Author Topic: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?  (Read 414056 times)

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Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #210 on: November 24, 2013, 07:20:24 PM »
Yep, this one's a petty criminal. Not a big operation. Plenty other opportunities in the vicinity so he'll readily flee the scene and take his chances another time.

Where did you get this info, Pegasus?
Sunday Express in May 2011 mentions a successful (uninterupted) burglary of another apartment in block 5. Not having complete faith in the accuracy of this type of UK paper ;) I checked it, and found it wasn't in block 5, it was in the next block uphill. Checking further I found very indirectly a list of stolen items.
BTW the burglary victim at police station met two others reporting similar, burglary with no sign of forced entry. So people assume it is must be someone with set of keys. I think that is wrong. Psycologically tourists think apartment is secure if shutters are down. This is not always correct. These are all unforced entry without key, via shutter and window IMO.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 07:37:17 PM by pegasus »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #211 on: November 24, 2013, 07:53:20 PM »
Sunday Express in May 2011 mentions a successful (uninterupted) burglary of another apartment in block 5. Not having complete faith in the accuracy of this type of UK paper ;) I checked it, and found it wasn't in block 5, it was in the next block uphill. Checking further I found very indirectly a list of stolen items.
BTW the burglary victim at police station met two others reporting similar, burglary with no sign of forced entry. So people assume it is must be someone with set of keys. I think that is wrong. Psycologically tourists think apartment is secure if shutters are down. This is not always correct. These are all unforced entry without key, via shutter and window IMO.

Thanks for all the research. I do find it interesting that there were no signs of forced entry in at least two of the burglaries, and also no sign of forced entry at 5A. Perhaps no connection - but definitely worth investigating.

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #212 on: November 24, 2013, 08:11:07 PM »
The rog of RO contains a lot of useful information about the window and shutter, and describes how the group, like us, questioned how it is possible for someone to open them from outside. The question of whether there is auto-locking is examined. Also the action needed to lock the window is examined. Also the possible method of opening closed shutter and closed window from outside, if the window is not locked.

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #213 on: November 24, 2013, 08:43:18 PM »
Sunday Express in May 2011 mentions a successful (uninterupted) burglary of another apartment in block 5. Not having complete faith in the accuracy of this type of UK paper ;) I checked it, and found it wasn't in block 5, it was in the next block uphill. Checking further I found very indirectly a list of stolen items.
BTW the burglary victim at police station met two others reporting similar, burglary with no sign of forced entry. So people assume it is must be someone with set of keys. I think that is wrong. Psycologically tourists think apartment is secure if shutters are down. This is not always correct. These are all unforced entry without key, via shutter and window IMO.

What source did you use  when you did your checking ?

Please can you tell us where we can  we find this information  ?

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #214 on: November 24, 2013, 10:04:45 PM »
What source did you use  when you did your checking ?

Please can you tell us where we can  we find this information  ?
Re that successful and uninterupted burgary of an apartment in an adjacent block, see for example see Evening Standard 21 Aug 2007
http://www.mccannfiles.com/id331.html
P.S. there are other sources too for example one of the Sunday Express articles linked earlier this thread.
« Last Edit: November 24, 2013, 10:07:51 PM by pegasus »

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #215 on: November 24, 2013, 11:17:04 PM »
I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread

Five experts  (  and they really  are experts )  analysed the three possible theories  :

That Madeleine woke and wandered

That she was abducted

That her parents were involved in her disappearance

What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option  ( involvement of the parents  ) .  It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of  'staging'  a crime

The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories  (  woke and wandered/ abduction )   because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios

I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters  other  than that they were opened as part of the  staging of  a crime

I know  other explanations have been sought   ...  but that's the thing  ...  other explanations have to be 'imagined'

There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately  screams abduction   ...  on the contrary,  it is something that somehow has to be  'fitted in'  with abduction theory

I am in agreement with the experts on this matter
Back to the first post of this thread, and a very good one it is.

About the first theory (woke and wandered).
Is it possible that shutter noise causes the waking?

P.S. About the 2nd theory (abduction): If there was an abductor and he entered through that window, IMO the noise would have cause waking and exit to another room. So if abduction happened, it would be from a different room, not that room.

About the 3rd theory, in the Verdade film the child actor randomly wakes up for no reason, and relaxedly leaves the room. No reason for waking is provided. Instead could it not be noise of the shutter opening which causes this?

« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:05:43 AM by pegasus »

Offline Angelo222

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #216 on: November 25, 2013, 12:02:58 AM »
The open window and shutter have been proven to have no relevance to any abduction.  Neither were forced, neither had any discernible prints or marks on them consistent with having been opened from the outside.  In addition, no evidence was found on the outer or inner sill or on the bedroom floor of any intruder having entered the room via the window.  In conclusion it can only but be inferred that the whole window/shutter issue was an elaborate hoax.

« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:04:58 AM by Angelo222 »
De troothe has the annoying habit of coming to the surface just when you least expect it!!

Je ne regrette rien!!

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #217 on: November 25, 2013, 12:15:07 AM »
IMO no intruder of any type (abductor or burglar) ever set foot in the apartment.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:17:06 AM by pegasus »

Offline Meadow

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #218 on: November 25, 2013, 07:37:02 AM »
Sorry, firstly if I have jumped in and this has in the past 15 pages been discussed.  I have followed the case from almost the next day it happened.  The twists the turns.

But what always seemed impossible of the jemmied\forced\broken shutter,  SELDOM do  you see mentioned the window?  you know those things made of glass.

It was a chilly evening, does everyone assume the window was 'open'.  OK, or what about locked?

Why was there no broken glass?  Big risk forcing a shutter to find a locked window!!

Whilst all the speculation took a very slow way forward back on the MF in those early days,  bit by bit things were  teased out and apart.

So WHAT ABOUT THE WINDOW!!

Everyone who had the opportunity to read, ''Beyond the smears''  all became EXPLAINED and clear.

The Times on Sunday (eeemmm sound familiar)  David Smith 16 December 2007, whilst still under judicial secrecy.
Scroll to just over half way.

http://www.mccannfiles.com/id96.html

''There was a latch lock on the sliding glass window, and the McCanns thought, but could not be sure, that they had locked it at the start of the holiday. They would later discover it was common for cleaners to open the shutters and windows to give the rooms an airing, so there was no way of knowing whether the window was locked that night or not and no forensic trace to indicate where and how an abductor had gone in and out. They could easily have used the front door, perhaps even had access to a key. ''

The one thing about this article, and please read and if it's some time since you last visited it, squeeze your buttocks and read it again.

The article is worthy of a thread of it's own, as it was in the beginning, so it is now.

But since there is no need of a break in, in the timeline whilst Mr McC stood outside chatting to JW the relevance of the shutter, or the potential abductor already in situ and hiding has become redundant. Since JT's sighting discounted as a parent with a child (oddly walking in the wrong direction from the sleep in creche)

The abductor so casually could have walked in and out of the patio door which was unlocked but would find difficulty in closing it, whilst holding a child & fiddling with all the layers of curtains, or merely walk out of the front main door, which has NEVER been established whether it was deadlock thus preventing exit  (read JT's roggie - they deadlocked their main door to prevent their eldest getting out!)

Come down on the side of logic here, in through the sliding rear doors and out front on the car park side.  So why no vehicle, or perhaps there was.  And in time even the Smith's sighting will be discounted and have everyone walking the wrong way at the wrong time.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 07:39:28 AM by Meadow »

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #219 on: November 25, 2013, 12:32:37 PM »
Nobody went through the window or Madeleine woke up and left the apartment to go into the dark black night and closed the patio door after leaving. That didn't happen. Let's start in reverse. Many believe Madeleine was last seen by the Smith family. How many believe he was an abductor?
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 12:47:41 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline colombosstogey

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #220 on: November 25, 2013, 12:34:52 PM »
What makes you say that, columbo? As far as we understand, Scotland Yard have still not finished trawling through the files and are still trying to clarify a lot of basic points.

Perhaps the Portuguese have something we don't know about?

Just a feeling something just odd about things going on now. Take no notice of me. Perhaps its the Efit that is bugging me. I cant believe the Yard had no knowledge that this wasnt an old sighting, and also all the leaking of tractor man (with NO real evidence), and then the new Portugese programme CMTV, talking about David Payne, and bathing children etc. I wonder really if there isnt something else going on......in the background.

We shall see.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #221 on: November 25, 2013, 12:48:05 PM »
Just a feeling something just odd about things going on now. Take no notice of me. Perhaps its the Efit that is bugging me. I cant believe the Yard had no knowledge that this wasnt an old sighting, and also all the leaking of tractor man (with NO real evidence), and then the new Portugese programme CMTV, talking about David Payne, and bathing children etc. I wonder really if there isnt something else going on......in the background.

We shall see.

Yes but there's nothing new of substance her, aside from tractor man which doesn't seem like a serious option.

What kind of thing going on in the background?

Offline slartibartfast

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #222 on: November 25, 2013, 01:22:22 PM »
Reading through this thread put some thoughts into my head.

If Madeleine died in the apartment by the hands of an intruder either accidentally or otherwise, then why would the intruder remove the body?  >@@(*&)
“Reasoning will never make a Man correct an ill Opinion, which by Reasoning he never acquired”.

Offline colombosstogey

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #223 on: November 25, 2013, 01:35:47 PM »
Re burlaries from 1 35



I too would like to see the evidence...not that it would shed any light really....has someone got any stats of burglars turned child abductors? No didnt thnk so

Yes I saw this when it came on SKY.

What I didnt hear though was him say this, I think about doing the reconstruction he was using a telephoto lens and It was a friend of mine who walked by at the top of the road, there is no way she could have recognised this person.... 0.50.

And about the robberies.

checked out with management no reports of additional activity in the time surrounding charity collection or with robbery.

6 burglaries couldnt find anything to back that one up.

The bit about the sighting is interesting as he said no one would have recognised anyone at that time. I also noticed in Carol Tranmers statment that she said it got dark around 6.30 which I hadnt realised before, so by 9.15 it would be pitch black.

Sorry edited because i am an idiot lol.
« Last Edit: November 25, 2013, 02:04:20 PM by colombosstogey »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #224 on: November 25, 2013, 01:55:42 PM »
Re burlaries from 1 35



I too would like to see the evidence...not that it would shed any light really....has someone got any stats of burglars turned child abductors? No didnt thnk so

The idea is not of a burglar turned abductor. I have never heard of this either.

But with regard to the spate of robberies on Madeleine's block,  Eamonn Holmes (no relation) mentions gangs of Roumanian and Albanian burglars active in the Algarve (don't know where he is getting his information from other than what he picked up from the time he says he has spent in the area) and speculates that such a gang may have been in operation in the complex. The idea is that the apartments were being cased to get a better idea of layout, in/out etc. for an abduction. Robbers in gangs could easily have connections with people involved in child trafficking and could have been working on an abduction in conjunction with one another. I personally don't see what is far fetched about this at all.

Paul Luckman doesn't give much credence to the claim that there were several burglaries in the complex around that time, saying the complex did not seem to know about it. Perhaps the complex wanted to keep quiet about it, or perhaps he got his facts wrong, or perhaps police did not investigate - probably all three. Scotland Yard however seem to have reason to believe there were burglaries however; they must be getting their information from somewhere. And these alleged burglaries were part of the recent appeal for information. SY must see something significant in getting more information on this.

Why wouldn't any light be shed? The burglars themselves are not going to come forward, but perhaps residents would have something to say. If it is true, as Eamonn Holmes says, that local police there don't take burglaries seriously and don't follow up on them, perhaps there is a lot of potential information here not recorded initially by police.