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Disappeared and Abducted Children and Young Adults => Madeleine McCann (3) disappeared from her parent's holiday apartment at Ocean Club, Praia da Luz, Portugal on 3 May 2007. No trace of her has ever been found. => Topic started by: Holly Goodhead on July 12, 2019, 11:12:44 AM
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Assuming MM was abducted and the abductor(s) intended to raise her or sell her to a childless couple for raising would it be possible for MM to live a 'normal' life ie attend family gatherings, school etc?
How easy or difficult would it be to create false docs eg birth cert and passport? Bearing in mind bizarrely the abductors might not be criminally minded.
It's easy to think MM is still a hot topic, just because we're here discussing the case, but in reality most people do not wake up every morning thinking about MM. In reality the MM story is yesterday's news until such time a significant development takes place. And what exactly are the levels of awareness outside Portugal and UK? Eg recently interviewed Robbyn Swan said awareness in US is low.
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Anythings possible,but that supposes Madeleine is alive and well,something which is not confirmed,the digs in 2014 suggest's the MET don't think so.
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Anyone seen the true film 'I know my name is Stephen' Abductor snatched a boy six year old, took him miles from home, dyed and cut his hair only changed his first name and they lived as a family for years abductor told him his family didn't want him and that they weren't looking for him. Abductor told the school he was adopted so when Stephen tried to tell a teacher the abductor wasn't his father, they presumed he meant he was adopted and didn't give him a chance to explain anything. Years later the abductor decided to snatch another boy and Stephen helped him escape took him to the Police station, was going to leave him there but the Police saw him and he told them he knew his name was Stephen and told his story.
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Anyone seen the true film 'I know my name is Stephen' Abductor snatched a boy six year old, took him miles from home, dyed and cut his hair only changed his first name and they lived as a family for years abductor told him his family didn't want him and that they weren't looking for him. Abductor told the school he was adopted so when Stephen tried to tell a teacher the abductor wasn't his father, they presumed he meant he was adopted and didn't give him a chance to explain anything. Years later the abductor decided to snatch another boy and Stephen helped him escape took him to the Police station, was going to leave him there but the Police saw him and he told them he knew his name was Stephen and told his story.
No.
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Anythings possible,but that supposes Madeleine is alive and well,something which is not confirmed,the digs in 2014 suggest's the MET don't think so.
Yes that's why I started the OP with the word 'Assuming...'.
If the MET know where MM is we wouldn't still be discussing the case.
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Anyone seen the true film 'I know my name is Stephen' Abductor snatched a boy six year old, took him miles from home, dyed and cut his hair only changed his first name and they lived as a family for years abductor told him his family didn't want him and that they weren't looking for him. Abductor told the school he was adopted so when Stephen tried to tell a teacher the abductor wasn't his father, they presumed he meant he was adopted and didn't give him a chance to explain anything. Years later the abductor decided to snatch another boy and Stephen helped him escape took him to the Police station, was going to leave him there but the Police saw him and he told them he knew his name was Stephen and told his story.
But this dates back to the 70's when the world was a much bigger place so to speak:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner
Thanks for highlighting tho'.
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Yes that's why I started the OP with the word 'Assuming...'.
If the MET know where MM is we wouldn't still be discussing the case.
Ok,lets see if we can get past Pedro Do Carmo,in answer to a question do you accept the girl was abducted,his reply was"we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for different scenarios"
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Yes that's why I started the OP with the word 'Assuming...'.
If the MET know where MM is we wouldn't still be discussing the case.
Might be well outside their jurisdiction and they may only have suspicions, rather than absolute proof.
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Ok,lets see if we can get past Pedro Do Carmo,in answer to a question do you accept the girl was abducted,his reply was"we don't know what happened and have to be prepared for different scenarios"
How does the above relate to the thread title/question?
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Might be well outside their jurisdiction and they may only have suspicions, rather than absolute proof.
How does the above relate to the thread title and question?
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But this dates back to the 70's when the world was a much bigger place so to speak:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner
Thanks for highlighting tho'.
Yes that's true, but look how easy it was for the abductor, everyone believed him.
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How does the above relate to the thread title/question?
Start at first base,was there an abduction? the rest is noise.
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But this dates back to the 70's when the world was a much bigger place so to speak:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steven_Stayner
Thanks for highlighting tho'.
It's sometimes does seem incredible what can be happening in a neighbourhood without anyone noticing or taking action.
People can often choose not to question what can be very irregular behaviour.
The Turpin case in America highlights this.
And this case, although spanning decades was very much of this time.
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Yes that's true, but look how easy it was for the abductor, everyone believed him.
Yes a point made by Ian Horrocks:
"People generally accept what they are told by others, and are not naturally disbelieving".
https://www.bgpglobalservices.com/happened-madeleine-mccann-2/
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Start at first base,was there an abduction? the rest is noise.
Other than MM and any perp(s) no one knows the rest is noise.
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How does the above relate to the thread title and question?
It was a direct answer to your post 4, so if off topic then so was yours. I expect you to delete both
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It's sometimes does seem incredible what can be happening in a neighbourhood without anyone noticing or taking action.
People can often choose not to question what can be very irregular behaviour.
The Turpin case in America highlights this.
And this case, although spanning decades was very much of this time.
OMG I just remembered the case of Anna Fritzl. I remember at the time I visited my dad and a daily paper was on the kitchen table, I started reading it and my dad advised me not to because it was so horrible.
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It was a direct answer to your post 4, so if off topic then so was yours. I expect you to delete both
I will delete neither but going forward I will 8((()*/
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Coloboma isn't that rare.
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Coloboma isn't that rare.
But as I understand it Coloboma presents more vividly in some than others? Does it remain constant throughout life? Could it be overcome with maybe a contact lens? And if you look at some images of MM it's not even noticeable? Maybe the iconic image of MM we are all familiar with was not typical of how the condition presented on first meeting her and just put forward to assist in the early days in identifying her?
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But as I understand it Coloboma presents more vividly in some than others? Does it remain constant throughout life? Could it be overcome with maybe a contact lens? And if you look at some images of MM it's not even noticeable? Maybe the iconic image of MM we are all familiar with was not typical of how the condition presented on first meeting her and just put forward to assist in the early days in identifying her?
That has been a point I have often wanted to discuss, as " the iconic image of MM we are all familiar with" IMO and from analysis done by me is not actually Madeleine McCann.
It seems to have been a photo that John Corner released to Sky News on the 4th may 2007 and has been going around forever since.
IMO this person is not Madeleine McCann. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4tUin4LdjqcwMAW91UVmD-l1Apr84gcPAm-PfYEinrx9S6g-AYA) and ones like that.
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Does anyone have access to facial recognition technology. Can the faces compared be in the form of photos?
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That has been a point I have often wanted to discuss, as " the iconic image of MM we are all familiar with" IMO and from analysis done by me is not actually Madeleine McCann.
It seems to have been a photo that John Corner released to Sky News on the 4th may 2007 and has been going around forever since.
IMO this person is not Madeleine McCann. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4tUin4LdjqcwMAW91UVmD-l1Apr84gcPAm-PfYEinrx9S6g-AYA) and ones like that.
Well I don't know about that *%87
The image I refer to as iconic appears on the front cover of KM's book but if you look at the images of MM within the book the coloboma is not as noticeable.
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Does anyone have access to facial recognition technology. Can the faces compared be in the form of photos?
Only back at CIA HQ ?>)()<
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Only back at CIA HQ ?>)()<
That will do.
(https://cdn1.tvnz.co.nz/content/dam/images/news/2014/07/01/madeleine-mccann.jpg.hashed.78e6bf59.desktop.story.right.jpg)
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This photo is the true MM.
Now if these two girls can be mixed up by the parents how is anyone else going to tell them apart?
(https://shakedowntitle.files.wordpress.com/2017/05/image004-1.jpg)
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Yes that's true, but look how easy it was for the abductor, everyone believed him.
As has been mentioned, it was the 70's, everyone was too busy freebasing Ajax to get too excited.
Seriously though, it was exponentially easier to disappear or be disappeared back then.
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That has been a point I have often wanted to discuss, as " the iconic image of MM we are all familiar with" IMO and from analysis done by me is not actually Madeleine McCann.
It seems to have been a photo that John Corner released to Sky News on the 4th may 2007 and has been going around forever since.
IMO this person is not Madeleine McCann. (https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ4tUin4LdjqcwMAW91UVmD-l1Apr84gcPAm-PfYEinrx9S6g-AYA) and ones like that.
Sorry Rob, but I think this is a photo of Madeleine.
You cannot judge when comparing to a photo of her smiling.
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Sorry Rob, but I think this is a photo of Madeleine.
You cannot judge when comparing to a photo of her smiling.
Totally agree with you Sadie...deffo Maddie.
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Assuming MM was abducted and the abductor(s) intended to raise her or sell her to a childless couple for raising would it be possible for MM to live a 'normal' life ie attend family gatherings, school etc?
How easy or difficult would it be to create false docs eg birth cert and passport? Bearing in mind bizarrely the abductors might not be criminally minded.
It's easy to think MM is still a hot topic, just because we're here discussing the case, but in reality most people do not wake up every morning thinking about MM. In reality the MM story is yesterday's news until such time a significant development takes place. And what exactly are the levels of awareness outside Portugal and UK? Eg recently interviewed Robbyn Swan said awareness in US is low.
Depends on what you countenance as living a normal life as this means different things to different people. In places like the Middle and Far East, girls are hidden away and are only seen by close relatives. On the other hand Maddie couldn't live a normal life in the western world unless her facial features were permanently altered. Possible but unlikely imo.
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Coloboma isn't that rare.
It's not actually a Coloboma. One of my grandsons has something similar and he was at least four years old before I even noticed.
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I have long had this theory that Madeleine was abducted for a couple who already had a passport for their own dead child.
I have mentioned it before. Everyone laughed, of course.
But Brazil is looking good to me.
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Sorry Rob, but I think this is a photo of Madeleine.
You cannot judge when comparing to a photo of her smiling.
Agreed. That is her.
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I have long had this theory that Madeleine was abducted for a couple who already had a passport for their own dead child.
I have mentioned it before. Everyone laughed, of course.
But Brazil is looking good to me.
Madeleine's photo is her as a baby on her passport. All they needed was a baby's face who would know.
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Yes that's true, but look how easy it was for the abductor, everyone believed him.
Had you ever heard of Stephen out-with the film ?
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Had you ever heard of Stephen out-with the film ?
Don't know what you mean sorry.
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Don't know what you mean sorry.
Before you watched the film had you ever heard of Stephen? How well known was he by the general public ?
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Before you watched the film had you ever heard of Stephen? How well known was he by the general public ?
No I hadn't heard of Stephen he went missing in America in the 70's.
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I have long had this theory that Madeleine was abducted for a couple who already had a passport for their own dead child.
I have mentioned it before. Everyone laughed, of course.
But Brazil is looking good to me.
Well do you think the replacement child needs to look somewhat similar to the one that was lost?
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Well do you think the replacement child needs to look somewhat similar to the one that was lost?
Somewhat. But children do change rapidly at that age.
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Somewhat. But children do change rapidly at that age.
And this rapid change would work both ways. If this were the case, then the child must have passed away very recently - within weeks. So this decision and subsequent planning would need to be very quick.
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Somewhat. But children do change rapidly at that age.
Well 3 or 4 posters disagreed with my analysis that the first photo ever shown on media (Sky News) was not Madeleine but someone who looked like her. Could John Corner not have just made a simple error and pulled up the wrong photo from his collection?
What changes?
IMO both Gerry and Madeleine have a line on the face that runs parallel to the sides of the nose, is it called a smile line or a cheek line. A lot of us have them, but some don't. Once you have it you can't get rid of it.
This linked photo describes them as "smile lines" (https://cdn1.medicalnewstoday.com/content/images/hero/320/320825/320825_1100.jpg)
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Well 3 or 4 posters disagreed with my analysis that the first photo ever shown on media (Sky News) was not Madeleine but someone who looked like her. Could John Corner not have just made a simple error and pulled up the wrong photo from his collection?
What changes?
IMO both Gerry and Madeleine have a line on the face that runs parallel to the sides of the nose, is it called a smile line or a cheek line. A lot of us have them, but some don't. Once you have it you can't get rid of it.
This linked photo describes them as "smile lines" (https://cdn1.medicalnewstoday.com/content/images/hero/320/320825/320825_1100.jpg)
Dude, babies don't have smile lines. Adults do.
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Well 3 or 4 posters disagreed with my analysis that the first photo ever shown on media (Sky News) was not Madeleine but someone who looked like her. Could John Corner not have just made a simple error and pulled up the wrong photo from his collection?
What changes?
IMO both Gerry and Madeleine have a line on the face that runs parallel to the sides of the nose, is it called a smile line or a cheek line. A lot of us have them, but some don't. Once you have it you can't get rid of it.
This linked photo describes them as "smile lines" (https://cdn1.medicalnewstoday.com/content/images/hero/320/320825/320825_1100.jpg)
Why has that woman got a hair bobble stuck to her face?
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Why has that woman got a hair bobble stuck to her face?
Trying to contain her moustache.
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Dude, babies don't have smile lines. Adults do.
Look at the photos of Madeleine and she has them, to pool photo, the tennis ball photo, the one on her bike . She is nearly 4 years old, not a baby. I'm not even sure babies couldn't be born with smile lines.
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Look at the photos of Madeleine and she has them, to pool photo, the tennis ball photo, the one on her bike . She is nearly 4 years old, not a baby. I'm not even sure babies couldn't be born with smile lines.
I'm willing to double down on my Woolies window on this one Rob. For all the conjecture and conspiracy BS regarding these pictures, this one is the least contentious. In my opinion.
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I'm willing to double down on my Woolies window on this one Rob. For all the conjecture and conspiracy BS regarding these pictures, this one is the least contentious. In my opinion.
So are you saying I could be right?
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So are you saying I could be right?
Least contentious as in, most genuine.
I think it's her. Sounds weird this, but she's got her mother's mouth.......
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Look at the photos of Madeleine and she has them, to pool photo, the tennis ball photo, the one on her bike . She is nearly 4 years old, not a baby. I'm not even sure babies couldn't be born with smile lines.
(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/newborn-baby-yawning-picture-id692945198?s=612x612) looks like smile lines to me.
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(https://media.gettyimages.com/photos/newborn-baby-yawning-picture-id692945198?s=612x612) looks like smile lines to me.
They're just natural creases. Laughter lines develop over many years.
Stop Googling images of little children, ffs, we'll all be in trouble.
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Least contentious as in, most genuine.
I think it's her. Sounds weird this, but she's got her mother's mouth.......
I think I'll ask for a cite on that one You think you can see Kate's mouth in the first photo of Madeleine? Prove it!
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I think I'll ask for a cite on that one You think you can see Kate's mouth in the first photo of Madeleine? Prove it!
Jesus. Do you want one with the sneer or without?
(https://cdn.extra.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/04/04103514/madeleine-mccann-kate-and-gerry-feature-1068x623.jpg)
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Jesus. Do you want one with the sneer or without?
Yes, whatever you can do to prove your point, as I'm not as observant as you obviously.
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Yes, whatever you can do to prove your point, as I'm not as observant as you obviously.
Look at the nose and nostrils. Exactly the same as her mam in your non-picture.
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They're just natural creases. Laughter lines develop over many years.
Stop Googling images of little children, ffs, we'll all be in trouble.
Those natural creases are the ones I'm talking about, so they are not laughter lines but so far the best description were "smile line", but I'd accept "cheek line".
(https://www.highya.com/ckfinder/userfiles/images/2017-1-2_4.jpg)
In the above photo they are called "nasolabial folds".
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(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article14994787.ece/ALTERNATES/s458/1_PAY-MAIN-THP_CHPp_040519SLUG_6501JPG.jpg)
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(https://i2-prod.mirror.co.uk/incoming/article14994787.ece/ALTERNATES/s458/1_PAY-MAIN-THP_CHPp_040519SLUG_6501JPG.jpg)
I appreciate that attempt but you got the photo wrong. You used the one that was on the cover of Kate's book not the one that appeared on Sky News on the 4th.
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No I hadn't heard of Stephen he went missing in America in the 70's.
So not exactly a good comparison to Madeleine..the most famous missing child in the world.
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I have long had this theory that Madeleine was abducted for a couple who already had a passport for their own dead child.
I have mentioned it before. Everyone laughed, of course.
But Brazil is looking good to me.
Brazil looks pretty good to me as well. Madeleine was spotted in Aregua in the suburbs of Ascuncion. I was well interested in Ascuncion a long time before we found out that there was a sighting there.
However, there are several other places that interest me, too. Places where she could be hidden away easier than some other places. Places that have connections to the man that I am interested in and to groups that may well be into organised abduction, child or adult.
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Here is a better picture describing the features of the face.
(https://media.springernature.com/original/springer-static/image/chp%3A10.1007%2F978-981-10-0240-3_2/MediaObjects/340412_1_En_2_Fig1_HTML.gif)
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Brazil looks pretty good to me as well. Madeleine was spotted in Aregua in the suburbs of Ascuncion. I was well interested in Ascuncion a long time before we found out that there was a sighting there.
However, there are several other places that interest me, too. Places where she could be hidden away easier than some other places. Places that have connections to the man that I am interested in and to groups that may well be into organised abduction, child or adult.
Aregua has nothing to do with Brazil imo. It's in Paraguay.
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I would say Madeleine McCann has "horizontal infraorbital wrinkles" but the first photo purported to be Madeleine McCann has none.
(https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-U3CObI_MBLs/WINok9Gs5cI/AAAAAAAAM3c/bMgYxH5jnZgJZ4XyiFHlrkybiPal9SFegCLcB/s640/mbm%2Btennis%2Bballs%2Bphoto.jpg)
Sky News photo: https://youtu.be/FX3u2Hp42ic?t=292 Not quite the still photo I want.
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Here it is the first photo of Madeleine McCann on Sky News. Unfortunately there is no proof that it is Madeleine McCann. https://youtu.be/RazOGuQ_r8E?t=332
She is showing no sign of the characteristic nasolabial fold, nor the horizontal infraorbital wrinkles characteristic of Madeleine McCann. Hence IMO I cannot accept that it is Madeleine.
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Aregua has nothing to do with Brazil imo. It's in Paraguay.
Quibble, quibble, quibble. Its the same continent, for goodness sake - isn't that near enough for you? @)(++(*
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Quibble, quibble, quibble. Its the same continent, for goodness sake - isn't that near enough for you? @)(++(*
Yeh but,Portuguese is not the official tongue.
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Yeh but,Portuguese is not the official tongue.
Ah yes, its the detail that spoils even the best thought out story.
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A lovely photo
https://i3.wp.com/www.shared.com/content/images/2018/02/9fd9c0eb8bc5b84d1879571ba0ee2f25.jpeg
OK the folds aren't that noticeable, but they are still visible.
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A lovely photo
https://i3.wp.com/www.shared.com/content/images/2018/02/9fd9c0eb8bc5b84d1879571ba0ee2f25.jpeg
OK the folds aren't that noticeable, but they are still visible.
what right does this forum have posting images of the twins
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what right does this forum have posting images of the twins
None. Not exactly a recent picture, but think it's out of order.
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None. Not exactly a recent picture, but think it's out of order.
I assume this photo is already in the public domain, so if freely available online, what's the problem ?
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I assume this photo is already in the public domain, so if freely available online, what's the problem ?
It obviously is, but I just have a problem with total strangers posting or re-posting pictures of other people's kids in general.
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It obviously is, but I just have a problem with total strangers posting or re-posting pictures of other people's kids in general.
OK, but surely the principal problem is with the persons who put the photo(s) in the public domain in the first place.
I wouldn't put any personal picture on the web, but my granddaughter aged 12 is up there, thanks to her mother.
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OK, but surely the principal problem is with the persons who put the photo(s) in the public domain in the first place.
I wouldn't put any personal picture on the web, but my granddaughter aged 12 is up there, thanks to her mother.
Yes, the picture going up to begin with is the problem. Who posted that originally?
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Yes, the picture going up to begin with is the problem. Who posted that originally?
It doesn't have to be continually reposted... It's a gross invasion of privacy.. It's nothing to do with the twins
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It doesn't have to be continually reposted... It's a gross invasion of privacy.. It's nothing to do with the twins
I agreed earlier.
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It doesn't have to be continually reposted... It's a gross invasion of privacy.. It's nothing to do with the twins
I think you exaggerate.
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It doesn't have to be continually reposted... It's a gross invasion of privacy.. It's nothing to do with the twins
I’d wholeheartedly agree...why then did the parents mention Sean on the steps of the Lisbon court ? I can imagine the stick he got at school the next day.
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I’d wholeheartedly agree...why then did the parents mention Sean on the steps of the Lisbon court ? I can imagine the stick he got at school the next day.
Because they hate him and want to suffer I expect.
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I assume this photo is already in the public domain, so if freely available online, what's the problem ?
Well it was, it comes up among the photos for Madeleine McCann, I didn't have to pay for it.
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Well it was, it comes up among the photos for Madeleine McCann, I didn't have to pay for it.
there are plenty of photos of children in the public domain...that you dont have to pay for....but I think its not right to post pictures of other peoples children on the net
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It obviously is, but I just have a problem with total strangers posting or re-posting pictures of other people's kids in general.
Good point. Who point them out there in the first place?
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Good point. Who point them out there in the first place?
Exactly,what was the purpose.
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Good point. Who point them out there in the first place?
its no excuse Rob...reposting them isnt right
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its no excuse Rob...reposting them isnt right
Are they copyrighted?
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Yes, the picture going up to begin with is the problem. Who posted that originally?
Well somehow I was able to prove that the original Sky News photo was part of the video clip and that was released by John Corner. I couldn't give you the cite for that off the top of my head but no doubt if we searched "John Corner" on this forum we would be reminded of the source. One thing is certain IMO it wasn't given to Sky News by Madeleine McCann parents they were tied up in PdL.
its no excuse Rob...reposting them isnt right
Basically I was looking for the original of the poster being held aloft by Philomena McCann (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zsC2H9orbHM/WwV1CfOu5xI/AAAAAAAAZbE/lQhhLcdv05Undx4sHvllyj6D47rBZH9UwCEwYBhgL/s1600/PHILOMENA%2BMCCANN%2B02.jpg)
Are they copyrighted?
Not that I'm aware of. Are you?
Exactly,what was the purpose.
To tell the general public what Madeleine McCann looked like.
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Well somehow I was able to prove that the original Sky News photo was part of the video clip and that was released by John Corner. I couldn't give you the cite for that off the top of my head but no doubt if we searched "John Corner" on this forum we would be reminded of the source. One thing is certain IMO it wasn't given to Sky News by Madeleine McCann parents they were tied up in PdL.
Basically I was looking for the original of the poster being held aloft by Philomena McCann (https://1.bp.blogspot.com/-zsC2H9orbHM/WwV1CfOu5xI/AAAAAAAAZbE/lQhhLcdv05Undx4sHvllyj6D47rBZH9UwCEwYBhgL/s1600/PHILOMENA%2BMCCANN%2B02.jpg)
Not that I'm aware of. Are you?
To tell the general public what Madeleine McCann looked like.
The twins were used for that?
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The twins were used for that?
It was from the photo that had the other two in it. I was principally interested to see how much the lines on Madeleine's face had been "air brushed" out of the poster photo. I wasn't certain in the end.
there are plenty of photos of children in the public domain...that you dont have to pay for....but I think its not right to post pictures of other peoples children on the net
It would be up to Parliament to determine what is right and what isn't. Are you aware of what that law is called?
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Yes, the picture going up to begin with is the problem. Who posted that originally?
As I said before that the original Sky News photo was part of the video clip and that was released by Jon Corner. One thing is certain IMO it wasn't given to Sky News by Madeleine McCann parents they were tied up in PdL.
Now I submit it was possible that there was an error made by Jon Corner. Did he release the wrong video footage?
I have not seen or heard of an explanation from the McCanns re the origin of the video clip.
I think the correct spelling of John Corner is Jon Corner.
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It was from the photo that had the other two in it. I was principally interested to see how much the lines on Madeleine's face had been "air brushed" out of the poster photo. I wasn't certain in the end.
It would be up to Parliament to determine what is right and what isn't. Are you aware of what that law is called?
It's a moral question... Certainly if you take photos at school events the school takes a dim view of posting photos of other children online... As it should be.. Imo
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Of course they sanctioned some themselves,like the one of them grinning like Cheshire cats with the twins in some sort of booth
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=mccann+photoshoot+2007&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=firefox-b-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaobWSvrLjAhWSUBUIHYC3DyQQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1312&bih=762#imgrc=Hx8Do3aSeusRxM:
And before anyone complains, I have posted the link, not the photo.
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Of course they sanctioned some themselves,like the one of them grinning like Cheshire cats with the twins in some sort of booth
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=mccann+photoshoot+2007&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=firefox-b-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaobWSvrLjAhWSUBUIHYC3DyQQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1312&bih=762#imgrc=Hx8Do3aSeusRxM:
And before anyone complains, I have posted the link, not the photo.
I won't complain, I just don't believe in posting images of anyone's kids online. I include Facebook, etc in that.
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its no excuse Rob...reposting them isnt right
I remember misty posted a photograph of Sean as a teenager some time ago. I didn’t hear any supporter complain then.
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It's a moral question... Certainly if you take photos at school events the school takes a dim view of posting photos of other children online... As it should be.. Imo
'I'm using these photos for identification purposes only.
My logic is if there is a photo of a girl said to be Madeleine and the twin siblings are in it then it is highly likely the girl in the photo is Madeleine.
I will then take the ratio of distance between facial features to establish the normal proportions for Madeleine using the same ratios found in the twins.
I will then take the proportions of the same features of the
1. Philomena poster
2. The book cover photo,
3. and the girl in the "Snow White " costume
Using these ratios I will determine whether (#3) could possibly be Madeleine McCann.
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This might be the article others were talking about, the new unofficial age progressed images...
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/maddie-mccanns-parents-agony-over-14971043
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Aregua has nothing to do with Brazil imo. It's in Paraguay.
Absolutely correct Gunit. My bad
Anyway the important thing about Ascuncion is that it sits on a major trafficking and vast river called the river Paraguay (and other names). As it flows to the sea, it passes through Encarnacao, which is in Braziil
So it would be very easy for traffickers to transport Madeleine from an ocean port up to Ascuncion . There are other things apart fromm the sighting that make Ascuncion interesting.
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Of course they sanctioned some themselves,like the one of them grinning like Cheshire cats with the twins in some sort of booth
https://www.google.com/search?safe=off&q=mccann+photoshoot+2007&tbm=isch&source=univ&client=firefox-b-d&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjaobWSvrLjAhWSUBUIHYC3DyQQsAR6BAgEEAE&biw=1312&bih=762#imgrc=Hx8Do3aSeusRxM:
And before anyone complains, I have posted the link, not the photo.
These are the parents who Lace claims went to Rome so the twins didn’t see them upset.
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I remember misty posted a photograph of Sean as a teenager some time ago. I didn’t hear any supporter complain then.
47,000 followers of a certain Facebook page can still see that photo, Faith, despite objections from both camps.
Maybe it's not Sean.....
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47,000 followers of a certain Facebook page can still see that photo, Faith, despite objections from both camps.
Maybe it's not Sean.....
But you posted it on the presumption that it was Sean, that’s what matters.
I had never seen the photo until you posted it as I’m sure neither had many who read or post here and you did it simply to prove a point. That’s inexcusable.
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But you posted it on the presumption that it was Sean, that’s what matters.
I had never seen the photo until you posted it as I’m sure neither had many who read or post here and you did it simply to prove a point. That’s inexcusable.
Yes, I did prove a point which you failed to acknowledge, You also failed to provide proof of the claims you made about Amaral's children's privacy being invaded in the same fashion, or indeed in any way at all. That was more inexcusable as it was a fabrication.
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Yes, I did prove a point which you failed to acknowledge, You also failed to provide proof of the claims you made about Amaral's children's privacy being invaded in the same fashion, or indeed in any way at all. That was more inexcusable as it was a fabrication.
Yes you did prove a point...you proved that your need to be right was more important than Sean’s right to privacy.
As to Amaral’s children I have never made any such claims so really feel no need to provide proof.
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Yes you did prove a point...you proved that your need to be right was more important than Sean’s right to privacy.
As to Amaral’s children I have never made any such claims so really feel no need to provide proof.
Actually you did make such a claim which is why the whole episode came about. However, it's not worth my time or effort trawling back through your posts to find the relevant one to prove another point. Your habit of repeating this photo issue as a slur on my character is tedious & borderline offensive, to say the least. Try taking the matter up with Facebook instead.
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Absolutely correct Gunit. My bad
Anyway the important thing about Ascuncion is that it sits on a major trafficking and vast river called the river Paraguay (and other names). As it flows to the sea, it passes through Encarnacao, which is in Braziil
So it would be very easy for traffickers to transport Madeleine from an ocean port up to Ascuncion . There are other things apart fromm the sighting that make Ascuncion interesting.
Hopefully you'll forgive my reluctance to give credence to your (imo) wild theories. The only basis for them is the idea that Madeleine had a special bloodline and I've seen nothing to suggest that's true.
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Absolutely correct Gunit. My bad
Anyway the important thing about Ascuncion is that it sits on a major trafficking and vast river called the river Paraguay (and other names). As it flows to the sea, it passes through Encarnacao, which is in Braziil
So it would be very easy for traffickers to transport Madeleine from an ocean port up to Ascuncion . There are other things apart fromm the sighting that make Ascuncion interesting.
Just for arguments sake,if Jack Slipper couldn't get an escaped prisoner from Wandsworth back from Brazil,just what in the dickens does one supposes Nicola Wall is able to do.
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Absolutely correct Gunit. My bad
Anyway the important thing about Ascuncion is that it sits on a major trafficking and vast river called the river Paraguay (and other names). As it flows to the sea, it passes through Encarnacao, which is in Braziil
So it would be very easy for traffickers to transport Madeleine from an ocean port up to Ascuncion . There are other things apart fromm the sighting that make Ascuncion interesting.
When I look at these cases I like to think I am absolutely ruthless separating the wheat from the chaff.
Why/how would anyone abduct a child from Portugal, a country said child had been in as a visitor for a little over 5 days, only to then take on board a load of hassle and risk in transporting her to Central/South America?
Central and South America are among the most dangerous contries in the world. Regardless of this fact British and European families holiday there, visit friends and family, work there etc, etc so if for whatever reason a South/Central American individual/gang wanted a blue eyed and fair skinned young girl why not abduct from their own turf?
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When I look at these cases I like to think I am absolutely ruthless separating the wheat from the chaff.
Why/how would anyone abduct a child from Portugal, a country said child had been in as a visitor for a little over 5 days, only to then take on board a load of hassle and risk in transporting her to Central/South America?
Central and South America are among the most dangerous contries in the world. Regardless of this fact British and European families holiday there, visit friends and family, work there etc, etc so if for whatever reason a South/Central American individual/gang wanted a blue eyed and fair skinned young girl why not abduct from their own turf?
Because they were living in Portugal at the time?
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Just for arguments sake,if Jack Slipper couldn't get an escaped prisoner from Wandsworth back from Brazil,just what in the dickens does one supposes Nicola Wall is able to do.
This would always be a bit difficult. Hence the delay perhaps.
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This would always be a bit difficult. Hence the delay perhaps.
Its not an investigation in that case.
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Its not an investigation in that case.
Of course it is. Track down and then watch to see what can be done legally and within the bounds of Brazilian Law.
Unless you think that snatching a child or young person off the streets is acceptable.
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Because they were living in Portugal at the time?
Ok were they staying somewhere they could see T9's comings and goings at night? If not I doubt it.
I don't believe OC/MW employees were involved either as its extremely unlikely they would know apartment was unlocked. Most would not take the risk of forcing entry and there's no evidence this happened. Taking keys without permission doesn't add up when it just so happens that MM was imo abducted from an apartment that all concerned agree was unlocked.
Likewise the reservation booking at tapas stated T9 wanted to be close to the children for checking nothing about an unlocked door. And this applies to the likes of JW/BO whereby GM shared knowledge of his nighttime "childcare arrangement" he did not say we enter via the unlocked patio door.
The perp imo was someone who knew they could gain entry via the unlocked patio door and this narrows the field considerably.
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Of course it is. Track down and then watch to see what can be done legally and within the bounds of Brazilian Law.
This is the responsibility of SY because?
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This is the responsibility of SY because?
Interesting.
Its not really clear exactly the responsibility of SY is as regards 'recovering' Madeleine, their remit being to investigate her disappearance.
Outside the UK, their jurisdiction is zilch, so covert operations would be a no no in a foreign country.
Extradition, if that is the correct term for these circumstances, would not be their responsibility, but rather that of lawyers.
IMO
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Interesting.
Its not really clear exactly the responsibility of SY is as regards 'recovering' Madeleine, their remit being to investigate her disappearance.
Outside the UK, their jurisdiction is zilch, so covert operations would be a no no in a foreign country.
Extradition, if that is the correct term for these circumstances, would not be their responsibility, but rather that of lawyers.
IMO
If and its one mighty if,Madeleine was trafficked,interpol would be the go to,imo.SY investigating this in any country is a no no,once again imo.They are helping the PJ investigate what happened in Portugal,nothing to suggest otherwise.
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If and its one mighty if,Madeleine was trafficked,interpol would be the go to,imo.SY investigating this in any country is a no no,once again imo.They are helping the PJ investigate what happened in Portugal,nothing to suggest otherwise.
Yes, its essentially a desk-bound investigation.
I know they have had a few visits, armed with copious files, and dug a few holes here and there at one point and deployed a dog or two, but any questioning of people in Portugal was done through the auspices of the Portuguese judiciary. It would be the same if they were questioning people in any other country.
All IMO
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Actually you did make such a claim which is why the whole episode came about. However, it's not worth my time or effort trawling back through your posts to find the relevant one to prove another point. Your habit of repeating this photo issue as a slur on my character is tedious & borderline offensive, to say the least. Try taking the matter up with Facebook instead.
If you think I made those claims then it’s up to you to prove them. You can’t simply accuse another member of something then fail to provide proof. That is against forum rules.
As to issues of an offensive nature, it was offensive of you to post a photograph on a public forum of someone you though was Sean and which identified him. This was certainly against his parents wishes and also against common sense. You identified the child for no other reason than to prove your point with no consideration for the consequences and it is not you who should be offended by that but Sean and his family who you showed scant regard for.
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Ok were they staying somewhere they could see T9's comings and goings at night? If not I doubt it.
I don't believe OC/MW employees were involved either as its extremely unlikely they would know apartment was unlocked. Most would not take the risk of forcing entry and there's no evidence this happened. Taking keys without permission doesn't add up when it just so happens that MM was imo abducted from an apartment that all concerned agree was unlocked.
Likewise the reservation booking at tapas stated T9 wanted to be close to the children for checking nothing about an unlocked door. And this applies to the likes of JW/BO whereby GM shared knowledge of his nighttime "childcare arrangement" he did not say we enter via the unlocked patio door.
The perp imo was someone who knew they could gain entry via the unlocked patio door and this narrows the field considerably.
I believe, and in my opinion that, the couple who now have Madeleine, were not the people who abducted her. And might not even know who this child is, if Madeleine was immediately taken out to sea, having been handed over by The Abductor.
I do have opinions about who The Abductors were, but these would not be acceptable on this Forum at the moment.
I remain totally gob smacked by the nastiness. But I ever remain hopeful that I can deal with this.
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Yes, its essentially a desk-bound investigation.
I know they have had a few visits, armed with copious files, and dug a few holes here and there at one point and deployed a dog or two, but any questioning of people in Portugal was done through the auspices of the Portuguese judiciary. It would be the same if they were questioning people in any other country.
All IMO
Not in Brazil unless you are Mossad and seeking almost dead Nazis for justice. In the movies that is the case- it is make believe and it should be pointed out that SY are not world police and can't just step into another country ,a really vast, country to search out a family who stole a child. NOT even MBM as she is recognised as a special case in some folks eyes.
The theory is a fantasy too many for me.
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This is the responsibility of SY because?
It isn't the responsibility of Scotland Yard. But Madeleine McCann remains a British Citizen lost abroad. This is the responsibility of The British Government who promise the right of passage by the right of Passport to travel freely and without hindrance.
This is why The Home Office is paying for the ongoing investigation.
I restrict myself from saying anything further to your spurious comment. Perhaps you should do the same.
You think I haven't noticed that you could be stalking me?
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When I look at these cases I like to think I am absolutely ruthless separating the wheat from the chaff.
Why/how would anyone abduct a child from Portugal, a country said child had been in as a visitor for a little over 5 days, only to then take on board a load of hassle and risk in transporting her to Central/South America?
Central and South America are among the most dangerous contries in the world. Regardless of this fact British and European families holiday there, visit friends and family, work there etc, etc so if for whatever reason a South/Central American individual/gang wanted a blue eyed and fair skinned young girl why not abduct from their own turf?
The bloodline of say, Jesus, Mary Magdeleine, or John the baptist etc. would be immeasurably precious to some people.
To be saved at all costs.
In Madeleines case she already has the one name. Historically, they couldn't spell remember.
Madeleine = Magdeleine.
This is just a theory remember but it is intriguing ... and with all the meticulous planning and watching that appears to have happened could well be true. Madeleine appears to have been targetted.
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The bloodline of say, Jesus, Mary Magdeleine, or John the baptist etc. would be immeasurably precious to some people.
To be saved at all costs.
In Madeleines case she already has the one name. Historically, they couldn't spell remember.
Madeleine = Magdeleine.
This is just a theory remember but it is intriguing ... and with all the meticulous planning and watching that appears to have happened could well be true. Madeleine appears to have been targetted.
But why would that bloodline come through Gerry McCann?
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I'm still picking Madeleine has been taken in a child replacement scenario.
In my theory the deceased child was left in the apartment and later retrieved, so that left cadaver odour and foreign DNA in the McCann's apartment.
So whoever lost a child at PdL or even at the OC that night are the parents who have her today.
Someone known to the McCanns IMO is the link between the McCann family and this other family. Maybe both sets of parents don't know each other but have someone known in common.
Does SY know the current whereabouts of all the families who were at OC that week? There needs to be something like a roll call.
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I'm still picking Madeleine has been taken in a child replacement scenario.
In my theory the deceased child was left in the apartment and later retrieved, so that left cadaver odour and foreign DNA in the McCann's apartment.
So whoever lost a child at PdL or even at the OC that night are the parents who have her today.
Someone known to the McCanns IMO is the link between the McCann family and this other family. Maybe both sets of parents don't know each other but have someone known in common.
Does SY know the current whereabouts of all the families who were at OC that week?
As they were of a number of nationalities and it was 12 years ago, I think it unlikely
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As they were of a number of nationalities and it was 12 years ago, I think it unlikely
Could this be why they are looking for a specific person? Are they doing a roll call. They would also need a DNA sample from all the children who are in the families. For it would be possible for Madeleine to have taken over the identity of one of the children. It isn't good enough to know if such and such is alive but whether such and such is who the parents say they are. DNA testing is the only way to check this.
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I would imagine most of the families would be rather straight forward to check out, as their addresses will still be the same.
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Could this be why they are looking for a specific person? Are they doing a roll call. They would also need a DNA sample from all the children who are in the families. For it would be possible for Madeleine to have taken over the identity of one of the children. It isn't good enough to know if such and such is alive but whether such and such is who the parents say they are. DNA testing is the only way to check this.
Why limit yourself to OC guests?
Anyone meeting whatever your criteria are within a 50K radius of PDL would need to be looked at - just for starters.
An impossible task - IMO
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It isn't the responsibility of Scotland Yard. But Madeleine McCann remains a British Citizen lost abroad. This is the responsibility of The British Government who promise the right of passage by the right of Passport to travel freely and without hindrance.
This is why The Home Office is paying for the ongoing investigation.
I restrict myself from saying anything further to your spurious comment. Perhaps you should do the same.
You think I haven't noticed that you could be stalking me?
I responded to sadie you took the cudgel up and responded to me,thats stalking me.
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Why limit yourself to OC guests?
Anyone meeting whatever your criteria are within a 50K radius of PDL would need to be looked at - just for starters.
An impossible task - IMO
There is in my theory a common acquaintance as a link between the two families, and the knowledge that one of the Tapas 9 is a doctor (to examine the deceased child).
Locals would just use the local doctor services IMO.
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Could this be why they are looking for a specific person? Are they doing a roll call. They would also need a DNA sample from all the children who are in the families. For it would be possible for Madeleine to have taken over the identity of one of the children. It isn't good enough to know if such and such is alive but whether such and such is who the parents say they are. DNA testing is the only way to check this.
Thing is Rob,who says they are looking at a specific person,the lead investigators it seem's, the press!
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Thing is Rob,who says they are looking at a specific person,the lead investigators it seem's, the press!
That is the impression I got, OK it was an article in the press.
"Madeleine McCann breakthrough? Police 'close in on new suspect' - 'All very secret'" https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1143831/madeleine-mccann-scotland-yard-new-suspect-investigation-portugal
"“It’s all very secret but it always is with the Madeleine case. Only the police know who the suspect is.” Not much substance to back this up.
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That is the impression I got, OK it was an article in the press.
"Madeleine McCann breakthrough? Police 'close in on new suspect' - 'All very secret'" https://www.express.co.uk/news/world/1143831/madeleine-mccann-scotland-yard-new-suspect-investigation-portugal
"“It’s all very secret but it always is with the Madeleine case. Only the police know who the suspect is.” Not much substance to back this up.
Its "all very secret" should be the give away.
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I responded to sadie you took the cudgel up and responded to me,thats stalking me.
Then in that case please don't respond to any of my replies in future, which you have done several times, And not just o nce.
I am beginning to feel hounded by your perpetual attacks on any thing I have to say.
Not that any of them are even remotely relevant. Just don't take me on, our kid. I am so much better at this then you will ever be.
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Then in that case please don't respond to any of my replies in future, which you have done several times, And not just o nce.
I am beginning to feel hounded by your perpetual attacks on any thing I have to say.
Not that any of them are even remotely relevant. Just don't take me on, our kid. I am so much better at this then you will ever be.
Rather personal isn't it?
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Rather personal isn't it?
Somewhat aggressive I would say. Likely to be against the rules.
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Somewhat aggressive I would say. Likely to be against the rules.
Should be deleted really.
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Rather personal isn't it?
I think that it time that that we called quits, you and me. I don't dislike you.
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Should be deleted really.
I probably will be @)(++(*
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I think that it time that that we called quuits, you and me. I don't dislike you.
Couldn't care less,in my lifetime I've seen England win the Jules Rimet world cup,the Webb Ellis world cup and now the cricket world cup,I'm happy tonight I'm not worried about anything.
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The bloodline of say, Jesus, Mary Magdeleine, or John the baptist etc. would be immeasurably precious to some people.
To be saved at all costs.
In Madeleines case she already has the one name. Historically, they couldn't spell remember.
Madeleine = Magdeleine.
This is just a theory remember but it is intriguing ... and with all the meticulous planning and watching that appears to have happened could well be true. Madeleine appears to have been targetted.
We are all descended from a common ancestor are we not? I thought the McCanns and Kate nee Healy hail from working class Irish families? How does the fact they named their first born Madeleine make them in any way special and MM a target for would be child abductors?
What meticulous planning and watching happened? T9 and C8 had only been in PDL for some 5 days (Sat - Thu) before MM disappeared. According to their wit stats they rarely ventured off the complex and none of them could recall even the slightest detail of anything remotely sinister.
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I'm still picking Madeleine has been taken in a child replacement scenario.
In my theory the deceased child was left in the apartment and later retrieved, so that left cadaver odour and foreign DNA in the McCann's apartment.
So whoever lost a child at PdL or even at the OC that night are the parents who have her today.
Someone known to the McCanns IMO is the link between the McCann family and this other family. Maybe both sets of parents don't know each other but have someone known in common.
Does SY know the current whereabouts of all the families who were at OC that week? There needs to be something like a roll call.
The truth is probably much simpler.
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I believe, and in my opinion that, the couple who now have Madeleine, were not the people who abducted her. And might not even know who this child is, if Madeleine was immediately taken out to sea, having been handed over by The Abductor.
I do have opinions about who The Abductors were, but these would not be acceptable on this Forum at the moment.
I remain totally gob smacked by the nastiness. But I ever remain hopeful that I can deal with this.
Is it possible more than 1 or 2 people working together could have been involved with the possibility that he/she may share with others and so it proliferates and the likelihood of someone spilling the beans increases?
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We are all descended from a common ancestor are we not? I thought the McCanns and Kate nee Healy hail from working class Irish families? How does the fact they named their first born Madeleine make them in any way special and MM a target for would be child abductors?
What meticulous planning and watching happened? T9 and C8 had only been in PDL for some 5 days (Sat - Thu) before MM disappeared. According to their wit stats they rarely ventured off the complex and none of them could recall even the slightest detail of anything remotely sinister.
When was Madeleine targeted ? If she had this special bloodline surely it would have been just as she was born ? Why did they wait until she was three and able to identify herself ? Why take her when she was on holiday and not at home? How did they know that she would be on holiday ? Stroke of luck that her parents left the door open.
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When was Madeleine targeted ? If she had this special bloodline surely it would have been just as she was born ? Why did they wait until she was three and able to identify herself ? Why take her when she was on holiday and not at home? How did they know that she would be on holiday ? Stroke of luck that her parents left the door open.
Surely Amelie would have the same blood line and would have no memories of identification.
So why Madeleine?
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Surely Amelie would have the same blood line and would have no memories of identification.
So why Madeleine?
Good point.
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When was Madeleine targeted ? If she had this special bloodline surely it would have been just as she was born ? Why did they wait until she was three and able to identify herself ? Why take her when she was on holiday and not at home? How did they know that she would be on holiday ? Stroke of luck that her parents left the door open.
Unlocked 8((()*/
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Unlocked 8((()*/
Same thing in my neck of the woods...as in “I won’t be in to 5, leave the door open”
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Same thing in my neck of the woods...as in “I won’t be in to 5, leave the door open”
What do you say when you mean leave the door actually open?
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What do you say when you mean leave the door actually open?
The same.
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The bloodline of say, Jesus, Mary Magdeleine, or John the baptist etc. would be immeasurably precious to some people.
To be saved at all costs.
In Madeleines case she already has the one name. Historically, they couldn't spell remember.
Madeleine = Magdeleine.
This is just a theory remember but it is intriguing ... and with all the meticulous planning and watching that appears to have happened could well be true. Madeleine appears to have been targetted.
Not only could they not spell (not having an English education and living in a foreign land with their own language).
They didn't have plebotamists to hand.
What's the rarest blood type? which blood type was Jesus?
AB-negative (.6 percent)
B-negative (1.5 percent)
AB-positive (3.4 percent)
A-negative (6.3 percent)
O-negative (6.6 percent)
B-positive (8.5 percent)
A-positive (35.7 percent)
O-positive (37.4 percent)
What blood type was MBM?
Why take Maddie and not Gerrys sisters? more purer blood than his daughter, unless these snatchers were bloody stupid.
The very thought of Gerry having jesus blood line has me running to the toilet. Irish immigrants blood line more like it.
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I'm of the opinion that a child of Madeleine's age would have memories. I was 'taken', although in my case it was the authorities who took me. They took me into their care at the age of 2 and I was adopted pretty quickly. I remember being taken to my adoptive parents and have clear memories of my adoptive Dad who died when I was 4.
Imo the trauma of being taken leads to these early memories being formed. Trying to make sense of what has happened means a child takes more notice of the world around them.
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I'm of the opinion that a child of Madeleine's age would have memories. I was 'taken', although in my case it was the authorities who took me. They took me into their care at the age of 2 and I was adopted pretty quickly. I remember being taken to my adoptive parents and have clear memories of my adoptive Dad who died when I was 4.
Imo the trauma of being taken leads to these early memories being formed. Trying to make sense of what has happened means a child takes more notice of the world around them.
There will be studies on this and I'd say there will be a variation. I seem to recall very little of my early childhood. Yet my friend remembers a lot of detail.
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There will be studies on this and I'd say there will be a variation. I seem to recall very little of my early childhood. Yet my friend remembers a lot of detail.
You had no reason to wonder where your parents and siblings had gone.
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I'm of the opinion that a child of Madeleine's age would have memories. I was 'taken', although in my case it was the authorities who took me. They took me into their care at the age of 2 and I was adopted pretty quickly. I remember being taken to my adoptive parents and have clear memories of my adoptive Dad who died when I was 4.
Imo the trauma of being taken leads to these early memories being formed. Trying to make sense of what has happened means a child takes more notice of the world around them.
Implicit and explicit memory.
If MM was taken by say a childless couple and is being looked after then she would surely at some stage start to observe differences in appearance, personality etc?
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Implicit and explicit memory.
If MM was taken by say a childless couple and is being looked after then she would surely at some stage start to observe differences in appearance, personality etc?
She was quite capable of asking where her Mummy, Daddy and siblings were. If she did then presumeably an explanation would have been given. Whetever that was, she would know from then on that she wasn't the natural child of those she lived with. Almost all adopted children have a deep desire to know more. Finding blood relatives is very important. I think it's because adopted people know they're different in looks and oersonality and want to find the source of those differences. Ancestors can't be provided by adoption laws, they're provided by DNA. .
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She was quite capable of asking where her Mummy, Daddy and siblings were. If she did then presumeably an explanation would have been given. Whetever that was, she would know from then on that she wasn't the natural child of those she lived with. Almost all adopted children have a deep desire to know more. Finding blood relatives is very important. I think it's because adopted people know they're different in looks and oersonality and want to find the source of those differences. Ancestors can't be provided by adoption laws, they're provided by DNA. .
Got me thinking - wonder if the McCanns have registered their DNA profiles with Ancestry as an aid to Madeleine discovering her roots, should she be in a position to do so.
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What do you say when you mean leave the door actually open?
I find it interesting that all the case related commentary I've listened to and most docs really underplay the fact the patio doors were unlocked. Is this just to assuage the McCanns guilt and give them an easier passage or are they failing to appreciate what imo is significant? I still maintain this is key to the case. It's not the fact the children were left, although madness imo, but the fact the doors were unlocked and some people unknown to the McCanns understood this to be the case.
Here's a case in India where a mother left her son sleeping on a bench. He was then taken by a childless couple. An example of a low risk opportunity presenting and a childless couple happening upon a vulnerable child.
https://www.thehindu.com/news/cities/Delhi/Kidnapped-by-childless-couple-boy-reunited-with-parents-after-9-years/article14588795.ece
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She was quite capable of asking where her Mummy, Daddy and siblings were. If she did then presumeably an explanation would have been given. Whetever that was, she would know from then on that she wasn't the natural child of those she lived with. Almost all adopted children have a deep desire to know more. Finding blood relatives is very important. I think it's because adopted people know they're different in looks and oersonality and want to find the source of those differences. Ancestors can't be provided by adoption laws, they're provided by DNA. .
I guess it would depend on how they all coped and adapted to the situation. If it did happen this way MM would have been with her surrogate family for longer than her biological family.
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Surely Amelie would have the same blood line and would have no memories of identification.
So why Madeleine?
Maybe any childless couple only wanted one child and bizarrely did not feel it right to separate twins.
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I guess it would depend on how they all coped and adapted to the situation. If it did happen this way MM would have been with her surrogate family for longer than her biological family.
Whatever the ultimate outcome, it isn't going to be a case of a child returning to its biological family, but that of an adult meeting a group of strangers.
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Whatever the ultimate outcome, it isn't going to be a case of a child returning to its biological family, but that of an adult meeting a group of strangers.
Yes and if it did happen like this she may prefer to remain with her abductors ie Stockholm syndrome but the law would require any such person to be prosecuted.
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Yes and if it did happen like this she may prefer to remain with her abductors ie Stockholm syndrome but the law would require any such person to be prosecuted.
I suppose that would depend on what crime they were guilty of and which country's law would apply.
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I guess it would depend on how they all coped and adapted to the situation. If it did happen this way MM would have been with her surrogate family for longer than her biological family.
Having watched Long Lost Family time doesn't seem to matter. Neither does whether the adoption was successful or not. The need to know is very strong. Adopted children grow up isolated because they don't look, think or behave like anyone they know.
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Having watched Long Lost Family time doesn't seem to matter. Neither does whether the adoption was successful or not. The need to know is very strong. Adopted children gtow up isolated because they don't look, think or behave like anyone they know.
Well if MM was taken by a childless couple then she was abducted not adopted. She was just short of her 4th birthday and given no one heard any crying or screaming and the bed was found neatly she may have slept thru it. The couple may then have come up with a plausible narrative which was just built on as the years went by to the point I guess her previous life would just fade from memory. But she would be 16 yoa now and if she is living a 'normal' life with access to the internet you would think she might start wondering?
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As Portugal was/is part of the EU then it would have been possible for any abductors to drive though any of the EU member states no questions asked eg passport, docs?
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As Portugal was/is part of the EU then it would have been possible for any abductors to drive though any of the EU member states no questions asked eg passport, docs?
Pretty much so , yes.
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Well if MM was taken by a childless couple then she was abducted not adopted. She was just short of her 4th birthday and given no one heard any crying or screaming and the bed was found neatly she may have slept thru it. The couple may then have come up with a plausible narrative which was just built on as the years went by to the point I guess her previous life would just fade from memory. But she would be 16 yoa now and if she is living a 'normal' life with access to the internet you would think she might start wondering?
They could always claim that she was an orphan, say from a Romanian orphanage. Falsify a date of birth and adoption papers, no way she would be able to trace her parents in those sort of circumstances.
Faced with a story like that, why should she think any different?
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Well if MM was taken by a childless couple then she was abducted not adopted. She was just short of her 4th birthday and given no one heard any crying or screaming and the bed was found neatly she may have slept thru it. The couple may then have come up with a plausible narrative which was just built on as the years went by to the point I guess her previous life would just fade from memory. But she would be 16 yoa now and if she is living a 'normal' life with access to the internet you would think she might start wondering?
She is the most famous missing child in the world. Don’t you think if she was abducted for a childless couple her life would be anything but normal as the couple would have been terrified from the beginning that she may be identified? Do you really think that any couple knowing of the circumstances surrounding how the child was obtained and the worldwide publicity that ensued would be prepared to accept that child ?
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They could always claim that she was an orphan, say from a Romanian orphanage. Falsify a date of birth and adoption papers, no way she would be able to trace her parents in those sort of circumstances.
Faced with a story like that, why should she think any different?
Well MM looks quite celtic with fair skin and blue eyes? Perhaps not surprising since she hails from Irish stock. Romanians tend to have a darker skin tone and eyes? Is it really possible she could be with a couple leading a 'normal' life? I guess it would depend on the couple's lifestyle pre any MM and how well they could incorporate her into their lives post abduction.
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Well MM looks quite celtic with fair skin and blue eyes? Perhaps not surprising since she hails from Irish stock. Romanians tend to have a darker skin tone and eyes? Is it really possible she could be with a couple leading a 'normal' life? I guess it would depend on the couple's lifestyle pre any MM and how well they could incorporate her into their lives post abduction.
So you don’t think that a couple suddenly obtaining a child who looked like the most famous missing child in the world or a couple just arriving in town who had a child in tow who looked like the most famous missing child in history would arouse suspicion ?
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Having watched Long Lost Family time doesn't seem to matter. Neither does whether the adoption was successful or not. The need to know is very strong. Adopted children gtow up isolated because they don't look, think or behave like anyone they know.
That may be your experience but I would say it was a gross generalisation.
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Having watched Long Lost Family time doesn't seem to matter. Neither does whether the adoption was successful or not. The need to know is very strong. Adopted children gtow up isolated because they don't look, think or behave like anyone they know.
Opinion as fact... I'm sure there's lots of variation in the way adopted children feel... Not just the depressing picture you paint
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Well if MM was taken by a childless couple then she was abducted not adopted. She was just short of her 4th birthday and given no one heard any crying or screaming and the bed was found neatly she may have slept thru it. The couple may then have come up with a plausible narrative which was just built on as the years went by to the point I guess her previous life would just fade from memory. But she would be 16 yoa now and if she is living a 'normal' life with access to the internet you would think she might start wondering?
Young children will accept what they're told, but as they get older they will question more deeply. Madeleine has an inidentifiable distinguishing feature too.
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Young children will accept what they're told, but as they get older they will question more deeply. Madeleine has an inidentifiable distinguishing feature too.
I think the eye defect was grossly exaggerated as a good marketing ploy.
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I think the eye defect was grossly exaggerated as a good marketing ploy.
The childless couple theory is put forward simply to make more palatable the totally reckless choices the parents made.
If Madeleine is alive and living a’normal’ life as the much wanted child of a childless couple then it somehow makes her parents neglect less catastrophic.
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They could always claim that she was an orphan, say from a Romanian orphanage. Falsify a date of birth and adoption papers, no way she would be able to trace her parents in those sort of circumstances.
Faced with a story like that, why should she think any different?
What about memories and confusion?
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What about memories and confusion?
She may not have any memories.
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So you don’t think that a couple suddenly obtaining a child who looked like the most famous missing child in the world or a couple just arriving in town who had a child in tow who looked like the most famous missing child in history would arouse suspicion ?
She wouldn't look so out of place if she was a true "replacement child". Not a child in a childless family but replacing a child lost in a family that had a daughter her age. Could any family think that the McCanns owed them this much?
I know I sometimes buy tools with a lifetime guarantee. Could parents think their lost daughter came with a lifetime replacement guarantee?
I'm a bit surprised to find in the archiving report that the PJ had considered such topics. OK the translation isa bit wonky but I now think they are talking about this. I'll have to dig it up.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
"Considering the participated facts, conjugated with the information that was offered. namely by the witnesses, and with the information that was made available through the development of the inquiry, the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code."
Child replacement = posterior adoption. Is that how it was to be translated?
hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) Was that the PJ considering someone insisting on the replacement coming from the McCanns?
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She may not have any memories.
Initially she would have memories. Unless she did have an accident and suffered amnesia.
Like now at my age I may not have that many memories of being nearly 4, but when I was alive back then surely I had memories of my family at the time.
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She wouldn't look so out of place if she was a true "replacement child". Not a child in a childless family but replacing a child lost in a family that had a daughter her age. Could any family think that the McCanns owed them this much?
I know I sometimes buy tools with a lifetime guarantee. Could parents think their lost daughter came with a lifetime replacement guarantee?
I'm a bit surprised to find in the archiving report that the PJ had considered such topics. OK the translation isa bit wonky but I now think they are talking about this. I'll have to dig it up.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/LEGAL_SUMMARY.htm
"Considering the participated facts, conjugated with the information that was offered. namely by the witnesses, and with the information that was made available through the development of the inquiry, the investigation equated the verification of several hypotheses: abduction, for the purpose of sexual exploration or others (i.e. posterior adoption, child traffic, organ traffic), without homicide; abduction, followed by homicide with (or without) concealment of a cadaver, hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) or simply taking advantage of the circumstance that the child was in a situation of actual vulnerability (opportunity abduction), accidental death, with posterior concealment of the cadaver and, underlying all of these possibilities, abandonment, substantiated as a crime under article 138 of the Penal Code."
Child replacement = posterior adoption. Is that how it was to be translated?
hypotheses that were considered under the double sides of the abduction (if it existed) having occurred due to feelings of vengeance of the abductor(s) towards the parents (directed abduction) Was that the PJ considering someone insisting on the replacement coming from the McCanns?
Have you been having discussions with Sadie ?
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Have you been having discussions with Sadie ?
Not recently. That is straight out of the PJ legal summary. They are considering if someone abducted Madeleine on the basis that the McCanns owed them something. That is a topic I've never seen being discussed before but there is evidence of this!
How do you understand the term "posterior adoption"?
Have you ever considered "Directed abduction"?
Up till now I have considered woke and wandered followed by an accident and an "opportunity abduction".
Yet my theory right from the start was a "directed abduction" but have always struggled to see how this could be developed. How could such a situation as "directed abduction" ever occur?
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I think the eye defect was grossly exaggerated as a good marketing ploy.
I agree. It was a marketing ploy, wasn't it? All those doctors and nurses looking in children's eyes after reading about Madeleine's 'coloboma' in the Lancet! Wouldn't it be interesting if she was found and it had disappeared?
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She is the most famous missing child in the world. Don’t you think if she was abducted for a childless couple her life would be anything but normal as the couple would have been terrified from the beginning that she may be identified? Do you really think that any couple knowing of the circumstances surrounding how the child was obtained and the worldwide publicity that ensued would be prepared to accept that child ?
It seems from your post you are talking about an individual(s) procuring a child for a childless couple? My thinking is that a childless couple actually carried out the abduction with a view to raising MM. If I'm right then the couple could not possibly have envisaged the media circus that followed. Had they have done they might have thought twice.
What exactly did media coverage amount to outside UK? A lot of people live in their own worlds and simply don't watch/read the news. Even if I assume it was media saturation across Europe it only went on for so long until people turned off and became desensitised to all the 'sightings'. By which time MM was developing fast and her physical appearance changing.
If you Google 'Madeleine McCann images' I don't think you will find any with her hair up in a pony tail. Even doing this would throw most people of the trail.
https://www.google.com/search?q=madeleine+mccann+images&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi2z_eds7vjAhWHi1wKHe6eAx0Q_AUIECgB&biw=960&bih=536
And it would depend on the couples lifestyle. If they were your typical Mr and Mrs Jones living in a community where they were known with regular 9 - 5 jobs, extended family and social circle then it's difficult to see how they could incorporate MM into their lives without keeping her hidden. But maybe their lifestyle was more flexible and open and they were able to all fall under the radar.
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That may be your experience but I would say it was a gross generalisation.
Opinion as fact... I'm sure there's lots of variation in the way adopted children feel... Not just the depressing picture you paint
I was adopted at 6 weeks of age during the so-called baby scoop era and in my personal experience and based on research the evidence suggests that most adult adoptees do want to find out about their biological backgrounds regardless of any other factors.
If MM is still out there with her abductors then she will surely realise her abductors are not her biological parents? MM descends from a long line of Celts which have a particular look in terms of skin tone, eye and hair colour. Even if she suspected she might be MM she might take the view how could my parents have left me? She might have formed strong bonds with her abductors. If she has been well cared for her loyalties will lie with her abductors not her biological parents.
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I was adopted at 6 weeks of age during the so-called baby scoop era and in my personal experience and based on research the evidence suggests that most adult adoptees do want to find out about their biological backgrounds regardless of any other factors.
If MM is still out there with her abductors then she will surely realise her abductors are not her biological parents? MM descends from a long line of Celts which have a particular look in terms of skin tone, eye and hair colour. Even if she suspected she might be MM she might take the view how could my parents have left me? She might have formed strong bonds with her abductors. If she has been well cared for her loyalties will lie with her abductors not her biological parents.
I'm sure many adopted children want to find their biological parents I just don't think they all grow up feeling isolated as gunit suggested
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I was adopted at 6 weeks of age during the so-called baby scoop era and in my personal experience and based on research the evidence suggests that most adult adoptees do want to find out about their biological backgrounds regardless of any other factors.
If MM is still out there with her abductors then she will surely realise her abductors are not her biological parents? MM descends from a long line of Celts which have a particular look in terms of skin tone, eye and hair colour. Even if she suspected she might be MM she might take the view how could my parents have left me? She might have formed strong bonds with her abductors. If she has been well cared for her loyalties will lie with her abductors not her biological parents.
You seem to be making the assumption that her 'carers' will be of a markedly different ethnic make up, whereas they might be quite close in ethnicity.
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I'm sure many adopted children want to find their biological parents I just don't think they all grow up feeling isolated as gunit suggested
Are you referring to closed or open adoptions?
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Are you referring to closed or open adoptions?
Gunit didn't specify
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You seem to be making the assumption that her 'carers' will be of a markedly different ethnic make up, whereas they might be quite close in ethnicity.
No I believe any abductors in this situation are most likely Europeans. But there are subtle differences that are observable.
I believe MM had some sunburn on one of her arms? Celts have very fair skin which burns easily in the sun this might not be the case with any abductors.
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Gunit didn't specify
I was responding to your post Davel not G-Unit.
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I was responding to your post Davel not G-Unit.
And I answered it. .you need go see my post in the, context it was made... In reply to gunits
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And I answered it. .you need go see my post in the, context it was made... In reply to gunits
We are all responsible for out own post content are we not? You made some sweeping statements about adoption and I asked you what type of adoption arrangement you were referring to.
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We are all responsible for out own post content are we not? You made some sweeping statements about adoption and I asked you what type of adoption arrangement you were referring to.
See gunits post Re the sweeping statement.... Posts need to be seen in context... It was gunit who made the sweeping statement I merely commented on it
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See gunits post Re the sweeping statement.... Posts need to be seen in context... It was gunit who made the sweeping statement I merely commented on it
Are you saying you don't carry out your own research? You just follow G-Unit? I'm surprised you have polar opposite views on MM's case?
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Are you saying you don't carry out your own research? You just follow G-Unit? I'm surprised you have polar opposite views on MM's case?
I think this is developing into a silly spat and is best left... I merely commented on gunits post....anyone who has, read the forum would know I've done a lot of research into what I consider to be the important points in the case ...many of the recent threads are totally pointless imo
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She is the most famous missing child in the world. Don’t you think if she was abducted for a childless couple her life would be anything but normal as the couple would have been terrified from the beginning that she may be identified? Do you really think that any couple knowing of the circumstances surrounding how the child was obtained and the worldwide publicity that ensued would be prepared to accept that child ?
If the family recognised her as being Madeleine McCann then yes, they would be terrified to keep her and would have probably have given her up. If the family were in on the abduction, then no they wouldn't give her up with all the publicity surrounding Madeleine, they would change her appearance and hide her, most likely for years. The McCann's said you would have to get very close to Madeleine to see the mark in her eye, if they dyed Madeleine's hair and cut it short it would change her description drastically. Some people look at photo's that are Madeleine and note how different she looks in those photo's if her hair is different. Years can change the development of the child's face too making it difficult to identify her.
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I think this is developing into a silly spat and is best left... I merely commented on gunits post....anyone who has, read the forum would know I've done a lot of research into what I consider to be the important points in the case ...many of the recent threads are totally pointless imo
Don't visit them then.
Once I discovered how meaningless the dog alerts were I ceased contributing to the threads.
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Don't visit them then.
Once I discovered how meaningless the dog alerts were I ceased contributing to the threads.
I'll post where I wish to
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I'll post where I wish to
Have I told you where to post and where not to? I simply recommended not visiting the threads that in your opinion are pointless.
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Have I told you where to post and where not to? I simply recommended not visiting the threads that in your opinion are pointless.
I don't need, any advice from you thanks
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I don't need, any advice from you thanks
Where have I advised you?
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Where have I advised you?
I'm really not bothered with this pointless discussion... Best end it
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I'm really not bothered with this pointless discussion... Best end it
So why respond?
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Have you been having discussions with Sadie ?
Err?
Not much that is common, Faith, between what Rob was quoting /hypothesizing and my thoughts.
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The childless couple theory is put forward simply to make more palatable the totally reckless choices the parents made.
If Madeleine is alive and living a’normal’ life as the much wanted child of a childless couple then it somehow makes her parents neglect less catastrophic.
Yes, this had to change when the unlocked door and Maddie could have wandered stories were begining to circulate- the negative feelings were being aired by public and police, we no longer had the headline grabbing British child snatched from her bed from jemmied window-as [parents were sitting what is like sitting in their garden.
Smoke screen to lessen the fact that they were enjoying their photo shoots .walkabouts etc when their daughter was snatched by a paedo gang... oooh can't be havig that. they also claimed she came to 'no harm'..
One would think being snatched physically,mentally, emotionall and sexually abused ,tortured by an adult gang would constitue 'harm'but they are doctors and what do we know about these things? Kate assured us that little Maddie would give them her 'tuppence worth' (a bit of defiant cheek).
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Err?
Not much that is common, Faith, between what Rob was quoting /hypothesizing and my thoughts.
Just as absurd though.
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In South Africa, about three years ago, there was the case of Zephany Nurse who, as a two-day old was abducted from a hospital in Cape Town. She was eventually found seventeen years later. Her biological parents had another girl shortly after her disappearance who started attending school in their neighbourhood. The father always used to drop the girl off at school. As the child grew older he started seeing a very clear physical resemblance between his daughter and another girl at school. He observed and wondered for months if the girl might be their abducted child. In the end, DNA profiling was a 100% match. The person who took her, was convicted and sent to prison. Zephany chose to support and stand by her ‘adoptive’ mother. She has assumed a new identity which, for obvious reasons, has never been made public.
I think it is very plausible that an abducted child may lead a normal and happy life ... until being discovered ...
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I remember reading about that.
The moral, I think, is be careful what you wish for.
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I totally agree, Jassi. In my opinion, once a missing person, but especially a minor is retrieved, the real heartache begins. It becomes a no-win scenario for everyone concerned. As you say: be careful what you wish for. Perhaps the forum can theorize around the possible scenario that if Madeleine is alive and retrieved and re-united with her siblings and parents ... then what?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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In a few years she would legally be an adult, so retrieval may cease to be a realistic option.
Even at 16, her parents may have no 'right' to her and certainly not after the age of 18
Like the girl in South Africa, she would be free to choose her own future.
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Of course it's possible for an abducted child to have a normal life elsewhere.
https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/news/article.cfm?c_id=6&objectid=12252020
Missing child found 18 years after being abducted from parents
23 Jul, 2019 2:48pm
There are new hopes for the McCanns after a FaceApp-styled AI helped reunite a Chinese man with his parents after he was kidnapped 18 years ago.
Yu Weifeng, 21, was reunited with his family last week after police were able to use technology to predict what he looked like as an adult.
On May 6, 2001, Weifeng went missing while playing near a construction site where his father worked as a foreman.
For 18 years Weifeng's father Yu Xingquan and mother Rong Muhuan searched numerous cities but found no trace of their boy.
But after 18 years of dead-ends, police used AI to predict what he'd look like now.
The software spent about two months sorting through nearly 100 candidates before singling out Weifeng, who is a student in the provincial capital Guangzhou.
Investigator Zheng Zhenhai said: "When he found him, he refused to believe that he was a kidnapped child, but DNA confirmed that he was a match with his biological parents.
"We opened the case the day after the incident and we never gave up.
"Technology was limited at the time.
"We checked surveillance footage, but there were simply too many people coming in and out of the area."
The emotional dad said at the reunion: "We're also very grateful to his foster parents for raising him for 18 years. From now on, his foster father will become like a brother to me; my son will have two dads."
Police said they were still investigating details of the 2001 kidnapping, with no arrests announced so far.
HOPES FOR MADELINE MCCANN
The technology used to locate Weifeng has given some hope in potentially advancing the case of finding missing girl Madeleine McCann.
Maddie vanished from the Praia da Luz resort in Portugal in 2007 aged just three at the time.
Now they're hoping the advancement in technology and face recognition could help solve the case.
The official Find Madeleine Campaign website says: "Fortunately, there are many cases of abducted children being found and returned to their families — even after long periods of time.
"The vital piece of information that leads to a happy and longed-for reunion is usually thanks to a caring and vigilant member of the general public, often recognising a face from a poster."
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There was another case in South Africa in the 1990’s when Michaela Hunter, only 17 hours old was taken from a hospital in Johannesburg. Her kidnapper was a student and was participating in an intern programme at the hospital. She told the baby’s mother she needs her child as part of an organised university course to demonstrate bathing an infant. She took the baby and disappeared. She pretended to be pregnant until her boyfriend became suspicious when she arrived home with a newborn. He reported it to police and Michaela was reunited with her family after two years. This is the person who took the infant.
There are so may scenarios when children are taken. That is the point I wanted to share.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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There was another case in South Africa in the 1990’s when Michaela Hunter, only 17 hours old was taken from a hospital in Johannesburg. Her kidnapper was a student and was participating in an intern programme at the hospital. She told the baby’s mother she needs her child as part of an organised university course to demonstrate bathing an infant. She took the baby and disappeared. She pretended to be pregnant until her boyfriend became suspicious when she arrived home with a newborn. He reported it to police and Michaela was reunited with her family after two years. This is the person who took the infant.
There are so may scenarios when children are taken. That is the point I wanted to share.
Had you heard about any of these children before an intensive google search ? Compare the publicity surrounding their disappearance with that surrounding Madeleine’s.
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Had you heard about any of these children before an intensive google search ? Compare the publicity surrounding their disappearance with that surrounding Madeleine’s.
I had heard of the first one.
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Faithlilly, the two cases I am referring to happened in an era without facebook, twitter and other social media. I cannot compare them to the publicity Madeleine is getting. Perhaps you can? There was/is no need for me to resort to an ‘intensive google search’ concerning these cases. I am South African and at the time both were widely reported on in newspapers and other published material.
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Faithlilly, the two cases I am referring to happened in an era without facebook, twitter and other social media. I cannot compare them to the publicity Madeleine is getting. Perhaps you can? There was/is no need for me to resort to an ‘intensive google search’ concerning these cases. I am South African and at the time both were widely reported on in newspapers and other published material.
This case has only really been made complicated by the fact the disappearance took place in an area where the population was highly transient with a lack of surveillance. Both of which made an abduction possible to execute and avoid detection thereafter.
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Aye, so much so that no trace has ever been found of child or alleged abductor.
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I totally agree, Jassi. In my opinion, once a missing person, but especially a minor is retrieved, the real heartache begins. It becomes a no-win scenario for everyone concerned. As you say: be careful what you wish for. Perhaps the forum can theorize around the possible scenario that if Madeleine is alive and retrieved and re-united with her siblings and parents ... then what?
Strangely enough I've found myself thinking about this. I think much would depend on how MM fared with any abductor(s). If she has been well cared for her family, friends and the public at large might take a more lenient view with the abductor(s). Regardless the courts will want and need to punish with a long custodial sentence. This will mean MM suffers another traumatic separation even if she has been mistreated ie Stockholm syndrome. The McCanns will no doubt still see MM as the nearly 4 year old she was when she disappeared when in reality she's almost an adult. MM could feel resentful and angry about the way in which she was left. Any abductor(s) may have raised MM differently to how the McCanns would have chosen which will inevitably cause problems. All concerned will need a lot of expert help in coming to terms with it all and moving on. But as KM said in the interview with Fiona Bruce (10th anniversary) the best possible outcome is that MM is found alive and well and anything else they'll deal with or words to this effect.
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Strangely enough I've found myself thinking about this. I think much would depend on how MM fared with any abductor(s). If she has been well cared for her family, friends and the public at large might take a more lenient view with the abductor(s). Regardless the courts will want and need to punish with a long custodial sentence. This will mean MM suffers another traumatic separation even if she has been mistreated ie Stockholm syndrome. The McCanns will no doubt still see MM as the nearly 4 year old she was when she disappeared when in reality she's almost an adult. MM could feel resentful and angry about the way in which she was left. Any abductor(s) may have raised MM differently to how the McCanns would have chosen which will inevitably cause problems. All concerned will need a lot of expert help in coming to terms with it all and moving on. But as KM said in the interview with Fiona Bruce (10th anniversary) the best possible outcome is that MM is found alive and well and anything else they'll deal with or words to this effect.
Who is going to bring this imaginary scenario to bear SY? they have no jurisdiction in Portugal its not their case,the PJ ? what is the statute of limitations on abduction?
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Who is going to bring this imaginary scenario to bear SY? they have no jurisdiction in Portugal its not their case,the PJ ? what is the statute of limitations on abduction?
I have wondered about this as well.
If Madeleine was discovered within UK territory, then things would be more straightforward, although it may be argued that UK have no charge to bring, depending upon circumstances.
Outside of that, Portugal may not wish to proceed after so many years, particularly it it were to involve lengthy extradition procedures
This all assumes that Madeleine is alive and ultimately found.
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I have wondered about this as well.
If Madeleine was discovered within UK territory, then things would be more straightforward, although it may be argued that UK have no charge to bring, depending upon circumstances.
Outside of that, Portugal may not wish to proceed after so many years, particularly it it were to involve lengthy extradition procedures
This all assumes that Madeleine is alive and ultimately found.
Which is totally at odds with SY's activities in 2014,nothing since except a vast scaling back of man power.
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I have wondered about this as well.
If Madeleine was discovered within UK territory, then things would be more straightforward, although it may be argued that UK have no charge to bring, depending upon circumstances.
Outside of that, Portugal may not wish to proceed after so many years, particularly it it were to involve lengthy extradition procedures
This all assumes that Madeleine is alive and ultimately found.
It seems one of the better outcomes possible.
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It seems one of the better outcomes possible.
It might be seen to be better,but in reality is it likely.
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It might be seen to be better,but in reality is it likely.
Yes it is.
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Who is going to bring this imaginary scenario to bear SY? they have no jurisdiction in Portugal its not their case,the PJ ? what is the statute of limitations on abduction?
If such a situation arose it would depend on where MM/abductor(s) are found. If Portugal the PJ would deal with it all single-handedly. If they were in some other country then the PJ would have to put a case to that country's law enforcement and if they agreed then the abductor(s) would be extradited to stand trial in Portugal.
I don't believe any statue of limitation exists in terms of abduction.
Anyhow I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves here! Any abductor(s) need to be found first!
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If such a situation arose it would depend on where MM/abductor(s) are found. If Portugal the PJ would deal with it all single-handedly. If they were in some other country then the PJ would have to put a case to that country's law enforcement and if they agreed then the abductor(s) would be extradited to stand trial in Portugal.
I don't believe any statue of limitation exists in terms of abduction.
Anyhow I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves here! Any abductor(s) need to be found first!
Ain't that the truth.
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If such a situation arose it would depend on where MM/abductor(s) are found. If Portugal the PJ would deal with it all single-handedly. If they were in some other country then the PJ would have to put a case to that country's law enforcement and if they agreed then the abductor(s) would be extradited to stand trial in Portugal.
I don't believe any statue of limitation exists in terms of abduction.
Anyhow I think we're getting a bit ahead of ourselves here! Any abductor(s) need to be found first!
I'm sort of hoping "Madeleine" will reach out to us. Possibly through a Facebook group. It might be hard to recognise who is behind whatever identity she has now.
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I'm sort of hoping "Madeleine" will reach out to us. Possibly through a Facebook group. It might be hard to recognise who is behind whatever identity she has now.
Yes its possible. A lot of birth parents are tracing their children to their adoptive homes when in practice this should not be possible. But we don't know for sure whether MM is alive and if she is whether she has age appropriate freedom of movement.
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Yes its possible. A lot of birth parents are tracing their children to their adoptive homes when in practice this should not be possible. But we don't know for sure whether MM is alive and if she is whether she has age appropriate freedom of movement.
I have a Facebook group and people join all the time. One person joined recently who had absolutely no profile information. It left me feeling troubled.
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I totally get that this is unlikely and conspiratorial but it is out there that Madeleine was actually found alive but due to it being such a high profile case, the lie that she was still missing had to be perpetuated for her to live a normal life.
It had me thinking that, theoretically, if Madeleine is alive and is retrievable, it will be a highly covert and clandestine procedure and operation, and the general public will not know until ... I don’t know.
Surely it will not be breaking news all over the world right away ... ‘Madeleine has been found and she is alive’.
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As much as my heart wants to believe Maddie was stolen to order for a childess couple who love and care for her and she lives happily with them-my head tell me different.
My head tells me something of a horrific nature happened to little Maddie and she is no longer alive. It could be she is still alive and suffering still.
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As much as my heart wants to believe Maddie was stolen to order for a childless couple who love and care for her and she lives happily with them-my head tell me different.
My head tells me something of a horrific nature happened to little Maddie and she is no longer alive. It could be she is still alive and suffering still.
TBH even though I say Madeleine will be found one day I have my moments of doubt too. But my main thought is on the day of reunion with Kate and Gerry back in PDL. Hallelujah!
Kate's prayers will have been answered. Hallelujah.
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Faithlilly, the two cases I am referring to happened in an era without facebook, twitter and other social media. I cannot compare them to the publicity Madeleine is getting. Perhaps you can? There was/is no need for me to resort to an ‘intensive google search’ concerning these cases. I am South African and at the time both were widely reported on in newspapers and other published material.
You can’t compare them.....that’s my point.
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I totally get that this is unlikely and conspiratorial but it is out there that Madeleine was actually found alive but due to it being such a high profile case, the lie that she was still missing had to be perpetuated for her to live a normal life.
It had me thinking that, theoretically, if Madeleine is alive and is retrievable, it will be a highly covert and clandestine procedure and operation, and the general public will not know until ... I don’t know.
Surely it will not be breaking news all over the world right away ... ‘Madeleine has been found and she is alive’.
Think of the case involving Austrian Anna Fritzl. After the intial furore I haven't seen anything reported about Anna or her children.
If MM is found alive, well or otherwise, I think the media attention will focus on the abductor(s).
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As much as my heart wants to believe Maddie was stolen to order for a childess couple who love and care for her and she lives happily with them-my head tell me different.
My head tells me something of a horrific nature happened to little Maddie and she is no longer alive. It could be she is still alive and suffering still.
Why not a childless couple stealing direct as opposed to involving a middleman?
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Why not a childless couple stealing direct as opposed to involving a middleman?
Indeed, why not.
Any suspects?
The last I heard, men seemed to be the most likely suspects, certainly judging by the witness 'sightings' and e-fits.
Perhaps the 'little woman' stayed in the background.
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Indeed, why not.
Any suspects?
The last I heard, men seemed to be the most likely suspects, certainly judging by the witness 'sightings' and e-fits.
Perhaps the 'little woman' stayed in the background.
But there's nothing to say these witness sightings and e-fits are anything but red herrings.
T9 didn't report anything suspicious. And for those who believe they're involved then why not make up some creepy looking individual hanging around.
Do you remember this case?
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/crimes-shook-teesside-alex-griffiths-5120233
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But there's nothing to say these witness sightings and e-fits are anything but red herrings.
T9 didn't report anything suspicious. And for those who believe they're involved then why not make up some creepy looking individual hanging around.
Do you remember this case?
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/crimes-shook-teesside-alex-griffiths-5120233
Why should early sceptic invent a creepy looking individual - would that not help the parents' story ?
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Why should early sceptic invent a creepy looking individual - would that not help the parents' story ?
Yes that's what I'm saying, T9 did not report any suspicious individuals, but those who believe them responsible will say well we can't believe them. If they wanted to construct an abduction theory to take the heat off themselves then why not add to it with a fictitious creepy individual hanging around which at the time they didn't think anything of.
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In my opinion, there is enough about the whole crew to disbelieve without making things up.
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In my opinion, there is enough about the whole crew to disbelieve without making things up.
Such as?
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Such as?
That's for me to know and you to wonder 8)--))
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That's for me to know and you to wonder 8)--))
One of the strangest things ever said on the forum, Jassi saying "That's for me to know and you to wonder". I wonder what that means in the long run?
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One of the strangest things ever said on the forum, Jassi saying "That's for me to know and you to wonder". I wonder what that means in the long run?
It means you ain't gonna find out 8(>((
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/that%27s_for_me_to_know_and_you_to_find_out
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It means you ain't gonna find out 8(>((
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/that%27s_for_me_to_know_and_you_to_find_out
How will we ever cope?
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How will we ever cope?
I'm sure you'll find a way 8(0(*
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It means you ain't gonna find out 8(>((
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/that%27s_for_me_to_know_and_you_to_find_out
Remember the camp commandant from "Hogan's Heroes" "We have our means, we have our ways" something like that.
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I'm sure you'll find a way 8(0(*
Yep. Found it. @)(++(*
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But there's nothing to say these witness sightings and e-fits are anything but red herrings.
T9 didn't report anything suspicious. And for those who believe they're involved then why not make up some creepy looking individual hanging around.
Do you remember this case?
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/crimes-shook-teesside-alex-griffiths-5120233
T9 didn't report nything suspicious?
What about Tannerman for starters.
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T9 didn't report nything suspicious?
What about Tannerman for starters.
Almost certainly another tourist going about his lawful business,nothing suspicious in that.
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Almost certainly another tourist going about his lawful business,nothing suspicious in that.
And they knew that when they reported it I suppose?
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And they knew that when they reported it I suppose?
It was suspicious to see some one carrying a child around in a holiday resort,really?
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It was suspicious to see some one carrying a child around in a holiday resort,really?
Hardly when the OC night creche catered for holidaymakers staying in apartments spread far and wide.
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Almost certainly another tourist going about his lawful business,nothing suspicious in that.
Splendid detective you would make. Not.
Only my opinion, of course.
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Hardly when the OC night creche catered for holidaymakers staying in apartments spread far and wide.
No OC creche in the direction the man walked from .
Soz Holly, but you are on a loser there..
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Splendid detective you would make. Not.
Only my opinion, of course.
Oh! yes,I know my limitations and stick with them.
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It was suspicious to see some one carrying a child around in a holiday resort,really?
So your mate’s kid goes missing on holiday and you see a bloke carrying a small female child away from the apartment and you’d not have reported it?
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So your mate’s kid goes missing on holiday and you see a bloke carrying a small female child away from the apartment and you’d not have reported it?
Did Tanner report it or mention it in passing?
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Did Tanner report it or mention it in passing?
She didn't think it significant enough to mention it to the T9 upon her return to the Tapas, those leaving very young children alone.
The Smiths thought nothing of their sighting at the time. Just a man carrying his child, not a predator with his prey. Mind you, they had their children in tow.
Shame Jane did not check all three relevant apartments on the ground floor after this sighting. 8(8-))
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Did Tanner report it or mention it in passing?
Are you goal post shifting again?
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Are you goal post shifting again?
No,did she report this suspicious person or mention it in passing.
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No,did she report this suspicious person or mention it in passing.
Define “mentioned it in passing” and explain how it differs from “reporting”.
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Define “mentioned it in passing” and explain how it differs from “reporting”.
"Mentioning it in passing" is often preceded by words to the effect, "while we are on the topic ...."
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"Mentioning it in passing" is often preceded by words to the effect, "while we are on the topic ...."
She mentioned it in passing-maybe. Well, we are not privvy to their conversations, they had when coming up with timelines. We do know they were worried aboutwhat parents back home and work colleagues would think of them-but it sure did save them all having a baddie steal MBM.
What kind of mother leaves her daughter who has been vomiting alone in an apartment to go and eat? They really are a dispicable bunch of people. No wonder they don't talk. They know they would be challenged on their accounts of what story they gave.
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There is a wonderful narrative about Madeleine being happpily reunited with her parents- however if she was made aware of what they did pre and post her disappearance. I doubt very much she would rush to their arms.
The twins having been brainwashed- may subcome to a reality that they were left alone after an alledged abductor stole their sister? were they next?
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There is a wonderful narrative about Madeleine being happpily reunited with her parents- however if she was made aware of what they did pre and post her disappearance. I doubt very much she would rush to their arms.
The twins having been brainwashed- may subcome to a reality that they were left alone after an alledged abductor stole their sister? were they next?
What do you mean by “subcome” ?
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There is a wonderful narrative about Madeleine being happily reunited with her parents- however if she was made aware of what they did pre and post her disappearance. I doubt very much she would rush to their arms.
The twins having been brainwashed- may succumb to a reality that they were left alone after an alleged abductor stole their sister? were they next?
Subcome = succumb had me confused as well.
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The video that defines the abduction https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/interview-with-assistant-commissioner-mark-rowley-who-news-footage/673183860
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The video that defines the abduction https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/interview-with-assistant-commissioner-mark-rowley-who-news-footage/673183860
Thanks Rob thats what i was looking for.
Ten yrs on we still don't have definitive evidence,sums it up.
Further adding the evidence is limited to be cast iron about which hypotheses to follow,after talking of murder,missing persons investigation,abduction.
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The more you listen to Rowley the more unlikely the thread title is a goer.
11:30 in,Brunt I think it is, asks,is stranger abduction a focus,Rowleys reply:while we've got some lead ideas,there's still alot of unknowns.We've got a young girl gone missing ten yrs ago,until we get to the point we've solved it we're unlikley to have definitive evidence in to exactly what happened at the time so all the different hypotheses you and I can come up with have to remain open.
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Interesting snippet at the end,Brunt asked how long will the investigation keep going,Rowley replied the MET side won't keep going on as long as it has been going,so there is a time limit.
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The more you listen to Rowley the more unlikely the thread title is a goer.
11:30 in,Brunt I think it is, asks,is stranger abduction a focus,Rowleys reply:while we've got some lead ideas,there's still alot of unknowns.We've got a young girl gone missing ten yrs ago,until we get to the point we've solved it we're unlikley to have definitive evidence in to exactly what happened at the time so all the different hypotheses you and I can come up with have to remain open.
As Rowley said you have to keep all options open. His words were "so all the different hypotheses you and I can come up with have to remain open." He says "ALL have to remain open!"
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But there's nothing to say these witness sightings and e-fits are anything but red herrings.
T9 didn't report anything suspicious. And for those who believe they're involved then why not make up some creepy looking individual hanging around.
Do you remember this case?
https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/teesside-news/crimes-shook-teesside-alex-griffiths-5120233
If the T9 had reported seeing creepy people then their childcare arrangements would have made even less sense. It wouldn't have 'felt safe' in Luz then, would it?
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It was two years ago, but Rowley didn't seem to have any idea where Madeleine might be, despite some people thinking OG do know. In fact he mentions being pessimistic about prospects; 3:51
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/interview-with-assistant-commissioner-mark-rowley-who-news-footage/673183860
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It was two years ago, but Rowley didn't seem to have any idea where Madeleine might be, despite some people thinking OG do know. In fact he mentions being pessimistic about prospects; 3:51
https://www.gettyimages.co.uk/detail/video/interview-with-assistant-commissioner-mark-rowley-who-news-footage/673183860
But if we keep all options open "It Might Still Be Possible For Madeleine To Live A 'Normal' Life Elsewhere"?
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What ever happened to Hope?
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What ever happened to Hope?
Is that realistic hope or hope against hope?
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Is that realistic hope or hope against hope?
Just Hope will do. Along with a bit of Faith and Charity.
And lets not have any snide remarks about Charity.
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What ever happened to Hope?
"It's not the despair, I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
Listen to Rowley and lately Dick,there doesn't seem much,imo any trail is long gone cold.
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"It's not the despair, I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
Listen to Rowley and lately Dick,there doesn't seem much,imo any trail is long gone cold.
When not related to your child. At what point in time would you give up on your child?
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If the T9 had reported seeing creepy people then their childcare arrangements would have made even less sense. It wouldn't have 'felt safe' in Luz then, would it?
Kate did claim to have a bad feeling that eve ? hence why the door was left unlocked? Gerry wasn't as concerned according to Kate.
But anyway, The made the descision to leave the children alone before they left for the UK.
Kate and Gerry tell us MBM challeged them about waking up and crying. they both ignored this and stuck to their program! as did JT going to check on her sick child which she left alone.
Oh dear me.
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So given the public do not appear to have taken on board the age-progressed images I think the above might well be possible ie MM is still alive.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10953.msg550937#msg550937
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So given the public do not appear to have taken on board the age-progressed images I think the above might well be possible ie MM is still alive.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=10953.msg550937#msg550937
What do you mean by: "given the public do not appear to have taken on board the age-progressed images" Do you really believe the public give a goose about finding one person? and do you believe the public are looking for her? I don't.
Chance of being alive? two choices ;dead or alive a chance of either being possible, I would say.
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What do you mean by: "given the public do not appear to have taken on board the age-progressed images" Do you really believe the public give a goose about finding one person? and do you believe the public are looking for her? I don't.
Chance of being alive? two choices ;dead or alive a chance of either being possible, I would say.
I agree post aftermath the public lost interest. This leads me to conclude that if MM was abducted it is possible her abductor(s) kept her 'hidden' until the publicity subsided. This along with the fact her physical appearance would have changed anyway based on age-progression means she could well be living a 'normal' life elsewhere.
If the abductor(s) are who I think they are they would be well placed to carry out the above.
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I agree post aftermath the public lost interest. This leads me to conclude that if MM was abducted it is possible her abductor(s) kept her 'hidden' until the publicity subsided. This along with the fact her physical appearance would have changed anyway based on age-progression means she could well be living a 'normal' life elsewhere.
If the abductor(s) are who I think they are they would be well placed to carry out the above.
Why would those abductors do that to another family?
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I agree post aftermath the public lost interest. This leads me to conclude that if MM was abducted it is possible her abductor(s) kept her 'hidden' until the publicity subsided. This along with the fact her physical appearance would have changed anyway based on age-progression means she could well be living a 'normal' life elsewhere.
If the abductor(s) are who I think they are they would be well placed to carry out the above.
If's But's and Maybe's...
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If's But's and Maybe's...
I’d love to see the faces of the officers of OG as they receive another ‘theory’ from a member of the public.
Do these people really think that a handful of officers have the time or resources available to investigate every crackpot theory ?
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I think I know who did it and where Madeleine is. But I'm not telling you because you would all laugh.
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Not Miss Scarlet, in the ballroom, with the candlestick oh shoorlie not!
"I’d love to see the faces of the officers of OG as they receive another ‘theory’ from a member of the public."
Do these people really think that a handful of officers have the time or resources available to investigate every crackpot theory ?
The public purse is deep in this instance, and unlike the parents, perhaps they have been told to leave no stone unturned even if that stone is called Ben Nevis!
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Not Miss Scarlet, in the ballroom, with the candlestick oh shoorlie not!
"I’d love to see the faces of the officers of OG as they receive another ‘theory’ from a member of the public."
Do these people really think that a handful of officers have the time or resources available to investigate every crackpot theory ?
The public purse is deep in this instance, and unlike the parents, perhaps they have been told to leave no stone unturned even if that stone is called Ben Nevis!
I have never put my Theory to any Law Enforcement Agency. But my neighbour thinks I am on the ball.
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I have never put my Theory to any Law Enforcement Agency. But my neighbour thinks I am on the ball.
I thought you were joking about a theory. You are not joking? you do have one?
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I’d love to see the faces of the officers of OG as they receive another ‘theory’ from a member of the public.
Do these people really think that a handful of officers have the time or resources available to investigate every crackpot theory ?
MAYBE the crackpot theories are the source of the new leads they keep talking about?
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I think I know who did it and where Madeleine is. But I'm not telling you because you would all laugh.
Don't pre-judge us Eleanor.
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Don't pre-judge us Eleanor.
You mean they wouldn't laugh, poo hoo it and generally mock me?
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You mean they wouldn't laugh, poo hoo it and generally mock me?
I don't see any evidence of that happening.
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I don't see any evidence of that happening.
You should read back to when I have mentioned this before.
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You mean they wouldn't laugh, poo hoo it and generally mock me?
How do you think they saw & targeted her, Eleanor?
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How do you think they saw & targeted her, Eleanor?
I believe that they followed the original trail, and possibly through Phone Pings.
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I believe that they followed the original trail, and possibly through Phone Pings.
Sorry, I meant how did they target her before arrival at 5A?
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Sorry, I meant how did they target her before arrival at 5A?
Someone wanted a girl child of that age. They were probably watching out for one, which of course was bound to happen eventually.
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Someone wanted a girl child of that age. They were probably watching out for one, which of course was bound to happen eventually.
And the parents providing an easy way in to the apartment was simply coincidence? The girl they wanted and easy access....really ? Come on Eleanor you’re much too intelligent to believe that scenario.
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And the parents providing an easy way in to the apartment was simply coincidence? The girl they wanted and easy access....really ? Come on Eleanor you’re much too intelligent to believe that scenario.
There are more ways than one to skin a cat.
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There are more ways than one to skin a cat.
Explain please ?
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Someone wanted a girl child of that age. They were probably watching out for one, which of course was bound to happen eventually.
I wanted to laugh at the theory- but I couldn't, here is why.
I do go along with a theory that a childless couple or a woman who had recently losts a child snatches a child- It has happened many times in many coutries. Very plausable, However, I just cannot apply this to madelines disapparance for two main reasons;
1. it would have been easier and better to have taken one of the twins- they had a choice; boy or girl. young enough to groom into another culture with a another language.
2, Madeleine beinbg described as very articulate and smart for her age would have been a no.no as she would give herself away to somone at some point.
Ok I am intruiged.
Why that paricular age, and what would be her use to these people?
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I wanted to laugh at the theory- but I couldn't, here is why.
I do go along with a theory that a childless couple or a woman who had recently losts a child snatches a child- It has happened many times in many coutries. Very plausable, However, I just cannot apply this to madelines disapparance for two main reasons;
1. it would have been easier and better to have taken one of the twins- they had a choice; boy or girl. young enough to groom into another culture with a another language.
2, Madeleine beinbg described as very articulate and smart for her age would have been a no.no as she would give herself away to somone at some point.
Ok I am intruiged.
Why that paricular age, and what would be her use to these people?
Perhaps they already had a passport for a child that they had lost.
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Perhaps they already had a passport for a child that they had lost.
Okay fairynuff- reasonable explanation.
I will disagree it being on the veru likely scenario due to my number 2 reeason given above:
"Madeleine beinbg described as very articulate and smart for her age would have been a no.no as she would give herself away to somone at some point."
There is also the question of how was the plan executed i.e time, place .entry to the apartment, why did MBM not scream when being removedetc.
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Okay fairynuff- reasonable explanation.
I will disagree it being on the veru likely scenario due to my number 2 reeason given above:
"Madeleine beinbg described as very articulate and smart for her age would have been a no.no as she would give herself away to somone at some point."
There is also the question of how was the plan executed i.e time, place .entry to the apartment, why did MBM not scream when being removedetc.
My Theory involves some one else actually abducting Madeleine.
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My Theory involves some one else actually abducting Madeleine.
Oh Ok.
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Okay fairynuff- reasonable explanation.
I will disagree it being on the veru likely scenario due to my number 2 reeason given above:
"Madeleine beinbg described as very articulate and smart for her age would have been a no.no as she would give herself away to somone at some point."
There is also the question of how was the plan executed i.e time, place .entry to the apartment, why did MBM not scream when being removed etc.
Its a bit like mothering on other babies to farm animals. The idea is there and the farmer has to use tricks (methods) to create the bonding between the mother and her new offspring.
If she was outside and got knocked down by a car, there might be no screaming for she was possibly now unconscious.
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My Theory involves some one else actually abducting Madeleine.
"Someone else" other than who? It is a given by the thread title "Would It Be Possible For Madeleine To Live A 'Normal' Life Elsewhere?". Is it possible the parents made it "possible For Madeleine To Live A 'Normal' Life Elsewhere?".
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"Someone else" other than who? It is a given by the thread title "Would It Be Possible For Madeleine To Live A 'Normal' Life Elsewhere?". Is it possible the parents made it "possible For Madeleine To Live A 'Normal' Life Elsewhere?".
Someone else other than the people Madeleine is now with. Abducted to order, in fact.
It could be possible for Madeleine to have forgotten who she is under circumstances of love and nurture.
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Its a bit like mothering on other babies to farm animals. The idea is there and the farmer has to use tricks (methods) to create the bonding between the mother and her new offspring.
If she was outside and got knocked down by a car, there might be no screaming for she was possibly now unconscious.
That is also a very likely theory.
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That is also a very likely theory.
Winning Lotto isn't likely but it still happens.
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Winning Lotto isn't likely but it still happens.
I don't have a theory. I look at others to see if any are valid and have taken place in a way they describe. Some are on the 'very likey' list some are interesting but not much to back up some are just plain stupid not even worth bothering about but do provide a giggle at lunchtime.
Woke and Wandered is very likely. being abducted from the roadside or accidentaly knocked down are both worth while theories. IMO.
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I don't have a theory. I look at others to see if any are valid and have taken place in a way they describe. Some are on the 'very likey' list some are interesting but not much to back up some are just plain stupid not even worth bothering about but do provide a giggle at lunchtime.
Woke and Wandered is very likely. being abducted from the roadside or accidentaly knocked down are both worth while theories. IMO.
Abducted from the apartment is simpler and more likely imo.
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"It's not the despair, I can take the despair. It's the hope I can't stand."
Listen to Rowley and lately Dick,there doesn't seem much,imo any trail is long gone cold.
Gone cold ?
And yet they are still persuing it and investing big money in it.
I wonder why that would be ?
Perhaps they are getting there but keeping their progress hidden? And not spitting it all out publicly like Amaral and co did. Ever thought of that ?
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I don't have a theory. I look at others to see if any are valid and have taken place in a way they describe. Some are on the 'very likey' list some are interesting but not much to back up some are just plain stupid not even worth bothering about but do provide a giggle at lunchtime.
Woke and Wandered is very likely. being abducted from the roadside or accidentaly knocked down are both worth while theories. IMO.
What I find is that those three events could be part of the same sequence. "Woke and Wandered, then accidentally knocked down, then abducted from the roadside, could easily be parts of a chain of events.
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What I find is that those three events could be part of the same sequence. "Woke and Wandered, then accidentally knocked down, then abducted from the roadside, could easily be parts of a chain of events.
I first considered 'woke and wondered' and then involved in some collision with a vehicle but no one heard the sound of brakes or other such noise and no evidence on road of any car swerving/braking and/or evidence of a body involved in any sort of impact.
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I first considered 'woke and wondered' and then involved in some collision with a vehicle but no one heard the sound of brakes or other such noise and no evidence on road of any car swerving/braking and/or evidence of a body involved in any sort of impact.
There were times there was no one around on the street. It might have been a bit of a thud that was drowned out by the laughter coming from the Tapas crowd.
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There were times there was no one around on the street. It might have been a bit of a thud that was drowned out by the laughter coming from the Tapas crowd.
Yes I appreciate that but if a collision was such that the driver/passenger(s) panicked for whatever reason(s) and drove off with a badly injured/deceased MM then I would expect to see some evidence? Eg tyre marks, part of torn pj's left behind etc.
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There were times there was no one around on the street. It might have been a bit of a thud that was drowned out by the laughter coming from the Tapas crowd.
The Moyes sat on their balcony for some period of time.
The Balu and Berry party sat on the balcony of 606 for the evening, until the balloon went up.
The two people who left 605 did not see such an incident.
Jez Wilkins did not.
The T6 noted nothing odd on their checks, until Kate raised the alarm.
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The Moyes sat on their balcony for some period of time.
The Balu and Berry party sat on the balcony of 606 for the evening, until the balloon went up.
The two people who left 605 did not see such an incident.
Jez Wilkins did not.
The T6 noted nothing odd on their checks, until Kate raised the alarm.
In my theory the time could well be 9:55 PM Where were those people at that particular time?
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In my theory the time could well be 9:55 PM Where were those people at that particular time?
If it's your theory and you are nailing it to 9.55PM, it's up to you to do your own donkeywork!
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“it would have been easier and better to have taken one of the twins- they had a choice; boy or girl. young enough to groom into another culture with a another language.” (Miss Taken Identity)
The quote above refers: In my opinion, whoever took Madeleine, took her instead of one of the twins because s/he acted on behalf of someone else and acted according to certain set parameters i.e. toilet-trained, more independent than a two-year old, the preference being a girl of about 4 years old.
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“it would have been easier and better to have taken one of the twins- they had a choice; boy or girl. young enough to groom into another culture with a another language.” (Miss Taken Identity)
The quote above refers: In my opinion, whoever took Madeleine, took her instead of one of the twins because s/he acted on behalf of someone else and acted according to certain set parameters i.e. toilet-trained, more independent than a two-year old, the preference being a girl of about 4 years old.
My theory explains fully why MM was taken as opposed to 1 of the twins.
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My theory explains fully why MM was taken as opposed to 1 of the twins.
Don't know why you keep mentioning your theory when you are not prepared to divulge it.
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Don't know why you keep mentioning your theory when you are not prepared to divulge it.
Would you prefer me not to mention it again?
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Would you prefer me not to mention it again?
Yes 8((()*/
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We'll hear all about it when SY crack the case in the coming weeks.
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We'll hear all about it when SY crack the case in the coming weeks.
No, that will be down to my theory which I sent them yesterday.
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No, that will be down to my theory which I sent them yesterday.
Hang about. I haven't sent them mine yet.
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Hang about. I haven't sent them mine yet.
Get in before it is too late.
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Get in before it is too late.
I will, I will. When I've got a minute away from watching you lot.
PS. Is it Libel to name names to The Police? I wouldn't want to get sued.
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I will, I will. When I've got a minute away from watching you lot.
PS. Is it Libel to name names to The Police? I wouldn't want to get sued.
Just make sure you say repeatedly "this is a theory".
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Just make sure you say repeatedly "this is a theory".
Ah, of course. With a lot of IMOs thrown in.
This could take some time.
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Ah, of course. With a lot of IMOs thrown in.
This could take some time.
Try your best not to use IMO as opinions are just instantly dismissed as mere opinion.
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Try your best not to use IMO as opinions are just instantly dismissed as mere opinion.
Thanks for the advice. Are you sure about this.
PS. Is it all of this IMOs why nobody takes a blind bit of notice of anybody posting on here?
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Thanks for the advice. Are you sure about this.
PS. Is it all of this IMOs why nobody takes a blind bit of notice of anybody posting on here?
IMO it is. Try using "In my theory" and see the response change.
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IMO it is. Try using "In my theory" and see the response change.
Blimin 'eck, Rob. I think you might have cracked it.
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Blimin 'eck, Rob. I think you might have cracked it.
You didn't have to tell me that. It could go to my head.
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If it's your theory and you are nailing it to 9.55PM, it's up to you to do your own donkeywork!
OK recapping:
SIL says: "The Moyes sat on their balcony for some period of time.
The Balu and Berry party sat on the balcony of 606 for the evening, until the balloon went up.
The two people who left 605 did not see such an incident.
Jez Wilkins did not.
The T6 noted nothing odd on their checks, until Kate raised the alarm."
Can any of those be confirmed?
In my theory the time could well be 9:55 PM Where were those people at that particular time? Considering anyone is capable of lying that makes it virtually impossible.
But I did see this report about the Moyes:
"That night the couple, from Middlewich in Cheshire, had retried to bed at around 10pm after spending the evening on their balcony – which overlooked the tapas bar where the McCanns and their friends were dining out.
Paul Moyes said they were woken up an hour-and-a-half later by banging on their door - by a friend of the McCanns "saying that a little girl had been abducted".
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/maddie-mccann-kate-gerry-screams-10350597
That to me suggests the Moyes had cleared the balcony well prior to 10:00 PM.
"Paul and Susan described how they were sat on the balcony sharing a few glasses of whiskey and "didn't see a soul" between 9pm and 9:30pm."
https://closeronline.co.uk/real-life/news/witnesses-kate-gerry-mccann-madeleine-holiday-paul-susan-moyes-jenny-murat/
I tend to agree they only stayed there to 9:30 PM.
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Were the Moyes considered suspects?
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3429641/mystery-couple-seen-clambering-over-wall-and-fence-directly-behind-apartment-where-madeleine-mccann-was-sleeping-on-night-she-vanished/
Is this really saying the police told the Moyes' they had seen someone clambering over the fence. Not the other way around with the witnesses telling the police what they saw.
"The news was revealed by British police to key witnesses as they questioned them in 2015 over Maddie's disappearance."
It was revealed by the police to the witnesses. What is going on?
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"Paul, 68, said: "The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend."
"Paul, 68, said officers asked them about the potentially explosive information two years ago - after swabbing both he and his wife for their DNA."
"Mr Moyes, 68, said: "The McCanns were in bits, he was crying on the shoulder of a friend. She was screaming 'the f***ing b******s have taken her'.""
"Paul Moyes, 47, from Cheshire and his wife Susan, who own a holiday apartment in the same block as the McCanns, said they were woken at 11.30pm by a knock on the door and asked to join in a search for a missing girl."
https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2007/may/05/world.sandralaville
The Guardian seems to have the age of Paul Moyes incorrect.
Same younger age repeated here too!
"Paul Moyes, 47, from Cheshire, and his wife Susan own a holiday apartment in the same black as the McCanns. He said: "There was a knock on the door at about 11.30 from a hotel guest telling us a girl was missing and asking us to help in the search."
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/maddy-was-abducted-and-we-have-a-suspect-in-mind-6579837.html
The wording is so similar I'd assume one copied the other.
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If I may: I have mentioned the case of Zephany Nurse in South Africa. She was found at 17 and she’s now 22 years old. Today, the High Court has heard her application to reveal her real name and identity. She is Miche Solomon. She has written a book, soon to be published.
Extract from her book:
‘I saw my mommy walking to the court with a hoodie on and a scarf covering her face. She looked almost like someone that was poor. People were cursing at her . . . and that broke me. This is the woman who was there for me every day, making lunch for me and my friends when we came from school, and now here she is on television being called a criminal.’
The kidnapping of baby Zephany Nurse from the cot beside her mother’s hospital bed made headline news. Desperate pleas from her parents to return her safely went unanswered. There was no trace of the baby. For seventeen years, on her birthday, the Nurses lit candles and hoped and prayed.
Living not far away from the Nurses, 17-year-old Miché Solomon had just started Matric. She had a boyfriend. She had devoted parents. She was thinking about the upcoming school dance and the dress her mother was going to make for her. She had no idea that a new girl at her school, who bore an uncanny resemblance to her, and a DNA test would shake her world to its foundations.”
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Sounds to me as it things would have been better left as they were.
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Sounds to me as it things would have been better left as they were.
It might seem like it, but it really won't do.
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Why not? Who has benefited from this little drama ?
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Why not? Who has benefited from this little drama ?
I despair sometimes, I really do.
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I despair sometimes, I really do.
You don't really ?{)(**
Anyways seems everyone is sending in a theory. My Groomed and taken by Peter Pan theory is still a goer.
My only problem is I have no evidence, and I do not know where never land is- apart from beyond the stars.
I will write to google beyond earth see if they have anything in picture form. Or if a croc does turn up with a tic toc hicup then!!!!!!
Anthro- snip "‘I saw my mommy walking to the court with a hoodie on and a scarf covering her face. She looked almost like someone that was poor. People were cursing at her . . . and that broke me. This is the woman who was there for me every day, making lunch for me and my friends when we came from school, and now here she is on television being called a criminal.’"
This is a very valid point one which I tried to introduce to the forum a few times. they won't have it.
I fancy if MBM was abducted for a loving family she would have read all what the McCanns did pre and post her going missing and I am convinced she would not be impressed- only my opinion.
If it were me I would sue them!