Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[pegasus]

@Sadie - Nobody climbed in - that is why there are no traces of anybody climbing in.
IMO a child disturbed him/her just before he/she climbed in.

[mercury]

@Sadie - Nobody climbed in - that is why there are no traces of anybody climbing in.
IMO a child disturbed him/her just before he/she climbed in.

There is still no real evidence/proof the window in 5a was open/not closed properly/unlocked for an intruder to open it from outside.
I suppose if there was an intruder they could have opened it from inside, for whatever reason (though not, in my opinion, to get rid of the smell of chloroform!!, I mean, how stupid is that idea?) ..but for me, as regards the thread title/question goes, we do not know, so this discussion is null and void

[pathfinder73]

There is still no real evidence/proof the window in 5a was open/not closed properly/unlocked for an intruder to open it from outside.
I suppose if there was an intruder they could have opened it from inside, for whatever reason (though not, in my opinion, to get rid of the smell of chloroform!!, I mean, how stupid is that idea?) ..but for me, as regards the thread title/question goes, we do not know, so this discussion is null and void

The open window makes no sense except for a burglar trying to get in and that never happened but the child went missing. The apartment was unlocked so anybody could get in that way or the child get out. No evidence of the child getting out with the Moyes on the balcony above. Nobody heard anything and we know Madeleine was very loud according to Pamela Fenn on the Tuesday so if she went out into the dark then she would be heard! If the window was opened from the inside then it leads to staging. There was no evidence of anybody passing though it but there was evidence found on the window that connects to staging.

[Brietta]

The open window makes no sense except for a burglar trying to get in and that never happened but the child went missing. The apartment was unlocked so anybody could get in that way or the child get out. No evidence of the child getting out with the Moyes on the balcony above. Nobody heard anything and we know Madeleine was very loud according to Pamela Fenn on the Tuesday so if she went out into the dark then she would be heard! If the window was opened from the inside then it leads to staging. There was no evidence of anybody passing though it but there was evidence found on the window that connects to staging.

I agree there may have been "staging" of the scene ... particularly if the perpetrator wished to detract from the fact s\he had access to a key.
Dr McCann closing the window and lowering the shutter nearly ruined that good idea.

[pathfinder73]

I agree there may have been "staging" of the scene ... particularly if the perpetrator wished to detract from the fact s\he had access to a key.
Dr McCann closing the window and lowering the shutter nearly ruined that good idea.

No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.

[mercury]

No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.

Both the Mccanns said they were conscious not to touch anything but they touched THE only evidence of an intruder before the police arrived, closing the window and lowering the shutter? ok

[Brietta]

No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.

If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them?  That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.

The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes).
That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.

[pathfinder73]

If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them?  That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.

The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes).
That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.

Only the McCanns saw them open. The window was closed and the shutters were down when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm. She tried to raise them from the outside and they twisted and got stuck. This is how the police found them.

[Brietta]

Only the McCanns saw them open. The window was closed and the shutters were down when Dianne arrived 5 minutes after the alarm. She tried to raise them from the outside and they twisted and got stuck. This is how the police found them.

         Any idea why they would have said the window was open and the shutter raise if it was not?

[sadie]

There is still no real evidence/proof the window in 5a was open/not closed properly/unlocked for an intruder to open it from outside.
I suppose if there was an intruder they could have opened it from inside, for whatever reason (though not, in my opinion, to get rid of the smell of chloroform!!, I mean, how stupid is that idea?) ..but for me, as regards the thread title/question goes, we do not know, so this discussion is null and void

Pegasus very cleverly proved that someone had had an attempt at opening the shutters.

Hand prints around the two outside stops that indicated it.

Have you forgotten that?


Seems that either Amarals crew failed to realise what the prints indicated
.. or ..
they chose to ignore them.   They showed that Amarals theory was wrong.

[pegasus]

No you wouldn't do it unless you wanted to get caught. Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters nor the open window except for the McCanns. DW couldn't raise them and that's how the police found them i.e. not raised and the window closed.

"Nobody witnessed the raised noisy shutters ...."
But not everyone was interviewed by police Pathfinder.

[mercury]

Pegasus very cleverly proved that someone had had an attempt at opening the shutters.

Hand prints around the two outside stops that indicated it.

Have you forgotten that?


Seems that either Amarals crew failed to realise what the prints indicated
.. or ..
they chose to ignore them.   They showed that Amarals theory was wrong.

The prints could have been Gerry Mccanns and Diane Websters who both handled the shutters from outside. No one ignored them. They were not complete so unidentifiable. If they were an abductors, why were none found on the outside of the window?

[faithlilly]

If the Drs McCann wished the raised shutter and open window to simulate abduction ... why on earth did they close them?  That surely must have hit the 'cunning plan' on the head.

The only person who wished to mislead investigators was the person who opened them, probably from the inside (how long does it take for goodness sakes).
That person probably used a key to enter the apartment through the front door which was pulled closed on exit ... but that person did not want anyone to think s\he had a key to the front door.

Why would the abductor open the bedroom window to detract from the fact that he had a key if he had been aware that the McCanns had left the patio door open to check ? If he was watching the group and waiting for his opportunity to pounce surely he would have been aware he had a ready made distraction without all the time and noise  that raising the shutter would entail.

[Benice]

Why would the abductor open the bedroom window to detract from the fact that he had a key if he had been aware that the McCanns had left the patio door open to check ? If he was watching the group and waiting for his opportunity to pounce surely he would have been aware he had a ready made distraction without all the time and noise  that raising the shutter would entail.

There are other reasons why an intruder would open the window.

1. To make sure the car park was clear of people before he set out across it.  He couldn't see that from the recessed door.

2. To have a method of a sharp exit, without coming face to face with anyone unexpectedly entering via the patio doors.

[stephen25000]

There are other reasons why an intruder would open the window.

1. To make sure the car park was clear of people before he set out across it.  He couldn't see that from the recessed door.

2. To have a method of a sharp exit, without coming face to face with anyone unexpectedly entering via the patio doors.

No intruder.