Author Topic: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?  (Read 414059 times)

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Offline a.baker

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #240 on: November 26, 2013, 03:08:39 AM »
Hi.I normally only read and there are some great posts on here.Very intelligent minds indeed! I have been reading with interest regarding the alleged open window and shutters and wondered if anybody had considered that Kate herself may have passed Madeleine out of the apartment to an 'accomplice' who may have agreed to help the parents by hiding the body (assuming Madeleine did indeed die after an accident)? But through the front door and not the open window,which I believe was staged by Kate to advance the abduction scenario.  May explain why Kate had cadaver scent on her clothes? Also,when Kate found Madeleine 'missing',instead of shouting across to the tapas group,she went over to the tapas bar. Was ahe stalling for time in order for the 'accomplice' to get away? Same reason for not alerting the police until 10.40pm? Was 'smithman' the 'accomplice' and this is why the McCanns didnt really want the e-fits of him in the public domain? Apologies if this scenario is rubbish but my brain will annoying tick away in the nightime hours when I cannot sleep!

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #241 on: November 26, 2013, 01:22:05 PM »
Hi, I believe Smithman was one of the Tapas 9 and that's why it was a very risky strategy. Eddie didn't alert anywhere at the front of the apartment only the back so I believe she left that way. The front door was hidden compared to that open window. An abductor would have used the front door. He/She wouldn't waste time with opening the window, squeezing past cots and beds in the dark or take the unnecessary risk of raising shutters which give out noise.
« Last Edit: November 26, 2013, 01:26:33 PM by pathfinder73 »
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #242 on: November 26, 2013, 06:13:57 PM »
I could hardly bring myself to finish reading your post Sherlock,  so horrific was the picture you painted

I know you are right when you point out that such people  do  exist in the world,  much as we might wish not to even think of it  ...  and the scenario you pen might   explain a most dreadful fate for the missing  little girl

In truth, I think I am  probably guilty of looking for the  'least'  horrific scenario

The possibility that the child wondered out of the apartment looking for mum and dad  and befell an unpredictable but fatal accident which her parents,   in blind panic and concern for their other children,  rashly  ( and whilst,  understandably,  not of sound mind )  decided to  'cover up' ,  seems so much  'bearable'  to imagine than the horror stories that are the alternatives

That's not fair on the parents of course,  and I understand that  ...  but,  unless there is hard evidence to support it,   I would rather not think that the  little girl met an unspeakable end to her short life at the hands of the kinds of monsters you describe

I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.

I would love to believe that paedophile  gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.

The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.

I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?

Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.

Offline pathfinder73

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #243 on: November 26, 2013, 06:42:52 PM »
It's not about blaming anyone. It's about finding out what happened from the evidence in the files and the discrepancies of the statements. You can't let emotion cloud your judgement. The timing of the Smithman sighting is significant and his unusual behaviour. The comings and goings from the tapas bar to the apartments were constant that night.
Smithman carrying a child in his arms checked his watch after passing the Smith family and the time was 10:03. Both are still unidentified 10 years later.

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #244 on: November 26, 2013, 08:50:14 PM »
If you are a child asleep and suddenly the noise of the shutter in your room awakens you and you see a silhoutte reaching in and operating the shutter strap, what would you do? Run into lounge and hide behind sofa?  Run to look for adults in their room? Run and hide in cupboard in adults bedroom? Run to lounge sliding door and onto balcony? Run out to street?

These possibilities seem to be not considered in sufficient depth, because all the theories, whether of abduction, or of cover-up, all have in common the remarkable insistence that the simple and IMO obvious equation "shutter opening = the noise which starts it all" is impossible?

Offline Rogerandout

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Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #245 on: November 26, 2013, 09:06:03 PM »
I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.

I would love to believe that paedophile  gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.

The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.

I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?

Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.

People who question Madeleine's age as of interest to paedophiles should note the lead singer of the Lostprophets has just pleaded guilty to attempting to rape an eleven month old baby.
I

Cariad

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Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #246 on: November 26, 2013, 09:07:30 PM »
I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.

I would love to believe that paedophile  gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.

The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.

I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?

Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so
.

I find it much more bearable to imagine parents disposing of their already deceased child than that child suffering possibly years of abuse at the hands of monsters.

I can understand how such a thing could happen too. Madeleine was not an only child. There were two more babies to consider. If something terrible had happened to Madeleine and her parents felt that the twins could end up in care because of it, well, wouldn't it be human nature to protect the children you still have?

I don't see that as abhorrent behaviour at all.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #247 on: November 27, 2013, 03:06:57 AM »
I find it much more bearable to imagine parents disposing of their already deceased child than that child suffering possibly years of abuse at the hands of monsters.

I can understand how such a thing could happen too. Madeleine was not an only child. There were two more babies to consider. If something terrible had happened to Madeleine and her parents felt that the twins could end up in care because of it, well, wouldn't it be human nature to protect the children you still have?

I don't see that as abhorrent behaviour at all.

I can see why it seems more bearable on the face of it, Cariad. No long-term suffering for Madeleine. Her suffering is something that we all find difficult and want to distance ourselves from. Sometimes I have to pinch myself and remember that we are all talking about a little girl here and not just looking at case notes.

But is disposal - and possibly death - at the hands of her parents really better than the alternatives, either in moral or behavioural terms, or in terms of the suffering Madeleine had to go through?

Parents disposing of their 'already deceased' child at the drop of a hat to protect their professional reputations? Dumping their own flesh and blood down a well near a holiday resort? No proper burial? Spending the next seven years further dishonouring their child (as if the above wasn't bad enough) by protesting to the world their innocence, mobilising governments and raising vast amounts of money to try to prove it?

I will focus on the matter of burial - though that is not the only problem here - because of its significance for human nature.  Giving a loved-one a proper burial is a fundamental human need and has been part of human civilisation since the earliest times. Even some higher animals such as elephants practice burial and observe collective mourning rituals of sorts.

Not to be concerned about giving one's own beloved child a burial goes so far against the grain of human nature that only the most disturbed of the disturbed would want to act that way. The idea that a person's professional reputation would over-ride something as powerful and fundamental as this is just not credible.

It is indeed distressing to consider the matter of paedophiles, but it would be a dark universe inhabited by parents who would do what the McCanns are alleged to have done in certain quarters. Harming or showing contempt for one's own flesh and blood shows a particular perversity of character that not even the paedophile demonstrates - unless he is harming his own child.

If it was 'human nature', as you say, to protect the twins, then this caring, protective human nature was in full force at the very same time that the McCanns were engaging in acts of mindboggling callousness and disregard as far as Madeleine was concerned. In fact it was care and concern for the twins that was the actual driving force behind the dumping of Madeleine, on that logic.

As for the twins ending up in care if the McCanns' negligence had been discovered, wouldn't that have been in the interest of the twins? Wouldn't that have been the right thing? Would we want to leave twins in the care of parents who lost a child through negligence and then callously dumped her?

There is absolutely no intelligibility to such actions whatsoever, either by logic or emotion, and this is why I find the contention that the McCanns are guilty of something sinister so very hard to swallow.

But of course, I could be wrong.....   

 
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 03:40:28 AM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #248 on: November 27, 2013, 03:27:56 AM »
Animal Mourning Rituals:

http://www.theartofbehavior.com/3-animals-that-have-funerals-to-grieve-for-the-dead/

There are many academic papers on this topic of course but this is a friendly version of the idea.
« Last Edit: November 27, 2013, 03:30:50 AM by Sherlock Holmes »

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #249 on: November 27, 2013, 03:32:06 AM »
@ Sherlock Holmes -

Thanks SH, I do enjoy reading your sage words in regard to this case and also the level of respect you show to your fellow members of this forum of either persuasion !

Thank you so much for the compliment, Pat; I very much appreciate it. I enjoy your posts greatly too and look forward to many more lively and productive discussions!

Offline Meadow

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #250 on: November 27, 2013, 04:56:03 AM »
Balances, of human behaviour who really knows,  just when you feel in tune with human rituals as an explanation, something comes along to knock you off course:

Amanda Hutton - starved four year old and left mummified corpse in bedroom:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24145299

Let us recall the psychology of grief:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

The Kubler-Ross model fits in well with how we cope with grief and the processes.

Now explain to me laughing and handful of balloons within days whilst coming out of church?  Leaving the twins whilst seeking help* or even putting them back in the creche the next day?

* I mean it was like being at the bottom of the garden - so why run back? leaving the twins in the same risk situation?   These are the behaviours that are illogical.

No one knows.  But the McCanns grief process is something books could be written about, since they appear more grief stricken now, than they did six+ years ago.

So I do agree that as humans we need closure in the event of death it is rituals that allow us to cope.  Far better to think Madeleine was abducted to order and living with a family who chose her, since they couldn't have a child of their own.  Do you really think such loving people we WANT to do that?

And back to the OP - why pass a child out of window which would draw attention, when  you could walk out of a door just a few feet away that was in a recess.  Why run through the streets of PDL - when the apartment was basically in the car park!

Only one question remains, how did the prospective intruder know that the window (glass stuff) would be unlocked and that no one was sleeping under the window?

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #251 on: November 27, 2013, 06:11:25 AM »
Balances, of human behaviour who really knows,  just when you feel in tune with human rituals as an explanation, something comes along to knock you off course:

Amanda Hutton - starved four year old and left mummified corpse in bedroom:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leeds-24145299

Let us recall the psychology of grief:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/K%C3%BCbler-Ross_model

The Kubler-Ross model fits in well with how we cope with grief and the processes.

Now explain to me laughing and handful of balloons within days whilst coming out of church?  Leaving the twins whilst seeking help* or even putting them back in the creche the next day?

* I mean it was like being at the bottom of the garden - so why run back? leaving the twins in the same risk situation?   These are the behaviours that are illogical.

No one knows.  But the McCanns grief process is something books could be written about, since they appear more grief stricken now, than they did six+ years ago.

So I do agree that as humans we need closure in the event of death it is rituals that allow us to cope.  Far better to think Madeleine was abducted to order and living with a family who chose her, since they couldn't have a child of their own.  Do you really think such loving people we WANT to do that?

And back to the OP - why pass a child out of window which would draw attention, when  you could walk out of a door just a few feet away that was in a recess.  Why run through the streets of PDL - when the apartment was basically in the car park!

Only one question remains, how did the prospective intruder know that the window (glass stuff) would be unlocked and that no one was sleeping under the window?

Hello, Meadow!

Amanda Hutton  - terrible case. Clearly an exceptionally sick woman. There is a great deal of evidence of her sickness in her home, however. In the  McCann case we are in dire need of hard evidence of anything.

Regarding the five stages of grief, the initial stage - denial - can last a long time. Denial can last for years. I went to a public talk given by holocaust  survivors recently at a museum here in New York. The survivors were being interviewed on video as part of the compilation of material for an exhibition. Two of the survivors described their experiences as 'not so bad', despite most of the other people who went through the same thing, some of whom were there at  the museum, telling a very different story. Many of these people never talked about their experiences and some of them, in order to protect themselves emotionally from the enormity of what happened, never beyond stage 1.

The balloon episode occurred extremely early on and I would have thought that the McCanns would have been very shell-shocked at that point; they would be in stage one here also.

And it is possible that they are indeed more grief-stricken now than they were before, having gone through all the things they have endured over the past few years. The stress and strain following a traumatic event (secondary trauma) can have an even greater a negative impact than the original trauma. What they have endured over the past few years - whether they are to blame for part of it or not - must have taken its toll on them. You can see it on their faces.

Agreed we need 'closure', and that is another source of strain for them. The grieving process has been stunted by the fact that they have no body or even an explanation as to what has happened.

Offline Rogerandout

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Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #252 on: November 27, 2013, 06:38:17 AM »
The stages of grief do not necessarily follow one after another. Each grief process is individual and people may skip stages, go through them in a different order, and even return to a previous supposedly completed phase.

Grief is not as simple as some people would have us believe.
I

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #253 on: November 27, 2013, 06:49:06 AM »
The stages of grief do not necessarily follow one after another. Each grief process is individual and people may skip stages, go through them in a different order, and even return to a previous supposedly completed phase.

Grief is not as simple as some people would have us believe.

And there are also other theories on grief. This is only one model.

AnneGuedes

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Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #254 on: November 28, 2013, 01:05:42 AM »
Many of these people never talked about their experiences and some of them, in order to protect themselves emotionally from the enormity of what happened, never beyond stage 1.
Those survivors came back from the camps almost 70 years ago. They kept silent for years because they knew nobody could understand what they had been through.