Author Topic: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?  (Read 414072 times)

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Offline Carana

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #270 on: November 28, 2013, 01:27:19 PM »
Has anyone watched the "Verdade" video? Gonzalo Amaral and Moita Flores are filmed examining the real actual window and shutter, and they claim, based on fingerprint evidence, conclusively that it was KM who opened the window. What do you think about this? Carefully checking all the sources in that video, are GA and MF correct?

I have nothing in the forensic report to suggest that the fingerprints indicated an opening position. There is a thread about that on here somewhere.

Offline Sherlock Holmes

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #271 on: November 28, 2013, 04:13:52 PM »
Sadly I have become immune now to the horror of parents killing their children, it happens far too often.

Children being killed for all kind of reasons, even to get a bigger house........

A lot of mums sadly killing their children because of post natal depression one of the worse cases I think was in Australia.

Mums killing their children in cold blood, so they didnt have to share them with their new partners....

Its ALL the time now.....

I feel awful even saying it but I have turned cynical about every case.

I would NEVER have questioned the fact years ago, no way. I would have assumed the child was taken away and just would not believe a parent could harm the child or dispose of the body...but sadly over the years now every time I IMMEDIATELY jump to the parents FIRST. How sad am I? Or how sad is SOCIETY.....?

The statistics are STACKED against the parents or friends. Its horrible isnt it....but it seems to be getting worse.

http://www.nspcc.org.uk/inform/research/statistics/child_homicide_statistics_wda48747.html

When a childs life is taken by a parent say the mother, how do we know that the husband would not want to protect their partner and do anything possible to make sure that their loved one is protected, even doing something so UNSPEAKABLE, as removing their beloved child and disposing of the body....

People do these things it HAPPENS.

ITS not necessarily what I believe in to be honest, I am still not sure in my mind the child was harmed by her parents not at all, but sadly I think ANYONE is capable of self preservation its an instinc inherrant in all human beings.

I dont for one minute think the parents would have covered up an accidental death no way, children have accidents ALL THE TIME, and sadly they die because of them.

No I dont see that the parents would do that no way...

To be honest I would rather a child died of an accident then have been taken by a pedophile now that thought doesnt bear thinking about.

Non of the scenarios bode well for the child do they.

Its just so sad for Maddy no matter what we think.   8(8-))

Columbo, I readily understand that sadly there are many cases of parents killing and abusing their own children.

In fact I was reading just the other day a series of legal documents from the eighteenth century relating to a small village in Scandinavia where my ancestors are from, which contained court records of punishable offences committed in that area. The high number, statistically, of dreadful things that happened to children at the hands of their relatives was shocking. The instance of post natal depression was apparently extremely high, as maternal infanticide was a regular occurrence. Gladly society is beginning to understand this condition better. Other crimes involving children and young people were also prevalent but I won't go into them now as things could get a bit gory.

My point was that in the Madeleine case there is still no evidence for the McCanns having done anything sinister such as harming their child or concealing her body; in fact the 'evidence' we do have - admittedly it is scant - points to it being exceptionally difficult if not impossible for them to have done something of the kind. The question is why in the absence of evidence, these accusations are made.

People will quote statistics but as we have discussed again and again, we do not convict by statistics. If that were so, we wouldn't need a police force or a legal system.

Statistics do indeed point to parental culpability, and in the light of that, the McCanns ought to have been investigated more fully at the START of the investigation in Portugal.

Instead, we have a case where attention was turned to the McCanns after failure to find explanations in other areas,  failure due in part to flawed and incompetent investigating (not looking at the CCTV cameras; not sealing off the crime scene; not sealing off the Spanish border; contamination in forensic procedures, etc etc.).

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.
 

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #272 on: November 28, 2013, 04:26:19 PM »
Does the footage in the Verdade video, of an expert examining the window, rule out an intruder and prove that KM opened the window?


Offline Luz

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #273 on: November 28, 2013, 04:44:58 PM »
Columbo, I readily understand that sadly there are many cases of parents killing and abusing their own children.

In fact I was reading just the other day a series of legal documents from the eighteenth century relating to a small village in Scandinavia where my ancestors are from, which contained court records of punishable offences committed in that area. The high number, statistically, of dreadful things that happened to children at the hands of their relatives was shocking. The instance of post natal depression was apparently extremely high, as maternal infanticide was a regular occurrence. Gladly society is beginning to understand this condition better. Other crimes involving children and young people were also prevalent but I won't go into them now as things could get a bit gory.

My point was that in the Madeleine case there is still no evidence for the McCanns having done anything sinister such as harming their child or concealing her body; in fact the 'evidence' we do have - admittedly it is scant - points to it being exceptionally difficult if not impossible for them to have done something of the kind. The question is why in the absence of evidence, these accusations are made.

People will quote statistics but as we have discussed again and again, we do not convict by statistics. If that were so, we wouldn't need a police force or a legal system.

Statistics do indeed point to parental culpability, and in the light of that, the McCanns ought to have been investigated more fully at the START of the investigation in Portugal.

Instead, we have a case where attention was turned to the McCanns after failure to find explanations in other areas,  failure due in part to flawed and incompetent investigating (not looking at the CCTV cameras; not sealing off the crime scene; not sealing off the Spanish border; contamination in forensic procedures, etc etc.).

The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing.


You've lost the whole scenario. Go back and look again.

Do you think this is much different from those men and women that killed their children in your native country?! It was a matter of survival, wasn't it?

In those times in your country (as in mine and many european countries) it was a question of food, nowadays there are other reasons.

The police intervention was as correct as anyone could expect in any developed country, it was even more forceful than how it happens in Britain when you have to expect for at least 24 hours to seen anything get going.

After 5 months the only evidence pointed to the parents involvement. They declined to cooperate to be exonerated, and as for the portuguese investigation, they are still suspects.

I hope they will be fully investigated and exonerated, because there is no sadder situation than be whatever/dismissed by your own parents.

As I stated before there is no way a stranger or strangers could have used the windows to extract a 3 year old.
« Last Edit: November 28, 2013, 04:48:46 PM by Luz »

Offline Carana

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #274 on: November 28, 2013, 05:11:53 PM »
Does the footage in the Verdade video, of an expert examining the window, rule out an intruder and prove that KM opened the window?

What has excluded Kate's version that she simply touched the frame of the open window to look out of it?

Wouldn't excluding potential innocent explanations be part of modern police investigations?

icabodcrane

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #275 on: November 28, 2013, 06:17:20 PM »
What has excluded Kate's version that she simply touched the frame of the open window to look out of it?

Wouldn't excluding potential innocent explanations be part of modern police investigations?

In the Dispatches programme,  that I referred to in the op,  the experts who studied the case were careful to point out  that any fingerprints on the window/shutter  that belonged to the occupants of the apartment could be there innocently

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #276 on: November 28, 2013, 06:20:10 PM »
Not is, was, for a very long time, metodo 3, marcos etc.....and all their dirty dealings, makes you sick
It's strange because that man is so discreet and shy and reserved that you don't notice him.

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #277 on: November 28, 2013, 06:29:34 PM »

Wouldn't excluding potential innocent explanations be part of modern police investigations?
Do you doubt it, Carana ? Have you seen pin pointed everywhere the fingerprints on the window frame ?

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #278 on: November 28, 2013, 06:35:29 PM »
in fact the 'evidence' we do have - admittedly it is scant - points to it being exceptionally difficult if not impossible for them to have done something of the kind. The question is why in the absence of evidence, these accusations are made.

Please be more specific. What absence of evidence ? Wasn't a child carrier seen by the Smith family ? Isn't it possible that the child was dead ?

Offline Mr Gray

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #279 on: November 28, 2013, 06:44:34 PM »

You've lost the whole scenario. Go back and look again.

Do you think this is much different from those men and women that killed their children in your native country?! It was a matter of survival, wasn't it?

In those times in your country (as in mine and many european countries) it was a question of food, nowadays there are other reasons.

The police intervention was as correct as anyone could expect in any developed country, it was even more forceful than how it happens in Britain when you have to expect for at least 24 hours to seen anything get going.

After 5 months the only evidence pointed to the parents involvement. They declined to cooperate to be exonerated, and as for the portuguese investigation, they are still suspects.

I hope they will be fully investigated and exonerated, because there is no sadder situation than be whatever/dismissed by your own parents.

As I stated before there is no way a stranger or strangers could have used the windows to extract a 3 year old.

 I would say that for the vast majority of people the McCanns have been cleared

Offline Wonderfulspam

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #280 on: November 29, 2013, 12:25:15 AM »
There is an absence of evidence for the McCanns having harmed or disposed of their child.

Let's see what SY say about Smithman. I understand there is another programme in the offing. As things stand at the moment, we have no idea who Smithman was and whether or not he was connected with the disappearance.


'we have no idea who Smithman was'

Sherlock by name only.
I stand with Putin. Glory to Mother Putin.

Offline pegasus

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #281 on: November 29, 2013, 12:52:29 AM »
What has excluded Kate's version that she simply touched the frame of the open window to look out of it?

Wouldn't excluding potential innocent explanations be part of modern police investigations?
.I believe her account, that she found the window open and only leaned on the window when she looked out, is true.
IMO the expert examining the window (see Verdade video) is mistaken in deducing that she opened the window.

Offline Benice

Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #282 on: November 29, 2013, 01:19:02 AM »
There's as well no evidence that Madeleine wasn't harmed and disposed of by her parents in a swift and definitive way.
No evidence at all ?
There's evidence the shutters and window weren't used by an intruder or outruder.
So why did the parents pretend they were open ? I find that more challenging than imagining Smithman was a zombie.
I'm more pragmatic than you, Sherlock.
It's within the Met's (seconded by 6 inspectors of Faro) abilities to establish the identity of all 3/4 little girl matching Smithman's child. At this low season time, local ones are not so many and go to the kindergarten.

What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?

IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s)  would open them.

Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth.    Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?












The notion that innocence prevails over guilt – when there is no evidence to the contrary – is what separates civilization from barbarism.    Unfortunately, there are remains of barbarism among us.    Until very recently, it headed the PJ in Portimão. I hope he was the last one.
                                               Henrique Monteiro, chief editor, Expresso, Portugal

AnneGuedes

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #283 on: November 29, 2013, 01:45:33 AM »
What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?

IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s)  would open them.

Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth.    Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?
I quoted everything this time !
I'm logical, Benice, I reckon you never opened this kind of shutters, it's boring, noisy and takes a certain time. So why doing it for no purpose ? Since nobody noticed them, it was enough to say they found them open and closed them because of the cold on the twins.
SY are in charge of finding an abductor, can't you understand that ?


Lyall

  • Guest
Re: Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?
« Reply #284 on: November 29, 2013, 01:48:54 AM »
What proof do you have that the parents 'pretended' the window and shutters were open?

IMO it is more accurate to say there is no proof of WHY the window and shutters were opened - but there are various credible reasons as to why an abductor(s)  would open them.

Whereas it is your prerogative to believe the McCanns lied about the windows - SY obviously believe they told the truth.    Don't you ever wonder why their conclusions regarding the veracity of the McCanns are the opposite of yours?

You answered your own question, Benice. If we can't prove the window was never opened by an outsider, neither can the police.