Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[sadie]

Another hypothetical example. After their child is asleep some adults in UK turn out most of the lights and go to a nearby house for a coffee. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety by a thief disturbed before climbing in?

Have you ever been to the UK pegasus?  How many houses, apartments have you come across with shutters?

Apart from decorative ones that are now terribly dated and a few mansions, I have never come across any house that has shutters .... and I have been around for 76 years.

How many Brits do you know who drink coffee, especially in the evening?

And how many Brits do you know who go round to their neighbours houses to drink coffee, or anything , leaving their child in a locked house with dimmed lights?


Wrong, wrong, wrong

Sorry.  Nil out of three.  Good try tho.

[sadie]

Progress in what aim? Can you remind me why you are going down this road with the open window?  What material difference does it make given that we are fairly certain that it was not a point of entry?

Exactly Sherlock.  We are fairly certain that it was neither a point of entry nor exit for the lifter.

If s/he went out of the front door, then makes sense that Madeleine did too.

It also makes sense that the most likely way in was the recessed, out of sight front door .... and probably using a key

Only my opinions, of course, but based on logic.

[pegasus]

Progress in what aim? Can you remind me why you are going down this road with the open window?  What material difference does it make given that we are fairly certain that it was not a point of entry?

The shutter being opened from outside explains the reason for waking, isn't that important?

[Sherlock Holmes]

The shutter being opened from outside explains the reason for waking, isn't that important?

Oh, I see. But we don't know that she woke.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Exactly Sherlock.  We are fairly certain that it was neither a point of entry nor exit for the lifter.

If s/he went out of the front door, then makes sense that Madeleine did too.

It also makes sense that the most likely way in was the recessed, out of sight front door .... and probably using a key

Only my opinions, of course, but based on logic.

More than opinion and logic: logic corroborated with forensics and known facts.

The window was a highly unlikely point of entry or exit for anyone - forensic evidence.

The patio door, curtains, stair gate were all closed (unlikely an abductor would go to the trouble of closing all these behind him on his way out with a child in his arms); the south side of the apartment was in view of the tapas bar area where not only Madeleine's parents but many more tourists and potential witnesses were milling - strong circumstancial evidence.

All in all most likely that the front door was used.

[pegasus]

Have you ever been to the UK pegasus?  How many houses, apartments have you come across with shutters?
Apart from decorative ones that are now terribly dated and a few mansions, I have never come across any house that has shutters .... and I have been around for 76 years.
How many Brits do you know who drink coffee, especially in the evening?
And how many Brits do you know who go round to their neighbours houses to drink coffee, or anything , leaving their child in a locked house with dimmed lights?
Wrong, wrong, wrong
Sorry.  Nil out of three.  Good try tho.

Ok I have improved the hypothetical scenario here:-
After their child is asleep some adult tourists visiting Spain  turn out most of the lights of their rented apartment and go briefly to a nearby cafe for a beverage. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety?

[sadie]

The shutter being opened from outside explains the reason for waking, isn't that important?

Are you on Professional Investigator Heriberto Janosches theory, Pegasus?  Where the abductor opened the shutters, slid open the window ... and Madeleine had walked across to the window having been wakened by the shutter opening.

The abductor leaned in and picked Madeleine up under her arms and lifted her out through the open window.



Do we know how open the shutters were?  And how open the window was?  Any information on that abywhere, that anyone knows about?

Nobody heard the shutters being opened.  I wonder just how loud they were?  We cant trust videos, because the sound level can be adjusted.

The window was closed and I wonder if an opening shutter that seemingly was not too loud if no-one heard it, would awaken Madeleine

[sadie]

Ok I have improved the hypothetical scenario here:-
After their child is asleep some adult tourists visiting Spain  turn out most of the lights of their rented apartment and go briefly to a nearby cafe for a beverage. When they return, the child bedroom window and shutters are open, but no-one has entered, nothing is missing, the child is ok and hiding in another room. Is that hypothetical scene not easy to solve in its entirety?

Much better Pegasus, but personally I dont know of anyone who would leave the hotel / apartment premises for a drink in such circumstances.

Has this actually happened?

Off to bed now

Nigh night

[stephen25000]

Are you on Professional Investigator Heriberto Janosches theory, Pegasus?  Where the abductor opened the shutters, slid open the window ... and Madeleine had walked across to the window having been wakened by the shutter opening.

The abductor leaned in and picked Madeleine up under her arms and lifted her out through the open window.



Do we know how open the shutters were?  And how open the window was?  Any information on that abywhere, that anyone knows about?

Nobody heard the shutters being opened.  I wonder just how loud they were?  We cant trust videos, because the sound level can be adjusted.

The window was closed and I wonder if an opening shutter that seemingly was not too loud if no-one heard it, would awaken Madeleine

'Professional Investigator Heriberto Janosches'


Another self professed expert ?

Is he an expert in faked abductions as well ?   

[AnneGuedes]

More than opinion and logic: logic corroborated with forensics and known facts.

The window was a highly unlikely point of entry or exit for anyone - forensic evidence.

The patio door, curtains, stair gate were all closed (unlikely an abductor would go to the trouble of closing all these behind him on his way out with a child in his arms); the south side of the apartment was in view of the tapas bar area where not only Madeleine's parents but many more tourists and potential witnesses were milling - strong circumstancial evidence.

All in all most likely that the front door was used.

Where have you seen that the patio door, the curtains and the stair gate were closed ?

Nobody but the group was in the restaurant after the Carpenter left. Many witnesses (like Mrs Webster, Mrs Oldfield and waiters) said it was not possible to see more than the dark top part of the sliding door and even so behind a plastic screen with reflecting lights.

[Mr Gray]

Surely the simple scenario is that the abductor climbed in through the window and opened the door from the inside in order for him to leave

[Benice]

Surely the simple scenario is that the abductor climbed in through the window and opened the door from the inside in order for him to leave

I agree that is a possibility Davel.  The window is certainly big enough for an adult to climb through.   

Although personally I also think the fact that it was only through that bedroom window that a clear view of the path and the carpark could be seen is a credible reason for why it may have been opened from the inside.     The abductor would not want to leave through the front door having no idea at all whether anyone was in close proximity - and that possibility could not be ascertained from the recessed front door.

An open window would also be the means of a sharp exit and to avoid confrontation if someone was heard entering through the patio doors.



 

[Sherlock Holmes]

Where have you seen that the patio door, the curtains and the stair gate were closed ?

Nobody but the group was in the restaurant after the Carpenter left. Many witnesses (like Mrs Webster, Mrs Oldfield and waiters) said it was not possible to see more than the dark top part of the sliding door and even so behind a plastic screen with reflecting lights.

I appreciate there wasn't a clear view of the apartment from the Tapas area.  The question is whether someone would risk entering / leaving via the patio doors because and take the risk, however small, of being seen. They would feel exposed using that entrance, regardless of the actual visibility.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Surely the simple scenario is that the abductor climbed in through the window and opened the door from the inside in order for him to leave

So why no forensic evidence on the window or sill?

[AnneGuedes]

any abductor/burglar would realise the front door exit was better even if the need to brandish a weapon arose. IMO a holiday maker would not wish to confront a burglar brandishing a weapon.

The scoop of the weapon made me laugh. Thank you !
A simple but good quality screw driver would do.