Author Topic: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC  (Read 9335 times)

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Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #15 on: February 22, 2014, 12:03:58 AM »
Have I said I believe in female superiority?  No I haven't.  I believe in equal rights nothing more; nothing less.

Your words demonstrate you believe in superiority of women even as you try to claim otherwise.

If you believed in equality you would not be claiming that women would not make the mistakes that men do and that more women should have taken part because then the result of the trial would have been different.  In the meantime the mistakes you claim were made were not mistakes at all.  You erroenously suggest that back spatter is rare, that it make sperfect sense for Sheila to batter her large father without incurring any injuries and so forth.     



You seem to be implying that the two female jurors returned not guilty verdicts based on emotion rather than logic (the evidence)?  It could just as easily be argued that women would come down hard on a man accused of shooting two small sleeping boys in bed.  Especially when in this case his ex and extended adoptive family took to the stand and didn't have a good word to say about him.  If the women who returned not guilty verdicts were swayed by emotion then it seems to be there was enough high drama for it to happen and go against JB.

You are the one who suggested this and suggested that he would have gotten off had their been more women.  You are the one making gender an issue not me.   I criticized you for doing so.

People who look at everything with a race prism are themselves racist even if they refuse to admit it.  Those who do so with a gender prism are sexist whether they choose to admit it or not.  You are the one claiming extra women were needed and would have made the judgment more fair which in your eyes means he would be a free man.  That means either you feel that this extra woman would have acquaitted him because you feel that acquitall is the smart verdict and that women are smarter so this extra woman would have agreed with the dissenters or she would have done so because of her emotional state.  So your comment was either about women being controlled by their emotions or inheritantly smarter or both.  You have managed to unintentionally insult your own gender at the same time you suggested women are smarter- what a feat. 

Believe it or not the prosecution did actually use the fact that Sheila's fingernails were still intact and undamaged as evidence. The defence were dozy enough not to counter this. Most women will know that loading and firing a rifle 25 times is extremely unlikely to damage nails and/or vanish.  I break or split a nail a few times a year despite engaging in a wide range of activities on a daily basis.  Perhaps one of the most hazardous things I've ever done as far as nails go is fastening and unfastening ski boots which are incredibly stiff especially when compacted with snow/ice. Not possible to do with gloves on.  I have even used my nails to dig away the snow/ice from the clips and I've never broken a nail in the process.

I am well aware they used this and the OVERALL lack of any wounds on her body at all.  They were wise to do so.  You never bothered to repsond to my other posts which proved that on this point you are hopelessly wrong. I can point to countless situations where women routinely break nails during strenous activities INCLUDING loading magazines I witnessed it happen genius.  I personally observed what you claim doesn't occur.  A magazine has a broing in it.  The more ammo loaded inside the more tension on the spring.  Many magazines including this one in question are difficult to load the final bullets because there is so much tension you much push very hard.  Saying you haven't brokien yours while putting on boots is of no relation at all to trying to load a magazine under the following conditions:

1) under pressure to be able to finish off the victims before they could escape or disarm her
2) supposedly while in a crazy rage which would hurt her dexterity
3) while enduring pseudoparkinsons which would further hurt her dexterity

Not only did she not break any nails she had no damage of any kind to her nail polish, her hands in general or even her arms. Nor did she have any chemicals on her hands as would be associated with handling ammo.  Maybe she loaded the mazazine with her mouth? 

The killer didn't just reload mutliple times.  The killer battered a man who was 6"4" and in good physical condition.  The killer punched him int he face multiple times breaking his nose, and giving him black eyes.  The killer did so while they fought over control of the rifle. Thanks to the suppressor the gun could not be aimed at either of them as they struggled over it. The killer eventually wrested the gun away enough to batter Nevill with the stock.  He used his arms to defend himself from the blows but eventually was struck in the head several times.  Struck so hard the rifle stock shattered.  The stock was sharp at that point and likely to do something to the killer's hands.

Unless the killer was wearing gloves the killer would have had damage in his/her hands from the rifle stock being sharp as well as the blows to Nevill. Have you punched anyone in the face hard?  When you do so you get abrasions to your hand, particularly your knuckles.  Nevill prbably got in some punches as well. It is inconceivable to think that someone with her frame could have broken his nose, managed to take control of the rifle and to bash his head in at all let alone to do so without a mark on her body.

Your claims are not claims from someone with superior knowledge they are the claims made by someone extraordinarily ignorant or you are making claims you know are false because you want people to think Jeremy is innocent.  You are not following any evidence to determine his guilt or innocence you are making up facts that are ridiculous to try to pretend he is innocent.

She beat the crap out of her large father, breaking a stock without so much as a hair out of place, she managed to load and fire 25 shots without any evidence of doings so, she was in a crazy rage yet had the foresight to remove the phone from the bedroom and put the silencer on to commit the murders, then removed it and put it away so no one would know she used it, though it made no difference if anyone knew she used it. Nevill wouldn't have been able to speak because of his injuries but he miraculously spoke to Jeremy over the phone anyway not telling him he had been shot or alternatively Sheila threatened Nevill and June but did not fire yet, he ran downstairs to use the phone and called Jeremy. Sheila gave chase and instead of shooting Nevill right away she knocked the phone out of his hands and ordered him to march upstairs again.  Rather than try to disarm her he obeys.  Then she shoots them in the bedroom. instead of trying to disarm her he runs down to the kitchen again.  there he finally tries to disarm her and they wrestle over the rifle.  They kock over various chairs and so forth as they wrestle. The silencer scrapes against the underneath of the mantle shelf.  She holds on to the rifle with only one hand and punches him in the face repeatedly with the other- breaking his nose and giving him black eyes. He somehow doesn't manage to get the gun when she let go with one hand. She then uses 2 hands again and wins control. He is too close to shoot she strikes him with the butt of the rifle.  He uses his arms to try to block but she manages to strike his head eventually multiple times- so hard that the stock breaks and he is knocked unconscious.  Then she is able to fire into his head and kill him.         
     
How did you try to explain away the lack of any gunshot residue on her hands and body and lack of any evidence she handled any bullets?  You suggest that she took a bath and changed her clothes before killing herself.  Her hair didn't indicate she washed and then killed herself.  No clothes were around that she would have changed out of that had any blood evidence or gunshot residue.  So there is no evidence to suggest this actually happened.  More importantly though, why would she do so? Why would she take a shower and change her clothing just to commit suicide?  Plus she still would have to have fired 2 rounds to kill herself which would have resulted in gunshot residue on her clothing, especially with her firing with the gun against her and at her throat.  Nope none on her hands or gown at all.

It reminds me of My Cousin Vinny with the magic grits.  Maybe she had a magical powers to kill without leaving any evidence of beting or shooting anyone. To those not living in fantasy land though the truth is clear.   
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Amanda3266

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #16 on: February 22, 2014, 12:56:03 PM »
Just as an aside with regard to nails we need to keep in mind that Sheila is highly unlikely to have had access to the higher quality false nails that we do now. And as you rightly note Holly, the modern nails are very hard wearing as are the colours.
On the rare occasions I get my nails done.....I note, like Holly that they are very hard wearing.
Sheila just would not have had that same  quality....if indeed she was even wearing false nails.

This then becomes very relevant to the prosecution case as clearly loading and reloading a rifle in an uncoordinated state (and she was said to be uncoordinated without the effects of the Haliperidol she had received that day) would have made a difference to her nails.

In addition Sheila had not received the drug she would normally have had to counteract the effects of the Haliperidol.

In fact having cared for people on Haliperidol is my one reason for considering Sheila highly unlikely to have carried out these murders......the effects of the drug are hideous and leave the patient very woozy and drunk like. If Sheila had this drug (and it is medically recorded as having been given that day) but had not had the drug to counteract the drowsy effects then it makes sense that (as Jeremy says) ...she did not take part in any conversations that evening. Whatever the nature of that conversation was.


Offline Mr Moderator

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #17 on: February 22, 2014, 01:08:19 PM »
I dont usually get involved in this case but I have read much of what has been posted recently by a number of members and one thing would appear to be patently obvious to the outsider and that is that a petite girl unaccustomed to the workings of a .22 rifle could not have loaded and fired it 25 times without missing once, entered into a hand to hand fight with her father who was according to some over 6' 4" and ended up in an immaculate and non dishevelled state except for two bullet wounds in her throat. 

I defy anyone to explain that?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2014, 01:10:10 PM by Mr Moderator »

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #18 on: February 22, 2014, 07:02:14 PM »
I dont usually get involved in this case but I have read much of what has been posted recently by a number of members and one thing would appear to be patently obvious to the outsider and that is that a petite girl unaccustomed to the workings of a .22 rifle could not have loaded and fired it 25 times without missing once, entered into a hand to hand fight with her father who was according to some over 6' 4" and ended up in an immaculate and non dishevelled state except for two bullet wounds in her throat. 

I defy anyone to explain that?

Playing Devil's advocate the following excuses can be made:

1) She was wearing gloves to protect her hands

2) Instead of firing in a frenzy she took care to aim and fired each shot at relatively close range to make it easier to hit.  The boys were shot in their sleep from not too distant.  How many times June was shot after she was already disabled is unknown.  June could have been shot in bed, got up and ran towards the door, collapsed and then been shot more after she lay on the floor because of her initial wounds.  Sheila could have taken great care to aim in bed and then aim as June lay on the floor.  Some of her shots to Nevill suggest she didn't aim as well as she would have liked hitting him in the shoulder, elbow and lip.  In the master bedroom the only truly wonderful shot she made upstairs to him was the bullet that shattered his teeth, jaw and voicebox.  While it is suggested that the killer shot Nevill a 5th time from the stairs, the medical examiner suggested that based on the groupings he thinks that all 4 shots to Nevill's skull were delivered in the kitchen in quick succession.  It is speculated the casing on the stairs stuck to a shoe and was accidentally dragged there.  These 4 shots would have been fired while he was passed out and not moving thus Sheila could have taken great care to aim and stood close enough not to miss.

Most of the shots then would have been delivered when people were sleeping or otherwise immobilized.  Those conditions explain why she could do it without missing.  A little luck explains her not missing with any shots fired at June or Nevill as they were moving which probably was no more than 3 shots to Nevill and likewise a handful at most as June moved but she was not moving with the speed Nevill was. Other than these the shots were all against people sleeping or passed out.

3) Nevill was weak from the shots to his lip, that broke his jaw, to his shoulder and to his elbow and this enabled Sheila to overpower him.  In her frenzied state she had extra strength and he was near passing out from blood loss so he was barely able to defend himself and offer any resistance. 

4) She fixed her hair and cleaned herself up before killing herself

I have seen most of these points made, I thought up the part about the shots myself because I have not seen it raised even though it is the most obvious one for Bamber apologists to make.  The killer probably made less than 10 shots against victims as they were moving.

Rebuttal 

Even though less than 10 shots were against moving victims these shots still would have been difficult for someone who was not accustomed to the gun, on medication that affected depth perception and dexterity. and supposedly in a crazy frenzy.  It still is hard to imagine someone landing all shots fired under these circumstances. Hitting a moving target is not as easy as they show on television.

Moreover, these explanations squarely contradict Jeremy's own account of what was occurring. 

Jeremy insists that his father stated Sheila was in a crazy rage and threatening with a gun.

The explanations feature Sheila being in full mental control and acting very thoughtfully and carefully.  Earlier in the day she made sure to remove the phone from the bed room so no one could call for help. After everyone was asleep she sought out a gun.  Jeremy left a gun out and the magazine was already loaded so she figured she would use that gun.  She sought out and installed the suppressor though because Jeremy had not attached it himself. When she got the suppressor she would have seen other weapons with a scope and suppressor attached but decided to go with the gun lacking a scope and to put a suppressor on herself.   She put on gloves to keep her hands from getting gunshot residue on them.  She then went in her parents bedroom and began to fire as they slept.  Both woke up and got out of bed despite their wounds.  June was wounded enough times that she wa sunable to make it out of the room.  Nevill's most severe wound was the one that shattered his teeth, jaw and voicebox. This would have rendered him unable to speak but would have taken a long time before it incapacitated him. Sheila pursued him but did not fire wildly at him as he ran she only fired after taking great aim despite having no scope to aid her so was lucky enough to hit him those few times he was on the move as she fired.  The same with her mother she only fired after taking care to aim. She didn't shoot him again until he was passed out in the kitchen so she would not miss. She then killed her sons, removed the silencer and put it away. She removed her gloves and clothing, washed up and put on a fresh nightgown.  Then she killed herself.

This narrative features Sheila being in full control not in a crazy frenzy.  It completely ignores the effects of her medication which causes dexterity problems and features her planning beforehand to carry the murders out.  It was a cold, calculated murder suicide planned in advance. The only explanation though for hiding the phone, wearing gloves and cleaning herself off would be that she was planning to escape not to commit suicide.  If she were planning to kill herself why would hide the phone and after the murder  wash up and dispose of evidence?  It makes no sense. This only would make sense if she planned to blame the murders on someone else and to start a new life without her parents and children.   

Moreover this narrative completely ignores the nature of the struggle between Nevill and his killer.  This narrative features Nevill passing out and then being beated by his killer while he was already nearly unconscious.  If he were nearly unconscious his killer would simply have shot him not severely beat him. Especially if Sheila were as cold and calculating as claimed she would just shoot him.

The physical evidence leaves no question of what happened in the kitchen.  Nevill managed to grab the gun. Nevill and his killer stuggled for control of the weapon. As they wrestled they knocked over various things. Their bodies and the gun were knocking things over as they struck them. The suppressor was bashing against things including the underside of the mantle and scraped paint off. Nevill wasn't near passing out, he had a grip on the gun that was very strong.  The killer had to punch Nevill in his face repeatedly to regain sole possession of the rifle.  The killer broke his nose and gave him 2 black eyes in the process. Upon regaining sole control the killer began to strike him with the butt of the rifle. He used his arms to block the blows thus receiving defensive wounds in the process. Eventually the killer was able to strike him repeatedly in the head with the rifle so hard that the stock of the rifle broke, knocking Nevill unconscious. Then the last 3-4 shots were delivered to him as he lay slumped over a char that had been knocked over during this scuffle.

Nevill was not weak and nearly passing out, he was able to grab the rifle and had a tight grip on it. He took one hell of a beating before finally passing out.  It is a mystery how someone on a sedative like Sheila took which caused dexterity and muscle control problems as a side effect could inflict such a beating on a man who was so much larger and stronger.  He is the one who most likely would have gained control of the weapon had they been wrestling over it. How could she inflict the severe beating and receive nothing at all in return?  The gloves only explain how her hands could have been spared as she struck him. He was fighting back though and against a woman of her size he would have inflicted some kind of wound to her. Proponents cannot rationally explain how she could win this severe fight let alone win without receiving a scratch.  Thus they pretend the fight was little more than him nearly passing out and being battered while as he was defenseless.  The physical evidence about this struggle though says otherwise.  Moreover, if he were ready to pass out why beat him to a pulp instead of just shooting him?  He grabbed the gun and tried to take it from his killer that is why this struggle ensured. He would have gotten it away from her if she had been the killer.

There is no evidence she ever changed her clothes.  Her clothes surely would have had gun shot residue from firing all these shots and she likely would have had blood on her clothing as well including gloves had she worn them.  Indeed the killer transferred blood to the rear of the silencer upon removing it thus had to have blood on him/her to transfer it. Were there any clothes in the wash that could have been worn? The only clothes soaking that had blood were her panties because she was menstruating. If her goal was murder suicide then there is no reason why she would change her clothes even if she were the killer. Nor did she have any reason to go put the suppressor away.  The narrative would have to be amended to her planning to go live on her own without her parents and sons for that to make sense. The argument would have to be that she did not intend to commit suicide.  That she planned to claim someone else committed the killings but because the police showed up so soon instead she killed herself and police somehow missed hearing the gunshots.   

2 problems.  1) What would be her motive to kill them all?  Murder suicide makes no sense but planning to kill them all without planning to kill herself too makes even less sense.  All this planning would require her to have some plan of blaming someone else and some endgame where she started a new life.  2) how could she expect to get away with it after the phone call?  If she decided to kill herself because she was found out why bother to follow through with her plan by putting away the suppressor,  washing up and changing clothes?  Why would she even need to put away the supporessor?  It makes no sense from either standpoint. If she intended to get away with the crime and blame someone else why remove the suppressor at all let alone remove it and put it away?   She only needed to remove the suppressor if she wanted to shoot herself.  Why put it away though if she decided to comit suicide?

There is no way to come up with a narrative where she is the killer that makes sense, flows perfectly and accounts for all the physical evidence.  But with Jeremy as the killer everything falls into place completely.     
 
         
« Last Edit: February 23, 2014, 05:11:22 AM by scipio_usmc »
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline puglove

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2014, 11:06:45 PM »
Watcha puglove  8((()*/  Hope you've had a good week.

I am reminded of David James Smith interview with JB some 3 years ago:

"He will be 50 in January and looks his age, in sharp contrast to the fine-boned, haughty youth in photographs of 25 years ago. He is jowly, porky, his hair tinged with grey. His upper body muscles suggest years of lifting weights in prison gyms, but his general appearance is sagged, middle-aged and tired. He wears baggy blue denims, black trainers and a red Lonsdale T-shirt".

IF his conviction is ever quashed his greatest challenge ever might well be reintegrating back into society.

Hi Holly!   8((()*/

I think that Bamber's supporters have long kidded themselves that, if he was ever released, he'd buy his little farm (or go to Australia!) and live peaceably and happily ever after, breeding hamsters and eating jelly and blancmange.

Judging by his appalling (and fairly recent) behaviour towards Daisy, a lovely lady who was doing her utmost to help him, I doubt if he'd last much more than a week before he was wondering who he could rip off, and plotting his next murder(s).

IMO!
Jeremy Bamber kicked Mike Tesko in the fanny.

Offline goatboy

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2014, 09:45:43 AM »
Hi Holly!   8((()*/

I think that Bamber's supporters have long kidded themselves that, if he was ever released, he'd buy his little farm (or go to Australia!) and live peaceably and happily ever after, breeding hamsters and eating jelly and blancmange.

Judging by his appalling (and fairly recent) behaviour towards Daisy, a lovely lady who was doing her utmost to help him, I doubt if he'd last much more than a week before he was wondering who he could rip off, and plotting his next murder(s).

IMO!

Well, Holly did explain that assuming Bamber is innocent you couldn't blame him for being a bit impatient and bitter at being in prison for so long for a crime he didn't commit, and with this in mind you could explain that is why he turned on Daisy like he did. However, an opposing point of view is that it is further evidence of his ability to manipulate and use people and cast them aside as soon as they have outlived their usefulness to him. And the way he did turn on her suggests not just a nasty streak but a total lack of empathy. For me his lack of empathy and his adeptness at using and manipulating people is further suggestion that he was more than able to carry out the crimes he is in prison for.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2014, 08:41:25 PM »
I dont usually get involved in this case but I have read much of what has been posted recently by a number of members and one thing would appear to be patently obvious to the outsider and that is that a petite girl unaccustomed to the workings of a .22 rifle could not have loaded and fired it 25 times without missing once, entered into a hand to hand fight with her father who was according to some over 6' 4" and ended up in an immaculate and non dishevelled state except for two bullet wounds in her throat. 

I defy anyone to explain that?

An experienced pathologist seemed to think it was possible that is why he said he was unable to confirm murder or suicide.

Sheila had a little knowledge of guns.  I don't see that anyone needs to be a mastermind to load and fire the said rifle 25 times.  All shots were close range so perhaps difficult to miss.

I don't think anyone entered into a hand to hand fight with Nevill as he was too badly injured having received the 3 or 4 shots in the bedroom.

Quite likely, if Sheila was responsible, that she washed/showered and changed as suggested by Prof Knight at trial.

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline scipio_usmc

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2014, 10:54:38 PM »
An experienced pathologist seemed to think it was possible that is why he said he was unable to confirm murder or suicide.

The job of the pathologist was to assess murder or suicide based on the wounds. The assessment was not made by looking at all the available evidence including the suppressor contianing her blood.  The pathologist assessment is not the end all, be all it is common for the assessment to not be detemrinative and for all the evidence in the case to provide the key. 

Sheila had a little knowledge of guns.  I don't see that anyone needs to be a mastermind to load and fire the said rifle 25 times.  All shots were close range so perhaps difficult to miss.

It is not a fact that she had a little knowledge about guns that was an allegation merely.  The only evidence she had even a shred of knowledge about guns came from Jeremy Bamber alleging it.  He alleged that her knowledge consisted of her shooting a gun with him when she was a child.  He didn't say what type of gun or whether she was taught to load it herself or simply had it handed to her and told how to operate it.  No one else backed up Jeremy's allegation it was uncorroborated.  All other testimony was that she had no interest in guns and didn't touch them.

Is Jeremy's claim credible?

1) it was a self-serving claim, he wanted people to believe she could figure out how to operate the murder weapon so this is a reason to be suspicious   
2) He already previously lied about this very issues so this is another reason to be suspicious.  He initially told police who arrived at the scene that she had fired all the guns in the house and was proficient with them.  Why did he lie?  Among other things he wanted police to believe she was very capable of using firearms and could shoot someone.   
Why did he change his account?  The farm had workers and visitors (including extended family) around constantly and they all stated she had no interest in guns and didn't touch them. Jeremy didn't want to look like a liar to the jury.  He would look like a liar if he claimed to the jury that she liked to go target shooting but then everyone else testified she never went target shooting and didn't even touch guns.  Multiple peopel against his word when he is saying something self-serving is not good. 

So he amended his account to one that these witnesses could not impeach. He said he never saw her handle a gun as an adult (thus aggreeing with the witness) but claimed she went target shooting with him as a child. The people who testified were not necessarily around when she was a child and this target shoot might have happened.  They would not be able to remember anything that long ago even if any had been around then.    How could they say for sure she could have gone target shooting once as a child? 

By changing his story he effectively conceded he lied to police.  But you had to pay close attention to notice the fact.  If there were a conflict in testimony during the trial that would be a bigger deal and be obvious to jurors.  Less obvious was to notice he lied to police.  How did he lie?  Well the guns in the house were all obtained while she was an adult.  Therefore none of them could have been used the time they went target shooting together even if this actually did happen.  He stipulated he had not seen her handle a gun as an adult which means he effectively stipulated he had not seen her handle and of the guns in the house at the time of the murders because all of them were obtained when she was an adult. Thus when he told police she used allo firearms in the house and was proficient with them he had no basis for making this claim it was a lie.  Notice that you have to actually analyze it to see that he lied.  He figured the jury would not notice this.  The jury would hear that he agreed she hadn't fired weapons as an adult but had as a child and thus would believe she knew how to use a gun.
   
3) Even if she had gone target shooting as a child does that mean she remembered it from so long ago and knew how to use the murder weapon?  No. Even if she did use a gun as a child she might not remember and worse it was not the same model.  Because it was not the same model the gun she used might not have been a semi-auto.  You don't just load a magazine into the gun, you must chamber a round for the gun to fire. The operation of the gun will automatically reload it till the gun is empty but the initial round must be chambered manually.  She might not remember this even if she had used a sei-auto as a child and if she had never used a semi-auto before she would probably not be aware of the fact she needed to chamber around let alone figure out how to do so.  Since she never used it before she would not know where the magazine release is so that she could remove the magazine to reload. Losing time to figure out how to do such would have been a problem. She didn't have multiple magazines.  The magazine needed to be removed from the gun and that magazine reloaded which takes some time. Doing this for the first time under pressure would be bad enough let alone while in a crazy frenzy and with the dexterity problems assocatiaied with her medicine.  Loss of time means opportunity for Nevill to disarm her.

The bottom line is this, she never used the murder weapon before, she had not used any gun as an adult and had no interest in them thus didn't make it a point to learn how to use them.  There is no evidence she ever used a semi-auto before.  The only evidence she ever used a gun ever was an uncorroborated allegation form Jeremy that she target shot with him as a child but the type of gun was never mentioned so even if it happened there is no evidence it had the same kind of action (the operation of the weapon is its action, semi-auto, bolt action, lever action etc) as the murder weapon. He previously lied about this very issue because he wanted police ot believe she knew how to use a gun.  If she actually had used it why did he need to lie?  Which suggests this was also a lie to still find a way to claim she knew how to use a gun.  At the end of the day it was a naked self-seving allegation that still doesn't establish she would know how to use the urder weapon even if it were true. 

I don't think anyone entered into a hand to hand fight with Nevill as he was too badly injured having received the 3 or 4 shots in the bedroom.

Quite likely, if Sheila was responsible, that she washed/showered and changed as suggested by Prof Knight at trial.

The fact you refuse to believe (or refuse to adit) Nevill's killer engaged in to hand to hand combat with him doesn't mean it didn't happen.  The physical evidence proves this did occur.  I already addressed this in other threads where you made the same claims.     

Your account is that Nevill was so weak he simply passed out and was shot to death as he was slumped over, there was no struggle.

If that were the case then when did the killer punch and break his nose, punch his face enough additional times to give him 2 black eyes and why did the killer bash him with the rifle?  He was not passed out when this occurred, he was still alert enough to block the rifle blows with his arms because he had the defensive wounds to prove he did such.  Eventually though the killer did knocked him out with he rifle by hitting him repeatedly over the head with it to the point of breaking the rifle stock.  Do you know the pressure necessary to break a rifle stock?  He had been hit extremely hard by someone with substantial strength. 

If he had been nearly passed out they why would th ekiller need to punch him in the face multiple times brekaing his nose and giving him black eyes and why would the killer need to bash him over the head?  If he were near passing out the killer would have simply shot him or if the gun was empty would have reloaded and then shot him.  The killer would not have resorted to close quarters combat at all.

I left out some more evidence.  There is evidence that Nevill grabbed the gun and tried to wrestle it away from his killer.  So much for him being near passing out.  Nevill and his killer grappled over the gun and in the process they swayed all around the kitchen knocking over things.  The rifle was going all over the place as each tried to gain control.  It was knocking into things, knocking things over and scratched underneath the mantle leaving a pattern indicating the rifle was not simply moving in one direction but the men were fighting for control.  Not only is there evidence that this did occur, it is the only explanation as to why the killer did not simply shoot Nevill upon entering the kitchen. Nevill grabbed it and that is why the killer could not fire even if the gun was loaded.  The killer had to beat Nevill up to regain control and then had to bludgeon him with the rifle to incapactiate him so the killer could then step back, aim and fire or reload and then fire.

The broken stock, the wounds caused to Nevill's arms and head by the stock, his broken nose, black eyes and the various damage to the kitchen including chairs knocked over prove without a doubt this struggle occurred.  Turning a blind eye and saying you don't believe it happened means little more than you are ignoring evidence that suggests Sheila didn't do it.

Washing up would not get rid of some of the wounds that Nevill would have inflicted to Sheila during the course of the struggle or that she would have inficted upon herself.  Her own actions of punching his and wielding the broken stock would have resulted in abrasions to the outside and inside of her hands.   

Moreover, why would she wash up before killing herself?  What sense does it make to take a shower and change clothes so that there was no evidence on her hands and clothing of being the murderer?  Why would she go put the supporessor away in the closet instead of just leaving it wherever she removed it?  The only reason she would need to remove it would be to kill herself.  Even the defense concedes the silencer was used in the crimes arguing that it was Nevill and June's blood mixed inside not Sheila's.  Why would she put the silencer away and wash up?  Your suggestions do not require us to make one leap they require us to make leap after leap after leap to try to find a way to suggest Sheila was the killer. 

There is irrefutable evidence that Nevill
“...there are three classes of intellects: one which comprehends by itself; another which appreciates what others comprehend; and a third which neither comprehends by itself nor by the showing of others; the first is the most excellent, the second is good, the third is useless.”  Niccolò Machiavelli

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2014, 10:56:21 AM »
The job of the pathologist was to assess murder or suicide based on the wounds. The assessment was not made by looking at all the available evidence including the suppressor contianing her blood.  The pathologist assessment is not the end all, be all it is common for the assessment to not be detemrinative and for all the evidence in the case to provide the key. 

It is not a fact that she had a little knowledge about guns that was an allegation merely.  The only evidence she had even a shred of knowledge about guns came from Jeremy Bamber alleging it.  He alleged that her knowledge consisted of her shooting a gun with him when she was a child.  He didn't say what type of gun or whether she was taught to load it herself or simply had it handed to her and told how to operate it.  No one else backed up Jeremy's allegation it was uncorroborated.  All other testimony was that she had no interest in guns and didn't touch them.

Is Jeremy's claim credible?

1) it was a self-serving claim, he wanted people to believe she could figure out how to operate the murder weapon so this is a reason to be suspicious   
2) He already previously lied about this very issues so this is another reason to be suspicious.  He initially told police who arrived at the scene that she had fired all the guns in the house and was proficient with them.  Why did he lie?  Among other things he wanted police to believe she was very capable of using firearms and could shoot someone.   
Why did he change his account?  The farm had workers and visitors (including extended family) around constantly and they all stated she had no interest in guns and didn't touch them. Jeremy didn't want to look like a liar to the jury.  He would look like a liar if he claimed to the jury that she liked to go target shooting but then everyone else testified she never went target shooting and didn't even touch guns.  Multiple peopel against his word when he is saying something self-serving is not good. 

So he amended his account to one that these witnesses could not impeach. He said he never saw her handle a gun as an adult (thus aggreeing with the witness) but claimed she went target shooting with him as a child. The people who testified were not necessarily around when she was a child and this target shoot might have happened.  They would not be able to remember anything that long ago even if any had been around then.    How could they say for sure she could have gone target shooting once as a child? 

By changing his story he effectively conceded he lied to police.  But you had to pay close attention to notice the fact.  If there were a conflict in testimony during the trial that would be a bigger deal and be obvious to jurors.  Less obvious was to notice he lied to police.  How did he lie?  Well the guns in the house were all obtained while she was an adult.  Therefore none of them could have been used the time they went target shooting together even if this actually did happen.  He stipulated he had not seen her handle a gun as an adult which means he effectively stipulated he had not seen her handle and of the guns in the house at the time of the murders because all of them were obtained when she was an adult. Thus when he told police she used allo firearms in the house and was proficient with them he had no basis for making this claim it was a lie.  Notice that you have to actually analyze it to see that he lied.  He figured the jury would not notice this.  The jury would hear that he agreed she hadn't fired weapons as an adult but had as a child and thus would believe she knew how to use a gun.
   
3) Even if she had gone target shooting as a child does that mean she remembered it from so long ago and knew how to use the murder weapon?  No. Even if she did use a gun as a child she might not remember and worse it was not the same model.  Because it was not the same model the gun she used might not have been a semi-auto.  You don't just load a magazine into the gun, you must chamber a round for the gun to fire. The operation of the gun will automatically reload it till the gun is empty but the initial round must be chambered manually.  She might not remember this even if she had used a sei-auto as a child and if she had never used a semi-auto before she would probably not be aware of the fact she needed to chamber around let alone figure out how to do so.  Since she never used it before she would not know where the magazine release is so that she could remove the magazine to reload. Losing time to figure out how to do such would have been a problem. She didn't have multiple magazines.  The magazine needed to be removed from the gun and that magazine reloaded which takes some time. Doing this for the first time under pressure would be bad enough let alone while in a crazy frenzy and with the dexterity problems assocatiaied with her medicine.  Loss of time means opportunity for Nevill to disarm her.

The bottom line is this, she never used the murder weapon before, she had not used any gun as an adult and had no interest in them thus didn't make it a point to learn how to use them.  There is no evidence she ever used a semi-auto before.  The only evidence she ever used a gun ever was an uncorroborated allegation form Jeremy that she target shot with him as a child but the type of gun was never mentioned so even if it happened there is no evidence it had the same kind of action (the operation of the weapon is its action, semi-auto, bolt action, lever action etc) as the murder weapon. He previously lied about this very issue because he wanted police ot believe she knew how to use a gun.  If she actually had used it why did he need to lie?  Which suggests this was also a lie to still find a way to claim she knew how to use a gun.  At the end of the day it was a naked self-seving allegation that still doesn't establish she would know how to use the urder weapon even if it were true. 

The fact you refuse to believe (or refuse to adit) Nevill's killer engaged in to hand to hand combat with him doesn't mean it didn't happen.  The physical evidence proves this did occur.  I already addressed this in other threads where you made the same claims.     

Your account is that Nevill was so weak he simply passed out and was shot to death as he was slumped over, there was no struggle.

If that were the case then when did the killer punch and break his nose, punch his face enough additional times to give him 2 black eyes and why did the killer bash him with the rifle?  He was not passed out when this occurred, he was still alert enough to block the rifle blows with his arms because he had the defensive wounds to prove he did such.  Eventually though the killer did knocked him out with he rifle by hitting him repeatedly over the head with it to the point of breaking the rifle stock.  Do you know the pressure necessary to break a rifle stock?  He had been hit extremely hard by someone with substantial strength. 

If he had been nearly passed out they why would th ekiller need to punch him in the face multiple times brekaing his nose and giving him black eyes and why would the killer need to bash him over the head?  If he were near passing out the killer would have simply shot him or if the gun was empty would have reloaded and then shot him.  The killer would not have resorted to close quarters combat at all.

I left out some more evidence.  There is evidence that Nevill grabbed the gun and tried to wrestle it away from his killer.  So much for him being near passing out.  Nevill and his killer grappled over the gun and in the process they swayed all around the kitchen knocking over things.  The rifle was going all over the place as each tried to gain control.  It was knocking into things, knocking things over and scratched underneath the mantle leaving a pattern indicating the rifle was not simply moving in one direction but the men were fighting for control.  Not only is there evidence that this did occur, it is the only explanation as to why the killer did not simply shoot Nevill upon entering the kitchen. Nevill grabbed it and that is why the killer could not fire even if the gun was loaded.  The killer had to beat Nevill up to regain control and then had to bludgeon him with the rifle to incapactiate him so the killer could then step back, aim and fire or reload and then fire.

The broken stock, the wounds caused to Nevill's arms and head by the stock, his broken nose, black eyes and the various damage to the kitchen including chairs knocked over prove without a doubt this struggle occurred.  Turning a blind eye and saying you don't believe it happened means little more than you are ignoring evidence that suggests Sheila didn't do it.

Washing up would not get rid of some of the wounds that Nevill would have inflicted to Sheila during the course of the struggle or that she would have inficted upon herself.  Her own actions of punching his and wielding the broken stock would have resulted in abrasions to the outside and inside of her hands.   

Moreover, why would she wash up before killing herself?  What sense does it make to take a shower and change clothes so that there was no evidence on her hands and clothing of being the murderer?  Why would she go put the supporessor away in the closet instead of just leaving it wherever she removed it?  The only reason she would need to remove it would be to kill herself.  Even the defense concedes the silencer was used in the crimes arguing that it was Nevill and June's blood mixed inside not Sheila's.  Why would she put the silencer away and wash up?  Your suggestions do not require us to make one leap they require us to make leap after leap after leap to try to find a way to suggest Sheila was the killer. 

There is irrefutable evidence that Nevill

You state "The only evidence she had even a shred of knowledge about guns came from Jeremy Bamber alleging it".  And "No one else backed up Jeremy's allegation it was uncorroborated". 

The above is simply untrue.  Here in the ITV docu at circa 6.40 in David Boutflour confirms Sheila had a little knowledge of guns.  You don't need to be a nuclear physicist to load and fire a damn rifle and contrary to popular opinion Sheila was an intelligent woman.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_i2CjYDJGTo

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2014, 01:15:05 PM »
You have to have evidence to quash a conviction and convincing evidence at that.  I have yet to see anything which could fall into this category as far as Jeremy Bamber is concerned.  Lets face it, there is no evidence of innocence, had there been I would be the first to herald it!
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #25 on: February 24, 2014, 01:27:02 PM »
You have to have evidence to quash a conviction and convincing evidence at that.  I have yet to see anything which could fall into this category as far as Jeremy Bamber is concerned.  Lets face it, there is no evidence of innocence, had there been I would be the first to herald it!

No evidence of guilt either as far as I can see.  The first appeal in '89 was based on the judge's summing up and as far as I can see it was WRONG and misled the jury:

Page 12 of summing up

"Now I think that does complete the evidence of those experts, so it all comes down to this, does it not?  Mr Hayward says, "Well to begin with, merely analysing the blood inside the moderator, it correponds with Sheila Caffell's.

Page 13 of summing up

"then come to Mr Fletcher's evidence: "One of Sheila's wounds clearly was a contact wound", so that is entirely consistent with it being her blood in the end of the moderator".

The above statements imply that the evidence points to Sheila's blood being found in the moderator.  This is WRONG as it was impossible to conclude then that Sheila's blood was in the moderator.  It was only possible to state that the blood found in the silencer matched Sheila's blood type/group which is not exclusive to her and also matched RB's.

It appears that the possibility of contamination and the fact that it could never be proved that Sheila's blood was in the silencer was never presented to the jury? 

Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2014, 01:34:46 PM »
As we have discussed already in great detail it is the evidence relating to Sheila's non involvement which condemns Jeremy by default.  Add to this the evidence of his own behavior and that by Julie Mugford and others and you have a fait accompli.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2014, 01:36:37 PM by John »
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #27 on: February 24, 2014, 01:59:03 PM »
As we have discussed already in great detail it is the evidence relating to Sheila's non involvement which condemns Jeremy by default.  Add to this the evidence of his own behavior and that by Julie Mugford and others and you have a fait accompli.

Due to the way the Soc was treated eg buckets of blood stained clothing removed without analysis along with a pair of slippers, carpets destroyed etc we do not have the full picture.

I would not want to rely on anything put forward re JB's behaviour as it seems to me much of it is gossip, rumour, myth and hearsay.  I could just as easily make negative comments re JM and AE's behaviour eg JM leaving the morgue dried eyed especially given four days earlier Colin Caffell stated that she put the twins to bed and read them a bedtime story  8(8-))  Also AE happy to take up residence at WHF a place where her aunt and family were brutally murdered  8(8-))

 
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?

Offline John

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #28 on: February 24, 2014, 03:32:39 PM »
Due to the way the Soc was treated eg buckets of blood stained clothing removed without analysis along with a pair of slippers, carpets destroyed etc we do not have the full picture.

I would not want to rely on anything put forward re JB's behaviour as it seems to me much of it is gossip, rumour, myth and hearsay.  I could just as easily make negative comments re JM and AE's behaviour eg JM leaving the morgue dried eyed especially given four days earlier Colin Caffell stated that she put the twins to bed and read them a bedtime story  8(8-))  Also AE happy to take up residence at WHF a place where her aunt and family were brutally murdered  8(8-))

 

The SOC was fully documented.  Remind me, wasn't it Jeremy who asked the police to clean up?
A malicious prosecution for a crime which never existed. An exposé of egregious malfeasance by public officials.
Indeed, the truth never changes with the passage of time.

Offline Holly Goodhead

Re: Jeremy's Court of Appeal hearings and submissions to CCRC
« Reply #29 on: February 24, 2014, 03:39:52 PM »
The SOC was fully documented.  Remind me, wasn't it Jeremy who asked the police to clean up?

The police asked JB's permission to destroy carpets but as per AE's wit stats the blood stained clothing left to soak in buckets was removed by AE and some slippers also removed.
Just my opinion of course but Jeremy Bamber is innocent and a couple from UK, unknown to T9, abducted Madeleine McCann - motive unknown.  Was J J murdered as a result of identifying as a goth?