Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[AnneGuedes]

I find it much more bearable to imagine parents disposing of their already deceased child than that child suffering possibly years of abuse at the hands of monsters.

I can understand how such a thing could happen too. Madeleine was not an only child. There were two more babies to consider. If something terrible had happened to Madeleine and her parents felt that the twins could end up in care because of it, well, wouldn't it be human nature to protect the children you still have?

I don't see that as abhorrent behaviour at all.

I do agree with this and find it much more plausible than the ridiculous silent abduction from bed.
What if Madeleine went out and met her fate close by and was found by her father ? Wouldn't that logically put in high risk the rest of the family ? Wouldn't be better for the parents, and probably the twins, to stay together ? And wouldn't that justify bypassing funeral rituals ? Instead of doing those rituals for the child God killed to punish him, David created Salomon.

[AnneGuedes]

Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.

Accusing the McCanns is nobody's job, it's a matter for Justice. When we imagine that they did this or that, it is not an accusation, just an hypothesis. Do you think formulating hypotheses is abusive ?

[Sherlock Holmes]

Accusing the McCanns is nobody's job, it's a matter for Justice. When we imagine that they did this or that, it is not an accusation, just an hypothesis. Do you think formulating hypotheses is abusive ?

I agree, Anne, just a hypothesis.

But the hypotheses we formulate are indicative of our mindset and Weltanschauung.

To imagine that a person is going to throw their first born away and suggest that as a serious hypothesis, when there is no evidence for it and other viable options on the table, has been something that has always bothered me.

Wonderful to have you back, Anne, by the way.

[Rogerandout]

Accusing the McCanns is nobody's job, it's a matter for Justice. When we imagine that they did this or that, it is not an accusation, just an hypothesis. Do you think formulating hypotheses is abusive ?

It certainly can be!

[colombosstogey]

I have an enormous amount of respect for someone of your sharp and considerable mind who acknowledges that a lot of their thinking is based upon what is more palatable morally and emotionally. Perhaps this approach is even admirable.

I would love to believe that paedophile  gangs and the like do not exist but the reality is that there are unspeakable things going on in the world whose magnitude and moral enormity is barely imaginable to us.

The paedophile scenario has been proposed by the beginning from people on all 'sides' of this and sadly it is not far fetched.

I would like to question here if pointing the finger at the McCanns, alledging the callous disposal of their daughter's body at the very least, is saying anything better about human nature. A father disposing of his own child and a mother covering it all up for years? Is inflicting cruelty on one's own child somehow better or more acceptable to people than harming another?

Anyone accusing the McCanns is capable of just as dark thoughts as someone acknowledging social reality - maybe even more so.

Sadly I have become immune now to the horror of parents killing their children, it happens far too often.

Children being killed for all kind of reasons, even to get a bigger house........

A lot of mums sadly killing their children because of post natal depression one of the worse cases I think was in Australia.

Mums killing their children in cold blood, so they didnt have to share them with their new partners....

Its ALL the time now.....

I feel awful even saying it but I have turned cynical about every case.

I would NEVER have questioned the fact years ago, no way. I would have assumed the child was taken away and just would not believe a parent could harm the child or dispose of the body...but sadly over the years now every time I IMMEDIATELY jump to the parents FIRST. How sad am I? Or how sad is SOCIETY.....?

The statistics are STACKED against the parents or friends. Its horrible isnt it....but it seems to be getting worse.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/inform/research/statistics/child_homicide_statistics_wda48747.html

When a childs life is taken by a parent say the mother, how do we know that the husband would not want to protect their partner and do anything possible to make sure that their loved one is protected, even doing something so UNSPEAKABLE, as removing their beloved child and disposing of the body....

People do these things it HAPPENS.

ITS not necessarily what I believe in to be honest, I am still not sure in my mind the child was harmed by her parents not at all, but sadly I think ANYONE is capable of self preservation its an instinc inherrant in all human beings.

I dont for one minute think the parents would have covered up an accidental death no way, children have accidents ALL THE TIME, and sadly they die because of them.

No I dont see that the parents would do that no way...

To be honest I would rather a child died of an accident then have been taken by a pedophile now that thought doesnt bear thinking about.

Non of the scenarios bode well for the child do they.

Its just so sad for Maddy no matter what we think.   

[Luz]

I have just watched the entire Dispatches programme which Redblossom linked to another thread

Five experts  (  and they really  are experts )  analysed the three possible theories  :

That Madeleine woke and wandered

That she was abducted

That her parents were involved in her disappearance

What struck me was that the open window/shutter was only mentioned in relation to the third option  ( involvement of the parents  ) .  It was suggested that they were opened from the inside as a way of  'staging'  a crime

The experts offered no explanation for the open window/shutter in either of the two remaining theories  (  woke and wandered/ abduction )   because it played no part in the hypothesis they formulated in both scnarios

I am back to being convinced that there is no rational explanation for the open shutters  other  than that they were opened as part of the  staging of  a crime

I know  other explanations have been sought   ...  but that's the thing  ...  other explanations have to be 'imagined'

There is nothing about the window/shutters being opened from the inside that immediately  screams abduction   ...  on the contrary,  it is something that somehow has to be  'fitted in'  with abduction theory

I am in agreement with the experts on this matter

Knowing the mentioned window and having tried recently to make several attempts to use it as an escape or entry with several people, in a similar window, it was impossible to be achieved without leaving traits and without the help of another person. Not to mention that opening it would have alerted the whole neighborhood because it would have rattled too loudly in a quite night. Carrying a bundle over such window was impossible without leaving fibers and traits of some other sort.

In my opinion you are right to agree with the experts.

[colombosstogey]

Knowing the mentioned window and having tried recently to make several attempts to use it as an escape or entry with several people, in a similar window, it was impossible to be achieved without leaving traits and without the help of another person. Not to mention that opening it would have alerted the whole neighborhood because it would have rattled too loudly in a quite night. Carrying a bundle over such window was impossible without leaving fibers and traits of some other sort.

In my opinion you are right to agree with the experts.

Totally agree, thats why they are EXPERTS.

[Luz]

It certainly can be!

That is ridiculous. Everyone is free to formulate hypothesis.

Have you ever heard about freedom of thought and expression?!

[Rogerandout]

That is ridiculous. Everyone is free to formulate hypothesis.

Have you ever heard about freedom of thought and expression?!

You have the right to think what you want. Once you share it with a third party, it may be abuse and actionable in law.

[Luz]

Grief is an individual process, I give you that.

But its stages are well known. What changes is the time periods for each of them. Commonly it is used the 5 stages model:

Denial
Rageuilt
Negotiation
Depression
Acceptance

In my opinion the McCann are not typical subjects and are not following any linear grief process. Their involvement in the process may have stuck them in the first 2 stages with some small attempts in the third. But they are mainly in denial and rage, which will inevitably lead one or both to depression, once and again... But they are floating still. They don't know how to negotiate and that makes their guilt feelings even more powerful.

Depression implies guilty feelings, and these two are not ready to deal with it. So far they have been deflating it and when it comes back it will be massive.

[Redblossom]

That is ridiculous. Everyone is free to formulate hypothesis.

Have you ever heard about freedom of thought and expression?!

Some want to destroy it...even BAN books, something our grandfathers fought against,and so many paying with their lives for the freedom, despicable at best.......

[Rogerandout]

Some want to destroy it...even BAN books, something our grandfathers fought against,and so many paying with their lives for the freedom, despicable at best.......

Do you agree with the current bans on other books because of libel or public safety, or should they be freely available?

I suspect that your feelings about this only apply to books that you find acceptable but would not apply to other books that do conflict with your beliefs.

[Rogerandout]

Grief is an individual process, I give you that.

But its stages are well known. What changes is the time periods for each of them. Commonly it is used the 5 stages model:

Denial
Rageuilt
Negotiation
Depression
Acceptance

In my opinion the McCann are not typical subjects and are not following any linear grief process. Their involvement in the process may have stuck them in the first 2 stages with some small attempts in the third. But they are mainly in denial and rage, which will inevitably lead one or both to depression, once and again... But they are floating still. They don't know how to negotiate and that makes their guilt feelings even more powerful.

Depression implies guilty feelings, and these two are not ready to deal with it. So far they have been deflating it and when it comes back it will be massive.

Depression does not imply guilty feelings.

[Redblossom]

In my country Freedom of Expression (not just thought) is a Consecrated Right in our Constitution, the basis of our Legal System and the basis of our culture, article 37º (almost like America's First Amendment)

and so it should be! Too many peoples were silenced and gagged in the evil era of the thirties and their legacy continuing into the late 60s in many quarters....sadly to this day still in some places....a legacy that should be trampled on very heavily indeed! And never allowed to rear its uglyhead again......

[Luz]

Depression does not imply guilty feelings.

There are many types of depression, I was addressing the one originated by external factors. If reactive, the depression is always accompanied or declenched by guilty feelings.