Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[pegasus]

Pegasus, my post was in response to Briettas post below
You are quite correct that Madeleine was close by  ... and the twins even closer
BUT you are jumping a great big hurdle by making huge assumptions that Madeleine heard the shutter being opened.
Yet the twins did not?
If you remember, it was Madeleine who was shattered that night. 
She was so tired that she had to be carried home and was in bed first it seems, with the twins, I think from ?Kates? description sitting on her bed to hear the story.
Are you claiming that she who was furthest away and the most sleepy heard the intruder, but not the twins?
Of course they may all have been given a sleeping draught with their meal,.  That we do not know.

The clue here is that certainly someone opened the bedroom door.
It cannot have been either of the younger children.
Therefore it must have been the older child who opened it.
So the older child definitely awoke at some point in time.
All IMO.

[sadie]

The clue here is that certainly someone opened the bedroom door.
It cannot have been either of the younger children.
Therefore it must have been the older child who opened it.
So the older child definitely awoke at some point in time.
All IMO.

I beg to differ. 
I think it was either the intruder that opened it, or the draughts through the open window.  It was a gusty evening with gusts up to 20mph IIRC.

[Brietta]

Did these people run around laying false trails for the investigating officers after the event before leaving the building?
Brietta's more or less thesis is that the "abductor" in the McCann case did just that. I think it highly improbable.
More like in and out like Flynn.

I have suggested one possible reason among many for an intruder to open the window and raise the shutter.  It would have taken seconds.
Madeleine's abduction would have taken a couple of minutes at the most ... so indeed "in and out like Flynn".

Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?

Perhaps the window and shutters did the job of deflecting attention away from who might have been able to enter the apartment via the front door; there were after all more important "staging" theories being formulated at the time.

[Alice Purjorick]

I have suggested one possible reason among many for an intruder to open the window and raise the shutter.  It would have taken seconds.
Madeleine's abduction would have taken a couple of minutes at the most ... so indeed "in and out like Flynn".

Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?

Perhaps the window and shutters did the job of deflecting attention away from who might have been able to enter the apartment via the front door; there were after all more important "staging" theories being formulated at the time.

Full of conspiracy theories aren't we?
Here, borrow this 7kg sledge hammer I am sure it will help you make the pieces fit.

[pathfinder73]

The clue here is that certainly someone opened the bedroom door.
It cannot have been either of the younger children.
Therefore it must have been the older child who opened it.
So the older child definitely awoke at some point in time.
All IMO.

It doesn't mean a thing after Matt put a spanner in the works. Doors don't keep moving to the same position 

[pathfinder73]

Pegasus, my post was in response to Briettas post below

You are quite correct that Madeleine was close by  ... and the twins even closer

BUT you are jumping a great big hurdle by making huge assumptions that Madeleine heard the shutter being opened.

Yet the twins did not?



If you remember, it was Madeleine who was shattered that night. 
She was so tired that she had to be carried home and was in bed first it seems, with the twins, I think from ?Kates? description sitting on her bed to hear the story.
Are you claiming that she who was furthest away and the most sleepy heard the intruder, but not the twins?


Of course they may all have been given a sleeping draught with their meal,.  That we do not know.

She must have been sick and tired that her parents weren't at the beach watching her sailing for the first time but Cat comforted her when she was scared and crying. According to the mother she said it was her best day ever! The unusual behaviour of the mother going to the pool and cleaning instead of watching her daughter or bringing her later to the beach with the others (I'll go for a run and do what I want instead!) opens a can of worms if death is proved.

[pegasus]

I beg to differ. 
I think it was either the intruder that opened it, or the draughts through the open window.  It was a gusty evening with gusts up to 20mph IIRC.

The wind direction we know was such that the almost closed bedroom door would be slammed completely closed when someone opened the window and shutter.

Actually this is very likely to have happened. The noise of the shutter being raised, plus at the same time the sudden abrupt bang of the bedroom door slamming, wake the child.

[sadie]

She must have been sick and tired that her parents weren't at the beach watching her sailing for the first time but Cat comforted her when she was scared and crying. According to the mother she said it was her best day ever! The unusual behaviour of the mother going to the pool and cleaning instead of watching her daughter or bringing her later to the beach with the others (I'll go for a run and do what I want instead!) opens a can of worms if death is proved.

Jeez Pfinder, were my parents there when I swam my first mile
Were they there when ran my first rounder
Were they there when I managed the long fly in the gym

No.

Did I expect it or need it?

No


But
They were there to support me when I was in hospital rather a lot as a youngster.
They were there when I started school
They were there when I competed in Sports Day at school

Ones parents cannot be everywhere holding their childs hand.  In fact it isn't healthy that they are.


Had Kate been there, Madeleine would have missed the thrill of sailing because initially she played up a bit .  Had Kate been there I doubt Madeleine would have sailed.  She would have missed what she described as the best day of her life ever.



I wonder how many of the other parents were watching?

[faithlilly]

I have suggested one possible reason among many for an intruder to open the window and raise the shutter.  It would have taken seconds.
Madeleine's abduction would have taken a couple of minutes at the most ... so indeed "in and out like Flynn".

Do you know of any of the employees being questioned about the availability of the keys to the apartment blocks ... who had access to them and what sort of security was in place regarding them?

Perhaps the window and shutters did the job of deflecting attention away from who might have been able to enter the apartment via the front door; there were after all more important "staging" theories being formulated at the time.

The patio doors were open so no deflection needed.

[pathfinder73]

Jeez Pfinder, were my parents there when I swam my first mile
Were they there when ran my first rounder
Were they there when I managed the long fly in the gym

No.

Did I expect it or need it?

No


But
They were there to support me when I was in hospital rather a lot as a youngster.
They were there when I started school
They were there when I competed in Sports Day at school

Ones parents cannot be everywhere holding their childs hand.  In fact it isn't healthy that they are.


Had Kate been there, Madeleine would have missed the thrill of sailing because initially she played up a bit .  Had Kate been there I doubt Madeleine would have sailed.  She would have missed what she described as the best day of her life ever.



I wonder how many of the other parents were watching?

Dave, Fiona, Matt, Russell and Jane went to the beach that morning.

Erm, you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach.  I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us.  Erm, we, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he didn’t because of looking after Evie, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”.
4078    “Because it was paid?”
 Reply    “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’.  So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point.  And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”. (JT)

[sadie]

Dave, Fiona, Matt, Russell and Jane went to the beach that morning.

Erm, you know, walking down to the beach, so Russell, me and Evie walked down to the beach.  I don’t know, I don’t know what Kate did then (inaudible) but I don’t know where Kate went at that point, but she didn’t come to the beach with us.  Erm, we, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back, because they’d had their second, I think they’d had their second sailing lesson, erm, which Russell should have gone to but he didn’t because of looking after Evie, because I’d paid for the tennis lesson but he hadn’t paid for the sailing lesson we thought I’d do the tennis lesson”.
4078    “Because it was paid?”
 Reply    “Yeah, erm, I think we met Dave and Fi coming back and they said they’d seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat, because they’d taken the kids sailing that morning, so they said ‘Oh we’ve seen Madeleine and Ella on a boat down there’.  So then we went down to the beach, erm, and Russell took out a kayak and I sat and just played on the beach with Evie at that point.  And we saw, erm, they’d come off the boat and we saw Ella and Madeleine and the rest of the group, they were just, erm, they’d just come off the boat and they were getting ready to walk back up to the, erm, tut, the Kids Club, so”. (JT)

It is quite obvious from your post that none of them went specifically "to watch the children sailing".


Dave and Fi saw a bit of it, because it so happened that Dave had his second pre-arranged sailing lesson.  No other reason.  They didn't bother to stay to watch the kids sailing.

Russell couldn't take his pre arranged sailing lesson because he was needed to look after poorly Evie.  Jane had her prearranged tennis lesson then they went down to the beach with Russell.  Russell was compensated somewhat for losing his sailing lesson by hiring a kayak.

None of them went specifically in order to watch the children sailing.  Please dont make things up Pfinder

[pathfinder73]

It is quite obvious from your post that none of them went specifically "to watch the children sailing".


Dave and Fi saw a bit of it, because it so happened that Dave had his second pre-arranged sailing lesson.  No other reason.  They didn't bother to stay to watch the kids sailing.

Russell couldn't take his pre arranged sailing lesson because he was needed to look after poorly Evie.  Jane had her prearranged tennis lesson then they went down to the beach with Russell.  Russell was compensated somewhat for losing his sailing lesson by hiring a kayak.

None of them went specifically in order to watch the children sailing.  Please dont make things up Pfinder

The fact is they were there so could watch them and they took their kids to the beach later all except the McCanns.

[pegasus]

It doesn't mean a thing after Matt put a spanner in the works. Doors don't keep moving to the same position 

Here in Ockham we have a rule of thumb: If a door was left closed, and later it is found open, it's probably because someone has opened it to walk through the doorway 

And here's another: If a room contained 3 people. then later it contains only 2 people, probably 1 person has walked through the doorway to another room.

A professor at Ockham University has even proposed there may be a link betwen the two rules - a possible correlation between the number of people in a room decreasing, and a widening of the door position due to one person walking to another room.

And wouldn't you if someone opened your bedroom window at night?

[pathfinder73]

Here in Ockham we have a rule of thumb: If a door was left closed, and later it is found open, it's probably because someone has opened it to walk through the doorway 

And here's another: If a room contained 3 people. then later it contains only 2 people, probably 1 person has walked through the doorway to another room.

A professor at Ockham University has even proposed there may be a link betwen the two rules - a possible correlation between the number of people in a room decreasing, and a widening of the door position due to one person walking to another room.

And wouldn't you if someone opened your bedroom window at night?

That means one person walked into the room before Gerry's check and another person walked into the same room before Matt checked. Or the simple explanation is the door never moved and that's why it was seen in the same position by two people.

[pegasus]

That means one person walked into the room before Gerry's check and another person walked into the same room before Matt checked. Or the simple explanation is the door never moved and that's why it was seen in the same position by two people.

At least we agree on this, pathfinder?
The door position at 22.00 was the same as the door position at 21.30.

What would you do if in middle of the night you awoke to someone opening from outside your bedroom window?
(a) Stay in bed and relax?
(b) Open your bedroom door and run to another room?