Could an intruder have opened the shutter and climbed in the window?

[pegasus]

So they tampered with that one as well ?
Nothing like covering all bases, then?

Yes. But it was genuine testing Jassi.
After 8 years most people of BOTH sides (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside.
So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was true - hence the tests.

FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because she thought that to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children (source FP rog).

IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.

[pathfinder73]

Genuine testing Jassi.
After 8 years most people (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside.
So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was possible - hence the tests.

FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children.
Just as IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.

Their job was to find the child and call the cops not to tamper with evidence. The parents shutters shouldn't up at 9:30 and there's only one reason why they would be. Your theory explains nothing because you can't explain how the child disappeared. Nobody heard that child. The Moyes were above, Fenn was above - they heard nowt. My theory explains why she wasn't heard and how she disappeared.

[misty]

Yes. But it was genuine testing Jassi.
After 8 years most people of BOTH sides (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside.
So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was true - hence the tests.

FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because she thought that to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children (source FP rog).

IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.

The bedcovers, Pegasus. Too neat & in the wrong position for a child who had left the bedroom in a panic.
Kate said Madeleine was under the bedcovers when she was put to bed.
GM said she was on top of the bedcovers when he looked in at 9.10.
Why would Madeleine not get back under the covers if she'd popped to the bathroom? It was a chilly night.
I think Madeleine had already been drugged by the intruder and lifted out of bed but that person was then interrupted by GM's unexpected check. That intruder placed Madeleine back on top of the bed to give the appearance she was sleeping & the intruder hid, most probably in the parents' bedroom.
The window was opened from the inside, no question in my mind. Entry & exit quickly & quietly via the front door.

[mercury]

Their job was to find the child and call the cops not to tamper with evidence.

Precisely, WHY would any of them so early on want to know how an abductor got in or out! It stinks..why WOULD IT MATTER so much they had to check????

[pegasus]

The bedcovers, Pegasus. Too neat & in the wrong position for a child who had left the bedroom in a panic.
Kate said Madeleine was under the bedcovers when she was put to bed.
GM said she was on top of the bedcovers when he looked in at 9.10.
Why would Madeleine not get back under the covers if she'd popped to the bathroom? It was a chilly night.
I think Madeleine had already been drugged by the intruder and lifted out of bed but that person was then interrupted by GM's unexpected check. That intruder placed Madeleine back on top of the bed to give the appearance she was sleeping & the intruder hid, most probably in the parents' bedroom.
The window was opened from the inside, no question in my mind. Entry & exit quickly & quietly via the front door.

A child getting out of bed alone would leave the covers neater than an abductor grabbing a child from bed Misty.
Or are you suggesting your abductor pulls the covers back, lifts child, puts child down elsewhere, puts covers back and tidies them?

The reason for getting out of bed and going into another room between about 9.10 and 9.30 and not returning, is IMO not to use the bathroom, it is to move away from someone opening the shutter from outside.

[Mr Gray]

Yes. But it was genuine testing Jassi.
After 8 years most people of BOTH sides (except me) still don't believe the shutters were opened from outside.
So it should be no surprise that members of the group that night also doubted it was true - hence the tests.

FP tried lifting the parent bedroom door shutter, because she thought that to do the same test on the child bedroom shutter would disturb the 2 remaining children (source FP rog).

IMO the shutter being opened before 9.30pm disturbed the first child with the obvious consequence that she went to another room and did not return. This simple event completely explains the disappearance of the child from the child bedroom.

I believe the shutters were opened from the outside

[pegasus]

I believe the shutters were opened from the outside

Good. You and I are way ahead of Mr Amaral on this point Dave. He thought it was impossible.

A simple mechanical study of how the window and shutter work proves that, if the window lock button is not pressed in, the fully closed window and shutter can both be completely opened from outside without damage in about 10 seconds IMO.

[pathfinder73]

Good. You and I are way ahead of Mr Amaral on this point Dave. He thought it was impossible.

A simple mechanical study of how the window and shutter work proves that, if the window lock button is not pressed in, the fully closed window and shutter can both be completely opened from outside without damage in about 10 seconds IMO.

So the child goes to another room. Who silenced her and removed her from the apartment because if she left they would have heard her screaming for help. Once she's awake and can't find her parents she starts screaming for help as Fenn heard on Tue. None of your theory fits with known facts. Your theory relys on the impossible. A window needs to be unlocked and the burglar doesn't enter but runs off. Then Madeleine moves to another room. So what happens next? Why wasn't she heard? None of your theory fits. Things are done simply not moving in and out of rooms moving doors before each checker comes. You cannot seriously believe that complicated mess you have invented happened.

[carlymichelle]

So the child goes to another room. Who silenced her and removed her from the apartment because if she left they would have heard her screaming for help. Once she's awake and can't find her parents she starts screaming for help as Fenn heard on Tue. None of your theory fits with known facts. Your theory relys on the impossible. A window needs to be unlocked and the burglar doesn't enter but runs off. Then Madeleine moves to another room. So what happens next? Why wasn't she heard? None of your theory fits. Things are done simply not moving in and out of rooms moving doors before each checker comes. You cannot seriously believe that complicated mess you have invented happened.

 they are also thinking of a adult perspective  pathfinder  a   almost 4 year old is NOT emotionally abled to do any of the  things  they think maddie  could a  3 year old    is stilla little child

[Mr Gray]

Good. You and I are way ahead of Mr Amaral on this point Dave. He thought it was impossible.

A simple mechanical study of how the window and shutter work proves that, if the window lock button is not pressed in, the fully closed window and shutter can both be completely opened from outside without damage in about 10 seconds IMO.

petermac showed it was possible...

[mercury]

they are also thinking of a adult perspective  pathfinder  a   almost 4 year old is NOT emotionally abled to do any of the  things  they think maddie  could a  3 year old    is stilla little child

Some here say she was mature enough to think about protecting her sibling from an intruder

[pathfinder73]

they are also thinking of a adult perspective  pathfinder  a   almost 4 year old is NOT emotionally abled to do any of the  things  they think maddie  could a  3 year old    is stilla little child

Correct and the place was deserted except for Jes Wilkins. He only saw Gerry and Jane early on at around 8:30. You have Fenn and the Moyes above (outside on their balcony) so she had to be silenced to be removed because nobody heard anything. There were regular checks that night. I don't believe she could be heard and that leads me back to the dog alerts. SY are not searching for a body for a gamble that's for sure.

[misty]

A child getting out of bed alone would leave the covers neater than an abductor grabbing a child from bed Misty.
Or are you suggesting your abductor pulls the covers back, lifts child, puts child down elsewhere, puts covers back and tidies them?

The reason for getting out of bed and going into another room between about 9.10 and 9.30 and not returning, is IMO not to use the bathroom, it is to move away from someone opening the shutter from outside.

I'm suggesting that the clue is in the fact that Madeleine was originally under the covers but around half an hour later she was on top of the covers, apparently asleep. She wasn't clutching CC or her blanket when GM saw her, so clearly not feeing insecure or aware her parents were missing at that stage. The door had moved. Had she left her bed, she would have been aware her parents were not there at that stage because of the darkness & absence of noise.
Tidying up & staging was done after Madeleine had been removed from the apartment & passed to an accomplice.

[carlymichelle]

Some here say she was mature enough to think about protecting her sibling from an intruder

thats a  load of you know  what she  was  a  tiny innocent  child     she couldnt protect    herself or the twins she  was a   child SHE   should   have been protected by gerry and kate and she  wasnt

[misty]

Some here say she was mature enough to think about protecting her sibling from an intruder

You've clearly never raised children.