made up. What getaway car? Smithman was on foot with the lookalike and he is prime suspect. You follow evidence not getaway cars that don't exist.
IIRC your theory involved Gerry returning to 5A when all manner of people were milling around - and calmly changing his clothes - with no-one noticing. Also that he devised a plan which involved Kate raising the alarm after he had left to dispose of the body - even though he did not have the slightest idea how long it would take the police to arrive. It could have been 5 mins for all he knew.
The other theory does not rule out Smithman as the perpetrator - who may have just got out of a car. Who knows.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 03:13:54 PM
IIRC your theory involved Gerry returning to 5A when all manner of people were milling around - and calmly changing his clothes - with no-one noticing. Also that he devised a plan which involved Kate raising the alarm after he had left to dispose of the body - even though he did not have the slightest idea how long it would take the police to arrive. It could have been 5 mins for all he knew.
The other theory does not rule out Smithman as the perpetrator - who may have just got out of a car. Who knows.
Moyes and Balu/Berry were out on their balconies. They didn't hear any cars screeching away or hear a child shouting for help. Fenn heard nothing above. You follow evidence and no evidence exists of Madeleine being heard that night so maybe she was dead and couldn't make a sound.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 05:49:17 PM
Moyes and Balu/Berry were out on their balconies. They didn't hear any cars screeching away or hear a child shouting for help. Fenn heard nothing above. You follow evidence and no evidence exists of Madeleine being heard that night so maybe she was dead and couldn't make a sound.
Do all getaway cars screech? Do all sedated children shout for help?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 07, 2015, 06:11:06 PM
Was there a getaway car? Was Madeleine sedated? So many questions and so few answers.................
It was a hypothesis, and as such one can hypothesise that the car did not screech and the child did not shout, both perfectly plausible suggestions, don't you agree?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 06:17:37 PM
Do all getaway cars screech? Do all sedated children shout for help?
Make your case. What car? What was used to sedate and at what time?
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative.
Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.
Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.
Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.
She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.
And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.
The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams.
When the media informed that blood had been detected 'in the car and in the apartment', Kate and members of her family come to the public with the simple excuse that it had been someone, with access to the apartment, to place the evidence.
Now they even admit it was a member of the criminal investigation to place the 'false' evidence (blood and cadaver odour in the apartment and in the car).
Kate in an attempt to justify the blood went even further, informing that on that occasion, Madeleine had, sometimes, nasal haemorrhages.
On the day that a house search was performed, in the residence of the McCann, on the master bedroom, written papers were found as well as a bible, written in English. It was opened on the pages whose copies are annexed here, with the translation.
KIDNAPPING is a situation with which, unfortunately, in the United Kingdom, most of the public opinion is used to, due to the rate of this kind of crime.
Intelligent people should have a minimum of knowledge that the publicity is harming to the investigation of a kidnapping crime and especially to the safety of the kidnapped person.
They should have waited for the decisions from the police authorities, there is strong evidence that the crime scene was altered, some furniture was moved around.
Make your case. What car? What was used to sedate and at what time?
The area of the pillow of the bed from the minor disappeared was inspected with the intention to detect the presence of some smell [aroma] characteristic of volatile substances typical of chloroform or ether, this search proving negative.
Let's see: the media forwarded the hypothesis that the children could have been sedated to be kept asleep and allow some rest to the parents.
Distant in time Kate's father, the grandfather of the minor, Brian Healy, admits to the press that Kate could have administered some medication to the little girl, Calpol, to help the child (children'') to sleep, contrary to what his daughter Kate had stated.
Kate, through the PJ inspector that acted as 'liaison' with the family [NOTE: that is Ricardo Paiva], asked why samples weren't taken from the twins in order to test that hypothesis. She knew well enough at that time, more than 3 months later, that such exam would be inviable.
She went further and said that we ' the investigation ' should verify that the kidnapper had sedated Madeleine, to accomplish the action and he had also sedated the twins 'to consummate the act' however she didn't say that at the right moment.
And we know that the sedatives have timings to act and timings to be expelled, that varies between six and 200 hours.
The medical knowledge of the McCann is enough to know such, even if their professional activity never passed by performing toxicology exams.
When the media informed that blood had been detected 'in the car and in the apartment', Kate and members of her family come to the public with the simple excuse that it had been someone, with access to the apartment, to place the evidence.
Now they even admit it was a member of the criminal investigation to place the 'false' evidence (blood and cadaver odour in the apartment and in the car).
Kate in an attempt to justify the blood went even further, informing that on that occasion, Madeleine had, sometimes, nasal haemorrhages.
On the day that a house search was performed, in the residence of the McCann, on the master bedroom, written papers were found as well as a bible, written in English. It was opened on the pages whose copies are annexed here, with the translation.
KIDNAPPING is a situation with which, unfortunately, in the United Kingdom, most of the public opinion is used to, due to the rate of this kind of crime.
Intelligent people should have a minimum of knowledge that the publicity is harming to the investigation of a kidnapping crime and especially to the safety of the kidnapped person.
They should have waited for the decisions from the police authorities, there is strong evidence that the crime scene was altered, some furniture was moved around.
What car? I have no idea - it was a hypothesis. There were cars in PdL in 2007 I assume? Is it not possible that a kidnapper may have had access to a car and drove it away? If not why not? What sedative? I've no idea. Is it possible to sedate or to render a child unconscious that you are kidnapping, in theory? If not, why not?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 06:24:23 PM
What car? I have no idea - it was a hypothesis. There were cars in PdL in 2007 I assume? Is it not possible that a kidnapper may have had access to a car and drove it away? If not why not? What sedative? I've no idea. Is it possible to sedate or to render a child unconscious that you are kidnapping, in theory? If not, why not?
In other words you have no case. You need a car for a start. I've got my man and he was on foot heading towards the sea.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 06:29:56 PM
My theory connects with evidence - timeline, witness statements, moving doors, open window, long checks, alerts. Yours is made up. What getaway car? Smithman was on foot with the lookalike and he is prime suspect. You follow evidence not getaway cars that don't exist. Who is the witness that saw or heard this getaway car screeching away? There were witnesses out on their balconies at this time but nobody heard nothing!
It wasn't breezy at that moment @)(++(* Matt is the witness not you - no draught and all was silent. He looked into the room and could see both cots because the door was open.
Storms build up ... and there is often a lull before a storm. It could have been quite calm at the time of Matts visit at about 9.30 pm yet very gusty by 10pm when Kate checked.
Gusts are unpredictable; they dont always even come from the same direction.
None of us KNOW what happened. You dont and neither do I for sure.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 06:31:06 PM
In other words you have no case. You need a car for a start. I've got my man and he was on foot heading towards the sea.
I don't think you quite understand. It is a hypothesis, or a theory if you prefer. It's what the police do when faced with an absence of hard facts, to help them try to focus on a line of enquiry. It's what Amaral did when he started to build a case against the McCanns. He hypothesised that Madeleine died in an accident and her parents covered it up. He started to do this well before the dogs or Smithman. Do you understand now?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 06:32:41 PM
For Pathfinder - hope this helps:
hypothesis
/hʌɪˈpɒθɪsɪs/
noun
noun: hypothesis; plural noun: hypotheses
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 06:35:33 PM
Storms build up ... and there is often a lull before a storm. It could have been quite calm at the time of Matts visit at about 9.30 pm yet very gusty by 10pm when Kate checked.
Gusts are unpredictable; they dont always even come from the same direction.
None of us KNOW what happened. You dont and neither do I for sure.
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything''
Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'.
a supposition or proposed explanation made on the basis of limited evidence as a starting point for further investigation.
A getaway car is based on no evidence in this case. A still 8 years later unidentified man on foot with the lookalike child who was not moving is based on actual evidence.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 06:44:32 PM
A getaway car is based on no evidence in this case. A still 8 years later unidentified man on foot with the lookalike child who was not moving is based on actual evidence.
And yet there is no hard evidence that this man is in any way connected to the abduction but you are convinced of both his identity and that of the child. Sadie's hypothesis is equally as valid as yours.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 06:47:04 PM
And yet there is no hard evidence that this man is in any way connected to the abduction but you are convinced of both his identity and that of the child. Sadie's hypothesis is equally as valid as yours.
Abduction ?.
Tut, tut Alfred. 8**8:/:
Should the mods give points every time that is mentioned as a fact ? ?>)()<
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 06:47:27 PM
It doesn't really matter who the man was, he was seen by several witnesses and, as yet, has not been eliminated from inquiries.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 06:48:18 PM
It doesn't really matter who the man was, he was seen by several witnesses and, as yet, has not been eliminated from inquiries.
What an odd thing to say. It might matter a lot who the man is, on the other hand it might not - either way establishing who he is could be very helpful!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 07, 2015, 06:50:13 PM
In other words you have no case. You need a car for a start. I've got my man and he was on foot heading towards the sea.
LOL - I'm talking about a car PF - not a spaceship. Strange as it may seem to you - they do have cars in Portugal.
IMO It's perfectly possible that a car was parked out of sight in a nearby road or carpark. It's only when something is impossible - like Gerry knowing in advance what time the police were going to arrive - that it should be ruled out IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 07, 2015, 06:54:50 PM
What an odd thing to say. It might matter a lot who the man is, on the other hand it might not - either way establishing who he is could be very helpful!
What is strange? Tannerman was eliminated by SY without his identity being revealed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 06:55:08 PM
My theory connects with evidence - timeline, witness statements, moving doors, open window, long checks, alerts. Yours is made up.
And so does mine, but I read the evidence in a very different way to you.
Your theories are totally made up and you dont even bother to state that they are IN YOUR OPINION.
My theories have logic behind them as well as the other things that you mention .... but unlike you with YOUR theory, I know that mine could be incorrect. It is far more likely than yours tho. IMO
What getaway car? Smithman was on foot with the lookalike and he is prime suspect. You follow evidence not getaway cars that don't exist. Who is the witness that saw or heard this getaway car screeching away? There were witnesses out on their balconies at this time but nobody heard nothing!
You obviously have been so absorbed by your OWN theory that you haven't bothered to even read mine, until just .... and it has been posted in quite a lot of detail several times before.
I believe that there was a get-away car parked in the parking area opposite the Tapas Reception. That it was unable to pick up Tannerman and Madeleine as scheduled because unexpectedly Gerry and Jez were in the way chatting
AND, even more pertinently: .... Jane Tanner acrtually witnessed the abductor carrying Madeleine.. I believe that the driver of the getaway car scarpered, driving south and leaving Tannerman in the lurch, carrying Madeleine.
It wasn't breezy at that moment @)(++(* Matt is the witness not you - no draught and all was silent. He looked into the room and could see both cots because the door was open.
How do YOU KNOW what opened the door? I think that it was the abductor, but you prefer otherwise.
Obviously if the window was open when Matt visually checked, then the weather must have been calm, because the curtains did not flutter.
The calm before the storm?
YOU dont know and I dont know. That is the truth of the matter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 07, 2015, 06:57:42 PM
What is strange? Tannerman was eliminated by SY without his identity being revealed.
I misunderstood you, I didn't realise you meant it doesn't matter to US who he is, my apologies.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 06:58:58 PM
There would be a draught if the window was open. You think a window was open when Matt was there with no evidence and his fingerprints weren't found on it. Your theory has no evidence. You think Tannerman did it and SY disagree with you and agree it is my man - the prime suspect.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 07:05:42 PM
There would be a draught if the window was open. You think a window was open when Matt was there. What about your watchers? They don't exist is your answer.
Not necessarily if it was the lull before the storm.
And whilst I think the abduction took place immediately after Gerry left, it could have happened after Matt left.
We just do not know, neither YOU nor I nor ANYONE but the abductor
.... BUT based on the fact that Matt thought that it might have been a bit light, wqith some coming through the window / shutters/ curtains in the bedroom, that tends to point to an abduction before Matt checked.
Everything ties in very nicely with Gerrys check and Jane Tanners sighting then.
But nothing is cast in stones PFinder.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 07:07:00 PM
Not necessarily if it was the lull before the storm.
And whilst I think the abduction took place immediately after Gerry left, it could have happened after Matt left.
We just do not know, neither YOU nor I nor ANYONE but the abductor
.... BUT based on the fact that Matt thought that it might have been a bit light, wqith some coming through the window / shutters/ curtains in the bedroom, that tends to point to an abduction before Matt checked.
Everything ties in very nicely with Gerrys check and Jane Tanners sighting then.
But nothing is cast in stones PFinder.
That's because slats were open. That is from witness evidence Sadie. I back everything up but you don't!
The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open. (GM 10 May)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 07:18:53 PM
Evidence Sadie. Who saw the window open? Answer the question.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 07:48:48 PM
That half-open door again. Did it move 8)--))
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 07, 2015, 07:50:38 PM
LOL - I'm talking about a car PF - not a spaceship. Strange as it may seem to you - they do have cars in Portugal.
IMO It's perfectly possible that a car was parked out of sight in a nearby road or carpark. It's only when something is impossible - like Gerry knowing in advance what time the police were going to arrive - that it should be ruled out IMO.
No need to know what time the police are going to arrive if you know they haven't yet been called out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 07:54:28 PM
And so does mine, but I read the evidence in a very different way to you.
Your theories are totally made up and you dont even bother to state that they are IN YOUR OPINION.
My theories have logic behind them as well as the other things that you mention .... but unlike you with YOUR theory, I know that mine could be incorrect. It is far more likely than yours tho. IMO
You obviously have been so absorbed by your OWN theory that you haven't bothered to even read mine, until just .... and it has been posted in quite a lot of detail several times before.
I believe that there was a get-away car parked in the parking area opposite the Tapas Reception. That it was unable to pick up Tannerman and Madeleine as scheduled because unexpectedly Gerry and Jez were in the way chatting
AND, even more pertinently: .... Jane Tanner acrtually witnessed the abductor carrying Madeleine.. I believe that the driver of the getaway car scarpered, driving south and leaving Tannerman in the lurch, carrying Madeleine.
How do YOU KNOW what opened the door? I think that it was the abductor, but you prefer otherwise.
Obviously if the window was open when Matt visually checked, then the weather must have been calm, because the curtains did not flutter.
The calm before the storm?
YOU dont know and I dont know. That is the truth of the matter.
Have you told Operation Grange Redwood was wrong when he eliminated Tannerman? Maybe that's why he retired.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 08:29:22 PM
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
What a strange question. Why should it move unless the window had been re-opened or someone went in.
Is it a trick question? Cos it doesn't make any sense.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 08:41:13 PM
No need to know what time the police are going to arrive if you know they haven't yet been called out.
BUT .... BUT they were not to know that the waiter had called the reception to call the police, or what time that happened .,.,.. so if they were up to anything nefarious, they could have been caught out.
Try again Gunit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 08:41:53 PM
4078 'Is there anything else, that you smelt, could you smell anything''
Reply 'No, no, we've talked about that before, I didn't smell anything, I mean, I could see the children breathing, but I didn't clock it as abnormal, erm, it'd be completely to speculate to say whether their breathing was fast or, I couldn't say, I mean, they were breathing and that's what, you know, and that was what I was there to check, erm, no, no funny sort of smells, no sort of funny draughts, no sort of funny sort of noises, no, erm, nothing that I can think of for that. I mean, it was a complete just a shock out of the blue when, you know, I'd been in and then suddenly somebody's saying Madeleine's missing, there was nothing that made me think, oh'.
Never noticed that part before...so he was there to check the kids, breathing? Why? And if he was there to do that, why did he not bother to check where Madeleine even was? (Apart from checking for her in the parents bedroom according to his wife) A little odd. Was it just in his head? Seeing as Kate McCann didn't do her check to check on breathing, as she says she was tempted to walk right back after hearing no sounds from outside the door. He didn't do so at 9pm, Gerry all week had never felt the need to do this as he made no visual checks until that night. Someone will shout nitpicking now I'm sure.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 08:46:29 PM
Exactly they were not called straight away. Call the police or tamper with shutters &%+((£ Tampering with shutters won.
One of the waiters called the Reception to call the police and Matt ran down to reception within about 5 10 minutes of Kate seeing that Madeleine was missing.
No-one, not even you, would call the Police immediately if there is a possibility that the missing Madeleine was wandering nearby.
Please be realistic instead of continually trying to deliberately stir it up for The Mccanns.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 08:52:54 PM
Never noticed that part before...so he was there to check the kids, breathing? Why? And if he was there to do that, why did he not bother to check where Madeleine even was? (Apart from checking for her in the parents bedroom according to his wife) A little odd. Was it just in his head? Seeing as Kate McCann didn't do her check to check on breathing, as she says she was tempted to walk right back after hearing no sounds from outside the door. He didn't do so at 9pm, Gerry all week had never felt the need to do this as he made no visual checks until that night. Someone will shout nitpicking now I'm sure.
BWHAHAHA
Obfuscation. Deliberately misconstrueing what happened when Matt went into 5A [and using a third party statement at that. Why not use Matts statement? Do you prefer Third party statements and Chinese Whispers?]
And how do YOU KNOW that Gerry had never done a visual check all week? Were you there?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 09:02:27 PM
Obfuscation. Deliberately misconstrueing what happened when Matt went into 5A [and using a third party statement at that. Why not use Matts statement? Do you prefer Third party statements and Chinese Whispers?]
And how do YOU KNOW that Gerry had never done a visual check all week? Were you there?
- What does BWAHAHAHA stand for? I've never came across that acronym before. - What am I deliberately misconstruing? Do tell. It is a fact that Matt never bothered to set eyes on Madeleine even though he states he went in to check the kids were breathing!!!. It is a fact his wife told the police he went into the Mccanns bedroom as he wondered where she slept. - How DO I know? That Gerry did not make a visual check alll all week?. because he said so in his own documentary which proves you are not as au fait with all the details of this case. - Perhaps you might like to answer my query anyway.But you don't have to as it's not a major deal (until you made it one) Honestly.!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 07, 2015, 09:15:18 PM
One of the waiters called the Reception to call the police and Matt ran down to reception within about 5 10 minutes of Kate seeing that Madeleine was missing.
No-one, not even you, would call the Police immediately if there is a possibility that the missing Madeleine was wandering nearby.
Please be realistic instead of continually trying to deliberately stir it up for The Mccanns.
To get it completely correct;
According to the receptionist he was notified of Madeleine's disappearance by a Tapas employee between 9.30 and 10pm and he immediately phoned the GNR. There is no record of this telephone call. Then John Hill and Gerald McCann came to reception and he phoned the GNR again. No mention of Matthew at all. Two calls were made, one at 10.41 and another one a little later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:02:40 PM
There would be a draught if the window was open. You think a window was open when Matt was there with no evidence and his fingerprints weren't found on it. Your theory has no evidence. You think Tannerman did it and SY disagree with you and agree it is my man - the prime suspect.
The Prime suspect is NOT your man. SY have re-iterated that several times
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 11:06:43 PM
No thanks or apology Sadie. JUST in case you EVER bring up the falsity of the Mccanns did visual checks every night. Ta
It would also help to stop the merrygorounds when facts have been established iv people such as you bring up untruths time and time again
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:07:42 PM
That's because slats were open. That is from witness evidence Sadie. I back everything up but you don't!
The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open. (GM 10 May)
That is about May 2nd . BUT this is what Gerry means by two or three slats being open
He means like this, below.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/IMG_0728_small.jpg (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/IMG_0728_small.jpg) Blinds completely down, but arranged so that 2 or 3 of the slats let in some light via little holes. THey were NOT OPEN in the way you are intimating
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 11:12:57 PM
That is about May 2nd . BUT this is what Gerry means by two or three slats being open
He means like this, below.
http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/IMG_0728_small.jpg (http://www.gerrymccannsblogs.co.uk/IMG_0728_small.jpg) Blinds completely down, but arranged so that 2 or 3 of the slats let in some light via little holes. THey were NOT OPEN in the way you are intimating
What do you mean it's about the 2 May? LOL. The shutters stayed that way all week. The cleaner doesn't need to touch the shutters to clean the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:17:05 PM
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
So WHAT !?
That was yonks after the event and you KNOW IT !
Obfuscation again.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:22:14 PM
You can't prove that door moved at all when witnesses except for the McCanns only saw it half-open - Matt & Emma. And Gerry saw it half-open when he checked so he claims it moved. Shame he forgot to mention that important revelation in his first statement on 4 May and thought Matt saw it the normal ajar position. Matt contradicted you Gerry. Amazing what you find when you study evidence Sadie.
At about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. He entered the bedroom, he observed the twins and he did not even notice whether Madeleine was there" [Notes on the three crucial words in this last sentence: "nem sequer reparou" - "nem sequer" means "not even"; - Verb "reparar" (in this context): to notice, to observe, to see, to take notice of, to pay attention to, to mind, to look out] as everything was calm, the shutters were closed and the door to the bedroom was ajar as usual. "After that Matt returned to the restaurant."
According to the receptionist he was notified of Madeleine's disappearance by a Tapas employee between 9.30 and 10pm and he immediately phoned the GNR. There is no record of this telephone call. Then John Hill and Gerald McCann came to reception and he phoned the GNR again. No mention of Matthew at all. Two calls were made, one at 10.41 and another one a little later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
Which Tapas employee? I am working my way up the food chain on my blog and so far I have heard claims, but the evidence is thin on the ground.
At the moment it looks likes Mathew asked Helder to call the police, quite early on. And Helder did not, but he says he contacted the police immediately someone phoned from Tapas, and the call went through at 10:41
There are so many bodies on the ground at that time - Amy Tierney, Lindsay Johnson, John Hill.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:27:56 PM
- What does BWAHAHAHA stand for? I've never came across that acronym before. - What am I deliberately misconstruing? Do tell. It is a fact that Matt never bothered to set eyes on Madeleine even though he states he went in to check the kids were breathing!!!. It is a fact his wife told the police he went into the Mccanns bedroom as he wondered where she slept. - How DO I know? That Gerry did not make a visual check alll all week?. because he said so in his own documentary which proves you are not as au fait with all the details of this case. - Perhaps you might like to answer my query anyway.But you don't have to as it's not a major deal (until you made it one) Honestly.!!
Please get it right. He said he saw the twins were breathing NOT that his main aim was to check they were breathing.
You too twist everything that you can.
Do YOUI VISUALLY CHECK your children every half hour?
We certainly did not, cos it would have wakened my son particularly. All quiet at the door and all was well .... as I suspect virtually every other parent checks.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 11:30:46 PM
Please get it right. He said he saw the twins were breathing NOT that his main aim was to check they were breathing.
You too twist everything that you can.
Do YOUI VISUALLY CHECK your children every half hour?
We certainly did not, cos it would have wakened my son particularly. All quiet at the door and all was well .... as I suspect virtually every other parent checks.
That's because the door was open not ajar. Gerry thought it was still ajar in his first statement and when Matt checked. But he later said it was half-open. I wish he would make his mind up about that door just like the key. If the PJ did a reconstruction they would have to do two versions to match with different statements and then say enough of this shit! What really happened?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:38:07 PM
According to the receptionist he was notified of Madeleine's disappearance by a Tapas employee between 9.30 and 10pm and he immediately phoned the GNR. There is no record of this telephone call. Then John Hill and Gerald McCann came to reception and he phoned the GNR again. No mention of Matthew at all. Two calls were made, one at 10.41 and another one a little later. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/HELDER_LUIS.htm
It is in one of the waiters statements that he phoned the Recerption VERY early.... soon after 10pm It is in several statements that Matt ran to Reception and asked them to call the police VERY early ... at about 10.05 - 10.10
Do you think it is possible that the Reception Staff are covering their backs by forgetting this waiters call and this request from Matt.
Do you think the Reception staff might have been very negligent not calling the Police sooner?.
Do you think it might have been better to forget things a little, maybe?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 11:40:50 PM
Please get it right. He said he saw the twins were breathing NOT that his main aim was to check they were breathing.
You too twist everything that you can.
Do YOUI VISUALLY CHECK your children every half hour?
We certainly did not, cos it would have wakened my son particularly. All quiet at the door and all was well .... as I suspect virtually every other parent checks.
Why are you in denial? MATT OLDFIEld stated in his rogatory interview HE WENT TO check THE KIDS Were breathing...did you not read back!!! AND GERRY SAID he NEVER checked visually all week...FACT SADIE FACTS!!! LoL
I'm not twisting a single thing you owe me an Apology
8((()*/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:46:14 PM
No thanks or apology Sadie. JUST in case you EVER bring up the falsity of the Mccanns did visual checks every night. Ta
It would also help to stop the merrygorounds when facts have been established iv people such as you bring up untruths time and time again
Arec you calling me a liar?
You say that Gerry said he did No visual checks before this.
Cite please and dont ask me to wade thru reams of small print cos I aint goinna. A proper cite please. Not that it matters cos no-body normal would feel the need to check visually every half hour
Now Kate, did she check visually .... and why would she ?
Did you check visually every half hour when YOUR children were sleeping ? What over-blown rubbish.
You are out of touch with normality and reality, IMHO
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 07, 2015, 11:49:36 PM
You say that Gerry said he did No visual checks before this.
Cite please and dont ask me to wade thru reams of small print cos I aint goinna. A proper cite please. Not that it matters cos no-body normal would feel the need to check visually every half hour
Now Kate, did she check visually .... and why would she ?
Did you check visually every half hour when YOUR children were sleeping ? What over-blown rubbish.
You are out of touch with normality and reality, IMHO
Are you hard of hearing? I already gave you a cite for Gerry saying he made NO VISUAL checks all week..or do you just IGNORE things that you don't like, which is it??? it's bizarre at best that you accuse me of being out of touch with reality when I've already given you a reality check in a source for Gerry saying exactly that loooool If you continue to ignore the facts then yes I WILL call you a liar if you continue to spread untruths WITH knowledge they are just that, hopefully by now YOure educated
5 04 mins watch and hear
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 07, 2015, 11:50:01 PM
I went to check on Grace and I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said, you know, do you want us to go and check on, erm, do you want me to go and check on your kids, erm, and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and, you know, it may or it may not have been different. But, erm, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there. And there was me and Russell as well, so, erm, you know, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it. Also, having somebody else there with me, it sort of felt sort of more, more sort of natural and normal. So we went out and we debated about whether we'd go in first or go in later, but Russell wanted to get back because Evie had been a little bit unsettled and so we went back first and he went in and I went in to check on Grace and actually went in through the door, unlocked the door, looked in, into her room, all fine, came back out, shut the door, erm, went over to his apartment and he said that Evie had been sick so he was staying back with her. So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the door was open. Erm, I've spent a lot of time debating how far the door was open, from previous questioning, and, you know, it wasn't flat back against the wall, because that would have looked odd, it was just sort of halfway open, so it seemed slightly unusual that it should be so wide open, because you could see straight into the middle of the room from the angle that you approach it, because the, you've got sofas here and you've got a bookcase here and you have to come out, you've got sort of the wall of the bedroom and then it goes back where the bathroom is and then comes out again, so you've got to come out round this wall to sort of, not out round this wall, but you come in and the doorway is sort of recessed, so you can see pretty much straight into the room from the doorway back or certainly as soon as you get past that final wall. So it seemed odd to have that door open, it's certainly not something that, you know, Grace has it completely pitch black, because it seems to me that she sleeps a bit longer, erm, but some people do leave the door open and I know Russell and Jane, for Ella, and Lily subsequent, also has the door slightly open, you know, they have light and they prefer that, but we've never done that with Grace, so it seemed a little bit odd, but not without the realm of possibility. So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet. And the other things you could see in the room, there was a, there was another bed at the back underneath the window at the far side and you could see the end of the bed, another bed here. And because I was looking for, you know, wellpeople say, well why didn't you go in the room, why didn't you check on Madeleine, you were, you said you'd go and check, but it was just that, we were just satisfying ourselves that nobody was upset and awake and crying, we didn't expect that if I checked each three beds somebody, it just wasn't sort of something that you thought about, you just thought, you know, is somebody, you know, upset, do they want their mum or something, you can say, you know, somebody might have vomited and you wouldn't know about it, but there was, you know, nobody was awake, you thought, if something, just one, it'd be, it'd sort of feel a bit odd, you know, from the draughts, you know, when Kate went in something about the door shutting, there was, I presume, a through draught. So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out, said all was quiet when I got back to the table and then we went on with food. Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming through the doorway from behind me, which his why I said that I thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of, you know, it's a questions of whether, there was no sort of slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet'.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 07, 2015, 11:57:52 PM
You can't prove that door moved at all when witnesses except for the McCanns only saw it half-open - Matt & Emma. And Gerry saw it half-open when he checked so he claims it moved. Shame he forgot to mention that important revelation in his first statement on 4 May and thought Matt saw it the normal ajar position. Matt contradicted you Gerry. Amazing what you find when you study evidence Sadie.
At about 21.05 the witness came to the Club, entered the room using his respective key, the door being locked, went to his children's bedroom and checked that the twins were fine, as was Madeleine. "He then went to the WC" where he remained for a few moments, left, and bumped into a person he had played tennis with and who had a child's push chair, he was also British, he had a short conversation with him, "returning after that to the restaurant." At about 21.30 his friend Matt (member of the group) went to the apartment, where his children were and on his way went to the witness' apartment, entering by means of a glass sliding door that was always unlocked and was located laterally to the building. He entered the bedroom, he observed the twins and he did not even notice whether Madeleine was there" [Notes on the three crucial words in this last sentence: "nem sequer reparou" - "nem sequer" means "not even"; - Verb "reparar" (in this context): to notice, to observe, to see, to take notice of, to pay attention to, to mind, to look out] as everything was calm, the shutters were closed and the door to the bedroom was ajar as usual. "After that Matt returned to the restaurant."
How bizarre to mention Emma. She is NOT rtelevant. She came after everyone knew thta Madeleine was gone. Obfuscation .
OK, Gerry made a mistake about entering via the front door.
FGS this was less than 24 hours after his beloved daughter had gone missing and he had lost best part of a nights sleep. He must have been near demented and remembered in patches as I did after my son died. He remembered what had happened on a previous evening.
Have you NO EMPATHY .... NO UNDERSTANDING ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 08, 2015, 12:07:02 AM
I went to check on Grace and I stood up and Russell stood up and said he was going to go and check as well and Kate stood up and I said, you know, do you want us to go and check on, erm, do you want me to go and check on your kids, erm, and she said yes. And I think I offered at that point just because we had been together all week and we had similar routines and it just kind of seemed like a nice thing to do that would save her a journey back up and, you know, it may or it may not have been different. But, erm, I said that and she said yeah fine and she said that the patio door was open and go in through there. And there was me and Russell as well, so, erm, you know, it seemed, at the time, a very reasonable thing to do, even though it was the first time that we'd certainly done it. Also, having somebody else there with me, it sort of felt sort of more, more sort of natural and normal. So we went out and we debated about whether we'd go in first or go in later, but Russell wanted to get back because Evie had been a little bit unsettled and so we went back first and he went in and I went in to check on Grace and actually went in through the door, unlocked the door, looked in, into her room, all fine, came back out, shut the door, erm, went over to his apartment and he said that Evie had been sick so he was staying back with her. So I went back and did the check on five 'A', on Madeleine and the kids, erm, and went back through the patio entrance, so through the gate, through the patio doors, erm, there was, it was light enough to see through the apartment and there sort of a little table light on the right at the end of the sofa and when you walk into the room, you could see straight into it, because the door was open. Erm, I've spent a lot of time debating how far the door was open, from previous questioning, and, you know, it wasn't flat back against the wall, because that would have looked odd, it was just sort of halfway open, so it seemed slightly unusual that it should be so wide open, because you could see straight into the middle of the room from the angle that you approach it, because the, you've got sofas here and you've got a bookcase here and you have to come out, you've got sort of the wall of the bedroom and then it goes back where the bathroom is and then comes out again, so you've got to come out round this wall to sort of, not out round this wall, but you come in and the doorway is sort of recessed, so you can see pretty much straight into the room from the doorway back or certainly as soon as you get past that final wall. So it seemed odd to have that door open, it's certainly not something that, you know, Grace has it completely pitch black, because it seems to me that she sleeps a bit longer, erm, but some people do leave the door open and I know Russell and Jane, for Ella, and Lily subsequent, also has the door slightly open, you know, they have light and they prefer that, but we've never done that with Grace, so it seemed a little bit odd, but not without the realm of possibility. So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet. And the other things you could see in the room, there was a, there was another bed at the back underneath the window at the far side and you could see the end of the bed, another bed here. And because I was looking for, you know, wellpeople say, well why didn't you go in the room, why didn't you check on Madeleine, you were, you said you'd go and check, but it was just that, we were just satisfying ourselves that nobody was upset and awake and crying, we didn't expect that if I checked each three beds somebody, it just wasn't sort of something that you thought about, you just thought, you know, is somebody, you know, upset, do they want their mum or something, you can say, you know, somebody might have vomited and you wouldn't know about it, but there was, you know, nobody was awake, you thought, if something, just one, it'd be, it'd sort of feel a bit odd, you know, from the draughts, you know, when Kate went in something about the door shutting, there was, I presume, a through draught. So I just sort of went towards the doorway, I didn't step over the threshold, I didn't see Madeleine and I didn't check, I turned round and came back out, said all was quiet when I got back to the table and then we went on with food. Now the room was, we talked also in the interviews about how light the room was and whether I could see the shutters, and I can't see the shutters because thee curtains were shut and, they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, because I'm sure I'd have noticed if there was sort of movement like that. But the room seemed light, and we spent a lot of time talking about this, whether it could be light coming in from the street outside, but there was a light behind us in the room and for some reason I thought, I got the impression of light coming through the doorway from behind me, which his why I said that I thought perhaps the moon was out, erm, but there as no sort of, you know, it's a questions of whether, there was no sort of slats of light coming through the back that particularly caught my eye. So I didn't specifically see the shutters and I couldn't say that they were definitely open, but certainly the curtains were shut and everything was quiet'.
Thanks Pathfinder, but that proves nothing contraversial that you have said.
Interesting to reread tho 8((()*/
Am off to bed now
Nigh Night all.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 12:10:19 AM
Nite Sadie look forward to your apology and acceptance you were wrong for ages sleep tight
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 12:18:33 AM
How bizarre to mention Emma. She is NOT rtelevant. She came after everyone knew thta Madeleine was gone. Obfuscation .
OK, Gerry made a mistake about entering via the front door.
FGS this was less than 24 hours after his beloved daughter had gone missing and he had lost best part of a nights sleep. He must have been near demented and remembered in patches as I did after my son died. He remembered what had happened on a previous evening.
Have you NO EMPATHY .... NO UNDERSTANDING ?
Oh and stop your accusatory moralising...people have empathy for those they believe are victims ....how dare you if someone doesn't believe a certain person does not mean they have no empathy..it means they don't believe them...not good at logic are you?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: sadie on September 08, 2015, 12:40:46 AM
Have realised that I haven't posted these details that I had gathered about the shutter /blinds from Gerry Mccanns statement. Unfortunately third party not verbatim http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm[/quote]
Referring to the 2nd May, Gerry said: The outside blinds were closed with only two or three slats open, the window was closed though now he he is not totally sure if it was locked, and the curtains drawn closed. And these small holes are what he meant by only two or three slats being open
He does not know if the window next to the front door, and that gave access to the children's bedroom, was locked, given that he assumed that the outside blinds could not be opened from the outside
20.35 as they left for the Tapas Restaurant ----- He is certain that, before leaving home the children's bedroom was totally dark, with the window closed, but he does not know it was locked, the external blinds closed but with some slats open, and the curtains also drawn closed. Asked, he relates that during the night the artificial light coming in from the outside is very weak, because, without a light being on in the lounge or the kitchen, the visibility inside the bedroom is much reduced
Almost no light light would get through those little holes cos the street lamps, already feeble, were masked by the actual lamps being in the head of the tree.... and then the curtains were drawn across the windows.
9.05 In this way he entered the children's bedroom and established visual contact with each of them, checking and is certain of this, that the three were sleeping deeply. He left the children's bedroom returning to place the door how he had already previously described, [then] going to the bathroom. Everything else was normal, the blinds, curtains and windows closed, very dark, there only being the light that came from the lounge
10.00 The deponent ran to the apartment accompanied by the rest of the group who, at the time, were seated at the table. When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back
Also from Kate Mccanns statement, but third party again. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN_ARGUIDO.htm
The window in Madeleine's room remained closed, but she doesn't know if it was locked, blinds and curtains drawn. The window remained like this since the first day, night and day. She never opened it. If somebody saw the window blinds in Madeleine's room open, it was not Kate who opened them, she never saw them open.[/color]
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 12:55:35 AM
Who saw the window open? You still haven't answered that question.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 12:58:53 AM
Yep that is quite possible as well altho it might be more difficult to watch the front and the back from there. In support of your theory is the fact that two men, strangers, were seen on the balcony there, were they not?
Personally, I feel pretty sure tha Madeleine was taken up to Porto .... so many sightings that we were not made aware of, seem to indicate that, including later the Carlos Moreira sighting at the roadside snack bar half way up to Porto. The sightings fit the bill exactly timewise and Geographically. I have motored it and I know that they are perfectly good.
I think the first leg of the journey, however, started probably in a little boat off the small rocky beach in PdL
This joined up with a larger boat and with Madeleine safely away from search areas around PdL it sailed up to Sines arriving in time for a dawn hand over to the white van which then took Madeleine up to Porto.
This was the white van which Carlos Moreira saw with a little ?sleeping blonde girl in pyjamas like Madeleines, lying on rags in the back .... and the driver trying to hide her from view .... too late ! This was on the N10, the old pre-motorway main route up to Porto.
This also takes Madeleine up to the close area of the first missing child abduction of Jorge Sepulveda in 1991 [Just two miles away from where the taxi in Processos 809 dropped Madeleine!] ....
After Jorge Sepulveda there was another child abduction roughly every two years. Eight abductions in all, culminating in the abduction of Madeleine in 2007.
The man I suspect has close ties to both the Porto region and the PdL Algarve region.
please link to the so many sightings we weren't told of....and take the post over to claimed sightings of Madeleine thread please as that is the correct thread, I will then delete my post here and you can yours too
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 08, 2015, 01:04:15 AM
Exactly they were not called straight away. Call the police or tamper with shutters &%+((£ Tampering with shutters won.
But how would Gerry know beforehand that the police were not going to be called straightaway? Someone outside of the group could have called them as soon as the alarm was raised. How did he know Mrs Fenn wouldn't immediately call them or Reception on hearing the commotion? How did he know in advance that there was not going to be a couple of waiters at their table when Kate raised the alarm - who might have immediately called the police - or neighbours or other passing holidaymakers?
How could he know there wasn't one - or even more police cars in the area - who could be at the complex within minutes after he left?
How could he know in advance that he wasn't going to bump into any number of holiday makers or locals during the time he was openly carrying a dead body through the streets? It wasn't as if it was in the dead of night when everyone was in bed.
How did he know in advance that when he returned and changed his clothing - none of the many people who were around by that time, would notice.
No-one in their right mind would devise a plan with so many unknown possible eventualities - all of which could be his downfall. Especially when there were far simpler plans he could have adopted.
IMO your theory fails PF - because it is based on hindsight of events which Gerry could not possibly have foreseen at the time.
If the open window and shutters were planned by Kate and Gerry to be the proof of an intruder - why did he close them before the police arrived? That makes no sense.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 08, 2015, 08:15:02 AM
But how would Gerry know beforehand that the police were not going to be called straightaway? Someone outside of the group could have called them as soon as the alarm was raised. How did he know Mrs Fenn wouldn't immediately call them or Reception on hearing the commotion? How did he know in advance that there was not going to be a couple of waiters at their table when Kate raised the alarm - who might have immediately called the police - or neighbours or other passing holidaymakers?
How could he know there wasn't one - or even more police cars in the area - who could be at the complex within minutes after he left?
How could he know in advance that he wasn't going to bump into any number of holiday makers or locals during the time he was openly carrying a dead body through the streets? It wasn't as if it was in the dead of night when everyone was in bed.
How did he know in advance that when he returned and changed his clothing - none of the many people who were around by that time, would notice.
No-one in their right mind would devise a plan with so many unknown possible eventualities - all of which could be his downfall. Especially when there were far simpler plans he could have adopted.
IMO your theory fails PF - because it is based on hindsight of events which Gerry could not possibly have foreseen at the time.
If the open window and shutters were planned by Kate and Gerry to be the proof of an intruder - why did he close them before the police arrived? That makes no sense.
There's too much logical thinking going on in that post, careful now!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2015, 08:47:39 AM
But how would Gerry know beforehand that the police were not going to be called straightaway? Someone outside of the group could have called them as soon as the alarm was raised. How did he know Mrs Fenn wouldn't immediately call them or Reception on hearing the commotion? How did he know in advance that there was not going to be a couple of waiters at their table when Kate raised the alarm - who might have immediately called the police - or neighbours or other passing holidaymakers?
How could he know there wasn't one - or even more police cars in the area - who could be at the complex within minutes after he left?
How could he know in advance that he wasn't going to bump into any number of holiday makers or locals during the time he was openly carrying a dead body through the streets? It wasn't as if it was in the dead of night when everyone was in bed.
How did he know in advance that when he returned and changed his clothing - none of the many people who were around by that time, would notice.
No-one in their right mind would devise a plan with so many unknown possible eventualities - all of which could be his downfall. Especially when there were far simpler plans he could have adopted.
IMO your theory fails PF - because it is based on hindsight of events which Gerry could not possibly have foreseen at the time.
If the open window and shutters were planned by Kate and Gerry to be the proof of an intruder - why did he close them before the police arrived? That makes no sense.
A great deal of your supposition depends on whether the mccanns told the truth.
That my dear has not been tested in court.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 08, 2015, 08:54:20 AM
My post was related entirely to Pathfinder's theory on how and when a body was removed from 5a and by whom - and questioned it's practicality and credibility.
What has any of that got to do with who did or didn't tell the truth? It has no bearing on my post whatsoever. We are talking about a suggested theory.
Even though I don't accept PF's theory. At least he has got one. Maybe you should give us your theory on how a body could be disposed of from 5A - instead of constantly trying to deflect attention away from any post you don't like - but can't dispute.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2015, 09:58:26 AM
My post was related entirely to Pathfinder's theory on how and when a body was removed from 5a and by whom - and questioned it's practicality and credibility.
What has any of that got to do with who did or didn't tell the truth? It has no bearing on my post whatsoever. We are talking about a suggested theory.
Even though I don't accept PF's theory. At least he has got one. Maybe you should give us your theory on how a body could be disposed of from 5A - instead of constantly trying to deflect attention away from any post you don't like - but can't dispute.
I have 2 possibilities in that regard, but after all, I would not wish to post potentially libellous posts on here, would I.
That's not including the theory that Angelo believes in, which certainly has merit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 08, 2015, 10:05:37 AM
I have 2 possibilities in that regard, but after all, I would not wish to post potentially libellous posts on here, would I.
That's not including the theory that Angelo believes in, which certainly has merit.
As long as you make it clear it is only a theory and not something you are claiming as fact - then it won't be libellous IMO. Pathfinder has managed to do it (and according to you - apparently Angelo has too) - so what are you waiting for?
Let's debate your theories.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 08, 2015, 10:11:15 AM
As long as you make it clear it is only a theory and not something you are claiming as fact - then it won't be libellous IMO. Pathfinder has managed to do it (and according to you - apparently Angelo has too) - so what are you waiting for?
Let's debate your theories.
Well, i believe you know the first part already.
So let's start first with the accidental death scenario and why the abduction scenario doesn't add up.
Then we can proceed from there.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 08, 2015, 10:17:51 AM
But how would Gerry know beforehand that the police were not going to be called straightaway? Someone outside of the group could have called them as soon as the alarm was raised. How did he know Mrs Fenn wouldn't immediately call them or Reception on hearing the commotion? How did he know in advance that there was not going to be a couple of waiters at their table when Kate raised the alarm - who might have immediately called the police - or neighbours or other passing holidaymakers?
How could he know there wasn't one - or even more police cars in the area - who could be at the complex within minutes after he left?
How could he know in advance that he wasn't going to bump into any number of holiday makers or locals during the time he was openly carrying a dead body through the streets? It wasn't as if it was in the dead of night when everyone was in bed.
How did he know in advance that when he returned and changed his clothing - none of the many people who were around by that time, would notice.
No-one in their right mind would devise a plan with so many unknown possible eventualities - all of which could be his downfall. Especially when there were far simpler plans he could have adopted.
IMO your theory fails PF - because it is based on hindsight of events which Gerry could not possibly have foreseen at the time.
If the open window and shutters were planned by Kate and Gerry to be the proof of an intruder - why did he close them before the police arrived? That makes no sense.
I wonder why these alleged master criminals didn't just arrange a pillow under Madeleine's covers and 'discover' her missing and the open window in the morning? That would have given them so much more time to work on 'staging' the event ... maybe actually 'jemmying' the shutters.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 08, 2015, 10:18:23 AM
But how would Gerry know beforehand that the police were not going to be called straightaway? Someone outside of the group could have called them as soon as the alarm was raised. How did he know Mrs Fenn wouldn't immediately call them or Reception on hearing the commotion? How did he know in advance that there was not going to be a couple of waiters at their table when Kate raised the alarm - who might have immediately called the police - or neighbours or other passing holidaymakers?
How could he know there wasn't one - or even more police cars in the area - who could be at the complex within minutes after he left?
How could he know in advance that he wasn't going to bump into any number of holiday makers or locals during the time he was openly carrying a dead body through the streets? It wasn't as if it was in the dead of night when everyone was in bed.
How did he know in advance that when he returned and changed his clothing - none of the many people who were around by that time, would notice.
No-one in their right mind would devise a plan with so many unknown possible eventualities - all of which could be his downfall. Especially when there were far simpler plans he could have adopted.
IMO your theory fails PF - because it is based on hindsight of events which Gerry could not possibly have foreseen at the time.
If the open window and shutters were planned by Kate and Gerry to be the proof of an intruder - why did he close them before the police arrived? That makes no sense.
My theory doesn't fail when you are working from the correct timeline not the fantasy one of 10:03 going to check. You are correct he didn't know when the police would be called but he first made sure everyone had split up to search for her and not call the police but Kate could have called them being alone in the apartment. Who saw him examining shutters? Answer the question.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 08, 2015, 11:36:40 AM
My theory doesn't fail when you are working from the correct timeline not the fantasy one of 10:03 going to check. You are correct he didn't know when the police would be called but he first made sure everyone had split up to search for her and not call the police but Kate could have called them being alone in the apartment. Who saw him examining shutters? Answer the question.
As far as your theory and the timeline is concerned ... why didn't they just do as I suggested in a previous post and leave themselves all night to properly 'stage' a scene?
None of this faffing about with dead children in tow and running into holidaymakers and their families on the way ... nobody much about between say 3.30am and 4.00am I would imagine ... plenty of time to make it really look like the apartment had been rummaged through and time for shutters to be broken etc ...
Instead of that ~ the silly cookies made sure they lowered the shutters (the raising of which is a pivotal fact of their staging a scene we have been told) before any one could see them ~ to check if it was possible to raise them from outside.
Maybe they just went for the buzz and excitement of making sure they had to have hundreds of people and law enforcement running about while they were in the middle of their devilishly cunning plan of dumping a body on the beach then retrieving it for disposal ... fridge??? coffin??? dog crem???
Hmmm ... when I think about it ... an unthinkable plan of action for which there was no need. Just have a leisurely wait till the morning ... then do the business.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 08, 2015, 11:44:37 AM
As far as your theory and the timeline is concerned ... why didn't they just do as I suggested in a previous post and leave themselves all night to properly 'stage' a scene?
None of this faffing about with dead children in tow and running into holidaymakers and their families on the way ... nobody much about between say 3.30am and 4.00am I would imagine ... plenty of time to make it really look like the apartment had been rummaged through and time for shutters to be broken etc ...
Instead of that ~ the silly cookies made sure they lowered the shutters (the raising of which is a pivotal fact of their staging a scene we have been told) before any one could see them ~ to check if it was possible to raise them from outside.
Maybe they just went for the buzz and excitement of making sure they had to have hundreds of people and law enforcement running about while they were in the middle of their devilishly cunning plan of dumping a body on the beach then retrieving it for disposal ... fridge??? coffin??? dog crem???
Hmmm ... when I think about it ... an unthinkable plan of action for which there was no need. Just have a leisurely wait till the morning ... then do the business.
Who saw the shutters raised? Answer the question.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 08, 2015, 11:53:52 AM
and if she said she saw the loch ness monster would you believe her?
You certainly bring a certain je ne sais quoi to whichever discussion you choose to participate in ... at the moment though we are giving Nessie a bit of a miss in preference to discussing the raised shutter in Praia d Luz ... about which it seems you have no opinion.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 09, 2015, 11:14:59 AM
Correct because Dianne Webster didn't when she first got there and found Kate alone in the apartment.
4078 "Okay, the other thing was, you mentioned that when you went back into Kate and Gerry’s apartment immediately after Madeleine had gone missing, and I know you didn’t specify a time, and you went into the room and I think you made a comment that Kate had spoken to you about the shutters being, the window being open.” Reply "Yeah the shutters being up and the window open, yeah.” 4078 "Did you see that window at the time?” Reply "No I, my recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure about that.”
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 12:06:37 PM
(I edited this post to make it more complete) IMO 1st to see them raised was the person who opened them from outside, 2nd simultaneously was the child, 3rd some time later was the mother, and 4th about a minute after that the father.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 09, 2015, 12:20:24 PM
IMO the mother, and then a minute or two later the father, as per statements.
No independent witnesses to confirm that is the case. Blind faith is dangerous and you won't solve any case with that naive unrealistic approach. People lie to save their ass so face it! Others were in their apartment straight after the alarm but only Kate and Gerry saw the open window and raised shutters. Dianne Webster didn't. If you went inside you would want to see the open window &%+((£ Why are they tampering and destroying possible evidence straight away instead of calling the cops?
David Payne can never give a straight answer &%+((£
00:39:00 1485 "Did you enter the MCCANN apartment' Well you did. Did you enter the children's room' Which you did. You described what you saw, you've said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything strange about it''
Reply "Err, as I say, you know about before, the amount of screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of them could just sleep through it, you know, again, perhaps just take on board saying that you know sometimes you know, they've had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping through and you know it was just very bizarre that they continued to sleep through. Err you know I did notice obviously that, the change in the, you know the blind and the err window, but you know I can't accurately say it like other people did, you know what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn't say.'
1485 "What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window''
Reply "Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind's not, you know, err down it's open, you know (WTF! - PF) so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn't tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.'
00:40:22 1485 "Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter''
Reply "Err I'm sure she did but what she exactly said and you know because we were, you know, the first thing you're trying to do is work out how it could be opened you know, what was, you know, err and you know the discussion whether it be open from the inside or the outside but what she said I can't remember. But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about what may have happened, it's difficult to say without, or you know things merge into one.'
1485 "What did you do next' Well you took part in assisting in the apartment then you did some searches with Russell and'' Reply "Matt.'
@Pathfinder "Others were in their apartment straight after the alarm" Straight after? Can you list them?
David Payne was inside but it was pointed out to him the window was open and shutters were up. He saw them down after the alarm. Don't take Gerry long to do his shutter examine does it 8(0(* Actually it's hard to get anything resembling a proper answer out of DP. Nobody saw the shutters raised except the McCanns &%+((£
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 09, 2015, 11:55:13 PM
David Payne was inside but it was pointed out to him the window was open and shutters were up. He saw them down after the alarm. Don't take Gerry long to do his shutter examine does it 8(0(* Actually it's hard to get anything resembling a proper answer out of DP. Nobody saw the shutters raised except the McCanns &%+((£
At this moment when KM and GM enter the apartment, how many metres away does your theory place the missing child? And BTW do you realise what the answer would be in Amaral's theory?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 12:11:42 AM
At this moment when KM and GM enter the apartment, how many metres away does your theory place the missing child? And BTW do you realise what the answer would be in Amaral's theory?
150-200 metres away. Amaral's theory could be the wardrobe but I don't know what his theory is.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 12:13:08 AM
Why did Gerry McCann feel the need to discover how an abductor got into the apartment at all? it's not as if it was a lock stock and barrelled place, was it?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 12:21:04 AM
Why did Gerry McCann feel the need to discover how an abductor got into the apartment at all? it's not as if it was a lock stock and barrelled place, was it?
Good point. No need to examine shutters when you should be out searching or calling the cops. And why would Kate get Dianne to check the shutters and try to raise them if Gerry had already done so? Dianne couldn't do it.
What was DP doing in the apartment when Gerry was doing all this? Speedy Gerry has got it sorted.
When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment. ----- Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside.
She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
How can the curtains be drawn back when she said this happened? (https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BoumUz8CQAA-D5t.png)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 12:38:11 AM
That picture is scary, please don't do that to me!! Conjures up images of the American idiots rapture
Well, apologists for everything and anything will argue its translation errors but we have three versions of the curtains positions and activities, must be three translation errors
The curtains were open Kate ran over and opened the curtains The curtains wooshed open Only one statement was taken in English b English people so can't be attributed to that excuse
Eta sorry my mistake two of those statements given in English to English listeners
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 12:46:03 AM
That picture is scary, please don't do that to me!!
Well, apologists for everything and anything will argue its translation errors but we have three versions of the curtains positions and activities, must be three translation errors
The curtains were open Kate ran over and opened the curtains The curtains wooshed open Only one statement was taken in English b English people so can't be attributed to that excuse
Only her statement on 4 May talks about her check and the curtains were open not closed. She wouldn't answer any questions about her check as arguido.
Then there's the book of truth:
As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 10, 2015, 12:53:34 AM
Why did Gerry McCann feel the need to discover how an abductor got into the apartment at all? it's not as if it was a lock stock and barrelled place, was it?
IMO at this point absolutely nothing was staged, neither person knew anything, there appeared to be only two obvious explanations for the open shutter 1. The child had opened it and climbed out. 2. Someone had opened it from outside and stolen the child. The important thing is that both appeared to be impossible. This is why GM and later DW tested theory 2 on this shutter, and FP tested theory 2 on another shutter. To work out whether they were looking for a wandered-out-window child or a stolen-by-window-entry child.
None of them solved the simple full opening method. GM solved only the first of the 3 stages.
IMO theory 1 is wrong and theory 2 is half right (an adult had opened it from outside but had not taken the child).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 12:54:03 AM
Only her statement on 4 May talks about her check and the curtains were open not closed. She wouldn't answer any questions about her check as arguido.
Then there's the book of truth:
As I ran back into the children’s room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear. Icy fear. Dear God, no! Please, no!
Exactlly....open (4 may) then not open but ran to open them (10 May) then closed but wind blew them open (her documentary) wish she'd make her mind up
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 10, 2015, 01:02:59 AM
IMO at this point absolutely nothing was staged, neither person knew anything, there were two obvious explanations for the open shutter 1. The child had opened it and climbed out. 2. An adult had opened it from outside and stolen the child. The important thing is that both appeared to be impossible. This is why GM and later DW tested theory 2 on this shutter, and FP tested theory 2 on another shutter. To work out whether they were looking for a wandered-out-window child or a stolen-via-window child.
None of them solved the simple full opening method. GM solved only the first of the 3 stages.
IMO theory 1 is wrong and theory 2 is half right (an adult had opened it from outside but had not taken the child).
Yes I suppose that's quick and clever thinking, IE if a child had opened the shutters from inside to escape the flat or someone opened them from outside to burgle or abduct
But where does that leave Kate McCann saying to all her friends at dinner that night she left the patio door open for Madeleine to go out of and go find them? No need to open shutters and climb out of them Did she even tell Madeleine she did this for that reason? is it in her BOOK???
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 01:06:47 AM
IMO at this point absolutely nothing was staged, neither person knew anything, there appeared to be only two obvious explanations for the open shutter 1. The child had opened it and climbed out. 2. Someone had opened it from outside and stolen the child. The important thing is that both appeared to be impossible. This is why GM and later DW tested theory 2 on this shutter, and FP tested theory 2 on another shutter. To work out whether they were looking for a wandered-out-window child or a stolen-by-window-entry child.
None of them solved the simple full opening method. GM solved only the first of the 3 stages.
IMO theory 1 is wrong and theory 2 is half right (an adult had opened it from outside but had not taken the child).
It makes no sense for Dianne to be examining them if they've just been checked by Gerry. They could have got broken with all this tampering going on hmmm...........
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 01:07:05 AM
It makes no sense for Dianne to be examining them if they've just been checked by Gerry. They could have got broken with all this tampering going on hmmm...........
I bet she was thinking wtf?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 01:12:22 AM
There were curtains and net curtains so it is important to decide which is described
Don't be silly. When you start from zero you accept nothing as the truth unless you can back it up. Nobody else seeing raised shutters raises a big question mark.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 10, 2015, 01:19:27 AM
Don't be silly. When you start from zero you accept nothing as the truth unless you can back it up. Nobody else seeing raised shutters raises a big question mark.
8 witnesses claimed to have seen something elsewhere yet they were all claimed to be mistaken. How much back-up do you require before something can be deemed as the truth?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 01:25:34 AM
8 witnesses claimed to have seen something elsewhere yet they were all claimed to be mistaken. How much back-up do you require before something can be deemed as the truth?
Depends how credible the witnesses are and IF they existed at all and weren't media fabrications....plus mistranslations...cuts both ways plus the fact it is NOT important to PJ or SY
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 01:30:38 AM
8 witnesses claimed to have seen something elsewhere yet they were all claimed to be mistaken. How much back-up do you require before something can be deemed as the truth?
The truth reveals itself when things contradict, don't fit or add up. You soon find out where the answer lies or who is probably lying.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 10, 2015, 01:33:06 AM
Depends how credible the witnesses are and IF they existed at all and weren't media fabrications....plus mistranslations...cuts both ways plus the fact it is NOT important to PJ or SY
They all made statements to the same effect & more than half were independent of each other. Why would they be considered not credible?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 10, 2015, 01:38:18 AM
Don't be silly. When you start from zero you accept nothing as the truth unless you can back it up. Nobody else seeing raised shutters raises a big question mark.
It does. But so does your theory. You seem to claim that someone decided to stage an open window and shutter, not by the obvious and easy method of opening them, which would have taken about 3 seconds, but instead by the cunning plan of leaving them closed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 10, 2015, 01:42:38 AM
It does. But so does your theory. You seem to claim that someone decided to stage an open window and shutter, not by the obvious and easy method of opening them, which would have taken about 3 seconds, but instead by the cunning plan of leaving them closed.
Gerry said he lowered and raised them outside not put them back down again? They were never seen raised. Dianne saw them down so it contradicts Gerry's statement.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 10, 2015, 02:22:19 AM
Gerry said he lowered and raised them outside not put them back down again? They were never seen raised. Dianne saw them down so it contradicts Gerry's statement.
GM closes the shutter from inside using the strap. Then he goes outside and partly raises the shutter by hand. The strap remains in the fully closed position BTW. When he stops pushing up, the shutter falls back down to closed position. This is simply a fact of how the shutter design works. If you don't believe me watch the PB video. So when he has finished, the shutter is in the closed position.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 10:13:00 AM
GM closes the shutter from inside using the strap. Then he goes outside and partly raises the shutter by hand. The strap remains in the fully closed position BTW. When he stops pushing up, the shutter falls back down to closed position. This is simply a fact of how the shutter design works. If you don't believe me watch the PB video. So when he has finished, the shutter is in the closed position.
And you don't mention that it fell straight back down again? That's another point - they can't raise all the way up by lifting outside. They go up to a certain height then get jammed and fall straight back down.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 02:59:06 PM
And you don't mention that it fell straight back down again? That's another point - they can't raise all the way up by lifting outside. They go up to a certain height then get jammed and fall straight back down.
There is a technique demonstrated by Heri for raising a shutter from outside ... a skill with which burglars were no doubt well acquainted.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 10, 2015, 03:09:43 PM
From that video, I am surmising that Madeleine was assumed to have been on or very close to the bed in front of the window, otherwise he could not have reached her
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 04:09:39 PM
From that video, I am surmising that Madeleine was assumed to have been on or very close to the bed in front of the window, otherwise he could not have reached her
I believe Heri is of the opinion that Madeleine could have sleepily approached having been wakened by the noise and was easily lifted through.
As can be seen the hypothesis is demonstrably possible ... both for time and ease of lifting through the window. No trace of an intruder left in the apartment for the simple reason s/he didn't enter. No fibres from Madeleine's clothing because she was light enough to be lifted with ease.
What Heri says is well worth a read, he is open to challenge as nothing is carved in tablets of stone ... but what he has to say is all thoroughly researched and considered.
Shutters don't fully raise from the outside and fall straight back down.
Why wasn't there any evidence of fingerprints, glove marks or marks found on the outside of the window. Did the intruder say the magic words "Open Sesame"?
It is only very recently that there was a general denial that it was possible to raise a closed shutter from outside. It is demonstrably possible and has at last had to be accepted as such. So even if "Open Sesame" were to work ... it isn't actually required.
The shutters only fall back down if the window is unlocked thus disabling being able to slide the window open, reach inside and raise the shutter using the mechanism ... a one person endeavour all as ably demonstrated by Heri.
Going back to Heri's example suggests why the window remained open and the shutter raised.
Easy for a single person to effect the opening.
Not so easy to release the shutter to lower it using the mechanism, slide the window closed while supporting the shutter right down into place ... while carrying the burden of a child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 05:44:32 PM
It is only very recently that there was a general denial that it was possible to raise a closed shutter from outside. It is demonstrably possible and has at last had to be accepted as such. So even if "Open Sesame" were to work ... it isn't actually required.
The shutters only fall back down if the window is unlocked thus disabling being able to slide the window open, reach inside and raise the shutter using the mechanism ... a one person endeavour all as ably demonstrated by Heri.
Going back to Heri's example suggests why the window remained open and the shutter raised.
Easy for a single person to effect the opening.
Not so easy to release the shutter to lower it using the mechanism, slide the window closed while supporting the shutter right down into place ... while carrying the burden of a child.
There is no evidence of the window being opened from the outside. Fingerprints were only found on the inside. The shutters were contaminated and therefore the crime scene was compromised. If you opened the window from the inside you wouldn't have to touch the shutters to raise them so there would be no marks on them. But with marks found on the outside of the shutters it suggests somebody tried to enter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 10, 2015, 07:12:19 PM
There is no evidence of the window being opened from the outside. Fingerprints were only found on the inside. The shutters were contaminated and therefore the crime scene was compromised. If you opened the window from the inside you wouldn't have to touch the shutters to raise them so there would be no marks on them. But with marks found on the outside of the shutters it suggests somebody tried to enter.
Indeed, Being possible doesn't mean that something actually happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 07:19:52 PM
Indeed, Being possible doesn't mean that something actually happened.
whereas being impossible means it definitely didn't, and that's what we were being told for years by "shutter experts" on forums. It proves that you should always take the views of self-proclaimed experts on internet with a pinch of salt.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 10, 2015, 07:20:42 PM
whereas being impossible means it definitely didn't, and that's what we were being told for years by "shutter experts" on forums. It proves that you should always take the views of self-proclaimed experts on internet with a pinch of salt.
Oh I do, particularly the one on here @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 10, 2015, 07:24:25 PM
Indeed, Being possible doesn't mean that something actually happened.
I would imagine that any investigator worth his or her salt would give consideration to the possibilities suggested by the locale. Of particular interest would be the break ins which had occurred in the same apartment block and those nearby. If there had been instances of assaults on British children in their beds ... a particular resonance might have been signalled when it was ascertained the child missing from her bed was British.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 07:25:01 PM
From that video, I am surmising that Madeleine was assumed to have been on or very close to the bed in front of the window, otherwise he could not have reached her
There's a lot of difference between an inanimate object (was that a pillow?) and a child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 08:26:51 PM
There's a lot of difference between an inanimate object (was that a pillow?) and a child.
According to Alf she weighed 28kg! 28lb more like but still a fair to weight to lift at arms length. See guides on manual handling.
As I understood it and from the photos there is an internal central locking CDA on the window that cannot be overridden from outside. So the window must have been left open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 08:34:10 PM
According to Alf she weighed 28kg! 28lb more like but still a fair to weight to lift at arms length. See guides on manual handling.
As I understood it and from the photos there is an internal central locking CDA on the window that cannot be overridden from outside. So the window must have been left open.
No, I said I was under the impression it had been decided by forumistas that she was 28kg but I did concede I may have been mistaken, please get it right.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 10, 2015, 08:38:35 PM
According to Alf she weighed 28kg! 28lb more like but still a fair to weight to lift at arms length. See guides on manual handling.
As I understood it and from the photos there is an internal central locking CDA on the window that cannot be overridden from outside. So the window must have been left open.
I wonder if Mrs Fenn's window was also unlocked when she was intruded upon?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 09:41:34 PM
Indeed, Being possible doesn't mean that something actually happened.
If those shutters weren't touched by anybody the investigators may have found they weren't marked on the outside and therefore were raised from the inside. But the crime scene was compromised so we don't know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 10, 2015, 10:04:58 PM
According to Alf she weighed 28kg! 28lb more like but still a fair to weight to lift at arms length. See guides on manual handling.
As I understood it and from the photos there is an internal central locking CDA on the window that cannot be overridden from outside. So the window must have been left open.
Height would also have been a difficulty. You can't lift a child and angle her through a window like Heri angled his pillow. The child's legs would dangle and scrape on the window ledge, wouldn't they?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 10, 2015, 10:48:04 PM
Height would also have been a difficulty. You can't lift a child and angle her through a window like Heri angled his pillow. The child's legs would dangle and scrape on the window ledge, wouldn't they?
Of course that didn't happen. Look at the child's bed. If she was in it she was carefully lifted from it. You go away from danger in that dark scary room not towards it. That window is very narrow and wouldn't be so easy to get through - definitely not with a child unless you passed her to an accomplice. You would have to be crazy to open those noisy shutters if you didn't enter that way. The front recessed door is the safer exit. No need to naff about!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 10, 2015, 11:26:30 PM
No, I said I was under the impression it had been decided by forumistas that she was 28kg but I did concede I may have been mistaken, please get it right.
No comment on the substance of my post then?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 10, 2015, 11:53:12 PM
As you often pluck a short phrase or word from others' posts to extemporize on in your inimitably pedantic fashion, I think you've got some cheek asking that question. I commented only to correct the false impression you gave regarding what I had said earlier.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 11, 2015, 11:08:37 PM
Of course that didn't happen. Look at the child's bed. If she was in it she was carefully lifted from it. You go away from danger in that dark scary room not towards it. That window is very narrow and wouldn't be so easy to get through - definitely not with a child unless you passed her to an accomplice. You would have to be crazy to open those noisy shutters if you didn't enter that way. The front recessed door is the safer exit. No need to naff about!
"You would have to be crazy to open those noisy shutters if you didn't enter that way."
I'm adding 2 words to that "You would have to be crazy to open those noisy shutters if you didn't intend to enter that way."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 11, 2015, 11:21:24 PM
Why?People have said you hear that noise all the time, so not a suspect noise at all unless you are talking about something else
In a town where every window and patio door had shutters it would be unlikely that anyone would take any notice of the noise ... it would be the equivalent of a car door closing where I live, it would be unusual to bother with it or even look out to see.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 11, 2015, 11:57:03 PM
And it couldn't be Madeleine who do it but she's gone.
IMO someone opened the shutter from outside because he intended to enter that way. An intended action is not necessarily completed Pathfinder. What if immediately after opening the shutter he was suddenly disturbed by another person a few metres away? Obviously he would then abandon his intended action of climbing in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 12:00:25 AM
IMO someone opened the shutter from outside because he intended to enter that way. An intended action is not necessarily completed Pathfinder. What if immediately after opening the shutter the person was disturbed by another person a few metres away? Obviously he would then abandon his intended action of climbing in.
Would an opportunist intruder lift a shutter knowing that the window behind it could be locked?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 12:04:57 AM
Would an opportunist intruder lift a shutter knowing that the window behind it could be locked?
Yes. The important word is "could". Could be locked, could be unlocked, only takes about two seconds to find out. Raise the shutter 100mm, try the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 12:17:31 AM
Yes. The important word is "could". Could be locked, could be unlocked, only takes about two seconds to find out. Raise the shutter 100mm, try the window.
no evidence at all the McCann kids bedroom window was left open To be able to be slid open so theory is just a speculative theory
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 12:19:20 AM
no evidence at all the McCann kids bedroom window was left open To be able to be slid open so theory is just a speculative theory
Not "left open". We know it wasn't left open. It was fully closed, but IMO it was not locked. There are strong indications in witness statements that this window was possibly not locked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2015, 12:29:33 AM
IMO someone opened the shutter from outside because he intended to enter that way. An intended action is not necessarily completed Pathfinder. What if immediately after opening the shutter he was suddenly disturbed by another person a few metres away? Obviously he would then abandon his intended action of climbing in.
So why was no evidence found on the window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 12:34:18 AM
Not "left open". We know it wasn't left open. It was fully closed, but IMO it was not locked. There are strong indications in witness statements that this window was possibly not locked.
closed and closed and locked and closed and locked with key are three different things...no one has any idea in which position those windows were in so yes speculation IMO....I dint think it's furthering anything to assume ...pity the witnesseses weren't exact as possible
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 12:45:52 AM
closed and closed and locked and closed and locked with key are three different things...no one has any idea in which position those windows were in so yes speculation IMO....I dint think it's furthering anything to assume ...pity the witnesseses weren't exact as possible
The witnesses were as exact as possible. They stated that the window was in the fully closed position, and they stated they did not know whether the lock button was pressed or not.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 12:57:31 AM
The witnesses were as exact as possible. They stated that the window was in the fully closed position, and they stated they did not know whether the lock button was pressed or not.
If you can make head or tail of this, it appears a cleaner did clean the inside of the bedroom window of 5a approx. 1 week before the McCanns arrived - probably on changeover day. If the McCanns did not touch the window during their stay, then clearly the cleaner did not ensure that the window was locked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2015, 01:14:40 AM
If you can make head or tail of this, it appears a cleaner did clean the inside of the bedroom window of 5a approx. 1 week before the McCanns arrived - probably on changeover day. If the McCanns did not touch the window during their stay, then clearly the cleaner did not ensure that the window was locked.
A cleaner was in the apartment on WED 2 MAY 2007. SY only have to ask her if she cleaned the window and was it locked. If it was locked nobody opened it from the outside and with no evidence found on it that fits.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 01:20:58 AM
The witnesses were as exact as possible. They stated that the window was in the fully closed position, and they stated they did not know whether the lock button was pressed or not.
Yes but that's not good enough to just assume
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 01:25:52 AM
If you can make head or tail of this, it appears a cleaner did clean the inside of the bedroom window of 5a approx. 1 week before the McCanns arrived - probably on changeover day. If the McCanns did not touch the window during their stay, then clearly the cleaner did not ensure that the window was locked.
Assumptions and illogical thoughts again that the window was not locked to because it was cleaned? And it was cleaned therefore the Mccanns didn't touch it? Sheesh, that's me for today, had enough of rubbish
Ps you WILL let me know how you know Tannerman/crècheman details lay for five years in the shelved enquiry as per my previous unanswered request won't you
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 01:42:10 AM
A cleaner was in the apartment on WED 2 MAY 2007. SY only have to ask her if she cleaned the window and was it locked. If it was locked nobody opened it from the outside and with no evidence found on it that fits.
http://mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_CLEANER.htm
Maria Julia S. da Silva.
*snipped*
Upon being asked, she states that she is a cleaner and has been working as such for around 13 years with the company 'THE OCEAN CLUB'. Her two daughters, FM and DI work with her in the same department.
Regarding her job, she points out that she is the person who is responsible for cleaning Block 5, more specifically apartments A, B, C, D, H, I, K, L, M and P, and also states that when the child disappeared only apartments A, B, D, G, H and K were occupied. She declares that she is the only employee who cleans these apartments, and has help when new customers arrive or leave. When preparing apartment A, where the Mc Cann family were to be installed, she says that she carried out the preparations with the help of her colleague DNA, on Saturday the 28th. She remembers that when preparing this apartment, she had just been notified that the apartment was to be occupied by 5 (five) people; she was unaware of children in the group. However, at the exact moment when she and her colleague DTNA were preparing the room, personnel from the company MARK WARNER entered the apartment and proceeded to place two children's beds. It was at this moment that they learned that children would be sleeping in the apartment.
Assisted on the Saturday in 5a by, but not mentioned specifically by:-
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DINA_ROCHA.htm
Witness statement of Dina Maria dos Reis Rocha 2007.05.07
Witness statement
Dina Maria Dos Reis Rocha Date/Time: 2007/05/07 13H00 Cleaner Portuguese
; She has worked at the Ocean Club for 16 years, exercising cleaning functions since this date. . That this function is concentrated solely upon cleaning the apartments and living areas of the Ocean Club resort; . That she normally begins work at around 10H00, and at about 13H00 goes to lunch at her residence and returns at around 14H00, terminating her work day at 18H00; . That in the beginning of her work day, she is given cleaning duties by Mrs. Marina Castela, who verifies the presence of the employees and distributes the keys for the respective areas of work; . That during the week, from Monday to Friday, she carries out cleaning in the Ocean Club resort - Waterside Village, situated close to the beach zone, but more concretely, in Blocks No. 21, 22, and 24; . That this cleaning is done only by the deponent, and only on Mondays, Wednesdays and Fridays; . That on Thursdays and Saturdays and upon the check-out of clients and the eventual check-in of new ones, and for this reason, the cleaning of vacated apartments is done. In this situation, she cleans the blocks already mentioned or, when there is no cleaning to do in that area, she goes to help other colleagues in the cleaning of the apartments and living areas;
Two very experienced cleaners who would no doubt have been fully aware of the need to ensure that the properties should be properly secured upon completion of preparation/cleaning.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 01:45:34 AM
Assumptions and illogical thoughts again that the window was not locked to because it was cleaned? And it was cleaned therefore the Mccanns didn't touch it? Sheesh, that's me for today, had enough of rubbish
Ps you WILL let me know how you know Tannerman/crècheman details lay for five years in the shelved enquiry as per my previous unanswered request won't you
The child "Tannerman" was carrying had been in the crèche. I'm sure you can work the rest out yourself.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 01:55:46 AM
The child "Tannerman" was carrying had been in the crèche. I'm sure you can work the rest out yourself.
if I could I wouldn't be asking you ...the specific questions I did and which you are skirting...who was sitting on the info for five years??? Look forward to reading about it in the morn..or later...seeing as you are major criticiser of the PJ let's see your evidence that the PJ were sitting on crècheman...it doesn't make any sense at all IMO,...unless i got your post wrong of course and you were saying someone else was SITTING on evidence and doing nothing about it! IE the Leicester a police who have been known to NOT forward information????
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 01:58:49 AM
if I could I wouldn't be asking you ...the specific questions I did and which you are skirting...who was sitting on the info for five years??? Look forward to reading about it in the morn..or later...seeing as you are major criticiser of the PJ let's see your evidence that the PJ were sitting in crècheman...it doesn't make any sense at all IMO,...unless i got your post wrong of course and you were saying someone else was SITTING on evidence and doing nothing about it!
The child was in the crèche that night, the PJ had the crèche records so they knew which parents had collected their children at which times....it's not rocket science to see that they either ignored or failed to follow up details of someone who was walking around OC pathways with a child around the time Tannerman was seen.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 02:18:29 AM
closed and closed and locked and closed and locked with key are three different things...no one has any idea in which position those windows were in so yes speculation IMO....I dint think it's furthering anything to assume ...pity the witnesseses weren't exact as possible
Presactly!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 12:38:58 PM
Why is it 'very possible' as opposed to 'possible?
Because if the shutter is closed people think the opening is secure and there is no need to check that the window lock button is pressed. I am not making this up - you can read exactly this psychology in FP rog. And in RO rog. Cleaners would be affected by the same psychology - they are cleaners - their job is not to solve a burglary opening method (which most people here haven't solved after 8 years). 'If the shutter is down no-one can get in' - that how the tourist or cleaner sees it.
Further proof is in 5H Shortly after the child disappeared, checking of windows at 5H revealed the surprising fact some of the windows were not locked. DW rog.
5A has the same design windows as 5H, and the same psychology, therefore it is very possible that one or more of the windows at 5A was not locked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 12, 2015, 03:50:37 PM
Because if the shutter is closed people think the opening is secure and there is no need to check that the window lock button is pressed. I am not making this up - you can read exactly this psychology in FP rog. And in RO rog. Cleaners would be affected by the same psychology - they are cleaners - their job is not to solve a burglary opening method (which most people here haven't solved after 8 years). 'If the shutter is down no-one can get in' - that how the tourist or cleaner sees it.
Further proof is in 5H Shortly after the child disappeared, checking of windows at 5H revealed the surprising fact some of the windows were not locked. DW rog.
5A has the same design windows as 5H, and the same psychology, therefore it is very possible that one or more of the windows at 5A was not locked.
Very concise explanation if I may say so.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 04:04:53 PM
Thanks Brietta. The whole first room can be solved from these 3 basic facts IMO The shutter had no lock. No-one had checked whether the window was locked. it looked like everyone was out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 04:10:07 PM
Thanks Brietta. The whole first room can be solved from these 3 basic facts IMO The shutter had no lock. No-one had checked whether the window was locked. it looked like everyone was out.
Meanwhile not one jot of independent verification that the shutters or window were open prior to the arrival of kate mccanns, whose fingerprints still remain the only ones identified.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 04:17:20 PM
Meanwhile not one jot of independent verification that the shutters or window were open prior to the arrival of kate mccanns, whose fingerprints still remain the only ones identified.
and no evidence that they were not open
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 12, 2015, 04:21:09 PM
Stalemate, you might say.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 04:22:45 PM
Prints were due to placing left hand for support while leaning to look out the already open window.
That is not proof the window was opened by anyone else.
There were also I believe other partial, unidentified prints.
Can you also explain why the prints identified could not be used to open a window.
Also, of course the apartment was accessible through an unlocked entrance. There would be no need for the windows, and there would be disturbance under the windows including scuff marks.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 12, 2015, 05:31:07 PM
That is not proof the window was opened by anyone else.
There were also I believe other partial, unidentified prints.
Can you also explain why the prints identified could not be used to open a window.
Also, of course the apartment was accessible through an unlocked entrance. There would be no need for the windows, and there would be disturbance under the windows including scuff marks.
The prints identified as KM were on glass Stephen. There were various other marks on window and on shutter, not identifiable.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 06:07:50 PM
IMO the person who opened shutter and window from outside would touch these places with thin gloves on 1. the two "stops" which stick out near bottom of outside of shutter 2. underside of shutter 3. exterior surface of glass or frame of the east sliding half of the window 4. shutter operating strap Obviously after 4 the person gets disturbed which is why there are no scuff marks of climbing in
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 06:32:27 PM
IMO the person who opened shutter and window from outside would touch these places with thin gloves on 1. the two "stops" which stick out near bottom of outside of shutter 2. underside of shutter 3. exterior surface of glass or frame of the east sliding half of the window 4. shutter operating strap Obviously after 4 the person gets disturbed which is why there are no scuff marks of climbing in
Unfortunately it has not been established someone opened the window or shutter from outside.
and again access to the apartment could be made through the unlocked door, as anyone coming to the apartment could have checked.
Especially if the apartment was monitored.
A burglar might enter through a window, but then of course, other than Madeleine 'disappearing', nothing was taken from the apartment.
Scuff marks would be inevitable with one person carrying a child. So why not use the door ???
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2015, 06:54:29 PM
Unfortunately it has not been established someone opened the window or shutter from outside.
and again access to the apartment could be made through the unlocked door, as anyone coming to the apartment could have checked.
Especially if the apartment was monitored.
A burglar might enter through a window, but then of course, other than Madeleine 'disappearing', nothing was taken from the apartment.
Scuff marks would be inevitable with one person carrying a child. So why not use the door ???
Were there scuff marks on Mrs Fenn's window ... as far as I know she didn't have green lichen on the sill either. If you recall the lichen used to be the impediment to entry via the window ... now it is scuff marks. Oh well' variety is the spice of life.
When did it become de rigueur that the abductor had to leave the premises via the window while carrying the child?
I've not seen anyone claiming that. Possibly being passed through ... possibly the child lifted through. Who apart from you has made such a claim?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 12, 2015, 08:37:03 PM
Were there scuff marks on Mrs Fenn's window ... as far as I know she didn't have green lichen on the sill either. If you recall the lichen used to be the impediment to entry via the window ... now it is scuff marks. Oh well' variety is the spice of life.
When did it become de rigueur that the abductor had to leave the premises via the window while carrying the child?
I've not seen anyone claiming that. Possibly being passed through ... possibly the child lifted through. Who apart from you has made such a claim?
You can Believe in abduction and Madeleine returning from nowhere.
Me, I live in the real world.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2015, 09:02:52 PM
Why open a window using two fingers on the glass ... when there is a perfectly serviceable handle to use?
You would use your left thumb to press the button on the window handle to open it from the inside. So other left hand fingers could touch the glass when opening it. The two top fingers closest to your thumb if you do a quick test. You don't support yourself using only two fingers as Pegasus claimed. That is an inconsistency and I investigate those to find answers! It would help to see the actual location of the fingerprints on the window but Amaral was not happy with the lack of photo evidence taken on the night and I concur.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 10:11:44 PM
Why is everyone working on the premise that there was only one person involved? I can think of nothing less suspicious than a couple carrying "their" sleeping child upstairs to 5J.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 10:34:15 PM
You would use your left thumb to press the button on the window handle to open it from the inside. So other left hand fingers could touch the glass when opening it. The two top fingers closest to your thumb if you do a quick test. You don't support yourself using only two fingers as Pegasus claimed. That is an inconsistency and I investigate those to find answers! It would help to see the actual location of the fingerprints on the window but Amaral was not happy with the lack of photo evidence taken on the night and I concur.
Assuming the window is closed and the lock button is in and you want to open it from inside, you would IMO wrap all 4 left fingers under the handle and with the left thumb press the unlock button, then using the handle slide that half of the window left. I don't think any fingers would touch the glass.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 10:38:46 PM
The child was in the crèche that night, the PJ had the crèche records so they knew which parents had collected their children at which times....it's not rocket science to see that they either ignored or failed to follow up details of someone who was walking around OC pathways with a child around the time Tannerman was seen.
The PJ were possibly remiss in not checking creche night files for Tannerman....even though he was going in the wrong direction ,in any case questionnaires completed by tourists for the Leicester police showed Crecheman was there at the time and he came forward, and this info it seems was not passed to the PJ...and even he was going in the wrong direction,,,,as for Smithman, the PJ would have had no reason to check this sighting against creche night records as it wasn't reported for about two weeks, by which time said records may not have existed any more...or many other events took over....we don't know....the PJ were quite meticulous in detailing what they did, I have never seen a night creche record in the files..
Assuming the window is closed and the lock button is in and you want to open it from inside, you would IMO wrap all 4 left fingers under the handle and with the left thumb press the unlock button, then using the handle slide that half of the window left. I don't think any fingers would touch the glass.
There is evidence of fingers on the glass. You don't lean on the glass with your hand using only two fingers to look out. That is an inconsistency and there's nothing in the statement to suggest that happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 10:59:30 PM
If the window is closed and locked, here is how to open it from inside http://youtu.be/nTNXowdzksI?t=8m52s 8:54 hold handle with left hand and press the lower (unlock) button with left thumb. 8:57 slide that half of the window open. No fingers touch the glass.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:05:23 PM
Shame there is no record of fingerprints being dusted for on the outside of the window pane.......??
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 11:20:33 PM
If the window is closed and locked, here is how to open it from inside http://youtu.be/nTNXowdzksI?t=8m52s 8:54 hold handle with left hand and press the lower (unlock) button with left thumb. 8:57 slide that half of the window open. No fingers touch the glass.
But it was dark in that room not light like in the video 8(>((
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:26:23 PM
Brief footage of forensics dusting outside of glass 4th May http://youtu.be/4nvAUpgD1Qs?t=3m14s
Thanks!Pegasus, you're a treasure, so there was. I was going on someone else here saying it was never done or maybe they meant it wasn't in the files, Nothing it seems in the files, that anyone has found, so what does that mean? And what does it mean to someone opening from outside if it is said even glove marks would show?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 11:34:58 PM
Thanks!Pegasus, you're a treasure, so there was. I was going on someone else here saying it was never done or maybe they meant it wasn't in the files, Nothing it seems in the files, that anyone has found, so what does that mean? And what does it mean to someone opening from outside if it is said even glove marks would show?
There are plenty of marks on the shutter and window, and almost all of them are unidentifiable. There are marks around the "stops" consistent with using them to raise shutter slightly from outside. There are marks at the bottom outside of the shutter consistent with holding it up at that slightly open position while reaching through to slide window open and operate strap.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:38:42 PM
There are plenty of marks on the shutter and window, and almost all of them are unidentifiable. There are marks around the "stops" consistent with using them to raise shutter slightly from outside. There are marks at the bottom outside of the shutter consistent with holding it up at that slightly open position while reaching through to slide window open and operate strap.
There are plenty of marks on the window and almost all are unidentifiable? Where did you read that? I know about unidentifiable prints in the outside of the shutter but these need not be suspect per se as the tapas group handled them
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 11:43:59 PM
But it was dark in that room not light like in the video 8(>((
I gave you the footage showing how the window would be opened from inside, light or dark makes no difference, no fingers would touch the glass. IMO it wasn't opened from inside - it was opened from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 12, 2015, 11:45:08 PM
Thanks!Pegasus, you're a treasure, so there was. I was going on someone else here saying it was never done or maybe they meant it wasn't in the files, Nothing it seems in the files, that anyone has found, so what does that mean? And what does it mean to someone opening from outside if it is said even glove marks would show?
No glove marks or anything found. There was no evidence of anybody passing through the window or any evidence on the window exterior which there should be to open it. The only credible conclusion is that it was opened from the inside. In the dark there is a higher possibility of leaving careless evidence if you are in a panic.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 12, 2015, 11:50:48 PM
No glove marks or anything found. There was no evidence of anybody passing through the window or any evidence on the window exterior which there should be to open it. The only credible conclusion is that it was opened from the inside. In the dark there is a higher possibility of leaving careless evidence if you are in a panic.
that's a very good point actually. I don't have a problem with hypotheses as long as they are based on documented evidence and facts
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 12, 2015, 11:55:29 PM
There are plenty of marks on the window and almost all are unidentifiable? Where did you read that? I know about unidentifiable prints in the outside of the shutter but these need not be suspect per se as the tapas group handled them
IMO some of the marks on outside of shutter (at the "stops" and along the bottom) are hand marks of GM and DW, but not all of them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 12, 2015, 11:59:33 PM
After the shutter had been lifted from the outside & the window slid open, the next obstacle was the net curtain. Was the intruder interrupted before he could move the net for easier access?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 12:00:34 AM
No glove marks or anything found. There was no evidence of anybody passing through the window or any evidence on the window exterior which there should be to open it. The only credible conclusion is that it was opened from the inside. In the dark there is a higher possibility of leaving careless evidence if you are in a panic.
No-one went in or out the window Pathfinder, someone just reached in with one arm to operate the strap IMO. BTW I thought your theory is that the window never moved?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 12:01:44 AM
No glove marks or anything found. There was no evidence of anybody passing through the window or any evidence on the window exterior which there should be to open it. The only credible conclusion is that it was opened from the inside. In the dark there is a higher possibility of leaving careless evidence if you are in a panic.
Who is to say the person who opened the window whether from within or without was in a panic at the time ... an adrenalin rush is one thing panic another for a person whose sideline is home invasion.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 12:07:45 AM
Who is to say the person who opened the window whether from within or without was in a panic at the time ... an adrenalin rush is one thing panic another for a person whose sideline is home invasion.
I know you are addressing PF but you cannot possible compare a burglary to steal money or goods with child abduction...YES, abducting a child would be a severe panic situation not a bloody breeze! like regular burglaries, least of all because of different variables not to mention the penalty if caught! honestly you say the silliest of things sometimes
PF over to you, sorry for the but in Lol
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 12:10:34 AM
After the shutter had been lifted from the outside & the window slid open, the next obstacle was the net curtain. Was the intruder interrupted before he could move the net for easier access?
Lift shutter from outside by 10cm-20cm, slide window open, reach in with one arm (past side of nets and curtains) to operate strap and raise shutter fully. And then the person gets interrupted
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2015, 12:18:28 AM
IMO some of the marks on outside of shutter (at the "stops" and along the bottom) are hand marks of GM and DW, but not all of them.
Do you think a burglar wouldn't wear gloves? If you do I strongly disagree. You follow evidence but definitely not tampering of evidence.
"No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor." (TOTL)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 12:19:36 AM
Who is to say the person who opened the window whether from within or without was in a panic at the time ... an adrenalin rush is one thing panic another for a person whose sideline is home invasion.
A petty burglar would be accurate and concentrating when opening shutter and window from outside, and would only panic when after doing that, suddenly was disturbed by another person.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 12:25:03 AM
Do you think a burglar wouldn't wear gloves? If you do I strongly disagree. You follow evidence but definitely not tampering of evidence.
"No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor." (TOTL)
I am guessing that most burglars wear gloves. Gloves won't leave grease (prints) but will just smear any older prints. I don't agree that there were no glove marks.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2015, 12:25:34 AM
I know you are addressing PF but you cannot possible compare a burglary to steal money or goods with child abduction...YES, abducting a child would be a severe panic situation not a bloody breeze! like regular burglaries, least of all because of different variables not to mention the penalty if caught! honestly you say the silliest of things sometimes
PF over to you, sorry for the but in Lol
Agreed and well said. Luckily SY live in the real crime world and not a fantasy one.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 12:33:05 AM
Do you think a burglar wouldn't wear gloves? If you do I strongly disagree. You follow evidence but definitely not tampering of evidence.
"No prints are lifted that are likely to belong to an unknown person, nor the slightest trace of gloves which could have been worn by a hypothetical abductor." (TOTL)
If the window & shutter hadn't been found in an open position, why do you suppose Gerry would test whether or not the shutters could be opened from the outside?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2015, 12:37:57 AM
If the window & shutter hadn't been found in an open position, why do you suppose Gerry would test whether or not the shutters could be opened from the outside?
Who saw him?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 13, 2015, 12:41:14 AM
I know you are addressing PF but you cannot possible compare a burglary to steal money or goods with child abduction...YES, abducting a child would be a severe panic situation not a bloody breeze! like regular burglaries, least of all because of different variables not to mention the penalty if caught! honestly you say the silliest of things sometimes
PF over to you, sorry for the but in Lol
Feel free to butt in if it is a constructive manner, the more the merrier ... PF and I are not conducting an exclusive conversation although we usually manage to remain polite about it.
I have read enough about child abduction and child abductors to know there is no set pattern to the offence or to the offender ... but it takes a particular type of person to enter an occupied household and make off with one of the most precious things in it and for the most part I think "panic" is not one of the prime emotions felt by the abductor.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 12:59:57 AM
Yea ok Brietta I believe you as much as I believe in Santa or the Easter Bunny
DO have a good night now
&8#£%
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2015, 01:01:17 AM
Agreed and well said. Luckily SY live in the real crime world and not a fantasy one.
Thanks for letting me down PF ... I should probably amend my post commending your politeness in debate. Oh well, you win some and you lose some ... wonder which one of us has lost more here.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 13, 2015, 01:04:26 AM
Why did the others check if the windows in their apartment were locked or unlocked?
Because obviously they became much more window-security-conscious immediately after the disappearance which was connected with a window being opened. See the rogs, DW is a good one to start with.
They were also actively trying to work out what had happened in 5A - and in this they were considering whether the window at 5A had been unlocked - I can prove this in a rog.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 01:55:59 AM
I was asking about the mostly unidentifiable prints you mentioned on the window as I've never before come across anything saying this
To open the fully closed but unlocked window from outside requires only a gentle push because it slides so easily, and IMO this would leave only a small mark on the outside of the window or possibly no mark if gloved.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 13, 2015, 10:52:59 AM
To open the fully closed but unlocked window from outside requires only a gentle push because it slides so easily, and IMO this would leave only a small mark on the outside of the window or possibly no mark if gloved.
No glove marks were found. You're not going to find anything that doesn't exist however long you look at it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 13, 2015, 11:57:25 AM
No glove marks were found. You're not going to find anything that doesn't exist however long you look at it.
Good Morning Pathy,
I thought the 'supporters' had moved on from this form of entry for an abduction due to the fact it was proved it was impossible to get in and out of that window carrying a 3 year old child, without leaving ANY marks.
So the next scenario would be- the joint was cased by burglars- how did they miss the unlocked doors when casing the joint? AND why not use the door- more effective.
The Burglars wanting to steal money and movable/ easy to 'fence' goods would know when casing the joint that the best option would be to enter a child's bedroom- who were known to wake and cry.
And low and behold ditches the money and movable goods idea, and steals a child instead?
what? Hahahahahaha
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 06:17:17 PM
I thought the 'supporters' had moved on from this form of entry for an abduction due to the fact it was proved it was impossible to get in and out of that window carrying a 3 year old child, without leaving ANY marks.
So the next scenario would be- the joint was cased by burglars- how did they miss the unlocked doors when casing the joint? AND why not use the door- more effective.
The Burglars wanting to steal money and movable/ easy to 'fence' goods would know when casing the joint that the best option would be to enter a child's bedroom- who were known to wake and cry.
And low and behold ditches the money and movable goods idea, and steals a child instead?
what? Hahahahahaha
I think you're overestimating the amount of casing for a quick burglary that will probably if lucky make 50 euros. It looked like everyone was out (that is the most important point to realise, and the only casing needed). Test the only reachable window (two seconds) and if it's not locked reach in and pull strap, climb in, grab any cash jewellery cameras, out the front door, probably two minutes total or less.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 13, 2015, 07:20:28 PM
I think you're overestimating the amount of casing for a quick burglary that will probably if lucky make 50 euros. It looked like everyone was out (that is the most important point to realise, and the only casing needed). Test the only reachable window (two seconds) and if it's not locked reach in and pull strap, climb in, grab any cash jewellery cameras, out the front door, probably two minutes total or less.
Except they didn't.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 13, 2015, 10:19:25 PM
To open the fully closed but unlocked window from outside requires only a gentle push because it slides so easily, and IMO this would leave only a small mark on the outside of the window or possibly no mark if gloved.
While that may be true, I was questioning this part of a post you made
There are plenty of marks on the shutter and window, and almost all of them are unidentifiable.
As far as I know there were no unidentified prints on the window....or at least mention of any in the files, that's all, let alone "plenty"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 10:48:30 PM
Yes there were lots of unidentified marks on the window. For example around the handle. Do you need to see a photo?
No, if you say there is a photo I trust there is
8)--))
It was my mistake anyway assuming that by marks you meant prints, sorry about that...even though it doesn't necessarily mean an intruder made those marks any more than a stray pidgeon or flying piece of gravel eg
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 13, 2015, 11:45:38 PM
It was my mistake anyway assuming that by marks you meant prints, sorry about that...even though it doesn't necessarily mean an intruder made those marks any more than a stray pidgeon or flying piece of gravel eg
Yes lots of marks (fingermarks, handmarks, whatever) on this window and shutter, but only 5 were identifiable to an individual, and these were of 2 left fingers on glass. Obviously any repeat petty burglar will wear gloves, so forensics on an opened window and shutter at an interrupted burglary scene will almost certainly produce no prints of the petty burglar, but probably some prints of occupant(s). KM's prints are from leaning to look out the window IMO, not from opening it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2015, 12:14:23 AM
Yes lots of marks (fingermarks, handmarks, whatever) on this window and shutter, but only 5 were identifiable to an individual, and these were of 2 left fingers on glass. Obviously any repeat petty burglar will wear gloves, so forensics on an opened window and shutter at an interrupted burglary scene will almost certainly produce no prints of the petty burglar, but probably some prints of occupant(s). KM's prints are from leaning to look out the window IMO, not from opening it.
Cite for other prints or glove marks on window please?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2015, 12:25:28 AM
Cite for other prints or glove marks on window please?
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/5A_FORENSIC_4_5_7.htm top right photo - unidentified marks near handle top left photo - more unidentified marks below handle ETA also marks on glass
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2015, 12:47:24 AM
Marks around the shutter left stop. The two stops probably provide a good way to start raising shutter from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 14, 2015, 01:47:17 AM
Yes lots of marks (fingermarks, handmarks, whatever) on this window and shutter, but only 5 were identifiable to an individual, and these were of 2 left fingers on glass. Obviously any repeat petty burglar will wear gloves, so forensics on an opened window and shutter at an interrupted burglary scene will almost certainly produce no prints of the petty burglar, but probably some prints of occupant(s). KM's prints are from leaning to look out the window IMO, not from opening it.
lots of marks in themselves can't be evidence of an intruder...anyone or anything can cause a mark
Unless it is known the outside of the window and shutters were clean of all marks directly previously to 3 May And the police files make no mention of prints partial or otherwise on the outside of the window which is the important bit
The three unidentified prints on the outside of the shutters (and any other marks you mention) are perfectly explained by three of the tapas group fiddling with the evidence that night. Bye for now
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 14, 2015, 08:58:27 AM
lots of marks in themselves can't be evidence of an intruder...anyone or anything can cause a mark
Unless it is known the outside of the window and shutters were clean of all marks directly previously to 3 May And the police files make no mention of prints partial or otherwise on the outside of the window which is the important bit
The three unidentified prints on the outside of the shutters (and any other marks you mention) are perfectly explained by three of the tapas group fiddling with the evidence that night. Bye for now
Had the fingerprints been left by anyone from the McCann party or any one who was known to have been in the vicinity of the apartment after the alarm was raised ... they would have been identified as such ... for the simple reason prints and DNA samples had been taken for elimination purposes from all of them.
One then has to wonder why there were any foreign prints there at all. Why would anyone touch the exterior of the shutters when the normal means of opening them was from the inside?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 14, 2015, 09:45:51 AM
Had the fingerprints been left by anyone from the McCann party or any one who was known to have been in the vicinity of the apartment after the alarm was raised ... they would have been identified as such ... for the simple reason prints and DNA samples had been taken for elimination purposes from all of them.
One then has to wonder why there were any foreign prints there at all. Why would anyone touch the exterior of the shutters when the normal means of opening them was from the inside?
Shutter installers and maintenance people for starters and then maybe cleaners.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 14, 2015, 10:00:50 AM
That wasn't the question you asked, but never mind. Some of these people could have been transitory workers and not readily traceable.
Perhaps, but if that were so I am sure the police would have pulled out all the stops to have them traced ... and although I believe Portugal had no national database up and running at the time, I believe there is reference in the files that they did check with those who had that advantage.
They had unidentified prints at a crime scene ... do you think they would have been remiss in trying to identify whose they were?
There would be a record that gardeners ... transitory workers ... plumbers etc carrying out work for apartments which the company managed on behalf of the owners would be easily traced ... and if not, why not? Similarly, work commissioned by the owner would be known about.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 14, 2015, 10:45:25 AM
Actually I'm not disputing any of what you say, I was merely answering your original question. How they went about investigating the prints is an entirely different issue.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2015, 10:49:45 AM
Actually I'm not disputing any of what you say, I was merely answering your original question. How they went about investigating the prints is an entirely different issue.
Your answer was one which would have been checked out by the investigators at the time ... transients, cleaners etc ... which is what I was saying about what I know of the follow up and the search with other law enforcement agencies for matches. None of which were forthcoming. I don't know if previous occupants were asked about touching the outside of the shutters at any time.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 14, 2015, 12:19:12 PM
Fingerprints at the apartment: 6 marks were of type and quality adequate to attempt identification, and all 6 were successfully identified (named). All the other marks sampled were of wrong type or insufficient quality to attempt identification.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 15, 2015, 12:32:22 AM
Had the fingerprints been left by anyone from the McCann party or any one who was known to have been in the vicinity of the apartment after the alarm was raised ... they would have been identified as such ... for the simple reason prints and DNA samples had been taken for elimination purposes from all of them.
One then has to wonder why there were any foreign prints there at all. Why would anyone touch the exterior of the shutters when the normal means of opening them was from the inside?
No. the prints on the shutter were inadequate, meaning they were partial only, so were not able to be matched to any on file
In May 2007 absolutely no forensics or looking for child hand marks were done on the lounge window.
Too many marks from other hands for any discernible child palm prints? Why didn't Madeleine turn on any additional lights if she fled her bedroom after hearing the noise of the shutters?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2015, 02:11:26 AM
(snip)... Why didn't Madeleine turn on any additional lights if she fled her bedroom after hearing the noise of the shutters?
In that hypothetical situation, there was already a light on in lounge (and that would slightly illuminate other rooms)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 15, 2015, 10:42:04 PM
IMO turning a light on can be all ruled out for 4 reasons. There was aleady a table lamp on. If had turnedon the main light in lounge or south bedroom it would have been seen from tapas. Also it would be noticed by checker(s). And biggest reason of course it would be the opposite of instinctive flight behaviour.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 15, 2015, 11:56:11 PM
IMO turning a light on can be all ruled out for 4 reasons. There was aleady a table lamp on. If had turnedon the main light in lounge or south bedroom it would have been seen from tapas. Also it would be noticed by checker(s). And biggest reason of course it would be the opposite of instinctive flight behaviour.
Why do you consider turning on a light was the opposite of instinctive flight behaviour for a child who didn't like the dark?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2015, 12:19:57 AM
That actually may be a very good point Misty. Hiding certainly does nothing to protect anyone else. So what alternative action would be the best?
It is at that point the situation becomes unpredictable. Main instinct = find mum & dad. Mum & dad missing - then what? Go onto balcony & cry for help, leaving S&A inside? Definitely not go out the front door as that's where the danger is. No. I think she would have stayed in her bedroom & huddled down behind one of the cots until someone came to help.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2015, 02:00:52 AM
It is at that point the situation becomes unpredictable. Main instinct = find mum & dad. Mum & dad missing - then what? Go onto balcony & cry for help, leaving S&A inside? Definitely not go out the front door as that's where the danger is. No. I think she would have stayed in her bedroom & huddled down behind one of the cots until someone came to help.
I now agree that would be the main instinct. IMO we can't be sure exactly what method would chosen to do that - but all the methods start the same way - leaving the room IMO. Having left the room I think it it is against instinct to reverse that and return to it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 11:12:26 AM
It is at that point the situation becomes unpredictable. Main instinct = find mum & dad. Mum & dad missing - then what? Go onto balcony & cry for help, leaving S&A inside? Definitely not go out the front door as that's where the danger is. No. I think she would have stayed in her bedroom & huddled down behind one of the cots until someone came to help.
We know Madeleine is a feisty child ... it is possible that however terrified she was she may have got between her siblings and the window ...putting herself within range of an individual leaning in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 16, 2015, 12:00:00 PM
We know Madeleine is a feisty child ... it is possible that however terrified she was she may have got between her siblings and the window ...putting herself within range of an individual leaning in.
An abductor is leaning in? 10 foot arms is back @)(++(* Pamela Fenn could definitely hear Maddy on Tuesday. The same thing would've happened on the Thursday if that window was opened from the outside which it wasn't. Oh and Maddy was crying on the WED according to her parents and they think an abductor may have been in the apartment that night. The mind boggles at the pollacks (sea-bass don't fit)!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 16, 2015, 12:13:15 PM
An abductor is leaning in? 10 foot arms is back @)(++(* Pamela Fenn could definitely hear Maddy on Tuesday. The same thing would've happened on the Thursday if that window was opened from the outside which it wasn't. Oh and Maddy was crying on the WED according to her parents and they think an abductor may have been in the apartment that night. The mind boggles at the pollacks (sea-bass don't fit)!
He should have been found by now with hands that not just touch the ground, they drag along it. @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 12:45:17 PM
An abductor is leaning in? 10 foot arms is back @)(++(* Pamela Fenn could definitely hear Maddy on Tuesday. The same thing would've happened on the Thursday if that window was opened from the outside which it wasn't. Oh and Maddy was crying on the WED according to her parents and they think an abductor may have been in the apartment that night. The mind boggles at the pollacks (sea-bass don't fit)!
Not sure if Heri's arms are 10 foot or not ... but he didn't appear to have a problem.
I think you may have misread my post. I did not suggest Madeleine was in her bed at the other end of the room, so let me put it more simple terms ...
noise awakens a very sleepy little girl
alarmed or curious she exits her bed to investigate
she walks past her sleeping siblings in their cots ~ big sister 'protecting' them or maybe still just curious
while she stands in close proximity to the window ~ the person outside leans forward ~ and lifts her out
I don't know if this is how the events of that night unfolded but there is more evidence to support it than there is for the hypothesis she fell and killed herself.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2015, 12:55:24 PM
An abductor is leaning in? 10 foot arms is back @)(++(* Pamela Fenn could definitely hear Maddy on Tuesday. The same thing would've happened on the Thursday if that window was opened from the outside which it wasn't. Oh and Maddy was crying on the WED according to her parents and they think an abductor may have been in the apartment that night. The mind boggles at the pollacks (sea-bass don't fit)!
You have missed the essential clue that, completely contrary to what was transcribed in portuguese at PF interview, the crying she heard was actually on the 2nd IMO.
Back to the window, doesn't your theory claim the window never moved, the shutter never moved, the bedroom door never moved, and the child was never even in the child bedroom that evening ? But even though it doesn't happen in your theory, do you agree that it is physically possible (if the window lock button is not pressed in) to completely open the closed shutter and closed window from outside?
BTW anytime you feel your theory is floundering please do post some more witty fish puns I love them.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2015, 01:12:23 PM
We know Madeleine is a feisty child ... it is possible that however terrified she was she may have got between her siblings and the window ...putting herself within range of an individual leaning in.
IMO walking towards the window is instinctively impossible (and disproven anyway by the widened door position).
Why is there so much objection - from BOTH sides - to the elementary deduction that the child went on own feet from that bedroom to another room? It is not like a revolutionary never heard before strange behaviour is it? BTW there's an easy way to check the theory - because if it is what happened, we would expect to find in statements that the bedroom door became wider open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 01:30:21 PM
IMO walking towards the window is instinctively impossible (and disproven anyway by the widened door position).
Why is there so much objection - from BOTH sides - to the elementary deduction that the child went on own feet from that bedroom to another room? It is not like a revolutionary never heard before strange behaviour is it? BTW there's an easy way to check the theory - because if it is what happened, we would expect to find in statements that the bedroom door became wider open.
She was the 'big sister' ... I think her primary instinct would have been to protect her siblings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 16, 2015, 11:29:52 PM
And what would be the intelligent way to do that? Stand where you say? Or go get help from the next room?
She would have been groggy and sleepy ... and curious about the noise bearing in mind she probably hadn't heard the blind being raised before. Why would she have thought there was danger and she was in need of assistance? There is a probability she approached the window.
If she had run as you think she may ... why did she vanish?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 12:48:53 AM
IMO walking towards the window is instinctively impossible (and disproven anyway by the widened door position).
Why is there so much objection - from BOTH sides - to the elementary deduction that the child went on own feet from that bedroom to another room? It is not like a revolutionary never heard before strange behaviour is it? BTW there's an easy way to check the theory - because if it is what happened, we would expect to find in statements that the bedroom door became wider open.
yes, we have THREE statements saying the bedroom door was wide open when it shouldn't have been
GM, MO, and KM
Which one are you referring to as pointing to an exit out of the bedroom due to being disturbed by someone at the window?
If a burglar had opened the shutters and window before GM entered, wouldn't he have noticed the open shutter blowing curtains and drop in temperature? After he shut the door back to near closed, MO found it wide open again at 9.30pm and too didn't notice anything from the window.
Maybe the child woke up to go to the loo in the night and that might explain the first open door, so that would eliminate Tannerman as some abductor but you still have no open shutters and window at 9.30pm
KM's??
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 02:03:12 AM
yes, we have THREE statements saying the bedroom door was wide open when it shouldn't have been
GM, MO, and KM
Which one are you referring to as pointing to an exit out of the bedroom due to being disturbed by someone at the window?
If a burglar had opened the shutters and window before GM entered, wouldn't he have noticed the open shutter blowing curtains and drop in temperature? After he shut the door back to near closed, MO found it wide open again at 9.30pm and too didn't notice anything from the window.
Maybe the child woke up to go to the loo in the night and that might explain the first open door, so that would eliminate Tannerman as some abductor but you still have no open shutters and window at 9.30pm
KM's??
Assuming all 3 witness accounts are accurate, the bedroom door was opened by child twice (not three times) IMO. Once before GM check (child opens door and leaves bedroom then returns to bedroom, probably a simple toilet trip) Once after GM check but before MO check (child opens door and leaves bedroom but does not return to that bedroom).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2015, 08:11:58 AM
She would have been groggy and sleepy ... and curious about the noise bearing in mind she probably hadn't heard the blind being raised before. Why would she have thought there was danger and she was in need of assistance? There is a probability she approached the window.
If she had run as you think she may ... why did she vanish?
Were the curtains open as in early statements or closed and whooshed as in later ones? Was Madeleine on top of the covers because it was hot like Gerry said or under them because it was cold like Kate said?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2015, 08:16:15 AM
Assuming all 3 witness accounts are accurate, the bedroom door was opened by child twice (not three times) IMO. Once before GM check (child opens door and leaves bedroom then returns to bedroom, probably a simple toilet trip) Once after GM check but before MO check (child opens door and leaves bedroom but does not return to that bedroom).
@)(++(* The window was closed at 9:30 so why would she be in another room? Keep going round in circles chasing shadows and moving doors for the rest of your life. There was one position that door was definitely in and Emma Knight saw it in that same position when she arrived at 5A.
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
He recalls that the bedroom door was half open. (Matt Oldfield)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 11:20:02 AM
@)(++(* The window was closed at 9:30 so why would she be in another room? Keep going round in circles chasing shadows and moving doors for the rest of your life. There was one position that door was definitely in and Emma Knight saw it in that same position when she arrived at 5A.
I went to the McCann's apartment, entered by the patio doors and introduced myself to Kate and Mrs Payne. I entered the apartment living room and Kate and Mrs Payne stayed in the main bedroom, from where I could hear them both crying.
The twins were still asleep in the children's bedroom and the door was half open.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/EMMA-LOUISE.htm
He recalls that the bedroom door was half open. (Matt Oldfield)
The child bedroom door position when EK arrived is completely irrelevant IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 17, 2015, 11:44:07 AM
Assuming all 3 witness accounts are accurate, the bedroom door was opened by child twice (not three times) IMO. Once before GM check (child opens door and leaves bedroom then returns to bedroom, probably a simple toilet trip) Once after GM check but before MO check (child opens door and leaves bedroom but does not return to that bedroom).
Do you really believe that if Madeleine had gotten up to go to the toilet she would not have looked for her parents and, finding then gone and herself alone, would have meekly gone back to bed ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 11:49:05 AM
8.30 When adults depart the door is in slightly ajar position. ?.?? Child pulls door open, goes bathroom, returns to bedroom, leaving door open. 9.05 G sees door open, sees child in bed, closes door to slightly ajar position. ?.?? Child pulls door open, leaves bedroom, leaves door open, does not return to that bedroom 9.30 M sees door open, does not see child, does not close door 10.00 K sees door open, does not see child
Between 9.30 and 10.00 nothing happens, door does not move, no-one passes through door. K sees door in same position as M saw it. All hypothetical and IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 12:10:58 PM
Do you really believe that if Madeleine had gotten up to go to the toilet she would not have looked for her parents and, finding then gone and herself alone, would have meekly gone back to bed ?
Yes because this was 5th such date and an accustomed situation IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 12:25:17 PM
Here IMO is a hypothesis which explains the window the shutter the bedroom door and why child left that bedroom. After 9.05 check but before 9.30 check a petty thief thinks everyone is out and opens window and shutter from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 17, 2015, 12:31:34 PM
From the star chart at home we know that Madeleine had been weaned off getting up during the night to go into her parents bedroom.
From her question to Kate it is possible the conditioning had been very effective.
She asked why her mother hadn't come ... she did not ask "Where were you?"
OK let's assume you are right, that the star chart and other things prove that in normal circumstances the child definitely would never get out of bed and go into the parents' room.
But now look at the physical evidence honest witness KM discovered at 10pm in the child bedroom and you will notice that this was not normal circumstances, and it is obvious that something had happened which was highly unusual and was visible and audible from the bed, which would mean your "never wake up and go to parents' room" assumption, even if it is normally correct, would definitely and instantly cease to apply.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 17, 2015, 01:08:20 PM
We know that she left her bed and slept with her parents one night at least because they told us so.
Indeed G-Unit ! I can't imagine a child of three getting up during the night and not wanting to know where her parents were.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 02:49:41 PM
The hypothesis that, awoken by someone outside messing with shutter, the child very sensibly disappears from that bedroom into another room
1. GM check, sees child in bedroom, puts bedroom door in almost shut position. 2. Sometime in this interval, child opens door and goes to another room and does not return. 3. MO check, sees bedroom door is open, does not see child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 17, 2015, 09:20:46 PM
The hypothesis that, awoken by someone outside messing with shutter, the child very sensibly disappears from that bedroom into another room
1. GM check, sees child in bedroom, puts bedroom door in almost shut position. 2. Sometime in this interval, child opens door and goes to another room and does not return. 3. MO check, sees bedroom door is open, does not see child.
MO didn't see the child is correct and he didn't hear a sound. The child knew Matt - come on chase me and be a monster. Maddy was very loud according to everyone including Fenn on TUE but not on 3 May - not even a whisper!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 10:15:16 PM
(snip) ... Maddy was very loud according to everyone including Fenn on TUE but not on 3 May - not even a whisper!
A child hiding does not make a sound Pathfinder. I've already given you some past cases - home alone, attempted burglary, hiding, and guess what, no noise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 10:52:58 PM
Assuming all 3 witness accounts are accurate, the bedroom door was opened by child twice (not three times) IMO. Once before GM check (child opens door and leaves bedroom then returns to bedroom, probably a simple toilet trip) Once after GM check but before MO check (child opens door and leaves bedroom but does not return to that bedroom).
That doesn't seem to take into consideration that MO noticed nothing nothing connected to an open window and shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 10:58:31 PM
Were the curtains open as in early statements or closed and whooshed as in later ones? Was Madeleine on top of the covers because it was hot like Gerry said or under them because it was cold like Kate said?
No one seems to ever want to address this much
One PT police statement saying she found the curtains were open, one English statement stating she ran over to the window and opened the curtains and the TV appearances saying the curtains blew open themselves, the second version being the one that sticks out as the first and last can be deemed to be similar in effect
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 11:01:03 PM
From the star chart at home we know that Madeleine had been weaned off getting up during the night to go into her parents bedroom.
From her question to Kate it is possible the conditioning had been very effective.
She asked why her mother hadn't come ... she did not ask "Where were you?"
This is incorrect. KM has stated in TV interviews that Madeleine said "where were you when Sean and I cried"
Just for info.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 17, 2015, 11:02:51 PM
Can anyone clarify the position of the twins' cots, please? MO said he could see both twins breathing through the side mesh - so were they both placed parallel to the beds?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 11:06:59 PM
Like MO, KM initially noticed nothing connected to an open window and shutter.
Ah, OK then, thanks for clarifying, we must conclude then the wind was totally still at 9.30 and at 10, both window and shutter was open, curtains were dead still, and on a cold night no one noticed any chill at all, before a gust appeared to open the curtains..something like that....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 11:19:27 PM
This is incorrect. KM has stated in TV interviews that Madeleine said "where were you when Sean and I cried"
Just for info.
Yes, and it's odd, why are we never told, what was the parents' reply to the child's question? A straight answer would have been "We were in a restaurant until about 11pm and then in a bar until about 11.45pm"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 11:38:04 PM
I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread
Five experts ( and they really are experts ) analysed the three possible theories :
That Madeleine woke and wandered
That she was abducted
That her parents were involved in her disappearance
What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option ( involvement of the parents ) . It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of 'staging' a crime
The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories ( woke and wandered/ abduction ) because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios
I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters other than that they were opened as part of the staging of a crime
I know other explanations have been sought ... but that's the thing ... other explanations have to be 'imagined'
There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately screams abduction ... on the contrary, it is something that somehow has to be 'fitted in' with abduction theory
I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
What the "woke and wandered" theory is missing, is a reason for waking that is drastic enough to cause the child to leave the apartment. Would not someone opening the child's bedroom shutter and window from outside be sufficiently drastic?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 17, 2015, 11:50:10 PM
Ah, OK then, thanks for clarifying, we must conclude then the wind was totally still at 9.30 and at 10, both window and shutter was open, curtains were dead still, and on a cold night no one noticed any chill at all, before a gust appeared to open the curtains..something like that....
KM did not notice the open window and shutter at first. She noticed them only after she moved the bedroom door to the almost closed position, causing the wind to slam it shut, then she opened it again, and this reopening caused the pressure change which made the curtains to blow in. MO did not move the bedroom door to the almost closed position, therefore the door did not slam, therefore he did not reopen it, therefore the curtains did not blow in, and he did not notice that the window and shutter were open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 17, 2015, 11:59:18 PM
Yes, and it's odd, why are we never told, what was the parents' reply to the child's question? A straight answer would have been "We were in a restaurant until about 11pm and then in a bar until about 11.45pm"
Well, they said they didn't know when this was, IE was it when they were having a bath?, and one day Madeleine came through to their room...was it then? But yes, they never said what they replied with, just that "she dropped it and moved on" oh and also they said if she hadn't been abducted that "passing comment" would never have crossed their minds again, but as we now know,due to the rogatory interviews, it did and in a big way
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 12:01:29 AM
KM did not notice the open window and shutter at first. She noticed them only after she moved the bedroom door to the almost closed position, causing the wind to slam it shut, then she opened it again, and this reopening caused the pressure change which made the curtains to blow in. MO did not move the bedroom door to the almost closed position, therefore the door did not slam, therefore he did not reopen it, therefore the curtains did not blow in, and he did not notice that the window and shutter were open.
So you are saying moving a door causes curtains to move??
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 12:11:05 AM
Well, they said they didn't know when this was, IE was it when they were having a bath?, and one day Madeleine came through to their room...was it then? But yes, they never said what they replied with, just that "she dropped it and moved on" oh and also they said if she hadn't been abducted that "passing comment" would never have crossed their minds again, but as we now know,due to the rogatory interviews, it did and in a big way
Well the child certainly asked a question, and if hypothetically the people the question was addressed to didn't answer it, then that would fit my definition of an unanswered question. The question was asked at Thursday breakfast therefore it was fairly obvious that it referred to when the parents were out on Wednesday night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 12:15:03 AM
Actually MO did hear a sound when he entered the apartment. It's in the files Pathfinder.
He didn't hear a sound and you better not be quoting Control Risks?
At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. (Matt Oldfield 4 May 2007)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 12:20:05 AM
He didn't hear a sound and you better not be quoting Control Risks?
At around 9.25pm, the interviewee went into his apartment and Madeleine's apartment to check on the children. He states that the door of the bedroom that was occupied by Madeleine and the twins, was open and that there was enough light in the bedroom for him to see the twins in their cots. That he couldn't see the bed occupied by Madeleine, but as it was all quiet, he deduced that she was sleeping. (Matt Oldfield 4 May 2007)
Thanks for your advice Pathfinder but the case is too important to discard good information that is in the files. So I post a theory of what that noise really was. According to the files the witness guessed it might have been the sound of a child turning over in a cot. That is possible, but here is another possibility, it may have been the sound of curtains briefly blowing in that bedroom, due to a sudden pressure adjustment when the witness opened the sliding lounge door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 12:37:02 AM
KM did not notice the open window and shutter at first. She noticed them only after she moved the bedroom door to the almost closed position, causing the wind to slam it shut, then she opened it again, and this reopening caused the pressure change which made the curtains to blow in. MO did not move the bedroom door to the almost closed position, therefore the door did not slam, therefore he did not reopen it, therefore the curtains did not blow in, and he did not notice that the window and shutter were open.
Why didn't she check on the children before closing the door? That's the reason she was there. To check not close doors. Inconsistencies are investigated by detectives. Gerry had the same story - the door was open so he did his proud father moment but forgot to check the apartment after knowing a door had moved &%+((£
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 12:44:07 AM
Thanks for your advice Pathfinder but the case is too important to discard good information that is in the files. So I post a theory of what that noise really was. According to the files the witness guessed it might have been the sound of a child turning over in a cot. That is possible, but here is another possibility, it may have been the sound of curtains briefly blowing in that bedroom, due to a sudden pressure adjustment when the witness opened the sliding lounge door.
Matt is the witness not Control Risk reports. If he heard any sound at all it would be in his rog.
4078 'Okay. We will move back then from that check. I am sure you would have already mentioned, but did you see anybody'' Reply 'No'.
00.45.51 4078 'Hear any cars'' Reply 'No. No, I mean, as I say, it was nearly always completely deserted, there was very few people in the resort, erm, you know, you only rarely saw, you know, occasionally people move about on the street and that was mostly during the day, erm, everybody else seemed to sort of eat earlier or, erm, used the baby sitting or whatever service, there were a few people about between and there wasn't really much of a thoroughfare for, erm, for traffic, so nothing that stuck out'.
4078 'In know specifically one of the Portuguese questions was, did you hear footsteps or car doors opening and shutting'' Reply 'No (inaudible)'.
4078 'Okay. And you attended the Tapas Bar. And what was happening there at that stage when you got back'' Reply 'Erm, well everybody, apart from Russell and I were back, so I arrived back before Russell, erm, I think I said, all quiet, or something to, erm, to, you know, Kate and Gerry and just sort of sat back down and we carried on and I told Jane that Evie had been sick and so later on when his food came, we said, he's going to be late, can we sort of send it back or you just keep it warm and he'll have it later on, erm, we had a conversation as normal, I just remember launching into this Jane relieving Russell'.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 12:48:12 AM
@Pathfinder thanks for that bit of the rog where the witness replies that he heard no cars, car doors, or footsteps.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 01:01:21 AM
Why didn't she check on the children before closing the door? That's the reason she was there. To check not close doors. Inconsistencies are investigated by detectives. Gerry had the same story - the door was open so he did his proud father moment but forgot to check the apartment after knowing a door had moved &%+((£
An obvious first assumption IMO would be that the child had used the bathroom. That is a very common thing and it seems strange for any theory to say it's not possible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 01:01:45 AM
Well the child certainly asked a question, and if hypothetically the people the question was addressed to didn't answer it, then that would fit my definition of an unanswered question. The question was asked at Thursday breakfast therefore it was fairly obvious that it referred to when the parents were out on Wednesday night.
if true that proves the Mccanns were willing to go out knowing their kids were likely to wake up crying and they wouldn't be there to see to them Nice
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 01:02:47 AM
@Pathfinder thanks for that bit of the rog where the witness replies that he heard no cars, car doors, or footsteps.
Read the full thing and all is repeated is quiet not a sound. You won't find any of that shit that was in the CR report. Hopefully SY will investigate their reports in this farce!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 01:03:39 AM
An obvious first assumption IMO would be that the child had used the bathroom. That is a very common thing and it seems strange for any theory to say it's not possible.
No it's not. Two other people had been in the apartment. Kate hadn't been in it since 8:30. You check if they're in bed first! Not doing so stands out a mile to any investigator.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 18, 2015, 01:13:44 AM
No it's not. Two other people had been in the apartment. Kate hadn't been in it since 8:30. You check if they're in bed first! Not doing so stands out a mile to any investigator.
From a (selfish) mother's perspective, if Kate had popped her head around the door & Madeleine had been awake, what do you think would have happened next? Clue - Kate wouldn't have been going straight back to the dinner table.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 01:18:35 AM
Read the full thing and all is repeated is quiet not a sound. You won't find any of that shit that was in the CR report. Hopefully SY will investigate their reports in this farce!
The document I read got its information from the witness IMO. As well as a noise it also mentions did I recall a stairgate?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 01:30:44 AM
No it's not. Two other people had been in the apartment. Kate hadn't been in it since 8:30. You check if they're in bed first! Not doing so stands out a mile to any investigator.
Your theory claims that the child was never in that bedroom that evening, not even at 7.30pm, doesn't it?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 01:40:00 AM
The document I read got its information from the witness IMO. As well as a noise it also mentions did I recall a stairgate?
wHich document is that? dOnt know why you're not linking to it TBH instead of leaving readers wondering lol, see you, will check tomorrow
Having done a quick scour of MOs interviews and others in search, came across MO saying in his 10 May statement they drank "unusually high" (for them) amounts of alcohol...interesting..never spotted that before, I do wonder sometimes what effect if any, if true, this had on the whole evening and the next day, both action and memory wise, Gnite all
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 02:03:47 AM
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot"
Thanks, CR seems to have some pattern of inventing info?? That is in none of their statements?? Why? Kate ran over to open the curtains? Jane tanner didn't see the top of the child well but had pink top on? Now Oldfield heard a noise? All from CR joint statements which begs the question why they agreed it and presented it to the police! Bye now
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 18, 2015, 02:24:46 AM
Thanks, CR seems to have some pattern of inventing info?? That is in none of their statements?? Why? Kate ran over to open the curtains? Jane tanner didn't see the top of the child well but had pink top on? Now Oldfield heard a noise? All from CR joint statements which begs the question why they agreed it and presented it to the police! Bye now
T9 statements direct to PJ 4th/10th May were transcribed in portuguese and the original english never written down.
But the document I posted is original english with no translation and no translation errors so it is more accurate.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 04:42:37 AM
T9 statements direct to PJ 4th/10th May were transcribed in portuguese and the original english never written down.
But the document I posted is original english with no translation and no translation errors so it is more accurate.
depends what you mean by accurate seeing as three statements given in that English CRG joint statement differ from three English TV statements by The same people, Tanner Gerald and Kate,so which one of these two English versions is more accurate? The CRG group statements or the TV interviews?
regarding what Tanner saw, (bottom of pyjamas not the top) where Gerald was when he spoke to Jez (Opposite side of the road and not by the gate) and how the curtains came to be open by Kate,(opened by the wind and not her running over to open them) Sources:, Panorama BBC Jane Tanner interview, Madeleine Was Here, C4, K and G Mccann
&%+((£
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 08:50:14 AM
"MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot"
SY should investigate these inventions. The curtains could be open? He never said anything of the sort. I wonder who was controlling it - not Matt! Kate still doesn't look out through the window to check after now opening the curtains. What a load of.............
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Benice on September 18, 2015, 09:41:55 AM
SY should investigate these inventions. The curtains could be open? He never said anything of the sort. I wonder who was controlling it - not Matt! Kate still doesn't look out through the window to check after now opening the curtains. What a load of.............
Why would you expect every account to be identical? Those which are summaries - are just that - summaries of points which the person who is writing up the summary believes to be pertinent enough to include in them. They are not verbatim and so every word people say is not recorded. IMO masses will be left out.
Going over every word of accounts with a fine tooth comb is a waste of time and energy IMO. Only verbatim untranslated statements are reliable IMO - and even they won't cover every single second of events which occurred.
IMO your expectations are unrealistic PF. IMO SY will have already addressed anything which they thought needed further explanation or clarification with the people concerned. That goes without saying surely?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 18, 2015, 10:05:20 AM
Tip No. 1: Inconsistencies "When you want to know if someone is lying, look for inconsistencies in what they are saying," says Newberry, who was a federal agent for 30 years and a police officer for five.
When the woman he was questioning said she ran and hid after hearing gunshots -- without looking -- Newberry saw the inconsistency immediately.
"There was something that just didn't fit," says Newberry. "She heard gunshots but she didn't look? I knew that was inconsistent with how a person would respond to a situation like that."
So when she wasn't paying attention, he banged on the table. She looked right at him.
"When a person hears a noise, it's a natural reaction to look toward it," Newberry tells WebMD. "I knew she heard those gunshots, looked in the direction from which they came, saw the shooter, and then ran."
Sure enough, he was right.
"Her story was just illogical," says Newberry. "And that's what you should look for when you're talking to someone who isn't being truthful. Are there inconsistencies that just don't fit?"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 18, 2015, 11:33:24 AM
Tip No. 1: Inconsistencies "When you want to know if someone is lying, look for inconsistencies in what they are saying," says Newberry, who was a federal agent for 30 years and a police officer for five.
When the woman he was questioning said she ran and hid after hearing gunshots -- without looking -- Newberry saw the inconsistency immediately.
"There was something that just didn't fit," says Newberry. "She heard gunshots but she didn't look? I knew that was inconsistent with how a person would respond to a situation like that."
So when she wasn't paying attention, he banged on the table. She looked right at him.
"When a person hears a noise, it's a natural reaction to look toward it," Newberry tells WebMD. "I knew she heard those gunshots, looked in the direction from which they came, saw the shooter, and then ran."
Sure enough, he was right.
"Her story was just illogical," says Newberry. "And that's what you should look for when you're talking to someone who isn't being truthful. Are there inconsistencies that just don't fit?"
Inconsistences.
If you know immediately that your child has been snatched why keep searching in cupboards? If you see an open window why close it? It's evidence. Leave the room alone, move the kids. If you're concerned about the unusually deep of sleep your children why not mention it? If you're sure someone entered your apartment and snatched one of your children why run out and leave the remaining two unprotected? If one of you sees a man carrying a child why not mention it so people search in that direction immediately instead of rushing off in other directions? If it's your child who disappeared why not go to reception yourself to make sure the police are called? if the resort felt 'so safe' why tell relatives soon after your child disappears that the Algarve has 'lots of paedophile gangs'? Has someone just given you this news? Why publicise a 'coloboma' which wasn't one? If the curtains were closed and billowing why tell the police that the window, shutters and curtains were open when you discovered the child gone?
All things which I find strange.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 18, 2015, 11:18:27 PM
Why would you expect every account to be identical? Those which are summaries - are just that - summaries of points which the person who is writing up the summary believes to be pertinent enough to include in them. They are not verbatim and so every word people say is not recorded. IMO masses will be left out.
Going over every word of accounts with a fine tooth comb is a waste of time and energy IMO. Only verbatim untranslated statements are reliable IMO - and even they won't cover every single second of events which occurred.
IMO your expectations are unrealistic PF. IMO SY will have already addressed anything which they thought needed further explanation or clarification with the people concerned. That goes without saying surely?
PF was comparing the statements made to the PJ with statements made to Control Risks, they don't MATCH...
So why have a go? Why did the tapas group give statements/a summmary to Control Risks in the first place?And how do you explain their testimonies/summaries being different? To their 4th AND 10th May statements to the PJ seeing as their second statements were also on the 10 May? and their joint statement to CRG was on the 10 May ? In other words, they said one thng to the PJ and another to CRG???
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 19, 2015, 12:49:27 AM
This 3-page document was not written by the CR company. It was written and printed by the T9 themselves. No intermediary was involved in writing it, no translation, and no translation errors, this is the original english, by the T9. All arguments such as "you better not be be quoting CR" are inapplicable. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg It says "hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot" and also mentions, you may recall, a stairgate.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 19, 2015, 01:14:07 AM
Matt is the witness not Control Risk reports. ... (snip)
Your assumption that this 3-page document is by CR is not correct Pathfinder. Proof #1: The first page of the document itself states who wrote it. Proof #2: The document was handed to the PJ before IFLG and CR even arrived in Portugal. Proof #3: ROB rog clearly states who wrote it. Actually it was written by the T9 themselves.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 19, 2015, 01:57:50 AM
Your assumption that this 3-page document is by CR is not correct Pathfinder. Proof #1: The first page of the document itself states who wrote it. Proof #2: The document was handed to the PJ before IFLG and CR even arrived in Portugal. Proof #3: ROB rog clearly states who wrote it. Actually it was written by the T9 themselves.
I asked you yesterday post 1834 vis a vis this convo what document you were referring to and you quoted the control risks group document now you are saying it wasn't? Is it possible to keep some semblance and continuity here? Catch up Tomorrow!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 19, 2015, 02:12:58 AM
I asked you yesterday post 1834 vis a vis this convo what document you were referring to and you quoted the control risks group document now you are saying it wasn't? Is it possible to keep some semblance and continuity here? Catch up Tomorrow!
I did not quote a CR document Mercury. This was what I quoted
" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot"
This is not a CR document. This document was written by the T9 and handed to the PJ before CR even arrived in Portugal.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 19, 2015, 02:36:52 AM
I did not quote a CR document Mercury. This was what I quoted
" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot"
This is not a CR document. This document was written by the T9 and handed to the PJ before CR even arrived in Portugal.
So the joint statement of 10 May was nothing to do with CR group. If not, why do many people think so
But it still doesn't explain the massive discrepancies between the 10 May joint statements and other statements made
sO Pegasus who penned the joint statement and why and especially if the joint statement was different in massive respects from sole statements....somethng booobooo here bye now....,
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 19, 2015, 03:10:38 AM
So the joint statement of 10 May was nothing to do with CR group. If not, why do many people think so
But it still doesn't explain the massive discrepancies between the 10 May joint statements and other statements made
sO Pegasus who penned the joint statement and why and especially if the joint statement was different in massive respects from sole statements....somethng booobooo here bye now....,
The T9 wrote it Mercury. On a laptop borrowed from GB. It was handed to the PJ on a flash memory card on Thu 10 May. The first statements of any of the T9 to CR detectives were on Sun 13 May.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 19, 2015, 03:23:05 AM
The T9 wrote it Mercury. On a laptop borrowed from GB. It was handed to the PJ on a flash memory card on Thu 10 May. The first interviews of T9 with CR detectives were on Sun 13 May.
So...the massive discrepancies stay.....! And can't be assigned to language differences... joint statement = really different from both PJ statements and their own Engkish statements..wtf as they say...bye <<>>>tonorrows
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 19, 2015, 03:41:10 AM
So...the massive discrepancies stay.....! And can't be assigned to language differences... joint statement = really different from both PJ statements and their own Engkish statements..wtf as they say...bye <<>>>tonorrows
I am interested in "21:30 ... hears a sound in the childrens bedroom" These are the exact words - there are no translation errors in this three-page document Mercury - it's the original english typed by the T9 themselves.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 19, 2015, 07:54:54 AM
A combined witness statement must run the risk of being seen as collusion.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 19, 2015, 12:47:18 PM
I did not quote a CR document Mercury. This was what I quoted
" http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/P4/04_VOLUME_IVa_Page_890.jpg MO enters flat, hears a sound in the children's bedroom that is probably one of the twins rolling over in their cot"
This is not a CR document. This document was written by the T9 and handed to the PJ before CR even arrived in Portugal.
Not what Matt said so it is irrelevant. Matt is the witness not any T9 document.
"So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet."
Not what Matt said so it is irrelevant. Matt is the witness not any T9 document.
"So I approached the room but I didn't actually go in because you could see the twins in the cots and one of the, you could see the twins in the cots because they're in with, sort of the cots were in the middle of the room with sort of a gap of about sort of maybe a foot between the two, the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing and there were two there and it was all completely quiet."
He heard the noise when he first entered the apartment Pathfinder, not when he was just outside the bedroom. The fact that MO heard this noise was typed on a laptop with MO present and saying what to type. No intermediaries, no private sector undercover operatives working secretly for the Blair government, no translators, no foreign transcribers with antique typewriters. There were only 7 people in the room when that sentence about the noise was typed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 19, 2015, 11:57:48 PM
He heard the noise when he first entered the apartment Pathfinder, not when he was just outside the bedroom. The fact that MO heard this noise was typed on a laptop with MO present and saying what to type. No intermediaries, no private sector undercover operatives working secretly for the Blair government, no translators, no foreign transcribers with antique typewriters. There were only 7 people in the room when that sentence about the noise was typed.
Not in his rog but this was. Matt noticed the shutters weren't down in the other bedroom where Eddie alerted so that door could have been used as it was in my theory i.e. the simplest way which is also the quickest.
4078 'I am sorry, you already said how long you think you were in the apartment for, I have forgotten'' Reply 'It can't have been more than a couple of minutes, because, erm, I mean, there was no, you know, it was just sort of a check and then it was back really. I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'.
Not in his rog but this was. Matt noticed the shutters weren't down in the other bedroom where Eddie alerted so that door could have been used as it was in my theory i.e. the simplest way which is also the quickest.
4078 'I am sorry, you already said how long you think you were in the apartment for, I have forgotten'' Reply 'It can't have been more than a couple of minutes, because, erm, I mean, there was no, you know, it was just sort of a check and then it was back really. I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'.
The T9 wrote it Mercury. On a laptop borrowed from GB. It was handed to the PJ on a flash memory card on Thu 10 May. The first statements of any of the T9 to CR detectives were on Sun 13 May.
Where did you get that date from? Do you know what happened to these CRG statements? Were they passed on to the PJ and if not why not? Seeing as the purpose of them was to iron out any possible translation errors/misunderstandings which might have occurred in their interviews.
You still have not addressed the question of why there are discrepancies between the joint statement and their other statements...(in any language and various media) for example, in the joint statement typed in English by the tapas 9 as you say, Gerald says he had a conversation by the gate with Wilkins.....in his police statement as in TV he says he crossed the road....Tanner also says (consistently) the pair of them were on the apartment side of the road as does Wilkins, it seems any mistranslations/misunderstandings were NOT ironed out by the joint English statement...?
&%+((£
As for MO, a few examples were given by me before from the joint statement which thoroughly contradict past and future statements made by certain members of the party (in both language situations) so I wouldn't take it as written in stone that MO said he heard any noise
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 20, 2015, 01:58:18 AM
When was the photograph of the bedroom taken ... Foto 17 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html ... the shutters are clearly down.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto17.jpg the shutter is down however the upper 60% of the slats are open allowing light to pass through.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 20, 2015, 08:08:05 AM
http://www.mccannfiles.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/foto17.jpg the shutter is down however the upper 60% of the slats are open allowing light to pass through.
I think that would be the position of the shutter and the slats on the third.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 20, 2015, 09:40:33 AM
When was the photograph of the bedroom taken ... Foto 17 http://www.mccannfiles.com/id155.html ... the shutters are clearly down.
If they were up at 9:30 then that door was used. The simplest/quickest way of entering and leaving from that bedroom where Eddie alerted but not the normal way.
Outside of one patio door: Eight inadequate prints were recovered.- Outside of [the other] patio door: One inadequate print was recovered.
So they tampered with that one as well ? Nothing like covering all bases, then?
Yes. But it was genuine testing Jassi. After 8 years most people of BOTH sides (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside. So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was true - hence the tests.
FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because she thought that to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children (source FP rog).
IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 20, 2015, 10:08:19 PM
Genuine testing Jassi. After 8 years most people (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside. So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was possible - hence the tests.
FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children. Just as IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.
Their job was to find the child and call the cops not to tamper with evidence. The parents shutters shouldn't up at 9:30 and there's only one reason why they would be. Your theory explains nothing because you can't explain how the child disappeared. Nobody heard that child. The Moyes were above, Fenn was above - they heard nowt. My theory explains why she wasn't heard and how she disappeared.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 20, 2015, 10:22:29 PM
Yes. But it was genuine testing Jassi. After 8 years most people of BOTH sides (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside. So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was true - hence the tests.
FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because she thought that to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children (source FP rog).
IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.
The bedcovers, Pegasus. Too neat & in the wrong position for a child who had left the bedroom in a panic. Kate said Madeleine was under the bedcovers when she was put to bed. GM said she was on top of the bedcovers when he looked in at 9.10. Why would Madeleine not get back under the covers if she'd popped to the bathroom? It was a chilly night. I think Madeleine had already been drugged by the intruder and lifted out of bed but that person was then interrupted by GM's unexpected check. That intruder placed Madeleine back on top of the bed to give the appearance she was sleeping & the intruder hid, most probably in the parents' bedroom. The window was opened from the inside, no question in my mind. Entry & exit quickly & quietly via the front door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 20, 2015, 10:30:42 PM
The bedcovers, Pegasus. Too neat & in the wrong position for a child who had left the bedroom in a panic. Kate said Madeleine was under the bedcovers when she was put to bed. GM said she was on top of the bedcovers when he looked in at 9.10. Why would Madeleine not get back under the covers if she'd popped to the bathroom? It was a chilly night. I think Madeleine had already been drugged by the intruder and lifted out of bed but that person was then interrupted by GM's unexpected check. That intruder placed Madeleine back on top of the bed to give the appearance she was sleeping & the intruder hid, most probably in the parents' bedroom. The window was opened from the inside, no question in my mind. Entry & exit quickly & quietly via the front door.
A child getting out of bed alone would leave the covers neater than an abductor grabbing a child from bed Misty. Or are you suggesting your abductor pulls the covers back, lifts child, puts child down elsewhere, puts covers back and tidies them?
The reason for getting out of bed and going into another room between about 9.10 and 9.30 and not returning, is IMO not to use the bathroom, it is to move away from someone opening the shutter from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 20, 2015, 10:33:44 PM
Yes. But it was genuine testing Jassi. After 8 years most people of BOTH sides (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside. So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was true - hence the tests.
FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because she thought that to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children (source FP rog).
IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.
I believe the shutters were opened from the outside
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 20, 2015, 10:43:58 PM
I believe the shutters were opened from the outside
Good. You and I are way ahead of Mr Amaral on this point Dave. He thought it was impossible.
A simple mechanical study of how the window and shutter work proves that, if the window lock button is not pressed in, the fully closed window and shutter can both be completely opened from outside without damage in about 10 seconds IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 20, 2015, 10:57:18 PM
Good. You and I are way ahead of Mr Amaral on this point Dave. He thought it was impossible.
A simple mechanical study of how the window and shutter work proves that, if the window lock button is not pressed in, the fully closed window and shutter can both be completely opened from outside without damage in about 10 seconds IMO.
So the child goes to another room. Who silenced her and removed her from the apartment because if she left they would have heard her screaming for help. Once she's awake and can't find her parents she starts screaming for help as Fenn heard on Tue. None of your theory fits with known facts. Your theory relys on the impossible. A window needs to be unlocked and the burglar doesn't enter but runs off. Then Madeleine moves to another room. So what happens next? Why wasn't she heard? None of your theory fits. Things are done simply not moving in and out of rooms moving doors before each checker comes. You cannot seriously believe that complicated mess you have invented happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 20, 2015, 11:05:44 PM
So the child goes to another room. Who silenced her and removed her from the apartment because if she left they would have heard her screaming for help. Once she's awake and can't find her parents she starts screaming for help as Fenn heard on Tue. None of your theory fits with known facts. Your theory relys on the impossible. A window needs to be unlocked and the burglar doesn't enter but runs off. Then Madeleine moves to another room. So what happens next? Why wasn't she heard? None of your theory fits. Things are done simply not moving in and out of rooms moving doors before each checker comes. You cannot seriously believe that complicated mess you have invented happened.
they are also thinking of a adult perspective pathfinder a almost 4 year old is NOT emotionally abled to do any of the things they think maddie could a 3 year old is stilla little child
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 20, 2015, 11:07:42 PM
Good. You and I are way ahead of Mr Amaral on this point Dave. He thought it was impossible.
A simple mechanical study of how the window and shutter work proves that, if the window lock button is not pressed in, the fully closed window and shutter can both be completely opened from outside without damage in about 10 seconds IMO.
petermac showed it was possible...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 20, 2015, 11:12:54 PM
they are also thinking of a adult perspective pathfinder a almost 4 year old is NOT emotionally abled to do any of the things they think maddie could a 3 year old is stilla little child
Some here say she was mature enough to think about protecting her sibling from an intruder
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 20, 2015, 11:15:53 PM
they are also thinking of a adult perspective pathfinder a almost 4 year old is NOT emotionally abled to do any of the things they think maddie could a 3 year old is stilla little child
Correct and the place was deserted except for Jes Wilkins. He only saw Gerry and Jane early on at around 8:30. You have Fenn and the Moyes above (outside on their balcony) so she had to be silenced to be removed because nobody heard anything. There were regular checks that night. I don't believe she could be heard and that leads me back to the dog alerts. SY are not searching for a body for a gamble that's for sure.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 20, 2015, 11:19:25 PM
A child getting out of bed alone would leave the covers neater than an abductor grabbing a child from bed Misty. Or are you suggesting your abductor pulls the covers back, lifts child, puts child down elsewhere, puts covers back and tidies them?
The reason for getting out of bed and going into another room between about 9.10 and 9.30 and not returning, is IMO not to use the bathroom, it is to move away from someone opening the shutter from outside.
I'm suggesting that the clue is in the fact that Madeleine was originally under the covers but around half an hour later she was on top of the covers, apparently asleep. She wasn't clutching CC or her blanket when GM saw her, so clearly not feeing insecure or aware her parents were missing at that stage. The door had moved. Had she left her bed, she would have been aware her parents were not there at that stage because of the darkness & absence of noise. Tidying up & staging was done after Madeleine had been removed from the apartment & passed to an accomplice.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 20, 2015, 11:21:14 PM
Some here say she was mature enough to think about protecting her sibling from an intruder
thats a load of you know what she was a tiny innocent child she couldnt protect herself or the twins she was a child SHE should have been protected by gerry and kate and she wasnt
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 20, 2015, 11:21:51 PM
Yes my theory is the child goes to another room. Your theory starts in another room and seems to say everything in the child bedroom is lies and never happened. So we have got to this "another room" by two different theories. The difference is - already at this point my theory has explained the open window and the open shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 20, 2015, 11:37:09 PM
I'm suggesting that the clue is in the fact that Madeleine was originally under the covers but around half an hour later she was on top of the covers, apparently asleep. She wasn't clutching CC or her blanket when GM saw her, so clearly not feeing insecure or aware her parents were missing at that stage. The door had moved. Had she left her bed, she would have been aware her parents were not there at that stage because of the darkness & absence of noise. Tidying up & staging was done after Madeleine had been removed from the apartment & passed to an accomplice.
You think if an abduction took place they had time to stage the scene? Seems unlikely given the time frame available... What staging do you think could have taken place?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: carlymichelle on September 20, 2015, 11:38:57 PM
You clearly just assume and fabricate and state things as facts when you have NO IDEA not a good track record
going by kids i know mercury aged 3 a CHILD is not capable of protecting themselves they have no sense of danger because it isnt developed yet not fully anyway some make maddie seem older then she was
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 20, 2015, 11:48:22 PM
going by kids i know mercury aged 3 a CHILD is not capable of protecting themselves they have no sense of danger because it isnt developed yet not fully anyway some make maddie seem older then she was
A three-year-old is capable of running away from danger.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 20, 2015, 11:52:46 PM
You think if an abduction took place they had time to stage the scene? Seems unlikely given the time frame available... What staging do you think could have taken place?
There is no time frame though from 5.30 till 10
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 20, 2015, 11:55:59 PM
For an abduction to take place I'd imagine there would not be much time to stage anything. I meant from the accepted time frame of an abduction occurring from roughly 9.20ish-10 and the possible 10-20 minutes they would have to do it in...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 12:06:51 AM
For an abduction to take place I'd imagine there would not be much time to stage anything. I meant from the accepted time frame of an abduction occurring from roughly 9.20ish-10 and the possible 10-20 minutes they would have to do it in...
No, the staging time starts at 5 30
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 12:10:36 AM
For an abduction to take place I'd imagine there would not be much time to stage anything. I meant from the accepted time frame of an abduction occurring from roughly 9.20ish-10 and the possible 10-20 minutes they would have to do it in...
How long does it take to open a window & straighten a crumpled bed? (and yes, I think the bedding probably was crumpled whilst Madeleine struggled for a short time).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 21, 2015, 12:22:50 AM
Mercury - I mean for it to be an abduction and no parental involvement. Of course 5.30 would be in line with other theories.
Misty - the window bothers me because realistically you would get max 20mins assuming a 10min buffer on either end in case the checkers deviated from their routine and not much time for misdirection/staging and why bother in this case?. The window would make a reasonable amount of noise in that room and whoever was doing the abduction would be shitting it in case the other children woke. Is the window worth raising if on your own? But with an accomplice it makes more sense to me, but still when the window was raised you would have the noise problem of waking the children. TBH I think if abduction is the case someone opening the window from the outside and coaxing the girl over and then pulling her through makes sense to me...they never entered the apartment... If there were 2 of you - why bother opening the window at all if one of you was already inside? Why not just leave via the front door? Window seems like an unnecessary risk in many scenarios to me...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 12:41:23 AM
Mercury - I mean for it to be an abduction and no parental involvement. Of course 5.30 would be in line with other theories.
Misty - the window bothers me because realistically you would get max 20mins assuming a 10min buffer on either end in case the checkers deviated from their routine and not much time for misdirection/staging and why bother in this case?. The window would make a reasonable amount of noise in that room and whoever was doing the abduction would be shitting it in case the other children woke. Is the window worth raising if on your own? But with an accomplice it makes more sense to me, but still when the window was raised you would have the noise problem of waking the children. TBH I think if abduction is the case someone opening the window from the outside and coaxing the girl over and then pulling her through makes sense to me...they never entered the apartment... If there were 2 of you - why bother opening the window at all if one of you was already inside? Why not just leave via the front door? Window seems like an unnecessary risk in many scenarios to me...
Do you think Madeleine would have been visible to someone peering in through the window from the other side of the room, bearing in mind the small amount of light entering the room and the way the door opened? The bed is positioned on the window wall in such a way that the foot does not extend lengthways to immediately under the window opening. That would make lifting a child through the window much more difficult. Reasons for opening the window have been discussed elsewhere, as have reasons for the twins not waking.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 21, 2015, 12:53:52 AM
Mercury - I mean for it to be an abduction and no parental involvement. Of course 5.30 would be in line with other theories.
Misty - the window bothers me because realistically you would get max 20mins assuming a 10min buffer on either end in case the checkers deviated from their routine and not much time for misdirection/staging and why bother in this case?. The window would make a reasonable amount of noise in that room and whoever was doing the abduction would be shitting it in case the other children woke. Is the window worth raising if on your own? But with an accomplice it makes more sense to me, but still when the window was raised you would have the noise problem of waking the children. TBH I think if abduction is the case someone opening the window from the outside and coaxing the girl over and then pulling her through makes sense to me...they never entered the apartment... If there were 2 of you - why bother opening the window at all if one of you was already inside? Why not just leave via the front door? Window seems like an unnecessary risk in many scenarios to me...
The open window rules out the woke and wandered theory. So why would an abductor rule himself in @)(++(* It doesn't make any sense never mind noise, risk incriminating oneself (no glove marks lol), time wasting, window facing the world etc. Why an abductor would open it doesn't make any sense if he didn't enter that way - he could take a child quicker than he could open shutters and window.
A predator is the only other credible explanation and that could connect to a lone Smithman and not a team. You would have to investigate everyone who was on the streets that night e.g. the checkers, Jes, tapas diners and compare them to witness efits to get your first suspects in for questioning but the ones who repeat no comment and hide behind lawyers when the going gets tough should be carefully investigated.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 02:06:20 AM
The open window rules out the woke and wandered theory. ...(snip)
No it doesn't rule it out. It makes it more likely.. For example this hypothetical scenario Burglar thinks everyone is out, opens window and shutter from outside, someone wakes hears and sees this and goes out lounge sliding door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 21, 2015, 09:21:04 AM
No it doesn't rule it out. It makes it more likely.. For example this hypothetical scenario Burglar thinks everyone is out, opens window and shutter from outside, someone wakes hears and sees this and goes out lounge sliding door.
That didn't happen because nobody heard that child. The Moyes were out on their balcony. Fenn would be aware of any noise after Tue but she heard nowt until 10:30 on 3 May. Kate alone in the apartment is not yet screaming and kicking walls but this happens when the police arrive.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 21, 2015, 10:28:18 AM
Do you think Madeleine would have been visible to someone peering in through the window from the other side of the room, bearing in mind the small amount of light entering the room and the way the door opened? The bed is positioned on the window wall in such a way that the foot does not extend lengthways to immediately under the window opening. That would make lifting a child through the window much more difficult. Reasons for opening the window have been discussed elsewhere, as have reasons for the twins not waking.
If it was as dark outside as is suspected. The person's eyes would have adjusted to the light, so imo you may be able to see quite well. The cots were quite high up so that could have obstructed the person's view. Although it is likely Madeleine would sit up in bed. The thing is though a potential abductor may not know the layout of the room or what room Madeleine was in, so was just trying to get access through the easiest window. I think picking a child up if they were standing in front of the window and not on the bed wouldn't be too difficult at all for someone fit and strong... depends how much of your upper body was above the window I suppose. I've heard the possible reasons for opening the window before, but I don't find them convincing ie. as a red heron(seems a really risky red heron to set up given noise and other children) and a possible escape route if interrupted. Drugging the children seems unlikely too given the time frame. Who know's though if these are professionals - would have to be someone extremely well organised imo as sounds like a complicated plan to pull off.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 21, 2015, 10:30:15 AM
The open window rules out the woke and wandered theory. So why would an abductor rule himself in @)(++(* It doesn't make any sense never mind noise, risk incriminating oneself (no glove marks lol), time wasting, window facing the world etc. Why an abductor would open it doesn't make any sense if he didn't enter that way - he could take a child quicker than he could open shutters and window.
A predator is the only other credible explanation and that could connect to a lone Smithman and not a team. You would have to investigate everyone who was on the streets that night e.g. the checkers, Jes, tapas diners and compare them to witness efits to get your first suspects in for questioning but the ones who repeat no comment and hide behind lawyers when the going gets tough should be carefully investigated.
The woke and wandered theory could be explained if a burglar opened the window and then left after seeing children in the room imo. Obviously Madeleine then wandered off. How she would exit the apartment though - no idea. Peagasus refers to lounge sliding doors, but where would she go then? Can't see her hurdling the gates etc as they were closed behind.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 21, 2015, 11:03:18 AM
The woke and wandered theory could be explained if a burglar opened the window and then left after seeing children in the room imo. Obviously Madeleine then wandered off. How she would exit the apartment though - no idea. Peagasus refers to lounge sliding doors, but where would she go then? Can't see her hurdling the gates etc as they were closed behind.
If she was outside on the patio she would be heard before any fall. It's doubtful she would leave the front door way if somebody had opened the shutters on that side. You go away from danger. Madeleine was in a dark room and the first thing she most likely had done in that situation would fetch her parents for help. On not finding them somebody would have heard her screams. Not a peep from her that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 21, 2015, 12:48:24 PM
No one knows how any individual child would react at that age.
Hiding from danger, certainly.
Her family was convinced that she would have screamed the place down (but there's always the possibility that she was somehow persuaded not to).
My own reactions at that age (and, again, children react differently) would have been to either holler, or to move directly away from the perceived danger. In the latter case, moving away could have easily been to move towards the furthest side of the bed (as that would have been directly away) with the covers over my head hoping not to be noticed.
If the furthest side of the bed had been in an open space, I might have scrambled out of the opposite side of the bed, but I very much doubt that I would have moved even temporarily towards the danger (i.e. climbing out towards the window side), or would have scrambled over the bottom of the bed to run.
Other possibilities that I find plausible (in the event of someone attempting to enter via the window) are that she wasn't in bed at the time (e.g., she'd gone for a pee), or had somehow been drugged, "hypnotised" or otherwise cajoled into compliance. Or unfortunately possibly asphyxiated.
If I'd gone for a pee, I wouldn't have taken CC with me. In any other situation, I'm fairly sure that I would kept CC by my side - even if I'd decided to hide under the covers.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 21, 2015, 01:01:12 PM
Kids are different though Carana as you say noone knows how any individual child would behave. I think getting down to the details of taking CC to the toilet is just far to precise to make a judgement on imo. Regarding heading in the opposite direction from danger I agree with this, but what if this is someone Madeleine knows? Perhaps from the day creche or somewhere else. They call out something like "don't worry Madeleine its just such and such and mummy daddy have told me to come get you". Kids can be easily fooled imo. Especially kids this young. I just think under the circumstances this kind of theory on the abduction side could make sense. Though, the perpetrator would be in a lot of trouble if they refused to come to the window I suppose. This does fit the open window and lack of any other visible entry to the apartment.
PS: I didn't think hypnotism even worked - not reliably anyway or at least not in the way one would think.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2015, 01:31:23 PM
I'm suggesting that the clue is in the fact that Madeleine was originally under the covers but around half an hour later she was on top of the covers, apparently asleep. She wasn't clutching CC or her blanket when GM saw her, so clearly not feeing insecure or aware her parents were missing at that stage. The door had moved. Had she left her bed, she would have been aware her parents were not there at that stage because of the darkness & absence of noise. Tidying up & staging was done after Madeleine had been removed from the apartment & passed to an accomplice.
That explanation neatly ties up why Madeleine was lying on top of the bed the last time she was seen by her father.
With you Misty as far as entry via the recessed wooden door is concerned ... with a key being used.
I don't think Madeleine was taken or passed out that way ... I think she was passed through the window.
Entry via front door
Madeleine drugged (and perhaps the twins)
Window opened and shutter raised from inside
Madeleine lifted from her bed
Father enters unexpectedly
Intruder leaves Madeleine on top of the bed and crouches down behind the cots
Before leaving, father looks in but does not enter
As father exits the intruder lifts the child takes her to the window and passes her through to an accomplice
Intruder exits via the front door
It is possible Madeleine was taken through the front door as I think one of the main purposes of the open window was to distract from the kidnap being thought of as an 'inside job' with a key being used.
I remain to be convinced that Jane Tanner did not witness Madeleine being carried away.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 21, 2015, 01:47:14 PM
Kids are different though Carana as you say noone knows how any individual child would behave. I think getting down to the details of taking CC to the toilet is just far to precise to make a judgement on imo. Regarding heading in the opposite direction from danger I agree with this, but what if this is someone Madeleine knows? Perhaps from the day creche or somewhere else. They call out something like "don't worry Madeleine its just such and such and mummy daddy have told me to come get you". Kids can be easily fooled imo. Especially kids this young. I just think under the circumstances this kind of theory on the abduction side could make sense. Though, the perpetrator would be in a lot of trouble if they refused to come to the window I suppose. This does fit the open window and lack of any other visible entry to the apartment.
PS: I didn't think hypnotism even worked - not reliably anyway or at least not in the way one would think.
I could have been cajoled / persuaded when a little older. Three, going on four, is awfully young to trust a relative stranger in an unusual setting. But that's just my opinion.
I'm fairly sceptical about "hypnotism" as well, which is why I put it in quotation marks (particularly due to scam artists and potential backhanders to members of the public in TV shows, etc.)
On the other hand... I recently watched some of the Derren Brown shows on YouTube, and I'd never heard of him before a few days ago. It's possible that they are all elaborate hoaxes, as many such shows are. However - at the moment - I'm stlll quite impressed, although I might change my mind tomorrow.
One technique involved coaxing someone out of bed in a kind of sleepwalking state. I don't find that impossible in reverse as I've seen it happen myself more than once.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2015, 01:52:05 PM
That explanation neatly ties up why Madeleine was lying on top of the bed the last time she was seen by her father.
With you Misty as far as entry via the recessed wooden door is concerned ... with a key being used.
I don't think Madeleine was taken or passed out that way ... I think she was passed through the window.
Entry via front door
Madeleine drugged (and perhaps the twins)
Window opened and shutter raised from inside
Madeleine lifted from her bed
Father enters unexpectedly
Intruder leaves Madeleine on top of the bed and crouches down behind the cots
Before leaving, father looks in but does not enter
As father exits the intruder lifts the child takes her to the window and passes her through to an accomplice
Intruder exits via the front door
It is possible Madeleine was taken through the front door as I think one of the main purposes of the open window was to distract from the kidnap being thought of as an 'inside job' with a key being used.
I remain to be convinced that Jane Tanner did not witness Madeleine being carried away.
Madeleine and the twins drugged how? After much discussion on another thread no substance was found which could be used for instant drugging.
Gerald McCann never noticed the draft coming through the window and the open shutters and curtains described by his wife when having his proud father moment?
Why distract from key when patio door is clearly open and being used for checking?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 21, 2015, 02:16:29 PM
Madeleine and the twins drugged how? After much discussion on another thread no substance was found which could be used for instant drugging.
Gerald McCann never noticed the draft coming through the window and the open shutters and curtains described by his wife when having his proud father moment?
Why distract from key when patio door is clearly open and being used for checking?
Not to mention statements saying he [Gerry] went into the room. So we have some dodgy geeze with a front door key, an accomplice one or both with drugs together with devices for administering them. Geeze or accomplice then wanders off with child through the front door (of course) otherwise Jane Tanner would not have seen him where she says she did cos had he gone out the back way he would have walked smack dab into Gerry, Jane and Jez. I have this great idea. Start off with the story we like then bend all the statements and known facts to fit. Including ignoring what "probably the finest police force in the world" said about the Tanner sighting. Well it's plausible isn't it? ?{)(**
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 21, 2015, 02:22:54 PM
I could have been cajoled / persuaded when a little older. Three, going on four, is awfully young to trust a relative stranger in an unusual setting. But that's just my opinion.
I'm fairly sceptical about "hypnotism" as well, which is why I put it in quotation marks (particularly due to scam artists and potential backhanders to members of the public in TV shows, etc.)
On the other hand... I recently watched some of the Derren Brown shows on YouTube, and I'd never heard of him before a few days ago. It's possible that they are all elaborate hoaxes, as many such shows are. However - at the moment - I'm stlll quite impressed, although I might change my mind tomorrow.
One technique involved coaxing someone out of bed in a kind of sleepwalking state. I don't find that impossible in reverse as I've seen it happen myself more than once.
Yes I know Derren Brown well! Seen him live at the theatre and read his book. He's an atheist and very interested in the sciences. Also, he says in his book unequivocally that what he does is in fact an illusion, just entertainment, but he never uses stooges. He's highly skilled at hypnotism, NLP, talking to the dead(which is obviously a fraud and he knows this art well and does what all the so called mediums do and likes to expose them), body language, has a photographic memory apparently and a clever guy imo. There is a section in the book where he goes into hypnotism a great deal and from what he wrote I don't think you could ever hypnotise a child in that manner and definitely not in the time available. It takes from what I have read a certain kind of person to be hypnotised and even then they don't really loose their free will - they are more willing participants though vunlerable to suggestion. He revealed the secret to one of his tricks and it was amazing the lengths he went to to do it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 02:38:35 PM
That didn't happen because nobody heard that child. The Moyes were out on their balcony. Fenn would be aware of any noise after Tue but she heard nowt until 10:30 on 3 May. Kate alone in the apartment is not yet screaming and kicking walls but this happens when the police arrive.
IMO the people at 5K were not sitting out on balcony for any length of time, but just went out on balcony very briefly then went to bed.
" ... they had returned to their apartment at around 9.15pm after an evening out. 'We went into the apartment, I went out on the balcony, looking over at the tapas bar, and remarked ... that there were so many people in there eating and drinking' ... " http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/holidaymakers-tell-of-late-night-search-for-madeleine-309331.html
So if the main event happened about 9.25pm, it's possible the people at 5K were no longer on balcony.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 02:50:12 PM
If she was outside on the patio she would be heard before any fall. It's doubtful she would leave the front door way if somebody had opened the shutters on that side. You go away from danger. Madeleine was in a dark room and the first thing she most likely had done in that situation would fetch her parents for help. On not finding them somebody would have heard her screams. Not a peep from her that night.
I've already posted real cases where a home alone child runs from an attempted window entry by burglar and hides elsewhere in the property deliberately making no sound.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 21, 2015, 02:51:14 PM
Yes I know Derren Brown well! Seen him live at the theatre and read his book. He's an atheist and very interested in the sciences. Also, he says in his book unequivocally that what he does is in fact an illusion, just entertainment, but he never uses stooges. He's highly skilled at hypnotism, NLP, talking to the dead(which is obviously a fraud and he knows this art well and does what all the so called mediums do and likes to expose them), body language, has a photographic memory apparently and a clever guy imo. There is a section in the book where he goes into hypnotism a great deal and from what he wrote I don't think you could ever hypnotise a child in that manner and definitely not in the time available. It takes from what I have read a certain kind of person to be hypnotised and even then they don't really loose their free will - they are more willing participants though vunlerable to suggestion. He revealed the secret to one of his tricks and it was amazing the lengths he went to to do it.
That's interesting. I hadn't heard of him before a few days ago and have now watched serveral (but my interest was nothing to do with this case).
As I said, I might dismiss the possibility tomorrow. For the moment, I find it an intriguing possibility that I hadn't considered before.
Would a child or an adult be more difficult to coax in a sleep state? On the one hand, a child presumably relies on familar voices, but an an adult would have more life experience.
My thought at the moment isn't about putting anyone fully awake into some kind of deep relaxation, but about coaxing someone with a soothing voice already in a sleeping state. I did watch one in which he explained the gradual planting of ideas. I also found one about using various subliminal triggers quite mind-flipping (unless it's proved to be a hoax).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 03:10:49 PM
The woke and wandered theory could be explained if a burglar opened the window and then left after seeing children in the room imo. Obviously Madeleine then wandered off. How she would exit the apartment though - no idea. Peagasus refers to lounge sliding doors, but where would she go then? Can't see her hurdling the gates etc as they were closed behind.
I already posted the source which states that at about 9.30pm the childgate was "possibly open". But even if it was open, that doesn't mean it was the child that opened it - for example it could be that not all checkers closed the childgate after their check. IMO in a home-alone attempted-burglary situation a child would probably hide in another room (not go outside), and this is based on reading real cases where this has happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2015, 03:24:46 PM
That's interesting. I hadn't heard of him before a few days ago and have now watched serveral (but my interest was nothing to do with this case).
As I said, I might dismiss the possibility tomorrow. For the moment, I find it an intriguing possibility that I hadn't considered before.
Would a child or an adult be more difficult to coax in a sleep state? On the one hand, a child presumably relies on familar voices, but an an adult would have more life experience.
My thought at the moment isn't about putting anyone fully awake into some kind of deep relaxation, but about coaxing someone with a soothing voice already in a sleeping state. I did watch one in which he explained the gradual planting of ideas. I also found one about using various subliminal triggers quite mind-flipping (unless it's proved to be a hoax).
Reading what LP says about Derren Brown and the time it would take to hypnotise someone making it unlikely ... I know very little about hypnotism ... but is it possible to 'implant' a command word which a previously hypnotised person will react to, and also make a person forget they have been subject to hypnotism? (don't know if that is nonsense)
Madeleine could have been hypnotised on a previous night and been enticed to the window on command??
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 21, 2015, 03:31:38 PM
Reading what LP says about Derren Brown and the time it would take to hypnotise someone making it unlikely ... I know very little about hypnotism ... but is it possible to 'implant' a command word which a previously hypnotised person will react to, and also make a person forget they have been subject to hypnotism? (don't know if that is nonsense)
Madeleine could have been hypnotised on a previous night and been enticed to the window on command??
The night they said she said they were crying. She forgot to do it on 3 May. So Tue, Wed crying then silence on Thurs. Yeah that makes perfect sense so now we have hypnotism. Tick tock *&*%£
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on September 21, 2015, 03:45:07 PM
I already posted the source which states that at about 9.30pm the childgate was "possibly open". But even if it was open, that doesn't mean it was the child that opened it - for example it could be that not all checkers closed the childgate after their check. IMO in a home-alone attempted-burglary situation a child would probably hide in another room (not go outside), and this is based on reading real cases where this has happened.
Make's sense, but how does she get out of the apartment? Through the already opened window?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 21, 2015, 04:01:22 PM
Reading what LP says about Derren Brown and the time it would take to hypnotise someone making it unlikely ... I know very little about hypnotism ... but is it possible to 'implant' a command word which a previously hypnotised person will react to, and also make a person forget they have been subject to hypnotism? (don't know if that is nonsense)
Madeleine could have been hypnotised on a previous night and been enticed to the window on command??
None of that appears to be necessary. It could be at any time, even while the person (adults in the examples I've watched) is perfectly awake.
I'm not convinced that that is a likely possibility as I'm only just exploring it. For the moment, it seems entirely possible. I also have a few thoughts against that hypothesis (or in between the two).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 05:38:18 PM
None of that appears to be necessary. It could be at any time, even while the person (adults in the examples I've watched) is perfectly awake.
I'm not convinced that that is a likely possibility as I'm only just exploring it. For the moment, it seems entirely possible. I also have a few thoughts against that hypothesis (or in between the two).
IMO the only person in this case who has not been hypnotised was the child. Unknowingly hypnotised into accepting unquestioningly two assumptions.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 21, 2015, 05:58:49 PM
The night they said she said they were crying. She forgot to do it on 3 May. So Tue, Wed crying then silence on Thurs. Yeah that makes perfect sense so now we have hypnotism. Tick tock *&*%£
Certainly makes as much sense to me, if not more, than any of the wild notions promoted by the chief investigator who invested and destroyed so much of his credibility on them.
I recall you in particular posting in a derisory way about the door positioning and Madeleine being at first under the blankets on a night considered cool by her mother then later on top of the bedding when seen by her father.
Don't you think Misty's eminently sensible suggestion as to how this may have come about is worth a thought?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 06:21:31 PM
I'm only just exploring this. If I find it hugely unlikely, I have no problem in discarding that possibility.
Yes. Which theory is 100% common-sense and which theory should be discarded? A theory of a rogue hypnotist roaming PDL? Or a theory based on the obvious deduction that the open bedroom door was caused by the child opening it to go to another room?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 06:27:02 PM
Certainly makes as much sense to me, if not more, than any of the wild notions promoted by the chief investigator who invested and destroyed so much of his credibility on them.
I recall you in particular posting in a derisory way about the door positioning and Madeleine being at first under the blankets on a night considered cool by her mother then later on top of the bedding when seen by her father.
Don't you think Misty's eminently sensible suggestion as to how this may have come about is worth a thought?
I've never said she was in bed on top under or whatever.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 21, 2015, 06:58:53 PM
IMO the people at 5K were not sitting out on balcony for any length of time, but just went out on balcony very briefly then went to bed.
" ... they had returned to their apartment at around 9.15pm after an evening out. 'We went into the apartment, I went out on the balcony, looking over at the tapas bar, and remarked ... that there were so many people in there eating and drinking' ... " http://www.breakingnews.ie/world/holidaymakers-tell-of-late-night-search-for-madeleine-309331.html
So if the main event happened about 9.25pm, it's possible the people at 5K were no longer on balcony.
They didn't see Gerry, Jane, Jeremy or the abductor either it seems. I wonder which friend woke them? Fiona was with Kate, Rachael and Jane were minding their children and Dianne was minding Fiona's children.
We were woken up at half past eleven at night by one of the friends of the McCanns to say a little girl had been abducted. Those were the words she used. https://madeleinemccannthetruth.wordpress.com/2011/10/24/radio-stoke-speak-to-susan-moyes/
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 07:17:42 PM
Certainly makes as much sense to me, if not more, than any of the wild notions promoted by the chief investigator who invested and destroyed so much of his credibility on them.
I recall you in particular posting in a derisory way about the door positioning and Madeleine being at first under the blankets on a night considered cool by her mother then later on top of the bedding when seen by her father.
Don't you think Misty's eminently sensible suggestion as to how this may have come about is worth a thought?
It is worth a thought up to the point where it is hard to tell, seeing as KM "thought" she was under the blankets because it was cold but Gerry said she was on top of the blankets because it was hot a)on leaving her to go out and b) on looking in on her on his check
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2015, 09:16:15 PM
I've never said she was in bed on top under or whatever.
I'm not going to look for it PF ... but when postulating your theory and the permutations and significance of the door positions you ridiculed just that. Seems I have a clearer memory of your postings than you do.
Misty has been clever enough to spot what everyone else missed about the relevance of Madeleine being seen on top of the covers rather than under them ... I think you see it is a consideration too.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 09:35:53 PM
It is worth a thought up to the point where it is hard to tell, seeing as KM "thought" she was under the blankets because it was cold but Gerry said she was on top of the blankets because it was hot a)on leaving her to go out and b) on looking in on her on his check
The last time KM saw the child was at about 7.15pm (at bedroom light out time). GM saw the child at about 7.15pm, and at about 9.05pm. He did not see the child at 8.30pm - he just listened at the bedroom door before going out, with no visual check. (edited)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 09:41:10 PM
The last time KM saw the child was at about 7.30pm (at bedroom light out time). GM saw the child at about 7.30pm, and at about 9.05pm. (He did not see the child at 8.30pm - he just listened at the bedroom door before going out, with no visual check).
So you're assuming the child covered themselves after 8 30 even though KM already said she thought they were covered ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 21, 2015, 10:09:00 PM
I'm not going to look for it PF ... but when postulating your theory and the permutations and significance of the door positions you ridiculed just that. Seems I have a clearer memory of your postings than you do.
Misty has been clever enough to spot what everyone else missed about the relevance of Madeleine being seen on top of the covers rather than under them ... I think you see it is a consideration too.
I would suggest if you accuse a poster of stating something you should cite the post or delete your accusation.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2015, 10:30:33 PM
I would suggest if you accuse a poster of stating something you should cite the post or delete your accusation.
Fair enough ... there are quite a few ... but here is one for starters ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=18.0
Sorry for some reason the link doesn't appear to be linking as it should ... but the conversation went as follows ...
42Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. / Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window? « on: September 17, 2015, 08:11:58 AM »
Quote from: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 11:50:35 PM She would have been groggy and sleepy ... and curious about the noise bearing in mind she probably hadn't heard the blind being raised before. Why would she have thought there was danger and she was in need of assistance? There is a probability she approached the window.
If she had run as you think she may ... why did she vanish?
To which Pathfinder replied
Were the curtains open as in early statements or closed and whooshed as in later ones? Was Madeleine on top of the covers because it was hot like Gerry said or under them because it was cold like Kate said?
Which is as I claimed in my original post ...
"I recall you in particular posting in a derisory way about the door positioning and Madeleine being at first under the blankets on a night considered cool by her mother then later on top of the bedding when seen by her father." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg274093#msg274093
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 21, 2015, 10:34:28 PM
I'm not going to look for it PF ... but when postulating your theory and the permutations and significance of the door positions you ridiculed just that. Seems I have a clearer memory of your postings than you do.
Misty has been clever enough to spot what everyone else missed about the relevance of Madeleine being seen on top of the covers rather than under them ... I think you see it is a consideration too.
We were working from another theory which was not mine. My theory is crystal clear on the matter. I've got my own thread on it. Dear dear dear.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2015, 10:46:54 PM
So you're assuming the child covered themselves after 8 30 even though KM already said she thought they were covered ?
IMO the child was probably under the bedcovers at 7.15pm Mercury.
Here is a logic problem a child of 3 could solve. Question: A child is in bed. Later the child is not in bed. What happened? Answer: The child got out of bed.
Why people feel the need to make ridiculous theories about chloroform or abductors or hypnotists or no-one being on the bed to start with is a mystery.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 11:04:49 PM
IMO the child was probably under the bedcovers at 7.15pm Mercury.
Here is a logic problem a child of 3 could solve. Question: A child is in bed. Later the child is not in bed. What happened? Answer: The child got out of bed.
Why people feel the need to make ridiculous theories about chloroform or abductors or hypnotists or no-one being in the bed to start with is a mystery.
When the child got out of bed and moved the door for the first time, why didn't she notice her mum & dad were missing? When she returned to bed, why didn't she get back under the covers?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 21, 2015, 11:06:14 PM
IMO the child was probably under the bedcovers at 7.15pm Mercury.
Here is a logic problem a child of 3 could solve. Question: A child is in bed. Later the child is not in bed. What happened? Answer: The child got out of bed.
Why people feel the need to make ridiculous theories about chloroform or abductors or hypnotists or no-one being in the bed to start with is a mystery.
I think the major flaw in your theory is that there was no sign of the child after the last definite sighting of her by her father.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 11:09:59 PM
IMO the child was probably under the bedcovers at 7.15pm Mercury.
Here is a logic problem a child of 3 could solve. Question: A child is in bed. Later the child is not in bed. What happened? Answer: The child got out of bed.
Why people feel the need to make ridiculous theories about chloroform or abductors or hypnotists or no-one being in the bed to start with is a mystery.
only going by their statements ref bed covers
tHere is no mystery, when the McCann supporters resort to a hypnotist at large (preferably with a laundry bag,and holding keys, and looking like Hewlett 30 years ago eg or any other permutations) that "feasibly" went into 5a the night before to hypnotise the child and returned the next night to give a command "come with me" and also drugged them for hours and hours that it was "feasible" again the child was left somewhere that night and removed the next day, you know they have lost the plot at the very least
now I know you thnk MM woke and wondered, but you won't tell what next...but you may not have a strong theory in that so that's ok
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 11:11:24 PM
When the child got out of bed and moved the door for the first time, why didn't she notice her mum & dad were missing? When she returned to bed, why didn't she get back under the covers?
She wasn't under the covers according to Gerry at any time
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 11:23:30 PM
When the child got out of bed and moved the door for the first time, why didn't she notice her mum & dad were missing? When she returned to bed, why didn't she get back under the covers?
I may reexamine the hypothesis (that the door moved a first time) later. But in that scenario, the answer to your first question would be: This situation would have become accustomed in the previous 4 evenings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 11:25:09 PM
She wasn't under the covers according to Gerry at any time
Take a look at the crime scene photo of Madeleine's bed. The bedcovers are folded back on one side. The pillow is indented in the middle. If a child is left on top of the bed to go to sleep, the covers would not have been folded back. I don't know about anyone else's children, but mine were always under the covers to sleep, even during heatwaves - and it certainly wasn't heatwave weather in PdL that week.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 11:29:17 PM
Take a look at the crime scene photo of Madeleine's bed. The bedcovers are folded back on one side. The pillow is indented in the middle. If a child is left on top of the bed to go to sleep, the covers would not have been folded back. I don't know about anyone else's children, but mine were always under the covers to sleep, even during heatwaves - and it certainly wasn't heatwave weather in PdL that week.
That proves nothing..if anything though, you'd have to explain how an abductor removed a child from under the covers and left them so bloody neat and only just turned over..,,..take it up with Gerry, his words not mine
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 21, 2015, 11:34:20 PM
Take a look at the crime scene photo of Madeleine's bed. The bedcovers are folded back on one side. The pillow is indented in the middle. If a child is left on top of the bed to go to sleep, the covers would not have been folded back. I don't know about anyone else's children, but mine were always under the covers to sleep, even during heatwaves - and it certainly wasn't heatwave weather in PdL that week.
From the pic: Plenty of room for the abductor to hide in there. (reference a theory being put about earlier) My perception is he would be as unobtrusive as an alligator in a bath.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 11:37:09 PM
Take a look at the crime scene photo of Madeleine's bed. The bedcovers are folded back on one side. The pillow is indented in the middle. If a child is left on top of the bed to go to sleep, the covers would not have been folded back. I don't know about anyone else's children, but mine were always under the covers to sleep, even during heatwaves - and it certainly wasn't heatwave weather in PdL that week.
I agree with you Misty, the child was under the covers. From that , two deductions....
1. If a person lifted the child from the bed, that person would first pull down the covers, because otherwise it is not possible to lift. So the PJ photo would show covers pulled down much more - by almost a child length. Therefore no-one lifted the child from the bed.
2. If a person staged the covers to look like the child had been lifted from the bed, that person would have pulled the covers down much more - by almost a child length - to make it look like someone had lifted the child. Therefore no-one staged the covers to look like someone lifted the child from the bed.
The answer is the child got out of bed herself IMO. There was no abductor, and there was no staging in this room, the scene was exactly as the witness truthfully described at about 10pm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 11:38:54 PM
I may reexamine the hypothesis (that the door moved a first time) later. But in that scenario, the answer to your first question would be: This situation would have become accustomed in the previous 4 evenings.
There was no indication that Madeleine had got out of bed whilst the parents were dining during the previous 4 evenings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 11:40:01 PM
yes Alice, the abductor hid behind the see through cots and Gerry didn't notice him though he noticed the windows and shutter and curtains were shut...and didn't smell him either if he was the smelly fat stomached Arsenal shirt wearer that plagued the algarve or smelt any chloroform or get knocked out by it himself.....AND didn't hear any derren brown hypnotic commands when in there
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 11:42:26 PM
I agree with you Misty, the child was under the covers. From that , two deductions....
1. If a person lifted the child from the bed, that person would first pull down the covers, because otherwise it is not possible to lift. So the PJ photo would show covers pulled down much more - by almost a child length. Therefore no-one lifted the child from the bed.
2. If a person staged the covers to look like the child had been lifted from the bed, that person would have pulled the covers down much more - by almost a child length - to make it look like someone had lifted the child. Therefore no-one staged the covers to look like someone lifted the child from the bed.
The answer is the child got out of bed herself IMO.
.........or someone staged it to appear the child got out of the bed herself. Do you believe GM saw Madeleine on top of the covers - that is the crucial question - and also explains 2 door moves if the abductor was interrupted.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 21, 2015, 11:45:59 PM
From the pic: Plenty of room for the abductor to hide in there. (reference a theory being put about earlier) My perception is he would be as unobtrusive as an alligator in a bath.
I agree there was insufficient room for the abductor to hide in there. I believe he/she went into the parents' bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 21, 2015, 11:51:18 PM
There was no indication that Madeleine had got out of bed whilst the parents were dining during the previous 4 evenings.
That's because there were only 3 people there Misty and none of them gave witness statements. It's obvious that the mobile child must have got out of bed sometimes IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 21, 2015, 11:56:13 PM
.........or someone staged it to appear the child got out of the bed herself.
That's silly, why would any abductor do that, honestly...about as convincing as theories the window was opened to let the smell of chloroform out...as if any abductir would care
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 12:07:18 AM
That's silly, why would any abductor do that, honestly...about as convincing as theories the window was opened to let the smell of chloroform out...as if any abductir would care
Most criminals like to make life as difficult as possible for the police to solve a crime. Nitrous Oxide acts in 20 seconds & the kit is small & easily carried. You need ventilation, though.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 12:18:54 AM
.........or someone staged it to appear the child got out of the bed herself. Do you believe GM saw Madeleine on top of the covers - that is the crucial question - and also explains 2 door moves if the abductor was interrupted.
IMO no intruder entered the apartment. So the "intruder hiding in apartment during a check" theory is incorrect IMO But if you are interested in that theory, I can give you a link to another case where an interrupted intruder did hide in a bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 12:20:00 AM
Most criminals like to make life as difficult as possible for the police to solve a crime. Nitrous Oxide acts in 20 seconds & the kit is small & easily carried. You need ventilation, though.
Well I don't know how criminals try to trick police but what use would it be to dissipate any potential smell of a drug in an abduction, I mean how would it help police if they knew a drug was used lol
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 12:28:21 AM
IMO no intruder entered the apartment. So the "intruder hiding in apartment during a check" theory is incorrect IMO But if you are interested in that theory, I can give you a link to another case where an interrupted intruder did hide in a bedroom.
We will agree to differ on the intruder, Pegasus, but, yes please, I would appreciate that link.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 12:34:23 AM
Most criminals like to make life as difficult as possible for the police to solve a crime. Nitrous Oxide acts in 20 seconds & the kit is small & easily carried. You need ventilation, though.
Police are looking for a man with a hypnotist-style goatee carrying an inflated balloon.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 12:41:27 AM
Police are looking for a man with a hypnotist-style goatee carrying an inflated balloon.
Please don't go the same way as the rest of the disrupters on here :)
Seriously, though - check out the kit for nitrous oxide - mask & a very small canister. I was looking at fast-acting safe alternatives to chloroform. There's also a nasal spray form of Midazolam
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 12:43:38 AM
Please don't go the same way as the rest of the disrupters on here :)
Seriously, though - check out the kit for nitrous oxide - mask & a very small canister. I was looking at fast-acting safe alternatives to chloroform. There's also a nasal spray form of Midazolam
Thanks Misty I will have a look. ETA the wiki page about the second one is an interesting read.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 12:50:42 AM
Please don't go the same way as the rest of the disrupters on here :)
Seriously, though - check out the kit for nitrous oxide - mask & a very small canister. I was looking at fast-acting safe alternatives to chloroform. There's also a nasal spray form of Midazolam
so you think a hypnotist is a great theory ? And we awful disrupters make a comment in this silliness? Ok then that makes you even sillier than the hypnotist proclaimed who actually was it in here that suggested this utter tosh in the first place, anyone know?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 12:54:51 AM
so you think a hypnotist is a great theory ? And we awful disrupters make a comment in this silliness? Ok then that makes you even sillier than the hypnotist proclaimed sho actually was it in here that suggested this uttef tosh in the first place, anyone know?
I have not engaged in conversation about hypnotism if you care to view my post history.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 12:59:04 AM
Thanks Misty I will have a look. ETA the wiki page about the second one is an interesting read.
Do you mean the chloroform or Midazolam?
Have just read the story of the "garden gnome" in the wardrobe, aka someone she'd fostered. Did our police really miss his presence?? He's out of jail already by the looks of it. I'm surprised the lady hadn't installed CCTV before. Yelverton is fairly isolated place, surrounded by moorland and not too far from Dartmoor prison.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 02:11:21 AM
Have just read the story of the "garden gnome" in the wardrobe, aka someone she'd fostered. Did our police really miss his presence?? He's out of jail already by the looks of it. I'm surprised the lady hadn't installed CCTV before. Yelverton is fairly isolated place, surrounded by moorland and not too far from Dartmoor prison.
The midaz sometimes used for sleep problems. Yes police in that other case failed to find an intruder hiding in the wardrobe.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 02:21:11 AM
The midaz sometimes used for sleep problems. Yes police in that other case failed to find an intruder hiding in the wardrobe.
It's not something you'd routinely give to a child. I've had the IV form several times and it certainly makes you sleep! And that's where I'm off to now. Night, Pegasus.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 02:41:07 AM
... Have just read the story of the "garden gnome" in the wardrobe ...
For an intruder to hide in the apartment during the 9.05 check the best places are the adult bedroom wardrobe or the child bedroom wardrobe, and less good is behind the child bedroom door. But really that theory does not fit the facts. It does nothing to explain the open window and shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 02:46:58 AM
For an intruder to hide in the apartment during the 9.05 check the best places are the adult bedroom wardrobe or the child bedroom wardrobe, and less good is behind the child bedroom door. But really that theory does not fit the facts. It does nothing to explain the open window and shutter.
Brietta thinks the abductor hid behind the see through cots lol and that the window was open but Gerald said in his statement Windows shutters curtains all closed at 9 15
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 03:02:05 AM
Brietta thinks the abductor hid behind the see through cots lol and that the window was open but Gerald said in his statement Windows shutters curtains all closed at 9 15
At the end of the 9.05pm check, the bedroom door was left almost closed. At the start of the 9.30pm check, the bedroom door was much wider open. Therefore between those two checks, the only mobile person in the apartment opened that door to go through it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2015, 08:17:22 AM
Most criminals like to make life as difficult as possible for the police to solve a crime. Nitrous Oxide acts in 20 seconds & the kit is small & easily carried. You need ventilation, though.
It can't be administered directly from the canister. Users put it into a balloon or a whipped cream container and inhale from that. The effects last for............a few seconds.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 08:18:56 AM
Fair enough ... there are quite a few ... but here is one for starters ... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=18.0
Sorry for some reason the link doesn't appear to be linking as it should ... but the conversation went as follows ...
42Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. / Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window? « on: September 17, 2015, 08:11:58 AM »
Quote from: Brietta on September 16, 2015, 11:50:35 PM She would have been groggy and sleepy ... and curious about the noise bearing in mind she probably hadn't heard the blind being raised before. Why would she have thought there was danger and she was in need of assistance? There is a probability she approached the window.
If she had run as you think she may ... why did she vanish?
To which Pathfinder replied
Were the curtains open as in early statements or closed and whooshed as in later ones? Was Madeleine on top of the covers because it was hot like Gerry said or under them because it was cold like Kate said?
Which is as I claimed in my original post ...
"I recall you in particular posting in a derisory way about the door positioning and Madeleine being at first under the blankets on a night considered cool by her mother then later on top of the bedding when seen by her father." http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1868.msg274093#msg274093
PF posed some questions and not in a derisory way.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2015, 09:31:57 AM
Let's clear this up once and for all.
He says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, she was completely uncovered, that is, lying on top of the covers.
Brietta thinks the abductor hid behind the see through cots lol and that the window was open but Gerald said in his statement Windows shutters curtains all closed at 9 15
Be so kind as to look at the crime scene photographs as I have prior to making my post. Please note that in the fawn coloured cot which is less visible from the bedroom door opaque material has been used.
The blue coloured cot is indeed "see through" ... the fawn coloured cot most definitely is not and I am surprised with your familiarity of the case you are ignorant of that fact.
You will note that it would be perfectly possible for an intruder to crouch down in a darkened room between the window and the cot and remain hidden from view by the opaque panel.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 09:46:50 AM
PF posed some questions and not in a derisory way.
That is a matter of opinion ...
However the poster denied that any such mention had been made at all ... not that it was as my recall claimed "derisory" ... that is an argument you appear to be championing.
There has been much made of this trivia but in my defence of the term "derisory" perhaps you would be able to find a post made by this poster mentioning something positive about the Drs McCann ... collectively or individually. Off the top of my head I can't think of one.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 09:54:37 AM
He says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, she was completely uncovered, that is, lying on top of the covers.
When Madeleine McCann was tucked up in bed ... she was under the covers.
When her father saw her on his check she was still fast asleep but she was lying on top of the covers. There is evidence the door had been moved.
The discussion was not about what we know ... the discussion was about the reason for open window ... and the significance of Madeleine being on top of the covers which could have been due to an intruder lifting her ~ being disturbed ~ and putting her there.
All perfectly reasonable and possible and not really a cause for contention.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 22, 2015, 10:51:12 AM
Be so kind as to look at the crime scene photographs as I have prior to making my post. Please note that in the fawn coloured cot which is less visible from the bedroom door opaque material has been used.
The blue coloured cot is indeed "see through" ... the fawn coloured cot most definitely is not and I am surprised with your familiarity of the case you are ignorant of that fact.
You will note that it would be perfectly possible for an intruder to crouch down in a darkened room between the window and the cot and remain hidden from view by the opaque panel.
Matthew seemed to think both cots had fabric ends. Even so, he managed to see the twins breathing. What a shame Gerald didn't have his x-ray vision. Matthew also saw a bookcase, of course, which I can't find in any of the pictures I've seen. He also saw two windows in the bedroom and the wrong colour curtains. A very unreliable witness imo.
the cots had sort of got that fabric end and sort of a mesh side, so you could see the sides and you could see them, erm, see them breathing
sofas here and you've got a bookcase here
they're similar curtains to the ones you've got in there, and you just get an impression of just like green and yellow, but they were closed, they weren't sort of blowing about, http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-ROGATORY.htm
He states that the bedroom has two windows. The twins occupy two cots placed in the middle of the room http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD.htm
window curtains - green in colour http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 22, 2015, 11:34:19 AM
However the poster denied that any such mention had been made at all ... not that it was as my recall claimed "derisory" ... that is an argument you appear to be championing.
There has been much made of this trivia but in my defence of the term "derisory" perhaps you would be able to find a post made by this poster mentioning something positive about the Drs McCann ... collectively or individually. Off the top of my head I can't think of one.
It is not beholden on any poster to say nice things about everyone involved in this case
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2015, 11:49:45 AM
When Madeleine McCann was tucked up in bed ... she was under the covers.
When her father saw her on his check she was still fast asleep but she was lying on top of the covers. There is evidence the door had been moved.
The discussion was not about what we know ... the discussion was about the reason for open window ... and the significance of Madeleine being on top of the covers which could have been due to an intruder lifting her ~ being disturbed ~ and putting her there.
All perfectly reasonable and possible and not really a cause for contention.
This was about the check:
He says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. (GM)
Same position on top of covers as beginning of the night.
With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down. (GM)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 03:26:47 PM
Be so kind as to look at the crime scene photographs as I have prior to making my post. Please note that in the fawn coloured cot which is less visible from the bedroom door opaque material has been used.
The blue coloured cot is indeed "see through" ... the fawn coloured cot most definitely is not and I am surprised with your familiarity of the case you are ignorant of that fact.
You will note that it would be perfectly possible for an intruder to crouch down in a darkened room between the window and the cot and remain hidden from view by the opaque panel.
Yes but in your photo look at the bedcovers. It is quite obvious that the child was under the covers. If the child had not been under the covers, the covers would not be pulled down as we see in the photo.
And it's obvious that the child sat up and got out of bed by herself - because the slightly down position of the covers in the photo says that. If someone had lifted her out of bed the covers would be much further down.
So there is no need at all to imagine the presence of any intruder in this room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2015, 05:08:26 PM
Yes but in your photo look at the bedcovers. It is quite obvious that the child was under the covers. If the child had not been under the covers, the covers would not be pulled down as we see in the photo.
And it's obvious that the child sat up and got out of bed by herself - because the slightly down position of the covers in the photo says that. If someone had lifted her out of bed the covers would be much further down.
So there is no need at all to imagine the presence of any intruder in this room.
Not according to the father. This a signed statement.
----- With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down. With respect to the other bed next to the window in the children's bedroom he says that it showed no signs that anyone had put their feet on it, namely, dirt or shoe prints.
---- He says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, she was completely uncovered, that is, lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and the blanket, both pink, next to her head, not knowing if they were placed in the position in which one can see them in the photograph attached to the files.
Yes but in your photo look at the bedcovers. It is quite obvious that the child was under the covers. If the child had not been under the covers, the covers would not be pulled down as we see in the photo.
And it's obvious that the child sat up and got out of bed by herself - because the slightly down position of the covers in the photo says that. If someone had lifted her out of bed the covers would be much further down.
So there is no need at all to imagine the presence of any intruder in this room.
On the last occasion Madeleine McCann's father ever saw her ... she was lying soundly asleep on the top of her bed covers. In my opinion ... she had already been lifted from her bed by an intruder who was disturbed by her father's entry.
The big flaw in your theory is ... what happened to Madeleine after she had taken fright and bolted? ... where is she? ... why was she not found?
There is no doubt Madeleine McCann was abducted which is why the police are looking for that abductor and anyone associated with him or her.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 22, 2015, 07:49:59 PM
On the last occasion Madeleine McCann's father ever saw her ... she was lying soundly asleep on the top of her bed covers. In my opinion ... she had already been lifted from her bed by an intruder who was disturbed by her father's entry.
The big flaw in your theory is ... what happened to Madeleine after she had taken fright and bolted? ... where is she? ... why was she not found?
There is no doubt Madeleine McCann was abducted which is why the police are looking for that abductor and anyone associated with him or her.
Don't seem to have found any evidence to support that idea despite their best efforts.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 07:50:03 PM
On the last occasion Madeleine McCann's father ever saw her ... she was lying soundly asleep on the top of her bed covers. In my opinion ... she had already been lifted from her bed by an intruder who was disturbed by her father's entry.
The big flaw in your theory is ... what happened to Madeleine after she had taken fright and bolted? ... where is she? ... why was she not found?
There is no doubt Madeleine McCann was abducted which is why the police are looking for that abductor and anyone associated with him or her.
There is every doubt she was abducted.
Name me one piece of evidence that would stand up in court as regards that.
Don't bother with the 'belief' .
That won't stand scrutiny.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 07:56:00 PM
Not according to the father. This a signed statement.
----- With respect to the bed where his daughter was on the night she disappeared he says that she slept uncovered, as usual when she was hot, with the bedclothes folded down. With respect to the other bed next to the window in the children's bedroom he says that it showed no signs that anyone had put their feet on it, namely, dirt or shoe prints.
---- He says that with respect to Madeleine she was in the same position in which he had left her at the beginning of the night. Madeleine was lying down on her left side, she was completely uncovered, that is, lying on top of the covers, with the soft toy and the blanket, both pink, next to her head, not knowing if they were placed in the position in which one can see them in the photograph attached to the files.
I like physical evidence Pathfinder. The position of the bedcovers (and the absence of a child) in the PJ photo says clearly imo that a child had slept under the covers, then awoke, sat up, and got out of bed, and did not return.
But why are you debating whether the child was under or on top of the covers Pathfinder? Your theory states that the child was never on or in that bed or even in that bedroom that evening doesn't it?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 08:13:15 PM
Be so kind as to look at the crime scene photographs as I have prior to making my post. Please note that in the fawn coloured cot which is less visible from the bedroom door opaque material has been used.
The blue coloured cot is indeed "see through" ... the fawn coloured cot most definitely is not and I am surprised with your familiarity of the case you are ignorant of that fact.
You will note that it would be perfectly possible for an intruder to crouch down in a darkened room between the window and the cot and remain hidden from view by the opaque panel.
You only think all that because you're invested in Tannerman, now, perhaps you would also be so kind as to explain how, if your theory is true, did Gerry McCann state that on his check the window and shutters and curtains were closed if you believe the abductor opened the shutters and window before he picked the child up...or you can just leave it
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 10:08:38 PM
Don't seem to have found any evidence to support that idea despite their best efforts.
So there are two professional investigations happening at present both of which are looking for an abductor ... maybe you should take steps to contact them to point out the error of their ways.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 22, 2015, 10:09:44 PM
So there are two professional investigations happening at present both of which are looking for an abductor ... maybe you should take steps to contact them to point out the error of their ways.
and tbey haven't found a dicky bird.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 22, 2015, 10:11:31 PM
You only think all that because you're invested in Tannerman, now, perhaps you would also be so kind as to explain how, if your theory is true, did Gerry McCann state that on his check the window and shutters and curtains were closed if you believe the abductor opened the shutters and window before he picked the child up...or you can just leave it
You only think all that because you're invested in Tannerman, now, perhaps you would also be so kind as to explain how, if your theory is true, did Gerry McCann state that on his check the window and shutters and curtains were closed if you believe the abductor opened the shutters and window before he picked the child up...or you can just leave it
Gerry didn't notice the shutters up. Would he have noticed a different light level, given he had undertaken no visual checks during the week? MO didn't notice the shutters up, but he did notice the room was perhaps lighter than it should have been. Perhaps the clue there is that he saw the curtains as green & yellow, rather than blue & white, so consistent with the amber light shining through. KM didn't notice the shutters up at first. I don't know if she had performed any visual checks during the week. It was only because of the curtains whooshing (and Madeleine missing) that she checked behind the curtains.
So 3 people failed to notice the shutters were up after 9.05pm - meaning they could have been opened at any time after that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 10:20:59 PM
Gerry didn't notice the shutters up. Would he have noticed a different light level, given he had undertaken no visual checks during the week? MO didn't notice the shutters up, but he did notice the room was perhaps lighter than it should have been. Perhaps the clue there is that he saw the curtains as green & yellow, rather than blue & white, so consistent with the amber light shining through. KM didn't notice the shutters up at first. I don't know if she had performed any visual checks during the week. It was only because of the curtains whooshing (and Madeleine missing) that she checked behind the curtains.
So 3 people failed to notice the shutters were up after 9.05pm - meaning they could have been opened at any time after that.
As usual Misty ~ an excellent synopsis.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 10:33:32 PM
MO didn't notice the shutters up, but he did notice the room was perhaps lighter than it should have been.
Should have been? who was HE to say what should have been? he made an internal check (for some reason) once and was in no position to state what should or shouldn't have been
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 10:44:30 PM
Should have been? who was HE to say what should have been? he made an internal check (for some reason) once and was in no position to state what should or shouldn't have been
His own bedroom in the adjoining apartment had a window which faced in the same direction as the McCann childrens' bedroom and was located within a few metres. That would have given MO a reasonable position to state what he did.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 10:46:31 PM
His own bedroom in the adjoining apartment had a window which faced in the same direction as the McCann childrens' bedroom and was located within a few metres. That would have given MO a reasonable position to state what he did.
Well no, as any indoor lighting may have been different,to HIS place, the fact is MOs statement is so vague it's hardly worth bothering with There really is no evidence at all that any shutter was up and window opened in their statements
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2015, 11:10:09 PM
What's excellent? That shutters could be up on Gerry's check when Matt had just been outside that window and they were shut. And all the checkers that went though the car park didn't notice them. Why would shutters be up and no window open like on Matt's check. Anyone outside that window couldn't see anybody going inside the apartment from the opposite side. Maybe this shadow had all the luck in the world and can see through walls or maybe not @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:31:47 PM
Thanks, Brietta. Even if the synopsis is jmo, it fits the statements.
You do the research, you evaluate and tie the information together and you give a succinct and easily understood explanation. I have read all of those statements but it never occurred to tie them together in a way that made sense of the conditions on the ground on the night that Madeleine vanished.
Sadie and others made a great job of finding out about lighting and weather conditions. I think your post comparing different statements and in particular ... "he saw the curtains as green & yellow, rather than blue & white, so consistent with the amber light shining through" is spot on.
Who needs HOLMES!! But I think that is precisely the sort of information that could be programmed into it to make better sense of 2007.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 11:37:24 PM
What's excellent? That shutters could be up on Gerry's check when Matt had just been outside that window and they were shut. And all the checkers that went though the car park didn't notice them. Why would shutters be up and no window open like on Matt's check. Anyone outside that window couldn't see anybody going inside the apartment from the opposite side. Maybe this shadow had all the luck in the world and can see through walls or maybe not @)(++(*
After MO had done the 9.05 check, there was a time period during which he walked back around to the Tapas Bar, sat down & the Gerry walked back up to 5a. Please tell me you don't believe that is not enough time for someone to come down from the first floor, open the door to 5a & possibly open the window/shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 22, 2015, 11:41:05 PM
After MO had done the 9.05 check, there was a time period during which he walked back around to the Tapas Bar, sat down & the Gerry walked back up to 5a. Please tell me you don't believe that is not enough time for someone to come down from the first floor, open the door to 5a & possibly open the window/shutter.
There's always time but you need evidence and none exists last time I looked
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 22, 2015, 11:42:46 PM
What's excellent? That shutters could be up on Gerry's check when Matt had just been outside that window and they were shut. And all the checkers that went though the car park didn't notice them. Why would shutters be up and no window open like on Matt's check. Anyone outside that window couldn't see anybody going inside the apartment from the opposite side. Maybe this shadow had all the luck in the world and can see through walls or maybe not @)(++(*
Just because Misty's research allows different conclusions from anything you subscribe to don't undervalue her or dismiss what she says in such a cavalier fashion. Her posts are always logical, well researched and thought through.
At least you make the effort to give reasons for your rebuttal but you cannot deny that Misty is one powerful poster who can knock the rest of us into a cocked hat.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 22, 2015, 11:45:07 PM
Just because Misty's research allows different conclusions from anything you subscribe to don't undervalue her or dismiss what she says in such a cavalier fashion. Her posts are always logical, well researched and thought through.
At least you make the effort to give reasons for your rebuttal but you cannot deny that Misty is one powerful poster who can knock the rest of us into a cocked hat.
mIstys posts are interesting and thought provoking but never have any evidence which is the prime requisite to move forward
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 22, 2015, 11:47:59 PM
His own bedroom in the adjoining apartment had a windowtwo windows which faced in the same direction...
Yes, you're right, it had 2 windows, one narrow, one wider like MM's. I would have added the quotes from MO & RO about the shutters being down all week & the room being kept dark for Grace to sleep in the afternoons but facts like that seem to make certain people's eyes glaze & brains fog. As MO & RO slept in the same room as Grace, I think MO was more than qualified to comment on light conditions in the adjoining bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 22, 2015, 11:49:42 PM
Light got through the open slats. No shutters were up and no window was open on Matt's check. He noticed the other shutter being up so that means the curtains were open. Why? It's elementary - it shows that door was used and somebody forgot to close the curtains when leaving. Matt comes next and discovers all these little vital clues unintentionally. The truth is always there it's just a case of discovering it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 12:01:45 AM
Yes, you're right, it had 2 windows, one narrow, one wider like MM's. I would have added the quotes from MO & RO about the shutters being down all week & the room being kept dark for Grace to sleep in the afternoons but facts like that seem to make certain people's eyes glaze & brains fog. As MO & RO slept in the same room as Grace, I think MO was more than qualified to comment on light conditions in the adjoining bedroom.
Yes two, but he thought there was only one. Is it possible that at about 9pm he listened at one window of 5B bedroom, and then listened at the other window of 5B bedroom (thinking it was 5A bedroom)? If so, he might not see 5A window and shutter (because the building juts out there).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 12:05:03 AM
Light got through the open slats. No shutters were up and no window was open on Matt's check. He noticed the other shutter being up so that means the curtains were open. Why? It's elementary - it shows that door was used and somebody forgot to close the curtains when leaving. Matt comes next and discovers all these little vital clues unintentionally. The truth is always there it's just a case of discovering it.
Please provide the Portuguese text referring to the Master Bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 12:11:56 AM
Yes two, but he thought there was only one. Is it possible that at about 9pm he listened at one window of 5B bedroom, and then listened at the other window of 5B bedroom (thinking it was 5A bedroom)? If so, he might not see 5A window and shutter (because the building juts out there).
He knew the front door was recessed around the corner so I think he'd be pretty dumb to check the wrong window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 23, 2015, 12:23:07 AM
Please provide the Portuguese text referring to the Master Bedroom.
That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master' bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open. (MO 4 May 2007)
I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'. (MO Rog)
(Matt) poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kates room, just saw there was a double bed there. (RO Rog)
Que, nessa altura pareceu-lhe que a persiana da janela do quarto de casal estava aberta, desconhecendo se a janela estava aberta.
That at that time it seemed that the master bedroom window shutter was open, not knowing if the window was open.
That it seemed to him that the shutters of the Master' bedroom window were open without knowing if the window was also open. (MO 4 May 2007)
I remember sort of being able to pivot here and be able to see this room door was open as well and those shutters weren't down, they were just curtains and that was fairly, fairly light as well. And I just sort of came back out really through the same way and shutting the patio doors'. (MO Rog)
(Matt) poked his head, well you know kind of looked into Gerry and Kates room, just saw there was a double bed there. (RO Rog)
Que, nessa altura pareceu-lhe que a persiana da janela do quarto de casal estava aberta, desconhecendo se a janela estava aberta.
That at that time it seemed that the master bedroom window shutter was open, not knowing if the window was open.
2 single beds pushed together looks like a double bed and they were Rachel's words not Matt's.
Yes - and he missed the missing headboard on part of the bed. Just as his quick glance did not absorb the correct state of the patio door & shutters in the room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 23, 2015, 01:25:17 AM
Yes - and he missed the missing headboard on part of the bed. Just as his quick glance did not absorb the correct state of the patio door & shutters in the room.
He wasn't investigating a crime at the time but he noticed enough and not a moving door 8(0(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 07:08:34 AM
He wasn't investigating a crime at the time but he noticed enough and not a moving door 8(0(*
Obviously MO did not see the child bedroom door moving. But he did see the child bedroom door open plenty wide enough for a child to have walked out of the room.
The open child bedroom door seen at about 9.30pm is obviously the result of the child pulling it open to walk into another room. Why people of both sides insist on inventing incredibly complicated alternative solutions for it is a mystery IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 23, 2015, 07:34:18 AM
Gerry didn't notice the shutters up. Would he have noticed a different light level, given he had undertaken no visual checks during the week? MO didn't notice the shutters up, but he did notice the room was perhaps lighter than it should have been. Perhaps the clue there is that he saw the curtains as green & yellow, rather than blue & white, so consistent with the amber light shining through. KM didn't notice the shutters up at first. I don't know if she had performed any visual checks during the week. It was only because of the curtains whooshing (and Madeleine missing) that she checked behind the curtains.
So 3 people failed to notice the shutters were up after 9.05pm - meaning they could have been opened at any time after that.
Behind the curtains that were open?
She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 07:42:15 AM
She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did. http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
That is seriously inaccurate paraphrasing by the translator at the interview. KM had never closed the window in the entire holiday, nor closed the shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 23, 2015, 08:12:03 AM
That is seriously inaccurate paraphrasing by the translator at the interview. KM had never closed the window in the entire holiday, nor closed the shutter.
The point of my post (in answer to misty) is that Kate didn't need to 'check behind the curtains' because they were open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 23, 2015, 08:20:27 AM
I doubt that the Portuguese interpreter lady attempting to get the gist on 4 May of what Kate was trying to explain did either, which then may well have been recorded by the police officer as "curtains open".
Open in which sense? Drawn apart to the side? Or fluttering forward (i.e. not how they should be hanging straight down without any movement)?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 12:25:01 PM
I doubt that the Portuguese interpreter lady attempting to get the gist on 4 May of what Kate was trying to explain did either, which then may well have been recorded by the police officer as "curtains open".
Open in which sense? Drawn apart to the side? Or fluttering forward (i.e. not how they should be hanging straight down without any movement)?
Kate said open, Gerry said drawn open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 12:56:11 PM
"As I ran back into the children's room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear."
Madeleine p.72 Hardback
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 23, 2015, 12:58:44 PM
"As I ran back into the children's room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear."
Madeleine p.72 Hardback
......good old Mills and Boon
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 01:29:58 PM
"As I ran back into the children's room the closed curtains flew up in a gust of wind. My heart lurched as I saw now that, behind them, the window was wide open and the shutters on the outside raised all the way up. Nausea, terror, disbelief, fear."
Madeleine p.72 Hardback
So, we have "went whoosh" and "flew up".
Neither of those descriptions appear to sound like the curtains had been drawn apart to their extremities on either side of the windows, which is one interpretation of how "open curtains" may have been interpreted in a statement made in chaotic circumstances.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 23, 2015, 02:03:40 PM
Wouldn't it be good to have a definition of "went whoosh"?. Both in terms of noise and movement on which we could all agree. Fat chance there I guess 8(>((
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 23, 2015, 02:19:34 PM
Wouldn't it be good to have a definition of "went whoosh"?. Both in terms of noise and movement on which we could all agree. Fat chance there I guess 8(>((
Any of those Alice?
Whoosh
1. a loud, rushing noise, as of air or water: a great whoosh as the door opened.
2. to move swiftly with a gushing or hissing noise: gusts of wind whooshing down the street. 3. to move (an object, a person, etc.) with a whooshing motion or sound: The storm whooshed the waves over the road.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/whoosh
So The dog went woof the curtains went whoosh
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 23, 2015, 02:24:06 PM
Could be have a measurement of woosh on the Beaufort Scale, do you think? Then we would definitely understand 8(0(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 23, 2015, 02:26:30 PM
I think this preoccupation with the exact words when the statements have been translated twice is more than a tad ridiculous
If there were a definite understanding of the physical occurrence that went with the words you might have a point. So what is your understanding of how the curtains behaved from the description ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 23, 2015, 02:44:50 PM
Wouldn't it be good to have a definition of "went whoosh"?. Both in terms of noise and movement on which we could all agree. Fat chance there I guess 8(>((
And how that was conveyed to the first "interpreter" that morning, and how that general idea got conveyed to the officer noting down the general gist.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 23, 2015, 03:23:53 PM
It wasn't a word it was a sound......So how do you put it into words?
at 14.30
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 23, 2015, 04:26:05 PM
Can anyone explain why an abductor or burglar would open the window and shutters but not the curtains? Those who think Madeleine was lifted from outside are wrong, as are those who think she was passed out through the window. Not with closed curtains she wasn't.
Can anyone explain how the curtains whooshed? One was trapped behind the bed. Did Kate or Gerald McCann tuck it down there at some point?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 23, 2015, 04:37:36 PM
It wasn't a word it was a sound......So how do you put it into words?
at 14.30
Well from KM's description in the video you have linked it is quite clear. She saw the door to the children's room was quite far open pulled the door to, seemingly without looking inside the room, and the door slammed shut. She opened the door again saw M was not there so she went to her[Kate's room] and M was not there either. She returned to M's room where she observed the curtains that had been closed whooshed [billowed?] open. The window was open and the shutter raised; her gesture indicates the curtains billowed into the room. Straightforward enough. The door would slam shut and the curtains billow[my word] by movement of air. The only thing to remember about movement of air is that it always moves from high pressure areas to low pressure areas. So when the door closed and the curtains billowed the HP side was outside the building. Does it do us any good having that knowledge? Maybe not. How does the statement in the video stack up against statements given to the police? Are there any glaring discrepancies? But if the curtains were closed as is suggested in the video it makes the abduction through the window theory very interesting.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 23, 2015, 04:53:54 PM
Well from KM's description in the video you have linked it is quite clear. She saw the door to the children's room was quite far open pulled the door to, seemingly without looking inside the room, and the door slammed shut. She opened the door again saw M was not there so she went to her[Kate's room] and M was not there either. She returned to M's room where she observed the curtains that had been closed whooshed [billowed?] open. The window was open and the shutter raised; her gesture indicates the curtains billowed into the room. Straightforward enough. The door would slam shut and the curtains billow[my word] by movement of air. The only thing to remember about movement of air is that it always moves from high pressure areas to low pressure areas. So when the door closed and the curtains billowed the HP side was outside the building. Does it do us any good having that knowledge? Maybe not. How does the statement in the video stack up against statements given to the police? Are there any glaring discrepancies? But if the curtains were closed as is suggested in the video it makes the abduction through the window theory very interesting.
Good questions Alice. However they have all been gone through so many times already.
I have trouble in my home, with doors slamming and curtains billowing when an outside door is opened. I now have heavy weighted curtains and door stops to alleviate the problem.
The closed curtains and open window is a mystery, that is yet unsolved. Only the person responsible for her disappearance can answer that one.
ETA This is a curtain topic that might be of interest http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3487.msg131723#msg131723
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 23, 2015, 05:00:27 PM
Can anyone explain why an abductor or burglar would open the window and shutters but not the curtains? Those who think Madeleine was lifted from outside are wrong, as are those who think she was passed out through the window. Not with closed curtains she wasn't.
Can anyone explain how the curtains whooshed? One was trapped behind the bed. Did Kate or Gerald McCann tuck it down there at some point?
The photos reflect what the PJ saw when they arrived. Prior to that, furniture had been moved to check if she could have been under or behind anywhere. The position of furniture does not therefore reflect what the first people on the scene actually saw.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 23, 2015, 05:08:42 PM
If you check the left side corner wall. The headboard shows that the bed was not pushed up to the window wall. The curtain(of a light material by the looks of it) is creased for some reason. IMO
He knew the front door was recessed around the corner so I think he'd be pretty dumb to check the wrong window.
IMO the witness had never been to that front door and had never been in that flat and did not know its layout.
If we call the three windows in the photo from right to left X Y and Z.... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1868.0;attach=5714;image Is it possible that maybe he listens at X thinking (correctly) it is bedroom of own flat, then listens at Y thinking (incorrectly) it is bedroom of next-door flat, and does not listen at Z ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 23, 2015, 06:16:45 PM
IMO the witness had never been to that front door and had never been in that flat and did not know its layout.
If we call the three windows in the photo from right to left X Y and Z.... http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1868.0;attach=5714;image Is it possible that maybe he listens at X thinking (correctly) it is bedroom of own flat, then listens at Y thinking (incorrectly) it is bedroom of next-door flat, and does not listen at Z ?
It could have happened as you say ... but I think the layout of the building would have allowed him to notice the shutter of the next window along was raised.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 06:22:18 PM
It could have happened as you say ... but I think the layout of the building would have allowed him to notice the shutter of the next window along was raised.
Given the circumstances, I also think he would have admitted to listening at the wrong window, They were clearly different-sized windows.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 23, 2015, 06:52:04 PM
Good questions Alice. However they have all been gone through so many times already.
I have trouble in my home, with doors slamming and curtains billowing when an outside door is opened. I now have heavy weighted curtains and door stops to alleviate the problem.
The closed curtains and open window is a mystery, that is yet unsolved. Only the person responsible for her disappearance can answer that one.
ETA This is a curtain topic that might be of interest http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=3487.msg131723#msg131723
Matthew saw closed curtains.
He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Kate and Gerry McCann said they were open.
In which case Tannerman wasn't the abductor because the curtains changed from closed to open between 9.30pm and 10pm.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 06:52:46 PM
It could have happened as you say ... but I think the layout of the building would have allowed him to notice the shutter of the next window along was raised.
Possibly, and it might not have been raised that early anyway. Here is why I am curious about which windows were listened at 9.
The optimum time for a burglar to try to open the 5A shutter and window would be just after the parents went out. (Obviously when they leave a burglar would assume there is no-one in). The only reason I can think for a burglar not do it about 8.35pm but wait until later, is if it was too light outside. Was it light outside at 8.35?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 06:56:48 PM
Given the circumstances, I also think he would have admitted to listening at the wrong window, They were clearly different-sized windows.
Yes that is reasonable assumption. But listening at shuttered windows which don't have labels on does require working out indirectly which window is of which room of which flat.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 07:01:45 PM
He recalls having the perception that the window curtains - green in colour - were drawn closed http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MATTHEW-OLDFIELD-10MAY.htm
Kate and Gerry McCann said they were open.
In which case Tannerman wasn't the abductor because the curtains changed from closed to open between 9.30pm and 10pm.
Yes, but, two years later, Kate McCann explained this in the Madeleine was Here c4 documentary, IE, that the window and shutters were open but curtains closed on her 10pm check, but the gust of wind blew them open (I thnk she described the same again when they went on the USA Oprah show)
ETA video links
Oprah Show, description of Kate Mccanns check at 10 pm, from approx 15.30 mins
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 07:06:23 PM
Yes that is reasonable assumption. But listening at shuttered windows which don't have labels on does require working out indirectly which window is of which room of which flat.
I agree. But he listened at 2 of 3 shutters, 2 wide & 1 narrow. Surely the following day he would have quickly realised & admitted he'd listened at the wrong window.
Sunset was 8.23pm, iirc.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 23, 2015, 07:12:32 PM
Given the circumstances, I also think he would have admitted to listening at the wrong window, They were clearly different-sized windows.
If he had listened at the wrong window ... and realised it on reflection he would definitely have said so. These people would have pulled out all the stops on Madeleine's behalf therefore even if it made him look silly he would have admitted the error.
These are the sort of issues that a day set aside for an early reconstitution could have pinned down members of staff, guests and residents to be in the approximate location at the approximate time they thought they were ... what a pity it was not done.
Press intrusion could have been limited by a reminder of the penalties available under the secrecy laws.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 23, 2015, 07:28:03 PM
If he had listened at the wrong window ... and realised it on reflection he would definitely have said so. These people would have pulled out all the stops on Madeleine's behalf therefore even if it made him look silly he would have admitted the error.
These are the sort of issues that a day set aside for an early reconstitution could have pinned down members of staff, guests and residents to be in the approximate location at the approximate time they thought they were ... what a pity it was not done.
Press intrusion could have been limited by a reminder of the penalties available under the secrecy laws.
In fairness to the PJ at the time, I think a reconstitution of the sort required was just too big a task & unfeasible in the early days. They had 24 hours before many holidaymakers would be leaving Luz at the end of their holidays and it must have been a mammoth job to identify & speak to everyone who'd resided in the immediate vicinity that night. And we all know they never identified Crecheman as being in the vicinity or took a statement from Maria Horta who lived right across the road from 5a on the g/f in Block 6,
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 23, 2015, 07:42:37 PM
In fairness to the PJ at the time, I think a reconstitution of the sort required was just too big a task & unfeasible in the early days. They had 24 hours before many holidaymakers would be leaving Luz at the end of their holidays and it must have been a mammoth job to identify & speak to everyone who'd resided in the immediate vicinity that night. And we all know they never identified Crecheman as being in the vicinity or took a statement from Maria Horta who lived right across the road from 5a on the g/f in Block 6,
Impossible to organise a full scale event in that time scale ... but the main players could have been walked through it step by step just as happened later with the three Smiths.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 10:09:18 PM
Yes, but, two years later, Kate McCann explained this in the Madeleine was Here c4 documentary, IE, that the window and shutters were open but curtains closed on her 10pm check, but the gust of wind blew them open (I thnk she described the same again when they went on the USA Oprah show)
ETA video links
Oprah Show, description of Kate Mccanns check at 10 pm, from approx 15.30 mins
Thanks Mercury. It is clear IMO that the curtains were shut. BTW I have said for a long time that IMO this is a completely truthful and innocent witness and by listening to the account we can learn much to solve the case.
There is in the Oprah footage there is a very interesting account to be heard. After discovering that the child is apparently missing, the witness searches the wardrobes. In the context in which the witness speaks IMO this refers to the wardrobes only in the child bedroom. Then the witness rushes out the balcony door to get help from the others.
So at this point in time, when the witness rushes off to get help, there has been no search behind the sofa, and no search in the wardrobes of other bedroom. Therefore the first search of those two locations must have been later.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 10:17:05 PM
You might thnk it is clear Pegasus and that the witness is honest, I beg to differ for a variety of reasons
Both of us could be wrong of course
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 10:52:58 PM
You might thnk it is clear Pegasus and that the witness is honest, I beg to differ for a variety of reasons
Both of us could be wrong of course
Hypothetically even if Amarals theory were correct up to the time when the chat outside the lounge window ends, his opinion of what happened during the 10pm check is drastically wrong - in fact the check was exactly as this honest witness describes - noticed child missing, noticed window and shutter open, quickly looked in the wardrobes of the child bedroom, ran to get help.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 23, 2015, 10:55:49 PM
Hypothetically even if Amarals theory were correct up to the time when the chat outside the lounge window ends, his opinion of what happened during the 10pm check is drastically wrong - in fact the check was exactly as this honest witness describes - noticed child missing, quickly looked in the wardrobes of the child bedroom, ran to get help.
There is no possible way you can know this let alone assert it as true..and it's nothing to do with Amaral or his and the PJ theories
you are at liberty to "believe" the witness though as I am to not, as it isn't a crime to suspect someone is not telling the whole truth for X y z reasons although many here and elsewhere would give me and others the epithet of evil etc etc for even thnking such a horrible thought
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 23, 2015, 11:30:22 PM
There is no possible way you can know this let alone assert it as true..and it's nothing to do with Amaral or his and the PJ theories
Amaral's theory is relevant, because he claims child went into another room for some trivial reason, and that the window and shutter were staged about 45 minutes later. My suggestion is simpler: someone opening the window and shutter from outside was the reason for going into another room. So there is no need to invent staging of the window and shutter, and it means the 10pm checker's account is truthful.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 12:10:23 AM
Amaral's theory is relevant, because he claims child went into another room for some trivial reason, and that the window and shutter were staged about 45 minutes later. My suggestion is simpler: someone opening the window and shutter from outside was the reason for going into another room. So there is no need to invent staging of the window and shutter, and it means the 10pm checker's account is truthful.
Yes, by your theory it's possible but not fact and a credible theory can't ever exonerate a suspect, legal one or otherwise
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 01:08:22 AM
Yes, by your theory it's possible but not fact and a credible theory can't ever exonerate a suspect, legal one or otherwise
The witness enters the apartment and finds that a window and shutter are open and a child is not in the bedroom. It's certainly possible the window and shutter were opened from the outside (the window had no autolock and the shutter had no lock at all). And if that happened it's almost certain the child would awake and leave the room. So it's a very plausible scene and there is no reason to suspect the witness IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 02:11:05 AM
The witness enters the apartment and finds that a window and shutter are open and a child is not in the bedroom. It's certainly possible the window and shutter were opened from the outside (the window had no autolock and the shutter had no lock at all). And if that happened it's almost certain the child would awake and leave the room. So it's a very plausible scene and there is no reason to suspect the witness IMO.r
There are plenty of reasons to suspect the witness! One being a "no comment" answer to her arguido statement questions...err hello?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 02:40:28 AM
I just dont trust that woman, or her husband, is it ok to thnk that? Good.
ETA she never said in two years that those flipping curtains were opened by the bleedin wind...talk about mitigating stories
How does stating that the wind blew the curtains mitigate against anything?
One of the many bad bits of theorising that caused suspicion against this witness was something like this: "there was no damage to the shutter and window, therefore the window and shutter cannot have been opened from outside, therefore this witness opened the window herself". That is rubbish because it is in fact possible to open the window and shutter from outside without damage in about 10 seconds, if the window isn't locked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 24, 2015, 06:09:20 AM
How does stating that the wind blew the curtains mitigate against anything?
One of the many bad bits of theorising that caused suspicion against this witness was something like this: "there was no damage to the shutter and window, therefore the window and shutter cannot have been opened from outside, therefore this witness opened the window herself". That is rubbish because it is in fact possible to open the window and shutter from outside without damage in about 10 seconds, if the window isn't locked.
I thought it went like this;
The witness and her husband told friends and relatives the shutters were forced, which was untrue. The witness and her husband said the curtains were open, later they changed that and said they were closed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 12:37:11 PM
The witness and her husband told friends and relatives the shutters were forced, which was untrue. The witness and her husband said the curtains were open, later they changed that and said they were closed.
Your "The witness and her husband told friends and relatives the shutters were forced, which was untrue" And my "there was no damage to the shutter and window, therefore the window and shutter cannot have been opened from outside, therefore this witness opened the window herself" They both boil down to the same thing - the incorrect deduction (by the parents that night and by police later and even by Mr Amaral's security expert and by some forum people even now) that fully opening the window and shutter from outside is either impossible or requires force. That simply is a wrong deduction, because they can easily be opened from outside with no force no damage if the window lock button is not pressed in. See Heri video for the method - and it can be done much faster than that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 12:47:51 PM
(It's easy to prove this from photos and videos of the real 5A window, but some people still won't believe it)
The default state of the window after you fully close it is: unlocked.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 24, 2015, 01:14:41 PM
(It's easy to prove this from photos and videos of the real 5A window, but some people still won't believe it)
The default state of the window after you fully close it is: unlocked.
I have never used metal shutters, but I have used German wooden ones. I never assumed they provided any security as it was clear that they worked a bit like a roller blind. The strap inside raises and lowers the shutters. Gravity keeps them in place when lowered. Their purpose is to keep out daylight and to keep a room cool in hot weather. During German winters they help keep heat in. German ones have some security function as they are extremely heavy.
The McCanns had a broken shutter previously, so would have an idea how a broken shutter behaved. In particular, they stopped working, which is why OC had to send men out to mend them. The children's bedroom shutter worked fine when Gerald McCann lowered it, so was clearly not broken. They still told people the shutters were broken, although there was no evidence that they were.
The McCanns claimed they never checked the windows to see if they were locked. I would have thought that the default position would be locked as cleaners would understand how the system worked. Pity no-one asked the cleaners what the routine was regarding checking windows on change-over day.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 24, 2015, 01:41:22 PM
How does stating that the wind blew the curtains mitigate against anything?
One of the many bad bits of theorising that caused suspicion against this witness was something like this: "there was no damage to the shutter and window, therefore the window and shutter cannot have been opened from outside, therefore this witness opened the window herself". That is rubbish because it is in fact possible to open the window and shutter from outside without damage in about 10 seconds, if the window isn't locked.
So why did Amaral keeping banging on about the idea that no abduction happened because the shutter wasn't forced. Why didn't he get a GNR officer to see if it could be raised from the outside without force?
And I still don't understand his oft-asserted allegation that Kate's fingerprints were in a window "opening position", when they clearly weren't.
Yet, according to at least one interview (with his pal Moita Flores), the window issue was supposedly a major clue, particularly concerning his allegation of a faked abduction.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 24, 2015, 02:01:34 PM
So why did Amaral keeping banging on about the idea that no abduction happened because the shutter wasn't forced. Why didn't he get a GNR officer to see if it could be raised from the outside without force?
And I still don't understand his oft-asserted allegation that Kate's fingerprints were in a window "opening position", when they clearly weren't.
Yet, according to at least one interview (with his pal Moita Flores), the window issue was supposedly a major clue, particularly concerning his allegation of a faked abduction.
Well there was certainly enough evidence to keep Rebelo on their tail after Amaral's reassignment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 24, 2015, 02:06:58 PM
Well there was certainly enough evidence to keep Rebelo on their tail after Amaral's reassignment.
On the window, you mean? Yes, he appears to have checked the feasibility of someone getting in from the outside (judging by a photo of an officer attempting to get in via the window), knowing that it hadn't been forced. Would that imply that perhaps he got his team to see if it could be opened without force from outside? If not, the exercise would have been a bit pointless in terms of an entry point.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 02:14:07 PM
So why did Amaral keeping banging on about the idea that no abduction happened because the shutter wasn't forced. ...(snip)
Mr Amaral was mistaken in assuming that that the window and shutter couldn't be opened from outside without force. He was also mistaken in assuming that a window and shutter opened from outside equals abduction. Actually if he had realised these two things, he could have greatly improved his theory. IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 02:26:34 PM
(snip) ...Why didn't he get a GNR officer to see if it could be raised from the outside without force? ...(snip)
That test should have been done by the PJ after the window and shutter were examined for fingerprints. It possibly was done. But they failed to solve the probable opening method. This is not just a critisism of the PJ, it is possibly also a critisism of SY. Did AR and NW with their millions of pounds ever bother to get permission and go test in person the actual shutter and window of 5A using the method in Heri video?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 02:36:32 PM
(snip) ... Yet, according to at least one interview (with his pal Moita Flores), the window issue was supposedly a major clue, particularly concerning his allegation of a faked abduction.
Yes his deduction, that the window and shutter were staged, was a big mistake IMO. IMO the window and shutter were opened from outside without force. This means the 10pm checker 100% accurately described the scene. The noise and sight of the window and shutter being opened provides the reason (missing from Amaral's theory) for waking and for going to another room (present in Amaral's theory) IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 05:25:05 PM
That test should have been done by the PJ after the window and shutter were examined for fingerprints. It possibly was done. But they failed to solve the probable opening method. This is not just a critisism of the PJ, it is possibly also a critisism of SY. Did AR and NW with their millions of pounds ever bother to get permission and go test in person the actual shutter and window of 5A using the method in Heri video?
Heri has communicated some of the pertinent results of his research with the law enforcement agencies involved in Madeleine McCann's case. Given his status as an academic I am certain it will have been scrutinised and his findings taken on board.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 05:55:42 PM
Heri has communicated some of the pertinent results of his research with the law enforcement agencies involved in Madeleine McCann's case. Given his status as an academic I am certain it will have been scrutinised and his findings taken on board.
Good. The key fact to note is that the window definitely does not auto-lock. So it can be fully closed and yet completely unlocked. Once one understands that, the method in Heri's video becomes possible and indeed probable, taking only about 10 seconds (much quicker than non-burglar Heri) to change the shutter and window from fully closed to maximum open. IMO this is how the same models of shutter and window were opened at 5G 5L 4A and 5A.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 06:23:17 PM
Good. The key fact to note is that the window definitely does not auto-lock. So it can be fully closed and yet completely unlocked. Once one understands that, the method in Heri's video becomes possible and indeed probable, taking only about 10 seconds (much quicker than non-burglar Heri) to change the shutter and window from fully closed to maximum open. IMO this is how the same models of shutter and window were opened at 5G 5L 4A and 5A.
I can't find any fault in that, Pegasus; although I still lean toward the window and shutter being opened from within; only the person who opened them knows from where and why.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 06:54:40 PM
I can't find any fault in that, Pegasus; although I still lean toward the window and shutter being opened from within; only the person who opened them knows from where and why.
In your abduction scenario Brietta (or indeed in any scenario) it would be pointless to open the window and shutter from inside. My suggestion ( a burglar opens them from outside then is interrupted before climbing in) would cause child goes to another room, and from there it is possible to continue the scenario as either a non-abduction or an abduction.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 09:23:22 PM
How does stating that the wind blew the curtains mitigate against anything?
One of the many bad bits of theorising that caused suspicion against this witness was something like this: "there was no damage to the shutter and window, therefore the window and shutter cannot have been opened from outside, therefore this witness opened the window herself". That is rubbish because it is in fact possible to open the window and shutter from outside without damage in about 10 seconds, if the window isn't locked.
Possibly but the stronger reason is that thiswitness never made any reference to this event for a whole two years and almost a year after the secrecy laws ceased to be in effect post arguido status removal
Also, in no ones statements at the time (2007) was it ever mentioned either...it is a valid observation/question
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 09:29:42 PM
Possibly but the stronger reason is that thiswitness never made any reference to this event for a whole two years and almost a year after the secrecy laws ceased to be in effect post arguido status removal
Also, in no ones statements at the time (2007) was it ever mentioned either...it is a valid observation/question
It would be interesting if we know how many minutes long was KM's 4th May interview to compare that with the length of its transcript in the files. IMO the transcript is probably a much abbreviated summary of the main points and probably omits many of the details she said in the interview?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 09:40:44 PM
It would be interesting if we know how many minutes long was KM's 4th May interview to compare that with the length of its transcript in the files. IMO the transcript is probably a much abbreviated summary of the main points and probably omits many of the details she said in the interview?
It might be interesting overall but not necessarily relevant...I accept its possible the transcripts may have missed some things out, if they did, but it's a funny coincidence that they missed out extremely relevant thngs...another example is Tanner's description in the joint statement of the child's clothing...she didn't see the top well but thought possibly pink. No mention of the child's top in either of her police statements. There are other examples, but never mind, all have an innocent explanation we are told.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 09:50:41 PM
It would be interesting if we know how many minutes long was KM's 4th May interview to compare that with the length of its transcript in the files. IMO the transcript is probably a much abbreviated summary of the main points and probably omits many of the details she said in the interview?
There are things which have paled into insignificance since the PJ and SY found enough new evidence to justify to their political masters that Madeleine McCann's case should be reopened.
Therefore us amateurs puzzling about the mechanics of Madeleine's removal from the scene is logical. Puzzling about what her mother may or may not have said is not. If it was relevant in any way ~ she would have been reconstituted arguida.
She was not ... but other people were.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 24, 2015, 09:56:35 PM
There are things which have paled into insignificance since the PJ and SY found enough new evidence to justify to their political masters that Madeleine McCann's case should be reopened.
Therefore us amateurs puzzling about the mechanics of Madeleine's removal from the scene is logical. Puzzling about what her mother may or may not have said is not. If it was relevant in any way ~ she would have been reconstituted arguida.
She was not ... but other people were.
...and what has come of it ?
More letters of request. 8)-)))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 10:25:42 PM
There are things which have paled into insignificance since the PJ and SY found enough new evidence to justify to their political masters that Madeleine McCann's case should be reopened.
Therefore us amateurs puzzling about the mechanics of Madeleine's removal from the scene is logical. Puzzling about what her mother may or may not have said is not. If it was relevant in any way ~ she would have been reconstituted arguida.
She was not ... but other people were.
It is not illogical to question (possible) red flags or anything at all in any cold case , it is illogical to dictate that it is illogical
And the reason others were made arguidos post reopening of the case were more relevant? I don't thnk so somehow....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 10:41:47 PM
Thankfully Madeleine McCann is the only British pre teen who is missing in a foreign land and who is at long last being looked for by two national law enforcement agencies.
We have been told that we will not be updated on the progress of Madeleine's case; so is there any good reason for your repetitiveness?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 10:51:51 PM
Two small clues. The window at 5A now has external metal security bars fitted. The window at the matching flat in the next block (identical flat and identical window position) has internal sliding locking metal security bars fitted and possibly a window alarm too. Does anyone here still believe that opening from outside by a burglar is impossible, and that the owners have wasted their money installing extra security?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 24, 2015, 11:13:32 PM
Two small clues. The window at 5A now has external metal security bars fitted over it. The window at the matching flat in block 4 (identical flat and identical window position) has sliding locking metal security bars fitted inside it.
A sensible precaution ... but it doesn't explain whether 5A windows were subject to internal or external interference or the reason for it.
Unlikely but possible is that entry was made via the unlocked sliding door and the window opened because it was thought the wooden door was deadlocked. We simply don't know.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 11:23:50 PM
A sensible precaution ... but it doesn't explain whether 5A windows were subject to internal or external interference or the reason for it.
Unlikely but possible is that entry was made via the unlocked sliding door and the window opened because it was thought the wooden door was deadlocked. We simply don't know.
In your scenario, it would have been much easier and quicker to simply test the front door and see if it was deadlocked, instead of opening a noisy shutter from inside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 11:30:00 PM
Two small clues. The window at 5A now has external metal security bars fitted. The window at the matching flat in the next block (identical flat and identical window position) has internal sliding locking metal security bars fitted and possibly a window alarm too. Does anyone here still believe that opening from outside by a burglar is impossible, and that the owners have wasted their money installing extra security?
no one is still denying the shutters there could be opened from outside as per the poster who made that YouTube video doing it
But there are different types sizes and qualities of shutters....not all can be raised easily if at all and without damage, in fact most used are not of this flimsy type..but proper security ones, hence the many posts over the years saying you can't open from outside
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 11:31:41 PM
Added information - the only accessible window at the flat, two floors above 5A, where there was a burglary a few weeks before 5A, now also appears to have external metal security bars fitted.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 11:34:30 PM
no one is still denying the shutters there could be opened from outside as per the poster who made that YouTube video doing it
But there are different types sizes and qualities of shutters....not all can be raised easily if at all and without damage, in fact most used are not of this flimsy type..but proper security ones, hence the many posts over the years saying you can't open from outside
IMO all flats in these two blocks at construction were fitted with identical model windows and shutters.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 24, 2015, 11:36:55 PM
In your scenario, it would have been much easier and quicker to simply test the front door and see if it was deadlocked, instead of opening a noisy shutter from inside.
It is my opinion that the intruder used a key to open the wooden front door.
However had the intruder entered via the sliding door it was for one reason and one reason only ... therefore speed was of the essence ... no time to faff around checking doors. Perhaps it was even coordinated with an accomplice raising the outside shutter and opening the window as the lounge was crossed, the child lifted and passed through?
We simply do not know. The only hard and fast thing that we do know is that when her mother checked on her at 10.00pm Madeleine McCann was missing from her bed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 24, 2015, 11:49:58 PM
So? that has nothng to do with my explanatory post to you
Yes I understand your post. But if any people have based their views on other designs of shutters and windows then obviously they would need to look at the relevant designs as fitted in blocks 5 and 4 instead. For example the Dispatches program examined a completely different shutter design in a flat in in the Estrela complex, an electric shutter with a remote control, therefore it was inevitable they would not solve the opening method.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 12:01:13 AM
I always thought burglars' primary interest is what's inside a property worth stealing, How to achieve the objective is a secondary consideration.
At 5A the burglar couldn't see in so his assumption would be simply that there would be a few things in the apartment maybe some currency a camera some jewellery. His main concerns would be that the occupants are out and his method of entry.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 12:10:04 AM
Yes I understand your post. But if any people have based their views on other designs of shutters and windows then obviously they would need to look at the relevant designs as fitted in blocks 5 and 4 instead. For example the Dispatches program examined a completely different shutter design in a flat in in the Estrela complex, an electric shutter with a remote control, therefore it was inevitable they would not solve the opening method.
No Pegasus, my point was that most shutters are normally more heavy duty, so people made their posts/comments, if they didn't consult architects digest for the algarve at the time is neither here nor there lol
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2015, 12:14:30 AM
At 5A the burglar couldn't see in so his assumption would be simply that there would be a few things in the apartment maybe some currency a camera some jewellery. His main concerns would be that the occupants are out and his method of entry.
You believe he was interrupted & left, empty-handed. Why no other burglaries/attempted burglaries - the night was young?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 12:16:28 AM
It is my opinion that the intruder used a key to open the wooden front door.
However had the intruder entered via the sliding door it was for one reason and one reason only ... therefore speed was of the essence ... no time to faff around checking doors. Perhaps it was even coordinated with an accomplice raising the outside shutter and opening the window as the lounge was crossed, the child lifted and passed through?
We simply do not know. The only hard and fast thing that we do know is that when her mother checked on her at 10.00pm Madeleine McCann was missing from her bed. We simply do not know...
If someone entered through the front door he would exit through the front door IMO. If someone entered through the sliding door it would take him only 3 seconds to check the front door isn't deadlocked and he would exit through the front door IMO.
...The only hard and fast thing that we do know is that when her mother checked on her at 10.00pm Madeleine McCann was missing from her bed.
Agreed and I would add a little more information by saying "was missing from her bedroom" because the witness as well as looking on the bed also looked in the wardrobes of the child bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 12:20:15 AM
You believe he was interrupted & left, empty-handed. Why no other burglaries/attempted burglaries - the night was young?
Never thought of that.
We have reports of people being out for the evening some of whom must have been getting ready to leave which is a traditional time for burglars to strike in a holiday resort. No reported or attempted burglaries either earlier in the evening or later.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 12:30:28 AM
No Pegasus, my point was that most shutters are normally more heavy duty, so people made their posts/comments, if they didn't consult architects digest for the algarve at the time is neither here nor there lol
If people based their views on heavier duty shutters than fitted at blocks 5 and 4, or on shutters that lock, or on electric shutters like Dispatches, or on windows that autolock, then yes it's understandable they might conclude that opening from outside was impossible for the designs they examined.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 12:39:40 AM
You believe he was interrupted & left, empty-handed. Why no other burglaries/attempted burglaries - the night was young?
Yes interrupted and left empty handed before entering IMO. From the nature of the interruption it would be obvious to him that adults might appear very soon therefore there is absolutely no possibility he would stay around to try other apartments.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2015, 01:04:05 AM
Yes interrupted and left empty handed before entering IMO. From the nature of the interruption it would be obvious to him that adults might appear very soon therefore there is absolutely no possibility he would stay around to try other apartments.
Scuttling away from Block 5 is one thing. There were plenty of other blocks/houses in the vicinity for him to try.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 01:16:47 AM
Scuttling away from Block 5 is one thing. There were plenty of other blocks/houses in the vicinity for him to try.
Given the way in which he was disturbed, he would predict that GNR would certainly be called and might arrive very soon, and IMO he would not try any other property in the whole town Misty.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2015, 01:19:47 AM
At 5A the burglar couldn't see in so his assumption would be simply that there would be a few things in the apartment maybe some currency a camera some jewellery. His main concerns would be that the occupants are out and his method of entry.
What time? There was no wide open window at 9:30 as Kate claimed she later discovered. Matt returned to the table and told Jane that her daughter was ill. She quickly finished her main course and left minutes later passing through the car park. Russell returned passing through the car park only 5 minutes after to have his main course which he hardly touched because of the alarm being raised by Kate. No valuables were stolen (they don't take kids) and no glove marks found. And to think the parents left their kids alone in that room for 5 nights in a row and not once checked if the window was locked is not credible. SY only have to ask the cleaner if the window was locked because there was no evidence found of it being forced or used at all. A window facing the world or a recessed door exit.
"The McCanns knew that I was going to catch them", 20 October 2008
Moita Flores - Your determination is to get even with those who worked for the McCanns. They've mistreated you.
GA - Believe me, I feel no rage, I'm not even angry. I have understood their game and you also know how this game works. The lies about me, the manipulation is not exactly against the citizen Gonçalo Amaral. They were against the investigator who knew their weaknesses and was going to catch them sooner or later. It was all a matter of time. The McCanns knew that I was going to get them. As you could see, all it took was for the process to be archived in order for everything to be finished. At this moment in time, I'm convinced that they don't even remember my name anymore. So the game is always the same. We want to catch them, they want to escape, and that's it. Sometimes the bandits win, sometimes the policemen do. This time around, and concerning this case, it was how it was. They stopped insulting me, they stopped the campaigns to find their daughter, it's over. They got what they wanted and therefore, peace is back.
MF – And you launch a "grenade" that is called The Truth of the Lie into the midst of that peace. Whoever reads your testimony is left with few doubts about the little girl's destiny. She died in the apartment.
GA – Do you doubt it?
MF – No. Neither I nor the older people who used to work with me. When this happened, I was in Greece and I heard the news through an English channel. The story was so badly told, that only a naive or silly person would believe it. As a matter of fact, when I arrived, I had dinner with several already retired colleagues that worked in homicides, and their opinion was the same. The detail about the window killed the version. Nobody passes through that narrow window space carrying a child.
GA – The window made me doubt. And not only that.
MF – But I do insist on the window. The mother said that she never touched it.
GA – That she never even opened it.
MF – Now, when I read the process, I realised that her fingerprints were on it. And positioned in a manner that coincides with an opening movement.
GA – It was with that, with Kate's fingerprints on the window that I wanted to catch them.
MF – That's the truth of the lie.
GA – Among other things. It was one of the best games that I ever saw played out, to divert attention from what really happened in the apartment. The manner in which they "worked" for the Smith was brilliant.
MF – The couple that recognised the father carrying the little girl.
GA – Exactly. It was done in such a manner that at one point in time, it was Gerry himself who informed that someone had witnessed the situation, as if the person that was recognised had been someone else.
MF – Wearing the clothes that the friend mentioned for the photofit.
GA – Precisely.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2015, 01:27:54 AM
IMO given the way in which he was disturbed, he would predict that GNR would be called and might arrive very soon, and IMO he would not try any other property in the whole town Misty.
What sort of burglar do you think this guy was? The sort who would chance his luck during daylight hours and walk away with a TV? The sort who would enter an occupied apartment a la Mrs Fenn? The sort who was savvy enough to know guests had just dumped their luggage & gone out? The sort who chanced upon a holiday let where the very window he tried under a loosened shutter just happened to be open? Where was he doing his reconnaissance from, to witness the parents leave but remain invisible to others?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 01:32:27 AM
If people based their views on heavier duty shutters than fitted at blocks 5 and 4, or on shutters that lock, or on electric shutters like Dispatches, or on windows that autolock, then yes it's understandable they might conclude that opening from outside was impossible for the designs they examined.
no one "examined" anything and further there's no evidence an opportunistic burglar opened them shutters and alledged open window so you're in a hiding to nowhere basically....all supposition
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2015, 01:43:05 AM
IMO window and shutter were opened from outside after 9.05 check ended and before 9.30 check started.Please post photo from files of this print so we can discuss it
Ridiculous notion. A wide open window that produces no draught, sound, moving curtains and the door that stayed half-open when Matt checked. Checkers passing through the car park or the Moyes returning home didn't notice raised shutters and there is a street light outside by the car park entrance. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 01:51:54 AM
Of course it is There's no way one can enter a room especially on a windy night and not notice the cold or wind or their flapping curtains All was well until Kate McCann entered and apparently the wind blew the curtains open.......a fact she did not tell to the PJ or to anyone else. Until May 2009
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 01:55:10 AM
no one "examined" anything and further there's no evidence an opportunistic burglar opened them shutters and alledged open window so you're in a hiding to nowhere basically....all supposition
You say it's supposition but crime statistics say almost all unauthorised window openings are by a burglar. And if a burglar gets disturbed by someone while opening a window obviously he is not going to climb in and steal anything.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 02:10:45 AM
You say it's supposition but crime statistics say almost all unauthorised window openings are by a burglar. And if a burglar gets disturbed by someone while opening a window obviously he is not going to climb in and steal anything.
Well if your going to quote statistics you can't not quote them vis a vis parents or frends and relatives of any family being responsble for most child disappearances come abuse come deaths!!!
aS for a burglar you STILLL have no evidence
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:12:14 AM
Ridiculous notion. A wide open window that produces no draught, sound, moving curtains and the door that stayed half-open when Matt checked. Checkers passing through the car park or the Moyes returning home didn't notice raised shutters and there is a street light outside by the car park entrance. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that happened.
I've already explained why he didn't notice the window open IMO - because he didn't move the door. KM noticed the window open only after opening a fully closed door. Sudden pressure adjustment when the window is open and one opens the fully closed door Pathfinder. But let's discuss your complete theory of what happened in the child bedroom, which if I recall goes like "child was not in there, window never moved, shutter never moved, door never moved, absolutely nothing happened" ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 02:15:49 AM
I've already explained why he didn't notice the window open - because he didn't move the door. KM noticed the window open only after opening a fully closed door. Sudden pressure adjustment when one opens a fully closed door Pathfinder. But let's discuss your complete theory of what happened in the child bedroom, which if I recall goes like "child was not in there, window never moved, shutter never moved, door never moved, absolutely nothing happened" ?
But she didn't open a fully closed door did she???? It was wide open, had enough here tonight Tara
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:22:36 AM
Ridiculous notion. A wide open window that produces no draught, sound, moving curtains and the door that stayed half-open when Matt checked. Checkers passing through the car park or the Moyes returning home didn't notice raised shutters and there is a street light outside by the car park entrance. There is absolutely no evidence to suggest that happened.
What if the person was already in Madeleine's room when Matt did his check? He then opened the window after Matt had gone, thinking it would be a means of escape should someone come back?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 08:50:20 AM
What time? There was no wide open window at 9:30 as Kate claimed she later discovered. Matt returned to the table and told Jane that her daughter was ill. She quickly finished her main course and left minutes later passing through the car park. Russell returned passing through the car park only 5 minutes after to have his main course which he hardly touched because of the alarm being raised by Kate. No valuables were stolen (they don't take kids) and no glove marks found. And to think the parents left their kids alone in that room for 5 nights in a row and not once checked if the window was locked is not credible. SY only have to ask the cleaner if the window was locked because there was no evidence found of it being forced or used at all. A window facing the world or a recessed door exit.
"The McCanns knew that I was going to catch them", 20 October 2008
Moita Flores - Your determination is to get even with those who worked for the McCanns. They've mistreated you.
GA - Believe me, I feel no rage, I'm not even angry. I have understood their game and you also know how this game works. The lies about me, the manipulation is not exactly against the citizen Gonçalo Amaral. They were against the investigator who knew their weaknesses and was going to catch them sooner or later. It was all a matter of time. The McCanns knew that I was going to get them. As you could see, all it took was for the process to be archived in order for everything to be finished. At this moment in time, I'm convinced that they don't even remember my name anymore. So the game is always the same. We want to catch them, they want to escape, and that's it. Sometimes the bandits win, sometimes the policemen do. This time around, and concerning this case, it was how it was. They stopped insulting me, they stopped the campaigns to find their daughter, it's over. They got what they wanted and therefore, peace is back.
MF – And you launch a "grenade" that is called The Truth of the Lie into the midst of that peace. Whoever reads your testimony is left with few doubts about the little girl's destiny. She died in the apartment.
GA – Do you doubt it?
MF – No. Neither I nor the older people who used to work with me. When this happened, I was in Greece and I heard the news through an English channel. The story was so badly told, that only a naive or silly person would believe it. As a matter of fact, when I arrived, I had dinner with several already retired colleagues that worked in homicides, and their opinion was the same. The detail about the window killed the version. Nobody passes through that narrow window space carrying a child.
GA – The window made me doubt. And not only that.
MF – But I do insist on the window. The mother said that she never touched it.
GA – That she never even opened it.
MF – Now, when I read the process, I realised that her fingerprints were on it. And positioned in a manner that coincides with an opening movement.
GA – It was with that, with Kate's fingerprints on the window that I wanted to catch them.
MF – That's the truth of the lie.
GA – Among other things. It was one of the best games that I ever saw played out, to divert attention from what really happened in the apartment. The manner in which they "worked" for the Smith was brilliant.
MF – The couple that recognised the father carrying the little girl.
GA – Exactly. It was done in such a manner that at one point in time, it was Gerry himself who informed that someone had witnessed the situation, as if the person that was recognised had been someone else.
MF – Wearing the clothes that the friend mentioned for the photofit.
GA – Precisely.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id173.html
I think the particular clip you have chosen illustrates almost exactly what went wrong with this investigation ... probably right from the word go.
In the huge game against master criminals and selling a book ... "The window made me doubt."
Reading that transcript carefully one thing which is certainly missing from the investigation into a missing little girl is any real focus on the child herself and cogent analysis of the crime scene, except briefly to remind the audience that Madeleine McCann's death is assured.
The rest is self serving drivel which is all ... me ... me ... me, which if believed verges on paranoia. Is there any doubt with attitudes such as that it was very much a case of "God help Madeleine" because for certain sure the senior investigator's attitude makes it plain, no-one else apart from her parents was the least bit interested.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2015, 09:48:01 AM
What if the person was already in Madeleine's room when Matt did his check? He then opened the window after Matt had gone, thinking it would be a means of escape should someone come back?
In that scenario, why doesn't he simply walk out the safer recessed door in seconds? Why waste time and have a greater chance of being caught by opening noisy shutters and a window that anybody can see? Shame that nobody else saw it open except Amy. The window is a red herring so you follow any evidence found on it i.e. that shouldn't be there if witnesses claim they never touched it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 01:13:19 PM
In that scenario, why doesn't he simply walk out the safer recessed door in seconds? Why waste time and have a greater chance of being caught by opening noisy shutters and a window that anybody can see? Shame that nobody else saw it open except Amy. The window is a red herring so you follow any evidence found on it i.e. that shouldn't be there if witnesses claim they never touched it.
"so you follow any evidence found on it" Agreed so let's do that. Please post the photo of the print which supposedly indicates KM opened the window. I don't think you can.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 01:33:05 PM
The witness's account of the door not slamming at all when it was in the almost open position, but then slamming immediately when she placed it in almost closed position, is completely in accord with the physics of airflow coming in an open window, through a doorway, and out the tall kitchen vent stack. The air velocity through the doorway is much greater when the door is almost closed because there is less area for it to pass through. The physics is all good, the witness is telling the truth.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 25, 2015, 01:38:29 PM
The witness's account of the door not slamming at all when it was in the almost open position, but then slamming immediately when she placed it in almost closed position, is completely in accord with the physics of airflow coming in an open window, through a doorway, and out the tall kitchen vent stack etc. The air velocity through the doorway is much greater when the door is almost closed because there is less area for it to pass through. The physics is all good, the witness is telling the truth.
When did that story first appear?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 25, 2015, 01:50:56 PM
The witness's account of the door not slamming at all when it was in the almost open position, but then slamming immediately when she placed it in almost closed position, is completely in accord with the physics of airflow coming in an open window, through a doorway, and out the tall kitchen vent stack. The air velocity through the doorway is much greater when the door is almost closed because there is less area for it to pass through. The physics is all good, the witness is telling the truth.
Airflow coming through an open window would have been noticed as someone reached into the room to get hold of the door to close it if it was strong enough to slam the door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 01:55:46 PM
At start of check, window is open and door is in almost open position, there is airflow in through window, through door, and out kitchen vent chimney (gravity and venturi effects suck air up the vent chimney). The air pressure in the kitchen is almost the same as the pressure in the bedroom because the air is continuously flowing to make the two pressures almost the same.
Now almost close the door. The same volume of air per second still flows bedroom to kitchen through the doorway but through a much smaller gap so the air velocity is much greater and produces a large force on the door at an angle almost 90 degrees making it slam to fully closed.
The pressure in the bedroom is now much higher than in the kitchen because the airflow which tries to make them the same has been blocked.
Now open the door. Briefly there will be an airflow at a much larger velocity than before, to get rid of that large pressure difference, of enough velocity to blow the curtains in. This is when the curtains blow in. Then within seconds the airflow will reduce to the slower rate same as at beginning of check, and the curtains will stop blowing in.
The physics is all good and the witness is telling the truth IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:09:22 PM
Just realised, if someone did open the window and shutter from outside, this causes the bedroom door to slam shut.
As I said, instead of just assuming a witness is lying by deeply thought out arguments like "the witness is obviously full of..." or catchphrases like "the door that never moved", if one assumes (correctly IMO) that the witness is telling the truth , one can work out small but important details of what may have happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 02:21:15 PM
Just realised, if someone did open the window and shutter from outside, this causes the bedroom door to slam shut.
Would that not depend on the intensity of air movement at the time?
I think it is more likely to be a through draught from the patio doors being left open on the checks and not the kitchen chimney. I cant see anyone making any more noise than necessary while checking the children, so they would have opened the door and left it while checking, IMO.
Change of subject...... Wasn't it the window from the patio doors that had Kate's fingerprints?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 02:28:19 PM
The patio door should have Matt's prints as well as those of Kate and Gerry - oh and also probably Dave's from earlier in the evening.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:33:05 PM
Airflow coming through an open window would have been noticed as someone reached into the room to get hold of the door to close it if it was strong enough to slam the door.
IMO the airflow velocity when the door was almost open was not fast enough to notice. The area of the bedroom doorway through which air can flow with door almost open is about 2 square metres. If you then move the door to almost closed with a 2cm gap, the area of the bedroom doorway through which air can flow is reduced to about 0.06 square metres. The air velocity through the doorway is now about 33 times greater. So an airflow unnoticeable with door almost open, if you then almost close the door, can easily slam the door shut IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:39:10 PM
The patio door should have Matt's prints as well as those of Kate and Gerry - oh and also probably Dave's from earlier in the evening.
Yes, many people touched the sliding lounge door, and that is why you see many marks on it when you look at the forensic photos in the files. Only one print on this door was identified, but there were many prints on it, of not good enough clarity for identification.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:49:29 PM
Would that not depend on the intensity of air movement at the time?
I think it is more likely to be a through draught from the patio doors being left open on the checks and not the kitchen chimney. I cant see anyone making any more noise than necessary while checking the children, so they would have opened the door and left it while checking, IMO. ...(snip)
The kitchen vent chimney is several stories high so the suction pulling air up it would be fairly good IMO. When someone opens the lounge sliding door this probably slightly increases the airflow though the bedroom because now the air from the bedroom can go out the sliding door as well as up the chimney. Maybe this is the cause of the noise in bedroom which was heard, according to an original english document in the files, when opening the lounge sliding door for 21.30 check?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 02:53:50 PM
(snip)...... Wasn't it the window from the patio doors that had Kate's fingerprints?
The only prints of sufficient quality to be identified were one print of a GNR officer on the white painted aluminium of the lounge sliding door, and 5 prints of KM on the glass of the child bedroom window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 03:01:53 PM
The only prints of sufficient quality to be identified were one print of a GNR officer on the white painted aluminium of the lounge sliding door, and 5 prints of KM on the glass of the child bedroom window.
Thanks Pegasus. I thought that at one time it was discussed.........A mix up in photos of where the fingerprints originated from, but I have obvious got confused with another topic. Please Ignore my post
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 25, 2015, 03:03:37 PM
At start of check, window is open and door is in almost open position, there is airflow in through window, through door, and out kitchen vent chimney (gravity and venturi effects suck air up the vent chimney). The air pressure in the kitchen is almost the same as the pressure in the bedroom because the air is continuously flowing to make the two pressures almost the same.
Now almost close the door. The same volume of air per second still flows bedroom to kitchen through the doorway but through a much smaller gap so the air velocity is much greater and produces a large force on the door at an angle almost 90 degrees making it slam to fully closed.
The pressure in the bedroom is now much higher than in the kitchen because the airflow which tries to make them the same has been blocked.
Now open the door. Briefly there will be an airflow at a much larger velocity than before, to get rid of that large pressure difference, of enough velocity to blow the curtains in. This is when the curtains blow in. Then within seconds the airflow will reduce to the slower rate same as at beginning of check, and the curtains will stop blowing in.
The physics is all good and the witness is telling the truth IMO.
So the air is flowing out of the bedroom and instead of going straight across into the lounge area or even into the main bedroom it turns left, left and right and goes into the kitchen? Is that reasonable?
What if the person was already in Madeleine's room when Matt did his check? He then opened the window after Matt had gone, thinking it would be a means of escape should someone come back?
IMO there was never any intruder inside the apartment. But in your scenario if you imagine an intruder is in a wardrobe in the child bedroom, then IMO then your intruder would go out the front door as soon as the checker had left. Opening the shutter makes noise.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 03:27:23 PM
So the air is flowing out of the bedroom and instead of going straight across into the lounge area or even into the main bedroom it turns left, left and right and goes into the kitchen? Is that reasonable?
If the three external doors are closed and all the windows are closed except the open child bedroom window, then yes the air comes in the open child bedroom window and through the open child bedroom doorway and some of it goes up the high kitchen vent chimney and some goes out the built-in vents of the closed windows and of the closed balcony doors, and probably out a bathroom vent also. Air goes from higher pressure area to lower pressure area turning as many corners as required.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 03:40:39 PM
If the three external doors are closed and all the windows are closed except the open child bedroom window, then yes the air comes in the open child bedroom window and through the open child bedroom doorway and some of it goes up the high kitchen vent chimney and some goes out the built-in vents of the closed windows and of the closed balcony doors, and probably out a bathroom vent also. Air goes from higher pressure area to lower pressure area turning as many corners as required.
Wind also gusts.
Not sure if an intruder would have had room to squeeze past the cots to gain access to the wardrobe to hide there. The position of the furniture in the diagram is wrong.
Misty goes for a hasty exit into the master bedroom. I go with down behind the cot with the opaque ends in the children's room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 03:45:00 PM
If the three external doors are closed and all the windows are closed except the open child bedroom window, then yes the air comes in the open child bedroom window and through the open child bedroom doorway and some of it goes up the high kitchen vent chimney and some goes out the built-in vents of the closed windows and of the closed balcony doors, and probably out a bathroom vent also. Air goes from higher pressure area to lower pressure area turning as many corners as required.
I have searched for a video of door slamming due to draughts, but all I can see are examples of paranormal activities. @)(++(*
If that is the case then I have lots of ghosts in my house who only seem to get upset by the combination of an open window and an open door or 2 open doors.
Is there air conditioning in the apartments of Ocean club?
This a question in from the link below….
I don't know the proper terminology for these things, do forgive me for any errors here. We are in a 1,000 sq ft home. The air intake for the furnace and A/C is in our hallway near our bathroom and two bedroom doors. Any time the thermostat turns on, any doors that are within a foot or so of being closed are sucked closed, hard.
I have searched for a video of door slamming due to draughts, but all I can see are examples of paranormal activities. @)(++(*
If that is the case then I have lots of ghosts in my house who only seem to get upset by the combination of an open window and an open door or 2 open doors.
Is there air conditioning in the apartments of Ocean club?
This a question in from the link below….
I don't know the proper terminology for these things, do forgive me for any errors here. We are in a 1,000 sq ft home. The air intake for the furnace and A/C is in our hallway near our bathroom and two bedroom doors. Any time the thermostat turns on, any doors that are within a foot or so of being closed are sucked closed, hard.
I don't see vents or controls so I think no a.c. or heating but I'm probably wrong? Yes if there's a draught through a doorway, then when you almost close that door the same amouint of air tries to get through the much reduced opening so the velocity goes up and makes a force on the door so the door may slam shut or blow further open, depends which way the draught is.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 04:08:43 PM
Is there any information to show which way the draught would have blown ? Was there a prevailing wind in any direction, for example?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 04:10:54 PM
I don't see vents or controls so I think no a.c. or heating but I'm probably wrong? Yes if there's a draught through a doorway, then when you almost close that door the same amouint of air tries to get through the much reduced opening so the velocity goes up and makes a force on the door so the door may slam shut or blow further open, depends which way the draught is.
If there is no open fireplace I would imagine there would be central heating of some kind. Some residents were in occupation all year round and not just in the summer months.
Anna was right about some people attributing similar happenings to the paranormal and who is to say that is not the case as far as their experience is concerned. However the more down to earth have come up with rational answers which you and others have already brought to the forum. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150608161309AAJ9Sqc http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-does-the-wind-slam-doors.136658/ https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-door-slam-when-a-window-is-open
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 04:18:34 PM
Not sure if an intruder would have had room to squeeze past the cots to gain access to the wardrobe to hide there. The position of the furniture in the diagram is wrong.
Misty goes for a hasty exit into the master bedroom. I go with down behind the cot with the opaque ends in the children's room.
Yes there are also gusts to consider. IMO no intruder entered the apartment. But if you imagine an intruder did enter, and he is in the child bedroom when a checker enters the lounge from balcony, your intruder is not going to move to any other room (the checker would see him if he did). He is not going to hide behind the door because it's already almost open and its in an alcove (the checker would see if he closed then opened the door to hide behind it). So the choices are duck behind a cot or quickly get in wardrobe. So if you want to introduce an imaginary intruder in the bedroom you could argue that the noise heard coming from the child bedroom was him getting in a wardrobe. Obviously that's not my theory.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 04:22:14 PM
Is there any information to show which way the draught would have blown ? Was there a prevailing wind in any direction, for example?
Which side of the apartment was the wind blowing from? There was very little protection against the wind blowing in the children's bedroom as it was facing straight onto the car park and main road with no wind deflection.
it is important to determine the airflow pattern around the house, following the principles of aerodynamics, and to orient the inlet appropriately in the airflow. Generally, a building placed in the wind will create a zone of compression to the windward side and a low-pressure zone to the leeward side. This low-pressure zone continues a certain distance beyond the building, depending on the wind velocity. The faster the wind velocity, the shorter the low-pressure zone extends, because of eddies created on the leeward side which disrupt the smooth airflow pattern. For normal wind velocities, the length of the low-pressure zone can be taken to be five times the height of the building.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 04:24:59 PM
Which side of the apartment was the wind blowing from? There was very little protection against the wind blowing in the children's bedroom as it was facing straight onto the car park and main road with no wind deflection.
it is important to determine the airflow pattern around the house, following the principles of aerodynamics, and to orient the inlet appropriately in the airflow. Generally, a building placed in the wind will create a zone of compression to the windward side and a low-pressure zone to the leeward side. This low-pressure zone continues a certain distance beyond the building, depending on the wind velocity. The faster the wind velocity, the shorter the low-pressure zone extends, because of eddies created on the leeward side which disrupt the smooth airflow pattern. For normal wind velocities, the length of the low-pressure zone can be taken to be five times the height of the building.
If a wind was blowing off the sea, which it is likely to do, which side of the building would it be likely to affect most ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 04:32:49 PM
So the air is flowing out of the bedroom and instead of going straight across into the lounge area or even into the main bedroom it turns left, left and right and goes into the kitchen? Is that reasonable?
This comes up every so often ; a bit like Orinoco Flow on the piped music in a hotel foyer. All you need know: Air moves from areas of high pressure to low pressure. No building is completely sealed. Force on door (F) = P x A; where A = door effective area which is variable open to closed (a bit of cos theta creeping in 'ere); P = pressure cause by movement of air dependent upon air velocity. Effect of "chimney" (cooker hood/) from. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-draught-ventilation-d_122.html Happy calculating to all and watch your units 8(>((.
oops I forgot this: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/wind/what-causes-wind
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2015, 04:37:26 PM
If a wind was blowing off the sea, which it is likely to do, which side of the building would it be likely to affect most ?
Not sure about that jassi. Would the wind from the sea not be lighter when the tide was going out? However I will check out the wind conditions, unless someone has them at hand.
ETA Found... Wind heading mainly South...................To the children's bedroom?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 04:56:39 PM
Is there any information to show which way the draught would have blown ? Was there a prevailing wind in any direction, for example?
Lagos 3rd May 2007 10pm. Wind 14.4km/h from WNW. Wind direction matches KM's account perfectly. It's the right direction to slam the door shut after she almost closed it. And the right direction to blow the curtains in when she reopens the slammed door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 05:00:24 PM
Thanks, Anna & pegasus.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 05:12:03 PM
This comes up every so often ; a bit like Orinoco Flow on the piped music in a hotel foyer. All you need know: Air moves from areas of high pressure to low pressure. No building is completely sealed. Force on door (F) = P x A; where A = door effective area which is variable open to closed (a bit of cos theta creeping in 'ere); P = pressure cause by movement of air dependent upon air velocity. Effect of "chimney" (cooker hood/) from. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/natural-draught-ventilation-d_122.html Happy calculating to all and watch your units 8(>((.
oops I forgot this: http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/learning/wind/what-causes-wind
Thanks Alice. So moving the door to almost closed greatly reduces the opening, which increases the air velocity, which increases the pressure acting on the door. Also moving the door to almost closed increases the effective area of the door on which that increased pressure acts. So the two effects multiply each other proving that a door in a draught that doesn't move when it's wide open, will probably be slammed shut if you almost close it, which means that the witness is telling the truth.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 05:27:46 PM
Just to lob a pebble into the pond; don't forget that buildings and their proximity to each other, locally influence wind direction and speeds by creating different wind paths and causing vortices.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 05:30:51 PM
If there is no open fireplace I would imagine there would be central heating of some kind. Some residents were in occupation all year round and not just in the summer months.
Anna was right about some people attributing similar happenings to the paranormal and who is to say that is not the case as far as their experience is concerned. However the more down to earth have come up with rational answers which you and others have already brought to the forum. https://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20150608161309AAJ9Sqc http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/why-does-the-wind-slam-doors.136658/ https://www.quora.com/Why-does-the-door-slam-when-a-window-is-open
Thank you Brietta You posted some are helpful links. Getting back to A/C and heating....... In the photo below. What does it look like to the right of the basket weave, chair. Down low on the wall?
Just to lob a pebble into the pond; don't forget that buildings and their proximity to each other, locally influence wind direction and speeds by creating different wind paths and causing vortices.
It might be beneficial for posters to read up on laminar and turbulent flow .
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 05:51:52 PM
Thank you Brietta You posted some are helpful links. Getting back to A/C and heating....... In the photo below. What does it look like to the right of the basket weave, chair. Down low on the wall?
Could be a vent for AC/heat but if so there must be at least one more in another room and where are the controls?
I should think they were in the bedrooms at least. The controls on these small ones are usually on top or down on the left hand corner. We had one small one like that in Tangiers, Cyprus, and possibly Italy.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2015, 06:03:55 PM
Just to lob a pebble into the pond; don't forget that buildings and their proximity to each other, locally influence wind direction and speeds by creating different wind paths and causing vortices.
so it's impossible to calculate anything
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 06:14:16 PM
Thanks Alice. So moving the door to almost closed greatly reduces the opening, which increases the air velocity, which increases the pressure acting on the door. Also moving the door to almost closed increases the effective area of the door on which that increased pressure acts. So the two effects multiply each other proving that a door in a draught that doesn't move when it's wide open, will probably be slammed shut if you almost close it, which means that the witness is telling the truth.
What I am actually getting around to saying is unless you can replicate precisely all the conditions obtaining at the time and have all the dimensions of the appropriate features then mostly it is going to be guess work. Someone with a knowledge of meteorology, fluid mechanics and mechanics will make a more informed guess that someone who hasn't.
In so far the door will tend to shut faster the larger the area of it that is exposed to the force the witness is correct. Hence my comment on cos theta. For the door to "blow" closed there must be an area of high pressure one side of the door and low pressure on the other side QED. For a fixed flow at a fixed upstream pressure the velocity through a small aperture will be greater than the velocity through a large aperture however a smaller aperture will cause more resistance therefore restricting the flow if the upstream pressure remains constant; but just how much air do you calculate is being moved to balance the pressure? Better stop here it will not tell us much.
Just stick to the high level stuff it is more informative.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 25, 2015, 06:34:38 PM
What I am actually getting around to saying is unless you can replicate precisely all the conditions obtaining at the time and have all the dimensions of the appropriate features then mostly it is going to be guess work. Someone with a knowledge of meteorology, fluid mechanics and mechanics will make a more informed guess that someone who hasn't.
In so far the door will tend to shut faster the larger the area of it that is exposed to the force the witness is correct. Hence my comment on cos theta. For the door to "blow" closed there must be an area of high pressure one side of the door and low pressure on the other side QED. For a fixed flow at a fixed upstream pressure the velocity through a small aperture will be greater than the velocity through a large aperture however a smaller aperture will cause more resistance therefore restricting the flow if the upstream pressure remains constant; but just how much air do you calculate is being moved to balance the pressure? Better stop here it will not tell us much.
Just stick to the high level stuff it is more informative.
I doubt very much if the witness had any knowledge of the science behind slamming interior doors. She described her experience exactly as it had happened ... and from the information posted by informed members ... we can see the description of the event fits the science.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alfred R Jones on September 25, 2015, 06:38:25 PM
I doubt very much if the witness had any knowledge of the science behind slamming interior doors. She described her experience exactly as it had happened ... and from the information posted by informed members ... we can see the description of the event fits the science.
I wonder how many hours the Met have spent investigating the physics behind billowing curtains and slamming doors. Not many I'll wager...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 25, 2015, 06:43:42 PM
Lagos 3rd May 2007 10pm. Wind 14.4km/h from WNW. Wind direction matches KM's account perfectly. It's the right direction to slam the door shut after she almost closed it. And the right direction to blow the curtains in when she reopens the slammed door.
Praia Da Luz Beach. In simple terms the beach is in a natural inlet and bounded by cliffs. The winds are generally from the west
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2015, 06:46:23 PM
Yes things can be calculated, the wind was from about northwest therefore the wind flow through the bedroom was north to south which matches the witness's account of the door slam and the the curtains blowing. The window can easily be opened from outside if the lock button is not pressed, and both parents state they have no idea whether it was pressed or not. And the shutter has no lock. And there is no fingerprint of the witness in a position that indicates opening. So the witness described the scene 100% accurately, and the window and shutter were very probably opened from outside.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 07:08:59 PM
Yes things can be calculated, the wind was from about northwest therefore the wind flow through the bedroom was north to south which matches the witness's account of the door slam and the the curtains blowing. The window can easily be opened from outside if the lock button is not pressed, and both parents state they have no idea whether it was pressed or not. And the shutter has no lock. And there is no fingerprint of the witness in a position that indicates opening. So the witness described the scene 100% accurately, and the window and shutter were very probably opened from outside.
Though there is nothing to actually prove that this is correct - it is merely a possibility.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 07:31:17 PM
I doubt very much if the witness had any knowledge of the science behind slamming interior doors. She described her experience exactly as it had happened ... and from the information posted by informed members ... we can see the description of the event fits the science.
1 I would imagine she did A level physics. There's no more needed to work out the high level stuff which is enough. 2 I never said it didn't. But the window has to be open, the shutters raised, the curtains closed and the wind blowing pretty well normal against the wall with shutter in it to create the conditions. Keep it to a high level and prove that those conditions obtained at the time otherwise the answer is a lemon. Bearing in mind of course what the first GNR officers on the pitch said.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 07:33:25 PM
Though there is nothing to actually prove that this is correct - it is merely a possibility.
A reasonably good possibility IMO. The interesting thing is to consider is, if someone opens window and shutter from outside, what else would happen within seconds? The 21.05 checker left the door in the almost closed position. If some time after that, someone opens the window from outside, that will probably slam the door shut. It can't open the door, because the air flow in the room when window is open is north to south. But the door was later discovered open. So an explanation is needed for how the shut door became open, when it can't be the wind that opened it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 07:39:28 PM
There is the possibility that the door never was almost closed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 07:40:16 PM
Praia Da Luz Beach. In simple terms the beach is in a natural inlet and bounded by cliffs. The winds are generally from the west
Low tide on the night of the 3* May 2007 was at 2200hrs http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/MARK_HARRISON.htm
Generally from the west, but add the wind which blows towards land in the day and towards sea at night, and here is wind direction at 10pm 3rd May which Anna posted http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1868.0;attach=5717;image Therefore during the 10pm check the draught was in through the window and out through the bedroom doorway.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Mr Gray on September 25, 2015, 07:48:57 PM
I can't really see SY being at all interested in the wind conditions...Kate has been interviewed....she is not a suspect ...then SY regard her as a truthful witness
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 08:04:39 PM
I can't really see SY being at all interested in the wind conditions...Kate has been interviewed....she is not a suspect ...then SY regard her as a truthful witness
The PJ were interested in 2007 - they paid about 400 euros to get the best report possible of weather and sea data for that night, including wind. I doubt that SY would be any less diligent. I agree the witness is telling the truth, but an important question, which any investigation must solve, is whether the wind opened the bedroom door, or whether a person did. That is why wind direction is important. If it wasn't the wind then it must have been one of the three people which evidence shows were in the apartment at that moment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 25, 2015, 08:05:15 PM
I wonder how many hours the Met have spent investigating the physics behind billowing curtains and slamming doors. Not many I'll wager...
Me neither. First high level check on data. Were the shutter and window open were the curtains closed and how many independent witnesses can corroborate this.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 25, 2015, 08:14:45 PM
The PJ were interested in 2007 - they paid about 400 euros to get the best report possible of weather and sea data for that night, including wind. I doubt that SY would be any less diligent. I agree the witness is telling the truth, but an important question, which any investigation must solve, is whether the wind opened the bedroom door, or whether a person did. That is why wind direction is important. If it wasn't the wind then it must have been one of the three people which evidence shows were in the apartment at that moment.
Sorry, what moment do you mean?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 08:22:38 PM
You seem to be the expert Alice. If you had any more knowledge of airflow you would be a seagull. I am still stuck trying to convert the Reynolds number from CGS to SI :(
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 25, 2015, 08:56:57 PM
Generally from the west, but add the wind which blows towards land in the day and towards sea at night, and here is wind direction at 10pm 3rd May which Anna posted http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1868.0;attach=5717;image Therefore during the 10pm check the draught was in through the window and out through the bedroom doorway.
Wind direction 10pm 3rd May 2007
9:30 PM 17.0 °C 12.0 °C 72% 1013 hPa - WNW 14.8 km/h / 4.1 m/s - N/A Clear 10:00 PM 15 °C 11 °C 67% 1014 hPa 15 km WNW 14.4 km/h / -Scattered Clouds 10:00 PM 16.0 °C 12.0 °C 77% 1013 hPa - NW 18.5 km/h / 5.1 m/s - N/A Clear 10:30 PM 16.0 °C 12.0 °C 77% 1013 hPa - WNW 16.7 km/h / 4.6 m/s - N/A Clear http://www.wunderground.com/history/airport/LPFR/2007/5/3/DailyHistory.html?req_city=Lagos&req_state=&req_statename=Portugal
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 25, 2015, 09:10:57 PM
We have one uncorroborated statement to that effect. What if the door never was in the almost closed position?
What do you mean, not even at 19.15 ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 10:51:39 PM
Most posters seems to agree (yes I know not everyone) that a child was asleep on a bed, and later was not on the bed. Solution is fairly easy - child wakes up and gets off the bed. It doesn't explain the whole disappearance - but it does explain the disappearance from the bed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 25, 2015, 11:04:05 PM
Most posters seems to agree (yes I know not everyone) that a child was asleep on a bed, and later was not on the bed. Solution is fairly easy - child wakes up and gets off the bed. It doesn't explain the whole disappearance - but it does explain the disappearance from the bed.
Which is not the problem
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 11:05:24 PM
Step 2 - Many posters (not all) agree that a child was in the child bedroom, then later was not in that bedroom. The room has a door. So the solution of this bit also is easy - child walks from bedroom through doorway. Again it doesn't solve the whole disappearance, but it does solve the disappearance from the child bedroom.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 25, 2015, 11:13:47 PM
On the window, you mean? Yes, he appears to have checked the feasibility of someone getting in from the outside (judging by a photo of an officer attempting to get in via the window), knowing that it hadn't been forced. Would that imply that perhaps he got his team to see if it could be opened without force from outside? If not, the exercise would have been a bit pointless in terms of an entry point.
No not the window, the reconstitution. Why request one if he didn't believe there was still questions to be asked of the tapas bunch about the 3rd of May ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 25, 2015, 11:16:56 PM
Step 2 - Many posters (not all) agree that a child was in the child bedroom, then later was not in that bedroom. The room has a door. So the solution of this bit also is easy - child walks from bedroom through doorway. Again it doesn't solve the whole disappearance, but it does solve the disappearance from the child bedroom.
You will never get the full picture Pegasus if even one of the jigsaw pieces is missing. And an unfinished picture tells us nothing useful.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 25, 2015, 11:26:43 PM
Precisely Mercury The simple solution of step 1 disappearance from bed = wakes and gets off bed. And the simple solution for step 2 disappearance from child bedroom = walks through child bedroom doorway. So step 3 is to solve - How did disappearance from another room (not child bedroom) to outside happen?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 25, 2015, 11:41:40 PM
@Pegasus
How were the cots positioned at 10pm - as shown in the PJ crime scene photos or as depicted in the layout of "THE FLAT" on p143 of this thread?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?ts a hyp
Post by: mercury on September 26, 2015, 12:31:40 AM
Step 2 - Many posters (not all) agree that a child was in the child bedroom, then later was not in that bedroom. The room has a door. So the solution of this bit also is easy - child walks from bedroom through doorway. Again it doesn't solve the whole disappearance, but it does solve the disappearance from the child bedroom.
It solves it as part of a possible scenario with no real evidence to back it up....it's a hypothesis that makes quite a few (unprovable) assumptions to make it work
ETA not saying it's wrong, saying you can't promote it as a probability
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 01:25:48 AM
You will never get the full picture Pegasus if even one of the jigsaw pieces is missing. And an unfinished picture tells us nothing useful.
I've only done the first two pieces Faithlilly. But ask anyone else to explain their answer (I already posted mine) to this easy small question - What was the method of leaving the bed? You will get probably get things like "lifted out" or "drugged then lifted out" or "never was in the bed".
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 26, 2015, 01:45:44 AM
I've only done the first two pieces Faithlilly. But ask anyone else to explain their answer (I already posted mine) to this easy small question - What was the method of leaving the bed? You will get probably get things like "lifted out" or "drugged then lifted out" or "never was in the bed".
If the bedcovers in the Crime Scene photo are as they were found at 10pm - I'm not seeing a bed that a child sat up in & got out of. The triangle appears to have been positioned from the outside, not pushed back with feet as a child would frequently do, especially given the proximity of the chest of drawers.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 01:56:01 AM
It solves it as part of a possible scenario with no real evidence to back it up....it's a hypothesis that makes quite a few (unprovable) assumptions to make it work
ETA not saying it's wrong, saying you can't promote it as a probability
I have only progressed about 3 metres Mercury. But what is your theory for the first half a metre?
.............................................................................. Sorry Pegasus I had to Edit fault in topic header or it would be copied over and over again. Anna
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Anna on September 26, 2015, 02:15:14 AM
If the bedcovers in the Crime Scene photo are as they were found at 10pm - I'm not seeing a bed that a child sat up in & got out of. The triangle appears to have been positioned from the outside, not pushed back with feet as a child would frequently do, especially given the proximity of the chest of drawers.
The bed sheets etc had also been checked by the GNR. Did they put them back as they found them, before forensic team arrived?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ These are excerpts from the statement:-
Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment. He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge. ………………………………
During the search he did not find anything strange apart from the bedclothes on Madeleine's bed, which were too tidy, it appeared that she had been picked up from or had left the bed with great care. There was a mark on the sheet that appeared to be made by a child's body.
…………………. After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything. ……………………………….....
When questioned about the windows in the bedroom, he only remembers that the window in the girl's bedroom was closed with the blind raised up the space of the width of a hand. He does not remember the existence of curtains. The father indicated, through the translator, alleging that when the disappearance was discovered, the windows and blinds were open.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: mercury on September 26, 2015, 02:16:44 AM
I don't have a theory but what you're doing is trying to amalgamate one proven event with an unproven one IE child missing and windows open
The theory that child woke and wondered doesn't need an attempted burglary to make it feasible
edited header adjusted . Post untouched...Anna
I approach it sequentially Mercury, given the starting location, solve the method of getting from there to half a metre away. I agree it appears to be easy to make a w+w theory without the window and shutter being opened. Two recognised experts did exactly that, one if I recall correctly was MWT and the other another brit ex-police expert. But there are two problems with both of their theories - first they don't provide any good reason for w+w, and second they completely forget that in this actual case, the window and shutter actually were opened by someone.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 26, 2015, 10:39:31 AM
The bed sheets etc had also been checked by the GNR. Did they put them back as they found them, before forensic team arrived?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ These are excerpts from the statement:-
Then, while his colleague remained in the hall, and the others were in the living room, the witness went through the entire apartment. He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms, living room and kitchen and checked under the beds and inside the washing machine. He did not see the fridge. ………………………………
During the search he did not find anything strange apart from the bedclothes on Madeleine's bed, which were too tidy, it appeared that she had been picked up from or had left the bed with great care. There was a mark on the sheet that appeared to be made by a child's body.
…………………. After the search, he noticed a situation that seemed unusual to him, when at a determined moment, the girl's parents kneeled down on the floor of their bedroom and placed their heads on the bed, crying. He did not notice any comments or expression from them, just crying. He says that at the main reception the father also knelt down, placing his head on the floor and crying. He did not hear the father say anything. ……………………………….....
When questioned about the windows in the bedroom, he only remembers that the window in the girl's bedroom was closed with the blind raised up the space of the width of a hand. He does not remember the existence of curtains. The father indicated, through the translator, alleging that when the disappearance was discovered, the windows and blinds were open.
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id258.html
During the search he did not find anything strange apart from the bedclothes on Madeleine's bed, which were too tidy, it appeared that she had been picked up from or had left the bed with great care. There was a mark on the sheet that appeared to be made by a child's body.
I think that is entirely consistent with Madeleine's father saying she was lying on top of the covers.
One early police thought was that the intruder may have been on the premises at the time, and that must have been a bitter pill for any father to swallow.
Maybe if procedure had allowed the GNR to keep on with their investigations we might have had a very different conclusion.
We know that people are capable of climbing in these windows ... or no-one would bother covering them with grilles ... once in there is nothing which says they can't climb back out whether carrying a child or not ... but why bother when the front door allows a perfect exit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 12:38:45 PM
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1868.0;attach=5720;image The photo and the GNR statement suggest IMO either one or other of A. Child was under covers, sat up, got off the bed, did not return. B. Child was under covers, sat up, got off the bed, went somewhere, came back, got back onto bed on top of covers, then later got off the bed, did not return.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 12:57:04 PM
Quote
He opened all the cupboards in the bedrooms
Great, the hinges were working ok.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 01:18:04 PM
BTW a difficulty for the w+w idea is shoes, one of the early searchers asked, and they were still there.
A distressed child waking in the gloom of a darkened bedroom doesn't take the time to find her shoes. This is especially so if the child was awakened and startled by a stranger peering in an open bedroom window!
To answer the opening post, an intruder could have opened the bedroom window and climbed in but that didn't happen according to the forensic evidence and I would believe that before any witness.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 01:55:25 PM
A distressed child waking in the gloom of a darkened bedroom doesn't take the time to find her shoes. This is especially so if the child was awakened and startled by a stranger peering in an open bedroom window!
I might re-read the two w+w theories (by MWT, and by another expert) to see how they deal with this pair of clues.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 02:01:31 PM
"...the window was open and the shutter raised she asked the parents whether Madeleine's shoes were there, to which they replied that they were ..." (statement of employee AT)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 02:15:17 PM
First part of MWT's theory "I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar................" http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
No mention of shoes, and no explanation of why the window and shutter were open.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 02:38:51 PM
First part of MWT's theory "I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar................" http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
No mention of shoes, and no explanation of why the window and shutter were open.
Once outside the noise from the tapas, in contrast to the quiet elsewhere must have Dewan Madeleine's attention. It is not hard to imagine her dragging a patio chair to the railings and climbing on it in order to see over the foliage to the tapas. Sleep and slightly unstable, it wouldn't have taken much for her to loose her balance and topple over the railings.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 02:52:28 PM
Once outside the noise from the tapas, in contrast to the quiet elsewhere must have Dewan Madeleine's attention. It is not hard to imagine her dragging a patio chair to the railings and climbing on it in order to see over the foliage to the tapas. Sleep and slightly unstable, it wouldn't have taken much for her to loose her balance and topple over the railings.
Yes the restaurant could be heard from the balconies. But in the PJ photos there is no plastic chair near the railing which Eddie later had interest in. Also if someone fell over that railing they would probably not reach the ground but be stopped part way down in the climbing plant. Also the lounge sliding door was closed or nearly closed so does your hypothesis assume someone closing it behind them as they went out?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 03:25:28 PM
So in your idea was simply waking up the reason for going out of the bedroom, through the lounge, onto the balcony, etc? Also was waking up just random or because of some kind of sound or what?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Angelo222 on September 26, 2015, 03:32:30 PM
First part of MWT's theory "I believe what happened on May 3 was that Madeleine woke up, cried for a short while, realised her parents weren't in the apartment as they had not come in to settle her, so she climbed out of bed and walked around the apartment. She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar................" http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
No mention of shoes, and no explanation of why the window and shutter were open.
He's entitled to an opinion as everyone else is but that's where it ends.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 03:39:51 PM
So in your idea was simply waking up the reason for going out of the bedroom, through the lounge, onto the balcony, etc? Also was waking up just random or because of some kind of sound or what?
I think looking for her parents was the reason Madeleine left the bedroom. As to what woke her up, well we know she had a habitat of this happening and although, we are told, this had for better recently perhaps being in a different environment had caused the behaviour to resume or even noise from one of the twins ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 04:18:47 PM
I think looking for her parents was the reason Madeleine left the bedroom. As to what woke her up, well we know she had a habitat of this happening and although, we are told, this had for better recently perhaps being in a different environment had caused the behaviour to resume or even noise from one of the twins ?
IMO your idea needs something much more urgent than just awaking, to explain going out onto a balcony.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 04:29:54 PM
Because in your theory how do you explain why someone goes on a balcony one time when awaking, and not all the other times when awaking, what is more urgent this one time? Of course if someone had opened the shutter and window from outside .....
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 04:54:21 PM
Because in your theory how do you explain why someone goes on a balcony one time when awaking, and not all the other times when awaking, what is more urgent this one time? Of course if someone had opened the shutter and window from outside .....
Perhaps this was the only time that week that the patio doors were left open when Madeleine woke ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 05:02:30 PM
I mean seriously keep as quiet as possible. I'll rephrase the question.... What single event would cause a child to wake up, leave their room, keep as absolutely quiet as possible, and not return to their room?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 08:26:36 PM
This is an important thing in all scenarios, indoors or garden. What single event would cause someone to wake up, leave the room, and keep quiet as possible? Oh and BTW it needs to be an event which fully matches the witness crime scene description at 10pm.
What if the witnesses weren't honest ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 08:28:04 PM
I mean seriously keep as quiet as possible. I'll rephrase the question.... What single event would cause a child to wake up, leave their room, keep as absolutely quiet as possible, and not return to their room?
How do you know the child was quiet, no matter what the scenario ?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 26, 2015, 08:32:13 PM
How do you know the child was quiet, no matter what the scenario ?
Indeed, the parents were too far away to hear and her siblings were so dead to the world that they didn't even stir when the bedroom door slammed shut.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 08:34:26 PM
How do you know the child was quiet, no matter what the scenario ?
No witness statements mention hearing a child screaming or shouting that evening at the relevant times. The windows (not the sliding doors) were single glazed so they let sound through. The flat above was occupied all evening. The flat above that was occupied from about 9.15pm.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 08:36:51 PM
I approach it sequentially Mercury, given the starting location, solve the method of getting from there to half a metre away. I agree it appears to be easy to make a w+w theory without the window and shutter being opened. Two recognised experts did exactly that, one if I recall correctly was MWT and the other another brit ex-police expert. But there are two problems with both of their theories - first they don't provide any good reason for w+w, and second they completely forget that in this actual case, the window and shutter actually were opened by someone.
Kids can get out of bed for various reasons, each as valid as the other. Ref your last sentence, even if it's factually true that the window and shutter were opened, there is no evidence as to who by really.It shouldn't really have to boil down to whether you believe the parents or not.
Common reasons for wandering can include sleepwalking, and/or having a night terror, or going to find an adult or visiting a favourite place though in that last example in the pitch dark I doubt most toddlers would do that, though there was a recent story about a very young girl in the USA putting her shoes and coat on in the middle of the night and going to buy sweets IIRC at a petrol station.
This all tends to falls down as normally wandering kids are found, unless the child met some fate such as falling down a hole, or was whisked away and hidden after a hit and run e.g. or the MWT idea that there just happened to be an opportunistic paedophile around at the time who grabbed her ...or a hypnotist who chanted, come with me!!
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 10:35:47 PM
In a nutshell - it looked and sounded like everyone was out. From that starting point, it's fairly elementary to explain the open shutter and window, and why no intruder entered, and the open door, and the exit of child to another room, and collect a truthful witness along the way.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 26, 2015, 10:37:31 PM
In a nutshell - it looked like everyone was out. From that starting point, it's fairly elementary to explain the open shutter and window, and why no intruder entered, and the open door, and the exit of child to another room, and collect a truthful witness along the way.
Or of course, it was all made up.
No independent verification of the shutters or window open before 10 o'clock.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 10:55:03 PM
It looked like everyone was out. Proof - There was only one small low light on in a corner of the lounge, there was no flickering TV on, there were no people moving around.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 10:57:27 PM
It sounded like everyone was out Proof - At about 9pm a witness stood just outside the child bedroom shutter and listened and there was no sound.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: faithlilly on September 26, 2015, 11:03:19 PM
It sounded like everyone was out Proof - At about 9pm a witness stood just outside the child bedroom shutter and listened and there was no sound.
Well done you!! 8@??)( A few valiant attempts from you trying to keep the posts on topic.
I have just found an interesting case where a father has spent 16 years in jail for the murder of his little girl ... read at ... http://freebart.org/
The situation regarding what the police took to be 'staging' of damage to the shutter and the blind makes sobering reading. Mirroring the allegations made by some about the 'staging' of the window in 5A.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 26, 2015, 11:46:22 PM
Lowlife burglar checklist 1. wait until dark 2. look - does it look like everyone is out? 3. go to an accessible window 4. listen at shutter - does it sound like everyone is out? 5. open shutter and window 6. climb in 7. steal cash jewellery etc If interrupted at any stage, obviously go away immediately, do not continue.
But what are the chances of someone interrupting a burglar exactly as he completes step 5. Close to zero do you think?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 26, 2015, 11:48:57 PM
Well done you!! 8@??)( A few valiant attempts from you trying to keep the posts on topic.
I have just found an interesting case where a father has spent 16 years in jail for the murder of his little girl ... read at ... http://freebart.org/
The situation regarding what the police took to be 'staging' of damage to the shutter and the blind makes sobering reading. Mirroring the allegations made by some about the 'staging' of the window in 5A.
We should perhaps be thankful there were no intact spider's webs noticed between the window & shutter of 5a.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 12:06:26 AM
We should perhaps be thankful there were no intact spider's webs noticed between the window & shutter of 5a.
I've not read into it in any depth yet, there is quite a lot there ... but it would appear that until Bart raised the alarm when he went back for clothes, no-one else had bothered because it certainly wasn't a crime scene till then. I've not watched the video produced by the expert about how quickly the spider weaves its web, but academic anyway as I don't think the web would have been disturbed by moving the screen.
The comparison with 5A that sprang to mind was the clean surface of the window frame. Plus no indication of how she had gained entry ... I would have thought scuff marks on the wall below the window at least.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 12:17:04 AM
Lowlife burglar checklist 1. wait until dark 2. look - does it look like everyone is out? 3. go to an accessible window 4. listen at shutter - does it sound like everyone is out? 5. open shutter and window 6. climb in 7. steal cash jewellery etc If interrupted at any stage, obviously go away immediately, do not continue.
But what are the chances of someone interrupting a burglar exactly as he completes step 5. Close to zero do you think?
We've been following the same tack on this one ... and what I have discovered is that there are a few burglars who have absolutely no qualms about entering a property when the whole family is at home ... usually when they are asleep.
If the intruder to 5A had been caught in the act I think it perfectly possible the element of surprise might have been used and the person disturbing him/her could very well have been attacked. I think that would have happened only in extremis ... the escape route having already been prepared for such an event.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 12:26:33 AM
We've been following the same tack on this one ... and what I have discovered is that there are a few burglars who have absolutely no qualms about entering a property when the whole family is at home ... usually when they are asleep.
If the intruder had been caught in the act I think it perfectly possible the element of surprise might have been used and the person disturbing him/her could very well have been attacked. I think that would have happened only in extremis ... the escape route having already been prepared for such an event.
I am interested in a burglar being interrupted exactly to the second at this moment Brietta -
5. open the shutter and window (Burglar gets interrupted by a person at exactly this moment after step 5 but before step 6) 6. climb in go away, don't climb in
What are the chances of that happening?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 27, 2015, 12:29:08 AM
We've been following the same tack on this one ... and what I have discovered is that there are a few burglars who have absolutely no qualms about entering a property when the whole family is at home ... usually when they are asleep.
If the intruder had been caught in the act I think it perfectly possible the element of surprise might have been used and the person disturbing him/her could very well have been attacked. I think that would have happened only in extremis ... the escape route having already been prepared for such an event.
That is the difference with this case, though - it was not a family home complete with any abundance of valuables. It was a holiday let, occupied by a family on day 6 of a 7 day holiday. If it was an opportunist burglar, why would he assume it was even occupied at all if there was no evidence anyone was in?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 12:32:30 AM
That is the difference with this case, though - it was not a family home complete with any abundance of valuables. It was a holiday let, occupied by a family on day 6 of a 7 day holiday. If it was an opportunist burglar, why would he assume it was even occupied at all if there was no evidence anyone was in?
buckets Misty
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 27, 2015, 12:53:10 AM
I am interested in a burglar being interrupted exactly to the second at this moment Brietta -
5. open the shutter and window (Burglar gets interrupted by a person at exactly this moment after step 5 but before step 6) 6. climb in go away, don't climb in
What are the chances of that happening?
I am sure burglars quite often get interrupted and have to change their plans or make good their escape. Things don't always go to plan ... witness the recent case in Portugal where the burglar was killed ... and it has been known for it to happen the other way round too.
Imo the proof that in this case there was no interruption ... is that Madeleine is missing and I believe she was the object of the intrusion.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 01:10:39 AM
Rear of property - clothes airer on balcony, shutters up, light in corner of lounge.
Not an opportunist but a professional who knew how to open shutters/windows but failed to observe people traffic at Block 5?
A very small-time burglar IMO. When everyone is out, use known opening trick, steal a few things, buy booze/drugs. How on earth is he supposed to predict there is anyone in there? It looks, and sounds, like everyone is out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 01:12:47 AM
You yourself have posted about the burglar first ascertaining if the accommodation is empty using various means ... one of which is knocking the door, perhaps with a clip board in hand. Hence SY interest in witness reports concerning people doing just that around the time Madeleine went missing.
Sometimes that fails or the burglar just doesn't seem to care too much if anyone is at home ... Mrs Fenn perhaps being a case in point.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 01:21:16 AM
You yourself have posted about the burglar first ascertaining if the accommodation is empty using various means ... one of which is knocking the door, perhaps with a clip board in hand. Hence SY interest in witness reports concerning people doing just that around the time Madeleine went missing.
Sometimes that fails or the burglar just doesn't seem to care too much if anyone is at home ... Mrs Fenn perhaps being a case in point.
Ok so it looks like everyone is out, there is no sound at the window shutter, but just to be sure imagine he knocks on the front door. No answer. Silence. To the burglar that confirms that there is no-one in. I'm not making it up - there is another case where that happened.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: John on September 27, 2015, 01:37:33 AM
This thread has now been edited in accordance with forum rules.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 01:43:36 AM
Ok so it looks like everyone is out, there is no sound at the window shutter, but just to be sure imagine he knocks on the front door. No answer. Silence. To the burglar that confirms that there is no-one in. I'm not making it up - there is another case where that happened.
I know you are not making it up ... there is just about every permutation under the sun out there ... including things which are beyond the comprehension of normal people.
I read tonight about a Spanish burglar who reported his victim to the police because he found a cache of paedophile porn in his haul ... so at least that was one good outcome from breaking the law.
I'm not sure we will ever know exactly why the window and shutter was opened; the one thing we can be sure of is that Madeleine is missing.
The fact she has not been seen for over eight years as far as we know, means someone must have taken her. Imo that someone is responsible for opening the window and raising the shutter.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 02:12:25 AM
I know you are not making it up ... there is just about every permutation under the sun out there ... including things which are beyond the comprehension of normal people.
I read tonight about a Spanish burglar who reported his victim to the police because he found a cache of paedophile porn in his haul ... so at least that was one good outcome from breaking the law.
I'm not sure we will ever know exactly why the window and shutter was opened; the one thing we can be sure of is that Madeleine is missing.
The fact she has not been seen for over eight years as far as we know, means someone must have taken her. Imo that someone is responsible for opening the window and raising the shutter.
There you are thinking the same way as both SY and Mr Amaral and almost everyone else IMO in the following respect - All them are assuming that whoever opened the window and shutter is the same as or is associated with the person who took or hid the child. But IMO they are probably completely unconnected with each other.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 02:27:23 AM
... I'm not sure we will ever know exactly why the window and shutter was opened ...
I think you are making it too complicated. If a window is opened illicitly, it is almost certainly opened from outside by someone intending to burgle.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 12:10:55 PM
It doesn't matter how completely impossible it appears at first to fit it into a full solution, it is a simple fact that if people find a window open when they get home, it was almost certainly opened from outside by someone intending to burgle.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 27, 2015, 12:43:25 PM
I know you are not making it up ... there is just about every permutation under the sun out there ... including things which are beyond the comprehension of normal people.
I read tonight about a Spanish burglar who reported his victim to the police because he found a cache of paedophile porn in his haul ... so at least that was one good outcome from breaking the law.
I'm not sure we will ever know exactly why the window and shutter was opened; the one thing we can be sure of is that Madeleine is missing.
The fact she has not been seen for over eight years as far as we know, means someone must have taken her. Imo that someone is responsible for opening the window and raising the shutter.
Almost logical. A more logical statement is 'The fact that she has not been seen for over eight years means that she disappeared on 3rd May 2007. How, who by or why is not yet known'.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 01:41:44 PM
Almost logical. A more logical statement is 'The fact that she has not been seen for over eight years means that she disappeared on 3rd May 2007. How, who by or why is not yet known'.
Nothing and no-one can literally disappear. They can apparently disappear. Or they can disappear from one location by appearing in another. "Apparently disappeared on 3rd May" is an improvement but still very vague so IMO we need to introduce some geography and state something like this "disappeared from (insert here some defined room or building or area etc) on the (insert date here)th day of May 2007 by going out of that defined location to another location"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 01:47:01 PM
"Disappeared from her bedroom on 3rd May" is accurate IMO. But someone will come along and say even that is wrong.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 27, 2015, 01:54:10 PM
It doesn't matter how completely impossible it appears at first to fit it into a full solution, it is a simple fact that if people find a window open when they get home, it was almost certainly opened from outside by someone intending to burgle.
I am still open to your idea that there was an aborted burglary attempt to enter via the window and that the chlld could wave woken up and moved.
On the other hand, if someone had a duplicate key, making it seem like an aborted burglary via the window to deflect attention from the key is also feasible.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 02:04:51 PM
I think you are making it too complicated. If a window is opened illicitly, it is almost certainly opened from outside by someone intending to burgle.
Not necessarily, it is possible it could have been carried out from either side. I think the notion may have been introduced for the simple reason that so many 'experts' vehemently denied that the shutter could be raised from outside and someone could climb through and make their exit carrying a child.
We know better now and have seen it is perfectly possible.
Similarly there seemed to be a reluctance to accept a key could have been used to gain entry via the wooden door.
I don't think my theory is as complicated as yours which requires the perfect storm ...
burglar raises shutter and wakens child
child takes fright and runs
burglar takes fright and runs in other direction
child flees ~ carefully closing all behind her
child vanishes into the night ~ falls down huge hole or drain never to emerge ~ gets injured in a RTA and is carried away by a drunken? driver never to be seen again ~ child runs directly into the arms of a passing paedophile
I think my theory is simplicity itself by comparison.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 02:12:37 PM
I am still open to your idea that there was an aborted burglary attempt to enter via the window and that the chlld could wave woken up and moved.
On the other hand, if someone had a duplicate key, making it seem like an aborted burglary via the window to deflect attention from the key is also feasible.
My theory is that all the burglaries and attempted burglaries in these two blocks, where an opened window was found, were by opening that window from outside. Your alternate theory is presumably that all those cases were by opening front door with a key followed by opening of a window from inside?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 04:40:58 PM
My theory is that all the burglaries and attempted burglaries in these two blocks, where an opened window was found, were by opening that window from outside. Your alternate theory is presumably that all those cases were by opening front door with a key followed by opening of a window from inside?
I'm not familiar with statements from anyone who was burgled while staying in the complex. Mrs Fenn instinctively tried to catch on to the burglar who was in the process of leaving via the window but we do not know how he gained entry ... and the ladies who had been burgled shortly after their arrival thought entry was through the door.
Path of least resistance. What would arouse more suspicion if seen, someone climbing through a window ... or someone using a key to open a door?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 05:13:44 PM
(snip) ... Path of least resistance. What would arouse more suspicion if seen, someone climbing through a window ... or someone using a key to open a door?
In 99.9% of burglaries the burglar does not have a copy of the front door key. There is absolutely no need to assume the burglar had a key.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 05:40:00 PM
If a burglar thinking everyone was out used a copied key to go in through the front door, he would soon discover to his shock as soon as he looked in the north bedroom that people were in, and he would leave immediately and empty handed through the front door. The window and shutter would certainly still be closed at 10pm, which would mean the witness is lying.
If a burglar with no key, thinking everyone was out opened the shutter and window from outside, he would immediately discover to his shock that people were in, before he even entered, and he would leave immediately empty-handed. The window and shutter would certainly be discovered open at 10pm, which would mean the witness is telling the truth.
Take your pick.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 05:49:06 PM
In 99.9% of burglaries the burglar does not have a copy of the front door key. There is absolutely no need to assume the burglar had a key.
We are talking holiday apartments here where there was access to keys ... not residential villas.
One of the thoughts for the window being left as it was in the room where Madeleine McCann was sleeping was to detract from the notion a key may have been used.
Indeed, we can see Mr Amaral in his documentary going to some length to reinforce that suggestion. It is a puzzlement that in the early stages of the investigation two possible means of entry and exit were played down (three I believe, if one takes into account what Mr Amaral says in his book about the difficulty an intruder would have had entering via the less secluded patio door).
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 06:01:32 PM
We are talking holiday apartments here where there was access to keys ... not residential villas.
One of the thoughts for the window being left as it was in the room where Madeleine McCann was sleeping was to detract from the notion a key may have been used.
Indeed, we can see Mr Amaral in his documentary going to some length to reinforce that suggestion. It is a puzzlement that in the early stages of the investigation two possible means of entry and exit were played down (three I believe, if one takes into account what Mr Amaral says in his book about the difficulty an intruder would have had entering via the less secluded patio door).
If a burglar entered using a copied key he would as soon as he looked in the north bedroom be shocked to see there were children in there and obviously he would then assume that if there are children there must also be adults in the other bedroom so he would be straight out the front door empty handed. No open window and shutter would result.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 06:01:54 PM
If a burglar thinking everyone was out used a copied key to go in through the front door, he would soon discover to his shock that people were in, and he would leave immediately and empty handed through the front door. The window and shutter would certainly still be closed at 10pm, which would mean the witness is lying.
If a burglar with no key, thinking everyone was out opened the shutter and window from outside, he would immediately discover to his shock that people were in, before he even entered, and he would leave immediately empty-handed. The window and shutter would certainly be discovered open at 10pm, which would mean the witness is telling the truth.
Take your pick.
I'm very relaxed that you have that one wrong on both counts, Pegasus.
There are just so many instances of homes being burgled with the residents at home that it makes the notion it is a deterrence redundant.
You are also going with the assumption the person who invaded apartment 5A was a lone opportunistic burglar. There is no evidence for that.
However there is witness evidence that apartment 5A may have been under observation during the time of the McCann family stay there. Too many unconnected independent sightings preceding Madeleine's disappearance to be discounted.
Which is why I tend towards thinking the open window and raised shutter was a deliberate red herring. Very sloppy work otherwise either for the opportunist who could have lowered it as quickly as it was raised ... or the planned who would have lowered it to cover tracks.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 06:12:01 PM
What about the at least 3 earlier burglaries of apartments in that pair of blocks that year. In all of those cases a window was found open and there was no sign of forced entry. Surely you cannot claim that they were done by someone with the intention of abduction? Key (your theory) or no key (my theory), it is very obvious surely that those apartments were done by a burglar.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 06:22:09 PM
An apology for a pun which was unintentional. When I said "take your pick" I meant "please choose between your theory and mine" Brietta. For clarity, it was not a suggestion that you take up burglary by lock-picking.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 06:28:42 PM
What about the at least 3 earlier burglaries of apartments in that pair of blocks that year. In all of those cases a window was found open and there was no sign of forced entry. Surely you cannot claim that they were done by someone with the intention of abduction? Key (your theory) or no key (my theory), it is very obvious surely that those apartments were done by a burglar.
Where is it reported that a window was left open ~ I thought the accusation at the time was that the tourists were careless in locking the door or in hiding a key outside? I don't know what may have been taken from Mrs Fenn's apartment or if he was disturbed before he could lift anything. With the exception of a plasma screen, which I presume to be a TV, I have no idea what else may have gone amiss from the other burglaries.
Although vehemently denied in the past ... we now know for certain there was a predator on the loose who thought nothing of entering occupied premises ... sometimes doing a bit of petty thieving and/or molesting children.
I think the person\s who took Madeleine may well have had burglar skills. They may have used them on the third of May ... but not with the intention of snaffling a passport or a camera.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 06:30:51 PM
An apology for a pun which was unintentional. When I said "take your pick" I meant "please choose between your theory and mine" Brietta. For clarity, it was not a suggestion that you take up burglary by lock-picking.
I missed it entirely,Pegasus, definitely not offended.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 09:23:48 PM
Where is it reported that a window was left open ~ I thought the accusation at the time was that the tourists were careless in locking the door or in hiding a key outside? I don't know what may have been taken from Mrs Fenn's apartment or if he was disturbed before he could lift anything. With the exception of a plasma screen, which I presume to be a TV, I have no idea what else may have gone amiss from the other burglaries.
Although vehemently denied in the past ... we now know for certain there was a predator on the loose who thought nothing of entering occupied premises ... sometimes doing a bit of petty thieving and/or molesting children.
I think the person\s who took Madeleine may well have had burglar skills. They may have used them on the third of May ... but not with the intention of snaffling a passport or a camera.
At 5G certainly the only accessible window and its shutter were discovered open by the occupant. I will try to post information about window state at 5L and at an apartment in block 4.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 09:49:50 PM
Apartments 5G and 5L each have one burglar-accessible window just like 5A. Their shutters are the same design as 5A. Almost certainly the windows are the same design too. The source for the fact that the burglaries at 5G and 5L were by window entry is the Metropolitan Police Service https://web.archive.org/web/20131018062219/http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal/Madeleine-McCann-Appeal--October-2013/1400020463601/1257246745782 "Two of the burglaries in April were in Block 5 where Madeleine disappeared from. In both these burglaries entry was via a window"
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 27, 2015, 10:16:58 PM
Apartments 5G and 5L each have one burglar-accessible window just like 5A. Their shutters are the same design as 5A. Almost certainly the windows are the same design too. The source for the fact that the burglaries at 5G and 5L were by window entry is the Metropolitan Police Service https://web.archive.org/web/20131018062219/http://content.met.police.uk/Appeal/Madeleine-McCann-Appeal--October-2013/1400020463601/1257246745782 "Two of the burglaries in April were in Block 5 where Madeleine disappeared from. In both these burglaries entry was via a window"
I remember that being said.
Doesn't alter the possibility that the tactic (if the window and shutter were found as at 5A) was to take attention from a key being used to open the door.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 27, 2015, 11:55:54 PM
Of course, we have to believe that an abduction took place- as the McCann family were being watched? Oh Really, well how cool was that abductor sneaking in between all the traffic.... parents hearing, looking, listening, checking blah blah. not to mention the kids waking up crying...Hmm red herring indeed! The shutter and window was not used as entry - exit and Kate's knowing Maddie was abducted because of that scene is pure fantasy.
Burglars casing a joint would not be wanting children, they want money, jewels etc. abduction? well why not abduct all three kids? You know if there was more thanone involved and cars were used... but then Jane only saw one abductor....tsk
McCanns trying to re write their own history now? THEY left a door unlocked...responsibility lies wholly with the parents. Now you can jiggle all you like, but that is the fact.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 27, 2015, 11:57:47 PM
Doesn't alter the possibility that the tactic (if the window and shutter were found as at 5A) was to take attention from a key being used to open the door.
With what keys? Where would a small-time burglar get keys from for 5L and 5G and 5A? These shutters have no locks, no bolts, they can be opened from outside, you don't need a door key.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Alice Purjorick on September 27, 2015, 11:59:12 PM
Of course, we have to believe that an abduction took place- as the McCann family were being watched? Oh Really, well how cool was that abductor sneaking in between all the traffic.... parents hearing, looking, listening, checking blah blah. not to mention the kids waking up crying...Hmm red herring indeed! The shutter and window was not used as entry - exit and Kate's knowing Maddie was abducted because of that scene is pure fantasy.
Burglars casing a joint would not be wanting children, they want money, jewels etc. abduction? well why not abduct all three kids? You know if there was more thanone involved and cars were used... but then Jane only saw one abductor....tsk
McCanns trying to re write their own history now? THEY left a door unlocked...responsibility lies wholly with the parents. Now you can jiggle all you like, but that is the fact.
True, but what fun the rest of have seeing folk giving each other high fives for their incisive thinking.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 28, 2015, 12:10:27 AM
True, but what fun the rest of have seeing folk giving each other high fives for their incisive thinking.
Indeed Alice!
I oft wonder.... this 'story' smacks of Peter Pan...children being left alone- the eldest sister in charge of sibings... people flying out windows- parents returing from a ball to find them gone...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 12:12:50 AM
Both KM and GM deduced immediately that the window was opened from outside. As it happens they were correct about that IMO. But now posters who support them are posting every argument under the sun against that correct (IMO) solution.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Miss Taken Identity on September 28, 2015, 12:25:45 AM
Both KM and GM deduced immediately that the window was opened from outside. As it happens they were correct about that IMO. But now posters who support them are posting every argument under the sun against that correct solution.
Yes, when the first story is trashed they find another event and so on...... same with the time line. reminds me of playing who dun it...Miss Scarlet in the ballroom with the rope, or colonel Mustard...KM and GM deduced a lot of things that did not add up... forgrrabout it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 12:33:00 AM
Another thing that is strange is the idea that a child is incapable of getting out of bed and going to another room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 28, 2015, 01:39:53 AM
Both KM and GM deduced immediately that the window was opened from outside. As it happens they were correct about that IMO. But now posters who support them are posting every argument under the sun against that correct (IMO) solution.
You follow any evidence and see if it matches with their story. Not touching a window and evidence being found on it doesn't fit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 01:56:15 AM
You follow any evidence and see if it matches with their story. Not touching a window and evidence being found on it doesn't fit.
But what is your theory about this bedroom? For a start, how many people were in this bedroom at 7.30pm IYO? And what is your theory of the 5 identified fingerprints on the glass?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: slartibartfast on September 28, 2015, 08:36:59 AM
Agreed, my Grandson is a year younger and already does.
Ah but assuming you left the bedroom door only about an inch ajar, it would be impossible for a your grandchild to squeeze through that gap and go to another room wouldn't it? I spent many months incognito in the opium dens of the london docklands pondering this apparently unsolvable problem. Finally I came up with a possible answer, involving a devilishly cunning application of carefully calculated force in order to modify an angle. But it is so far-fetched and complicated that few here would believe it.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 28, 2015, 10:45:40 AM
Ah but assuming you left the bedroom door only about an inch ajar, it would be impossible for a your grandchild to squeeze through that gap and go to another room wouldn't it? I spent many months incognito in the opium dens of the london docklands pondering this apparently unsolvable problem. Finally I came up with a possible answer, involving a devilishly cunning application of carefully calculated force in order to modify an angle. But it is so far-fetched and complicated that few here would believe it.
I won't ask what you were doing in opium dens. LOL But what's the unsolvable problem? People getting through small spaces?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 10:56:18 AM
There were definitely 5 KM prints on the inside surface of the glass Pathfinder. Which fits with the witness leaning to look out the window just as she says. Why don't you tell us your alternative explanation for those 5 prints on the glass?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 11:06:47 AM
I won't ask what you were doing in opium dens. LOL But what's the unsolvable problem? People getting through small spaces?
Place a bedroom door so that it is almost closed, leaving only a one inch gap. Surely now a child cannot walk from the bedroom to another room. The gap is too small. That was the problem to be solved. It seems some here have not solved it yet - why else would their theories insist the child did not walk from the bedroom to another room?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Carana on September 28, 2015, 11:31:45 AM
Place a bedroom door so that it is almost closed, leaving only a one inch gap. Surely now a child cannot walk from the bedroom to another room. The gap is too small. That was the problem to be solved. It seems some here have not solved it yet - why else would their theories insist the child did not walk from the bedroom to another room?
LOL I thought you were being serious.
Obviously she could have opened the door further and gone out.
I'm curious about the idea that all three checkers that evening found the door more ajar than usual at different points in the evening. Could it simply have been air movement from opening / closing the patio door on Gerry and Matt's checks or not?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2015, 11:52:17 AM
There were definitely 5 KM prints on the inside surface of the glass Pathfinder. Which fits with the witness leaning to look out the window just as she says. Why don't you tell us your alternative explanation for those 5 prints on the glass?
If you lean out of a window how many times do you touch the glass? Once? Twice? Three times?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 11:52:54 AM
Obviously she could have opened the door further and gone out.
I'm curious about the idea that all three checkers that evening found the door more ajar than usual at different points in the evening. Could it simply have been air movement from opening / closing the patio door on Gerry and Matt's checks or not?
"Obviously she could have opened the door further and gone out" Agreed completely but try telling that to some people and they won't believe you.
There is a mantra in some circles which says "under no circumstances could the child have awoken got out of bed and looked for the parents".
The wind direction (from weather data and from witness statement) was in the window and out the bedroom door. The door opens into the bedroom. To make the wind open the bedroom door you would need a gust in the opposite direction of the wind.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 28, 2015, 12:38:44 PM
There were definitely 5 KM prints on the inside surface of the glass Pathfinder. Which fits with the witness leaning to look out the window just as she says. Why don't you tell us your alternative explanation for those 5 prints on the glass?
Only 2 fingers. You don't lean out of a window using only 2 fingers @)(++(*
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 28, 2015, 12:41:59 PM
There were definitely 5 KM prints on the inside surface of the glass Pathfinder. Which fits with the witness leaning to look out the window just as she says. Why don't you tell us your alternative explanation for those 5 prints on the glass?
All that really indicates is that sometime during the week she did that, not necessarily that night.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 12:51:10 PM
That's not in her statements on 4 May and 6 September 2007.
The 4 May statement was written down as a summary in portuguese and does not include everything the witness said. The 6 Sept statement was about an earlier time period. Do you have a theory yet about when and why the 5 identified prints were made on the window glass?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on September 28, 2015, 01:44:44 PM
The 4 May statement was written down as a summary in portuguese and does not include everything the witness said. The 6 Sept statement was about an earlier time period. Do you have a theory yet about when and why the 5 identified prints were made on the window glass?
It includes the first things she did which wasn't looking out the window searching for any sign of her daughter.
"She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 01:57:47 PM
It includes the first things she did which wasn't looking out the window searching for any sign of her daughter.
"She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
I agree it doesn't mention looking out the window, however IMO the witness did look out the window, and the reason is, the witness at a later date said so, and there is no reason to not believe that. How can others benefit from your theory about this check if you don't say what your ideas are? To start with, do you think this witness did enter the child bedroom at about 10pm? Or not?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 28, 2015, 02:16:29 PM
It includes the first things she did which wasn't looking out the window searching for any sign of her daughter.
"She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.
Faced with this situation,she verified that the twins were in their respective beds, unlike Madeleine, who had disappeared. The cover was pulled back and the toys were on the pillow as usual. After searching the whole apartment thoroughly, the interviewee went back, scared and shocked, to the restaurant, to alert her husband and the others to the disappearance."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm
Except that both Gerry and Matt had been in the apartment since she left at 8.0 ish, whatever, so she could not possibly know what position Matt had left the door in.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 02:33:06 PM
As soon as the child was discovered missing from the bedroom, both parents and every adult member of the group and many other people too, all considered various versions of the obvious scenario that the child might have woken up, got out of bed, and either looked for the parents or hidden somewhere.
Yet today, look at all the other theories (abduction or non-abduction) by posters here, and try to find one which includes that obvious and elementary possibility?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 02:36:40 PM
As soon as the child was discovered missing from the bedroom, both parents and every adult member of the group and many other people too, all considered various versions of the obvious scenario that the child might have woken up, got out of bed, and either looked for the parents or hidden somewhere.
Yet today, look at all the other theories (abduction or non-abduction) by posters here, and try to find one which includes that obvious and elementary possibility?
When the hope that Madeleine had wakened and wandered was dashed by the fact she was not found ... other possibilities had to be considered. That the window was opened with the shutter raised and no-one with legitimate access having done that ... gives the clue that someone else had accessed the apartment.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 02:53:27 PM
... the window was opened with the shutter raised and no-one with legitimate access having done that ...
I agree with you about that Brietta. Another thing I think we agree on is that a child was asleep on a bed. Both facts are true, so the question is.... What would happen if a child asleep on a bed was awoken by a stranger opening the window and shutter?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: jassi on September 28, 2015, 02:54:49 PM
Correct, and that is exactly what she says, I don't see any discrepancy there.
I suppose it is down to how you interpret her " certain of having closed them all " To me, 'all' includes the door because she mentioned it along with curtains and window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 03:02:51 PM
I suppose it is down to how you interpret her " certain of having closed them all " To me, 'all' includes the door because she mentioned it along with curtains and window.
Yes but the text was written down in the interview room in portuguese after being verbally translated by a translator, so to assume that every tiny nuance of meaning survives translation is unrealistic IMO.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 28, 2015, 03:05:50 PM
I agree with you about that Brietta. Another thing I think we agree on is that a child was asleep on a bed. Both facts are true, so the question is.... What would happen if a child asleep on a bed was awoken by a stranger opening the window and shutter?
I don't think she was awakened by the raising of the shutter. When she did wake up she wasn't where she should have been.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 28, 2015, 03:11:42 PM
So shutters opened from inside, rather than outside?
I was actually hoping for a time-scale, but perhaps pegasus can supply that.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on September 28, 2015, 03:57:21 PM
The abductor didn't come in through the window in my opinion.
Though one thing has always puzzled me, one of the arguments that the abductor couldn't have come in through the window was 'there were no footprints on the bed' well, I often think about what those two children said when a stranger got into the bed they were in during the night. When he got out he was wearing covers on his feet like surgeons who are going to do an operation.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 28, 2015, 04:01:26 PM
So shutters opened from inside, rather than outside?
I was actually hoping for a time-scale, but perhaps pegasus can supply that.
Why on earth would you be hoping for a time scale? The only person or group of people who have any firm idea of any sort of time-scale are those responsible for carrying out the abduction.
My speculation or anyone else's on the forum doesn't quite cut the mustard as far as that is concerned ... but I think a little patience may may pay dividends towards finding out.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 28, 2015, 04:07:00 PM
The abductor didn't come in through the window in my opinion.
Though one thing has always puzzled me, one of the arguments that the abductor couldn't have come in through the window was 'there were no footprints on the bed' well, I often think about what those two children said when a stranger got into the bed they were in during the night. When he got out he was wearing covers on his feet like surgeons who are going to do an operation.
I find it quite extraordinary that because an intruder apparently left no forensic evidence by definition there was no intruder.
Home invaders may not be particularly nice folk but that doesn't necessarily make them imbeciles ... of course they will take precautions. Even Lizzie Borden stripped off all those years ago, I believe.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on September 28, 2015, 04:13:29 PM
I find it quite extraordinary that because an intruder apparently left no forensic evidence by definition there was no intruder.
Home invaders may not be particularly nice folk but that doesn't necessarily make them imbeciles ... of course they will take precautions. Even Lizzie Borden stripped off all those years ago, I believe.
Hardened criminals don't leave calling cards do they.
I don't know they could say there were no footprints, the bed was in a right mess, expect they were looking for dusty prints from shoes.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on September 28, 2015, 04:17:48 PM
Amaral said the abductor couldn't have come in through the front door as it was undamaged and couldn't be picked.
He failed to wonder if they had a key though.
How did the person who abused those children get into the apartments? Surely Amaral knew about these assaults.
A statement from people who stayed in 5a before the McCann's said that they were irritated by the maid just coming into the apartment, so they locked the door and put the key in it. The maid still managed to come in with her key, how?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 28, 2015, 04:35:50 PM
Amaral said the abductor couldn't have come in through the front door as it was undamaged and couldn't be picked.
He failed to wonder if they had a key though.
How did the person who abused those children get into the apartments? Surely Amaral knew about these assaults.
A statement from people who stayed in 5a before the McCann's said that they were irritated by the maid just coming into the apartment, so they locked the door and put the key in it. The maid still managed to come in with her key, how?
Unfortunately no-one bothered to ask Mr D'Ambrosio about any problems he may have encountered during his residency until the end of April 2008 when he confirmed that during his stay the shutters were fine but he didn't think they locked. Seems the notion of the possibility of using a key for entry had been totally disregarded.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: stephen25000 on September 28, 2015, 05:09:42 PM
Amaral said the abductor couldn't have come in through the front door as it was undamaged and couldn't be picked.
He failed to wonder if they had a key though.
How did the person who abused those children get into the apartments? Surely Amaral knew about these assaults.
A statement from people who stayed in 5a before the McCann's said that they were irritated by the maid just coming into the apartment, so they locked the door and put the key in it. The maid still managed to come in with her key, how?
Ask Scotty. 8)--))
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2015, 05:45:44 PM
Amaral said the abductor couldn't have come in through the front door as it was undamaged and couldn't be picked.
He failed to wonder if they had a key though.
How did the person who abused those children get into the apartments? Surely Amaral knew about these assaults.
A statement from people who stayed in 5a before the McCann's said that they were irritated by the maid just coming into the apartment, so they locked the door and put the key in it. The maid still managed to come in with her key, how?
I thought 'villas' were mentioned, not apartments in Praia da Luz?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Lace on September 28, 2015, 08:25:31 PM
I thought 'villas' were mentioned, not apartments in Praia da Luz?
You are correct G-Unit, they were villas not apartments -
Of the 12 cases, two occurred in Praia de Luz — where Madeleine was staying when she disappeared — four in the holiday resort of Carvoeiro and six in the Vale da Parra and Praia da Gale districts west of Albufeira.
There were no signs of forced entry, so how did this person get into these villas?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on September 28, 2015, 09:38:05 PM
You are correct G-Unit, they were villas not apartments -
Of the 12 cases, two occurred in Praia de Luz — where Madeleine was staying when she disappeared — four in the holiday resort of Carvoeiro and six in the Vale da Parra and Praia da Gale districts west of Albufeira.
There were no signs of forced entry, so how did this person get into these villas?
Not with an Ocean Club key. I haven't seen the details of these cases, have you?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 02:13:05 AM
So you think that while a stranger was opening the shutter from inside, the child was laying on her bed? Was the child awake or asleep at this moment? If awake why didn't she run out of the room? If asleep why did she not get woken by the shutter noise and run out of the room?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2015, 10:30:30 AM
So you think that while a stranger was opening the shutter from inside, the child was laying on her bed? Was the child awake or asleep at this moment? If awake why didn't she run out of the room? If asleep why did she not get woken by the shutter noise and run out of the room?
You have a fixation that the child had to run from the room.
There is no evidence to support that.
There is witness evidence that the child was seen lying on top of the covers apparently asleep at a point in time when there is no evidence to suggest the shutter had as yet been raised.
If as you think she ran, where did she run to? and why was she not found, the burglary attempt having been aborted as you think, I presume Madeleine would have run in one direction while the burglar ran in the other never the twain to meet. So where is she?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 12:16:37 PM
There is witness evidence that the child was seen lying on top of the covers apparently asleep at a point in time when there is no evidence to suggest the shutter had as yet been raised.
Agreed. So the starting situation just after GM check is simple: child asleep on bed, window closed, shutter closed, door almost closed.
You have a fixation that the child had to run from the room. There is no evidence to support that.
There are two bits of evidence to support that. 1. the almost closed door had been opened. 2. the child was no longer in the room. (see "The Zen of Passing through Doorways" by T. Ockham)
If as you think she ran, where did she run to? and why was she not found, the burglary attempt having been aborted as you think, I presume Madeleine would have run in one direction while the burglar ran in the other never the twain to meet. So where is she?
Thankyou you have understood the theory very well. Yes opposite directions and burglar plays no further part. So the starting position is now: window open, shutter open, bedroom door open, child is awake and going out of bedroom doorway. Where to next I don't know, an instinctive place at first anyway might be the other bedroom, but there are other possibilities. The progress made if correct is a total revelation (more fundamental than Mr R's) to this completely different starting position, and IMO from that it should be possible to solve what happens next, I just haven't succeeded yet. Please note that in this theory the resulting incident scene is exactly as described truthfully by the checker at 10pm.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2015, 12:50:27 PM
Agreed. So the starting situation just after GM check is simple: child asleep on bed, window closed, shutter closed, door almost closed. There are two bits of evidence to support that. 1. the almost closed door had been opened. 2. the child was no longer in the room. (see "The Zen of Passing through Doorways" by T. Ockham) Thankyou you have understood the theory very well. Yes opposite directions and burglar plays no further part. So the starting position is now: window open, shutter open, bedroom door open, child is awake and going out of bedroom doorway. Where to next I don't know, an instinctive place at first anyway might be the other bedroom, but there are other possibilities. The progress made if correct is a total revelation (more fundamental than Mr R's) to this completely different starting position, and IMO from that it should be possible to solve what happens next, I just haven't succeeded yet. Please note that in this theory the resulting incident scene is exactly as described truthfully by the checker at 10pm.
If the child was running in a panic the door would have been thrown wide and either remained wide or bounced back to a more closed position than that in which it was found.
Had she run out of the sliding doors and down the outside stair it is more probable she would have turned to run downhill towards a better lit area than turn to run uphill into a less well lighted place.
It is unlikely she would have run onto the road to be injured by a passing vehicle; it is unlikely she would have run past the lighted mini reception area; it is unlikely she would not have been seen at a time when people were returning home with some collecting children from the night crèche.
Is Praia da Luz the type of town where predators lurk on every street corner on the off chance a tot will run out of his\her accommodation and into their hands?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on September 29, 2015, 04:01:39 PM
If the child was running in a panic the door would have been thrown wide and either remained wide or bounced back to a more closed position than that in which it was found.
Had she run out of the sliding doors and down the outside stair it is more probable she would have turned to run downhill towards a better lit area than turn to run uphill into a less well lighted place.
It is unlikely she would have run onto the road to be injured by a passing vehicle; it is unlikely she would have run past the lighted mini reception area; it is unlikely she would not have been seen at a time when people were returning home with some collecting children from the night crèche.
Is Praia da Luz the type of town where predators lurk on every street corner on the off chance a tot will run out of his\her accommodation and into their hands?
Does PdL have predators lurking on every corner? The little town of Kendall in Australia had a washing machine engineer implicated in child sexual abuse directly connected to the house from where William Tyrrell disappeared & it now seems the owner of a truck parked directly opposite the house on the same day also has a paedophile conviction. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249677/William-Tyrrell-breakthrough-Police-investigating-missing-toddler-seize-car-belonging-convicted-child-abuser-person-case.html
Given the number of people who were pointing fingers at each other from the outset, there must have been local knowledge of undesirables in the vicinity.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on September 29, 2015, 04:17:33 PM
Agreed, in the hypothetical scenario of going out the garden gate, the direction taken would be downhill (south), see this theory by expert Mark Williams-Thomas. "...She found the back patio door was insecure and partly open so she walked out, went down the small flight of steps and out of the gate, turning right down towards the entrance to the resort and the Tapas bar. It was at this point that she was most likely abducted by an opportunistic..." http://news.sky.com/story/599836/madeleine-my-theories-on-missing-girl
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on September 29, 2015, 05:59:03 PM
Does PdL have predators lurking on every corner? The little town of Kendall in Australia had a washing machine engineer implicated in child sexual abuse directly connected to the house from where William Tyrrell disappeared & it now seems the owner of a truck parked directly opposite the house on the same day also has a paedophile conviction. http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3249677/William-Tyrrell-breakthrough-Police-investigating-missing-toddler-seize-car-belonging-convicted-child-abuser-person-case.html
Given the number of people who were pointing fingers at each other from the outset, there must have been local knowledge of undesirables in the vicinity.
Thanks for that update, Misty. It seems there is no let up in the police investigation for William and yes ... there are a lot of evil people around maybe known to each other and maybe even in collaboration.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 03:55:02 AM
Step one is to realise this: It looked and sounded like everyone was out.
Step two is look at 5L burglary which Scotland Yard states was entry in through a window (IMO a bedroom window).
Step three is to ask: "If, completely unpredicted by the 5L burglar, on opening the shutter and window of that 5L bedroom he had suddenly seen a child at the other end of that bedroom woken by the shutter noise, what would the burglar have immediately done, and what would the child immediately have done?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 03, 2015, 09:24:56 AM
"It being 22h03, he turned to alert KATE that it was time for her to go to see the children."
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 03, 2015, 02:55:51 PM
IMO at that time in the restaurant (2203 or whenever it was), back at the apartment the window and shutter were in the open positions.
Was the net curtain pushed away from the open window? Speaking from my own experiences, nets are difficult to move very far along a rod or wire when gripping the curtain from the side. I don't think anyone outside the window would have been able to reach the top of the net.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 05, 2015, 12:15:38 AM
Was the net curtain pushed away from the open window? Speaking from my own experiences, nets are difficult to move very far along a rod or wire when gripping the curtain from the side. I don't think anyone outside the window would have been able to reach the top of the net.
There is absolutely no need to "open" (slide top along wire or rod) the net curtains, because net curtains provide no resistance to reaching in and operating the shutter strap (which IMO did happen), and would provide no resistance to climbing in (which IMO did not happen).
And back to your comparision on other thread, you were comparing two sober people in a restaurant with two fictional alcoholically comatose people asleep in bed. Why not compare like with like? Relevant to this case, compare two sober adults in a restaurant with two sober adults asleep in bed.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 12:37:39 AM
There is absolutely no need to do that, because net curtains provide no resistance to reaching in and operating the shutter strap (which IMO did happen), and would provide no resistance to climbing in (which IMO did not happen).
And back to your comparision on other thread, you were comparing two sober people in a restaurant with two completely alcoholically comatose people asleep in bed. Why not compare like with like? Compare two sober adults in a restaurant with two sober adults asleep in bed.
Net curtains plus main curtains are a considerable barrier to a potential intruder, especially one who doesn't know what awaits him underneath the window. In the situation you describe, the intruder could only have heard a child, not seen one, unless the intruder was disturbed by someone approaching in the car park.
Sober adults in bed v sober adults in restaurant :- we have already been made aware of intruders in children's bedrooms while the parents were on the balcony and no sound of entry was heard. I'm not aware as I type how the various intruders left the premises. If the event occurred at, say, 3am, entry was gained using a key & Madeleine was chloroformed & removed, would the parents have heard anything? I don't know. Many people don't hear anything through their sleep during a house burglary. It would have posed a greater risk for an abductor in those circumstances. It may have been much more difficult for the parents to demonstrate their innocence, given the lack of forensics and the greater timeframe in which cadaver concealment could have taken place.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 05, 2015, 12:45:31 AM
(snip) ... I do not think they would have been received any more special treatment had they been asleep in bed - imo it would have been much more difficult for them to have demonstrated their innocence.
This is a very interesting point. Let's imagine the adults had gone to bed early at 8.30pm and were asleep. What would have happened then if someone had opened the child bedroom window and shutter from outside?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 12:48:02 AM
From another threadThis is a very interesting point. Let's imagine the adults had gone to bed early at 8.30pm and were asleep. What would have happened then if someone had opened the child bedroom window and shutter from outside?
At what time, hypothetically?
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 05, 2015, 12:49:58 AM
From another threadThis is a very interesting point. Let's imagine the adults had gone to bed early at 8.30pm and were asleep. What would have happened then if someone had opened the child bedroom window and shutter from outside?
I think the outcome would have been exactly as it was with the exception that instead of Madeleine's absence being noticed at 10.00pm she would not have been missed till the morning.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 05, 2015, 12:52:29 AM
Net curtains plus main curtains are a considerable barrier to a potential intruder, especially one who doesn't know what awaits him underneath the window. In the situation you describe, the intruder could only have heard a child, not seen one, unless the intruder was disturbed by someone approaching in the car park.
Sober adults in bed v sober adults in restaurant :- we have already been made aware of intruders in children's bedrooms while the parents were on the balcony and no sound of entry was heard. I'm not aware as I type how the various intruders left the premises. If the event occurred at, say, 3am, entry was gained using a key & Madeleine was chloroformed & removed, would the parents have heard anything? I don't know. Many people don't hear anything through their sleep during a house burglary. It would have posed a greater risk for an abductor in those circumstances. It may have been much more difficult for the parents to demonstrate their innocence, given the lack of forensics and the greater timeframe in which cadaver concealment could have taken place.
But the fact you omit is that someone opened the the child bedroom shutter and window. Surely that would wake the child, who would then obviously run into the other bedroom and wake the parents.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pegasus on October 05, 2015, 12:59:01 AM
I think the outcome would have been exactly as it was with the exception that instead of Madeleine's absence being noticed at 10.00pm she would not have been missed till the morning.
But surely the noise of the shutter being opened would have woken the sleeping parents (even if they were both sleeping in the other room), also it would have woken the child.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 01:07:09 AM
But the fact you omit is that someone opened the the child bedroom shutter and window. Surely that would wake the child, who would then obviously run into the other bedroom and wake the parents.
If the child was sedated first, there would be no waking. The shutters produce much less noise when opened from the inside. Had the parents' bedroom door been closed and the children's door too, then any noise would have been minimal in the parents' room.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: pathfinder73 on October 05, 2015, 01:24:40 AM
If the child was sedated first, there would be no waking. The shutters produce much less noise when opened from the inside. Had the parents' bedroom door been closed and the children's door too, then any noise would have been minimal in the parents' room.
Well we are back again to the obvious point, that as soon as your intruder had sedated the child in your scenario, your intruder would exit out the front door, without wasting time walking to the other end of the room and opening the window and shutter - that would be completely pointless.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 01:41:57 AM
Well we are back again to the obvious point, that as soon as your intruder had sedated the child in your scenario, your intruder would exit out the front door, without wasting time walking to the other end of the room and opening the window and shutter - that would be completely pointless.
If the parents walked into the room, the intruder would be trapped without the open window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 05, 2015, 01:47:30 AM
Well we are back again to the obvious point, that as soon as your intruder had sedated the child in your scenario, your intruder would exit out the front door, without wasting time walking to the other end of the room and opening the window and shutter - that would be completely pointless.
If the intruder entered via the front door, a quick look would have ascertained that the parents' bedroom door was closed.
Quick entry into children's room quietly closing the door behind.
Open window and raise shutter as an escape route should the parents be alerted, or to pass the child to an accomplice
Sedate the child
Either pass her through the window or walk out the front door with her
There is nothing to say that having passed the child through, the intruder might not follow and use the window as an exit. It could all have been easily and quickly accomplished while the parents slept.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 05, 2015, 01:50:55 AM
If the parents walked into the room, the intruder would be trapped without the open window.
Definitely an escape route. An intruder would not have allowed himself to be cornered like a rat in a trap and would have had enough time to get out if the parents were heard moving about.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 02:01:04 AM
Definitely an escape route. An intruder would not have allowed himself to be cornered like a rat in a trap and would have had enough time to get out if the parents were heard moving about.
He would have been cornered. After entering the apartment, he would have had to close the front door, only opening it again when ready to exit.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on October 05, 2015, 08:08:38 AM
Well we are back again to the obvious point, that as soon as your intruder had sedated the child in your scenario, your intruder would exit out the front door, without wasting time walking to the other end of the room and opening the window and shutter - that would be completely pointless.
To say the child was sedated it's necessary to describe how that was accomplished.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: misty on October 05, 2015, 12:28:28 PM
It can also be home-made. The choice sedation method used by child abductors, as per Wendy Murphy (US expert on all things McCann)
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on October 05, 2015, 12:50:12 PM
Sedation - sounds like an extremely complicated plan. Add in a key and we are in bank heist type territory - not to say that is completely incredible as to some stealing a child is as valuable as a large sum of money and possibly carries a greater penalty, so imo the same planning may go into a child abduction. Although a peodophile imo is unlikely given the child's age, which is good for Madeleine. The simplest method imo would be opening the shutter from the outside and enticing the child over to the window. I fail to see how luring the child to the window is not a very definite possibility. It has the advantage of completely explaining the state of the crime scene too.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 05, 2015, 02:09:53 PM
Sedation - sounds like an extremely complicated plan. Add in a key and we are in bank heist type territory - not to say that is completely incredible as to some stealing a child is as valuable as a large sum of money and possibly carries a greater penalty, so imo the same planning may go into a child abduction. Although a peodophile imo is unlikely given the child's age, which is good for Madeleine. The simplest method imo would be opening the shutter from the outside and enticing the child over to the window. I fail to see how luring the child to the window is not a very definite possibility. It has the advantage of completely explaining the state of the crime scene too.
Apparently sedation was the MO of Raymond Hewlett a known paedophile who was in the area at the time of Madeleine's disappearance.
The lifting through the window is certainly the simplest explanation ... particularly if Madeleine's name was known.
However I think it leaves too many hostages to fortune. If it was a planned abduction there was no guarantee that Madeleine would have gone anywhere near the window.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: lordpookles on October 05, 2015, 03:05:02 PM
Yup regarding 'hostages to fortune' I was thinking of someone trying their luck. Of course if it is someone Madeleine knew I would expect the chances of success to go up quite a bit. If someone wants something badly enough there is no limit or lenghts to what someone may do or how cunning they may be to get what they want. Makes you think... There can be only one way it happened obviously. Would be interesting to hear what other theories people in here may have - I mean just possible theories that revolve around abduction...
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on October 05, 2015, 08:18:26 PM
So someone bought some. Did he use it? How long does it take to work? How long does it last?
Apparently so. He's on trial for murder. How long does it take to work? Depends on the strength used. It is a cheap alternative to benzodiazepines as favoured by those sedating children for child porn purposes. I'll let you do your own research as we have discussed this topic already.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: G-Unit on October 06, 2015, 09:10:41 AM
Apparently so. He's on trial for murder. How long does it take to work? Depends on the strength used. It is a cheap alternative to benzodiazepines as favoured by those sedating children for child porn purposes. I'll let you do your own research as we have discussed this topic already.
He bought some, it doesn't say he used it. We have discussed this before and no-one was able to demonstrate how chloroform could have been of use in this case.
Title: Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
Post by: Brietta on October 06, 2015, 12:14:45 PM
Apparently so. He's on trial for murder. How long does it take to work? Depends on the strength used. It is a cheap alternative to benzodiazepines as favoured by those sedating children for child porn purposes. I'll let you do your own research as we have discussed this topic already.
Why is one advised never to leave a drink unattended in a pub ... could it be anything to do with the chance someone may take the opportunity to 'spike' it with some substance or other?
However there is evidence that chloroform has been used in criminal acts ... and there is no reason to believe that it is the only sedative of choice among criminals.
Lab technician knocked out student with chloroform A secondary school lab technician rendered a 17-year-old girl unconscious by tricking her into donning a chloroform mask.
**Snip The senior lab technician then applied the chloroform from a brown bottle marked ''Chemical Odour Neutraliser''.
And when Sayeda tried to remove it after she started to feel unwell, Shreeve simply added more chloroform and insisted she keep it on. He even pretended to put some on his own mask.
Shreeve raised the alarm after Sayeda had drifted into unconsciousness.
First on the scene was teacher Robert Davies, who described Sayeda as 'completely out of it' and Shreeve fanning her with a book, the court heard.
Yup regarding 'hostages to fortune' I was thinking of someone trying their luck. Of course if it is someone Madeleine knew I would expect the chances of success to go up quite a bit. If someone wants something badly enough there is no limit or lenghts to what someone may do or how cunning they may be to get what they want. Makes you think... There can be only one way it happened obviously. Would be interesting to hear what other theories people in here may have - I mean just possible theories that revolve around abduction...
I personally do not believe that Maddie was stolen by people jemmying shutters- and all that whooshing.
When discussing this a few years back, with friends at work, there was a few theories which you may be interested in; 1. Kate as an aethetist, gave the children a mild sleeping tonic- so they would not wake. 2. Maddie was removed from the apartment, alive, by someone she knew. Some one who may have been abusing her. 3. Maddie woke up and went to her parents room and accidentally swallowed pills? cause her to die, this was why an abduction had to be staged.
(there were more, I am not going to add them due to the nature of them)
All just theories in the absence of knowing what acutally happened.
It had to be a dramatic abduction theory pushed by the McCANNS, anything else would have been bad PR.
And some people on here and else where, still add to that by saying: well, even if the parents were in the apartment Maddie would still have been abducted. ew