Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[Brietta]

My theory doesn't fail when you are working from the correct timeline not the fantasy one of 10:03 going to check. You are correct he didn't know when the police would be called but he first made sure everyone had split up to search for her and not call the police but Kate could have called them being alone in the apartment. Who saw him examining shutters? Answer the question.

As far as your theory and the timeline is concerned ... why didn't they just do as I suggested in a previous post and leave themselves all night to properly 'stage' a scene? 

None of this faffing about with dead children in tow and running into holidaymakers and their families on the way ... nobody much about between say 3.30am and 4.00am I would imagine ... plenty of time to make it really look like the apartment had been rummaged through and time for shutters to be broken etc ...

Instead of that ~ the silly cookies made sure they lowered the shutters (the raising of which is a pivotal fact of their staging a scene we have been told) before any one could see them ~ to check if it was possible to raise them from outside.

Maybe they just went for the buzz and excitement of making sure they had to have hundreds of people and law enforcement running about while they were in the middle of their devilishly cunning plan of dumping a body on the beach then retrieving it for disposal ... fridge??? coffin??? dog crem???

Hmmm ... when I think about it ... an unthinkable plan of action for which there was no need.  Just have a leisurely wait till the morning ... then do the business.

[pathfinder73]

As far as your theory and the timeline is concerned ... why didn't they just do as I suggested in a previous post and leave themselves all night to properly 'stage' a scene? 

None of this faffing about with dead children in tow and running into holidaymakers and their families on the way ... nobody much about between say 3.30am and 4.00am I would imagine ... plenty of time to make it really look like the apartment had been rummaged through and time for shutters to be broken etc ...

Instead of that ~ the silly cookies made sure they lowered the shutters (the raising of which is a pivotal fact of their staging a scene we have been told) before any one could see them ~ to check if it was possible to raise them from outside.

Maybe they just went for the buzz and excitement of making sure they had to have hundreds of people and law enforcement running about while they were in the middle of their devilishly cunning plan of dumping a body on the beach then retrieving it for disposal ... fridge??? coffin??? dog crem???

Hmmm ... when I think about it ... an unthinkable plan of action for which there was no need.  Just have a leisurely wait till the morning ... then do the business.

Who saw the shutters raised? Answer the question.

[Brietta]

Who saw the shutters raised? Answer the question.

                                                              Madeleine's mother.

[carlymichelle]

                                                              Madeleine's mother.

and if  she   said she saw the loch ness  monster would you believe her?

[Brietta]

and if  she   said she saw the loch ness  monster would you believe her?

You certainly bring a certain je ne sais quoi to whichever discussion you choose to participate in ... at the moment though we are giving Nessie a bit of a miss in preference to discussing the raised shutter in Praia d Luz ... about which it seems you have no opinion.

[pathfinder73]

                                                              Madeleine's mother.

Correct because Dianne Webster didn't when she first got there and found Kate alone in the apartment.

4078
"Okay, the other thing was, you mentioned that when you went back into Kate and Gerry’s apartment immediately after Madeleine had gone missing, and I know you didn’t specify a time, and you went into the room and I think you made a comment that Kate had spoken to you about the shutters being, the window being open.”
Reply
"Yeah the shutters being up and the window open, yeah.”
4078
"Did you see that window at the time?”
Reply
"No I, my recollection is that err I think the shutter had been let back down again or err I don’t, I don’t recall the window being open at the time I went so whether they’d closed it because obviously it was draughty for the twins but I, I can’t be a hundred percent sure about that.”

[pegasus]

Who saw the shutters raised? Answer the question.

(I edited this post to make it more complete)
IMO 1st to see them raised was the person who opened them from outside,
2nd simultaneously was the child,
3rd some time later was the mother,
and 4th about a minute after that the father.

[pathfinder73]

IMO the mother, and then a minute or two later the father, as per statements.

No independent witnesses to confirm that is the case. Blind faith is dangerous and you won't solve any case with that naive unrealistic approach. People lie to save their ass so face it! Others were in their apartment straight after the alarm but only Kate and Gerry saw the open window and raised shutters. Dianne Webster didn't. If you went inside you would want to see the open window  &%+((£ Why are they tampering and destroying possible evidence straight away instead of calling the cops?

David Payne can never give a straight answer  &%+((£

00:39:00 1485 "Did you enter the MCCANN apartment' Well you did. Did you enter the children's room' Which you did. You described what you saw, you've said that you saw the twins. Did you notice anything strange about it''

 Reply "Err, as I say, you know about before, the amount of screaming that was going on in the apartment and around and everything that was kicking off and the fact that the two of them could just sleep through it, you know, again, perhaps just take on board saying that you know sometimes you know, they've had their difficulties with Kate and Gerry with them sleeping through and you know it was just very bizarre that they continued to sleep through. Err you know I did notice obviously that, the change in the, you know the blind and the err window, but you know I can't accurately say it like other people did, you know what, how exactly did they find it, I couldn't say.'

1485 "What do you mean the change in the blinds in the window''

 Reply "Well you know it was pointed out, the window was open, the blind's not, you know, err down it's open, you know  (WTF! - PF) so those things you know I was made aware of but err as I say I couldn't tell you exactly how far down the blind was or how much the window was open.'

00:40:22 1485 "Did Kate say anything about the window and the shutter''

 Reply "Err I'm sure she did but what she exactly said and you know because we were, you know, the first thing you're trying to do is work out how it could be opened you know, what was, you know, err and you know the discussion whether it be open from the inside or the outside but what she said I can't remember. But also on the back of subsequent discussions that we had about what may have happened, it's difficult to say without, or you know things merge into one.'

1485 "What did you do next' Well you took part in assisting in the apartment then you did some searches with Russell and''
 Reply "Matt.'

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/DAVID-PAYNE-ROGATORY.htm

[pegasus]

@Pathfinder "Others were in their apartment straight after the alarm" Straight after? Can you list them?

[pathfinder73]

@Pathfinder "Others were in their apartment straight after the alarm" Straight after? Can you list them?

David Payne was inside but it was pointed out to him the window was open and shutters were up. He saw them down after the alarm. Don't take Gerry long to do his shutter examine does it  Actually it's hard to get anything resembling a proper answer out of DP. Nobody saw the shutters raised except the McCanns  &%+((£

[pegasus]

David Payne was inside but it was pointed out to him the window was open and shutters were up. He saw them down after the alarm. Don't take Gerry long to do his shutter examine does it  Actually it's hard to get anything resembling a proper answer out of DP. Nobody saw the shutters raised except the McCanns  &%+((£

At this moment when KM and GM enter the apartment, how many metres away does your theory place the missing child?
And BTW do you realise what the answer would be in Amaral's theory?

[pathfinder73]

At this moment when KM and GM enter the apartment, how many metres away does your theory place the missing child?
And BTW do you realise what the answer would be in Amaral's theory?

150-200 metres away. Amaral's theory could be the wardrobe but I don't know what his theory is.

[mercury]

Why did Gerry McCann feel the need to discover how an abductor got into the apartment at all? it's not as if it was a lock stock and barrelled place, was it?

[pathfinder73]

Why did Gerry McCann feel the need to discover how an abductor got into the apartment at all? it's not as if it was a lock stock and barrelled place, was it?

Good point. No need to examine shutters when you should be out searching or calling the cops. And why would Kate get Dianne to check the shutters  and try to raise them if Gerry had already done so? Dianne couldn't do it.

What was DP doing in the apartment when Gerry was doing all this? Speedy Gerry has got it sorted.

When he arrived at the bedroom he first noticed that the door was completely open, the window was also open on one side, the external blinds almost fully raised, the curtains drawn back, MADELEINE'S bed was empty but the twins continued sleeping in their cribs. He clarifies that according to what KATE told him, that was the scene that she found when she entered the apartment.
----- Then he closed the external blinds, made his way to the outside and tried to open them, which he managed to do, much to his surprise given that he thought that that was only possible from the inside.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/GERRY-MCCANN-10MAY.htm

She went into the apartment by the side door, which was closed but not locked, as she said before. She noticed that the door to her children's bedroom was completely open, the window was also open, the shutters raised and the curtains open, while she was certain of having closed them all as she always did.

http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/KATE-MCCANN.htm

How can the curtains be drawn back when she said this happened?

[mercury]

That picture is scary, please don't do that to me!! Conjures up images of the American idiots rapture

Well, apologists for everything and anything will argue its translation errors but we have three versions of the curtains positions and activities, must be three translation errors

The curtains were open
Kate ran over and opened the curtains
The curtains wooshed open
Only one statement was taken in English b English people so can't be attributed to that excuse

Eta sorry my mistake two of those statements given in English to English listeners