Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[G-Unit]

You are sitting in your holiday apartment in the lounge one evening reading your book by table lamp and someone knocks gently at the front door what would you do? It's not a trick question.

Answer the door.

[G-Unit]

its agood idea if  you believe the child was taken

Quite. First you have to establish that the child was actually abducted then you theorise about how it was accomplished.

[Mr Gray]

Quite. First you have to establish that the child was actually abducted then you theorise about how it was accomplished.

once the parents have been ruled out...they are not suspects....abduction is far and away the most logical reason for maddie's disappearance. SY seem to agree with that.

Redwood's statement is hard evidence that the McCanns have been ruled out

[sadie]

But Pegasus

You keep ignoring the obvious way in and out.

Via the Front door with a key and an accomplis.

Dont forget, the front dooir light was broken - hanging I think
The front door was completely hidden out of sight, no-one passed by and ... it was in utter blackness.

Key in the lock. turn it, push door open using the key.
On exit, pull the front door closed using the key again

NO FINGERPRINTS.

I wonder how long the front door light had been broken?

Was it sabotaged in advance?

Pitch black in the front door alcove without a light.  And nobody passed by.  Perfect place for a totally hidden entrance and exit.

As these nasty people like to say "Hidden in plain sight".   Hidden because nobody could see there.

[Benice]

Quite. First you have to establish that the child was actually abducted then you theorise about how it was accomplished.

The fact that Madeleine had disappeared and Kate's statement of how she found the shutters and windows open is evidence of abduction.

If you don't accept evidence from family members, then why was Sarah Payne immediately considered to have been abducted.   She disappeared and only a family member claimed to have seen anything.

The same goes for Ben Needham - he disappeared and we only have his family's word for what happened.

But in your eyes - as there was no independent witness evidence of abduction - it was not possible to be established.       That is not how the police work IMO.

Establishing the credibility of witnesses is vital in cases where no physical evidence is found - and IMO that is what the police did in all the above cases -  including the McCann case.   

It's clear to me that the police have fully satisfied themselves that both Kerry Needham and her family - and the McCanns -  are all credible witnesses.      This has enabled them to rule them out as suspects and it follows therefore that removal by a stranger is the only other viablle alternative.        And they are the experts. 

If you want to ignore the experts  - that's up to you.


 

[stephen25000]

The fact that Madeleine had disappeared and Kate's statement of how she found the shutters and windows open is evidence of abduction.

If you don't accept evidence from family members, then why was Sarah Payne immediately considered to have been abducted.   She disappeared and only a family member claimed to have seen anything.

The same goes for Ben Needham - he disappeared and we only have his family's word for what happened.

But in your eyes - as there was no independent witness evidence of abduction - it was not possible to be established.       That is not how the police work IMO.

Establishing the credibility of witnesses is vital in cases where no physical evidence is found - and IMO that is what the police did in all the above cases -  including the McCann case.   

It's clear to me that the police have fully satisfied themselves that both Kerry Needham and her family - and the McCanns -  are all credible witnesses.      This has enabled them to rule them out as suspects and it follows therefore that removal by a stranger is the only other viablle alternative.        And they are the experts. 

If you want to ignore the experts  - that's up to you.

No independent verification that the window or shutters had been moved before 10 pm.

Keep to the facts please.

Crime unknown.

[Mr Gray]

No independent verification that the window or shutters had been moved before 10 pm.

Keep to the facts please.

Crime unknown.

parents named not suspects by SY....FACT

[stephen25000]

parents named not suspects by SY....FACT

SY have found nothing.

FACT.

[pathfinder73]

The fact that Madeleine had disappeared and Kate's statement of how she found the shutters and windows open is evidence of abduction.

If you don't accept evidence from family members, then why was Sarah Payne immediately considered to have been abducted.   She disappeared and only a family member claimed to have seen anything.

The same goes for Ben Needham - he disappeared and we only have his family's word for what happened.

But in your eyes - as there was no independent witness evidence of abduction - it was not possible to be established.       That is not how the police work IMO.

Establishing the credibility of witnesses is vital in cases where no physical evidence is found - and IMO that is what the police did in all the above cases -  including the McCann case.   

It's clear to me that the police have fully satisfied themselves that both Kerry Needham and her family - and the McCanns -  are all credible witnesses.      This has enabled them to rule them out as suspects and it follows therefore that removal by a stranger is the only other viablle alternative.        And they are the experts. 

If you want to ignore the experts  - that's up to you.

The window and shutters weren't in that state when the police arrived. No evidence of a break-in or the window being used. No independent witnesses saw the shutters raised other than the McCanns. It's easy to open a window especially when your fingerprints are found.

She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.  (KM 4 May)

[Benice]

The window and shutters weren't in that state when the police arrived. No evidence of a break-in or the window being used. No independent witnesses saw the shutters raised other than the McCanns. It's easy to open a window especially when your fingerprints are found.

She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.  (KM 4 May)

If the open shutter and windows were part of a pre-conceived cunning plan to convince the police that an intruder had entered 5A -  then why did Gerry close them before the police arrived.   That makes no sense.

The rest of my post is about what IMO police do when there is a lack on independent or physical evidence - i.e. they establish the credibility or otherwise of the witnesses who are family members.  That would be a crucial part of their preliminary investigations IMO.

[pathfinder73]

If the open shutter and windows were part of a pre-conceived cunning plan to convince the police that an intruder had entered 5A -  then why did Gerry close them before the police arrived.   That makes no sense.

The rest of my post is about what IMO police do when there is a lack on independent or physical evidence - i.e. they establish the credibility or otherwise of the witnesses who are family members.  That would be a crucial part of their preliminary investigations IMO.

That is called tampering a no no to police. deleting phone calls and a whole range of stuff instead of out looking like the rest of them. Kate sat alone on the bed deleting her phone call history by the looks of it when she should of rang the cops. Any mother would want to call them straight away if they knew she had been abducted. Who finally sends Matt to call them first? Fiona.

[Benice]

That is called tampering a no no to police. deleting phone calls and a whole range of stuff instead of out looking like the rest of them. Kate sat alone on the bed deleting her phone call history by the looks of it.

You are using hindsight again PF.  When Gerry closed the shutters and then tried to see if they could be opened from the outside  - that would be a normal thing to do IMO at that particular time.  It could be that he was hoping against hope that they could not be opened from the outside and so Madeleine may have opened them.   All kinds of stuff to ward off having to face an abduction as a certainty would be racing through his mind at that time imo.

I don't know enough about mobiles to have an opinion on their usage - but I expect SY will know all the relevant facts.

[pathfinder73]

You are using hindsight again PF.  When Gerry closed the shutters and then tried to see if they could be opened from the outside  - that would be a normal thing to do IMO at that particular time.  It could be that he was hoping against hope that they could not be opened from the outside and so Madeleine may have opened them.   All kinds of stuff to ward off having to face an abduction as a certainty would be racing through his mind at that time imo.

I don't know enough about mobiles to have an opinion on their usage - but I expect SY will know all the relevant facts.

It's not hindsight. You call the cops straight away. She said she knew right away she had been abducted so what is she doing in the apartment all alone?

[Benice]

It's not hindsight. You call the cops straight away. She said she knew right away she had been abducted so what is she doing in the apartment all alone?

What is wrong with her being in the apartment?   Why does she have to be outside it?  I don't get that.  Do you really think she was cool, calm and collected at that time?  According to the witnesses she was in the most terrible state and probably didn't know what she doing herself half the time.  IIRC it wasn't until the next day she realised the bruising on her hands etc were caused when she was hitting out (at the railings?) in her anguish.

Your expectations of how parents who had just been plunged into every parents worst nightmare would/should repond is completely unrealistic IMO.


 
 

[pegasus]

Answer the door.

Yes.
But if you were out you wouldn't even hear the knock.
It's a common burglar's check.