Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[John]

IMO there are three credible reasons for opening the window and shutters.

1. To give a swift 'escape' route if they were disturbed - which did not involve going back into the rest of the apartment and possibly being confronted face to face with someone.

2. As the only way of checking to see whether the coast was clear before leaving via the recessed front door carrying a child - which in itself would attract attention from anyone who unknown to them may have come into the car park whilst the intruder was inside 5A.      Particular if they had been watching the movements of the group and knew that people would definitely be walking across that carpark several times during the evening.

3. To deflect attention away from the fact that they had a key.

You forgot one Benice.

4. To deflect attention from the fact that the door was opened from the inside.

[pathfinder73]

If you wanted to get caught maybe? Think I'll leave some evidence behind while I'm at it? Suicidal anyway you look at it when the door was recessed - the open window would be seen by anybody in that car park  8-)(--) It wouldn't happen. Smithman was not professional carrying the child away on foot.

[John]

If you wanted to get caught maybe? Think I'll leave some evidence behind while I'm at it? Suicidal anyway you look at it when the door was recessed - the open window would be seen by anybody in that car park  8-)(--) It wouldn't happen. Smithman was not professional carrying the child away on foot.

I'm pretty sure the open window and shutter was a ruse whatever scenario one chooses to believe.  If an abductor had climbed in the window after managing to get the shutter up a bit he would have closed it behind him.  Leaving the shutter up was an invitation to be caught imo.

[pathfinder73]

KM says so in her book. 

Quote

On our arrival we had lowered the blind-style shutters on the outside of the windows, which were controlled from the inside, and closed the curtains.  We left them that way all week.
End quote

Are you saying that it wasn't possible for KM to have touched the window while they were doing that? 

If Kate was the only one who had touched the window  -  then obviously you wouldn't expect to find GM's fingerprints there would you.

That's very strange. Seems like the shutters and window were closed in the bedroom from when they arrived. So Kate is contradicting Jane's testimony in her book which was written after the fact. They didn't need to touch them at all! That room was kept dark all week  >@@(*&)

JT's Rog:

Reply    “We never opened those shutters at all the whole time we were there because it was great because it made the room really dark so it was good for them sleeping.”
4078    “Mm.”
Reply    “And we didn’t use that room in the day so I don’t think we ever, well I certainly never even, never opened them or shut them.”
4078    “And the shutters were always down in their room?”
Reply    “No I don’t think we touched the shutters the whole time we were there.”

[pegasus]

The print under the ruler in the photo at exactly 46:30 (and in closeup at exactly 46:37) in the bedroom window part of the video about KM opening the window?

As evidence that KM opened the window, the video uses that photo as if it were: (1) a finger print, (2) of KM, (3) on a window, (4) in the north bedroom.

All 4 points are incorrect IMO.

This can be established IMO by locating this particular 4th May photo in the actual case files

[sadie]

You forgot one Benice.

4. To deflect attention from the fact that the door was opened from the inside.

Opened from the inside?  Where did you get that from, John?

[pegasus]

The answer to " Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?" is, of course he/she could. 
We have watched numerous videos demonstrating the mechanics of this type of shutter being opened and closed from inside and outside apartments.

Yes a very good video has been posted by Heriberto of how to open the window and shutter from outside.
And If anyone still thinks the window auto-locks when you close it, please ask and I will post a video of the actual window (not some random other window) proving with demonsrartion by an expert that it certainly does not auto-lock.

It has been generally agreed the noise made would be ignored because it would be such a normal thing to hear.  e shutter being raised was part of that last minute upset to the plan.

Generally agreed maybe but certainly not by me.
Quite the opposite,
IMO if someone was asleep in that room then it is likely the shutter noise would have woken them.
Imagine if you are asleep in a room and someone from outside opens first the window and then the shutter which makes a loud noise, Isn't there a possibility this might wake you?

[pegasus]

Re: the digit print in the video which supposedly "proves" that KM opened the window herself, and is supposedly lying that she found it already open (for link to video and exact times within video see a previous post):.
 Here is a clue as to what the supposed "finger" print really is  ... 

[sadie]

Yes a very good video has been posted by Heriberto of how to open the window and shutter from outside.
And If anyone still thinks the window auto-locks when you close it, please ask and I will post a video of the actual window (not some random other window) proving with demonsrartion by an expert that it certainly does not auto-lock.
Generally agreed maybe but certainly not by me.
Quite the opposite,
IMO if someone was asleep in that room then it is likely the shutter noise would have woken them.
Imagine if you are asleep in a room and someone from outside opens first the window and then the shutter which makes a loud noise, Isn't there a possibility this might wake you?

But if the window were closed and someone either on the outside, or inside, opened the shutter, the noise within the room would be minimal.  A deeply asleep child would be unlikely to stir.  The window would slide open pretty nioselessly afterwards.

Does anyone know if the shutter was pulled up, or pushed up?   I think I read that the shutter was at an angle.  If that were the case it is likely it was pushed up.   Anyone know for sure?

I wonder if it was wedged open?

[peter claridge]

But if the window were closed and someone either on the outside, or inside, opened the shutter, the noise within the room would be minimal.  A deeply asleep child would be unlikely to stir.  The window would slide open pretty nioselessly afterwards.

Does anyone know if the shutter was pulled up, or pushed up?   I think I read that the shutter was at an angle.  If that were the case it is likely it was pushed up.   Anyone know for sure?

I wonder if it was wedged open?

Imagine standing outside said shutter/window "just listening"...

[icabodcrane]

But if the window were closed and someone either on the outside, or inside, opened the shutter, the noise within the room would be minimal.  A deeply asleep child would be unlikely to stir.  The window would slide open pretty nioselessly afterwards.

Does anyone know if the shutter was pulled up, or pushed up?   I think I read that the shutter was at an angle.  If that were the case it is likely it was pushed up.   Anyone know for sure?

I wonder if it was wedged open?

A couple of days ago you were questioning the height to which the shutters had been open

I  gave you a quote from Kate's book in which she says the shutters had been  "fully raised up"  ... and you accepted it   

Now you are back to questioning again

...  don't you trust Kate's word   ? 

[pegasus]

IMO that print which (in the bedroom window part of the video I linked to above) is attributed to the bedroom window and to KM and used to demonstrate that she opened the window, is actually from the lounge patio door and its a ring finger of left hand but is not KM's at all IMO.

[Alfred R Jones]

How about he opened the shutter first (slowly to avoid making too much noise), entered the apartment using a key and, carrying a mobile which emitted sufficient light in the bedroom (whch was already a little lighter thanks to the open shutter) , the child was located, phone put back in pocket, chid picked up and removed via the point of entry never to be seen again?  No Octopi required!

[Martina]

How about he opened the shutter first (slowly to avoid making too much noise), entered the apartment using a key and, carrying a mobile which emitted sufficient light in the bedroom (whch was already a little lighter thanks to the open shutter)

That might be difficult. Dianne Webster 11th May:

However, she wants to stress that immediately afterwards, she went outside the apartment in order to ascertain whether she would be able to raise the shutters by hand from the outside, and found it was impossible for her.

So it needed a bit of force, as these shutters are designed to be opened from the apartment. There was no signs of any force used on shutters. One more thing, opening the shutters in a forcible way makes a lot of noise. All the kids in the bedroom would wake up.

[faithlilly]

How about he opened the shutter first (slowly to avoid making too much noise), entered the apartment using a key and, carrying a mobile which emitted sufficient light in the bedroom (whch was already a little lighter thanks to the open shutter) , the child was located, phone put back in pocket, chid picked up and removed via the point of entry never to be seen again?  No Octopi required!

So as the door was open wider when Gerry arrived for his 9.05 check the burglar ( if that is the theory we are going with now ) must have been in the apartment already so why didn't Gerry see the open shutter and when exactly did the intruder wake Madeleine in order for her cause enough fuss to somehow be killed, because she certainly wasn't awake or distressed when her father saw her ?