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Alleged Miscarriages of Justice => Jeremy Bamber and the callous murder of his father, mother, sister and twin nephews. Case effectively CLOSED by CCRC on basis of NO APPEAL REFERRAL. => Topic started by: tbl on September 08, 2016, 12:05:55 PM
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Does anyone have any idea why JB called his local police station rather than 999? It seems a bizarre thing to do. If he had received a call from Neville and thought there was a genuine emergency he would have called 999. If he was half asleep/was wondering if it was a dream/was confused as to what had been said he would have driven to the farm to see what was happening. I can't understand why he would have called the local station. Any thoughts?
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Does anyone have any idea why JB called his local police station rather than 999? It seems a bizarre thing to do. If he had received a call from Neville and thought there was a genuine emergency he would have called 999. If he was half asleep/was wondering if it was a dream/was confused as to what had been said he would have driven to the farm to see what was happening. I can't understand why he would have called the local station. Any thoughts?
Various excuses have been opined in relation to the question you ask. At the end of the day, only Jeremy could supply an answer to this question but I don't think he was ever asked nor has he ever voluntered a reason as far as I recall.
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Does anyone have any idea why JB called his local police station rather than 999? It seems a bizarre thing to do. If he had received a call from Neville and thought there was a genuine emergency he would have called 999. If he was half asleep/was wondering if it was a dream/was confused as to what had been said he would have driven to the farm to see what was happening. I can't understand why he would have called the local station. Any thoughts?
Why would JB think NB's call amounted to a "genuine emergency" to the point he felt the need to call 999?
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Various excuses have been opined in relation to the question you ask. At the end of the day, only Jeremy could supply an answer to this question but I don't think he was ever asked nor has he ever voluntered a reason as far as I recall.
From the 2002 hearing:
29. When asked why he had not dialled 999, the appellant said he did not think it would make any difference to the time it would have taken for the police to arrive.
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Why would JB think NB's call amounted to a "genuine emergency" to the point he felt the need to call 999?
He wanted the police to arrive though, as you've posted in his quote from the 2002 hearing.
From the 2002 hearing:
29. When asked why he had not dialled 999, the appellant said he did not think it would make any difference to the time it would have taken for the police to arrive.
It may not have taken then longer to arrive. But it certainly took him longer looking through the phone book for the local number than it would to have dialled 999.
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He wanted the police to arrive though, as you've posted in his quote from the 2002 hearing.
It may not have taken then longer to arrive. But it certainly took him longer looking through the phone book for the local number than it would to have dialled 999.
According to JB he received a call from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". End of communication. JB claims he attempted to call back and was unable to communicate further with NB. Assuming this is true what course of action would you expect JB to take and why?
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According to JB he received a call from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". End of communication. JB claims he attempted to call back and was unable to communicate further with NB. Assuming this is true what course of action would you expect JB to take and why?
You missed out the preceding bit - "Please come over...". In other words - "Get your a$$ over here, asap!"
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
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You missed out the preceding bit - "Please come over...". In other words - "Get your a$$ over here, asap!"
https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call (https://soundcloud.com/user9618130/jeremy-bamber-fathers-alleged-phone-call)
If NB called JB I don't believe he used the words "Please come over" for the following reasons which were discussed extensively in a previous thread:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
I take no notice of anything JB has said or done in recent years for the following reasons:
- Whether he realises it or not and whether others realise it or not I believe his long incarceration must to some extent have taken its toll on his mental state.
- Many of those that have been close to him over the years have filled his head with complete rubbish eg Mike, GDS, CT and emotionally unstable women. Worse still the CT cause him enormous damage and embarrassment. They seem to take the view any publicity is good publicity. Hence the bake off, graveside reading and now claims of a suicide letter.
- Prisoners are vulnerable in the sense that they only have very limited resources and are largely cut off from the outside world.
- Through my limited letter contact with him I would describe his understanding of his case as average to poor. He doesn't seem that switched on eg his explanation about how a silencer works, which was at one time on the OS, was wrong. There was no advantage to him in his explanation being wrong. In fact had it been correct it would have provided some good plus points.
- As far as I'm aware he hasn't had any one reliable and sensible source of support during his long incarceration. Eg Stefan Kiszko had his mother, Sally Clark had her father and husband, David Bain had Joe Karam for most of the time.
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Good points Holly, add to that being ripped off by unscrupulous "experts" such as this graphologist that is supposed to be confirming if this "suicide note" is in Sheila's handwriting, and charging £1500+ for the privilege! Desperate prisoners are vulnerable in this respect and sitting ducks for charlatans.
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From the 2002 hearing:
29. When asked why he had not dialled 999, the appellant said he did not think it would make any difference to the time it would have taken for the police to arrive.
Thanx Holly, fair enough response I suppose had there been an actual telephone call from Nevill.
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According to JB he received a call from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". End of communication. JB claims he attempted to call back and was unable to communicate further with NB. Assuming this is true what course of action would you expect JB to take and why?
Had this actually taken place I would have expected Jeremy to get over there pronto and not mess about with supposed calls to the police which would have taken ages. All he said he knew was what you quoted above, "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun", there was no mention of it being discharged inappropriately. What we had in essence was a domestic within a family albeit with the potential to go badly awry. It was not then a police matter and Nevill would not have wanted a police presence so why involve them? It just doesn't add up!
Had Nevill said Sheila's got the gun and she has shot me then that would have been an entirely different matter and one which would require police and ambulance attendance.
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My natural reaction I think would have been to go straight over, and if necessary, call the police from the farmhouse if the situation warranted it. Mind you, who among us could accurately predict what we would do, if those circumstances arose!
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My natural reaction I think would have been to go straight over, and if necessary, call the police from the farmhouse if the situation warranted it. Mind you, who among us could accurately predict what we would do, if those circumstances arose!
The key issue was at what stage was the disturbance. Given that no shots had been fired the common sense thing was for Jeremy to go over to the farmhouse and attempt to calm things down. Jeremy would know that his father was well able for Sheila and that she in turn respected him greatly thus involving police was not logical. In fact Nevill would have been furious had armed cops arrived on his doorstep if all Sheila had done was wave the empty rifle about.
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Had this actually taken place I would have expected Jeremy to get over there pronto and not mess about with supposed calls to the police which would have taken ages. All he said he knew was what you quoted above, "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun", there was no mention of it being discharged inappropriately. What we had in essence was a domestic within a family albeit with the potential to go badly awry. It was not then a police matter and Nevill would not have wanted a police presence so why involve them? It just doesn't add up!
Had Nevill said Sheila's got the gun and she has shot me then that would have been an entirely different matter and one which would require police and ambulance attendance.
And yet at the cottage only a few hours later, Jeremy was adamant that his dad had already been wounded when he phoned. This according to CC...
(http://i.imgur.com/7WOS8Oq.jpg?2)
The facial wounds would have prevented him "blurting out" anything at all quite clearly.
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And yet at the cottage only a few hours later, Jeremy was adamant that his dad had already been wounded when he phoned. This according to CC...
(http://i.imgur.com/7WOS8Oq.jpg?2)
The facial wounds would have prevented him "blurting out" anything at all quite clearly.
Not to mention the complete absence of blood on or around the only serviceable telephone at White House farm that morning.
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Good points Holly, add to that being ripped off by unscrupulous "experts" such as this graphologist that is supposed to be confirming if this "suicide note" is in Sheila's handwriting, and charging £1500+ for the privilege! Desperate prisoners are vulnerable in this respect and sitting ducks for charlatans.
hi pauline.i dont think jb will be spending his own money it will come from donations.
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According to JB he received a call from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". End of communication. JB claims he attempted to call back and was unable to communicate further with NB. Assuming this is true what course of action would you expect JB to take and why?
come on hols what would you have done probably the same as every one on here.we were taught it as kids .'in an emergency Dial 999' if he was told what he claims than theres only one course of action 8(0(*
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come on hols what would you have done probably the same as every one on here.we were taught it as kids .'in an emergency Dial 999' if he was told what he claims than theres only one course of action 8(0(*
Difficulty was, his story changed depending on who he was telling.
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Difficulty was, his story changed depending on who he was telling.
yes an interesting point was made by adam.that both jb and neville picked the same police station to call which was the 5th furthest away from them.so there were 4 other stations closer to them but they both ignored this and chose the 5 furthest &%+((£
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And yet at the cottage only a few hours later, Jeremy was adamant that his dad had already been wounded when he phoned. This according to CC...
(http://i.imgur.com/7WOS8Oq.jpg?2)
The facial wounds would have prevented him "blurting out" anything at all quite clearly.
I believe CC is the only person ever to say JB said he thought NB sounded injured.
We've previously discussed:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=6525.msg261188#msg261188
Noone else mentions this eg PC West, PS Bewes, PC Myalls, PC Saxby, any member of the raid team or indeed JB in his WS's or interviews.
AE was specifically asked if she heard JB say NB sounded injured and she said no:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3170.0;attach=3162
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Had this actually taken place I would have expected Jeremy to get over there pronto and not mess about with supposed calls to the police which would have taken ages. All he said he knew was what you quoted above, "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun", there was no mention of it being discharged inappropriately. What we had in essence was a domestic within a family albeit with the potential to go badly awry. It was not then a police matter and Nevill would not have wanted a police presence so why involve them? It just doesn't add up!
Had Nevill said Sheila's got the gun and she has shot me then that would have been an entirely different matter and one which would require police and ambulance attendance.
But "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun" doesn't tell anyone much. If I received such a call I think I would probably do what JB claims he did which was attempt to call NB back and ask what he wanted me to do eg take something over, go over, call someone etc.
If NB used the words 'Please come over' then IMO that is different as there's a clear instruction as to what NB wanted JB to do.
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But "Sheilas gone crazy, she's got the gun" doesn't tell anyone much. If I received such a call I think I would probably do what JB claims he did which was attempt to call NB back and ask what he wanted me to do eg take something over, go over, call someone etc.
If NB used the words 'Please come over' then IMO that is different as there's a clear instruction as to what NB wanted JB to do.
I agree, so would I BUT, when I couldn't get through, I'd have either called 999 or gone over there - or both.
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I agree, so would I BUT, when I couldn't get through, I'd have either called 999 or gone over there - or both.
But then I think it comes down to making a judgement call/decision which will vary from person to person.
I would probably have driven over kept a safe distance and then made a decision to approach WHF or use the tel box at the bottom of the lane, or wherever it was that JB called JM from, to call the police. The fact JB didn't do this doesn't make me make me suspicious at all.
JB was no doubt mindful of:
- NB and June wanting to keep SC's mental illness private
- NB not wanting to get the authorities involved
- NB's low regard for the local police
- NB being a magistrate and not wanting it getting round his mentally ill daughter was "going crazy" and had access to a gun
- Firearms and ammo may not have been kept as they should have been
- SC had previous 'episodes' which were non-violent
- Dr Ferguson told CC SC was not a risk to herself and others which was probably also relayed to the Bambers and JB in turn
Had JB have called 999 I think the prosecution and others would simply say he wanted the police to find the victims as quickly as possible.
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But then I think it comes down to making a judgement call/decision which will vary from person to person.
I would probably have driven over kept a safe distance and then made a decision to approach WHF or use the tel box at the bottom of the lane, or wherever it was that JB called JM from, to call the police. The fact JB didn't do this doesn't make me make me suspicious at all.
JB was no doubt mindful of:
- NB and June wanting to keep SC's mental illness private
- NB not wanting to get the authorities involved
- NB's low regard for the local police
- NB being a magistrate and not wanting it getting round his mentally ill daughter was "going crazy" and had access to a gun
- Firearms and ammo may not have been kept as they should have been
- SC had previous 'episodes' which were non-violent
- Dr Ferguson told CC SC was not a risk to herself and others which was probably also relayed to the Bambers and JB in turn
Had JB have called 999 I think the prosecution and others would simply say he wanted the police to find the victims as quickly as possible.
Except that he did decide to call the police and quickly told them Sheila wasn't just suffering mental health issues, but that 'she was a nutter'. He told them about the firearms and about the gun that he'd left out. There doesn't seem any attempt to try and 'keep her illness quite' - quite the opposite.
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Except that he did decide to call the police and quickly told them Sheila wasn't just suffering mental health issues, but that 'she was a nutter'. He told them about the firearms and about the gun that he'd left out. There doesn't seem any attempt to try and 'keep her illness quite' - quite the opposite.
Yes once he made the decision to call the police he had to relay the message he claims he received from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". This would naturally result in a dialogue and the police asking questions about SC and the availability of firearms.
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Yes once he made the decision to call the police he had to relay the message he claims he received from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". This would naturally result in a dialogue and the police asking questions about SC and the availability of firearms.
Yes, he decided it was important enough to call the police but chose to look for the station number and not dial 999.
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Yes, he decided it was important enough to call the police but chose to look for the station number and not dial 999.
Yes I think he was trying to get the balance right believing the situation was potentially serious enough to warrant police involvement but trying to avoid sirens blaring and lights flashing on the basis it might be a manageable domestic.
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Yes I think he was trying to get the balance right believing the situation was potentially serious enough to warrant police involvement but trying to avoid sirens blaring and lights flashing on the basis it might be a manageable domestic.
That wouldn't happen at that time of the morning or in a seige situation. Lights and sirens are to warn other traffic to move out of the way.
According to AE, when Jeremy was asked why he didn't go to WHF, he said "I didn't want to be shot too". However, at the point of making that decision, he 'supposedly' didn't know anyone had been shot.
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there were 4 police stations closer to both jb and neviile .than the one they both chose to phone.i dont know what the odds of that happening are
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That wouldn't happen at that time of the morning or in a seige situation. Lights and sirens are to warn other traffic to move out of the way.
According to AE, when Jeremy was asked why he didn't go to WHF, he said "I didn't want to be shot too". However, at the point of making that decision, he 'supposedly' didn't know anyone had been shot.
Oh well I wouldn't have known that would JB? I would think 999 was all guns blazing and a call to the local cops would be nothing more than a drive-by akin to an officer from Heartbeat on his bike. The following from Surrey police states its down to the discretion of the driver whether they dispaly emergency signals or not.
http://www.surrey.police.uk/foi-disclosure-logs/police-car-responding-to-an-emergency-call/
Do you have AE's WS where she states JB feared he would be shot at TOO if he turned up at WHF?
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there were 4 police stations closer to both jb and neviile .than the one they both chose to phone.i dont know what the odds of that happening are
I very much doubt NB called EP.
NB was a magistrate and would have much greater knowledge of police operations in Essex than Joe Average. He may well have mentioned things in passing to JB therefore JB may well have been aware that local stations were closed to the public at circa 3am.
During 2013 I visited the area. On the Fri night we arrived in Maldon about 9pm and by accident happened to park outside the police station. It was obvious then the place was closed to the public. It's situated bang in the town centre on a little island so to speak with a busy pub opposite which JB may well have frequented.
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Oh well I wouldn't have known that would JB? I would think 999 was all guns blazing and a call to the local cops would be nothing more than a drive-by akin to an officer from Heartbeat on his bike. The following from Surrey police states its down to the discretion of the driver whether they dispaly emergency signals or not.
http://www.surrey.police.uk/foi-disclosure-logs/police-car-responding-to-an-emergency-call/
Do you have AE's WS where she states JB feared he would be shot at TOO if he turned up at WHF?
It doesn't need to be all guns blazing at those hours, who would they be waring? It certainly wouldn't be a good idea to spook someone in a seige situation. People have asked why the police didn't go straight in, the answer is because that's not policy in those situations.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.msg30060#msg30060 - page 27
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I very much doubt NB called EP.
NB was a magistrate and would have much greater knowledge of police operations in Essex than Joe Average. He may well have mentioned things in passing to JB therefore JB may well have been aware that local stations were closed to the public at circa 3am.
During 2013 I visited the area. On the Fri night we arrived in Maldon about 9pm and by accident happened to park outside the police station. It was obvious then the place was closed to the public. It's situated bang in the town centre on a little island so to speak with a busy pub opposite which JB may well have frequented.
in the closed stations would they leave someone there to answer the phone.holly are saying they both picked the same station because they knew the closer station would have been shut
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It doesn't need to be all guns blazing at those hours, who would they be waring? It certainly wouldn't be a good idea to spook someone in a seige situation. People have asked why the police didn't go straight in, the answer is because that's not policy in those situations.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=1053.msg30060#msg30060 - page 27
I just think 999 conjures up an emergency and calling the local station seems more low key but that's just my perception.
The other day I was on a fairly busy road en route to get my car washed when I swerved to miss a spade bang in the middle of the single carriage way I was travelling on. I thought when I get to car wash I will phone police. I was thinking I would have to find number first then toyed with the idea of calling 999 and then back to looking up local station. Anyway car wash was too busy so headed back towards gym which took me along the same road. Spade gone so I didn't have to bother about calling anyone. That's a true story.
AE said JB didn't go to WHF because he might be shot at too! Think he must be guilty.
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in the closed stations would they leave someone there to answer the phone.holly are saying they both picked the same station because they knew the closer station would have been shut
I dont think there's any evidence JB or NB phoned Witham?
JB phoned Chelmsford and they put a call out to a patrol car in the area.
Chelmsford were able to make contact with Witham via a radio link not accessible to public.
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I just think 999 conjures up an emergency and calling the local station seems more low key but that's just my perception.
The other day I was on a fairly busy road en route to get my car washed when I swerved to miss a spade bang in the middle of the single carriage way I was travelling on. I thought when I get to car wash I will phone police. I was thinking I would have to find number first then toyed with the idea of calling 999 and then back to looking up local station. Anyway car wash was too busy so headed back towards gym which took me along the same road. Spade gone so I didn't have to bother about calling anyone. That's a true story.
AE said JB didn't go to WHF because he might be shot at too! Think he must be guilty.
It is more low key and can understand your reluctance to call in your spade scenario - however, crazy with a gun isn't a spade scenarios.
He is guilty.
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It is more low key and can understand your reluctance to call in your spade scenario - however, crazy with a gun isn't a spade scenarios.
He is guilty.
oh i agree caroline
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It is more low key and can understand your reluctance to call in your spade scenario - however, crazy with a gun isn't a spade scenarios.
He is guilty.
Both scenarios had the potential to cause injury and fatalities ie "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" and the spade in the middle of the road.
I think the case is far more complex than arriving at conclusions based on the tel calls unless I've missed something.
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Both scenarios had the potential to cause injury and fatalities ie "Sheilas gone crazy shes got the gun" and the spade in the middle of the road.
I think the case is far more complex than arriving at conclusions based on the tel calls unless I've missed something.
i think you can say alot by the calls .if nb did not call jb than that only leaves jb as the killer
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i think you can say alot by the calls .if nb did not call jb than that only leaves jb as the killer
Yes I agree if it could be proved NB didn't call JB then its game over for JB but we can't prove one way or the other so we have to move on if we want to uncover the truth.
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Yes I agree if it could be proved NB didn't call JB then its game over for JB but we can't prove one way or the other so we have to move on if we want to uncover the truth.
yes thats true
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Does anyone have any idea why JB called his local police station rather than 999? It seems a bizarre thing to do. If he had received a call from Neville and thought there was a genuine emergency he would have called 999. If he was half asleep/was wondering if it was a dream/was confused as to what had been said he would have driven to the farm to see what was happening. I can't understand why he would have called the local station. Any thoughts?
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Although 999 was first introduced in 1937, It was only in operation with a 10 mile radius from central London. Then it was adopted in other major cities. It was not until 1976 it became nationwide including rural areas. So its very possible that June and Neville were accustom to the idea of calling the local police like you call anyone else. and didn't like things changing, and their children followed their advice on it.
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Why Bamber would dial 999
He knew the number.
He had the phone in his hand.
He instantly tried to call Neville back but didn't get through. So believed it was something serious.
He didn't know the numbers of any individual police station.
He knew a 999 call is answered straight away.
He knew a 999 call is manned 24/7 and always answered.
He knew a 999 call would deal with his query correctly.
He didn't know which individual police stations would be open.
He did not know which individual police stations would answer straight away.
He decided the situation was serious enough to contact the police. So dialling 999 is the obvious thing to do.
Bamber himself said ringing an individual police station 'would make no difference' to how quickly the police arrived. So there is no advantage in dialling an individual police station. Only a big disadvantage, in having to waste a lot of time looking up a number in the Yellow pages. Twice.
A 999 call would direct the call to the correct station straight away.
He said he phoned Witham police station but got no answer. So would then dial 999, rather than waste more time looking for another number that may not answer.
Dialling 999 would be an instant reaction after getting Neville's call.
He wanted things resolved quickly as he tried to call back Neville after the phone went dead. Being unsuccessful doing this, and with the phone in his hand, he will then do the next best thing. Which was to dial 999.
He did not know if an individual police station would have the correct staff available to assist him.
He was half asleep, so would not be analysing things too much. The action which required the least effort and thinking about was ringing the 999.
He wouldn't know if the Yellow pages would have correct numbers.
Everyone is taught from a young age to dial 999. In an emergency.
No one is taught from a young age to look for police stations numbers in an emergency.
Bamber said he spoke to Julie after the police. So cannot claim Julie advised him to phone a police station directly.
Neville had rang him and said 'come quickly'. If Bamber was not going to go there straight away, he would want to meet the police quickly.
There were no examples of famous real life or fictional crimes which had someone dialling an individual police station.
A combination of some or all of the above.
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Bamber told two policemen at WHF that he had phoned Witham but got no response.
Bamber then phoned Chelmsford police who phoned Witham and got a response straight away.
Bamber then testified he didn't phone Witham.
More strange goings on.
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Why Bamber would dial 999
He knew the number.
He had the phone in his hand.
He instantly tried to call Neville back but didn't get through. So believed it was something serious.
He didn't know the numbers of any individual police station.
He knew a 999 call is answered straight away.
He knew a 999 call is manned 24/7 and always answered.
He knew a 999 call would deal with his query correctly.
He didn't know which individual police stations would be open.
He did not know which individual police stations would answer straight away.
He decided the situation was serious enough to contact the police. So dialling 999 is the obvious thing to do.
Bamber himself said ringing an individual police station 'would make no difference' to how quickly the police arrived. So there is no advantage in dialling in dialling an individual police station. Only a big disadvantage, in having to waste a lot of time looking up numbers in the Yellow pages.
A 999 call would direct the call to the correct station straight away.
He said he phoned Witham police station but got no answer. So would then dial 999, rather than waste more time looking for another number that may not answer.
Dialling 999 would be an instant reaction after getting Neville's call.
He wanted things resolved quickly as he tried to call back Neville after the phone went dead. Being unsuccessful doing this, and with the phone in his hand, he will then do the next best thing. Which was to dial 999.
He did not know if an individual police station would have the correct staff available to assist him.
He was half asleep, so would not be analysing things too much. The action which required the least effort was ringing the 999.
He wouldn't know if the Yellow pages would have correct numbers.
Everyone is taught from a young age to dial 999. In an emergency.
No one is taught from a young age to look for police stations numbers in an emergency.
Bamber said he spoke to Julie after the police. So cannot claim Julie advised him to phone a police station directly.
Neville had rang him and said 'come quickly'. If Bamber was not going to go there straight away, he would want to meet the police quickly.
There were no examples of famous real life or fictional crimes which had someone dialling an individual police station.
A combination of the above.
Ah, I see. How dare I find a reasonable explanation for Jeremy's seemingly odd decisions to which the guilters grasp their straws at. Bury it with a list of made up nonsense
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Bamber told two policemen at WHF that he had phoned Witham but got no response.
Bamber then phoned Chelmsford police who phoned Witham and got a response straight away.
Bamber then testified he didn't phone Witham.
More strange goings on.
I didn't know that Adam, are you sure?
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I didn't know that Adam, are you sure?
Yes it's in the judges summing up. In Wilkes's book.
The judge said Bamber should know whether he phoned Witham or not.
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Yes it's in the judges summing up. In Wilkes's book.
The judge said Bamber should know whether he phoned Witham or not.
I agree with the judge, it's not the sort of detail one forgets.
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I agree with the judge, it's not the sort of detail one forgets.
he does suffer from selective memory john,
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5934.msg215920#msg215920
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http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5934.msg215920#msg215920
thanks for the link adam 8((()*/
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Yes it's in the judges summing up. In Wilkes's book.
The judge said Bamber should know whether he phoned Witham or not.
Its not in the Judges summing at all.
Read through it yourself. I just skimmed over it, If I missed it show me. This is not the first time you have made dubious claims about what the Judge has said Adam.
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Its not in the Judges summing at all.
Read through it yourself. I just skimmed over it, If I missed it show me. This is not the first time you have made dubious claims about what the Judge has said Adam.
Wilkes has a whole chapter on the judges summing up. Why would he put it in his unbiased and 5 star rated book if it wasn't true ? EP, Bamber or the judge could just publically deny it.
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Can we keep the debate civil please and not use emoticons, gifs, images and any other material for the purpose of goading. Thank you.
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We have a partial summing up transcript in the Jeremy Bamber documents library most of which relates to the silencer and blood evidence. Does anyone have the rest of it and in particular any part which might relate to Witham?
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We have a partial summing up transcript in the Jeremy Bamber documents library most of which relates to the silencer and blood evidence. Does anyone have the rest of it and in particular any part which might relate to Witham?
Thanks. Be good to see it all.
Not sure how David can determine I'm making dubious claims about the judges summing up. The summing up lasted over two days and only a small amount of it is available online.
I'm quoting from Wilkes's book which has a chapter/16 pages on his summing up.
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Judges Summing Up
Did the jury believe Julie or Jeremy ?
Did Jeremy mention Matthew Mcdonald as a cover up ?
Both Jeremy & Julie had committed recent crimes. That does not mean either lied in court in this trial. Julie had paid back the money she stole.
Jeremy trusted Julie to help him commit a crime at the caravan site. Did he trust her enough to confide in the murders ?
The jury should ignore the media.
Every witness in the trial is equal.
Did the mysterious phone call from Neville happen ?
Could Mugford have lied under oath for nearly two days ?
Did Mugford's testimony have a ring of truth ?
The judge said Bamber should know whether he phoned Witham police station or not.
The prosecution claim to have an overwhelming case even without the silencer evidence. The judge told the jury to disregard this comment & review all evidence.
Red paint on silencer shows it was on during kitchen fight. Jeremy said the gun was left that night without a silencer on. Why would Sheila put a silencer on the gun & did she know how to do this ?
Why would Sheila take the silencer off the gun & put it away, rather than throw it on the floor ?
There was overwhelming evidence it was Sheila's blood on the silencer.
Police mistakes not relevant. Part of the reason for the mistakes early on was because they had been lead in that direction.
Jeremy had a financial motive to commit the crime.
Jeremy said he had used the found hacksaw to gain access to WHF after the murders to get documentation. Was this correct or had he gained entry on the murder night ?
The bicycle had dried mud on the wheels according to Robert Boutflour.
Jeremy said his relationship with Julie was coming to a close in August. Why was the bike brought to the cottage just before the murders ?
Both the defence & prosecution agree the silencer was fitted for most of the time the crime was taking place.
Mugford was questioned at lenght & in detail. She stuck to her story under cross examination. The defence complained about her crying. But that could be a sign of weakness the defence could have exploited. Were the defence really complaining because she did not change her story ?
If Mugford was called at 3:12 by Jeremy & the police st 3:26 it badly undermines Jeremys version of events.
If Neville called at 3.26, he had no face wounds. The police arrived at WHF at 3.48 & never heard any shots. Sheila must have fought Neville, perhaps shot other people, washed, unscrewed & put the silencer away & then shot herself. In 22 minutes.
Colin Caffell testified that Jeremy said Neville sounded wounded on the phone. However in court Jeremy said he thought it might have just sounded terrified. The judge said Jeremy should remember.
Dr Ferguson had testified that Sheila had never shown physical violence to other people. Others testified she was attached to her father & loving towards her sons.
Dr Bradley testified that people with no history of violence can become violent.
The judge mentioned the supper when fostering was mentioned. Jeremy said Sheila was non responsive. Therefore this cannot be used as a reason why Sheila could have committed the crimes.
The judge said it was 'very very' unlikely Sheila could overcome Neville in a fight & not have any marks. Jeremy was not examined for a long time & would have had time to clean up on the night.
The judge asked could Sheila load a gun ?
The judge said there is no doubt the silencer was on the rifle in the kitchen fight. It is not credible that Sheila would then put it back in the gun cupboard.
The judge said the blood found in the silencer was specific to Sheila. There was a remote possibility of it being a mixture of Neville & Junes.
The crime was committed by Sheila or Jeremy. There was no possible third party.
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excellent post adam 8((()*/
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Judges Summing Up
Did the jury believe Julie or Jeremy ?
Did Jeremy mention Matthew Mcdonald as a cover up ?
Both Jeremy & Julie had committed recent crimes. That does not mean either lied in court in this trial. Julie had paid back the money she stole.
Jeremy trusted Julie to help him commit a crime at the caravan site. Did he trust her enough to confide in the murders ?
The jury should ignore the media.
Every witness in the trial is equal.
Did the mysterious phone call from Neville happen ?
Could Mugford have lied under oath for nearly two days ?
Did Mugford's testimony have a ring of truth ?
The judge said Bamber should know whether he phoned Witham police station or not.
The prosecution claim to have an overwhelming case even without the silencer evidence. The judge told the jury to disregard this comment & review all evidence.
Red paint on silencer shows it was on during kitchen fight. Jeremy said the gun was left that night without a silencer on. Why would Sheila put a silencer on the gun & did she know how to do this ?
Why would Sheila take the silencer off the gun & put it away, rather than throw it on the floor ?
There was overwhelming evidence it was Sheila's blood on the silencer.
Police mistakes not relevant. Part of the reason for the mistakes early on was because they had been lead in that direction.
Jeremy had a financial motive to commit the crime.
Jeremy said he had used the found hacksaw to gain access to WHF after the murders to get documentation. Was this correct or had he gained entry on the murder night ?
The bicycle had dried mud on the wheels according to Robert Boutflour.
Jeremy said his relationship with Julie was coming to a close in August. Why was the bike brought to the cottage just before the murders ?
Both the defence & prosecution agree the silencer was fitted for most of the time the crime was taking place.
Mugford was questioned at lenght & in detail. She stuck to her story under cross examination. The defence complained about her crying. But that could be a sign of weakness the defence could have exploited. Were the defence really complaining because she did not change her story ?
If Mugford was called at 3:12 by Jeremy & the police st 3:26 it badly undermines Jeremys version of events.
If Neville called at 3.26, he had no face wounds. The police arrived at WHF at 3.48 & never heard any shots. Sheila must have fought Neville, perhaps shot other people, washed, unscrewed & put the silencer away & then shot herself. In 22 minutes.
Colin Caffell testified that Jeremy said Neville sounded wounded on the phone. However in court Jeremy said he thought it might have just sounded terrified. The judge said Jeremy should remember.
Dr Ferguson had testified that Sheila had never shown physical violence to other people. Others testified she was attached to her father & loving towards her sons.
Dr Bradley testified that people with no history of violence can become violent.
The judge mentioned the supper when fostering was mentioned. Jeremy said Sheila was non responsive. Therefore this cannot be used as a reason why Sheila could have committed the crimes.
The judge said it was 'very very' unlikely Sheila could overcome Neville in a fight & not have any marks. Jeremy was not examined for a long time & would have had time to clean up on the night.
The judge asked could Sheila load a gun ?
The judge said there is no doubt the silencer was on the rifle in the kitchen fight. It is not credible that Sheila would then put it back in the gun cupboard.
The judge said the blood found in the silencer was specific to Sheila. There was a remote possibility of it being a mixture of Neville & Junes.
The crime was committed by Sheila or Jeremy. There was no possible third party.
This is not a transcript Adam. It's just another list you have made up
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This is not a transcript Adam. It's just another list you have made up
Never said it was a transcript. I said it is taken from Wilkes's chapter/16 pages on the judges summing up.
Have you got Wilkes's unbiased 5 star book ? Thought not.
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I think Lomax takes pride of place on David's bookcase. Is it in that?
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I chose to read an unbiased book when first looking at the case.
Not sure why Bamber appealed on the basis of the judges summing up.
A judge can only sum up on the evidence presented at trial by the defence and prosection. Which may favour the defence or prosecution.
All the judges points are correct, and unbiased. Some points favour Bamber such as Dr Bradley's statement that people with no violent history can become violent.
I suppose with the case fresh in everyone's mind there was nothing to lose in making a quickie appeal. And as the relatives have said, he has 'nothing better to do'.
But a bit of a waste of the courts time and the tax payers money.
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I chose to read an unbiased book when first looking at the case.
Not sure why Bamber appealed on the basis of the judges summing up.
A judge can only sum up on the evidence presented at trial by the defence and prosection. Which may favour the defence or prosecution.
All the judges points are correct, and unbiased. Some points favour Bamber such as Dr Bradley's statement that people with no violent history can become violent.
I suppose with the case fresh in everyone's mind there was nothing to lose in making a quickie appeal. And as the relatives have said, he has 'nothing better to do'.
But a bit of a waste of the courts time and the tax payers money.
I would like to see the full summing up. The part we have here is certainly biased against JB. The judge even refers to the lost hair. Yes the lost hair that the relatives didn't identify but the police did. Was this before or after DS Jones placed it in the inner of an empty kitchen roll? In any event it was lost before it reached the lab for forensic analysis. The judge had no right whatsoever to make reference to this let alone imply it attached to the silencer as a result of the "violent struggle" in the kitchen.
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I would like to see the full summing up. The part we have here is certainly biased against JB. The judge even refers to the lost hair. Yes the lost hair that the relatives didn't identify but the police did. Was this before or after DS Jones placed it in the inner of an empty kitchen roll? In any event it was lost before it reached the lab for forensic analysis. The judge had no right whatsoever to make reference to this let alone imply it attached to the silencer as a result of the "violent struggle" in the kitchen.
What did the judge say about the lost hair ?
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What did the judge say about the lost hair ?
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=273.0;attach=895
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Thanks.
It is saying the hair could well be Neville's from blows to the head. The 2002 appeal report supports this saying Neville received lacerations to the head. Neville had a lot of available hair to transfer to the silencer.
It also says blood could have transferred to the silencer from these blows.
Both support the silencer being on the weapon during the massacre.
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Thanks.
It is saying the hair could well be Neville's from blows to the head. The 2002 appeal report supports this saying Neville received lacerations to the head. Neville had a lot of available hair to transfer to the silencer.
It also says blood could have transferred to the silencer from these blows.
Both support the silencer being on the weapon during the massacre.
The hair was supposedly about 1/4 of an inch in length and grey in colour. The relatives didn't observe it when they claim they examined it around the table at Oak Farm. The silencer was then transferred to AE's blanket box for safe keeping until DS Jones collected it and put it in the inner of a kitchen roll with tape at both ends. He then sat drinking whisky with PE until late into the evening. Exactly where in his car he placed the kitchen roll and silencer I've no idea but the conditions don't sound exactly forensic!
I doubt the hair ever existed it was just thrown in to embellish the whole blood/silencer 'evidence'.
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The hair was supposedly about 1/4 of an inch in length and grey in colour. The relatives didn't observe it when they claim they examined it around the table at Oak Farm. The silencer was then transferred to AE's blanket box for safe keeping until DS Jones collected it and put it in the inner of a kitchen roll with tape at both ends. He then sat drinking whisky with PE until late into the evening. Exactly where in his car he placed the kitchen roll and silencer I've no idea but the conditions don't sound exactly forensic!
I doubt the hair ever existed it was just thrown in to embellish the whole blood/silencer 'evidence'.
It was probably stuck down to the metal with undiluted washing-up liquid that JB used to wipe blood off the moderator, so therefore unnoticeable at first. If you had your way, Stan Jones and Peter Eaton were as drunk as skunks when they parted!
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It was probably stuck down to the metal with undiluted washing-up liquid that JB used to wipe blood off the moderator, so therefore unnoticeable at first. If you had your way, Stan Jones and Peter Eaton were as drunk as skunks when they parted!
I wonder if anyone has any idea of what a colourless -no such colour as 'grey'- hair measuring approximately 1/4 inch looks like. I've seen longer eyebrows and lashes. Being colourless, I'm astounded that it was seen at all..........and they're saying it was transported in an empty kitchen roll holder?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! If it ever existed, it's probably still there.
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It was probably stuck down to the metal with undiluted washing-up liquid that JB used to wipe blood off the moderator, so therefore unnoticeable at first. If you had your way, Stan Jones and Peter Eaton were as drunk as skunks when they parted!
Forensic examination of the silencer didn't reveal any washing-up liquid. This is your theory based on DB's appearance on one of the docu/dramas (Killing mum and dad I think?) stating the silencer felt sticky to the touch. The relatives didn't identify the hair when they examined it. It was something the police identified.
I don't care whether DS Jones had one pub measure or the whole bottle imo it doesn't sound very professional. It's not just the drinking aspect but allowing the boundaries to blur between witness and police officer. This wasn't a one off either. He had a drink at JB's on 7th Aug and again with DI Miller on 14th Aug when they called at the Eatons to discuss the paint and scratches. Today this would be enough to have the case thrown out and the pair would face disciplinary action.
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Forensic examination of the silencer didn't reveal any washing-up liquid. This is your theory based on DB's appearance on one of the docu/dramas (Killing mum and dad I think?) stating the silencer felt sticky to the touch. The relatives didn't identify the hair when they examined it. It was something the police identified.
It must have been sticky with something because DB was so definite...
https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=29m46s (https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=29m46s)
What else could it be... any ideas?
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It must have been sticky with something because DB was so definite...
https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=29m46s (https://youtu.be/bcTvqLk0MWU?t=29m46s)
What else could it be... any ideas?
DB being so definite the silencer was sticky with something doesn't imo make it so.
Going by the vid it seems to me DB felt he needed a reason to take a closer look at the silencer to identify what he describes as a small spot of blood hence the stickiness.
DB describes JB as a very good actor. I would be interested to hear what an expert in body language makes of DB's body language, hand gestures, eye movement, facial expressions and tone of voice when he describes the stickiness.
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DB being so definite the silencer was sticky with something doesn't imo make it so.
Going by the vid it seems to me DB felt he needed a reason to take a closer look at the silencer to identify what he describes as a small spot of blood hence the stickiness.
DB describes JB as a very good actor. I would be interested to hear what an expert in body language makes of DB's body language, hand gestures, eye movement, facial expressions and tone of voice when he describes the stickiness.
DB was telling the truth about the sticky moderator and the extravagant jollies of a WMF... Doubting Thomasina!
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DB was telling the truth about the sticky moderator and the extravagant jollies of a WMF... Doubting Thomasina!
If it was sticky to the touch as DB claims it rather begs the question why the silencer didn't contain any fingerprints in this sticky residue?
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If it was sticky to the touch as DB claims it rather begs the question why the silencer didn't contain any fingerprints in this sticky residue?
The lab might have powdered first and found nothing, then removed the stickyness with some type of solvent before superglue fuming.
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The lab might have powdered first and found nothing, then removed the stickyness with some type of solvent before superglue fuming.
As previously pointed out AE was very big on detail. She doesn't make any reference to it being sticky. Neither does DI Miller in CTSB.
There's no record of the lab identifying any sticky residue let alone removing any. GH's examination record notes traces of blood and paint only.
Perhaps DS Jones used the silencer to mix some water into his whisky 8(0(*
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As previously pointed out AE was very big on detail. She doesn't make any reference to it being sticky. Neither does DI Miller in CTSB.
There's no record of the lab identifying any sticky residue let alone removing any. GH's examination record notes traces of blood and paint only.
Perhaps DS Jones used the silencer to mix some water into his whisky 8(0(*
AE didn't handle it.
The stickyness might have dried up by the time it was examined. 8((()*/
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AE didn't handle it.
The stickyness might have dried up by the time it was examined. 8((()*/
Yes but she was present when DB found it at WHF and subsequently examined it at Oak Farm so I'm surprised she didn't mention this sticky residue her brother claims he felt.
I recently posted the silencer went in a blanket box at Oak Farm but on rereading it was the firearms that went into the blanket box and the silencer went into her wardrobe. Who placed the silencer into her wardrobe?
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Yes but she was present when DB found it at WHF and subsequently examined it at Oak Farm so I'm surprised she didn't mention this sticky residue her brother claims he felt.
I recently posted the silencer went in a blanket box at Oak Farm but on rereading it was the firearms that went into the blanket box and the silencer went into her wardrobe. Who placed the silencer into her wardrobe?
Here's AE's COLP interview where she states she was sure she put the silencer in her wardrobe
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=3171.0;attach=3566
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AE didn't handle it.
The stickyness might have dried up by the time it was examined. 8((()*/
DB claims he found the silencer on 10th Aug. This was some 2.5 days after the prosecution claim JB removed it having murdered his family. If it was sticky, as claimed by DB, why, when, how did it suddenly become non-sticky?
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DB claims he found the silencer on 10th Aug. This was some 2.5 days after the prosecution claim JB removed it having murdered his family. If it was sticky, as claimed by DB, why, when, how did it suddenly become non-sticky?
And why wait 20 years to reveal it was sticky?
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I chose to read an unbiased book when first looking at the case.
Not sure why Bamber appealed on the basis of the judges summing up.
A judge can only sum up on the evidence presented at trial by the defence and prosection. Which may favour the defence or prosecution.
All the judges points are correct, and unbiased. Some points favour Bamber such as Dr Bradley's statement that people with no violent history can become violent.
I suppose with the case fresh in everyone's mind there was nothing to lose in making a quickie appeal. And as the relatives have said, he has 'nothing better to do'.
But a bit of a waste of the courts time and the tax payers money.
Blood relations was written in 1994. Its maybe reliable in snippets but overall it's outdated, much has happened since then.
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And why wait 20 years to reveal it was sticky?
Perhaps realising the situation could indeed turn out to be quite sticky 8)-)))
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Blood relations was written in 1994. Its maybe reliable in snippets but overall it's outdated, much has happened since then.
The technical explanations about the blood/silencer are good.
There's also some interesting big picture stuff about the FSS in general.
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I've been reading a bit in the papers about the case of Helen Nicoll. She suffered mental health problems. Family relationships seem strained between her and her husband and children. Her husband found her hanged and I believe initially was suspected of murdering her. He was asked why he didn't dial 999 when finding his wife. He cancelled a game of golf and phoned family. He said it was obvious she was dead and would have been disrespectful to attempt to revive her.
It seems HN's siblings believe there's something amiss.
Deja vu maybe.
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Blood relations was written in 1994. Its maybe reliable in snippets but overall it's outdated, much has happened since then.
One thing that can't change is what the judge said in his summing up. Which is what my recent posts were about.
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One thing that can't change is what the judge said in his summing up. Which is what my recent posts were about.
If JB's conviction is overturned should the trial judge, Sir Maurice Drake, have his knighthood removed posthumously? It would amount to the 2nd high profile MoJ he presided over.
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Blood relations was written in 1994. Its maybe reliable in snippets but overall it's outdated, much has happened since then.
What has happened since 1994 in resect of JB's case? A dedicated forum 8)-))) The OS and CT 8)-))). Bake-off 8)-))). Mike's video 8)-))) Your forensic breakthrough 8)-))). My circa 7k posts over 3 forums 8)-))) Having a lady from Merseyside championing his cause 8)-)))
Actually you're right much has happened since 1994.
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If JB's conviction is overturned should the trial judge, Sir Maurice Drake, have his knighthood removed posthumously? It would amount to the 2nd high profile MoJ he presided over.
I don't think there is much chance of either happening.
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According to JB he received a call from NB: "Sheilas gone crazy, shes got the gun". End of communication. JB claims he attempted to call back and was unable to communicate further with NB. Assuming this is true what course of action would you expect JB to take and why?
Better still, why would someone who is witnessing this as it unfolds call a unarmed relative ( what could this person do exactly), why does this person not call 999 immedietly then call the relative? Am I missing something?
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Better still, why would someone who is witnessing this as it unfolds call a unarmed relative ( what could this person do exactly), why does this person not call 999 immedietly then call the relative? Am I missing something?
Who was witnessing what unfold?
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If JB's conviction is overturned should the trial judge, Sir Maurice Drake, have his knighthood removed posthumously? It would amount to the 2nd high profile MoJ he presided over.
1) Jeremy has as much a chance of having his conviction overturned as Hillary does of taking over for Trump it he died in office. (In case you don't know the order of replacement is vice president, Speaker of the House and then all the various cabinet secretaries starting with the Secretary of State, it would be impossible for Hillary to replace him).
2) Though there is no chance in hell of finding any evidence that could free Jeremy but what about other cases where some new scientific evidence was found that did prove innocence. Did that new evidence mar the judges of such trials? No it has no impact on the judges at all. The judges were not tasked with investigating the case and finding scientific evidence. The parties do such the judge simply presides over the case. A judge is marred when a judge gets the law wrong. When a judge screws up the law and an appeal court reverses on the basis the judge was wrong then you have the judge being marred. The Appeal Courts have already validated his rulings from the legal perspective.
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Who was witnessing what unfold?
Who supposedly used the phone to call Jeremy? Clearly she means Nevill. She is asking why Nevill would call Jeremy instead of taking action himself.
It makes far more sense to grab a shotgun or knife than o call Jeremy and hope that for the 15 minutes it takes for him to arrive that Sheila won't do anything. oreover, why would Jeremy have better luck unarming her than Nevill would?
If Jeremy had some special relationship with her where he was calming to her that would be one thing but the reverse is true. The calming one was Nevill and Jeremy caused angst. Indeed the main episode Jeremy supporters love to use of Sheila not knowing who anyone was for hours and numerous people being unable to calm her down resulted in her instantly recognizing Nevill and becoming calm in his presence. Her doctor said he had a calming presence even and was her rock. So he would have been the one most likely to be able to calm her down and he was already there. He would have no reason to call Jeremy. This is one of several problems with the call claim.
1) How would he get away from Sheila to use the phone
2) Why would he leave his wife and the kids in bed to face Sheila alone
3) Time was of the essence so why would he call someone instead of trying to disarm her himself or to arm himself and then confront her
4) Why would he call Jeremy
5) The evidence establishes the event started with the killer shooting the parents in bed which conflicts with the claim of the phone call to him before any shooting took place.
All of these things are problematic and that is without even considering the evidence that Sheila didn't do it.
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Who supposedly used the phone to call Jeremy? Clearly she means Nevill. She is asking why Nevill would call Jeremy instead of taking action himself.
It makes far more sense to grab a shotgun or knife than o call Jeremy and hope that for the 15 minutes it takes for him to arrive that Sheila won't do anything. oreover, why would Jeremy have better luck unarming her than Nevill would?
If Jeremy had some special relationship with her where he was calming to her that would be one thing but the reverse is true. The calming one was Nevill and Jeremy caused angst. Indeed the main episode Jeremy supporters love to use of Sheila not knowing who anyone was for hours and numerous people being unable to calm her down resulted in her instantly recognizing Nevill and becoming calm in his presence. Her doctor said he had a calming presence even and was her rock. So he would have been the one most likely to be able to calm her down and he was already there. He would have no reason to call Jeremy. This is one of several problems with the call claim.
1) How would he get away from Sheila to use the phone
2) Why would he leave his wife and the kids in bed to face Sheila alone
3) Time was of the essence so why would he call someone instead of trying to disarm her himself or to arm himself and then confront her
4) Why would he call Jeremy
5) The evidence establishes the event started with the killer shooting the parents in bed which conflicts with the claim of the phone call to him before any shooting took place.
All of these things are problematic and that is without even considering the evidence that Sheila didn't do it.
I disagree entirely. It is all subjective. We didn't know the family or understand the dynamics within.
For all we know NB and SC may have been in the lounge or dining room for whatever reasons. SC may have been in possession of the loaded rifle (regardless of whether it was where JB said he left it or someone had put away and she recovered it) and may have reverted to many themes that seem to occur when she was unwell. I am thinking about her behaviour as described by AE, Colin's mother and her boyfriend Freddie. These themes seemed to be persecutory eg the CIA following her and believing God didn't love her based on what June had said. This might have been NB's definition of "SC's going crazy, she's got the gun". On this basis I think it is entirely feasible that NB may have called JB. NB may just have wanted another adult around in case anything went wrong if he tried to take possession of the gun. NB may have thought getting June involved may have made SC worse. Dr Fergsuon said SC thought June was a threat to her. He also confirmed that SC had never referred to JB.
Imo all the physical evidence at the soc points to SC being the perp.
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I disagree entirely. It is all subjective. We didn't know the family or understand the dynamics within.
For all we know NB and SC may have been in the lounge or dining room for whatever reasons. SC may have been in possession of the loaded rifle (regardless of whether it was where JB said he left it or someone had put away and she recovered it) and may have reverted to many themes that seem to occur when she was unwell. I am thinking about her behaviour as described by AE, Colin's mother and her boyfriend Freddie. These themes seemed to be persecutory eg the CIA following her and believing God didn't love her based on what June had said. This might have been NB's definition of "SC's going crazy, she's got the gun". On this basis I think it is entirely feasible that NB may have called JB. NB may just have wanted another adult around in case anything went wrong if he tried to take possession of the gun. NB may have thought getting June involved may have made SC worse. Dr Fergsuon said SC thought June was a threat to her. He also confirmed that SC had never referred to JB.
Imo all the physical evidence at the soc points to SC being the perp.
None of the physical evidence points to Sheila. No victim blood on her, no GSR on her, no injuries other than her own gunshot wounds, evidence that she was shot with the moderator then it was removed and put away and evidence after she was dead the Bible was place din a pool of her blood. This is the only physical evidence and it all clears her as opposed to implicating her.
It is common sense that Nevill would disarm her himself if she did anything not call Jeremy to ask him to come do it.
It is common sense that if he did want extra help he would wake up June not call Jeremy and pray Jeremy could arrive in time.
No matter how much you try to justify Nevill calling Jeremy you can't come up with anything that actually makes any sense. That is before we even take into account Julie's testimony and the evidence proving the event started with the parents being shot in bed which further undermines the notion Nevill called Jeremy before Sheila started shooting.
You decided you want to believe Sheila did it and try justifying your position however you can as opposed to starting out from a neutral position and following the evidence where it leads.
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Henri Van Breda also searched for an emergency number after he alledged his family were attacked by an intruder.
Like Bamber he was eventually and rightly found guilty of murdering his family.
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Henri Van Breda also searched for an emergency number after he alledged his family were attacked by an intruder.
Like Bamber he was eventually and rightly found guilty of murdering his family.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Breda_murders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Breda_murders)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-44359696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-44359696)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Breda_murders (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Van_Breda_murders)
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-44359696 (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-44359696)
There are numerous videos on you tube regarding Henri Van Breda's trial and his recorded telephone call to the emergency services. There's no doubt, like Bamber, he too is a psychopath.
Re psychopaths - This video is worth watching IMO; it's in several parts https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0sEqWlJbEX4
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There are numerous videos on you tube regarding Henri Van Breda's trial and his recorded telephone call to the emergency services. There's no doubt, like Bamber, he too is a psychopath.
Re psychopaths - This video is worth watching IMO; it's in several parts https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=0sEqWlJbEX4
HVB "emergency" call https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TFACTwOL6q4
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HVB "emergency" call https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TFACTwOL6q4
And......
JUST LIKE Bamber, after he'd massacred his family he too phoned his girlfriend!
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HVB "emergency" call https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TFACTwOL6q4 (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=TFACTwOL6q4)
For an emergency he doesn't sound concerned at all! No urgency in his voice!
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For an emergency he doesn't sound concerned at all! No urgency in his voice!
Much like Jeremy Bamber describes NB's "alleged" telephone call and all the other BS he's alleged over the years *&^^&
It turns out the emergency service worker initially thought the telephone call from HVB was a prank, hence why she appears to be dithering around. Plus HVB didn't telephone the emergency services until a few hours after he'd murdered - Not dissimilar to Bamber I imagine.
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https://www.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2018-05-29-commentary--we-know-henri-van-breda-killed-his-family-but-what-made-him-do-it/
It's like reading about Jeremy Bamber
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"You've got to help me. My father has rang me and said "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun." Then the line went dead."
I don't believe a person would decide to look up the number for the local police station after hearing that rather than dial 999. He'd just told you your sister has gone CRAZy and has got a GUN ,followed by the telephone line going DEAD.... it couldn't be any more urgent could it ! ?
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"You've got to help me. My father has rang me and said "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun." Then the line went dead."
I don't believe a person would decide to look up the number for the local police station after hearing that rather than dial 999. He'd just told you your sister has gone CRAZy and has got a GUN ,followed by the telephone line going DEAD.... it couldn't be any more urgent could it ! ?
I agree if NB gave a clear request/instruction it makes no sense but this isn't what JB and others said in their first WS's etc:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
In the absence of a recording we are reliant upon perfect recall which doesn't happen in the real world.
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"You've got to help me. My father has rang me and said "Please come over. Your sister has gone crazy and has got the gun." Then the line went dead."
I don't believe a person would decide to look up the number for the local police station after hearing that rather than dial 999. He'd just told you your sister has gone CRAZy and has got a GUN ,followed by the telephone line going DEAD.... it couldn't be any more urgent could it ! ?
It wasn't local. It was the 5th furthest away police station. But at least it wasn't the sixth.
I know my nearest police station. But not the second furthest.
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It wasn't local. It was the 5th furthest away police station. But at least it wasn't the sixth.
I know my nearest police station. But not the second furthest.
In any emergency I would and have dialed 999 it wouldnt enter my head to phone the local one.
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I agree if NB gave a clear request/instruction it makes no sense but this isn't what JB and others said in their first WS's etc:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?topic=5723.msg202984#msg202984
In the absence of a recording we are reliant upon perfect recall which doesn't happen in the real world.
I was going on what the Court of Appeal Judgement 2002 quotes http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
What did JB say then? I have not read anything to indicate he didnt say that his father has told me Shelia had "gone mad , with the gun" and the line going "dead" ?
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If JB is guilty then he had a choice, either make up the phone call or leave it so that someone else discovered the scene and came to their own conclusion, I wonder why if JB is guilty that he decided to add in a fake phone call and thus insert himself into the investigation at the earliest possible stage?
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If JB is guilty then he had a choice, either make up the phone call or leave it so that someone else discovered the scene and came to their own conclusion, I wonder why if JB is guilty that he decided to add in a fake phone call and thus insert himself into the investigation at the earliest possible stage?
I'll leave you to answer your own question. You may come up with new reasons.
There are lots of reasons which have already been posted. Several times.
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I was going on what the Court of Appeal Judgement 2002 quotes http://www.homepage-link.to/JUSTICE/judgements/Bamber/index.html
What did JB say then? I have not read anything to indicate he didnt say that his father has told me Shelia had "gone mad , with the gun" and the line going "dead" ?
Yes Bamber did tell the police this. What else would he tell them ?
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Yes Bamber did tell the police this. What else wpuld he tell them ?
I don't know, I wasn't the one who queried it
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I'll leave you to answer your own question. You may come up with new reasons.
There are lots of reasons which have already been posted. Several times.
I'm new to the forum and haven't had the time to read all the posts on this case,
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If JB is guilty then he had a choice, either make up the phone call or leave it so that someone else discovered the scene and came to their own conclusion, I wonder why if JB is guilty that he decided to add in a fake phone call and thus insert himself into the investigation at the earliest possible stage?
Because it gives him an alibi - if he is home taking a call from his father, he couldn't have been at the scene killing the family and Nevil's (supposed) last words implicate Sheila.
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I'm new to the forum and haven't had the time to read all the posts on this case,
No probs. The more experienced posters will point you in the right direction. We all have to start somewhere.
8((()*/
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I'm new to the forum and haven't had the time to read all the posts on this case,
Never mind about reading other peoples posts.
Why do you believe Bamber rang the police. Instead of hopeing someone else finds them before he starts work ?
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Never mind about reading other peoples posts.
Why do you believe Bamber rang the police. Instead of hopeing someone else finds them before he starts work ?
In other words Adam you're interested in IndigoJ's opinion?
Can we be make newcomers feel welcome please. Thanks.
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In other words Adam you're interested in IndigoJ's opinion?
Can we be make newcomers feel welcome please. Thanks.
Hopefully IndigoJ will think of some suggestions. As I did. Rather than just asking & waiting for the answers. It is good to think sometimes.
Oh & 44 days after joining, 'welcome'.
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No probs. The more experienced posters will point you in the right direction. We all have to start somewhere.
8((()*/
Like MF with a pea-shooter. 8(8-))
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Hopefully IndigoJ will think of some suggestions. As I did. Rather than just asking & waiting for the answers. It is good to think sometimes.
Oh & 44 days after joining, 'welcome'.
I usually enjoy your sarcasm but it's wearing a bit thin here.
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Like MF with a pea-shooter. 8(8-))
@)(++(* Big difference tho', IndigoJ is not considered an expert testifying in a court of law!
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Because it gives him an alibi - if he is home taking a call from his father, he couldn't have been at the scene killing the family and Nevil's (supposed) last words implicate Sheila.
But if he had left it so that others found them why would he need an alibi? it would look like a murder suicide
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Hopefully IndigoJ will think of some suggestions. As I did. Rather than just asking & waiting for the answers. It is good to think sometimes.
Oh & 44 days after joining, 'welcome'.
I wasn't just asking and waiting for answers, I am thinking, hence the questions ! , this is a discussion forum is it not?
I might have joined 44 days ago but haven't logged in every day , I don't get the time !
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@)(++(* Big difference tho', IndigoJ is not considered an expert testifying in a court of law!
8((()*/
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Never mind about reading other peoples posts.
Why do you believe Bamber rang the police. Instead of hopeing someone else finds them before he starts work ?
Because he wanted to add credence to the story , imo it was a risky move , IF he did it , I don't really understand why he didn't phone 999 , that would have added authenticity to his story, he was back home , no reason why the police couldn't get there as quick as possible.
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But if he had left it so that others found them why would he need an alibi? it would look like a murder suicide
They may have questioned things more and who would have discovered it? It would be Jeremy as he would be first on the scene. If he could convince them of the call - he had it made.
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Because he wanted to add credence to the story , imo it was a risky move , IF he did it , I don't really understand why he didn't phone 999 , that would have added authenticity to his story, he was back home , no reason why the police couldn't get there as quick as possible.
Bamber asked the police to pick him up. A vehicle dispatched from Chelmsford is more likely to do this on the long journey to WHF.
As said, he would be first on the scene in the morning & would have discovered the bodies. Better to spend several hours outside WHF with the police insinuating Sheila & helping create a siege situation. Then when the police enter, Sheila is lying down with a rifle on her.
His tactic worked for a short period.
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Bamber asked the police to pick him up. A vehicle dispatched from Chelmsford is more likely to do this on the long journey to WHF.
As said, he would be first on the scene in the morning & would have discovered the bodies. Better to spend several hours outside WHF with the police insinuating Sheila & helping create a siege situation. Then when the police enter, Sheila is lying down with a rifle on her.
His tactic worked for a short period.
Sion Jenkins and David Bain found family members who they were subsequently found guilty of murdering but have since had their convictions quashed.
If JB was responsible he would have done better to find his victims the following morning and then when interviewed by police lay it on thick about arguments the previous night. Phone JM on eve 6th Aug and tell her about the mother of all arguments instead of 'it's tonight or never'.
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Sion Jenkins and David Bain found family members who they were subsequently found guilty of murdering but have since had their convictions quashed.
If JB was responsible he would have done better to find his victims the following morning and then when interviewed by police lay it on thick about arguments the previous night. Phone JM on eve 6th Aug and tell her about the mother of all arguments instead of 'it's tonight or never'.
I think it may have been about a need to control, and he was clearly in charge from the moment he first spoke to police. The call to Julie was probably about being eager to let her know he'd done/was about to do what he'd planned,
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Sion Jenkins and David Bain found family members who they were subsequently found guilty of murdering but have since had their convictions quashed.
If JB was responsible he would have done better to find his victims the following morning and then when interviewed by police lay it on thick about arguments the previous night. Phone JM on eve 6th Aug and tell her about the mother of all arguments instead of 'it's tonight or never'.
He did lay it thick about discussions the previous night.
I disagree that Bamber was better off leaving the bodies & finding them the following morning. Either way, he didn't.
Bamber can't remember what he said to Julie in that 17 minute conversation. Although he called her.
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But if he had left it so that others found them why would he need an alibi? it would look like a murder suicide
He still would not have an alibi if he found them himself in the morning. All he could say was I was alone asleep all night.
It would still be just two suspects as Bamber had arranged the crime scene in a way which ruled out a burgler.
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If he had waited until the morning, he couldn't have phoned Julie at 3am. That would blow apart his 'I was alone sleeping all night' alibi.
He says he phoned Julie after Nevill phoned him. Nevill's call would not have happened if he had waited until the morning.
Bamber was so hyped up straight after the massacre, I'm not sure he could have refrained from ringing Julie upon his return.
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If he had waited until the morning, he couldn't have phoned Julie at 3am. That would blow apart his 'I was alone sleeping all night' alibi.
He says he phoned Julie after Nevill phoned him. Nevill's call would not have happened if he had waited until the morning.
Bamber was so hyped up straight after the massacre, I'm not sure he could have refrained from ringing Julie upon his return.
Amazing that he was banking his alibi on the one person who he had already confessed the crime to.
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Amazing that he was banking his alibi on the one person who he had already confessed the crime to.
Julie wasn't an alibi. It added no weight to his phone call to the police alibi.
Both calls he can say he made from his cottage. Which was correct.
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Not forgetting that he'd have been hyper. He may have been bursting with a sense of accomplishment and longing to share it. Actually, Julie's reaction could well go down in history as being one of the greatest ego deflaters of all time. "WOW", "OMG", even stunned silence, would all have validated his achievement. Her disinterested "Go back to bed" was likely to have left him feeling very frustrated.
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Not forgetting that he'd have been hyper. He may have been bursting with a sense of accomplishment and longing to share it. Actually, Julie's reaction could well go down in history as being one of the greatest ego deflaters of all time. "WOW", "OMG", even stunned silence, would all have validated his achievement. Her disinterested "Go back to bed" was likely to have left him feeling very frustrated.
... "everything will be alright in the morning, sweetheart!". ?{)(**
... as she slides wearily back into bed, muttering -
"Like hell it will, you've just effing ruined my lovely night's sleep!". ?8)@)-) 8(8-))
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If he had waited until the morning, he couldn't have phoned Julie at 3am. That would blow apart his 'I was alone sleeping all night' alibi.
He says he phoned Julie after Nevill phoned him. Nevill's call would not have happened if he had waited until the morning.
Bamber was so hyped up straight after the massacre, I'm not sure he could have refrained from ringing Julie upon his return.
The permutations of what a 'guilty' JB could have done are numerous.
He could have phoned Len Foakes claiming he received the call from NB and ask him to take a look.
He could have driven to WHF in his car and finding lights on, dogs barking and no NB knock up the Foakes on the basis something was amiss and ask to use their phone to call EP (having left his wallet at home so unable to use the call box down the lane 8(0(*)
Alternatively he could have turned up at WHF in the morning as usual knowing the Foakes would be around and the farmhouse would be locked/bolted from within. He then looks through kitchen window and sees NB/a body.
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He did lay it thick about discussions the previous night.
I disagree that Bamber was better off leaving the bodies & finding them the following morning. Either way, he didn't.
Bamber can't remember what he said to Julie in that 17 minute conversation. Although he called her.
He did lay it thick about discussions the previous night.
I disagree that Bamber was better off leaving the bodies & finding them the following morning. Either way, he didn't.
Bamber can't remember what he said to Julie in that 17 minute conversation. Although he called her.
He said when he left everyone seemed happy. Why not say the atmosphere was very tense and he was glad to get away!? EG "Mum and Dad were telling Sheila she would never have full-time care of the twins again that they would remain with Colin and the only way round it was for Sheila and the twins to move back to Essex where we could all help". Sheila started shaking and shouting and said she would rather die than live round here". Mum said she could not understand the appeal of London and Sheila said she didn't want to end up boring like mum. Mum started crying and unusually for dad he was getting quite short with Sheila. But I never thought it would end like this..."
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The permutations of what a 'guilty' JB could have done are numerous.
He could have phoned Len Foakes claiming he received the call from NB and ask him to take a look.
He could have driven to WHF in his car and finding lights on, dogs barking and no NB knock up the Foakes on the basis something was amiss and ask to use their phone to call EP (having left his wallet at home so unable to use the call box down the lane 8(0(*)
Alternatively he could have turned up at WHF in the morning as usual knowing the Foakes would be around and the farmhouse would be locked/bolted from within. He then looks through kitchen window and sees NB/a body.
Re those dogs which everyone believes would have barked. Some people I know live behind electronic gates. Last week, whilst the were asleep, a vast bronze horse was stolen from their front garden. There were 5 outside dogs and 3 house dogs. None of them barked..................but the robbery was caught on CCTV.
Anyway, back to what Jeremy COULD have done. Given what he said were his father's "panicked" words, off loading to anyone, other than police, probably wouldn't have been appropriate. Doing what he did, when he did it, not only gave him an alibi, it also put him in the 'higher chair'.
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He said when he left everyone seemed happy. Why not say the atmosphere was very tense and he was glad to get away!? EG "Mum and Dad were telling Sheila she would never have full-time care of the twins again that they would remain with Colin and the only way round it was for Sheila and the twins to move back to Essex where we could all help". Sheila started shaking and shouting and said she would rather die than live round here". Mum said she could not understand the appeal of London and Sheila said she didn't want to end up boring like mum. Mum started crying and unusually for dad he was getting quite short with Sheila. But I never thought it would end like this..."
He couldn't afford to over dramatize it. Remember his laissez faire attitude to calling 999. If he'd painted too black a picture of the scene he'd left, questions may have been asked about his delay in calling them.
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Re those dogs which everyone believes would have barked. Some people I know live behind electronic gates. Last week, whilst the were asleep, a vast bronze horse was stolen from their front garden. There were 5 outside dogs and 3 house dogs. None of them barked..................but the robbery was caught on CCTV.
Anyway, back to what Jeremy COULD have done. Given what he said were his father's "panicked" words, off loading to anyone, other than police, probably wouldn't have been appropriate. Doing what he did, when he did it, not only gave him an alibi, it also put him in the 'higher chair'.
But the dogs were barking when JB/EP turned up.
JB would know whether or not the dogs barked when visitors arrived. JB said to EP I can't understand dad not coming out given the dogs are barking.
But what happened didn't give him an alibi. Had it done he would not have spent the last 32/33 years in prison.
He knew the farmhouse was locked/bolted from within whether innocent or guilty
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But the dogs were barking when JB/EP turned up.
JB would know whether or not the dogs barked when visitors arrived. JB said to EP I can't understand dad not coming out given the dogs are barking.
But what happened didn't give him an alibi. Had it done he would not have spent the last 32/33 years in prison.
He knew the farmhouse was locked/bolted from within whether innocent or guilty
We know, NOW, that it didn't give him an alibi, however, but for the fact that someone decided to go a bit deeper that the surface, he'd have been home and dry.
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He couldn't afford to over dramatize it. Remember his laissez faire attitude to calling 999. If he'd painted too black a picture of the scene he'd left, questions may have been asked about his delay in calling them.
His lack of dramatisation is consistent with his laissez faire attitude to calling EP and not calling the emergency number ie when he left he said everyone seemed happy. Why say everyone was happy? That's the dumbest thing ever.
I'm saying if he was guilty then lay it on thick about the mother of all arguments between SC and her parents. He could have even found Len Foakes in the field and discussed some farming related task and slid in something about the 'last trailer' and NB bringing it in if SC hasn't killed him. "She's really going off on one in there but don't say anything to anyone you know what Dad's like about things like that. See you tomorrow Len". Then turns up in the morning knowing he can't get in because farmhouse is locked and bolted from within. Goes off to the Foakes and claims farmhouse is locked and he thinks he can see NB slumped in a chair. He can then let the Foakes lead the way ie 'I'll come over with you to take a look or we had better call the police/ambulance'.
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We know, NOW, that it didn't give him an alibi, however, but for the fact that someone decided to go a bit deeper that the surface, he'd have been home and dry.
I don't agree. An alibi is someone saying he/she was with me eg Mavis Southgate saying Matthew MacDonald was with her on night of murders which completely rules him out (unless of course she lied/committed perjury). JB calling JM is neither here nor there.
If you were looking to carry out such a plan waiting until the morning and roping in the Foakes was arguably a better bet. He could walk there and back no bike. If anything didn't go to plan he had more time to cover his tracks eg he could have waited to see if SC to bled out from her first gsw etc, etc.
He could tell anyone and everyone when he left WHF the mother of all arguments was ensuing. Thus setting the scene.
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His lack of dramatisation is consistent with his laissez faire attitude to calling EP and not calling the emergency number ie when he left he said everyone seemed happy. Why say everyone was happy? That's the dumbest thing ever.
I'm saying if he was guilty then lay it on thick about the mother of all arguments between SC and her parents. He could have even found Len Foakes in the field and discussed some farming related task and slid in something about the 'last trailer' and NB bringing it in if SC hasn't killed him. "She's really going off on one in there but don't say anything to anyone you know what Dad's like about things like that. See you tomorrow Len". Then turns up in the morning knowing he can't get in because farmhouse is locked and bolted from within. Goes off to the Foakes and claims farmhouse is locked and he thinks he can see NB slumped in a chair. He can then let the Foakes lead the way ie 'I'll come over with you to take a look or we had better call the police/ambulance'.
Yeah. On the surface it sounds plausible. But was it plausible for Jeremy? We have Pam's phone call around 10pm. A rather subdued Sheila is just going to bed. June says nothing to Pam to indicate such a violent argument and whilst BW 'sensed' something may have been wrong with Nevill, she doesn't expand. I think Jeremy had worked hard on a script he believed would work -he may previously have rejected other scenario's- and stuck with it.
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I don't agree. An alibi is someone saying he/she was with me eg Mavis Southgate saying Matthew MacDonald was with her on night of murders which completely rules him out (unless of course she lied/committed perjury). JB calling JM is neither here nor there.
If you were looking to carry out such a plan waiting until the morning and roping in the Foakes was arguably a better bet. He could walk there and back no bike. If anything didn't go to plan he had more time to cover his tracks eg he could have waited to see if SC to bled out from her first gsw etc, etc.
He could tell anyone and everyone when he left WHF the mother of all arguments was ensuing. Thus setting the scene.
We must agree to disagree. I WILL agree that phoning Julie is neither here nor there, as, possibly, may be all other points taken individually. By 'farming' out the scenario to LF, he's effectively handing over control. Jeremy was in the driving seat from the moment the door of WHF was closed against the world, until the police broke in. Literally, the stage is his. There may, with hindsight, have been better scripts, but I think he used the one he thought best fitted.
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Yeah. On the surface it sounds plausible. But was it plausible for Jeremy? We have Pam's phone call around 10pm. A rather subdued Sheila is just going to bed. June says nothing to Pam to indicate such a violent argument and whilst BW 'sensed' something may have been wrong with Nevill, she doesn't expand. I think Jeremy had worked hard on a script he believed would work -he may previously have rejected other scenario's- and stuck with it.
Not really because the Bambers were known to keep family matters in-house. Remember CC stating in his book that what surprised him the most about SC's funeral/surviving relatives was how little they knew of SC's illness. He specifically states "even Pamela". NB's niece Jacquie Wood said the same.
If JB carried out the crimes he is accused of, which we are led to believe by JM were a year or so in the making, I think far better plans exist for setting the scene.
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What do you keep saying IF for, when you know very well he did it!!!
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You're not Jeremy Bamber... at least I don't think you are, but he ain't half as clever as you at hatching plans and seeing them through to fruition.
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Not really because the Bambers were known to keep family matters in-house. Remember CC stating in his book that what surprised him the most about SC's funeral/surviving relatives was how little they knew of SC's illness. He specifically states "even Pamela". NB's niece Jacquie Wood said the same.
If JB carried out the crimes he is accused of, which we are led to believe by JM were a year or so in the making, I think far better plans exist for setting the scene.
I'm perfectly certain you could come up with better plans, but you're a mature(ish) woman capable of reasoning. Jeremy probably thought he was too clever to be sussed.
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Not really because the Bambers were known to keep family matters in-house. Remember CC stating in his book that what surprised him the most about SC's funeral/surviving relatives was how little they knew of SC's illness. He specifically states "even Pamela". NB's niece Jacquie Wood said the same.
If JB carried out the crimes he is accused of, which we are led to believe by JM were a year or so in the making, I think far better plans exist for setting the scene.
You have the benefit of hindsight and the luxury or knowing he was caught. All the mistakes he made are now pretty obvious but they wouldn't be to him at the time. There's a pretty accurate old saying by Robbie Burns “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft a-gley.”
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Och aye the nooo! It's a braw bricht nicht tonicht an' she's gone aw tapsalteerie O!
https://youtu.be/2ceQvLX24SE?t=2m49s (https://youtu.be/2ceQvLX24SE?t=2m49s)
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You have the benefit of hindsight and the luxury or knowing he was caught. All the mistakes he made are now pretty obvious but they wouldn't be to him at the time. There's a pretty accurate old saying by Robbie Burns “The best laid schemes o' mice an' men gang aft a-gley.”
I've no reason not to believe he didn't receive the call from NB. IMO whatever he did or didn't do thereafter would be capable of having some story weaved in such a way to implicate him.
What's important is the soc: casings, blood stains, distance of shots, gsw trajectories and wound tracks. These are things the perp was unable to control and show the prosecution case against JB is wrong.
And if he was trying to set the scene 'SC dunnit' why tell officers:
"No one appeared distressed and everyone appeared happy" when he left WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
I accept he was/is a numpty farmer from rural Essex but he wasn't that numptyish! He would say SC was in meltdown mode with mother in tears and father at the end of his tether and he was glad to get away.
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What do you keep saying IF for, when you know very well he did it!!!
In my own mind I'm 100% sure he didn't do it!!!
I say 'if' to enable me to argue the case from a guilty perspective and show he could have gone about things in a multitude of ways.
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I'm perfectly certain you could come up with better plans, but you're a mature(ish) woman capable of reasoning. Jeremy probably thought he was too clever to be sussed.
Mature(ish). TomG on IA thinks my use of emoticons is "infantile" 8)><(
He believes JB innocent but seems to get angry with me as I don't go along with all the normal BS.
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Mature(ish). TomG on IA thinks my use of emoticons is "infantile" 8)><(
He believes JB innocent but seems to get angry with me as I don't go along with all the normal BS.
I seem to recall that he threw his toys out the pram on blue and hasn't been seen since. It may have been after one or two of us objected to his use of "Hoots". Very irritating.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg400738.html#msg400738
Reply 962 is when TomG left the forum. After having a short debate with me.
Similar to Lumonous Wanderer it was all too much for him & he now feels safe at 'Injustice Anywhere'.
TomG's throries were not very good but his posts were readable & he was not agressive. Unlike Luminous Wanderer.
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http://jeremybamberforum.co.uk/index.php/topic,8231.msg400738.html#msg400738
Reply 962 is when TomG left the forum. After having a short debate with me.
Similar to Lumonous Wanderer it was all too much for him & he now feels safe at 'Injustice Anywhere'.
TomG's throries were not very good but his posts were readable & he was not agressive. Unlike Luminous Wanderer.
Thanks. Well he gets very shouty and sweary with me on IA 8)><(
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I've no reason not to believe he didn't receive the call from NB. IMO whatever he did or didn't do thereafter would be capable of having some story weaved in such a way to implicate him.
What's important is the soc: casings, blood stains, distance of shots, gsw trajectories and wound tracks. These are things the perp was unable to control and show the prosecution case against JB is wrong.
And if he was trying to set the scene 'SC dunnit' why tell officers:
"No one appeared distressed and everyone appeared happy" when he left WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
I accept he was/is a numpty farmer from rural Essex but he wasn't that numptyish! He would say SC was in meltdown mode with mother in tears and father at the end of his tether and he was glad to get away.
They don't show the case against Bamber is wrong at all. As a novice, guessing trajectories etc from photographs is not scientific.
Again, you're looking at what Jeremy DID through the eyes of someone who knows he was convicted. We can all say 'well that was dumb' or 'he should have said XYZ' but he didn't. He thought he plan was good, didn't want to over-egg. I suspect he didn't stress the notion of problems earlier in the evening because he didn't want to complicate the matter. Police would ask who said/did what and he would have to remember what he had said. He certainly laid it on thick to officers when he told them Sheila was a nutter - that all he had to do.
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I've no reason not to believe he didn't receive the call from NB. IMO whatever he did or didn't do thereafter would be capable of having some story weaved in such a way to implicate him.
What's important is the soc: casings, blood stains, distance of shots, gsw trajectories and wound tracks. These are things the perp was unable to control and show the prosecution case against JB is wrong.
And if he was trying to set the scene 'SC dunnit' why tell officers:
"No one appeared distressed and everyone appeared happy" when he left WHF:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=5631.0;attach=4566
I accept he was/is a numpty farmer from rural Essex but he wasn't that numptyish! He would say SC was in meltdown mode with mother in tears and father at the end of his tether and he was glad to get away.
Jeez! I'll just bet he make you his bestest BFF yet!! "A numpy farmer from rural Essex" @)(++(* @)(++(*
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They don't show the case against Bamber is wrong at all. As a novice, guessing trajectories etc from photographs is not scientific.
Again, you're looking at what Jeremy DID through the eyes of someone who knows he was convicted. We can all say 'well that was dumb' or 'he should have said XYZ' but he didn't. He thought he plan was good, didn't want to over-egg. I suspect he didn't stress the notion of problems earlier in the evening because he didn't want to complicate the matter. Police would ask who said/did what and he would have to remember what he had said. He certainly laid it on thick to officers when he told them Sheila was a nutter - that all he had to do.
There's no evidence Malcolm Fletcher was an expert by way of qualifications, training or experience at the time of WHF hence he had to fall back on a "small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy" but it didn't prevent him providing unreliable evidence at JB's trial. If that makes him an expert then I'm no novice! I'm not guessing the trajectories from photos. Dr Vanezis confirmed the trajectories of the gsw's NB sustained to his face were approx 20 degrees below the horizontal:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
I'll post up his trial testimony in the relevant thread where he talks about the blood production these wounds generated. Had NB sustained these gsw's in the bedroom he would not have got to the stairs without leaving a trail in the bedroom/landing. Consider the blood trail around the bed from June's gsw's and there's no pathological evidence that these wounds would generate the sort of blood production NB's facial gsw's generated.
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Thanks. Well he gets very shouty and sweary with me on IA 8)><(
All men are the same (except me, of course!)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUL6P6mQAg&feature=youtu.be&t=22s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUL6P6mQAg&feature=youtu.be&t=22s)
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There's no evidence Malcolm Fletcher was an expert by way of qualifications, training or experience at the time of WHF hence he had to fall back on a "small amount of experience with an air rifle as a small boy" but it didn't prevent him providing unreliable evidence at JB's trial. If that makes him an expert then I'm no novice! I'm not guessing the trajectories from photos. Dr Vanezis confirmed the trajectories of the gsw's NB sustained to his face were approx 20 degrees below the horizontal:
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=205.0;attach=724
I'll post up his trial testimony in the relevant thread where he talks about the blood production these wounds generated. Had NB sustained these gsw's in the bedroom he would not have got to the stairs without leaving a trail in the bedroom/landing. Consider the blood trail around the bed from June's gsw's and there's no pathological evidence that these wounds would generate the sort of blood production NB's facial gsw's generated.
He does have a firearms qualification - http://www.csofs.org/Malcolm-Fletcher - I'm not sure why you keep denying his qualifications?
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Thanks. Well he gets very shouty and sweary with me on IA 8)><(
Some posters are not confident enough in their stance to debate with opposites.
TomG & Luminous Wanderer went straight into hiding after short debates with me.
I was confident enough in my 'guilty' stance to join & stay at a forum which at the time was 90% supporters.
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All men are the same (except me, of course!)... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUL6P6mQAg&feature=youtu.be&t=22s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UTUL6P6mQAg&feature=youtu.be&t=22s)
I can't open your link at the moment as I'm on my ancient IPhone that no longer functions as a smart phone as we know them. I can upgrade to an iPhonex at no cost but I've grown emotionally attached to this phone.
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A poster such as David is determined but not confident in his innocent stance. Attempting a quiet stance change & barely discussing his one reason for it.
He posts on Blue instead of here as he's allowed to post his 'gish gash', banners, images, abuse & diagrams. On IA he will never be challenged.
There are some posters on IA I don't recognise. At present none have ventured to Blue or here.
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A poster such as David is determined but not confident in his innocent stance. Attempting a quiet stance change & barely discussing his one reason for it.
He posts on Blue instead of here as he's allowed to post his 'gish gash', banners, images, abuse & diagrams. On IA he will never be challenged.
There are some posters on IA I don't recognise. At present none have ventured to Blue or here.
There is Samson.
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He does have a firearms qualification - http://www.csofs.org/Malcolm-Fletcher - I'm not sure why you keep denying his qualifications?
Yes he has relevant quals now but what did he have at the time of WHF?
His intro to the court was in stark contrast to other experts all of whom talked about degrees, membership of prof bodies etc. MF just talked about 8 years of experience in firearms dept and "small amount of experience of an air rifle as a small boy". I doubt his 8 years in firearms dept qualified him to talk about:
- pathology of gsw's ie volume of blood generated from the various wounds
- drawback mechanism
- reconstruction ie confirm whether or not NB sustained upstairs gsw's on landing
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A poster such as David is determined but not confident in his innocent stance. Attempting a quiet stance change & barely discussing his one reason for it.
He posts on Blue instead of here as he's allowed to post his 'gish gash', banners, images, abuse & diagrams. On IA he will never be challenged.
There are some posters on IA I don't recognise. At present none have ventured to Blue or here.
David is challenged on Blue by Charlie Wilkes and myself.
IA currently has Frankie Lee, TomG, David, Charlie, Samson and myself all of whom believe JB innocent. I'm mostly ignored as I don't agree with their cranky theories.
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Yes he has relevant quals now but what did he have at the time of WHF?
His intro to the court was in stark contrast to other experts all of whom talked about degrees, membership of prof bodies etc. MF just talked about 8 years of experience in firearms dept and "small amount of experience of an air rifle as a small boy". I doubt his 8 years in firearms dept qualified him to talk about:
- pathology of gsw's ie volume of blood generated from the various wounds
- drawback mechanism
- reconstruction ie confirm whether or not NB sustained upstairs gsw's on landing
You dout 6 years of experience qualified him to talk about firearms and yet with no experience of trajectories etc. you determine that they tell you Jeremy is innocent?
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David is challenged on Blue by Charlie Wilkes and myself.
IA currently has Frankie Lee, TomG, David, Charlie, Samson and myself all of whom believe JB innocent. I'm mostly ignored as I don't agree with their cranky theories.
They all out crank each other!
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David is challenged on Blue by Charlie Wilkes and myself.
IA currently has Frankie Lee, TomG, David, Charlie, Samson and myself all of whom believe JB innocent. I'm mostly ignored as I don't agree with their cranky theories.
what's this "blue" and "red" you all keep referring to?
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You dout 6 years of experience qualified him to talk about firearms and yet with no experience of trajectories etc. you determine that they tell you Jeremy is innocent?
He was probably engaged in routine matters eg matching bullets to firearms that sort of thing.
I do have experience of trajectories from O level maths 8)-))). To be honest I figured it out more from playing sport than trajectories learned in maths.
Tbf when MF was cross examined by Ed Lawson for the defence it was his responsibility to have questioned him on how he arrived at NB sustaining his upstairs gsw's in the bedroom v landing instead of simply asking the question and accepting the answer.
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David is challenged on Blue by Charlie Wilkes and myself.
IA currently has Frankie Lee, TomG, David, Charlie, Samson and myself all of whom believe JB innocent. I'm mostly ignored as I don't agree with their cranky theories.
You mean challenged on IA.
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what's this "blue" and "red" you all keep referring to?
Blue is the Jeremy Bamber forum with a blue homepage!
Red is where you're now with a red homepage!
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You mean challenged on IA.
Yes sorry I meant IA.
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what's this "blue" and "red" you all keep referring to?
Blue is the Jeremy Bamber forum with a blue homepage!
Red is where you're now with a red homepage!
... and Indigo is somewhere between Blue and Violet, but no idea where the homepage of the latter is.
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... and Indigo is somewhere between Blue and Violet, but no idea where the homepage of the latter is.
@)(++(*
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Blue is the Jeremy Bamber forum with a blue homepage!
Red is where you're now with a red homepage!
*&(+(+
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https://www.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2018-05-29-commentary--we-know-henri-van-breda-killed-his-family-but-what-made-him-do-it/ (https://www.timeslive.co.za/ideas/2018-05-29-commentary--we-know-henri-van-breda-killed-his-family-but-what-made-him-do-it/)
It's like reading about Jeremy Bamber
Another psycho bites the dust, but there are still two women, his girlfriend and a relative living in denial...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUle4WKnYU0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUle4WKnYU0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdvbeDKppZs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdvbeDKppZs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkGWtszjIqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkGWtszjIqQ)
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Another psycho bites the dust, but there are still two women, his girlfriend and a relative living in denial...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUle4WKnYU0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SUle4WKnYU0)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdvbeDKppZs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdvbeDKppZs)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkGWtszjIqQ (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hkGWtszjIqQ)
This one called his girlfriend first also!
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This one called his girlfriend first also!
And she appears very sweet and gentle but oh-so naive. 8(8-))
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And she appears very sweet and gentle but oh-so naive. 8(8-))
I was thinking odd ball @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* - the aunt too.
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I was thinking odd ball @)(++(* @)(++(* @)(++(* - the aunt too.
She wasn't the one who Van Breda rang though. His first girlfriend had more sense than JM and beauty slept through the call, then ditched him. The woman in the video he met later at cookery class and was lucky she didn't end up in a cow pie.
Oh, and hats off to South Africa's Stan Jones - D.Sgt Marlon Appollis - who wasn't gonna take any bull from a creepy spoilt brat. Doesn't that sound familiar?
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She wasn't the one who Van Breda rang though. His first girlfriend had more sense than JM and beauty slept through the call, then ditched him. The woman in the video he met later at cookery class and was lucky she didn't end up in a cow pie.
Oh, and hats off to South Africa's Stan Jones - D.Sgt Marlon Appollis - who wasn't gonna take any bull from a creepy spoilt brat. Doesn't that sound familiar?
Yes, I know. He was free for a year and a half before beinng arrested for murder. The whole thing sounded familiar.
Then phone call was eerie!